September 16, 2023 • 44 mins
In this podcast episode, we explore the reality many pastors face - the weight of unrealistic expectations and pressures associated with pastoral ministry. A viral article by Reverend Alexander Lang, titled 'Departure: Why I Left the Church,' triggered our discussion.
His article is an honest and raw portrayal of the dilemmas many pastors face. It strikes a chord with many as it highlights the systemic issues within the church that often lead to exhaustion and disillusionment among pastors. You can read it here.
In this episode, we discuss these red flags, including how churches are run as businesses, pastors acting as CEOs and the impact consumerism has on spiritual formation.
We question the resilience narratives that encourage pastors to learn how to best manage their institutions. Rather, we explore why we continue to uphold a system that continues to cause harm to pastors, congregants, and the message of Jesus to the world - and whether leaving it is not a failure but a courageous step toward a different expression of community and call.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrenson.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, good morning Ruth.
How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Great Thanks.
Yeah, I'm doing well, lookingforward to this conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, so we have a good conversation ahead of us
and, in fact, you sent anarticle to me about a week ago
as a point of interest and yousaid this thing's going viral.
That has to do with what we'redoing on the podcast.
You should give it a read, andI did, and since then I've
(01:07):
noticed there have been 350,000downloads of this article.
So you're right, this thing isgoing viral and there's
something about this articlethat caught your attention and
I'm wondering if you could sharea little bit about what that is
and just kind of give us asummary of what's happening here
.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, thanks, kirk.
Yeah, there's.
The article is by ReverendAlexander Lang and it's headed
departure why I left the church.
And I think it's so interestingthat it's gone viral, like we
were joking earlier, that it's alot more than my Instagram
account.
I think it's probably becauseit's hitting, you know, some
(01:45):
nerves and it's a reallyinteresting article and I've
mentioned to you, kirk, that Ithought it could be a really
interesting place to start interms of talking about this.
The past is dilemma, you know,and I think there is a dilemma
here in terms of where pastorsfind themselves, the place they
(02:05):
find themselves in such a timeas this.
So, you know, obviously it'sgot a lot of interest why I left
the church and I thought wecould just talk through it a
little bit and look at some ofthe reasons.
I mean, I read through it and Ijust thought, yeah, you know, I
can understand why he left thechurch.
I was a little alsodisappointed that there was not
(02:30):
so much questioning as to whysome of those things existed, so
it just like had so much inthat article, which I think is a
great start for us to have aconversation.
You know what I find, kirk, andwe'll touch really strongly on
this in this conversation isthat there seems to be this
tension around a pastor'sresponse to some of these system
(02:57):
issues and that's what thisarticle is raising it's system
issues and there is a responsethat is about resilience, about
muscling up, about like, just ifyou can just be better and
better and stronger and delegatemore and go to emotionally
healthy conferences and have abunch of counseling, you should
(03:20):
be fine and you should be ableto do it.
And then there's also thisother side and maybe there's I'm
sure there's people in betweenthis too but then there's this
other side of people who areactually saying hang on a minute
, leaving is okay, it's not afailure.
Actually, maybe right on theother side of this, maybe God is
(03:42):
doing something and maybe it'stime to question the system.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I think that's well phrased, as you're talking.
I was thinking you know, justto give a little bit of context
for our listeners, the articleis called Departure why Left the
Church?
And it's written by, as yousaid, alexander Lang.
He's a pastor in thePresbyterian Church and he has
been pastoring in the samecongregation for about 10 years
(04:10):
and he resigned just a couple ofweeks ago.
And to his congregation he saidwell, just writing sermons and
delivering them really wellevery single week.
I just got just really burntout on that.
But the article he actuallyunpacks a lot more reasons and
and then he concludes thearticle with a statement that he
says stay tuned, I'm going towrite more about this, but I'm
(04:33):
starting a business to connectpeople in relationship with
other people, which I thoughtwas really interesting, because
I am curious if there's not morein that statement that might
look more like the church thanthe church he's actually been
pastoring.
And and then he concludes withsome closing comments and words
(04:57):
in a poem that is very poignantto what he's bringing.
But back to your point, ruth.
There isn't necessarily in thearticle, it's maybe implied but
not stated a question of thesystem, and that's kind of what
I was thinking as I read thearticle is at what point do we
put, like you said, ruth, theonus on the pastor to delegate
(05:22):
more, to be more emotionallyhealthy, to to have rhythms that
are good and sustainable?
At what point do we say, well,wait a minute, hang on here.
At what point do we need torelook at the system and say
that the whole thing is broken,especially when maybe one out of
(05:44):
three finishes in this system?
Well, and wouldn't we call thedefinition of insanity doing the
same thing over and over andexpecting different results?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, and I think you know we and we can talk about
this in a little bit, but Ithink this is coming out.
We saw this in COVID, right?
We saw there's this likeanxiousness over pastoral
ministry, because we started tosee.
I think it's like what is it?
One in three pastors quit.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, one in three finishes well.
So two out of three.
Two out of three don't make itin the system.
Well, 42%, at least in thearticle, have considered
quitting since COVID.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah.
So this is huge.
This is a huge.
This is why the article's goneviral, right, and I remember
during COVID I was I was inpastoral ministry during COVID
and I think it just put thisincredible pressure on something
that was already pressurizedand and some of the things in
the article what it raises areunrealistic expectations.
(06:46):
He's like saying, basically, ifyou want a great career and if
you want a great life, don't bea pastor.
You know it's.
It's like you get crap pay.
That the pay is is really notgoing to enable family life.
It's not going to enablesomeone to have a a healthy
(07:09):
lifestyle if they're raising afamily.
So that's number one.
But then it's not just pay,it's the levels of expectation
for the pastor to.
I think one line in the articleit was like you have a thousand
bosses and the fact of thematter is, is that what it
raises is that basically youhave a lot of consumeristic
(07:34):
behavior from the church thatexpect a lot from this one
person.
So I mean that just cut.
That in itself is just onetopic to unpack.
Like why is that okay?
And not just for the pastor butfor the congregation?
What is that doing for thepastor's role and spiritual
(07:57):
formation in the congregationwhen that dynamic is allowed to
be at play.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think you're really hitting on a very significant
topic that rarely gets talkedabout, at least out loud,
because we start going into somecore issues that are underneath
the stated issues of the localchurch.
I mean, one of the lines thathe said in the article was that
(08:24):
it's expected of him to grow thebusiness.
And if we just take thatstatement for a moment and say
wait a minute, jesus said I willbuild my church, the gates of
hell will not prevail against it, but he didn't put upon his
followers the responsibility forgrowing an organization.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Making disciples yes growing an organization.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now, that's a very American value that we've
imposed onto the mission ofJesus and actually becomes a
mission underneath the missionthat, at least in my opinion,
you serfs the mission of Jesus.
We have to grow thisorganization.
So the effect is that thechurch, at least the
(09:06):
organization, becomes a providerof religious goods and services
rather than an equipper ofspiritually mature adults who
own their unique sense ofcalling in the life and mission
of Jesus.
And then people essentiallybecome consumers of religious
goods and services and Ruth Iwould even dare to say
(09:27):
dependence spiritual dependenceupon the church to provide for
them where they're not beingequipped to provide for
themselves.
And that's just the beginning.
Is this formative dynamic thatwe've created that actually
misshapes and misforms people inthe sense of mission on the
body of Christ?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, I mean, let's just go back to the article.
So this is the list ofunrealistic expectations for the
role of the pastor, and I thinkjust listing them and thinking,
like we were just saying, it'snot just detrimental for the
pastor to uphold all of thesethings, but what it actually
(10:13):
does to the body of Christ interms of creating dependency
from the role of the pastor, Ithink it really is really
questionable.
And so this is what he says.
Putting all this together, youcan see how crazy this is.
This is the role of the pastor.
Firstly, you're a professionalspeaker.
(10:34):
Secondly, you're a CEO, whichis actually real business
language.
It's dated business language,but it's business language which
is a whole, like I think youjust tapped into it, but it's a
whole conversation.
Why on earth we have churcheswith some level, like at least
some level of business model?
(10:55):
Number three he says you're acounselor again questionable.
Number four you're a fundraiser, because suddenly money's
really important, becauseactually if success is more and
better and bigger, then youactually have to grow this thing
and you have to seek outfinances.
Number five he says you're ahuman resources director.
(11:17):
Number six you're a master ofceremonies.
And number seven, believe it ornot.
You're a pillar of virtuebecause you know people are
expecting you to be this perfectrepresentation of God, which I
don't think is.
I think it misses the mark onbeing human and being accessible
(11:37):
as one of God's children, youknow.
I mean, how did we get here?
I think that's my question.
It's like, how did we arrive atthat package?
And obviously you know thisguy's from a certain
denomination, so it's not gonnaapply to every denomination.
(11:57):
But generally speaking, I thinkif pastors are listening to
this podcast, they are probablynodding their head right now a
little bit at least to a few ofthose things of like yep, yep,
yep, you know so.
So is this even realistic ofwhat Jesus has asked us to do in
pastor or ministry?
I think that's a question Ihave.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
I think it's an excellent question because it's
interesting.
As you were listing off thoseexpectations, I thought to
myself are these even in theBible, and how much has the
institutionalization of churchimpacted not only what we do and
why we do it, but how we do it?
I mean, maybe we can make acase for being a professional
(12:41):
speaker, but actually today, ina media-driven you know,
televised, ted Talk world, theexpectation to be exceptional is
very high and we like ourspeaking.
There's obviously a veryimportant role for speaking and
preaching and teaching.
Paul says to Timothy preach theword in season and out.
(13:03):
The scripture says that theywere devoted to the apostles'
teaching.
And yet I also wonder if wehaven't elevated this thing of
speaking so much that it'sbecome Corinthian in nature.
What I mean by that is theCorinthians also had an issue
with speaking that Pauladdressed.
They loved their speaking, theyloved their speakers and they
(13:27):
pitted speakers against oneanother.
So that's just one thing.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And I think that's a really important thing that I'm
sorry to interrupt, but I thinkyou know, because actually we're
not supposed to love thepreachers, we're supposed to
love the teaching.
So really that is about there'san appetite, a hunger in the
body of Christ, I think, tolearn and grow, and part of that
(13:51):
comes through teaching.
But when we look at how peoplegrow even just like if you look
across you know the whole worldof communication of how people
really grow that you know thetakeaway on a Sunday from a
preacher is pretty low.
And so for me I know, like youknow, the times where I've
(14:16):
really been formed and grow andfeel like I've come under or
being part of more not comeunder but being part of teaching
is around a coffee with someonewho I'm having a conversation
with, and so I wonder againwhether where have we got this
from?
How come we've got this oneperson?
They are responsible for all ofthe teaching in the church.
(14:39):
Now, I know there's teamssometimes, but there's a lot of
churches out there who rely onthat one person.
Usually they're a man, whichagain is another issue.
But I think the diversity issue, the how we as human beings
learn through you've talkedabout this before.
Behavior and being part of aconversation is so much more
(15:04):
applicable to spiritualformation than just hearing
preaching, and yet so we've gotthis kind of model that's
burning.
I mean, this is what this guywas saying in the article, alex.
He was saying you know thatactually I'm so weary of doing
preachers every week.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think to myself.
You know, clearly, in Acts 2.42, the scripture says they were
devoted to the Apostles teachingand we assume what that means
is a weekly sermon.
It needs to, needs to occur,and I'm not sure where we
crossed that bridge from thedevotion to teaching to
(15:44):
everything centers around aweekly sermon.
Sermons are great, don't get mewrong.
I've written plenty of them andI like to do that, and there's
an important place.
I just wonder if we are, if wewould be more devoted to the
Apostles teaching, if wepreached a little bit less and
learn to practice it a lot moretogether, would that look, would
(16:08):
that be a maybe a more suitableunderstanding of the phrase
devoted to the teaching, ifwe're practicing it together,
because to me that's where thedevotion comes into play.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Not just that we look at it or listen to it or say it
every week, but that, no, thisis something that we're going to
commit our lives to together incommunity.
So that was just one thing.
Is that the speaking?
And then maybe a little bit.
I mean, there's one example inscripture where Paul is
collecting money from churchesto give to a poor church.
Other than that we don't see aweekly collecting of money
(16:43):
except for one occasion.
And so this idea of being andthat goes into a whole other
topic we'll talk about maybe atanother point is is the weekly
tithe and what the scripture hasto say or doesn't have to say
about that.
But this idea of being aprofessional fundraiser, I mean
that's correct, but to weighthat against the scripture,
(17:06):
there's a there's a massive gap.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, I think.
Well, I think that that islinked to the CEO.
I mean, I find this one of thesaddest part.
There's stuff in this articlethat we don't know.
So we don't know how much Alexis questioning this.
I'm not sure that there is ajourney there, the matter of
fact, where he talks about beinga CEO.
(17:28):
I'm just going to quote thislittle bit here.
He says the second requiredskill is that you are like the
CEO of a company, anticipatingnot only what the current people
in your church want, but alsohow to bring new people through
the door.
You have to grow the businessand enter the conditions we're
in right now.
That's super difficult becauseI've, as I've discussed in
(17:49):
previous posts, the culture issuch that people don't really
want to go to church anymore.
Now, the thing that grabs myattention is not that the
culture is such that peopledon't want to go to church
anymore, is that is this issueof what?
How come pastors are CEOs ofcompanies?
(18:12):
Like, what is that about andwhere?
How did we get that?
And again, is this gospel Like,where did this come?
I mean, I know that this is awhole podcast episode right here
, but I and we're just going totouch on it, but I think that
that was one of the things thatcame up for me in this article
is like, actually, we'reupholding some potentially we're
(18:36):
upholding something here thatwe shouldn't be upholding as
part as as pastoral ministry andof course, he's going to end up
fundraising if he's seeing thechurch as a business, if he's
seeing if he, if he or she as apastor is going to be a person
who is sensing that we've got togrow this thing like a business
(19:02):
would grow.
You know, that's very like yousay.
It's very different from havinga generosity around a community
so that you can be connected tomission, connected to the poor.
I'm not negating the need formoney and staffing and all of
that stuff.
I think there is some level ofthat, but I mean it feels like
(19:25):
when you start talking CEO level, it feels like this is top
heavy.
This is like, instead of this,like being a spiritual community
that will need some level ofmoney to be active and present
and vibrant in the community,especially when it comes to
(19:45):
serving the poor, widows andorphans, like the early church.
The language of CEO and runninga company seems like way off to
me from that.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, I agree, and, and you're right, there is a
level of finances where I don'tknow that the church necessarily
has to be involved in everyaspect of an individual's giving
.
You know, the way I always kindof learned, within at least
evangelical systems, is no, youbring the whole tithe to the
(20:17):
storehouse, taken from you knowthe Old Testament book of
Malachi, and bring that into theNew Testament, and there is
some place for pay and staffing.
Scripture says you know, don'tmuzzle the ox while it's
treading out the grain.
But today, with the whole youknow business model and the CEO
of a company, it becomes a wholedifferent animal when the
(20:40):
primary focus, week after weekafter week, is to have enough
money to support your ownoverhead and and the financial
goals of the institution, andthen the resources are veering
away from mission, away from thepoor, away from places that
need to hear the good news forthe very first time, and so this
(21:01):
idea of being a professionalfundraiser puts a lot of weight
on an individual or a staff toto constantly be in this mode of
meaning money and people on thereceiving end of that, to be in
a mode of constantly thinkingwe're not quite doing enough, we
(21:22):
need to give more, be moregenerous.
And so it becomes this, thisinsatiable appetite for more.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And then I think also it has these knock on effects
for everything else.
So I think you know, if there'sthis pressure to fundraise or
raise money or grow itfinancially for good reasons
right, because that there's notmany churches out there that are
going after buildings or biggerstaffing or bigger budgets,
(22:00):
because they that they're justgreedy, like they would never
say that it's usually for goodreasons.
It's usually so we can be alight in the city or it's
usually for something.
But what happens when thatbecomes the focus is that you
start treat, you start seeingpeople differently, even people.
I mean like he says in thearticle.
(22:21):
Let me just bring this up again.
But he says, you know,anticipating not only what the
current people in your churchwant, but also how to bring new
people through the door.
So suddenly, money is aboutbringing people through the door
.
Hang on, hang on a minute.
What, what?
What's happened here?
Is it about allowing people tomeet with Jesus or is it about
(22:46):
understanding that the morepeople in your church will
provide more weekly tithes, morevolunteer hours?
And now I, as I'm speaking Iknow I have a cynical I'm
sounding, but I think it's likea really important question,
because actually, do you startseeing new people who come in on
(23:08):
your Sunday gathering as, ohgreat, you know I, where's the
motivation here?
Like, suddenly, does it getdistorted?
Is I guess that's what I'masking.
I'm not saying that it's evil,or, but I wonder how much
compromise gets in there intothe heart of motivation.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
You know I think it's well asked how much do we
inadvertently begin to seepeople as human resources as
opposed to seeing theirGod-given potential, as those
who have been made in the imageof God, who have a unique
God-given purpose in this world?
Let's find that out together.
It's kind of like God has awonderful plan for God loves you
, but we have a wonderful planfor your life.
(23:47):
So, yeah, it can have a subtledistortion on on how we view
people who come through the doorand and what it is that we want
of them.
We want them to join, we wantthem to help this Sunday thing
and we want them to give moneyand and that sounds very
(24:08):
straightforward, maybe evencrass, I apologize for that, but
at the end of the day that'sand then we define that as
living out the mission of Jesusand we say, well, wait a minute,
I thought the mission of Jesuswas out there and, and maybe
there's a small piece of itthat's in here, but we're, I
think, missing it if we feellike the entire spectrum of the
mission of Jesus occurs 10o'clock in a Sunday morning at
(24:31):
this address, and, and so Iwrestle with that, and and I
wrestle with, maybe, how itpostures the church in the
community rather than looking atthe larger community around a
church as as people where wewant to shine.
(24:53):
Let me rephrase this I thinkthere's a sense where it can
easily posture a church to lookat.
The community is existing tomeet our need to get larger as a
church rather than us as achurch existing to serve them,
love them, bless them, shine thelight of the good news of Jesus
.
However, we want to say itregardless of what kickback it
(25:17):
might get for us, but the thisis not a business investment
here.
This is a a.
The community is a environmentin which we acknowledge the, the
beauty and the infinite worthof people by serving them in a
(25:40):
way that expresses the love ofJesus, with no strings attached,
and maybe that's a little bitmore what Jesus had in mind when
he said love your neighbor asyourself, not love your neighbor
as yourself, so that you cangrow your church yeah, I mean,
you know these are reallyimportant topics and actually I
(26:01):
would see them as this article.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
For me, kirk is kind of it's the red flags, it's it's
the hang on a minute, let'sjust not read this article.
And and I do want to empathize,actually, with the pastors,
because the real thrust of thisarticle from Alex was this is
crazy like this is gonna destroymy family, this is destroying
(26:25):
my mental health.
I'm getting out of here.
That's real.
You know.
That's an absolute, realpressure.
And they and pastors are realhuman beings too.
You know that God loves, thatGod cares for in terms of
well-being, health, emotional,mental, spiritual health.
But as well as that, what it didfor me was raise these big red
(26:51):
flags.
I was thinking you can't readthis article and skirt over
these things.
So we're talking about the, theunrealistic expectations.
We're talking about the bitthis kind of business model
comes through there, like what,why?
And then also I wanted just tomove on really quickly to talk
about.
He says you know, finally,you're expected to be this
(27:13):
pillar of virtue in thecommunity and your family,
meaning you must be blameless ormorally pure.
That's what he says.
Your spouse and your childrenshould all be perfect or close
to it.
I think for me, kirk, you knowagain, and and all of these, all
of these points that we'rebringing up we are gonna go into
more thorough details in inthese big giant topics, because
(27:37):
we're really raising gianttopics right now in future
episodes.
But for me, I think you know,when I think through some of the
these giant tragedies anddisasters that keep coming out
of the church right now,unfortunately, I can think of
very recent ones, of pastorsreally messing up.
(28:01):
I wonder whether some of it'sgot to do with this, this, this
like well, we've got to be thesesuperhuman beings and actually
what it's doing is it's maskingthis undercurrent, this of sin.
Often that can happen becausewe're just too afraid as pastors
(28:21):
, too afraid to be honest,because, goodness me, what will
that do you know?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would that do I mean?
Honestly, I think of anything.
It would just endure people toyou all the more.
But but the system, it doesn'tfit the system.
And I think he kind of closesout by saying you know, the
bottom line is, I realized thatI spend the rest of my.
If I spend the rest of my lifefighting a system that is not
(28:48):
designed for someone like me,I'm gonna end up angry, bitter,
broken shell of a human being.
So he sees his trajectory andhe says you know, this is not
what I signed up for.
And and I wonder how many ofthose 42% who have considered
leaving would it say the samething this is not what I signed
(29:09):
up for.
I signed up to say yes to Jesus.
I signed up to because I feltlike God had his hand on me, to,
to, to live out and help otherslive out God's kingdom purposes
in the world, but all of thisother stuff is not what I signed
up for.
So it comes back to thatquestion at what point to read,
(29:29):
relook at the system and say youknow, you know, it's kind of
Peter Schizzero.
He in emotionally healthyrelationships, he talks about a
family system being like abroken bike and how we just kind
of learn to ride the brokenbike rather than fixing the bike
.
But but honestly, ruth, when Ithink about the broken bike of
institutional church, I wonder.
(29:50):
There is so much, not only thatis broken.
We're so far down this paththat to me it's not a matter of
fixing the bike or trading it infor another bike, but even
considering an entirelydifferent mode of transportation
altogether, if I'm going to usehis analogy also Kirk, you know
on that one, because we'retalking about a system.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So I think that's that's really the crux of what
we're talking about in terms ofthe pastor's dilemma.
You know it's it.
Should I stay or should I go?
Should I be resilient and tryand work this broken bike?
And and then, if I, if I justget to the point where I feel
like I have to give up, then I'mseen as a failure or should I
(30:34):
go?
Am I following the voice of Godand am I like rediscovering a
new bike?
And I apologize if that's justtoo simplistic, but I think that
there is that tension.
I mean, I've seen it that youknow there is this mode of
resilience and it's seen as thiskind of bad thing to leave.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I think you're exactly right and and I think
that that resistance is is somuch a part of the unspoken
culture of the institution, thatone who is thinking about the
possibility of redirecting theirlife from a traditional
pastoral context to somethingdifferent.
(31:14):
I mean, there's a sense almostwhere you're quote quitting the
ministry or you're not beingtrue to your call.
You're you're not beingfaithful, and I think that
another question that I had as Iread through this article, ruth
, was is that true?
Is it true that for me to befaithful to my call as a pastor
(31:36):
is to be faithful and loyal tothe institution, that if, if I
leave one or say no to one, doesthat mean I'm also leaving and
saying no to the other?
We're so immersed in thissystem that it's difficult to
separate out the two, and Iguess I would say that my
encouragement for anyone whomight be identifying with that
(31:58):
question is that, no, you're notbeing unfaithful.
In fact, you might be waking upto the greatest expression of
your faithfulness to your callIf you begin to allow your mind
to go down the path of sayingwait a minute, this is not what
I signed up for.
I did sign up for followingJesus.
I did sign up for leadingothers to do the same.
(32:22):
What would that look like forme to do that differently?
I got kind of excited, ruth,when I was reading.
Towards the end of his articlehe said he's going to start a
business more on that to come hesaid, so I'm looking forward to
reading it.
And he said the heart of hisbusiness is connecting people in
relationship with other people,and I thought now we're getting
(32:42):
to something that to me felt alittle bit more like church if I
can use that word thaneverything else that he
described in the previousparagraphs.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, I mean, you know I've had many conversations
with people who have been vicaror pastors in England.
They're vicar, you know we'vegot different denominations and
you know some of them arebecoming coaches, some of them
are satinate businesses.
But it's interesting to me howsimilar the qualities of, and
(33:13):
the heart is still the same of.
Actually I want to help peoplejourney towards spirituality, to
understand Jesus more, but it'sjust outside the context of
that institutional framework.
So, yeah, I agree with you andI think that's such a good
question, because our first callin my mind, anyhow, what?
(33:34):
For me, my first call was tofollow Christ.
And then what institution, howthat is expressed, is a
different thing.
If you are still in pastoralministry and you are seeing a
colleague quit, don't write themoff, you know.
(33:54):
Don't.
Don't think that they'requitting the ministry.
They might not be.
They might actually be, likeyou said, more more close to
being who, who they are inChrist and ever before.
So I think it's it's it's aninvitation to really listen and
come close to people in thatspace.
I'm really grateful forAlexander of writing this.
(34:17):
I think it's been super helpfulfor people, whether they agree
with him or not, to just seewhat he was having to uphold and
the reasons as to why he's madethis step towards his future
and towards fulfilling hiscalling as a pastor, yeah, yeah,
(34:39):
and and my sense, though thoughhe didn't say it expressly is
that he gets that as well andthat he is and I pray the best
for him Like to me.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
I feel excited for his decision, I feel excited for
the new venture, I feel excitedto read it, and I hope that his
words kind of ignite somethinga little bit similar in the
hearts and lives of other peoplewho have a desire and a sense
that God's called me to servepastorally, to help other people
(35:12):
in their faith journey, but whofind themselves, maybe instead
serving this this weeklytreadmill and are quietly
wondering how do I get off?
How do I, you know, how do Iredirect my outward life to
(35:33):
match a little bit more what'sgoing on in the inside of my
heart, so that my core valuesare being expressed and so that
I'm actually experiencing andmodeling the abundant life that
I'm trying to lead other peopleto possess as well?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
And I think, as we're wrapping up this conversation,
I think it's important in termsof of you, of what is happening.
We might, you know, I don'tknow where our listeners are
going to be we're going to havesome listeners who are pastors,
some who are, you know, haveinvested in the local church for
a long, long time, and we'regoing to have some people who
(36:09):
are just like, have been outsideof it for a long time, and many
, many more people.
But I think, when it comes todiscerning what's going on and
and trying to understand ourresponse to articles like this
and this is just one, you know,this is just what.
It is just one article and it'sreally kind of sharing this
(36:30):
true nature of the heavy weightof what pastoral ministry looks
like and it raises some, somesignificant red flags of the
system of the church.
To me, I think it's just reallyimportant to to listen and to
have empathy.
I think that there is a levelyou know reading through the
(36:52):
comments of this article.
Like you said, it's gone likeviral, so there's a lot of
comments in the article too.
We just we'd love you to readit if you're listening.
I think it'd be really helpful.
We'll we'll probably tag it inour end notes on this podcast,
but there is a level of harmthat is happening.
(37:14):
Whether we blame whoever weblame for that, the reality is
that it's happening.
It's happening to pastors, it'shappening to congregants and
it's it's happening to themessage that's being conveyed to
(37:38):
the world.
And so I cook.
I don't have all the answers.
We are not here to provide anyof the answers, but we're here
because we are so aware of thatfact and we want to discover how
can we return to being the bodyof Christ that is offering
(38:01):
healing, that is offeringwholeness.
And so, whether you, you know,wherever you find yourself, the
fact that there is an articleout here where a guy is going,
this is traumatic, this istrauma.
And that's just one person, andmy guess is that he's
representing so many more, andhe's not even representing the
(38:24):
congregants and he's not evenrepresenting all the other
categories that I just said.
But there is trauma, there ishurt, there is harm.
Is there good stuff happeningin the church?
I'm sure there is, but wecannot I feel like we cannot
turn a blind eye to that.
And it's got to the point wherenot only is it harming us
(38:46):
within the church, people whoare following Jesus, but it's
really harming the message ofJesus to the world, and so that,
for me, is the real reason forinviting people to not just take
sides of well, we've just gotto be resilient, we've got to
(39:07):
stay or we've got to go Likelet's just be in tune with what
God is saying you know yes, 100%, and I think that's a real key
statement.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
A real key question is when we take a step back and
we consider 42% of pastorsconsidering quitting since COVID
and probably the majority ofthose not making that decision
to quit because you've heard thestatement before as much as I
have what would I do?
How would I earn money?
(39:40):
And so that keeps a lot ofpastors stuck.
But when we consider that factand pastors resigning so a lot
of pastors actually have madethat decision, have resigned and
are expressing their pastoralcalling in different ways and
when you consider 40 millionpeople leaving the evangelical
(40:03):
church in the last 20 yearsthat's 2 million people a year
you know my mind starts askingOK, what are the signals here?
What is the bigger picture ofwhat Jesus is saying to his
church?
Is Jesus inviting his people onto something new?
(40:27):
So, rather than seeing this as abad thing that we keep fighting
, what if God's at work in themidst of this, leading people on
to something fresh and tosomething new and into something
life-giving?
So those are the conversations,ruth, that I think are at that
(40:49):
we would really encourage ourlisteners just to lean in and
have with people.
These are things that pastorsthink about, leaders think about
but don't tend to talk about,and our encouragement to a
listener would be to find a safeplace to have a conversation.
You know that doesn't have tobe Bridget and Rhino, that
(41:09):
doesn't have to be us, thatdoesn't have to be a
reconstructing pastor's cohort.
Find any space for a safeconversation and, as to your
point earlier on in this talk,ruth, to listen, to pay
attention to what is God saying.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I think you know, sometimes I'm aware of these
like quotes on hearing the voiceof God, and there's absolute
truth in these statements.
But we're often encouraged like, well, you need to go and find
a quiet, still space to hear thevoice of God, and that is true
and that is special when thathappens.
(41:50):
But as someone who has been inprophetic ministry for a number
of years, I always like to say,well, actually we also need to
hear God in the noise, becauseour whole life is cluttered and,
especially if you're a pastor,it's gonna be noisy and, yeah,
you can go off and you know,hear God in those special times
(42:12):
and I encourage you to do that.
But sometimes God will bespeaking to you in the noise and
he's trying to get yourattention and it won't be even
the still small voice.
It might be that you're feelingsomething in your body that is
not right.
It might be that gut check,that feeling that you're the
(42:32):
questions.
It might be that when your headhits the pillow at night
there's something that just is,there's a thought that that
you're thinking about from theday.
That just doesn't settle right.
And I would say, pay attentionto those things, because that
very well might be God speakingto you in the noise.
(42:53):
If you tune in, you might besurprised at what he's saying.
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
When I think about the heart of Jesus in this space
and this is for me and aresponse that I felt like I made
to what Jesus was telling me,when I began to actually pay
attention, like you'resuggesting, and I felt like
Jesus was saying those veryfamiliar words come to me, come
(43:28):
to me all who are weary andheavy laden, and I will give you
rest for your souls and take myyoke upon you and learn from me
, for my yoke is easy, my burdenis light and you will find rest
for your souls.
That seems like a verydifferent experience than I
(43:52):
think, what a lot of pastorsunfortunately experience, but I
do believe that that is theheart of Jesus for people and
that's the heart of Jesus forthe pastor.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat wwwbridgeinrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
You're listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
I'm Ruth Lawrenson.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Kirk Romberg.
We're recovering pastorstalking about what it looks like
to make sense of our callingand community expression on the
other side of deconstruction.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Our hope is to create a safe space to explore the
bigger picture of the church,both the present state of the
American evangelical church andwhat the future may hold for
those who are searching for abetter way.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
We're really glad you're here.
Let's get started.
Well, hey, good morning Ruth.
How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Great Thanks.
Yeah, I'm doing well, lookingforward to this conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, so we have a good conversation ahead of us
and, in fact, you sent anarticle to me about a week ago
as a point of interest and yousaid this thing's going viral.
That has to do with what we'redoing on the podcast.
You should give it a read, andI did, and since then I've
(01:07):
noticed there have been 350,000downloads of this article.
So you're right, this thing isgoing viral and there's
something about this articlethat caught your attention and
I'm wondering if you could sharea little bit about what that is
and just kind of give us asummary of what's happening here
.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, thanks, kirk.
Yeah, there's.
The article is by ReverendAlexander Lang and it's headed
departure why I left the church.
And I think it's so interestingthat it's gone viral, like we
were joking earlier, that it's alot more than my Instagram
account.
I think it's probably becauseit's hitting, you know, some
(01:45):
nerves and it's a reallyinteresting article and I've
mentioned to you, kirk, that Ithought it could be a really
interesting place to start interms of talking about this.
The past is dilemma, you know,and I think there is a dilemma
here in terms of where pastorsfind themselves, the place they
(02:05):
find themselves in such a timeas this.
So, you know, obviously it'sgot a lot of interest why I left
the church and I thought wecould just talk through it a
little bit and look at some ofthe reasons.
I mean, I read through it and Ijust thought, yeah, you know, I
can understand why he left thechurch.
I was a little alsodisappointed that there was not
(02:30):
so much questioning as to whysome of those things existed, so
it just like had so much inthat article, which I think is a
great start for us to have aconversation.
You know what I find, kirk, andwe'll touch really strongly on
this in this conversation isthat there seems to be this
tension around a pastor'sresponse to some of these system
(02:57):
issues and that's what thisarticle is raising it's system
issues and there is a responsethat is about resilience, about
muscling up, about like, just ifyou can just be better and
better and stronger and delegatemore and go to emotionally
healthy conferences and have abunch of counseling, you should
(03:20):
be fine and you should be ableto do it.
And then there's also thisother side and maybe there's I'm
sure there's people in betweenthis too but then there's this
other side of people who areactually saying hang on a minute
, leaving is okay, it's not afailure.
Actually, maybe right on theother side of this, maybe God is
(03:42):
doing something and maybe it'stime to question the system.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I think that's well phrased, as you're talking.
I was thinking you know, justto give a little bit of context
for our listeners, the articleis called Departure why Left the
Church?
And it's written by, as yousaid, alexander Lang.
He's a pastor in thePresbyterian Church and he has
been pastoring in the samecongregation for about 10 years
(04:10):
and he resigned just a couple ofweeks ago.
And to his congregation he saidwell, just writing sermons and
delivering them really wellevery single week.
I just got just really burntout on that.
But the article he actuallyunpacks a lot more reasons and
and then he concludes thearticle with a statement that he
says stay tuned, I'm going towrite more about this, but I'm
(04:33):
starting a business to connectpeople in relationship with
other people, which I thoughtwas really interesting, because
I am curious if there's not morein that statement that might
look more like the church thanthe church he's actually been
pastoring.
And and then he concludes withsome closing comments and words
(04:57):
in a poem that is very poignantto what he's bringing.
But back to your point, ruth.
There isn't necessarily in thearticle, it's maybe implied but
not stated a question of thesystem, and that's kind of what
I was thinking as I read thearticle is at what point do we
put, like you said, ruth, theonus on the pastor to delegate
(05:22):
more, to be more emotionallyhealthy, to to have rhythms that
are good and sustainable?
At what point do we say, well,wait a minute, hang on here.
At what point do we need torelook at the system and say
that the whole thing is broken,especially when maybe one out of
(05:44):
three finishes in this system?
Well, and wouldn't we call thedefinition of insanity doing the
same thing over and over andexpecting different results?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, and I think you know we and we can talk about
this in a little bit, but Ithink this is coming out.
We saw this in COVID, right?
We saw there's this likeanxiousness over pastoral
ministry, because we started tosee.
I think it's like what is it?
One in three pastors quit.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, one in three finishes well.
So two out of three.
Two out of three don't make itin the system.
Well, 42%, at least in thearticle, have considered
quitting since COVID.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah.
So this is huge.
This is a huge.
This is why the article's goneviral, right, and I remember
during COVID I was I was inpastoral ministry during COVID
and I think it just put thisincredible pressure on something
that was already pressurizedand and some of the things in
the article what it raises areunrealistic expectations.
(06:46):
He's like saying, basically, ifyou want a great career and if
you want a great life, don't bea pastor.
You know it's.
It's like you get crap pay.
That the pay is is really notgoing to enable family life.
It's not going to enablesomeone to have a a healthy
(07:09):
lifestyle if they're raising afamily.
So that's number one.
But then it's not just pay,it's the levels of expectation
for the pastor to.
I think one line in the articleit was like you have a thousand
bosses and the fact of thematter is, is that what it
raises is that basically youhave a lot of consumeristic
(07:34):
behavior from the church thatexpect a lot from this one
person.
So I mean that just cut.
That in itself is just onetopic to unpack.
Like why is that okay?
And not just for the pastor butfor the congregation?
What is that doing for thepastor's role and spiritual
(07:57):
formation in the congregationwhen that dynamic is allowed to
be at play.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think you're really hitting on a very significant
topic that rarely gets talkedabout, at least out loud,
because we start going into somecore issues that are underneath
the stated issues of the localchurch.
I mean, one of the lines thathe said in the article was that
(08:24):
it's expected of him to grow thebusiness.
And if we just take thatstatement for a moment and say
wait a minute, jesus said I willbuild my church, the gates of
hell will not prevail against it, but he didn't put upon his
followers the responsibility forgrowing an organization.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Making disciples yes growing an organization.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now, that's a very American value that we've
imposed onto the mission ofJesus and actually becomes a
mission underneath the missionthat, at least in my opinion,
you serfs the mission of Jesus.
We have to grow thisorganization.
So the effect is that thechurch, at least the
(09:06):
organization, becomes a providerof religious goods and services
rather than an equipper ofspiritually mature adults who
own their unique sense ofcalling in the life and mission
of Jesus.
And then people essentiallybecome consumers of religious
goods and services and Ruth Iwould even dare to say
(09:27):
dependence spiritual dependenceupon the church to provide for
them where they're not beingequipped to provide for
themselves.
And that's just the beginning.
Is this formative dynamic thatwe've created that actually
misshapes and misforms people inthe sense of mission on the
body of Christ?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, I mean, let's just go back to the article.
So this is the list ofunrealistic expectations for the
role of the pastor, and I thinkjust listing them and thinking,
like we were just saying, it'snot just detrimental for the
pastor to uphold all of thesethings, but what it actually
(10:13):
does to the body of Christ interms of creating dependency
from the role of the pastor, Ithink it really is really
questionable.
And so this is what he says.
Putting all this together, youcan see how crazy this is.
This is the role of the pastor.
Firstly, you're a professionalspeaker.
(10:34):
Secondly, you're a CEO, whichis actually real business
language.
It's dated business language,but it's business language which
is a whole, like I think youjust tapped into it, but it's a
whole conversation.
Why on earth we have churcheswith some level, like at least
some level of business model?
(10:55):
Number three he says you're acounselor again questionable.
Number four you're a fundraiser, because suddenly money's
really important, becauseactually if success is more and
better and bigger, then youactually have to grow this thing
and you have to seek outfinances.
Number five he says you're ahuman resources director.
(11:17):
Number six you're a master ofceremonies.
And number seven, believe it ornot.
You're a pillar of virtuebecause you know people are
expecting you to be this perfectrepresentation of God, which I
don't think is.
I think it misses the mark onbeing human and being accessible
(11:37):
as one of God's children, youknow.
I mean, how did we get here?
I think that's my question.
It's like, how did we arrive atthat package?
And obviously you know thisguy's from a certain
denomination, so it's not gonnaapply to every denomination.
(11:57):
But generally speaking, I thinkif pastors are listening to
this podcast, they are probablynodding their head right now a
little bit at least to a few ofthose things of like yep, yep,
yep, you know so.
So is this even realistic ofwhat Jesus has asked us to do in
pastor or ministry?
I think that's a question Ihave.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
I think it's an excellent question because it's
interesting.
As you were listing off thoseexpectations, I thought to
myself are these even in theBible, and how much has the
institutionalization of churchimpacted not only what we do and
why we do it, but how we do it?
I mean, maybe we can make acase for being a professional
(12:41):
speaker, but actually today, ina media-driven you know,
televised, ted Talk world, theexpectation to be exceptional is
very high and we like ourspeaking.
There's obviously a veryimportant role for speaking and
preaching and teaching.
Paul says to Timothy preach theword in season and out.
(13:03):
The scripture says that theywere devoted to the apostles'
teaching.
And yet I also wonder if wehaven't elevated this thing of
speaking so much that it'sbecome Corinthian in nature.
What I mean by that is theCorinthians also had an issue
with speaking that Pauladdressed.
They loved their speaking, theyloved their speakers and they
(13:27):
pitted speakers against oneanother.
So that's just one thing.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And I think that's a really important thing that I'm
sorry to interrupt, but I thinkyou know, because actually we're
not supposed to love thepreachers, we're supposed to
love the teaching.
So really that is about there'san appetite, a hunger in the
body of Christ, I think, tolearn and grow, and part of that
(13:51):
comes through teaching.
But when we look at how peoplegrow even just like if you look
across you know the whole worldof communication of how people
really grow that you know thetakeaway on a Sunday from a
preacher is pretty low.
And so for me I know, like youknow, the times where I've
(14:16):
really been formed and grow andfeel like I've come under or
being part of more not comeunder but being part of teaching
is around a coffee with someonewho I'm having a conversation
with, and so I wonder againwhether where have we got this
from?
How come we've got this oneperson?
They are responsible for all ofthe teaching in the church.
(14:39):
Now, I know there's teamssometimes, but there's a lot of
churches out there who rely onthat one person.
Usually they're a man, whichagain is another issue.
But I think the diversity issue, the how we as human beings
learn through you've talkedabout this before.
Behavior and being part of aconversation is so much more
(15:04):
applicable to spiritualformation than just hearing
preaching, and yet so we've gotthis kind of model that's
burning.
I mean, this is what this guywas saying in the article, alex.
He was saying you know thatactually I'm so weary of doing
preachers every week.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think to myself.
You know, clearly, in Acts 2.42, the scripture says they were
devoted to the Apostles teachingand we assume what that means
is a weekly sermon.
It needs to, needs to occur,and I'm not sure where we
crossed that bridge from thedevotion to teaching to
(15:44):
everything centers around aweekly sermon.
Sermons are great, don't get mewrong.
I've written plenty of them andI like to do that, and there's
an important place.
I just wonder if we are, if wewould be more devoted to the
Apostles teaching, if wepreached a little bit less and
learn to practice it a lot moretogether, would that look, would
(16:08):
that be a maybe a more suitableunderstanding of the phrase
devoted to the teaching, ifwe're practicing it together,
because to me that's where thedevotion comes into play.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Not just that we look at it or listen to it or say it
every week, but that, no, thisis something that we're going to
commit our lives to together incommunity.
So that was just one thing.
Is that the speaking?
And then maybe a little bit.
I mean, there's one example inscripture where Paul is
collecting money from churchesto give to a poor church.
Other than that we don't see aweekly collecting of money
(16:43):
except for one occasion.
And so this idea of being andthat goes into a whole other
topic we'll talk about maybe atanother point is is the weekly
tithe and what the scripture hasto say or doesn't have to say
about that.
But this idea of being aprofessional fundraiser, I mean
that's correct, but to weighthat against the scripture,
(17:06):
there's a there's a massive gap.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, I think.
Well, I think that that islinked to the CEO.
I mean, I find this one of thesaddest part.
There's stuff in this articlethat we don't know.
So we don't know how much Alexis questioning this.
I'm not sure that there is ajourney there, the matter of
fact, where he talks about beinga CEO.
(17:28):
I'm just going to quote thislittle bit here.
He says the second requiredskill is that you are like the
CEO of a company, anticipatingnot only what the current people
in your church want, but alsohow to bring new people through
the door.
You have to grow the businessand enter the conditions we're
in right now.
That's super difficult becauseI've, as I've discussed in
(17:49):
previous posts, the culture issuch that people don't really
want to go to church anymore.
Now, the thing that grabs myattention is not that the
culture is such that peopledon't want to go to church
anymore, is that is this issueof what?
How come pastors are CEOs ofcompanies?
(18:12):
Like, what is that about andwhere?
How did we get that?
And again, is this gospel Like,where did this come?
I mean, I know that this is awhole podcast episode right here
, but I and we're just going totouch on it, but I think that
that was one of the things thatcame up for me in this article
is like, actually, we'reupholding some potentially we're
(18:36):
upholding something here thatwe shouldn't be upholding as
part as as pastoral ministry andof course, he's going to end up
fundraising if he's seeing thechurch as a business, if he's
seeing if he, if he or she as apastor is going to be a person
who is sensing that we've got togrow this thing like a business
(19:02):
would grow.
You know, that's very like yousay.
It's very different from havinga generosity around a community
so that you can be connected tomission, connected to the poor.
I'm not negating the need formoney and staffing and all of
that stuff.
I think there is some level ofthat, but I mean it feels like
(19:25):
when you start talking CEO level, it feels like this is top
heavy.
This is like, instead of this,like being a spiritual community
that will need some level ofmoney to be active and present
and vibrant in the community,especially when it comes to
(19:45):
serving the poor, widows andorphans, like the early church.
The language of CEO and runninga company seems like way off to
me from that.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, I agree, and, and you're right, there is a
level of finances where I don'tknow that the church necessarily
has to be involved in everyaspect of an individual's giving
.
You know, the way I always kindof learned, within at least
evangelical systems, is no, youbring the whole tithe to the
(20:17):
storehouse, taken from you knowthe Old Testament book of
Malachi, and bring that into theNew Testament, and there is
some place for pay and staffing.
Scripture says you know, don'tmuzzle the ox while it's
treading out the grain.
But today, with the whole youknow business model and the CEO
of a company, it becomes a wholedifferent animal when the
(20:40):
primary focus, week after weekafter week, is to have enough
money to support your ownoverhead and and the financial
goals of the institution, andthen the resources are veering
away from mission, away from thepoor, away from places that
need to hear the good news forthe very first time, and so this
(21:01):
idea of being a professionalfundraiser puts a lot of weight
on an individual or a staff toto constantly be in this mode of
meaning money and people on thereceiving end of that, to be in
a mode of constantly thinkingwe're not quite doing enough, we
(21:22):
need to give more, be moregenerous.
And so it becomes this, thisinsatiable appetite for more.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And then I think also it has these knock on effects
for everything else.
So I think you know, if there'sthis pressure to fundraise or
raise money or grow itfinancially for good reasons
right, because that there's notmany churches out there that are
going after buildings or biggerstaffing or bigger budgets,
(22:00):
because they that they're justgreedy, like they would never
say that it's usually for goodreasons.
It's usually so we can be alight in the city or it's
usually for something.
But what happens when thatbecomes the focus is that you
start treat, you start seeingpeople differently, even people.
I mean like he says in thearticle.
(22:21):
Let me just bring this up again.
But he says, you know,anticipating not only what the
current people in your churchwant, but also how to bring new
people through the door.
So suddenly, money is aboutbringing people through the door
.
Hang on, hang on a minute.
What, what?
What's happened here?
Is it about allowing people tomeet with Jesus or is it about
(22:46):
understanding that the morepeople in your church will
provide more weekly tithes, morevolunteer hours?
And now I, as I'm speaking Iknow I have a cynical I'm
sounding, but I think it's likea really important question,
because actually, do you startseeing new people who come in on
(23:08):
your Sunday gathering as, ohgreat, you know I, where's the
motivation here?
Like, suddenly, does it getdistorted?
Is I guess that's what I'masking.
I'm not saying that it's evil,or, but I wonder how much
compromise gets in there intothe heart of motivation.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
You know I think it's well asked how much do we
inadvertently begin to seepeople as human resources as
opposed to seeing theirGod-given potential, as those
who have been made in the imageof God, who have a unique
God-given purpose in this world?
Let's find that out together.
It's kind of like God has awonderful plan for God loves you
, but we have a wonderful planfor your life.
(23:47):
So, yeah, it can have a subtledistortion on on how we view
people who come through the doorand and what it is that we want
of them.
We want them to join, we wantthem to help this Sunday thing
and we want them to give moneyand and that sounds very
(24:08):
straightforward, maybe evencrass, I apologize for that, but
at the end of the day that'sand then we define that as
living out the mission of Jesusand we say, well, wait a minute,
I thought the mission of Jesuswas out there and, and maybe
there's a small piece of itthat's in here, but we're, I
think, missing it if we feellike the entire spectrum of the
mission of Jesus occurs 10o'clock in a Sunday morning at
(24:31):
this address, and, and so Iwrestle with that, and and I
wrestle with, maybe, how itpostures the church in the
community rather than looking atthe larger community around a
church as as people where wewant to shine.
(24:53):
Let me rephrase this I thinkthere's a sense where it can
easily posture a church to lookat.
The community is existing tomeet our need to get larger as a
church rather than us as achurch existing to serve them,
love them, bless them, shine thelight of the good news of Jesus
.
However, we want to say itregardless of what kickback it
(25:17):
might get for us, but the thisis not a business investment
here.
This is a a.
The community is a environmentin which we acknowledge the, the
beauty and the infinite worthof people by serving them in a
(25:40):
way that expresses the love ofJesus, with no strings attached,
and maybe that's a little bitmore what Jesus had in mind when
he said love your neighbor asyourself, not love your neighbor
as yourself, so that you cangrow your church yeah, I mean,
you know these are reallyimportant topics and actually I
(26:01):
would see them as this article.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
For me, kirk is kind of it's the red flags, it's it's
the hang on a minute, let'sjust not read this article.
And and I do want to empathize,actually, with the pastors,
because the real thrust of thisarticle from Alex was this is
crazy like this is gonna destroymy family, this is destroying
(26:25):
my mental health.
I'm getting out of here.
That's real.
You know.
That's an absolute, realpressure.
And they and pastors are realhuman beings too.
You know that God loves, thatGod cares for in terms of
well-being, health, emotional,mental, spiritual health.
But as well as that, what it didfor me was raise these big red
(26:51):
flags.
I was thinking you can't readthis article and skirt over
these things.
So we're talking about the, theunrealistic expectations.
We're talking about the bitthis kind of business model
comes through there, like what,why?
And then also I wanted just tomove on really quickly to talk
about.
He says you know, finally,you're expected to be this
(27:13):
pillar of virtue in thecommunity and your family,
meaning you must be blameless ormorally pure.
That's what he says.
Your spouse and your childrenshould all be perfect or close
to it.
I think for me, kirk, you knowagain, and and all of these, all
of these points that we'rebringing up we are gonna go into
more thorough details in inthese big giant topics, because
(27:37):
we're really raising gianttopics right now in future
episodes.
But for me, I think you know,when I think through some of the
these giant tragedies anddisasters that keep coming out
of the church right now,unfortunately, I can think of
very recent ones, of pastorsreally messing up.
(28:01):
I wonder whether some of it'sgot to do with this, this, this
like well, we've got to be thesesuperhuman beings and actually
what it's doing is it's maskingthis undercurrent, this of sin.
Often that can happen becausewe're just too afraid as pastors
(28:21):
, too afraid to be honest,because, goodness me, what will
that do you know?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would that do I mean?
Honestly, I think of anything.
It would just endure people toyou all the more.
But but the system, it doesn'tfit the system.
And I think he kind of closesout by saying you know, the
bottom line is, I realized thatI spend the rest of my.
If I spend the rest of my lifefighting a system that is not
(28:48):
designed for someone like me,I'm gonna end up angry, bitter,
broken shell of a human being.
So he sees his trajectory andhe says you know, this is not
what I signed up for.
And and I wonder how many ofthose 42% who have considered
leaving would it say the samething this is not what I signed
(29:09):
up for.
I signed up to say yes to Jesus.
I signed up to because I feltlike God had his hand on me, to,
to, to live out and help otherslive out God's kingdom purposes
in the world, but all of thisother stuff is not what I signed
up for.
So it comes back to thatquestion at what point to read,
(29:29):
relook at the system and say youknow, you know, it's kind of
Peter Schizzero.
He in emotionally healthyrelationships, he talks about a
family system being like abroken bike and how we just kind
of learn to ride the brokenbike rather than fixing the bike
.
But but honestly, ruth, when Ithink about the broken bike of
institutional church, I wonder.
(29:50):
There is so much, not only thatis broken.
We're so far down this paththat to me it's not a matter of
fixing the bike or trading it infor another bike, but even
considering an entirelydifferent mode of transportation
altogether, if I'm going to usehis analogy also Kirk, you know
on that one, because we'retalking about a system.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So I think that's that's really the crux of what
we're talking about in terms ofthe pastor's dilemma.
You know it's it.
Should I stay or should I go?
Should I be resilient and tryand work this broken bike?
And and then, if I, if I justget to the point where I feel
like I have to give up, then I'mseen as a failure or should I
(30:34):
go?
Am I following the voice of Godand am I like rediscovering a
new bike?
And I apologize if that's justtoo simplistic, but I think that
there is that tension.
I mean, I've seen it that youknow there is this mode of
resilience and it's seen as thiskind of bad thing to leave.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I think you're exactly right and and I think
that that resistance is is somuch a part of the unspoken
culture of the institution, thatone who is thinking about the
possibility of redirecting theirlife from a traditional
pastoral context to somethingdifferent.
(31:14):
I mean, there's a sense almostwhere you're quote quitting the
ministry or you're not beingtrue to your call.
You're you're not beingfaithful, and I think that
another question that I had as Iread through this article, ruth
, was is that true?
Is it true that for me to befaithful to my call as a pastor
(31:36):
is to be faithful and loyal tothe institution, that if, if I
leave one or say no to one, doesthat mean I'm also leaving and
saying no to the other?
We're so immersed in thissystem that it's difficult to
separate out the two, and Iguess I would say that my
encouragement for anyone whomight be identifying with that
(31:58):
question is that, no, you're notbeing unfaithful.
In fact, you might be waking upto the greatest expression of
your faithfulness to your callIf you begin to allow your mind
to go down the path of sayingwait a minute, this is not what
I signed up for.
I did sign up for followingJesus.
I did sign up for leadingothers to do the same.
(32:22):
What would that look like forme to do that differently?
I got kind of excited, ruth,when I was reading.
Towards the end of his articlehe said he's going to start a
business more on that to come hesaid, so I'm looking forward to
reading it.
And he said the heart of hisbusiness is connecting people in
relationship with other people,and I thought now we're getting
(32:42):
to something that to me felt alittle bit more like church if I
can use that word thaneverything else that he
described in the previousparagraphs.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, I mean, you know I've had many conversations
with people who have been vicaror pastors in England.
They're vicar, you know we'vegot different denominations and
you know some of them arebecoming coaches, some of them
are satinate businesses.
But it's interesting to me howsimilar the qualities of, and
(33:13):
the heart is still the same of.
Actually I want to help peoplejourney towards spirituality, to
understand Jesus more, but it'sjust outside the context of
that institutional framework.
So, yeah, I agree with you andI think that's such a good
question, because our first callin my mind, anyhow, what?
(33:34):
For me, my first call was tofollow Christ.
And then what institution, howthat is expressed, is a
different thing.
If you are still in pastoralministry and you are seeing a
colleague quit, don't write themoff, you know.
(33:54):
Don't.
Don't think that they'requitting the ministry.
They might not be.
They might actually be, likeyou said, more more close to
being who, who they are inChrist and ever before.
So I think it's it's it's aninvitation to really listen and
come close to people in thatspace.
I'm really grateful forAlexander of writing this.
(34:17):
I think it's been super helpfulfor people, whether they agree
with him or not, to just seewhat he was having to uphold and
the reasons as to why he's madethis step towards his future
and towards fulfilling hiscalling as a pastor, yeah, yeah,
(34:39):
and and my sense, though thoughhe didn't say it expressly is
that he gets that as well andthat he is and I pray the best
for him Like to me.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
I feel excited for his decision, I feel excited for
the new venture, I feel excitedto read it, and I hope that his
words kind of ignite somethinga little bit similar in the
hearts and lives of other peoplewho have a desire and a sense
that God's called me to servepastorally, to help other people
(35:12):
in their faith journey, but whofind themselves, maybe instead
serving this this weeklytreadmill and are quietly
wondering how do I get off?
How do I, you know, how do Iredirect my outward life to
(35:33):
match a little bit more what'sgoing on in the inside of my
heart, so that my core valuesare being expressed and so that
I'm actually experiencing andmodeling the abundant life that
I'm trying to lead other peopleto possess as well?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
And I think, as we're wrapping up this conversation,
I think it's important in termsof of you, of what is happening.
We might, you know, I don'tknow where our listeners are
going to be we're going to havesome listeners who are pastors,
some who are, you know, haveinvested in the local church for
a long, long time, and we'regoing to have some people who
(36:09):
are just like, have been outsideof it for a long time, and many
, many more people.
But I think, when it comes todiscerning what's going on and
and trying to understand ourresponse to articles like this
and this is just one, you know,this is just what.
It is just one article and it'sreally kind of sharing this
(36:30):
true nature of the heavy weightof what pastoral ministry looks
like and it raises some, somesignificant red flags of the
system of the church.
To me, I think it's just reallyimportant to to listen and to
have empathy.
I think that there is a levelyou know reading through the
(36:52):
comments of this article.
Like you said, it's gone likeviral, so there's a lot of
comments in the article too.
We just we'd love you to readit if you're listening.
I think it'd be really helpful.
We'll we'll probably tag it inour end notes on this podcast,
but there is a level of harmthat is happening.
(37:14):
Whether we blame whoever weblame for that, the reality is
that it's happening.
It's happening to pastors, it'shappening to congregants and
it's it's happening to themessage that's being conveyed to
(37:38):
the world.
And so I cook.
I don't have all the answers.
We are not here to provide anyof the answers, but we're here
because we are so aware of thatfact and we want to discover how
can we return to being the bodyof Christ that is offering
(38:01):
healing, that is offeringwholeness.
And so, whether you, you know,wherever you find yourself, the
fact that there is an articleout here where a guy is going,
this is traumatic, this istrauma.
And that's just one person, andmy guess is that he's
representing so many more, andhe's not even representing the
(38:24):
congregants and he's not evenrepresenting all the other
categories that I just said.
But there is trauma, there ishurt, there is harm.
Is there good stuff happeningin the church?
I'm sure there is, but wecannot I feel like we cannot
turn a blind eye to that.
And it's got to the point wherenot only is it harming us
(38:46):
within the church, people whoare following Jesus, but it's
really harming the message ofJesus to the world, and so that,
for me, is the real reason forinviting people to not just take
sides of well, we've just gotto be resilient, we've got to
(39:07):
stay or we've got to go Likelet's just be in tune with what
God is saying you know yes, 100%, and I think that's a real key
statement.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
A real key question is when we take a step back and
we consider 42% of pastorsconsidering quitting since COVID
and probably the majority ofthose not making that decision
to quit because you've heard thestatement before as much as I
have what would I do?
How would I earn money?
(39:40):
And so that keeps a lot ofpastors stuck.
But when we consider that factand pastors resigning so a lot
of pastors actually have madethat decision, have resigned and
are expressing their pastoralcalling in different ways and
when you consider 40 millionpeople leaving the evangelical
(40:03):
church in the last 20 yearsthat's 2 million people a year
you know my mind starts askingOK, what are the signals here?
What is the bigger picture ofwhat Jesus is saying to his
church?
Is Jesus inviting his people onto something new?
(40:27):
So, rather than seeing this as abad thing that we keep fighting
, what if God's at work in themidst of this, leading people on
to something fresh and tosomething new and into something
life-giving?
So those are the conversations,ruth, that I think are at that
(40:49):
we would really encourage ourlisteners just to lean in and
have with people.
These are things that pastorsthink about, leaders think about
but don't tend to talk about,and our encouragement to a
listener would be to find a safeplace to have a conversation.
You know that doesn't have tobe Bridget and Rhino, that
(41:09):
doesn't have to be us, thatdoesn't have to be a
reconstructing pastor's cohort.
Find any space for a safeconversation and, as to your
point earlier on in this talk,ruth, to listen, to pay
attention to what is God saying.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I think you know, sometimes I'm aware of these
like quotes on hearing the voiceof God, and there's absolute
truth in these statements.
But we're often encouraged like, well, you need to go and find
a quiet, still space to hear thevoice of God, and that is true
and that is special when thathappens.
(41:50):
But as someone who has been inprophetic ministry for a number
of years, I always like to say,well, actually we also need to
hear God in the noise, becauseour whole life is cluttered and,
especially if you're a pastor,it's gonna be noisy and, yeah,
you can go off and you know,hear God in those special times
(42:12):
and I encourage you to do that.
But sometimes God will bespeaking to you in the noise and
he's trying to get yourattention and it won't be even
the still small voice.
It might be that you're feelingsomething in your body that is
not right.
It might be that gut check,that feeling that you're the
(42:32):
questions.
It might be that when your headhits the pillow at night
there's something that just is,there's a thought that that
you're thinking about from theday.
That just doesn't settle right.
And I would say, pay attentionto those things, because that
very well might be God speakingto you in the noise.
(42:53):
If you tune in, you might besurprised at what he's saying.
That's so good.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
When I think about the heart of Jesus in this space
and this is for me and aresponse that I felt like I made
to what Jesus was telling me,when I began to actually pay
attention, like you'resuggesting, and I felt like
Jesus was saying those veryfamiliar words come to me, come
(43:28):
to me all who are weary andheavy laden, and I will give you
rest for your souls and take myyoke upon you and learn from me
, for my yoke is easy, my burdenis light and you will find rest
for your souls.
That seems like a verydifferent experience than I
(43:52):
think, what a lot of pastorsunfortunately experience, but I
do believe that that is theheart of Jesus for people and
that's the heart of Jesus forthe pastor.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Thanks for listening to the Reconstructing Pastors
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating andreview.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
And if you're interested in leaning into this
conversation further, we'd lovefor you to be a part of a
special online communitycoaching space called
Reconstructing Pastors Cohort.
For details, visit our websiteat wwwbridgeinrinocom.
See you at the next episode.
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