Reviving Rhythms and Real Estate: Moses Hall’s Strategy for Societal Symphony

Moses Hall, a maestro in the realms of both music and real estate, graces our latest episode with his extraordinary tale of transition. The man known as Mo fuses a unique sartorial flair with astute branding acumen to navigate Chicago's property scene with finesse. Our conversation spans from his leadership within the Young Professionals Network to his passionate involvement in the revitalization of communities such as Bronzeville and Hazel Crest illuminating how one can strike a harmonious chord between societal impact and entrepreneurial success.

Strap in as we dissect the intricacies of property management, where Mo's insights reveal the industry's underestimated complexity and the pivotal influence of effective management on property value and tax assessments. Not to be outshone, the rhythm of the music industry beats on, with discussions around the shifting sands of artist exposure, the crucial role of social media, and the exciting frontier of music licensing. Mo's dual prowess shines here, as he shares his vision for merging business savvy with creative expression, navigating the tides of an industry in flux.

Reflecting on life lessons and inspirations, Mo opens up about his formative years at the FAME School and how those experiences have reverberated throughout his career. It's a narrative that transcends the typical and dives deeper into personal growth, the value of both optimism and skepticism in forging successful partnerships, and the pursuit of educational programs that contribute to community upliftment. Join us for this enriching journey that's as much about beats and bricks as it is about the heartbeat of vibrant communities.

Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group

Email the Show: [e-mail]

Guest: Moses Hall, MoHall Commercial and Urban Development

Link: Young Professionals Network | Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Michael Reese Hospital: What to know about the site proposed for Chicago Bears’ new stadium
Link: LaGuardia High School
Link: Fame (1980 film) - Wikipedia
Link: Village of Hazel Crest
Link: Bronzeville - Chicago Neighborhoods

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Records and Real Estate, a podcast about
well, records and real estate.
You'll be entertained andinformed as we explore the
intersection of these two worldsthrough interviews with
Chicago's most interesting andsuccessful people from both
industries.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
That was Andrew Wendt and I'm Karen Sanvas.
We are Chicago real estatebrokers, property managers, avid
music lovers and your hosts ofRecords and Real Estate.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Karen.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Andrew.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
What are we doing here?
Just kidding, we just spokewith Moses, aka Mo Hall, who was
wonderful to speak to he wasdoing really great things in
Chicagoland.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I wish you all could have seen his shoes.
He had amazing shoes on.
He's a very stylish guy.
Oh my gosh, yeah, super stylish, very stylish guy.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
I talk about how he seemed to have just burst on the
scene in the real estate world,and it might be because he you
know it was very stylish and hasbeen dressing that way since he
came into real estate, probablylong before that too.
Um, but uh, that might be why Iremember him so distinctly is
because his style is reallyimpeccable.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, and you know he's fostered his I hate to use
the word brand, but you knowthat's been in his forethought
as as he transitioned from themusic uh, you know that's been
in his forethought as as hetransitioned from the music uh,
you know and producer role to uh, commercial real estate yeah
and I don't know.
I think that's uh, for fromsomebody like me who just

(01:36):
doesn't, I don't have any senseof style.
I do really appreciate that andwhen I see it I'm like, oh,
maybe I should do that.
I know I won't.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, it is a brand.
I mean you shouldn't hate touse that word because you know
realtors who are developing abook of business absolutely need
to be, you know, have theirbrand at the forefront of their
mind and kind of, you know, havethat govern a lot of what they
do.
So it absolutely is a brand andhe does.
Well.
He also has the ability to backit up, For sure he's not all

(02:07):
just show, yeah, for sure.
Wonderful conversation aboutreal estate and about Chicago,
Chicago land and how he's reallytrying to, you know, change the
landscape in areas that havesuffered from disinvestment.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah.
Uplifting conversation and alsointeresting conversation about
the music business yeah, reallyinteresting from the kind of
publisher IP side of things thatI have never thought about yeah
, did you know?

Speaker 1 (02:34):
you can broker music, you can broker real estate, you
can broker music and.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I'm beginning to think you could broker just
about anything.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Moses is gonna tell us about those two things at
least yeah, just about anything.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Moses is going to tell us, about those two things
at least.
Yeah, yeah.
So now you as listeners willalso get to know.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Moses Hall.
Well, we're here today withMoses Hall.
Thanks, moses, for joining us.
Thanks for having me, can you?
What's the name of your?
What's the full name of yourcompany?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Full name of my company is Mohawk Commercial and
Urban Development Nice.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
I didn't want to get that wrong.
You got it right, all right asthe man m-o-h-a-l-l.
Yeah, you say mohall yeah okayis that what you prefer, to go
by mo?

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I can go by either or moses or mo, whatever you feel,
me too, I uh depending on whenyou met me, it's andy or andrew.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Sometimes I'm in between.
I used to just say andy andrew,which is not actually what I
want you to call me, buthyphenated yeah.
So what do you prefer to go by?
Um, to be honest, look kind oflike your answer.
I don't don't really have apreference.
Um, you know, professionallyit's Andrew.
But yeah, I mean, if we'rehanging out and having beers,

(03:47):
it's Andy.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Sounds good to me.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
So, listen, I used to be a little bit more active in
the associations.
You know, the sort of ebbs andflows of of this company have
have put me in that sort ofsphere a little bit more than I
am now.
I'm sort of heading back thatdirection.
But you know, it seemed to me,you know, because I was
attending more of those events,all of a sudden you were there
and all of a sudden you were,you know, part of the leadership
team, and I'm sure it didn'treally happen that way.

(04:20):
But am I imagining that?
Or like, did you just kind oflike burst on to, kind of burst
on to the real estate scene?

Speaker 3 (04:27):
You know, your imagination is not playing
tricks on you.
So when I first got into theindustry I was not privy to the
leadership, volunteer side ofthings and I went to a YPN Young
Professionals Network event, abreakfast program, and that kind

(04:48):
of exposed me to the leadershipside of the industry.
Initially, when I got in Ithought it was just get a leech
or a property, close a deal andthat's it yeah.
But realizing how impactfulthese leadership roles to our
industry is, it prompted me toget involved and so my first
leadership committee that Ijoined was the Young

(05:09):
Professionals Network for theChicago Realtors.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
That's great.
It's been a springboard for alot of professionals and a lot
of real estate professionals andreal estate leaders.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
So did you and Ian meet there?

Speaker 1 (05:21):
That was a different Young Professionals organization
.
That was the Young youngprofessionals of evanston uh
this is the young professionalnetwork, the chicago realtors,
the chicago realtors which, Ibelieve, started not that long
ago.
Yeah, I mean I think correct meif I'm wrong like matt laracy.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah, they were like the original cool kids of the
group and uh, like you said,from there it has grown over the
years.
But initially I did not sign upto volunteer for these things,
and so once I kind of startedthere then it just kind of took
me all the way to the top.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Nice, and what committees are you on now?

Speaker 3 (05:59):
So I currently serve as a board of director with the
Chicago Association of Realtors.
So I currently serve as a boardof director with the Chicago
Association of Realtors, so Iserve there.
I also serve as the committeechair for the commercial form of
the Chicago Realtors, socommercial form is a committee
for commercial professionals.
You do not have to be a memberof the Chicago Realtors to be a

(06:21):
part of this committee, but weare a committee comprised of
real estate professionals thatfocus on commercial real estate
and we come together to advocatefor the industry and also to
put on educational events forour members.
Oh nice, that's great.
Yeah, what kind of events doyou guys do?
We do have a event coming upnext week where we're going to

(06:44):
be talking about the transfertax ordinance and also we're
going to be talking aboutaffordable housing, how to
become a developer in that spaceand the tax credits that are
available to developers.
So, yeah, we're trying to justeducate our members.
As you guys may be aware or maynot be aware, there was a

(07:05):
lawsuit brought by the BOMAAssociation that pretty much
challenged that transfer tax,and the courts agreed and they
will not count that towards thenext voting ballot.
So, yeah, so we're going tojust be talking about things
that are just happening in theindustry that impacts your
business, and then how toovercome some of those

(07:26):
challenges.
The reason that they'reproposing the transfer tax
increase is because they'retrying to fight homelessness and
also create affordable housing,and so we want to bring in an
expert to talk about what thatlooks like, how to create
affordable housing and what taxcredits are out there to make
the deals make sense.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is there any discussion around the idea that
there's so many commercialproperties that are storefronts
and whatnot that are vacant nowafter COVID and so many homeless
people who need housing thatlike the conversion of that not
just, hey, go buy a multi-unit.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Right, and so there is conversation of that.
We know that there are a fewbad actors out there that may
purposely keep their commercialstorefronts vacant because there
is a tax benefit for that, butmajority of people are striving
to fill their commercialvacancies, and so we're just

(08:24):
trying to bridge that gap.
That's a win-win on both sides,and I guess that's where kind
of the piece comes in.
How can we make the deal makesense from a numbers perspective
but also have social impact tothose that actually need housing
?

Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think we struggle with that as property managers.
Our clients are the propertyowners, correct, but our
customers are the tenants andyou know, oftentimes it's the
tenants that are most impactedby I don't want to say they're,
you know there's oftentimesstruggling to make ends meet,

(09:04):
right, correct.
Want to say there, you knowthere's oftentimes struggling to
make ends meet, right, correct.
And Karen, you talk about thisa lot.
You know where.
You know, when you first cameinto property management, you
were certainly felt empathy fortenants, but as you've gone on
in the business it's sometimesyour empathy dwindles because a

(09:24):
lot of people are struggling tomake their rent but a lot of
people are just taking advantageof the scenario.
How do you sort of bridge thatgap?
Because I know you do a lot ofwork with investors, work with
developers and you're trying tobring development I don't want
to put words in your mouth intocommunities that have struggled

(09:45):
with this investment.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Correct.
Yeah, I think one of thechallenges is just policies that
are proposed that just does notmake the numbers make sense.
And one of those challenges is,you know, we look at expenses,
your property management, yourproperty management.
If your water bill increases,if this increases.
That increases at a certainpoint.

(10:12):
These property owners arehaving these properties for
investment purposes to make aprofit.
If they're upside down becauseof taxes and water bills and
other utility costs, where doesthat cost go?
It goes to the tenants andthat's what makes sometimes
housing unaffordable.
And, truthfully speaking, forChicago to be the third largest
major city in the US, our rentprices are not too bad compared

(10:39):
to New York and California youknow, where you can still get a
two, three bedroom, depending onthe area, for $1,200, $1,300.
I know I'm speaking justgenerally, but in New York those
prices are like $3,000, $4,000a month.
So a lot of it is just tryingto understand how to bridge that

(11:02):
gap.
Obviously, investors,developers, they're looking to
make some form of profit.
They're in the business to makemoney, and then on the other
side of it is we want to providequality housing and so the way
we kind of bridge that istapping into grants, TIF monies,
government subsidies to makethese deals make sense,

(11:27):
subsidies to make these dealsmake sense.
But it's not.
I think there's a misconceptionthat all landlords are
billionaires.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Right, oh, 100%, totally.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
And we forget about the mom and pop that may have
owned a two, three unit and theyrent it out.
And we think we forget aboutthat segment of the market.
And when you kind of putcertain legislation in place,
they can't eat those costs Right.
You know, maybe the billionaireREIT firm you know they can

(11:54):
handle.
But, like you said, there areprofessional tenants that
unfortunately take advantage ofthe system and when that mom and
pop owner that don't have thefunds because they're living
paycheck to paycheck too, right,right, right.
So I think it's just aboutbridging the gap with policies
that it's a win on both sides.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
I love that.
I wanted to step back just fora second.
Sure, you know, you, as youmentioned, you kind of burst
onto the scenes, but it wasn'tjust in the sort of leadership
perspective.
I mean, you must have had somesuccess with your real estate
career to kind of give you thatgumption to become a leader

(12:36):
within the industry.
Is that true?
I mean, did you have goodsuccess right away in terms of
your day to day?
Were you sort of on yourbrokerage side?

Speaker 3 (12:47):
to day, have you been sort of on your brokerage side?
Well, it definitely took me aminute to kind of jump on the
scene, but I did build a namefor myself and a brand for
myself prior to getting intoreal estate.
Prior to getting into realestate, I was very heavy in the
arts.
I also ran an event space.
Actually, that's how I kind ofgot my name, mo hall, because
prior to getting into realestate I ran an event space and

(13:09):
I called it mo hall.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Loss love it of that nice so you built up kind of
your sphere of influence, asthey would say already.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
So when you switched into real estate you had yes, I
was kind of a respectedprofessional and just carried
that brand and just kind ofrepackaged it into real estate.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Very nice.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Do you still have the event space still around?

Speaker 3 (13:31):
No, no, no, I gave that up to totally focus on
building out my commercial realestate business, and so that's
really have been the priority ofmy day-to-day operations.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
What areas in Chicago do you see the most opportunity
for improvement?
And then I guess a follow-up tothat is you know what are some
communities that have alreadysort of seen that improvement
and have kind of set goodexamples for what could be
possible for those areas thatstill have a ways to go be
possible for those areas thatstill have a ways to go.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
A lot of areas in the city of Chicago that have been
blighted over the years areprimarily on the south and west
sides of Chicago and we cantotally see that when the Cook
County tax sales occurs,Primarily a lot of these tax
sales occur in these communities, meaning typically they're

(14:29):
vacant, run down and have beenleft and not taken care of, and
we see a lot of highconcentration of these tax sales
on the south and west sides.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
So these are property taxes that haven't been paid.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
They've been paid, sometimes abandoned, they're run
down and different things ofthat nature.
So there's a lot ofopportunities there and we're
seeing these certain communitiesmake a comeback.
On the South Side we're seeingthe Bronzeville community, where
people have realized that it'snot far from the downtown area,

(15:03):
close to the lake.
There's public trends there andthe property values have been
going up very quickly over theyears and there's some new
developments coming.
I know they're talking aboutwhere the old Michael Reese
Hospital was there.
So there's a lot of differentthings that are happening kind

(15:24):
of in the bronzeville community.
The one thing I do notice aboutchicago it is a block by block
thing.
One block you'll see propertyvalues for seven, eight hundred
thousand.
The next block it shoots downto two, three hundred and you
can look at the dynamics andtell what hasn't hit yet, just
even a.
A prime example the South Loop.

(15:45):
The South Loop over the years,to my understanding, people
wouldn't go past South ofRoosevelt and to see the
development kind of push all theway back.
Now to C, the Bears are talkingabout building a new stadium in
the South Loop.
So there's a lot of developmentgoing on in those areas.

(16:12):
Communities that used to beblighted run down, and now we're
seeing the city take an effortto rebuild these communities.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
What would that year?
I mean, you're involved in thatredevelopment.
But if you could wave a wand, Imean how much would you be
involved?
What would your role inredevelopments?
But you know, if you could wavea wand, I mean how much would?

Speaker 3 (16:31):
you be involved, like what would your role in in you
know, redeveloping those areaslook like?
Well, a lot of the work that Ikind of do are more smaller
communities.
In terms of the work that I do,I work a lot more so in the
South suburbs that are reallystruggling right now because of
taxes.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Which suburbs would you say?

Speaker 3 (16:50):
I mean right now.
A big suburb that's reallystruggling right now is
Hazelcrest in terms of propertytaxes, but the South suburbs in
general.
If you pull up certain propertytaxes of homes in the South
suburbs that may market valuemaybe $150,000.
And then you compare a home inthe West suburbs like Naperville

(17:14):
that may be worth $600,000,$700,000.
They'll have the same amount ofproperty taxes bill due and so
those communities are taking ahuge, huge beating where people
cannot afford those propertytaxes.
So I'm coming in working withthe municipalities, doing

(17:35):
consultant work, seeing what wecan do for developers to come
and develop in terms of housing,also commercial, to alleviate
some of that tax base.
So that's kind of the work thatI'm doing on a day-to-day basis
.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Nice.
We manage some properties inthose areas on behalf of you
know our clients and yeah, Imean a lot of them have decided
to, or they you know where theywould be looking to buy more
homes, and maybe this is sort ofantithetical to what you're
trying to do, but just to sortof follow up on your point.

(18:11):
I mean they have chosen not tobecause the taxes just make it,
you know, unpalatable.
They can't rent it enough, youknow, to cover the tax space.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Exactly and, like you said, I try to get ahead of the
curve and I try to consultthese municipalities, especially
with the tax bill that justcame out.
I know people don't have enoughmoney in escrow and so you know
people's mortgage payments maybump up four or five hundred
dollars with the new taxacceptance and so you know

(18:42):
people come in and build thosecommercial corridors to
alleviate some of the tax burdenon the residential side but
also make it lucrative fordevelopers to come in so we can
tap into the TIF district andother Cook County incentives to
revitalize some of theseabandoned buildings that have
been in the South Suburbs.

(19:02):
So that's kind of really myfocus on the day-to-day.
The South Suburbs are justgetting hit, hammered really
badly.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Have you had good reception from these
municipalities of what you'retrying to do?

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Yeah, it depends.
It depends it's stillgovernment so it can be as
challenges.
But, like you said once, youkind of spell it out and you
show them what the market wouldbear.
Sometimes it's because a lot oftimes it may have to go to a
trustee board to vote on.
You have to present what theideas are, what the development

(19:38):
is and different things of thatnature.
So it has its challenges butoverall has been a very
receptive part of it.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
What would you say?
You know we talked a little bitabout this last night.
What would you say sort of your, you know, personal mission
statement is and also, if that'sthe same as your business or if
it's different, what's themission statement of your
business?

Speaker 3 (19:58):
Yeah, pretty much.
My mission statement is torevitalize historically excluded
communities, revitalizehistorically excluded
communities, and so my goal isto really focus on social impact
while creating revenue andprofits at the same time.
I think there's a disconnect,that you can't do both, and I

(20:19):
feel like there's an opportunityto combine both, where we can
still have a social impact tothe community but we can also
show that this community can beprofitable.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Is there a particular project that you're proud of
that you are at liberty to talkabout?

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Stuff is still in the works.
Like I said, a lot of this whenyou're talking about
development municipalities,you're still talking about a
couple of years out because youstill have to get zoning,
approvals, trustee things andall that type of stuff.
So there are still projects I'mworking on in the South Suburbs
that are still, you know, inworks.
One thing I will I can saybecause I think it's public
knowledge Hazel Christ does havea initiative to revitalize one

(20:59):
of their commercial corridors tothe arts districts, similar to
like what Pilsen did.
So you know, kind of working onthat type of initiative,
working with art organizationsand bringing the arts community
to the South suburbs.
You know me coming from thearts background, my peers and
colleagues that live in theSouth suburbs they often
complain hey, we have to alwayshave to come to the city,

(21:20):
there's nothing in the suburbsfor us to do.
So those type of initiativesare the things that you know
typically I work on.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
That's amazing.
I mean, because so many peopleare focused on bloody
communities in terms of theirfood, desert, right, and I mean
not that that's not an issue,correct, but they should.
You know, like you know, Ithink the removal of theater is
very encouraging, correct, youknow?
Remind me, is that inBronzeville?
Yeah, bronzeville.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yeah, Bronzeville.
Yeah, they do have a projectgoing on.
I believe it's on Cottage Grove, where they are taking a
building and doing theater.
They're trying to revitalize, Ibelieve, one of the actors from
the movie the Five Heartbeats.
He's from Chicago and he's apart of that project as well on

(22:08):
Cottage Grove.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
So, yeah, they do have an initiative to bring a
theater back in Bronzeville.
I mean, just as important asobviously staples such as food,
is very important.
But having culture and creatingan environment where people
have things to do and want tolive.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's very important, especially in suburbs, because
you can so easily get reallyisolated.
And it's Netflix or nothing,correct.
And to have a community theaterdown the street take your
family, take your kids.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Meet a whole gaggle of people.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
So I'm an idealist, you know.
I always think of you know interms of and then this I think
serves me well, often doesn'tserve me in terms of business,
but you know, I often think ofyou know in terms of unlimited
resources.
You know, for example, I wouldlove to start a program here,

(23:29):
you know, at B Realty Management, to engage all of our tenants,
sort of, on the benefits ofhomeownership.
You know, and a company wedon't have unlimited time or
unlimited resources to launchthat.
Are there any programs that youoffer your tenants or any sort
of thought that you know yousuggest to your clients who are
developers, to sort of uplifttheir tenants?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
So typically I like to stay engaged with local city
offerings.
There's typically a lot of Cityof Chicago offers a lot of
business trainings.
Also grant programs I believethe prior administration, I
believe it's continuing.
They had what was called the Ibelieve it's continuing.
They had what was called theNeighborhood Opportunity Fund

(24:08):
Grant which gave grant money tosmall business owners or
businesses in general anopportunity to purchase
facilities and also do therenovation.
I believe it was like the granttier was like up to $250,000.
And then you could requestabove that, depending on your

(24:28):
project.
So essentially to your questiondo I offer classes or
educational Typically?
I'm in tune with the city ofChicago where I do a lot of my
work, and they haveorganizations or CDFIs that
offer educational courses,access to grant money, different
things like that, and I also,you know, kind of steer my

(24:50):
clients to that, to thoseinformational sessions.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
How do you keep abreast of those types of
programs?

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Typically just my network.
Sometimes people may post stuffon Facebook or you can sign up
for, you know, a newsletter.
So I, you know constantly, aregetting updates of what's going
on in the city of Chicago.
I believe they just announcedthat they are going to continue
the reimagining LaSalle Streetdowntown office district that
the prior administration hadstarted.

(25:18):
So different things like thatkeeps me abreast and I try to
share that information with myclients so they'll know what's
out there and resources they cantap into to expand their
business.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
That's amazing.
I think it's such an importanttool that a broker has to really
sort of have all of thatinformation at their disposal.
But given that everybody has alimited amount of time and
resources, sometimes it doesn'tfit a broker's business to
really be up to date with thosethings, but it's so super

(25:49):
helpful to bring those ideas toyour clients.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Do you have a website or how do you disseminate that
information?

Speaker 3 (25:56):
So oftentimes I do email blasts.
I do have a website and so I'llput certain you know grants or
city happenings out there fordevelopers.
I also have information.
I do retail leasing and officeleasing and so I have
information and resources outthere.
What type of lease is to lookout for?

(26:17):
What this means?
Just pretty much a resource forpeople looking for information.
So that is on my website and Ialso do an email blast with that
information.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Nice, great.
What's your website?

Speaker 3 (26:27):
It is wwwmohallcommercialudcom.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
All right, I'll put that in the show notes.
Thank you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
You're active on social media?
Yes.
Is that how you generate a lotof buzz for your business or get
a lot of clients that way?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yes, I think social media is a great tool, a free
tool, to use to help grow yourbusiness.
Also, for me, being incommercial real estate, linkedin
is a very good tool becausetypically, commercial real
estate is business to businessand LinkedIn is a great platform
for that, and I love how thatyou can get the metrics.

(27:06):
You can reach people, engagepeople, people that you normally
wouldn't have access to.
They're literally on LinkedIn.
You can reach out and generatebusiness that way as well.
So I definitely love socialmedia.
I do not depend on social media.
I'm not sure if you guys wereon social media earlier, but we
did have a blackout.
So, Facebook and Instagram wasdown for like a couple of hours

(27:29):
earlier this morning, and so Idid not know that.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Wow, people were probably freaking out, yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
So that's just a way to let us know do not rely.
But it is an avenue to generatebusiness or brand awareness.
But it is an avenue to generatebusiness or brand awareness.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Any advice for you know I deal with the property
management side of our brokerageAny advice that you would like
to sort of let people know?
As far as either?
You know, our clients aremostly residential investors.
Yeah, what would you tell them?

(28:10):
As far as you know, maybe theoutlook that you have for what
investments are going to be likein 2024 for Chicago.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
Well, the biggest piece of advice that I can offer
is sign up with Be RealtyProperty Management and I know
you guys laugh, but in allseriousness, investors do not
realize how important propertymanagement is.
You guys are the lifeline, theheartbeat of these operations,

(28:36):
and I can totally see thedifference between a
well-managed property and aproperty that is forgotten about
.
And one of the things thatwe're kind of discussing right
now with Cook County taxes isthat sometimes they may want to
penalize you for being such agood property management company
in terms of property taxes,because they're going to be

(28:59):
assessing on how you operate,the profits you make, and you
know you can have two buildingsnext to each other, but you may
be paying a different tax rate.
One that manages it poorly getthat lower rate.
One that manages really goodmay pay a higher tax rate.
So, but moral of the story, Iget calls all the time of
frantic owners who did not havegreat property management in

(29:23):
place and their investments fellby the wayside.
So the one biggest piece ofadvice that I can give to
residential or investors ingeneral is make sure you have a
solid team and a solid propertymanagement company.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
It's good advice.
We certainly echo that advice.
It's hard.
I mean the property managementbusiness is very difficult.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
People think it's just.
Oh, you just knock on a door,you collect a rent check, you
fix a faucet here and there.
Oh my Lord almighty.
There's more to it.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
That's like the old, it's like what was the name of
the?
That's like the Mr Roper ofproperty management.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Right, right, it's like.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Three's Company reference.
But well, Moses, thank you.
We're going to take a quickbreak and then come back and
talk about uh, you know yourlove of music sounds good to me
oh, andrew, hi karen, knock,knock yeah, who's there?
Who's there?
I dare, I dare to ask oh, it isa record of the week.

(30:22):
Record of the week.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Record record of the week do you have a record of the
week Record of the week Recordrecord record of the week.
Do you have a record of theweek?

Speaker 1 (30:29):
I do.
Yeah, in our typical fashion,it's not a new record, but it is
one that we haven't talkedabout and, oddly, it's new to me
.
I've long been a fan of theband Tool, but I saw a headline
recently that they're working ona new album because they feel
like they're running out of timein some respects, which is

(30:51):
makes me old, because they'vefirst came out with undertow in
the early nineties, which was avery important record in my
youth.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Really.
Yeah, I'm very surprised tohear that actually.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Why?
Because I like noodley jam bandmusic well, sure there's that,
but you're also just such a nice, uplifting, happy guy like yeah
, well, this was early 90s, Imean, you gotta remember, like
you know, I was influenced bywhat was playing on the radio.
So, like I mean, I listened toa lot of Rage Against the

(31:26):
Machine and Nine Inch Nails andTool and Metallica and Guns N'
Roses and, like you know, all ofthat.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Wow, it's like a dark shadow side of you that I did
not know about.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Well, nowadays I am listening to like way more dark
music, so, and also more metaland more punk, and I don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
What's happening with you?

Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know, I actually think I'm becoming more like
myself, which is odd.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Tell me, what does that mean to you?

Speaker 1 (31:59):
I think that I'm sort of rediscovering, you know,
sort of the I'm veering back tothe path and to the person that
I was, you know, when I kind ofgot knocked off in my youth just
due to childhood stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
I see that's nice.
It sounds like it feels good toyou.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
It does feel very good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feelsgreat and, oddly, my musical
tastes are kind of veering backthat direction.
So I listened to Tool.
I had a really good friend whowas also into Tool.
I've been to two Tool concerts.
One of the last concerts I wentwith him was, I think, the last
concert I went with him to wasa Tool show.

(32:39):
He sadly passed away, but theyput on an amazing show and yet
it's not a band that I've reallyfollowed that closely, and so,
like I saw that they were comingout with a new album, like, oh,
let me check out some of theirother stuff.
And so their last album theyput out in 2019 was an album
called Fear Inoculum, and it'snothing like Undertow, which is

(33:02):
not surprising.
I feel like a lot of times,bands first albums are nothing
like what they end up being.
Yeah, you know, yeah, like, uh,pablo honey, for example.
That's exactly what I wasthinking.
I love pablo honey, I also loveundertow, but fear inoculum is
just like a complete just, Idon't know, it's just like a

(33:22):
powerhouse of an album.
It's kind of like metal.
You know jammy metal.
Just, you know intricate songsthat take you on a journey that
leave you with energy in yourstomach.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Love it.
It was well-regarded.
So Fear Inoculum was nominatedfor a Grammy for Best Rock Song
and 7 Empest.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
I don't also equate them with metal, but I guess I
haven't listened to a lot oftools.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, I mean again, I think the undertow wasn't
necessarily metal, but I mean itwas sort of dark-ish, metal-ish
Kind of in the way, likeMetallica's.
You know, black album doesn'treally feel like a metal album.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
But anyway, that's cool.
So what made you rediscoverthis?

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, I saw that they're coming out with a new
album.
I'm like you know, I need toget you know.
I don't know, I just like putit on Spotify and kind of went
through their catalog and thiswas the one of the albums that I
didn't know at all that I likedthe best.
So recommendation for a fearinoculum by tool by tool.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
We're back here with Moses.
How are you doing?
Having a good time, I'm havinga wonderful time.
Yeah, so you know we're we'regoing to talk a little bit more
about music in this segment andI kind of wanted to work
backwards.
It looks like to me, like youknow, in doing some research
you're investing in music andkind of sort of playing off of

(34:59):
your early experience, whereyou're trying to place that
music whose rights you now owninto some commercial uses.
Did I get that right?
So?

Speaker 3 (35:09):
you got the idea.
You got the idea.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
That's why.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
I'm here.
Yeah, that's right.
Give me more information.
Fill us in.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
You're the one being interviewed.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
But to break it down in layman terms, what I do on
the music publishing side, it'spretty much like how you guys
represent residential investors.
Pretty much I'm an investor,but on intellectual property,
and instead of analyzing a realestate asset, I'm analyzing a

(35:40):
music asset, and so what I lookat is the performance of it over
the years, the money that'scollecting where it's playing
radio, play streaming numbers,all those different things, and
based on those numbers I canmake an offer to say, hey, I
will buy the rights to thispublishing for X, y and Z dollar

(36:02):
amount.
Wow.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
So per song you hear a song.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
It can be per song, it can be per catalog, it can be
.
There's so many differentarrangements to what that looks
like.
I do it more on a smaller scale.
There are REIT firms that haveraised a billion dollars.
I'm pretty sure you've heard inthe headlines Justin Timberlake
sales is publishing for ahundred million.

(36:27):
Of course I'm not doing it atthat scale.
But there are the people that Itypically kind of work with are
local songwriters that may havegotten a placement or a hit
with a well-known artist.
Just because they have a coupleof hits doesn't mean that
they're filthy millionaires.
It just all depends on thelevel and dynamic.

(36:50):
But for me, as an investor, Ican purchase the rights to this
publishing for a certain termand it's like collecting rental
money.
I don't have to deal with anyevictions.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
I don't have to serve any notices.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Andrew.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
I think we need to pivot.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
So let's get Ian and Joe and Micah on the board.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
Right, so I'm collecting money on the back end
, and the benefit for asongwriter is that they get a
lump sum up front, and so theycan pretty much get an advance
on the money that they wouldhave earned, and then some, and
then I an advance on the moneythat they would have earned, and
then something, and then I getit on the back end.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
And you said it's for a specific amount of time, it
can be.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
It can be Sometimes certain artists or songwriters
will give certain rights for acertain length of time, or
sometimes it can be for liferights.
There are certain songs that Ihave collecting publishing
rights for, but it's only for aterm of 10 years.
And then there are certainsongs that I have life rights.

(37:54):
So I will continue to own itforever and ever and then do you
have any say in in the life ofthe song after you, after you
buy it as far as putting it outthere and getting more so my
role is a limited role, I don'tnecessarily, because you can
only make money on songs thatsomeone is actively pitching or

(38:16):
actively getting out there.
So my role is just more so on apassive investor side.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
But how do you find them?
How do you-.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
There's different, there are same way.
There's real estate brokers,there's brokers out there that
will pitch certain catalogs andsay you know, Sun Sol is looking
to sell.
This is how it's beenperforming for the last maybe
three or five or ten years,whatever the song is, and you
can make an assessment on themultiple that you're looking for

(38:48):
and kind of go from there Inever even thought about that,
ever.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
This is fantastic, yeah, so that's.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
but now because wall street has gotten hip and there
are a lot of people, the markethas gotten a little bit
saturated and so the investmentsI haven't really made an
acquisition lately, just becausethe numbers are just.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Meaning the music market.
There's so much music out thereor there's so many investors
who are institutional investorsthat are inflating the numbers.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
One of my contacts that I do have a rapport with is
the firm that facilitated thesale of the Michael Jackson
estate and so you know, a lot oftimes they sent out a yearly
report on the large acquisitionsand sales that have occurred

(39:36):
and you can kind of see kind ofit's almost like comps, getting
comps of where the market is atand so yeah, so it's big
business.
Like I said, reit firms havegotten hip to it.
One of the larger firms, it'scalled Hypnosis.
They're based out of London andthey have been going crazy in

(39:56):
terms of acquisition of people'scatalogs.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
So Now are they approaching it the same way
where they're sort of passive,or are they trying to-.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
No, they play more of an active role in terms of
acquiring and pitching, becausethey have a whole department and
people that their sole job isthat.
There may be certain dealswhere they may be a passive
because, uh, you know, a lot ofthe details are not public.
So when people say, oh,so-and-so sold their royalties

(40:27):
or publishing, they may revertback to them or they may only
have 50 ownership and you know.
So it all depends.
Like, um, the producer jermainedupree just uh performed at the
Super Bowl with Usher.
I know that in his earlier days, when he was signed and record
label, he didn't get hispublishing.

(40:49):
But I think they revert after25 or 30 years.
I think it's coming on thatyearly amount.
So he'll start getting hispublishing now.
So that's what I'm saying.
It depends on the terms, itdepends on all the all the uh
details.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Well, it's interesting too, because I mean
in the age of social media orjust our limited attention span
as a world, now you know, ifyou're you're looking for maybe
a rising star.
Rising star may shoot up andthen fizzle out in a year, or
you could be looking for thenext you know, paul McCartney

(41:24):
catalog that you know who isthat artist that's going to last
that long where it appreciatesand value, decades from now, Is
that like how do you, how do?
You navigate what you'relooking for.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
You know what the industry has changed so much.
It's really hard to identifythat because outside of music
you also have to know thebusiness.
And a lot of artists that fallby the wayside is because they
didn't know the business and howto strategically brand
themselves.
And I mean taking a page out ofTaylor Swift.

(41:57):
I mean just amazing in terms ofher market share and what she's
been able to do.
And so, like I said, in the ageof social media, a lot of
record labels they don't look todiscover that new artist.
Now, like A&R has changed, theylook for the person that's
already happening and then theymay offer a partnership deal

(42:19):
like someone like Chance, theRapper from Chicago.
He's independent but he signeda lot of major deals partnered
with Apple and other brands likethat.
But that happened once he tookoff.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Right right.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
Very interesting and is that because artists do have
the opportunity to putthemselves out there more
because of social media andother, you know, self-publishing
?

Speaker 3 (42:44):
I guess it's still a business and record labels just
don't want to take risk anymore,especially the way that our
society has changed in terms ofstreaming there's no more buying
albums and different thingslike that so record labels are
taking less risk and going withproven business models.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Do you think that'll change anytime soon?

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Not necessarily.
I know record labels arefighting for streaming Right now
.
The streaming payout,especially to artists, is
terrible right now.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah it has been for.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
And we see certain companies pulling their music
off of platforms like TikTok anddifferent things of that nature
.
So we're seeing atransformation.
Honestly, I mean the musiclicensing side of the business
has gotten just a little bitsaturated, but there's still
opportunity, because think abouthow much content is out there,
and so what I mean by musiclicensing when there is music

(43:42):
placed in the background of anyvisual, you can get a check.
So if you're watching yourfavorite reality TV show and you
hear a beat in the background,you're turning in, tuning in and
watching the Super Bowl and youhear a little music in the
commercial break somebody'smaking money off of that and you
hear a little music in thecommercial break.

(44:02):
Somebody's making money off ofthat.
And I've seen where indie bandscan get their song placed in
like a title and all commercial,maybe a 30-second bit and
they'll get a $50,000 check.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah, it used to be called selling out and now bands
are like no, I could use$50,000.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
And that'll probably be more than what you see in any
other revenue source.
Music-wise and a lot ofindependent artists have been
able to build their brandsgetting placed in video games
like.
Rockstar, can you imaginegetting your song placed in
Grand Theft Auto?

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
What does that do for you?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
as an artist.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
So there are definitely different ways to
build an audience, to have arevenue stream, and one of those
ways is licensing your music.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Now, when you were kind of deciding what to do with
your career.
I mean, did you ever thinkabout making that your full-time
?

Speaker 3 (44:54):
gig.
I definitely wanted to be thistop music executive and you know
, just because I've always beengood at business and I wanted to
combine my actual musicknowledge.
You know, because I thinksometimes there's a disconnect.
You have creatives that youknow, know their craft, and then

(45:16):
you have the business thatdon't, you know, doesn't
understand the craft, andthere's often a disconnect.
So for the fact that I can tellyou okay, that's C minor.
And then I can tell you, hey,that budget is not going to
produce the ROI that we'relooking for.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
There's not many people who probably have that.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
So I was definitely looking to combine, you know,
those skill sets.
I know that the entertainmentindustry in general is
definitely going through a lotof changes in terms of culture
and lawsuits that are occurring.
So I'm definitely, you know,watching how all this unfolds in
terms of you know, just theculture of entertainment, things

(45:58):
that were acceptable back then.
However, with the new culturalmovements, I think a lot of that
has changed.
So it would be very interestingto see how the music shifts,
not just from a businessperspective, but also culturally
as well.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
There's lawsuits in both industries that you're
working in.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yes, Is there a benefit for people who, like you
said, I don't know.
Death Cab for Cutie has a songin the background of the latest
episode of Suits?
What does Suits get out of that?

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Well Suits, they need music.
I mean, can you imagine?

Speaker 2 (46:31):
But they could press AI and be like hey, write a song
based on the catalog of DeathCab and put it in for free.
Death Cabin, put it in for free.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
And I'm glad you mentioned that.
Ai is definitely transformingthe entertainment industry and
how we approach it.
I even seen Tyler Perry justhalted on expanding his film

(47:05):
studio down in Atlanta becauseof this new Sora, where you can
literally type out a scene andit will create that scene
visually video with dronefootage and all of this type of
stuff and so he halted thismultimillion dollar expansion on
his studio because of AI.
So I think everyone is kind ofsitting at the edge of their
chairs to see how AI changes theindustry.
But in normal circumstancesprevious circumstances let's
just say I have a scene and I'mthe.

(47:25):
You know, usually there's amusic supervisor over these
shows that are responsible forplacing music in every scene.
And so let's say, hey, I want aWilliam type of song here, like
I love Tonight's Gonna Be, youknow whatever.
But you know the Black EyedPeas say, hey, yeah, the place I
was songed is $100,000.

(47:46):
And you're like, yeah, that'snot our budget for that.
So what we may do is put out acall to an indie artist that has
a similar feel, similar message, and the budget may be $40,000,
$50,000.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
And so for them they're're saving money but
still conveying that samemessaging okay, so, and I would
also think that one of myfavorite shows is sex education
and the soundtrack is awesomeand I listened to it on spotify.
So there's probably a littlebit of uh, I don't know cred if
you have a good soundtrack toyour song or absolutely.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
And then the benefit for the artist is not just the
uh payout, but um also.
People are just gonna discovernew music.
I mean, they have apps for that.
Was it?
Shazam put it up?
Oh my god, I love that song,you know?
Oh, dude shazam.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
I bring that up all the time.
Shazam.
For those of who don't know ordon't have it, it is one of the
oldest apps in the world and itis one of the most magical.
You hold it up to any speakerin any room playing a song and
it will tell you what it is.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Karen, when we have our listening parties, she'll
like it's like an old Motorolaphone.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
She'll be like trying to hold up the phone so that it
can listen better.
The antenna on the roof yeah,the tinfoil.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Yeah, I'm like I don't think it works that way.
But you know, remarkably, whenshe does that she gets the song
piped into her phone quicker, soit seems to be working Well.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
I think Shazam, the way I envision it is, shazam's
got little ears and if the earsare picking up, your talking and
you're you know, doing thedishes you can't hear the music,
so you put it up to the speakerin the ceiling.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
I love the logic.
You're right and it might beright.
So you still play, youmentioned, but mostly just at
church.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I typically, um you know, play
every sunday at my local church.
What do you play?
I play, play piano.
Oh, nice.
And so occasionally, you know,if some of my friends need
someone to fill in on keys for apublic gig that they're doing,
they'll give me a call and I'llfill in.
But yeah, like I said, I'vekind of slowed down.
At one point when I was doingmusic full time, I was literally

(49:57):
gigging three, four times aweek nonstop.
You know type of thing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Was that with your band?
Was it Harmonious Dynasty?

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Harmonious Dynasty.
Yep, yeah, that was with myband.
We started in college they'restill my, you know, best friends
to this day Nice, and weliterally traveled all over
performing with one another,nice, performing with different
artists and just havingopportunities to expand our
musical ability.

(50:24):
So now, you know, obviouslywe're not active as a band, but
a lot of my band members aredoing some great things, like my
bass player.
He's out on tour with the bandcalled Tank and the Bangers.
They're from New Orleans, theywere on Tiny Desk and a few
other.
They've Grammy nominated.
So a lot of my peers, you knowthey're different tours and you
know going around the countrywith different artists.
So a lot of my peers, they'redifferent tours and going around
the country with differentartists.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
So yeah, what kind of music was that?

Speaker 3 (50:47):
R&B, soul, pop type of lane we would be in.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
And you started off.
It sounds like you had earlyjazz training.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yes, Well, I technically started off in the
church and then my parents putme in piano lessons at the age
of seven and from there I didvarious jazz programs.
I didn't go the classical route, but mainly studied jazz
performance and kind of tookthings from there.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Cool, I wish I'd taken jazz.
I can't even imagine teachingjazz as a young person.
I'm trying to learn it now asan adult.
Yeah, and I don't evenunderstand how they would even
teach.
I want to go back in time andbe in my high school jazz band.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
You know it's never too late.
I mean there's YouTubeUniversity out there, so I mean
you can learn everything onYouTube.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
What's the latest thing that you learned on
YouTube?

Speaker 3 (51:41):
You know what?
That is a good question.
I was looking up what was Ilooking up?
How to do.
Oh you know, I was looking uphow to play a song because my
church that I play at everySunday they had changed one of
the songs last minute and Ididn't have enough time to like
fully sit there and learn it, soI just pulled something up on
YouTube and learned it in threeminutes, right before they sung

(52:03):
it.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
So how did it go?

Speaker 3 (52:06):
It went well.
It went well.
But I definitely hate when theychange the songs last minute.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
So a lot of pressure.
What about your um?
I have to ask about yourchildhood school that you went
to.
Yes, very jealous of yes, youwent to yes.
Yes, I'm very jealous of yes,you went to the FAME School.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
FAME School.
So, yeah, if you were around inthe 80s, many of those in the
arts heard of the FAME School,and so I had the opportunity to
attend this magnificent school,this magnificent school.
Some of the notable alumni thatpreviously went to the school

(52:45):
is Jennifer Aniston, nicki Minaj, liza Minnelli, a few other,
omar Epps, the Wayne brothers,so we had quite a few notable
people that have attended thisschool.
So this is a school for thecreative arts.
You have to audition to get inand they have different
disciplines that you can focuson and study.
So I definitely had thatopportunity and back when I went

(53:08):
to high school it was literallysomething out of a movie.
You can walk out and seesomeone in the hallway playing
guitar, and so it was that typeof experience.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, if anyone wants to speaking of YouTube, go back
and watch some YouTube videosof of fame, the old show about
this high school.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
It was a TV show.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, it was a TV show.
It was called fame, I think itwas a movie.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, it was a movie, it was a movie too Fame.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
I'm going to live forever.
I'm going to learn how to fly.
Hi All right.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
She's got it.
She got it, oh my.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
God Every child in the 80s wanted to go to fame
school.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
So jealous.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
So can we come see you play?
I mean, can we come to yourchurch?

Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, I mean when I'm in town, that's the caveat.
Oftentimes I'm zooming in andout of the country, Actually.
So I'm gettingoming in and outof the country actually.
So I'm getting ready to leaveout of town to MIPM in France,
oh nice, so I represent theIllinois Realtors, so I'll be
leaving out this weekend forthat.
Yeah, yeah.
So when I'm in town, typically,yes, you can catch me there,

(54:18):
but oftentimes I'm, you know,zigzagging in and out of town.
But they're very understandingbecause I've pretty much been
there since I was in college, sothey give me that flexibility
to come in and out of town.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
What's the name of?

Speaker 3 (54:26):
it.
So actually I play for twoministries.
So I play for the New JoyBaptist Church and also Park
Manor Baptist Church.
They're a small congregation onthe south side of Chicago and I
definitely love going there andplaying there.
So, yeah, so when I'm in town,yeah, yeah, but uh, but yeah.
So that's, and occasionally,like you said, I may play, you

(54:47):
know, at certain venues downtownand, you know, with other bands
and things of that nature.
Nice.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I was doing some, uh, some research.
Uh, you know Moses and um, youknow a couple.
You mentioned two pastors thatwere important to your real
estate career or maybe just yourlife in general.
I just wanted to give you anopportunity to say some words
about Pastor Gigi, or PastorWilliams, if you wanted to.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.
So when I first got into theindustry here in Chicago, I met
a woman, Pastor Gigi.
I met her and her family at apolitical fundraiser event and

(55:33):
we just clicked and connectedand her family, just like we,
just started laughing, having agood time and she was like you
know what You're going to be myrealtor.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
She literally said it , just like that just started
laughing, having a good time,and she was like you know what
you're gonna be my realtor.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
She literally said it just like that.
So her husband, they were likewe're gonna take you out to
dinner downtown michigan avenue,wherever you want to go.
And so they took me to dinnerand we had a good time and they
said you know, god told us tomake you our realtor, so we're
going to buy properties with you.
And sure enough, I bought andsold several properties with

(56:08):
them.
That's awesome.
Not only just their churchfacilities, because they had an
outreach ministry, so theyneeded industrial facilities for
their food that they sent overto different countries and the
ministry work they do here.
But they also own otherbusinesses, including daycares,
and so I helped them expandtheir daycare facilities and

(56:30):
then selling some of theirpersonal residences.
So I did a numerous number oftransactions with them over the
years and unfortunately, she hadan untimely passing.
And you know they just kind of,because one of the last times I
saw her we had just closed on afacility and you know she just

(56:52):
said some encouraging words tome and, like I said, I used to
be over for dinner and all thisstuff, so it was like she used
to call me her little brother.
That's amazing and yeah, so oneof the last times we saw her,
we had just closed on a propertyand then we were in the midst
of getting ready to buy anotherproperty and unfortunately she
had an untimely passing, so thatwas very, you know, unexpected

(57:14):
yeah right it kind of impactedme and so that was one, you know
, spiritual covering that I had.
I know you mentioned anotherpastor, pastor Williams.
Actually that is my pastor inNew York, the church that I grew
up in, the person that helpednurture my musical abilities and
my gifts.
And he also happened to be mygodfather, and so part of his

(57:38):
guidance and covering it wasthat he was also a developer in
a sense.
He ran one of the largest drugrehabilitation programs in
Harlem New.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
York.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Oh nice, Kanye West sampled from that choir that was
comprised of former addictsthat recovered and they went
over all over the country andthe world singing the gospel.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
And so my godfather was the CEO of that organization
and grew it and createdaffordable housing for low
income families, drug addicts,different things of that nature.
And one of the things that hesaid to me before transitioning
from New York to Chicago he saidyou go out to Chicago and you

(58:30):
change Chicago.
Don't let Chicago change you.
So that's one of the thingslife not only just when I was
growing up, but just also when Imoved here and so to have
people that look out for you andnot just pour into you but also
give you opportunities so thatyou can financially sustain, I

(58:50):
think it's just been a hugebenefit to my life.
That's lovely.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
They sound like really great people, absolutely.
I love that.
You know you change Chicago,don't let Chicago change you.
I think that's really goodadvice for everybody.
You know, because you know youchange Chicago, don't let
Chicago change you.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I think that's really good advice for everybody.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Absolutely Because you know it's a city, it can be
tough at times but if you comein with that attitude sort of
the John F Kennedy attitudeabout you know what you can do
for your city.
Yeah, and you know you're goingto come out on top.
You're going to change thelandscape.
Absolutely.
That's what you're trying to do, absolutely.
I'm sorry for your losses.

(59:25):
I appreciate that, but thankyou for sharing those stories.
Thank you Well, moses, this hasbeen a wonderful conversation.
Thank you so much for your timeand for being here today and
for talking about real estateand music and all of it.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Thank you, really a nice half and half.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Really a nice half and half yeah.
Very balanced interview, yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
You're like center cut.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Thanks for having me A flea, that's right.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, andrew.
Yes, karen, I have to ask you aquestion.
Okay, ask me a question.
Why do you choose to be anoptimist?
Well for god's sake, do youchoose to be an opt?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I don't think anybody chooses to be an optimist.
It's terrible.
Why would you, why would youchoose to have you know blinders
on all the time?

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
that's a good question.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
That's why I asked it well, I mentioned, you know,
kind of off air that I waslistening to, uh, reading um,
david copperfield.
And I'm at the section of thebook where, you know, david
copperfield is sort ofbefriended, or has befriended
this slightly older, moreworldly person who calls David

(01:00:42):
Copperfield Daisy, because he'sfresh as a daisy, because he's
just like completely earnest,and he thinks that this guy's
the same way.
But I think we're about to findout that he's not Spoiler alert
.
Well, I think in the episode Italked to Mo about being an
idealist, if that's what you'rereferring to, but I guess I also

(01:01:06):
am an optimist.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Yeah, I should have asked you why you are an
idealist, because that's what Imeant to ask you.
And I got those two words mixedup, that's fine, but you know,
let's just make them synonymous.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Yeah, I mean they're definitely closely related.
But to be honest, I don't knowif I could define idealist.
I call myself it.
I should know how to define it.
What do you think idealistmeans?

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
oh, she's an idealist , always thinking well, there's
always a better way or, you know, there's always room for
improvement.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Let's just look it up , let's do it.
Idealist, I mean because I aman optimist, because I always
think that the you know, I thinkthe best of every scenario,
right, mm-hmm, I'm, you know thehouse could be burning down.
I'm like, well, just this isfine because we can just rebuild
it Better.
Yeah, idealist definition Aperson who is guided more by

(01:02:07):
ideals than practicalconsiderations.
Yeah, so like I'm not apractical person, right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
I mean you would.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
That's 100% true, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
So, like I mean, well , you know what I talk about
with Mo is like I want todevelop something that you know
is virtually impossible.
You know, I want to developthis program for our tenants to
help them, you know, teach themabout, you know, home ownership.
But given time constraints,given money constraints, it's
just like that's not possible.
So a practical person will belike that's stupid because we

(01:02:41):
can't actually do it.
But me, I'm like okay, this is,this is an idea that exists.
I've had it.
Therefore, I need to, you know,give it credence.
It's important.
Um, therefore, I'm just gonnalet it live in my brain and hope
that someday, you know enoughresources exist to make it a

(01:03:01):
reality.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Have you had ideas like this in the past, where
that marination time has provedfruicious?
Yeah, yeah.
Good Lord, that's a great word.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
I love fruicious.
It's really great on jellosalad.
That's right, yeah, I mean I.
I think that most of what Ithink about for a long time
comes, you know, to fruitionlike changes in my health, or

(01:03:38):
like before I started meditatingI would.
I probably thought aboutmeditating for years before I
actually started to do it.
So you know, I think thatusually if I have an idea, I'm
patient because I'm an idealist.
I will wait for the opportunityto act on that thought.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Well, your partner Ian would say I don't know who
said it, george Washington, orsome quote by somebody famous
saying you know, if you give mesix hours to chop down a tree,
I'll spend the first fivesharpening my axe.
So maybe all those years ofbrain thinking about an idea is
just sharpening your axe, yeah,totally.
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
That's good.
It's funny you bring up Ian,because I mean, he is, you know,
thinks very differently from me.
In some ways.
That's why we're good partners,because he's I don't want to
say he's not an idealist, buthe's definitely way more
practical than I am.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Yeah, you come at it from different angles.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah, you're both manifesting and always moving
forward with things to make thembetter and make things happen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Which is probably why this company exists.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
At least why it's existed for 13 years.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
Why pessimism?

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
There we go.
Let's talk about that.
It's actually a valid question.
Well, I think there needs to bepessimism and optimism together
yeah, definitely because I love, like the, my.
My favorite partnerships,especially in business, have
been with people who I call my.

(01:05:22):
I call us the chess player andthe bulldozer.
Okay, so I'm the chess playerokay and the person I usually
team up with best is a bulldozerokay and they're all about
getting it done.
They're, you know, they movefast, they make a decision super
quickly they just you.
Yeah, just get it done.
Right, right, right.

(01:05:42):
And I'm the person who's likeWhoa wait, a second Wait if we
do this then, this other thing'sgoing to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
And then what about this?

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Right?
And what have you thought aboutthis other thing?

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
And so I have been, uh, pessimist, all that stuff
and I I will say, yeah, I, andmy glass is usually half empty.
But, um, I love to be provenwrong and I love hanging out
with optimists because it makesme realize like, oh, the world
is not doom and gloom.
But there are definitely many,many times where my not

(01:06:16):
premonitions, but my you know,my hesitation about just
barreling into something haveproven right.
I don't like to say I told youso.
So I try and take my pessimismto a place where it is just like
hey, let's think about this fora second, you know, let's slow

(01:06:37):
it down, but without grinding itto a halt, because I also
suffer if I'm alone and I don'thave that bulldozer.
It's analysis, paralysis.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
And yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Yeah, I think this is kind of playing out.
You know, I have stepped intothe role of leasing broker on
the property management team fora moment, management team for a
moment, and you know, I thinkthat division absolutely needed
some structure put to it, and so, for example, this analysis of

(01:07:13):
tenants that Clinton brought tobear has been really important
in terms of making sure that wedon't place tenants that are
just going to immediately getevicted.
Yeah, on the other hand, I thinkit has, you know, taken me to
kind of just be like no, youknow, we're going to keep

(01:07:34):
pushing forward, and not thatwe're not, not that we're going
to ignore that, because thatwould be silly.
It exists now and it's a goodtool, um, but there was a moment
recently where I was like thatdoesn't?
You know we're, we're doublecounting, sort of this aspect of
the you know tenants, credit,credit report, and so you know

(01:07:56):
you're giving people a worsescore than they really deserve,
and and so, like you know,because I was just sort of
pushing that through and gettingpeople pushed through the
system, you know both of those,you know, the yin and the yang
of pessimism and optimism sortof worked in concert to to kind

(01:08:19):
of create a good system.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Yeah, I think that's great and, uh, your mind,
because you also have a muchmore extensive background in
leasing, um, and you also have agood gut check.
So, um, yeah, balancing thatwith the hard and fast rules and
you know the score chart.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
So if anybody calls you a Debbie Downer again, tell
them to talk to me, becausethat's such a, you know, nasty
term.
But pessimism, that might bejust fine.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Yeah, there's a time and a place, right Okay, all
right.
So that's why pessimism.
And optimism.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
We'll leave on the optimism.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Okay, you should have gone second.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
This has been an episode of Records and Real
Estate.
Thanks for listening.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Today's episode was brought toyou by Be Realty.
Be where you want to be.
Be Realty.