Tom Lee's Architectural Symphony: Weaving Stories, Spaces, and Sustainability Into Urban Fabric

Imagine stepping into a world where every detail in the space around you is a result of thoughtful storytelling and functionality. That's the essence of our latest conversation with acclaimed architect Tom Lee. In this rich tapestry of personal experiences and professional insights, Tom takes us on a journey through his non-linear design philosophy—where a party mishap from the past becomes a poignant reminder of the significance of details in both life and architecture. We uncover the passion that drives his projects, from intimate residential spaces to the industrial elegance of a brewery's restaurant, all underpinned by a collaborative spirit with clients.

As we traverse the challenges of adaptive reuse, Tom's narrative brings to light the delicate balance between preserving history and embracing the future. In the heart of Wicker Park, a historic façade gets a modern heartbeat with cutting-edge comfort and energy efficiency. The conversation expands, contemplating the fates of underused office spaces in a world where work culture is rapidly changing. We reflect on the conundrum of high-rise office conversions and cast our eyes to the Thompson Center's restoration, pondering the interplay between maintaining architectural legacies and meeting tomorrow's needs.

Tom's own path, from aspiring doctor to architect, is a testament to the unpredictable nature of life and the compelling call of urban landscapes. From his internship with the legendary Helmut Jahn to his musings on the role of architecture in nurturing community spirits, his story is a beacon for future architects. We even explore the symphony between music and architecture—how both are conduits for memory and creativity. Join us for this immersive episode, where each chapter is a mosaic piece in Tom's grand vision of architecture as a canvas for stories, sustainability, and the soul of neighborhoods.

Have someone you think should be a guest on this podcast? Let us know! Email your suggestions over to: [e-mail], [e-mail]

Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group

Email the Show: [e-mail]

Guest: Tom Lee of Tom Lee Studio 

Link: Tom Lee Projects
Link: Tom Lee Linkedin
Link: Home Alone House
Link: Helmut Jahn
Link: Jahn Studio
Link: J.R Thompson Centre

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Records in Real Estate, a podcast about
well records and real estates.
You'll be entertained andinformed as we explore the
intersection of these two worldsthrough interviews with
Chicago's most interesting andsuccessful people from both
industries.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
That was Andrew Wendt and I'm Karen Sanvoss.
We are Chicago Real EstateBrokers, Property Managers, Avid
Music Lovers and your hosts ofRecords in Real Estate.
Andrew, Hi Karen, Hi Andrew,how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm well, thanks, good.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
We have Tommy Lee on today.
Tommy Lee, the infamous no.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
We have Tommy Lee.
Tommy Lee.
You know he has been calledTommy Lee in the past.
People that knew him back when,kind of like those that call me
Indie.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
And you knew him back when.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
I did.
Yeah, so a real funny Tommy Leestory.
So Tommy and I grew up in thesame neighborhood.
We were friends, you know.
I think I went to his birthdayparty, you know, when we were
like in kindergarten, and sothere were goodie bags provided,
and I guess they were providedat the beginning of the party.

(01:16):
One of the things in the goodiebag was this like big curly Q
straw.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, I love those.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
And you know, tom's mom very succinctly, clearly and
emphatically told all of thepeople, all of the kids, to not
put the straw in the glass ofmilk that was sitting in front
of you, because the glass ofmilk was a cup and it was short

(01:45):
and the straw was tall and verytop heavy.
And so what did I do?
Immediately you put it in themilk.
Yep, I went everywhere.
I was the only one that did notprocess that direction.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Was that a common thing with you?
Probably it wasn't an activedefiance, it was just oh no, no,
it was an obliviousness.
A straw milk done.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, I mean even I don't know if I just didn't hear
the words or didn't payattention to the words or didn't
heed the words.
But, I did what I was asked notto do.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, it sounds like you lived through that and
you're still friends.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, we are friends, for sure.
We reconnected three or fouryears ago.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
This is Mother Hate you.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
I've never asked him that question.
He didn't remember thatincident, so I doubt very
strongly that she remembers it.
I remember it, yeah, clear asday.
It's funny what we remember.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, what sticks.
But, this is a different avenuethat we went down today and the
world of architecture.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, it's a really, really fun conversation, very
interesting.
Tom is very bright, veryintrospective, did a great job
of tying the creativity ofarchitecture and music together
and, yeah, just a coolconversation.
Obviously he knows a lot aboutarchitecture, a lot about

(03:11):
Chicago architecture, and hasgreat opinions about Chicago in
general.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, it's a very lovely conversation, so let's
get into it.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Let's listen to it.
We're here with Tom Lee.
Hi, Tom Hi Hi.
Did you ever get mistaken forTommy Lee?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
No, though a lot of people know me that way just
because of my growing up orbeing young, and my parents call
me that.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
To me Nice.
I'm glad you asked that,because I was like, don't ask
him about Tommy Lee.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
He probably gets that all the time, right out of the
gate.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, thank you for joining us today.
Tom is an architect and I don'tknow like a high design
architect.
I mean, how would you describeyourself here?

Speaker 3 (04:02):
I would say I'm an architect that focuses on design
or a design led kind ofpractice and you're a sole
proprietor at this point.
I am.
I have my own independentstudio, though I collaborate
with a bunch of others, whetherthey're firms or people or
contractors so it allows me tostay agile and nimble and kind

(04:24):
of focus on projects that I wantto do versus ones that I might
have to do.
So it's nice to have a bit ofthe independence and I'm also
the father of two young kids, soit gives me more flexibility to
move around and to pick up anddrop off.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Nice, that's important.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
So the clients that you would like to take on versus
have to take on what are youdrawn to?
Who is your ideal client?

Speaker 3 (04:50):
I tend to gravitate towards clients and I think it
works both ways People who havean idea of what they're trying
to achieve or what they want todo.
They don't have the answer andthey're willing to go through
the process of discovering whatthat answer is.
So the design process can bevery linear, if you.

(05:12):
I think certain architects workthat way.
I tend to work in a morenonlinear way where, as we dig
in with any client of really anykind of typology, we start to
figure out oh, they showed methis image of what they wanted
to do, but that doesn't actuallydo what they, that doesn't
serve, how they want to live,for instance and so we figure

(05:33):
that out throughout the designprocess and sometimes it happens
in the first meeting, sometimesit happens in the fifth one and
it all kind of clicks.
So I tend to prefer to workwith clients who are a bit more
open-ended, have an idea of anaesthetic.
I mean, everyone sees it thatway.
I don't see architecture as anaesthetic exercise.
I think it's more of afunctional one and one where you

(05:57):
can kind of get to know aclient and their needs, but also
how that works within aparticular context and how all
of that kind of fits together.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Cool, and are you mostly working on single family
homes, or what are you?

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Right now I would say we have two single family homes
.
One is a gut rehab, actuallyhere in Lakeview, or a
closed-door gut rehab.
Another one is more of aconsulting thing for a large
house out in the suburbs whereI'm just helping the owner make
some good choices and in limitedfashion they have a phasing
strategy so I'm trying to helpthem with the different kinds of

(06:35):
projects that align there.
I'm helping a brewery at themoment working on their
restaurant space also aconsulting role and then kind of
getting into a larger net zeroworkshop, which is much, totally
different but it's effectivelya warehouse.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
What does a net zero workshop mean?

Speaker 3 (06:58):
So the net zero warehouse is one where the owner
is very interested in a verysustainable approach.
So we're looking at things likerenewable energy, solar,
affordable, takes on the roof,geothermal heating and cooling
and a lot more daylight than youwould expect in a typical
warehouse structure.

(07:18):
So it's good for people whowork there but also cuts down on
electricity and those kinds ofloads so that it becomes a much
more sustainable building type,much more comfortable for people
to operate in.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Is net zero, the term that is used in either
residential or commercialbuilding these days to indicate
that it's a sustainablestructure.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, and there's a lot of different ways of
approaching sustainability ordifferent labels that come with
it.
I mean, embodied carbon issomething that's actually very
important to the industry now aswell, in addition to energy
efficiency and those kinds ofthings, so it's one of many
different fronts on thesustainability side of how to go
about doing it?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
What percentage of the projects that you work on
have that component?
Is it all of them?

Speaker 3 (08:11):
at this point, they all do but to different
capacities, and it's not justwhat the clients bring, but it's
also what we as architects, asagents of the environment, and
what we need to be doing.
So every project is how do wemake this as energy efficient as
possible?
It's not just about, I wouldsay, adding things to buildings,

(08:34):
as it is more about preservingbuildings too.
So we talk a lot about carbonin our profession nowadays, both
operational and, I would say,embodied carbon.
So all the carbon necessary tobuild a building, from the
trucks that need to deliver thematerial to the factory that
needs to make it, how muchcarbon is being created to do

(08:58):
that and stuff.
So along those lines it's howdo we reduce that?
Because that actually has amajor impact in our
environmental footprint, and abig thing is about saving
buildings and not tearing themdown.
It takes time and it takescarbon to tear buildings down
and to remove all of that wasteand then to bring new materials

(09:19):
in just for the sake of it beingnew, and so I prefer personally
and I think there are a lot ofarchitects out there that would
like to save buildings,especially those that have been
built well, and repurpose themfor other current needs, and it
also tends to make cities andbuildings a lot more interesting
.
There's an idiosyncrasy in whatwe would call a patina that you

(09:41):
can work with, that you can'trecreate.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Right, yeah, it's a condo in California that was a
converted factory that made potsand pans.
But I'll tell you that, livingin that, what was a former
concrete building, I couldn'thear anything from my neighbors.
It was the most amazingsoundproofing ever.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
I'm all about that?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool the term
agents of the environment.
It sounds like you consideryourself one.
Is that generally whatarchitects think of themselves?
Or are you sort of a pioneerwith the net zero and low carbon
footprint?

Speaker 3 (10:27):
I don't consider myself a pioneer in anything
really, but I think thatdifferent architects have
different goals or objectives,and so you have lots of
architects who are interested inagency of a community or a city
, what we do and how it affectsthe city.
That's also plays a role.

(10:48):
It's not mutually exclusivefrom the idea of the environment
.
We can do all of the above withthought and care in time, but I
think that there's architectswho are specialized or push
affordable housing and thathelps cities in a different way.
So I think that you see a lotof architects and more of a
trend where architects aresaying what can we do to improve

(11:12):
cities and people's lives,whether it's a family or a
neighborhood or an organizationor a company, with the work that
we do beyond just perhaps anaesthetic response?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
I think, it's interesting and it's a balance
between I'm sure that in olderbuildings you don't have a blank
slate to be able to bring inthe efficient air handlers that
you would in a new structure,and so it's a balance between

(11:48):
providing those elements to theconstruction versus the cost of
tearing down a building andstarting new.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, I mean we did a house in Wicker Park a couple
of years ago where we saved theshell, but everything inside it
was relatively was otherwise newfloor because the, the
structure wasn't, as, say, stoutas it could have been and there
was a bit of a bounce in thefloor and just kind of not what
was the right thing to do and itwas at the end of each lifespan

(12:17):
.
But the exterior walls werestill great, in great condition,
and actually the roof as well.
So there's a there's photos,graphs of it, where all the
floors are gone and we'reputting the full, the new
structure back into, tie it allback together.
Oh wow.
But that house had all new HVACsystems, air conditioning and
the kind of thing and we did it.

(12:38):
We, we made the, the brick, thehouse itself, we insulated it up
and down the house, such that Iremember the owner told me one
day in the first winter he saidI had the radiant running in the
basement and the whole house iswarm.
Oh my gosh.
And so it was just kind of agreat thing.
That's a dream.
It actually worked and it wascomfortable in there.

(12:58):
So you can adapt olderstructures with new systems to
make them even more energyefficient.
So you're saving on theembodied carbon, but also on the
energy as you, as you moveforward.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Let's stick with this .
You know, sort of adaptivereuse theme.
You know there's.
There's this challenge thatwe're all faced with.
You know, in the urbanenvironments of occupancy rates
and in our downtown officebuildings, which may or may not
ever increase again, what wouldyou do if you could wave a magic

(13:33):
wand to sort of rethink thosestructures?
How would that?

Speaker 3 (13:39):
what would that look like?
Yeah, that's a.
That's the million dollar ormulti million dollar question.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
That's why I'm asking you.
Yeah, karen's taking notes.
I talked about her.
Here's my wallet.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
There's nothing in it , though.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, this has been fun.
Thanks for coming.
No, I think that.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
There's a few different wands that you could
wave for that kind of approachor response.
I think that the a lot of thesehigh rise office buildings were
designed under obviously adifferent workplace and office
culture.
A lot of them are actuallybased on law firms, lands and
other organizations or companiesthat would fill the space.
I've worked in a few of thesespeculative high rise buildings

(14:24):
and the challenge with a lot ofthem is that they're very
formulaic and they need to bedesigned such that different
organizations can kind of fillin and give it down to the
furniture systems and ceilingsystems and stuff.
They all kind of work withinthis language of what these tall
buildings create.
So there's a formula for theleast up, for instance, and the

(14:45):
four to four heights.
So it's very much driven bythose numbers.
And then when you realize thatthat formula doesn't maybe work
anymore or because people'sinterest in being in those
buildings are different, thatposes the challenge that we are
starting to seek today.
The other issue is that a lotof these buildings are full
height, all glass curtain wallsand because of energy codes the

(15:08):
glass has to perform to acertain degree, to a certain
level, and so the buildingsstart to look the same.
If you notice a lot of thenewer buildings, all the glass
kind of looks the same Becauseof it has to perform a certain
way, and so the technology iscurrently where it's at, and so
you have this building type thatproliferates where you're just
creating space.
And how do you repurpose that,if need be, to actually

(15:33):
accommodate a new use?
So the solution is a difficultone.
What housing doesn'tnecessarily want a 45 foot lease
depth because you want accessto windows and glass, and so it
makes these buildings very, verydifficult to repurpose in their
respect because it limits whatyou can put in there, and even

(15:54):
law firms, I would say.
In my experience with some ofthese projects, these lease
steps were set because you havethe depth of a typical attorney
office and then a corridor andthen you know assistants or
staff and storage and that sortof thing, but you don't have the
storage and filing needs thatyou used to anymore.
So a lot of that inside spaceis no longer.

(16:16):
It's actually hard to program,but you still need access to
daylight and views for perimeteroffices.
So how do you adapt to that?
So it's going to be a challengeand struggle to repurpose these
.
There's a lot of interest inlooking and housing, how to
bring housing into the loop orcity centers.
It cuts down in commute time.

(16:37):
It actually brings life back tothe streets after hours.
So we'll see.
I think there's a lot ofdevelopers and people trying to
solve this problem.
The Thompson Center is a goodone.
You know where here's abuilding that was underutilized,
under maintained and extremelyenergy inefficient, and you know

(16:59):
how does Google kind of breathenew life into that building and
preserve what it can?

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, that'll be a fun project to watch.
What?
Where is that project?
It's in the loop right by CityHall, and where is it at in
terms of its life cycle?

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Oh, it was built in the 80s, designed by Helmut Jan.
It's the big UFO building withthe, with the round atrium that
cuts through it, and it wasowned by the state of Illinois.
It was built by the state ofIllinois, oh did you really, oh?

Speaker 2 (17:37):
on the 14th floor.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
No, it's a spectacular space.
It has its quirks and is agreat example of postmodern
architecture.
And you start to see thingswhere you know a lot of systems
in the building have kind ofreached the end of its life
cycle, so it was time torenovate or revamp I have to
rehabilitate the building, Iwould say, and it was always

(18:01):
known to not be energy efficientbecause of the curtain, wall
system and the like, but it wasprogress and it was.
It's a spectacular urban andcivic space and gesture to the
city that you just don't see andthe likes of which are probably
not going to get built again orreplicated.
So saving that and trying tofind a new purpose for it is a

(18:23):
very noble task.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
And what is Google's plans?
How are they going to save itbut also adapt it for their
usage?

Speaker 3 (18:30):
Hard to say.
They've been pretty quiet aboutwhat the development will be,
and any renderings that havekind of covered have been more
conceptual in nature.
So it remains to be seen.
Gotcha, gotcha Well we'll findout.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
We'll find out soon enough.
Yeah, what got you intoarchitecture initially?

Speaker 3 (18:49):
I wasn't good at anything else.
That can't be true.
You laughed, but it was reallyjust the last thing that was
left on the list, I think, umdon't.
Wait a second, wait a second.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
That's not true, because you're not a real tour.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
No, I mean, I wanted to be back in junior high.
My uh, my uncle, passed away atvery young ages.
There were 45 and 29.
There were siblings and theypassed away weeks apart for
different reasons, and so Ispent a lot of time in ICU.
So I would get picked up fromschool, take to the hospital and
do my homework there, and sonaturally I wanted to be a

(19:29):
doctor.
This was, I don't know, sixthgrade, seventh grade, and so I
wanted to.
I was on that track for a whileand my parents were thrilled.
Um, and I think I realized, likefreshman year in high school, I
came home one day and Iremember distinctly my my mom
was washing dishes and a pot andher back was to me.
And I came home and I said Idon't think I want to be a

(19:50):
doctor anymore and she droppedthe pot, like why not?
And I'm just like, well, Ithink I'd be a better at being
an architect and I'm just notvery good at like science and
this doesn't come naturally tome.
And my mom's response was it'sokay, you don't have to be a

(20:11):
good doctor, you just have to bea doctor.
Oh my God.
But she supported my dreamanyway, and so I kind of kicked
things around and I rememberdriving into the city and my
parents would take me toChinatown on weekends and there
was a building now known as 500West Madison it's also Helmion

(20:34):
building, by chance.
That was under construction andso every week I could monitor
construction progress and steeland everything.
And then the reflective curtainwall went up and it just
transformed the building and Ithought it was the coolest thing
ever, nice, and it was also atthe same time as the new Komiski
Park or the current guaranteedrate field.

(20:55):
And I can't say I'm a huge fanof the design, but the process
of which it was built, theanticipation and opening day, it
was more about how it broughtthe city together for that
moment in time and howarchitecture or something had
that kind of power to do that.
And so for me I was kind ofhooked and I think it was a trip

(21:17):
to Chinatown where we went tosome rest or some convenience
store and there was a book onarchitecture on a shelf and it
was just strange, didn't belongthere and it was actually in
pretty rough shape, but I beggedmy parents to buy it for me and
my mom was like no, I mean, westill wanted you to be a doctor.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
A bad doctor, Right right.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
But they bought it for me and it was really just a
marketing book of architects,corporate firms, and Helmut Jan
was in one of them and it justhad.
This is a book likepre-internet, so you couldn't
just look up firms and so itlisted the people addresses.
So I would do drawings and makemodels and take photos and send

(22:02):
them, send letters toarchitects.
In the book oh wow, chinatown,I think all but one wrote back,
which was amazing to me.
That's great, and Helm Eon wasone of them.
By a totally strange chance, hesent me a couple of books of his
work and I remember flippingthrough them and seeing drawings

(22:22):
of 500 West Madison and theThompson Center and among other
buildings and I realized therewas an iterative process to the
design and it was messy and itwas sketches and models and
presentation drawings and therewas a story behind it in a
reason.
So I was hooked and, long storyshort, I actually ended up

(22:45):
having an internship with HelmEon's office for most summers
from my junior year of highschool through grad school and I
just loved being in the officeand learning from people and
making buildings, and was hestill around and active?

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
Absolutely.
I had to work with him directlyon a number of assignments and
he was always very kind, verydemanding, but very kind to me.
That's amazing.
Yeah, it was great to justrealize that here's this world
famous architect who is alsojust a person.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, you know what a cool experience.
And good for you for just doingthe things you love to do and
then sending it out to the worldand trying to make those
connections.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Yeah, I know I appreciate it.
It was a lot of fun and I amvery grateful to all of those
who took the time to write backwhen they probably had many
better things to do.
I always try to respond tothose kinds of inquiries, when
people reach out and asking foradvice or that sort of thing, as
a way to give back.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Have you had the opportunity to pay that forward
at all to?

Speaker 3 (23:53):
any young aspiring architects?
Yeah, at any number of times,at any point in time.
I usually have a couple ofpeople calling me on a regular
basis asking for advice orconnections, and I mean, just
like anybody, would you just tryto make the right, try to help
them out and encourage them?
And the profession is verydifferent today than it was way

(24:15):
back when.
So there's a lot more tonavigate.
It's going to be a great way.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
How do you keep up with the new trends of carbon
and solar and all those things?

Speaker 3 (24:28):
It is very challenging just because there's
so much information and dataout there now and I've come from
larger practices where therewas resources and people who
were experts at any number ofthe fields, so there's always
something you could call.
My projects right now are of ascale where it's a little easier
to work with differentconsultants and teams.

(24:50):
So you work with a greatmechanical engineer and
structural engineer andcontractor and you put the right
team together and you can makea lot of progress.
But there is way moreinformation and opportunities to
explore, which makes theprofession great Because you can
get into the profession andfind different interests and
niches along those lines.

(25:12):
But it's hard to keep up withhow exponentially the complex
the profession or buildingscience gets, as we know more.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, and I would assume, just when you finish a
project that's probably takenyears to accomplish, then some
new technology comes out andbetter windows or better heating
systems or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so youhave to really just keep moving
forward, I would think.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
Right, and the nature of our work too is that I've
been introduced to new productsand in many cases I've been able
to use them.
But you never want to be theguinea pig.
No client wants like oh well,this is a new window that's
never been installed anywhereand it's trying to get a client
to understand that.
Ok, I'll give it a shot.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Right yeah, how do those companies start to get
their footballed?

Speaker 3 (26:02):
No, it takes time and trust.
But yeah, we tried new productsand buildings before and it's
worked out just fine, so good.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Right, One of the things I love about real estate
is being able to work withclients and sort of
understanding and discussingwith them what their goals and
aspirations are and then try tofind a home that sort of fits
their needs and help them figureout how they're going to relate
to that structure.

(26:31):
Sure, you feel in sort of someof our back and forth.
It seems like you feelsimilarly about architecture.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yes, it's like my favorite part is to get to know
the client, get to know how theylive, how they communicate, how
they currently live and howthey want to live, and working
with a budget and a context andtrying to put all the pieces
together.
So that's why I see the designprocess as a bit of a journey,

(27:00):
because you're trying tounderstand all of these
different things and the nuancesthere.
To come up with a narrative or astory not unlike a songwriter
might that helps tie it alltogether in a way that's
meaningful to them is ideally onbudget, but it's also trying to
see the potential that if, moretimes than I, work with a

(27:23):
homeowner that has an existingstructure and whether we got it
or do something else to it, wealways want to try to save as
much as we can.
But the structure has a voicein the design process too what
it can do.
It affects the budget and itmight inform how you live in a
given space and so how to adaptall of those pieces, because

(27:44):
usually if you can do it rightand put them all together and
understand all of the differentnuances, you can end up with a
result that's actually better,or the it becomes greater than
the sum of its parts, and that'swhen it kind of becomes a very
special or meaningful space.
You can feel the differencebetween a great piece of
architecture and maybe onethat's just OK.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
When you drive around the city and you see the
projects that you've worked on,do you feel sense of pride?

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yeah, no it's.
I've been lucky that we've hadreally great clients and great
contractors and great partnersand they've been along for the
ride and the projects areholding up well.
The buildings are stillstanding and the communities for
where they are have acceptedthem, whether it's a house in
the homeowner Texas means, aspeople came by for Halloween and

(28:39):
they love it and they want tosee it inside and they were
thankful that you saved thefacade.
And two years ago I led thedesign for the Outpatient Center
for Advocate on Lakeview atClark and Berry.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Really.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
And that used to be the old sports authority While
it was with another firm.
But to kind of transform whatwas an empty big box store into
a sort of health care center forthe neighborhood that I drive
by that almost every day, justday to day living in the

(29:15):
neighborhood.
So it's great to see how it'sbeen accepted into the community
and the community reviewprocess actually was quite
enriching and fun.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Really, oh, I would think that you would be as an
architect and be like oh no, wegot to put it out there in the
public.
No, I mean, I think there, youenjoyed that part.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, it was.
It's always great to hearfeedback and to know that people
care.
So you have those who have avery strong opinion about what
should be there, and I alwayssee that as at least they care
enough about the neighborhood tohave come out voiced their
opinion, and it takes courage tospeak up like that.
We might not agree or the goals.

(29:55):
What we're trying to do willachieve their goals perhaps in a
slightly different way, but wealways have to listen as
architects and stewards of thephysical city that we live in.
So, yeah, there's definitelypride in that you can take what
was otherwise a vacant propertyand turn it into something that
is helpful to the community.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, that's really nice to know that there's.
I just assumed that there wasway more ego involved in
architecture of I want to designa cool building and it's going
to go here and a neighborhood bedamned or whatever.
I don't know why I think that,but that's.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
I mean, I'm sure that happens yeah maybe it happens,
I think.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
I do think that it's great to have people who have a
vision and are willing to pushit through, as long as that
vision is rooted in trying tohelp the city or do something
more than just make money for adeveloper or whatever what have
you?
And it's hard, but I think itcan be done.
And the great thing about thearchitecture community today is

(31:01):
that there's so many architectsout there who understand this
need to improve the city andgive back through our work.
So it becomes more about whatdoes the community need or what
could help the neighborhoodversus.
This is my vision for an eggshaped house Right.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's a great idea.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Is that the next big thing?
No, in our sort of back andforth.
In the email you drew anamazing comparison between
architecture and music, both asa vehicle for memory.
Could you expound on that alittle bit Sure?

Speaker 3 (31:49):
So I had.
I mean, I questioned mypresence at this podcast
multiple times.
I wonder who canceled before meand I was available today.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, you're doing great, helmet Jan.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
He couldn't be here yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
No, my, in many respects I see architecture as
kind of a privilege to be doingwhat we're doing, because we can
help bring people together withour work.
But our work tends to outlastus even beyond our years, and it
can, I think, when you thinkback to your life, or at least
to my life and differentmemories I've had.
The architecture has a kind ofquiet presence in the background

(32:38):
and I hope that the work that Ido does the same, that it helps
to bring people together indifferent ways and that it's
quietly there as people creatememories on their own and that
it can tell stories and thatsort of thing.
And I think music works in avery similar way.
So I questioned my presencebecause I could not name my

(32:58):
favorite band or artist and Idon't have a vinyl collection,
but perhaps I will get themstarted.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
This might inspire you to do so.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
No, absolutely For the Gateway podcast.
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
But I think my relationship to music is very
similar to mine witharchitecture, in that it's music
to me is about memories.
So I don't seek out aparticular song or artist.
I am kind of a it drives mywife nuts but I'm definitely a

(33:33):
channel surfer.
Spotify has been like abeautiful, amazing thing.
Where the songs are I listen to.
I look for songs that remind meof something, bringing me back
to a certain time, and those arethe songs I gravitate to.
So it's just a long, a widespectrum of music types.

(33:54):
So I think I was telling you theSting's Field of Gold was
playing in the background when Iwas visiting South Africa as
kind of an exchange student andit was our last day at a school
with my host and all of ustogether.
It was raining but the sun wasout and it was moist but I could

(34:17):
smell the air and it was justplaying in the background for no
apparent reason.
But every time I hear that songI can smell the air in that
space and the people who werewith me in the school.
It was kind of a courtyardspace.
So music tends to remind me ofthese different I think I
mentioned.
Like Technotronic Reminds me ofChinatown in the 90s and

(34:41):
visiting family or friends outthere, because it would always
be playing in the background aswe were hanging out, and so it
just transports me to thesedifferent kind of places.
But I appreciate music becauseit has so many different
interpretations, like thearchitecture can.
I think some of the best songssort of do that, and people can

(35:05):
relate to different songs indifferent ways, as they do the
same with architecture.
So it's more my interest inmusic or my relationship to it
is more like a catalog ofmemories, as maybe buildings can
, for people too.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Are you continuing that?
I mean, are you able to formnew memories surrounding music?
I mean, maybe it's like a songthat your kids love, or
something like that.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, so it's interesting.
My son has very strange hereclectic taste in music because
they try to make sure he justgets all of it and he can kind
of pick and choose.
But all of the songs that helikes relate to a sadly YouTube
video or something.
So he refers to the BackstreetBoys as the police song because

(35:55):
there was some police departmentthat did some lip sync or
whatever to a Backstreet Boyssong.
So he just loves it Police song.
And he loves Whitney Houston,you know, and Lizzo, with swears
and all.
So he learned how to swearthrough music.
Of course, it's a story foranother day, but yeah, so it's
great to see him starting toexplore or be attracted to

(36:19):
genres and like being musicallyhandicapped, if you would call
it myself, like how to exposehim to as many different genres
so that he can.
I think that he quite lovesmusic.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
So he explores that In your list of the songs that
hold memories.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
It was a very sort of eclectic list of genres and
Linda Ronstadt, you mentionedDave Matthews, and then I love
the Home Alone theme song.
And now you can listen toChristmas music all year round.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, so I think you both know that my wife grew up
in the Home Alone house, and soshe walked down the aisle at our
wedding to the Home Alone themesong.
So good.
Because I remember telling herI'm like you're the only person
in the world where this kind ofmakes sense, and she's just like
all right.
Yeah, and we got married rightaround the holidays, yeah, and

(37:12):
so the holidays have a differentkind of meaning for me between
our wedding and our love of HomeAlone.
And so we can listen to.
We don't listen to it all day,every day, year round, but it's
nine thousand for us to maybeplay it in June.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Right, it's part of the playlist, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Was she there?
Was she living there during thefilming, or how did that come
about?
Any good stories around that.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
There are a lot of good stories there.
I mean long story short they.
You could have her for adifferent podcast.
But I think the producers forJohn Hughes were looking for a
house and they actuallyapproached their house when they
were living in Evanston at thetime and I think that the house

(37:58):
was either being sold or theysaid you know, we actually
bought a house in Winnecke thatlooked similar but you might be
interested and it wasn't rightfor that particular film.
But they came back andeventually said how about this?
And here's the script and it'sfor Home Alone.
They said, great, let's do it.
Wow, and so she was, I think inkindergarten at the time when
they really did the filmingthere.

(38:19):
It has stories of I think herclass went there on a field trip
.
You know she would swipe M&Msand candy from the food service
tent and like.
So she tells a much betterstory about all of this, but
it's yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
What a trip.
And she reveres it right.
It's not looked upon with anyamount of scorn just because
it's it's you know.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
I mean, I'm sure she talks about it a lot, so I
probably talk about it more thanshe does, because for her we
have the Lego set, the HomeAlone Lego set, and for like me,
what a dream come true to haveLego built like.
Have a set for your childhoodhome right, that's the coolest
fucking thing ever.

(39:07):
And I remember asking her oneday when we had it, and I'm like
we were building it and I'mlike is this not the coolest
thing to you?
She goes no, I don't reallycare.
And I'm like what do you mean?
And she would say it in so manywords.
But I'm like why?
And she goes I mean you grow upin the house.
All of this becomes kind ofpart of it.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
So it's not like.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
I'm like well, I think this is the coolest
fucking thing ever.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
So don't take it from me.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah, so I think she looks back on it with great
fondness, yeah, and does plentyof interviews herself really
around the world.
It's crazy.
So around the holidays sheusually gets an invite to do
some interview with like thisyear was like a French
television show.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
She's in.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Australia and.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Poland, and it's crazy how it turned out.
But there's fodder for you know, yeah, a whole episode yeah all
right future guest.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like a squazer in between
Speaking of memory is anarchitecture.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
You also mentioned that you kind of look at
architects and musicians andsort of the entrepreneurial
aspect of creative endeavors ina similar way.
I mean people build a businessaround their creative ideas.

(40:33):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (40:34):
right.
No, I think that it's some ofthe best musicians and the best
architects, I think areextremely gifted and talented at
their particular art form and Iadmire them for chasing the
purity of the work that they'redoing and it's, I think, in both
music and architecture.
It's very easy to be influencedby outside forces, whether it's

(40:59):
a producer or a budget or anaudience or a city or a
community.
Sometimes it's hard to putyourself out there as an artist
and say this is intuitive andwhat you believe in and are
passionate about.
And so I admire those artists,whether architects or musicians,
who have kind of hit that levelof their careers where they're

(41:21):
doing what is very meaningfuland intuitive to them and it's
just who they are and putting itout there and then being able
to have the savvy to make abusiness out of it.
I mean, it's hard to ignoreTaylor Swift today.
I can't believe we're talkingabout Taylor Swift, but that's
what I was going to bring up.
But you see the she's writingsongs and she's gifted in that

(41:46):
and she's telling stories andit's all very personal and I
admire that style of song.
You can take it or leave it.
I don't hate her song, it'stotally fine.
I've been to a concert or twoof hers because my wife wanted
to go but it was fun to be thereand I'll readily admit that was
there.
But I greatly admire herability to put, tell these

(42:08):
stories, put the music togetherand then support.
I remember hearing someinterview article where she goes
if hundreds of people tosupport their livelihoods depend
on what we're doing as an artform, and how do you balance
what the general public wants tohear, who you are as a person,

(42:30):
and all of the people that needyou to try to live?
in and to grow with you.
So I admire how complex all ofthese things are.
From a lot of the musicians wehear on the radio and stuff have
kind of hit it at some point.
So the art form has been great,and there's so many

(42:52):
similarities between music andarchitecture that there's only
so many materials we have accessto.
Most architects don't inventmaterials.
We are just putting differentmaterials together in different
ways, and what makes onearchitect better than the other,
it's the quality of thematerial and how they put them
together, and I think the samewith musicians.

(43:13):
It's the same set of musicalinstruments, it's the same notes
, it's a rhythm, it's astructure to a song, but it's
how you put all those piecestogether that create something
that is a bit more memorable orsomething that is a work of art,
and so there's always all theseoverlaps and parallels between

(43:35):
the two that I find fascinating.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, things that I would never have put together.
I also think of Taco Bell'smenu, because it's just a
limited amount of ingredientsand every year they gotta come
up with a chalupa, something, apiece of art.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
The Mexican pizza was like the.
Oh, I remember the.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Mexican pizza do they still have those?

Speaker 1 (43:58):
I have no idea.
There's always campaigns tobring it back actually.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Is it?
It's like the McRib.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, that's right, Taco Bell yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Architecture music and Taco Bell.
Taylor Swift and Taco Bell.
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Do you listen to music in the background while
you're working?
Does it help organize your mindI mean for me, when a very sort
of mathematically driven bandis on, for example fish jamming,
my mind gets way more organized.

(44:33):
Or does it detract from yourability to create?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
something it usually keeps me up at night.
It keeps me awake because mywaking hours are usually
beatings and different things.
So the creative side ofarchitecture tends to happen
after hours.
But yeah, music with a beat oranything, it's usually stuff
that I don't want to hear forthe first time, stuff that I've

(45:00):
heard for the 100th time or1000th time?
But yeah, that definitely has aninfluence in trying to get
things moving.
But sometimes it's also justeither listening to a podcast or
a lecture.
I tend to watch lecturessometimes when I work.
But yeah, the music can be adefinite influence, especially

(45:21):
on the kind of project.
If it's a small residentialproject, it tends to be a little
quieter.
But when it's something larger,really when we're in a tight
deadline and we have to move it,along that definitely helps.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
That's when you put your death metal on and just get
down to it.
Well, why don't we take a quickbreak and we'll come back and
talk a little bit about Chicago?

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Sounds great.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Great Karen, andrew.
Is it time for our record?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
of the week.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Record of the week.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Record of the week.
What do you got?

Speaker 1 (46:00):
I have a record that I don't really have much
information on, but I'm going totalk about it anyways.
It's a band called Malenas howdo you spell it?
M-e-l-e-n-a-s.
They're a Spanish quartet.
They're actually on a locallabel called Trouble in Mind.
Hope to have the proprietor,trouble in Mind, on as a guest.

(46:24):
He also works with our friendTony at ToneDeaf, and so that's
where I got the recommendationfrom.
It's their latest album, calledAhora.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Ahora like A-H-O-R-A.
Spanish for now.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's correct.
It is a lovely listen.
I definitely don't want to callit background music, that seems
to be doing a disservice, butit's something that you could
put on while you're doing otherthings and just kind of bop your
head while you're surfingthrough the kitchen cleaning up.

(47:00):
It's also something that youcould sit down and listen to
with a friend.
It's kind of bright and upbeat,but with some intrigue.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Lyrics Is it instrumental?
What?

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Mostly instrumental.
Some lyrics they're in Spanish.
Our friend Eric Carlson cameover the other day and he knew
of them, but he speaks Spanishand seeks out Spanish language
music.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Do you speak Spanish?

Speaker 1 (47:33):
No.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Which is Spanish, for no, it's funny enough.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
I was like maybe you could translate some of these
lyrics for me.
They have one song called Bang.
He's like this is Spanish forbang.
I'm like oh, I can follow alongthat one.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Pretty close Okay.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
But yeah, I would check them out.
Great, all right, we're backwith Tom Lee.
Hi Hi, how's everyone doing?
Great, where's the nearest TacoBell.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
It's actually pretty close.
It's not in the Bell Mots.
There's one on the bell.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I think you're pretty much equidistant.
There's one on the bell mots.
Maybe it's gone.
No, it's not there anymore.
Yeah, one on the bell mots.
Yeah, you'll stop by on the wayto your next appointment,
absolutely so.
You know, chicago is oftenrenowned as an architecturally
significant city, I meanworld-renowned.

(48:34):
Is that true in your estimation?
Yeah, totally fair.
And what about it do you thinkcreates that?

Speaker 3 (48:44):
reputation.
Well, there's a lot.
I think part of it is thediversity of work, and not only
from different architects butalso different times.
So I mean, architecture wasreally the birthplace of the
skyscraper or the technology forit.
So you can see that proliferatein the city and how that people

(49:10):
and architects in the city weretrying to understand how to
build tall and what that meantand how.
This is just a totallydifferent capability and
technology that was developing.
So I think you see a lot ofgreat examples of those here in
the city.
They're not necessarily thetallest buildings, obviously the
Sears Tower or Willis, whateverthe fuck you wanna call it.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Sears Tower.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
You know it was one of them.
But when you look at Chicago,to me there's you look at the
Sears Tower and the HancockTower and a lot of these
buildings they are, they're notjust an aesthetic exercise, they
are a structural orperformative one.
So in those, those are aboutstructure and efficiency.
The bundled tubes that make upthis Sears Tower and the trusses

(49:56):
or the bracing on the HancockTower and its tapered shape is
derived from a structural needand it is expressed as such.
It's not.
The aesthetic is a result ofthat, and I think that's really
what Chicago is about and thatyou know.
You look at the city and there'sthose are just office buildings

(50:17):
.
You know they're not museums,they're just ordinary buildings.
And so we have applied inChicago we have a history of
applying great design to veryordinary building types, you
know, unlike some other citiesnot right or wrong or otherwise,
but other cities that focus ontheir cultural institutions, for
instance.
So anything is an opportunityin Chicago to design, and some

(50:40):
of the greatest buildings in theloop and in the city are just
office buildings, but adapted orgreat examples of particular
technology.
You know, and we have some ofthe greatest examples of
buildings from different eras.
You know, and we talked aboutHelmhians, postmodern Thompson
Center.
Also think about the InlandSteel Building Mies van der Roos

(51:03):
, 86880 Lakeshore Drive, 99910,next door, and you know that
86880 is.
It's hard to if you're familiarwith it.
It's up in Streeterville,they're black and white.
You know twin towers, if youcall it that, and residential
towers and you will seearchitecture buffs come and take

(51:27):
photos and visit from aroundthe world because those are the
first of its kind and it's hard,you can take it for granted
because it's proliferatedeverywhere around the world and
copied, but those are the firstand when you think about when
they were built and the contextand how different it was, that's
what Chicago was about.
It's sort of a place whereinnovation occurred and some of

(51:49):
the greatest examples ofinnovation.
So just take a walk through theloop and we are very lucky to
be able to walk by the Rookeryor the Auditorium Theater and
the Inland Steel Building.
All in one, you know littlewalking tour.
So I think that you start to seethe history of architecture
here and the diversity.
All these buildings are verydifferent from each other and I

(52:11):
think that's what makes it sucha great collection.
But I think the future is alsoone to be very excited about.
You know, there are a lot ofarchitects now focused on
communities that have had a lotof disinvestment and trying to
help give back to communitiesand create design for those who

(52:34):
might not otherwise have accessto it, and working with
visionary clients who want to dothe same.
So it's definitely the landscapeis starting to shift in the
city.
It's one of the few majorcities where unlike New York,
perhaps, or LA in a differentway, but you know, it's a city
that is affordable, relativelyaffordable in some other

(52:54):
respects.
They're still laying to buildon, so you can still do new
construction, but there's alsoexisting stock, that there's a
lot of adaptive use and you'realso seeing a lot of great young
firms come to Chicago, which Ithink is, at least in my
experience, more recent than youknow.
You have people coming from thedifferent coasts to the city
because they think it's a greatplace to practice, because of

(53:17):
the history and what's next?
What's the next chapter for thecity?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
so Do you have favorite buildings in Chicago?

Speaker 3 (53:26):
I would say the ones that I just listed, just because
they were the first, or there'sa purity.
I mean the Hancock Tower.
I used to live right there, soit's just a privilege to be able
to walk by and it's such asimple idea.
But I see, that building, if Ican geek out a little is one of
the few buildings where thearchitect and engineer kind of

(53:48):
get equal credit to Bruce Grahamand PalsorCon because they work
so closely together in order tocreate that piece of
architecture and I think thatrepresents a collaboration that
made it better than, as we weretalking about earlier, somebody
with an ego saying I want tojust make a shape.
There's actually a meaningfulresponse both to the program.

(54:10):
So it tapers, not only forstructural purposes but because
the program on the upper floorsare residential, it doesn't need
the deep floor plate that wewere talking about before.
So it naturally works with theprogram too, and that's what I
love about Chicago is you haveso many buildings that are
designed with that sense ofrigor, where there's not a

(54:32):
one-liner.
There's a lot of reasons we dodifferent things.
That's not just an aestheticexercise here.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Do you think the layperson would be able to I
mean, all of these buildings, ora lot of these buildings that
you're talking about aresignificant to, they're
well-known outside of peoplethat are in Chicago because they
can see them from afar.
They can see the skyline.
Do you think there are ways toappreciate architecture from the

(55:05):
street?

Speaker 3 (55:06):
level.
Yeah, I mean when you.
So perhaps I've been talkingabout buildings as objects in
the city, but when you reallythink of cities you think of the
streets.
You know, my memory of New Yorkor LA or Chicago is the street
wall that different buildingscreate.

(55:27):
And so how buildings meet theground, how they sort of
communicate their use and howyou interact with them, I think
is critical and I think a lot ofpeople.
They only experience the firstfew floors of a building For
sure, and so the high-riseportion of it is kind of out of
your peripheral vision.
So what can you do to bringthat activity down to the ground

(55:48):
and express it and engage thestreet?
You know, is an important thingthat I say any good architect
should do in any great building,should participate in, and
there isn't a formula for it,but I think it should just be
considered intentional in theirrespect.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, one of the reasons I bring that up is
because, for example, here inLakeview, over the course of the
last Now ten, maybe twentyyears, you know Lakeview was a
community.
On the side streets there was alot of two unit, three unit,
four unit buildings.
So you had that density and youhad more people living in the

(56:33):
community that were supportingthe businesses.
You, you know, have had a lotof Investments into Lakeview,
people wanting to live herebecause of schools or whatever,
and so you've had a lot of thosebuildings be Downzoned into
single-family homes.
So you've lost some of thatdensity.
So where do you bring that back?

(56:53):
Well, you bring it back to themajor arteries and you take some
of these you know lots, thesetwo unit, three unit, three
story buildings and you combinelots and you build bigger
buildings and you know, I thinkthat's important for the
vibrancy of the community.
I mean you you bring more peoplein to serve the businesses, you

(57:17):
know, instead of you knowhaving those two to three unit
buildings that would probablyserve the younger community, you
have single family, you know,you have, you have, you have
home, you have families livingthere now, and so most of those
families have the opportunity todrive to their favorite stores
so they're not just like locallyshopping.
But in doing so, some of theopponents of building these

(57:43):
mid-rises with density is thatyou lose those sort of character
you know, mom-and-pop shops.
You lose the sort of characterof the brownstone after
brownstone or brownstone.
And I mean so I guess you kindof just answer that, but you
know how do you Bring thedensity in and still maintain

(58:08):
the character of of theneighborhood, or do you just
like sort of go with it andcreate a new character?
You know?

Speaker 3 (58:15):
down the road.
Yeah, I mean, I think thatthat's.
I agree that there are.
There are certain street Ithink it's important to
understand, like why do certainstreets feel better than others
and More times than not?
It's diversity in scale andit's something you can relate to
as a human.
It's hard to walk right upagainst a tall building.
You know that you have no senseof what the upper floors are

(58:41):
and it's necessary for progressand in a city to increase
density and to grow.
But how do you do that in a waythat can be meaningful?
And I think the challenge yousee a lot with new development
and it's with all the respectedfolks.
But the profession andarchitecture has kind of shifted
a bit to where, when you'reseeing these brownstones,
they're all built up at certaintime and you talk about the

(59:05):
quality or the craft of it.
It's a lot of them are brick, alot of them are buildings that
would be very expensive toreplicate today, just because of
technology and skills and stuff.
The, the mason's that wereprolific then they don't really
do that kind of work as much now.
It's a lot more profitable forthem to do just straight up a
large building and quantity, soyou're losing some of the craft

(59:28):
and what makes, of what makesarchitecture really beautiful,
and you're replacing it withproducts and systems that are
predetermined and tested.
They are tested so that thethere's less liability and it
meets all the differentrequirements than what you could
have done back then.
And they become kind offormulaic because you go to the

(59:50):
same set of materials that areeconomical in or of a particular
type.
So in so many respects it's thesame set of materials used over
and over again.
You see a lot of utility brick.
Why?
Because it's economical.
You know it's economicalbecause it's larger, it's you
know it takes less labor andthat sort of thing.

(01:00:10):
But it lacks a character or any, I would say, value, like it
doesn't have a texture oranything.
It's, it's just kind of aplaceholder and or a More
economical version of a you knowwhat could have been more
elegantly proportioned brick orthat sort of thing.
So all of those mad, althoughthings matter.

(01:00:34):
So how do you start to putthings together so that you can
create and maintain the the kindof depth and integrity in the
work?
And it's hard with Some ofthese buildings where it's just
what's the fastest, cheapestthing I can do that has the
least liability.
So you end up the same three orfour materials used over and
over again.
You also start to see way backwhen these brownstones were of

(01:00:57):
their time.
This is, this is what we'rebuilding today.
This is what's popular, andyou're seeing so many new
buildings try to replicate adifferent Era, but they're doing
so in a much cheaper waybecause they can't replicate the
same detail or craft or quality.
So it just all kind of looksthe same and it's hard, you know

(01:01:18):
, and there's picking the sametwo or three different color
bricks and and there you have itright, but how do you, how do
you change that, or what wouldyou in a perfect world want to
see?
I think that there's.
You know, if there are ways,you can find Ways to help break
that formula.
So I worked with a developer alittle while ago and they had

(01:01:41):
asked me an interesting questionover lunch.
You know we're working withthem for the first time.
Look, how do you, how do youpick materials?
And I was like, well, there's alot of different ways to go
about it.
For me, it's what is thequality, because that's what
matters to me if we want to talkabout sustainability what it's
gonna last the longest and agemost gracefully over time.

(01:02:03):
Those brownstones look verysimilar today as they did when
they were built.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Where some of the newer buildings and some of
these other finishes start tofade over time a lot faster than
they used to and I think thatthat hurts the, the community
and the environment many numberof ways.
But for instance, we had kindof a set budget from the very
traditional approach from adeveloper.
We have a contractor to set abudget and said you have this
percentage of this kind ofmaterial and and this amount of

(01:02:29):
glass and kind of work withinthat parameter to stay in budget
and the problem was it was themost, it was the cheapest
quality of an expensive materialthat they had set forth for the
majority of the building and itjust wasn't gonna last long and
so we actually moved.
I pushed him to Suggested andthey agreed to actually go to

(01:02:52):
the highest quality metal panel.
It's just a corrugated metalpanel but it's of a decent
quality.
That just takes more time tobuild and to make but it has a
really beautiful texture as thelight hits it and has a lot more
depth and shadow and thedevelopers totally on board and
also saved money.
But it was the highest quality.

(01:03:13):
With version of that materialwhich was still at a lower price
point then the sort ofimitation Called it, which was
trying to look like a differentmaterial.
It was trying to look likestone.
So I'd rather just work withthe integrity of a material, do
it well and it's gonna look goodfor years to come, and then
you've made a Contribution tothe neighborhood into that city.

(01:03:34):
That's not in Chicago that willgive back over time and in age,
gracefully, because it's of ahigher quality and because we
save money there.
We actually went to I was alittle surprised by this but the
we went to a much more premiumor expensive brick at the base
of the building.
So to your point About meetingthe street, we actually put a

(01:03:58):
really high quality brick at thebase where people experience
more.
And now all of a sudden youkind of enriched the, the
neighborhood in the street, bygiving back because you saved
money elsewhere.
And the great thing is it's avisionary client who wasn't just
trying to pocket that money.
They were saying how do we,what else can we do with it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
I thought was my next question of you.
Know Our developers?
In my mind and I don't knownothing about it would be just,
you know, build as fast andcheap as you can and get out,
sell the property.
It's no longer your dearproblem if things fade and then
do go on to the next project.
But it sounds like there aredevelopers out there who are
have the like-mindedness of youknow the architects you're

(01:04:38):
talking about, like yourself,yeah who want to enhance.
They want to be part of thecommunity solution.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
There are some really greatdevelopers.
Is there are really greatdoctors and there are maybe some
not so great doctors or justokay, doctors, yeah, and
developers to.
Yeah, and part of it too islike you, just as an architect,
you're trying to help educatewhere you can.
I mean, a lot of developers arequite sophisticated, so you not
educating them anything, you'rejust I'm trying to work with

(01:05:06):
you, know what they have infront of you, and there are I've
worked with developers areactually quite visionary too and
they are trying to do the rightthing for a community and are
trusting the architect to helpkind of find that voice.
So I don't think all developersshould get a bad rap for that.
Yeah but it's also as architectswe have to speak their language
.
You know, and almost anybuilding type, you have to Be

(01:05:30):
mindful of the value in thereturn, whether it's a house you
know we have.
I've got clients who want tocreate a very bespoke house.
I'm like how long you gonnalive there, right, and they're
like 10 years.
I'm like, okay, we're gonnasell that.
Yeah and are you wealthy enoughthat you don't care, or they
always care, but I'm also.
It's also the rightEnvironmental approach to not

(01:05:51):
create something that nobodyelse can use and we'll have to
start over.
So how to create that kind ofvalue and be real about budgets
and what people can afford andwhat's the best you can do with
With what you have at hand?

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Yeah, very cool.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Well, Tom, I think that's all the Questions we have
and great time we have fortoday, but thank you so much for
being here.
Thanks for having me.
This is one conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yeah, very interesting, you did a great job
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
filling in for helmet , yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
Yeah that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Good job.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Okay, andrew, so I have a derivative of a lie
question.
Okay tell me what is importantto you about Memories.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Well, memories have a very added significance in my
life now.
Then they used to one becauseI'm Post-menopausal and can't
remember stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
I Did not ask you those these.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
But also, more poignantly, my, my mom has
dementia, so we've been goingthrough that, for, you know,
many years now.
So it so memories.
To me, growing up Like dementiawas always the saddest of all
diseases, because you know atthe end of your life what do you
have left.

(01:07:19):
Maybe you can't walk, well,well, maybe you know whatever.
There's a lot of things thatyou lose, but you always have
your memories you know but whathappens if you don't like.
It made me reevaluate what beinga human being is.
If you you may not have thoseor you may lose them, you know,
and so it became something whereit's more about our collective

(01:07:43):
memory.
Mm-hmm that, if you know so, mymom can't remember anything,
but I remember her.
I remember her as a young, youknow, as a young mom or whatever
.
I have all sorts of attachmentsto, to her life, that, even
though she doesn't have thoseanymore, and so it's not just up

(01:08:04):
to the person and especiallyand for me, when I don't
remember things, I have friendswho do remember them.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
So, for instance, like you know, my bandmate Mark
in California, mark Manning, heremembers every detail of every
show that we've ever played andhe regales these amazing stories
that half the time I'm likereally that happened.
But sometimes I've heard him amillion times and I'm like, oh
right, yeah, he brings me backthere.
It's sort of like when you knowTom today our interview, he was

(01:08:34):
talking about how music bringsthose memories just right back.
So I think that's my new kindof Thinking about about what
memory is and even if I'm losingmine or my mom has lost hers,
other people have them for me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
That's great.
They still exist.
You just source.
It's more of a communal.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yeah, and I think over time, like you know, we're
all Dust in the wind.
Yeah, you know, eventually evenMozart is gonna be forgotten,
probably right, but, and maybethat's okay, maybe it just.
You know, like I don't knowanything about my
great-great-grandparents, right,they were dead and gone before
I was born, right, and even thepeople who did remember them are

(01:09:19):
also maybe not with us orlosing things.
But I don't know, maybe youjust pass things along to people
and you influence them in waysthat you may never know.
It's like the better butterflyeffect, and so maybe, even when
memory isn't a conscious thinganymore, it lives on in some
other realm.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Thank you for that answer.
This has been an episode ofrecords in real estate.
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