September 9, 2025 • 33 mins
Topics:
- Impact of Gut Health on Addiction
- Balancing Body, Mind, and Heart
- Future Directions and Stop Circuit
In this week's episode, DeAnn and Craig record a follow-up to our last episode featuring Adam Sud and the power of nutrition as a tool for sustainable recovery. They discuss the impact of diet and exercise on recovery. Craig emphasizes the importance of a balanced caloric environment, encompassing the types of food consumed and the utilization of calories. They explore the role of the microbiome in health, noting studies on cocaine's effect on glycine levels and how gut bacteria can influence addiction. DeAnn shares her personal recovery journey, emphasizing the significance of the balance of heart, mind, and body and the role the enneagram played in building this understanding.
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Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:00):
Hello, welcome back. You may have noticed that
(00:03):
Craig wasn't on the episode withAdam, so he has had a little
chance to catch up on theconversation that Adam and I
had, and we wanted to talk alittle bit about some of his
perspectives on that discussion.
So nice to have you back on theshow, Craig.
Craig Knighton (00:19):
Hey, DeAnn. Hey, thanks for covering for me. For
everyone's benefit, I was outfor 10 days traveling to Alaska.
I've never been before, andactually coming back from that
trip, and especially the end ofthe trip, there's so much
nature. I mean, traveling toAlaska is all about being in
nature. And we ended the tripwith three days in deannon
(00:41):
League Park and and had a chanceto literally hike our butts off,
and we're exhausted, and that'sjust such a even though it's
tiring, it's such a rejuvenatingthing for my wife and I to do.
So it was kind of cool to comeback and catch up and hear the
episode with Adam. So I thoughtit would be fun to talk a little
(01:01):
bit more about what we heardthere and and then there are a
few things that it made me thinkabout that I think are worth
kind of discussion as a afterthought. So what do you think?
Dive in.
DeAnn Knighton (01:15):
Yeah. Dive in.
And, yeah. I think it also cantee up some of the places we
want to go, because there was alot of things that it spoke on
the dopamine episode that wereleased prior to Adam's
episode, I think dovetailsreally nicely with a lot of what
we talk about with Adam. Butthere's a there's several other
threads, I think, as well thatdeserves some further
(01:35):
exploration. Well, the first
Craig Knighton (01:39):
thing was that it's, I think it's a little easy
to get too focused just ondopamine. Is like, Oh, that
explains addiction, right? It'sjust the dopamine go circuit
thing, because there are so manymore elements to it that I
thought came out well in Adam'sdiscussion, like this idea of
caloric environment, and theidea that, yes, it's about the
(02:02):
total number of calories youtake in, but it's so much richer
than that. It's it's even wherethose calories come from. It's
the how you balance the sourcesof fat, sugar and protein and
other things that we we need inour diet. It's the kinds of food
and the number of differentthings that we eat to create
(02:24):
that kind of blended diet. Andit's also, I thinking back to my
recent experience doing a lot ofexercise in nature too. I think
there's even something to besaid for it, relating to how you
spend those calories too. Likeyour caloric environment is not
only about your intake, but it'sabout how you use that energy
that you've eaten, and when youuse that energy to hike in
(02:48):
nature with people you love,there's just no greater joy in
doing something like that. Sothat really jumped out at me. I
like that idea.
DeAnn Knighton (02:57):
Yeah, me too. I enjoyed his explanation of that.
And I bet if he was here, hewould probably agree in what you
were saying, because he didreally sum it up as in terms of
that study, as a pretty broadscope of what makes up that
environment. And so I wouldthink how you would utilize it
definitely makes sense.
Craig Knighton (03:16):
I also had some recent thoughts about how that
kind of balance is its own formof I'm going to connect it to
recent topics we've had where wetalked about spirituality,
right? Because I see that. I seebalance in spirituality being
very tightly intertwined. Ithink there is a lot that can be
(03:38):
said about how nature andcommunity creates a form of
spirituality that is definitelyrejuvenating and increases our
resilience and probablycontributes to better long term
recovery. I felt that comingthrough in Adam's conversation.
DeAnn Knighton (03:56):
I know we're going to talk a little bit
later, maybe about my connectionwith some of this and and the
connection of food and body andit 100% has a spiritual
component to it. You'll see whenwe get into it. And I, I really
love what you're saying aboutthe balance piece, because I
think that the balance piecebecomes the trigger for helping
(04:21):
you to manage yourself a littlebit, maybe parent yourself a
little bit, because if youunderstand the balance and the
formula, then you know andunderstand why certain things
are going to give you a longterm benefit. And you know it
like to your core, not becausesomebody told you, but because
you actually believe that itwill. And that was the biggest
difference for me, because I wastold for a long time. I mean,
(04:43):
how many times do we tell peopleeat, break and exercise, right?
I mean, that it's almost painfulto hear sometimes. However,
there was a pivot for me fromlike Just hearing that as noise
to like actually feeling it aspart of what I needed. To get
better. So I think it's reallyimportant. So let's talk a
(05:04):
little bit more about some ofthe connections you saw in
Adam's work, some of the thingsthat you've been thinking about.
Craig Knighton (05:11):
Well, probably the biggest thing is, and this
is going to get a little bitfringy, I have been reading a
lot about new studies that startto look at the relationship of
our gut, right, our microbiome,as it's called, and our health
in general, and various aspectsof health. And just to make sure
(05:37):
that everybody's clear on whatI'm talking about here, I'm
talking about basically how ourstomachs are full of these
various different microbes,bacteria and other things,
right, that are all involved inour digestion process, and all
of those little animals that areliving in our gut create this
biome, this biologicalenvironment that ends up
(06:00):
affecting how we feel. It endsup affecting our brain
functions. It ends up affectinghow we metabolize food and
convert it into energy. Andthere's all these secondary
effects that the microbiomeseems to have, and I think it's
one of the more promising formsof research that will move us in
(06:23):
a scientific way, away fromthinking only of chemicals as
drugs, to also thinking abouthow we can influence our health
through directly affecting ourmicrobiome, or even in some
respects, transplanting healthybacteria into our stomachs, so
that our stomachs becomehealthier, so that we become
(06:45):
healthier, right? That thissounds wishy washy. It sounds
like, Oh, I'm going to eatgranola and then I'll be
healthier. But there's actuallyan increasing amount of science
backing the idea that you canaffect your health through what
you eat, through the chemicalsthat you take into your body and
how that affects your gut,
DeAnn Knighton (07:04):
definitely right. And there's connections
with serotonin and likedepression elements, but also
you can just imagine, like thehavoc of long term alcohol use,
what that does to your stomachand your your digestion, and how
getting that back regulated canhelp just kind of with that
process of feeling like a morefull human I really liked what
(07:25):
Adam talked about and the truththat he spoke about his
experience of starting thatsobriety journey and realizing,
like, I don't want to be soberfor this. I have a problem. If
this is what sobriety lookslike, I don't have it. I don't
I'm not motivated enough, right?
And so looking at these otherelements are what kind of helped
turn that for him, and I thinkthat that's interesting to think
(07:47):
of other people in this journey,if there are ways that they can
get kind of a leg up or somehelp with something, just to
start moving that incrementallycloser to overall feeling
better. It's hard to say how wewould measure exactly the impact
of it, but, and I know you like,there's got to be a way. But you
(08:08):
know, those incremental thingsare going to contribute to the
bigger picture of, Do I havesomething out there that is
worth staying sober for, and alife and a body and health and
the things that are worthstaying sober for,
Craig Knighton (08:23):
right? So the when I zoom all the way out,
like you just did, I get alittle bit overwhelmed, because
it's so complex that it's kindof hard to follow. Like I, how
do I see that? I, how do I seecause and effect and all of
that, and how do I figure outwhat really mattered? And
there's so many variables,right? So I thought maybe I
(08:47):
would just talk you through,like, one specific set of
studies and an example of howthe gut and brain affect each
other, and studies related donein mice, granted, and not tried
yet in humans, but how studiesof the impact of substances on
their biology show some of thesecondary effects and things
(09:11):
that happen that affect the gut,and then how the that gut
changes affect the body and thebrain, and then how the effects
on the brain create this viciouscycle that feeds the problem and
that caused it in the firstplace, and so it just sort of
gets out of control and becomesfull blown addiction. This case
(09:32):
is actually relates to cocaine,which isn't the specific
substance we talk about themost, but it certainly is very
similar to alcohol and itseffect on the release of
dopamine. In fact, it releases alot more dopamine than alcohol
does. But the other thing thatit does is have an impact in our
(09:54):
bodies on something calledglycine. Do you if you ever
heard of glycine? You know whatit is? About it? Well. May
describe it, not from a like achemical point of view, but but
more like how having it or nothaving it affects us. So it's an
amino acid. I'm not even surewhat that really is, but it is
one. But what's more importantis that if you have a glycine
(10:15):
deficiency in your body, it'snot even considered essential.
But if you're deficient inglycine. There's all these other
side effects that that pop out,including neural dysfunction,
like the brain fog. It veryclearly is described as a brain
fog that can result you can havefatigue, you feel sluggish, you
(10:37):
have difficulty recovering yourbody recovering from injury or
exercise, that kind of thing.
There's all these other justsort of feel bad, kind of side
effects and low glycine levels.
So why is that important? Well,it turns out that there's this
chain reaction that cocaine usehas on bodies of mice, and I
(11:00):
believe also in people, where,if you use cocaine, it also one
of the things it does is affectsthe chemistry. It releases
chemicals, or changes thechemical composition in your
stomach, such that there's ashift in the bacteria in your
stomach. And bacteria, badbacteria, like E coli and other
(11:24):
I think they're called, likeproteo bacteria, tend to
flourish because of the cocaineuse. And these bad bacteria, one
of the things they do is eatglycine, so your body is busy
eating food and trying to makeglycine by digesting it from
your food, and instead of itmaking it into your body, the
(11:46):
bacteria, bad bacteria in yourstomach are eating eating it up,
right? So your glycine levelsdrop in your stomach and in your
body, and eventually in yourbrain as well, right the your
whole body becomes glycinedeficient, if you have too much
of this bad bacteria in yourstomach, and the fatigue and
(12:09):
brain fog that results from lowglycine levels really inhibits
your stock circuit, right? Likewhat they see in mice who become
glycine deficient is suddenlythey are just moving almost
spastically, like they'researching, and they're clearly
(12:29):
going through like visibleseeking behavior as they're
trying to find something to makethis awful feeling go away, and
especially if that's somethingthey can Find in their
environment is cocaine to makethe awful feeling go away, they
just almost immediately getstuck in this even more
aggressive, addictive loop thatthey're in, right and then it
(12:51):
just spirals worse. The morecocaine you have, the lower your
glycine levels drop, the moreinhibited your stop circuit is
and brain function, and the morefatigued you are, and the more
cocaine you want to consume totry to feel better. And what's
fascinating is how theydemonstrated both the cause and
(13:12):
then sort of the effect byreversing it. They They also
figured out that they couldmodify those same bacteria so
that they don't consume glycine,and they replace the bacteria in
the mice's stomach with thismodified bacteria that doesn't
consume glycine, and the micereturn to normal, their their
(13:34):
spastic running around, seekingbehavior stopped, and especially
if We don't know what mice arethinking and feeling, but if you
interpret that behavior ascraving and seeking behavior in
the in the animal, it reallylooks promising that you might
be able to limit or control thatsort of craving and seeking
(13:56):
behavior just simply byintroducing either modified bad
bacteria or healthier bacteriainto your stomach to help
moderate the cravings. Yeah,that's so isn't that
DeAnn Knighton (14:08):
crazy? Yeah, and there's natural ways I'm sure,
to do it
Craig Knighton (14:12):
absolutely so it doesn't happen. It doesn't
depend the treatment. Doesn'tdepend on using genetically
modified bacteria. So if that'snot your thing, it wouldn't
necessarily require that youmight even be able to do it just
by eating the right kind andamount of probiotics to be able
to shift the microbiome in yourstomach back to healthy levels,
(14:36):
or some form of naturaltransplant, frankly, of healthy
bacteria into your stomach tofix it.
DeAnn Knighton (14:43):
Yeah, and then it's maintenance of that as
well, right? Like to be able tosustain that impact. And you
know, it makes me think too. Iwonder if there is sort of
relatedly, if this ties in atall with the idea around the
power of. Absorption. That'ssomething that I've been really
fascinated by. It recently, fromthe standpoint of the
(15:06):
effectiveness of certain likeprescribed drugs to help people
with depression and anxiety, andhow much absorption plays a
drastic role in the impact theyhave on that person and whether
they feel the effect. And so Idon't know how much there's tied
there, but I'm thinking of like,yeah, the gut has to play a role
(15:26):
in the absorption piece.
Craig Knighton (15:27):
I absolutely does. Yeah, this might sound
like pseudoscience, but I take aspecific formulation of vitamins
that's supposed to help withmacular degeneration. And what's
interesting is not the vitaminsthemselves, but what's
interesting is that myoptometrist focuses on measuring
(15:49):
the absorption rates of thosevitamins, and he knows
specifically when in your dayyou should take it to maximize
the absorption, and it's within30 minutes after your eat your
dinner meal, and they canmeasure the absorption of the
chemicals through a device youhold in your hand that uses like
(16:09):
conductivity of your skin tomeasure absorption rate of the
vitamins. And so they can provethat through changing your
behavior and when you took thevitamin, you increase the
absorption into your body, andthey can measure the increased
absorption. So I agree with you.
It's fascinating, and it's it'smeasurable. All of these things
are things that you can measureabout our bodies, right? And you
(16:32):
can measure your glycine levels.
In fact, one of the things thatis true, but they don't
understand yet, is they do knowthat alcohol, especially at high
levels like binging, definitelycauses significant decreases in
glycine a few days or a dayafter the alcohol is used, and
(16:55):
so your glycine levels do dropwhen you use alcohol. We don't
exactly know it's not likecocaine, where you they can
connect the dots and point toexactly why it happens. And we
don't know if it goes throughthe gut, brain access or not
yet, but I'm sure they'll try tofigure that out. Closely related
to that there's, there's,weirdly enough, in studying
(17:18):
glycine, they've been able todetermine that glycine has a
deterrent effect, a protectiveeffect on your liver, and that
higher glycine levels will helpprotect your liver from alcohol
by ensuring that more of thealcohol is processed in your
stomach, instead of making itinto your liver and then doing
(17:38):
the damage that does to yourliver. So there's even
protective effects of higherglycine levels. And that shows
promise for trying to improvedigestion, maintain higher
glycine levels overall, and justoverall, make us less
susceptible to alcohol as adrug.
DeAnn Knighton (17:56):
Yeah, you know.
And I'm thinking now just of theamino acid impact and my
understanding, and again, Idon't know. Now I feel like I
might need to look this up andcheck myself that there is a
correlation with stressmanagement the adrenal system to
some degree. And it does make methink about that connection.
I've heard phrased many times,and I've repeated it many times,
that drinking alcohol is likepouring foreign gasoline on your
(18:19):
anxiety, right? Because itinhibits on the back end of it,
and the response that you threedays after is a lack of ability
to manage and handle stress andanxiety in ways that you are
capable of. And so it feelsworse, and then it makes you
want
Craig Knighton (18:38):
to feel worse, and then you want to drink again
in order to try to feel better,in order to Yeah, you can see
how the addictive cycledevelops, and we're not even
talking about dopamine. None ofthis has to do with dopamine.
It's it's like a slower responsethrough your body that occurs
over days and weeks andgenerally cycles out of control,
(19:01):
or might, or maybe in somepeople, it doesn't right, just
depending on all of the factorsyou just described.
DeAnn Knighton (19:08):
Yeah, it makes me want to look at the
ingredients on the hangovercures that I see at 711 you
know, because I'm like, I wonderif this is utilizing the idea
Craig Knighton (19:21):
right, which might just be glycine shots,
yeah, I don't know maybe it is,
DeAnn Knighton (19:28):
but yeah, that's interesting. I yeah, I think
that there's a lot there. And Ithink the tricky part with all
of this is what Adam was talkingabout, how shocking it was for
him to realize how littleresearch on nutrition and
recovery had been done, and itis shocking to hear, but then
also, after being around thisfor a few years, it's not
shocking to hear,
Craig Knighton (19:46):
in a weird way, though, his point was so good
when he said, Look, you know,when you're in inpatient
treatment, one of the thingsthat you have to do is feed the
people that are there. So if youare. Just careful about how you
feed them. Why wouldn't you feedthem in a way that ensures that
you increase the likelihood oftheir recovery or maybe help
(20:09):
them develop new caloricenvironments and new habits?
Right? New habits? What harmcould happen? You have to feed
them anyway, so yeah, whywouldn't you just try that
absolutely makes so much sense,
DeAnn Knighton (20:22):
it does, and there's a similar not to go down
another rabbit hole too deep,but there's a lot of in the
media about this right now.
That's why I want to bring itup. But there is a lot about the
utilization of recovery fromsubstance and the elimination of
tobacco use in those programs asa way to benefit the overall
health of people who are inrecovery. However, there's
there. It's tricky, right?
(20:45):
Because would you rather takeeverything away? You can't take
everything away at the sametime, and you
Craig Knighton (20:51):
can't take nicotine, caffeine and
everything else away whileyou're also trying to and why
would you
DeAnn Knighton (20:56):
do that? And if it's stopping somebody from
doing heroin, then please smokethe cigarette right now, right
there is a counterbalance tothat insurance. However, it
there is also the flip side,which is you're kind of doing
this thing anyway. Why notincrease, you know, all of the
factors that are going to helpyou stay in recovery. And there
(21:17):
is a correlation with tobaccouse and long term abstinence,
basically,
Craig Knighton (21:22):
yeah, well, you mentioned this earlier, but
maybe reflect a little bit onwhat all of this is like. Has
been like for you, like you'remore than five years into
recovery. Clearly, in long termrecovery, I'm I certainly recall
very clearly how important dietand exercise was to you, and
that in those first few monthsand first year of of recovery.
(21:45):
But what's how does all of this?
How did listening to Adam relateto your own personal experience
in long term recovery?
DeAnn Knighton (21:53):
Yeah, there's so much I can say here that I have
to be careful. This could beprobably three episodes, because
it is such an important part
Unknown (22:01):
of maybe it should be, maybe it should be, but
DeAnn Knighton (22:04):
let me, let me just see what I can summarize
here that I think applies. Myfirst year of recovery was very
unpleasant, and the only thingthat ever helped me feel just
slightly better at that time wasgoing to yoga. And every single
day I would go, I don't want togo, and I would go because I
knew it wouldn't make me feelworse. I felt so bad that I knew
(22:28):
anything that would help me feeljust a little bit better was
worth it, and so it gave me thislike investment in it that I had
never had before, right wherethere wasn't anything else to
fill that hole for me, exceptfor that. And so I leaned into
just pushing myself to move mybody as much as I could. And I
(22:49):
got by that way, you know, andthen ultimately I started
feeling progressively a lotbetter, and my health overall
improved, and all kinds ofbenefits came from it. But it
really was like I was sograsping for anything to sustain
me. I didn't have a lot in mylife at that time, too, in terms
of, like, social connection andthings like that. And so, yeah,
(23:11):
it was, it plugged a big hole,and it became a big part of the
story for me. So that that's onepiece of it, the other piece I
have to mention. And I don'tknow how much you and I have
ever talked about this before,exercise, diet, food has had a
massive impact on my entirelife, right? And there's a lot
of elements that go into it.
Part of that is being a womanand the connection of my
(23:33):
struggles with weight andacceptance and bullying that
took part for me in my highschool years, and a whole lots
of ways that my body and myobsession with my body took over
my life at a lot of differenttimes yet, to no avail. Yet, I
wasn't healthy yet, I didn'tfeel better. However, this thing
(23:53):
controlled me for a large aspectof my life as I have begun this
work over the last seven years,and worked a lot with other
women, there is a hugecorrelation to body image,
weight management and all ofthat, and alcohol use and drug
use. And there's, there's awhole element there. It is such
(24:13):
an important part of my journey,because it was also a part of me
coming into myself a little bitmore and not disassociating as
much as I have learned to do,because I have learned to ignore
my body for most of my life,like don't think about it, don't
look at it. Oh, you're hungry.
(24:34):
Too bad. Oh, you just ate toomuch. You have a stomach ache.
Too bad. I just learned to shutit off. And so now, all of a
sudden, I'm in this place whereI can actually start paying
attention to it. And there wassomething actually very
spiritual about that for me.
Yeah, and, and, and the biggestpiece that I can speak of, and
then I I'll stop after this. Butthe biggest thing is that
(24:55):
balance piece that you talkedabout. So one of my little side
journeys. Early in recovery, andI would recommend it for anyone
who kind of likes this kind ofstuff. I'm not trying to get
Woo. Woo on you. But there issomething here, and it has to do
with the Enneagram, which a lotof people might be familiar
with. But the Enneagram is ninedifferent subtypes of
personality, essentially, thatare based on, like, a core need
(25:16):
that drive that personalitytype, and people who lean
towards that, yes, it putspeople in buckets. It's not it's
not holistic all of thosethings. But within that, you
have these three categories,body, mind and heart types. And
yet, there are people who arejust typically more wired in
(25:36):
particular ways. I have likedthis because I identify myself
as a head type, little bit morein the anxiety category, the
worry category, I probably putyou in head type two, a little
bit more on the intellectualthere's a there's a five
category, which I feel likemaybe kind of encompasses you a
little bit. Not that I want toput you in too much of a box.
(25:59):
I'm more of a seven in the headtype, which leans more towards
even more anxiety. So I learnedin my recovery how much time I
had spent trying to think my wayout of everything my entire life
had been thinking from back tolike a little kid. I can
remember that that is how Ifunctioned, and that in that I
had ignored these other elementsof myself, and so heart type is
(26:23):
definitely where you're going tofind people who are just sort of
more naturally sociallyconnected and intend to get a
lot of energy out of that socialinteraction to the point that
they'll forego anything for it,that they're so driven by that,
that it sometimes can get theminto trouble because they don't
take care of their own needs,right? They give so much of
(26:47):
themselves that they don't takecare of themselves. And then
that has a downside too, right?
All of this has an upside and adownside, and then the other the
body type, right? Are people whoare kind of wired in their body.
They respond to anger like,Okay, quickly, right? Yes, there
is, and there's three types thatkind of fit within that. This
(27:09):
triad I found so helpful for menow that I know myself as a head
type, I recognize and understandthat getting in my body and
getting in my heart are notthings that naturally happen for
me, that there has to be anelement of effort for me to get
there. I know I'm going to spendplenty of time in my head every
day. Sure that part is noproblem. I don't know if I'm
(27:33):
going to spend time in my body,because, especially if I'm too
in my head, being in my bodyscares me, because then I'm
going to be thinking aboutthings I've been trying to avoid
thinking about. But I also know,like in my core, I have seen how
much like, if I'm balanced, andI create opportunities to be in
my body every single day, and Iget in a pattern of that, that
(27:56):
my overall outlook on life isjust better. And yeah, same
thing with heart. So heart is aninteresting one, because I can
think compassion all day long,and I can feel it too, but there
is an element of some of thedetachment I have from scary
emotions where I have to forcemyself to be present. This is
(28:20):
about the here and now, totally,yeah, this is about, like, I am
here, and I'm with my brotherand my sister in a room, and I
haven't seen them in a year, andthis, like, feels so good, and
I'm feeling the joy of thatconnection, and not just
thinking about the joy of thatconnection. And I'm taking a
moment to, like, acknowledge thephysical presence, or like, I
(28:41):
have to actually do it. I haveto, I have to say, like, folks,
stop for a minute, like, what'shappening, and then get myself
into my heart. This may soundsuper cheesy and crazy,
Craig Knighton (28:53):
makes sense to me that it worked for me. Nature
is one of the most naturalgateways to art, right? Because
if you just get outside and getinto nature, that presence,
becoming present with naturehappens very naturally. I've
been doing a lot more withplants and growing, and as soon
(29:15):
as I get into the garden, I'mimmediately in that place in
what it's like, this great hack,right? Because you don't have to
think your way into your body orinto your heart. It just happens
naturally by being outside,working on plants.
DeAnn Knighton (29:32):
And I have found, and I love it too, and I
have, actually, that's one of mylittle treasure things, where I
have looked back and gone my momand dad knew what they were
talking about in some way whenthey told me, just like, get out
and do stuff in the yard,because, you know, they valued
that, and they didn't value itfor the same reasons we're
talking about right now, butthey just knew that it helped
(29:53):
them feel better overall. Sure,they just had a knowing that it
was good for them. And I. Havefelt connected to them in that
practice, for sure. And theother thing I want to say with
nature is, I have to give mylittle spiel for pets. Pets are
a huge piece for this, for metoo, right? There is something
about this, like living beingthat's in my home that if I do
(30:15):
need to connect with, like lifeforce, I can feel my dog breathe
and I can just be like, Okay,there's a breath or or,
obviously kids help, oh, sure,and especially if you focus on
being present with them. But Ihave to make an effort to do
that, because otherwise I can belike, Oh yeah, just over here.
Craig Knighton (30:36):
So my happy place is a cat on my lap. Yeah.
And cats, when they reallysettle in and really stretch
out, they just like they justtotally let go. There is no
stress in them, in any way,shape or form, they're
completely happy. And it justsort of radiates into your body
(30:59):
when they do that. It's a greatthing.
DeAnn Knighton (31:01):
Yeah, that really is my little spirituality
hack right there.
Craig Knighton (31:06):
I love it. We'll have to do a whole episode on
it, yeah, let me make a quicktransition to sort of because I
think this is a greatintegrating conversation of
several things that we've talkedabout, and then where it takes
us. I think so much of why somepeople bend and other people
break has to do with this.
What's happening with your hereand now and stop circuit and
(31:30):
those things failing you in away that means you don't recover
or don't have the resiliencethat other people have. And so I
think that's a good topic todive into next to kind of focus
on the stop circuit and itsfunction and dysfunction, and
what are the chemicals involvedin managing all of how we feel
(31:51):
in our bodies and in our minds,and how that affects the
neurotransmission and and healthof our brain, right? And and
that includes things likeserotonin and oxytocin, the love
right? Chemical, right? The lovehormone. All of those things are
huge influencers on on how wefeel and our state of mind. And
(32:13):
I think are a big part of whathelp us just be calm and yes and
feel safe and be in our body andnot hurt and and be sated right,
be be satiated in a way thatallows us to just stop, to not
need to go anywhere or doanything or seek anything, to
(32:35):
try to feel better. Just I
DeAnn Knighton (32:38):
think that all like plays in really well, and
it seems like a great direction.
Craig Knighton (32:43):
So thank you.
Work on that soon. Thank you.
It's good to be back. Good totalk to you. Good to see you.
Bye.
Hello, welcome back. You may have noticed that
(00:03):
Craig wasn't on the episode withAdam, so he has had a little
chance to catch up on theconversation that Adam and I
had, and we wanted to talk alittle bit about some of his
perspectives on that discussion.
So nice to have you back on theshow, Craig.
Craig Knighton (00:19):
Hey, DeAnn. Hey, thanks for covering for me. For
everyone's benefit, I was outfor 10 days traveling to Alaska.
I've never been before, andactually coming back from that
trip, and especially the end ofthe trip, there's so much
nature. I mean, traveling toAlaska is all about being in
nature. And we ended the tripwith three days in deannon
(00:41):
League Park and and had a chanceto literally hike our butts off,
and we're exhausted, and that'sjust such a even though it's
tiring, it's such a rejuvenatingthing for my wife and I to do.
So it was kind of cool to comeback and catch up and hear the
episode with Adam. So I thoughtit would be fun to talk a little
(01:01):
bit more about what we heardthere and and then there are a
few things that it made me thinkabout that I think are worth
kind of discussion as a afterthought. So what do you think?
Dive in.
DeAnn Knighton (01:15):
Yeah. Dive in.
And, yeah. I think it also cantee up some of the places we
want to go, because there was alot of things that it spoke on
the dopamine episode that wereleased prior to Adam's
episode, I think dovetailsreally nicely with a lot of what
we talk about with Adam. Butthere's a there's several other
threads, I think, as well thatdeserves some further
(01:35):
exploration. Well, the first
Craig Knighton (01:39):
thing was that it's, I think it's a little easy
to get too focused just ondopamine. Is like, Oh, that
explains addiction, right? It'sjust the dopamine go circuit
thing, because there are so manymore elements to it that I
thought came out well in Adam'sdiscussion, like this idea of
caloric environment, and theidea that, yes, it's about the
(02:02):
total number of calories youtake in, but it's so much richer
than that. It's it's even wherethose calories come from. It's
the how you balance the sourcesof fat, sugar and protein and
other things that we we need inour diet. It's the kinds of food
and the number of differentthings that we eat to create
(02:24):
that kind of blended diet. Andit's also, I thinking back to my
recent experience doing a lot ofexercise in nature too. I think
there's even something to besaid for it, relating to how you
spend those calories too. Likeyour caloric environment is not
only about your intake, but it'sabout how you use that energy
that you've eaten, and when youuse that energy to hike in
(02:48):
nature with people you love,there's just no greater joy in
doing something like that. Sothat really jumped out at me. I
like that idea.
DeAnn Knighton (02:57):
Yeah, me too. I enjoyed his explanation of that.
And I bet if he was here, hewould probably agree in what you
were saying, because he didreally sum it up as in terms of
that study, as a pretty broadscope of what makes up that
environment. And so I wouldthink how you would utilize it
definitely makes sense.
Craig Knighton (03:16):
I also had some recent thoughts about how that
kind of balance is its own formof I'm going to connect it to
recent topics we've had where wetalked about spirituality,
right? Because I see that. I seebalance in spirituality being
very tightly intertwined. Ithink there is a lot that can be
(03:38):
said about how nature andcommunity creates a form of
spirituality that is definitelyrejuvenating and increases our
resilience and probablycontributes to better long term
recovery. I felt that comingthrough in Adam's conversation.
DeAnn Knighton (03:56):
I know we're going to talk a little bit
later, maybe about my connectionwith some of this and and the
connection of food and body andit 100% has a spiritual
component to it. You'll see whenwe get into it. And I, I really
love what you're saying aboutthe balance piece, because I
think that the balance piecebecomes the trigger for helping
(04:21):
you to manage yourself a littlebit, maybe parent yourself a
little bit, because if youunderstand the balance and the
formula, then you know andunderstand why certain things
are going to give you a longterm benefit. And you know it
like to your core, not becausesomebody told you, but because
you actually believe that itwill. And that was the biggest
difference for me, because I wastold for a long time. I mean,
(04:43):
how many times do we tell peopleeat, break and exercise, right?
I mean, that it's almost painfulto hear sometimes. However,
there was a pivot for me fromlike Just hearing that as noise
to like actually feeling it aspart of what I needed. To get
better. So I think it's reallyimportant. So let's talk a
(05:04):
little bit more about some ofthe connections you saw in
Adam's work, some of the thingsthat you've been thinking about.
Craig Knighton (05:11):
Well, probably the biggest thing is, and this
is going to get a little bitfringy, I have been reading a
lot about new studies that startto look at the relationship of
our gut, right, our microbiome,as it's called, and our health
in general, and various aspectsof health. And just to make sure
(05:37):
that everybody's clear on whatI'm talking about here, I'm
talking about basically how ourstomachs are full of these
various different microbes,bacteria and other things,
right, that are all involved inour digestion process, and all
of those little animals that areliving in our gut create this
biome, this biologicalenvironment that ends up
(06:00):
affecting how we feel. It endsup affecting our brain
functions. It ends up affectinghow we metabolize food and
convert it into energy. Andthere's all these secondary
effects that the microbiomeseems to have, and I think it's
one of the more promising formsof research that will move us in
(06:23):
a scientific way, away fromthinking only of chemicals as
drugs, to also thinking abouthow we can influence our health
through directly affecting ourmicrobiome, or even in some
respects, transplanting healthybacteria into our stomachs, so
that our stomachs becomehealthier, so that we become
(06:45):
healthier, right? That thissounds wishy washy. It sounds
like, Oh, I'm going to eatgranola and then I'll be
healthier. But there's actuallyan increasing amount of science
backing the idea that you canaffect your health through what
you eat, through the chemicalsthat you take into your body and
how that affects your gut,
DeAnn Knighton (07:04):
definitely right. And there's connections
with serotonin and likedepression elements, but also
you can just imagine, like thehavoc of long term alcohol use,
what that does to your stomachand your your digestion, and how
getting that back regulated canhelp just kind of with that
process of feeling like a morefull human I really liked what
(07:25):
Adam talked about and the truththat he spoke about his
experience of starting thatsobriety journey and realizing,
like, I don't want to be soberfor this. I have a problem. If
this is what sobriety lookslike, I don't have it. I don't
I'm not motivated enough, right?
And so looking at these otherelements are what kind of helped
turn that for him, and I thinkthat that's interesting to think
(07:47):
of other people in this journey,if there are ways that they can
get kind of a leg up or somehelp with something, just to
start moving that incrementallycloser to overall feeling
better. It's hard to say how wewould measure exactly the impact
of it, but, and I know you like,there's got to be a way. But you
(08:08):
know, those incremental thingsare going to contribute to the
bigger picture of, Do I havesomething out there that is
worth staying sober for, and alife and a body and health and
the things that are worthstaying sober for,
Craig Knighton (08:23):
right? So the when I zoom all the way out,
like you just did, I get alittle bit overwhelmed, because
it's so complex that it's kindof hard to follow. Like I, how
do I see that? I, how do I seecause and effect and all of
that, and how do I figure outwhat really mattered? And
there's so many variables,right? So I thought maybe I
(08:47):
would just talk you through,like, one specific set of
studies and an example of howthe gut and brain affect each
other, and studies related donein mice, granted, and not tried
yet in humans, but how studiesof the impact of substances on
their biology show some of thesecondary effects and things
(09:11):
that happen that affect the gut,and then how the that gut
changes affect the body and thebrain, and then how the effects
on the brain create this viciouscycle that feeds the problem and
that caused it in the firstplace, and so it just sort of
gets out of control and becomesfull blown addiction. This case
(09:32):
is actually relates to cocaine,which isn't the specific
substance we talk about themost, but it certainly is very
similar to alcohol and itseffect on the release of
dopamine. In fact, it releases alot more dopamine than alcohol
does. But the other thing thatit does is have an impact in our
(09:54):
bodies on something calledglycine. Do you if you ever
heard of glycine? You know whatit is? About it? Well. May
describe it, not from a like achemical point of view, but but
more like how having it or nothaving it affects us. So it's an
amino acid. I'm not even surewhat that really is, but it is
one. But what's more importantis that if you have a glycine
(10:15):
deficiency in your body, it'snot even considered essential.
But if you're deficient inglycine. There's all these other
side effects that that pop out,including neural dysfunction,
like the brain fog. It veryclearly is described as a brain
fog that can result you can havefatigue, you feel sluggish, you
(10:37):
have difficulty recovering yourbody recovering from injury or
exercise, that kind of thing.
There's all these other justsort of feel bad, kind of side
effects and low glycine levels.
So why is that important? Well,it turns out that there's this
chain reaction that cocaine usehas on bodies of mice, and I
(11:00):
believe also in people, where,if you use cocaine, it also one
of the things it does is affectsthe chemistry. It releases
chemicals, or changes thechemical composition in your
stomach, such that there's ashift in the bacteria in your
stomach. And bacteria, badbacteria, like E coli and other
(11:24):
I think they're called, likeproteo bacteria, tend to
flourish because of the cocaineuse. And these bad bacteria, one
of the things they do is eatglycine, so your body is busy
eating food and trying to makeglycine by digesting it from
your food, and instead of itmaking it into your body, the
(11:46):
bacteria, bad bacteria in yourstomach are eating eating it up,
right? So your glycine levelsdrop in your stomach and in your
body, and eventually in yourbrain as well, right the your
whole body becomes glycinedeficient, if you have too much
of this bad bacteria in yourstomach, and the fatigue and
(12:09):
brain fog that results from lowglycine levels really inhibits
your stock circuit, right? Likewhat they see in mice who become
glycine deficient is suddenlythey are just moving almost
spastically, like they'researching, and they're clearly
(12:29):
going through like visibleseeking behavior as they're
trying to find something to makethis awful feeling go away, and
especially if that's somethingthey can Find in their
environment is cocaine to makethe awful feeling go away, they
just almost immediately getstuck in this even more
aggressive, addictive loop thatthey're in, right and then it
(12:51):
just spirals worse. The morecocaine you have, the lower your
glycine levels drop, the moreinhibited your stop circuit is
and brain function, and the morefatigued you are, and the more
cocaine you want to consume totry to feel better. And what's
fascinating is how theydemonstrated both the cause and
(13:12):
then sort of the effect byreversing it. They They also
figured out that they couldmodify those same bacteria so
that they don't consume glycine,and they replace the bacteria in
the mice's stomach with thismodified bacteria that doesn't
consume glycine, and the micereturn to normal, their their
(13:34):
spastic running around, seekingbehavior stopped, and especially
if We don't know what mice arethinking and feeling, but if you
interpret that behavior ascraving and seeking behavior in
the in the animal, it reallylooks promising that you might
be able to limit or control thatsort of craving and seeking
(13:56):
behavior just simply byintroducing either modified bad
bacteria or healthier bacteriainto your stomach to help
moderate the cravings. Yeah,that's so isn't that
DeAnn Knighton (14:08):
crazy? Yeah, and there's natural ways I'm sure,
to do it
Craig Knighton (14:12):
absolutely so it doesn't happen. It doesn't
depend the treatment. Doesn'tdepend on using genetically
modified bacteria. So if that'snot your thing, it wouldn't
necessarily require that youmight even be able to do it just
by eating the right kind andamount of probiotics to be able
to shift the microbiome in yourstomach back to healthy levels,
(14:36):
or some form of naturaltransplant, frankly, of healthy
bacteria into your stomach tofix it.
DeAnn Knighton (14:43):
Yeah, and then it's maintenance of that as
well, right? Like to be able tosustain that impact. And you
know, it makes me think too. Iwonder if there is sort of
relatedly, if this ties in atall with the idea around the
power of. Absorption. That'ssomething that I've been really
fascinated by. It recently, fromthe standpoint of the
(15:06):
effectiveness of certain likeprescribed drugs to help people
with depression and anxiety, andhow much absorption plays a
drastic role in the impact theyhave on that person and whether
they feel the effect. And so Idon't know how much there's tied
there, but I'm thinking of like,yeah, the gut has to play a role
(15:26):
in the absorption piece.
Craig Knighton (15:27):
I absolutely does. Yeah, this might sound
like pseudoscience, but I take aspecific formulation of vitamins
that's supposed to help withmacular degeneration. And what's
interesting is not the vitaminsthemselves, but what's
interesting is that myoptometrist focuses on measuring
(15:49):
the absorption rates of thosevitamins, and he knows
specifically when in your dayyou should take it to maximize
the absorption, and it's within30 minutes after your eat your
dinner meal, and they canmeasure the absorption of the
chemicals through a device youhold in your hand that uses like
(16:09):
conductivity of your skin tomeasure absorption rate of the
vitamins. And so they can provethat through changing your
behavior and when you took thevitamin, you increase the
absorption into your body, andthey can measure the increased
absorption. So I agree with you.
It's fascinating, and it's it'smeasurable. All of these things
are things that you can measureabout our bodies, right? And you
(16:32):
can measure your glycine levels.
In fact, one of the things thatis true, but they don't
understand yet, is they do knowthat alcohol, especially at high
levels like binging, definitelycauses significant decreases in
glycine a few days or a dayafter the alcohol is used, and
(16:55):
so your glycine levels do dropwhen you use alcohol. We don't
exactly know it's not likecocaine, where you they can
connect the dots and point toexactly why it happens. And we
don't know if it goes throughthe gut, brain access or not
yet, but I'm sure they'll try tofigure that out. Closely related
to that there's, there's,weirdly enough, in studying
(17:18):
glycine, they've been able todetermine that glycine has a
deterrent effect, a protectiveeffect on your liver, and that
higher glycine levels will helpprotect your liver from alcohol
by ensuring that more of thealcohol is processed in your
stomach, instead of making itinto your liver and then doing
(17:38):
the damage that does to yourliver. So there's even
protective effects of higherglycine levels. And that shows
promise for trying to improvedigestion, maintain higher
glycine levels overall, and justoverall, make us less
susceptible to alcohol as adrug.
DeAnn Knighton (17:56):
Yeah, you know.
And I'm thinking now just of theamino acid impact and my
understanding, and again, Idon't know. Now I feel like I
might need to look this up andcheck myself that there is a
correlation with stressmanagement the adrenal system to
some degree. And it does make methink about that connection.
I've heard phrased many times,and I've repeated it many times,
that drinking alcohol is likepouring foreign gasoline on your
(18:19):
anxiety, right? Because itinhibits on the back end of it,
and the response that you threedays after is a lack of ability
to manage and handle stress andanxiety in ways that you are
capable of. And so it feelsworse, and then it makes you
want
Craig Knighton (18:38):
to feel worse, and then you want to drink again
in order to try to feel better,in order to Yeah, you can see
how the addictive cycledevelops, and we're not even
talking about dopamine. None ofthis has to do with dopamine.
It's it's like a slower responsethrough your body that occurs
over days and weeks andgenerally cycles out of control,
(19:01):
or might, or maybe in somepeople, it doesn't right, just
depending on all of the factorsyou just described.
DeAnn Knighton (19:08):
Yeah, it makes me want to look at the
ingredients on the hangovercures that I see at 711 you
know, because I'm like, I wonderif this is utilizing the idea
Craig Knighton (19:21):
right, which might just be glycine shots,
yeah, I don't know maybe it is,
DeAnn Knighton (19:28):
but yeah, that's interesting. I yeah, I think
that there's a lot there. And Ithink the tricky part with all
of this is what Adam was talkingabout, how shocking it was for
him to realize how littleresearch on nutrition and
recovery had been done, and itis shocking to hear, but then
also, after being around thisfor a few years, it's not
shocking to hear,
Craig Knighton (19:46):
in a weird way, though, his point was so good
when he said, Look, you know,when you're in inpatient
treatment, one of the thingsthat you have to do is feed the
people that are there. So if youare. Just careful about how you
feed them. Why wouldn't you feedthem in a way that ensures that
you increase the likelihood oftheir recovery or maybe help
(20:09):
them develop new caloricenvironments and new habits?
Right? New habits? What harmcould happen? You have to feed
them anyway, so yeah, whywouldn't you just try that
absolutely makes so much sense,
DeAnn Knighton (20:22):
it does, and there's a similar not to go down
another rabbit hole too deep,but there's a lot of in the
media about this right now.
That's why I want to bring itup. But there is a lot about the
utilization of recovery fromsubstance and the elimination of
tobacco use in those programs asa way to benefit the overall
health of people who are inrecovery. However, there's
there. It's tricky, right?
(20:45):
Because would you rather takeeverything away? You can't take
everything away at the sametime, and you
Craig Knighton (20:51):
can't take nicotine, caffeine and
everything else away whileyou're also trying to and why
would you
DeAnn Knighton (20:56):
do that? And if it's stopping somebody from
doing heroin, then please smokethe cigarette right now, right
there is a counterbalance tothat insurance. However, it
there is also the flip side,which is you're kind of doing
this thing anyway. Why notincrease, you know, all of the
factors that are going to helpyou stay in recovery. And there
(21:17):
is a correlation with tobaccouse and long term abstinence,
basically,
Craig Knighton (21:22):
yeah, well, you mentioned this earlier, but
maybe reflect a little bit onwhat all of this is like. Has
been like for you, like you'remore than five years into
recovery. Clearly, in long termrecovery, I'm I certainly recall
very clearly how important dietand exercise was to you, and
that in those first few monthsand first year of of recovery.
(21:45):
But what's how does all of this?
How did listening to Adam relateto your own personal experience
in long term recovery?
DeAnn Knighton (21:53):
Yeah, there's so much I can say here that I have
to be careful. This could beprobably three episodes, because
it is such an important part
Unknown (22:01):
of maybe it should be, maybe it should be, but
DeAnn Knighton (22:04):
let me, let me just see what I can summarize
here that I think applies. Myfirst year of recovery was very
unpleasant, and the only thingthat ever helped me feel just
slightly better at that time wasgoing to yoga. And every single
day I would go, I don't want togo, and I would go because I
knew it wouldn't make me feelworse. I felt so bad that I knew
(22:28):
anything that would help me feeljust a little bit better was
worth it, and so it gave me thislike investment in it that I had
never had before, right wherethere wasn't anything else to
fill that hole for me, exceptfor that. And so I leaned into
just pushing myself to move mybody as much as I could. And I
(22:49):
got by that way, you know, andthen ultimately I started
feeling progressively a lotbetter, and my health overall
improved, and all kinds ofbenefits came from it. But it
really was like I was sograsping for anything to sustain
me. I didn't have a lot in mylife at that time, too, in terms
of, like, social connection andthings like that. And so, yeah,
(23:11):
it was, it plugged a big hole,and it became a big part of the
story for me. So that that's onepiece of it, the other piece I
have to mention. And I don'tknow how much you and I have
ever talked about this before,exercise, diet, food has had a
massive impact on my entirelife, right? And there's a lot
of elements that go into it.
Part of that is being a womanand the connection of my
(23:33):
struggles with weight andacceptance and bullying that
took part for me in my highschool years, and a whole lots
of ways that my body and myobsession with my body took over
my life at a lot of differenttimes yet, to no avail. Yet, I
wasn't healthy yet, I didn'tfeel better. However, this thing
(23:53):
controlled me for a large aspectof my life as I have begun this
work over the last seven years,and worked a lot with other
women, there is a hugecorrelation to body image,
weight management and all ofthat, and alcohol use and drug
use. And there's, there's awhole element there. It is such
(24:13):
an important part of my journey,because it was also a part of me
coming into myself a little bitmore and not disassociating as
much as I have learned to do,because I have learned to ignore
my body for most of my life,like don't think about it, don't
look at it. Oh, you're hungry.
(24:34):
Too bad. Oh, you just ate toomuch. You have a stomach ache.
Too bad. I just learned to shutit off. And so now, all of a
sudden, I'm in this place whereI can actually start paying
attention to it. And there wassomething actually very
spiritual about that for me.
Yeah, and, and, and the biggestpiece that I can speak of, and
then I I'll stop after this. Butthe biggest thing is that
(24:55):
balance piece that you talkedabout. So one of my little side
journeys. Early in recovery, andI would recommend it for anyone
who kind of likes this kind ofstuff. I'm not trying to get
Woo. Woo on you. But there issomething here, and it has to do
with the Enneagram, which a lotof people might be familiar
with. But the Enneagram is ninedifferent subtypes of
personality, essentially, thatare based on, like, a core need
(25:16):
that drive that personalitytype, and people who lean
towards that, yes, it putspeople in buckets. It's not it's
not holistic all of thosethings. But within that, you
have these three categories,body, mind and heart types. And
yet, there are people who arejust typically more wired in
(25:36):
particular ways. I have likedthis because I identify myself
as a head type, little bit morein the anxiety category, the
worry category, I probably putyou in head type two, a little
bit more on the intellectualthere's a there's a five
category, which I feel likemaybe kind of encompasses you a
little bit. Not that I want toput you in too much of a box.
(25:59):
I'm more of a seven in the headtype, which leans more towards
even more anxiety. So I learnedin my recovery how much time I
had spent trying to think my wayout of everything my entire life
had been thinking from back tolike a little kid. I can
remember that that is how Ifunctioned, and that in that I
had ignored these other elementsof myself, and so heart type is
(26:23):
definitely where you're going tofind people who are just sort of
more naturally sociallyconnected and intend to get a
lot of energy out of that socialinteraction to the point that
they'll forego anything for it,that they're so driven by that,
that it sometimes can get theminto trouble because they don't
take care of their own needs,right? They give so much of
(26:47):
themselves that they don't takecare of themselves. And then
that has a downside too, right?
All of this has an upside and adownside, and then the other the
body type, right? Are people whoare kind of wired in their body.
They respond to anger like,Okay, quickly, right? Yes, there
is, and there's three types thatkind of fit within that. This
(27:09):
triad I found so helpful for menow that I know myself as a head
type, I recognize and understandthat getting in my body and
getting in my heart are notthings that naturally happen for
me, that there has to be anelement of effort for me to get
there. I know I'm going to spendplenty of time in my head every
day. Sure that part is noproblem. I don't know if I'm
(27:33):
going to spend time in my body,because, especially if I'm too
in my head, being in my bodyscares me, because then I'm
going to be thinking aboutthings I've been trying to avoid
thinking about. But I also know,like in my core, I have seen how
much like, if I'm balanced, andI create opportunities to be in
my body every single day, and Iget in a pattern of that, that
(27:56):
my overall outlook on life isjust better. And yeah, same
thing with heart. So heart is aninteresting one, because I can
think compassion all day long,and I can feel it too, but there
is an element of some of thedetachment I have from scary
emotions where I have to forcemyself to be present. This is
(28:20):
about the here and now, totally,yeah, this is about, like, I am
here, and I'm with my brotherand my sister in a room, and I
haven't seen them in a year, andthis, like, feels so good, and
I'm feeling the joy of thatconnection, and not just
thinking about the joy of thatconnection. And I'm taking a
moment to, like, acknowledge thephysical presence, or like, I
(28:41):
have to actually do it. I haveto, I have to say, like, folks,
stop for a minute, like, what'shappening, and then get myself
into my heart. This may soundsuper cheesy and crazy,
Craig Knighton (28:53):
makes sense to me that it worked for me. Nature
is one of the most naturalgateways to art, right? Because
if you just get outside and getinto nature, that presence,
becoming present with naturehappens very naturally. I've
been doing a lot more withplants and growing, and as soon
(29:15):
as I get into the garden, I'mimmediately in that place in
what it's like, this great hack,right? Because you don't have to
think your way into your body orinto your heart. It just happens
naturally by being outside,working on plants.
DeAnn Knighton (29:32):
And I have found, and I love it too, and I
have, actually, that's one of mylittle treasure things, where I
have looked back and gone my momand dad knew what they were
talking about in some way whenthey told me, just like, get out
and do stuff in the yard,because, you know, they valued
that, and they didn't value itfor the same reasons we're
talking about right now, butthey just knew that it helped
(29:53):
them feel better overall. Sure,they just had a knowing that it
was good for them. And I. Havefelt connected to them in that
practice, for sure. And theother thing I want to say with
nature is, I have to give mylittle spiel for pets. Pets are
a huge piece for this, for metoo, right? There is something
about this, like living beingthat's in my home that if I do
(30:15):
need to connect with, like lifeforce, I can feel my dog breathe
and I can just be like, Okay,there's a breath or or,
obviously kids help, oh, sure,and especially if you focus on
being present with them. But Ihave to make an effort to do
that, because otherwise I can belike, Oh yeah, just over here.
Craig Knighton (30:36):
So my happy place is a cat on my lap. Yeah.
And cats, when they reallysettle in and really stretch
out, they just like they justtotally let go. There is no
stress in them, in any way,shape or form, they're
completely happy. And it justsort of radiates into your body
(30:59):
when they do that. It's a greatthing.
DeAnn Knighton (31:01):
Yeah, that really is my little spirituality
hack right there.
Craig Knighton (31:06):
I love it. We'll have to do a whole episode on
it, yeah, let me make a quicktransition to sort of because I
think this is a greatintegrating conversation of
several things that we've talkedabout, and then where it takes
us. I think so much of why somepeople bend and other people
break has to do with this.
What's happening with your hereand now and stop circuit and
(31:30):
those things failing you in away that means you don't recover
or don't have the resiliencethat other people have. And so I
think that's a good topic todive into next to kind of focus
on the stop circuit and itsfunction and dysfunction, and
what are the chemicals involvedin managing all of how we feel
(31:51):
in our bodies and in our minds,and how that affects the
neurotransmission and and healthof our brain, right? And and
that includes things likeserotonin and oxytocin, the love
right? Chemical, right? The lovehormone. All of those things are
huge influencers on on how wefeel and our state of mind. And
(32:13):
I think are a big part of whathelp us just be calm and yes and
feel safe and be in our body andnot hurt and and be sated right,
be be satiated in a way thatallows us to just stop, to not
need to go anywhere or doanything or seek anything, to
(32:35):
try to feel better. Just I
DeAnn Knighton (32:38):
think that all like plays in really well, and
it seems like a great direction.
Craig Knighton (32:43):
So thank you.
Work on that soon. Thank you.
It's good to be back. Good totalk to you. Good to see you.
Bye.
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