From Chief to Rock Bottom: A Firefighter's Battle with Alcoholism and PTSD

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
For anything that's orange.
Well, these are all different.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
now we got to get relaxed.

Speaker 1 (00:02):
I ain't touching this shit baby, I'm looking for
anything that's orange.
I don't want to touch it.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
I told him I got to do you know what we're going to
do here in a second?
We're going to pray and cleansethis place, you fools.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You know what I like.
I like that you got that upthere now.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
My daughter, my niece , made the hardest time
remembering that.
For some reason I had a hardtime remembering that third step
prayer and I finally prayed onemorning.
I'm just like you know what?
God, I can't, Whatever.
Very next morning, verbatim Bam, bam, bam, bam bam.

(00:35):
Just released it, Surrender.
I just surrendered.
I said I can't do it anymore.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
I got lucky.
A group I was going to for myfirst, 90 and 90 every morning,
that's.
We'd start with that.
Yeah, and when I did my 120 and90 or whatever the heck I did,
all right hold on one thing, allright.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
What other podcasts do you listen to?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
you know, I did listen to.
I've listened to joe rogan.
There was a one by uh, I thinkhe's a ex-cop, maybe a first
responder, his name it was yeah,they're gonna tell you how do
you not remember?
Yeah, they tell you right awaywhat they are.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
How's the weather today?
Go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Things we all carry and I don't know what happened
to that guy.
We were talking about me goingto talk to him, because it was a
lot of PTSD and stuff, and thenhe disappeared.
He's back on Instagram now, butI don't know what happened.
I don't know what happened.
So, joe Rogan, theo Vaughn, andthen when I found these guys, I
pretty much.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
just how the fuck did you find this?

Speaker 1 (01:27):
I Googled.
I was out there driving themmore and I Googled sobriety and
recovery and sobriety had abunch and then when I hit
recovery, this one came up and Isaw the little symbol and I was
like unfiltered.
I said that ought to be good.
Good, you know that for me, Isaid which one was your?

Speaker 3 (01:42):
my daughter, with mckenna, was your first one.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Mckenna was the first one, and what a hell of a one
to start on I'm driving thelawnmower and I said, thank god
nobody can hear me or see me.
I'm bawling man, I'm justteared because it was just like
with my sons who were the sameage about, and so it tore me up.
And then I said, okay, I'mgonna listen to another one.
And I actually it was your,yeah, because you hadn't had her
on yet no.

(02:04):
I hadn't.
You'd had McKenna, but you hadnot had Miranda yet.
So that's when I startedbouncing back and I would go
back one and then I'd move up,and so I bounced all over the
place, but that one was rough.
Oh yeah, 1 o'clock.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Jim, you know a good meeting that starts on time on
time.
Yeah, let's go to the lordhelly.
Father, we thank you forbringing us together, father, we
thank you for james, father, wethank you for the flight that
he brought here, that it was asafe flight.
We, father, father, we ask thatyou sit with him, give him the
peace, knowing that he's gettingthis out of him.
Father, continue to work withhim, lay hands on him and help
him get through this with sanemind.

(02:45):
Father, we ask that you sitwith all of us.
We thank you for this timetogether and we pray in your
name.
Let's go to work.
I wonder why.

(03:10):
Hello, robert, whatever.
I wonder why.
Well, fuck, that's a hell of away to start the show.
Producer Mary.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Nice prayer though.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Producer Mary, she's not going to talk to us.
Hi, robert, what's?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
up buddy.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
You know who we got today, kind of excited.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
No, I don't.
Let me take a drink real quick.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Look at you.
So Jim, our boy from Denver,brought Rob and I a couple of
mugs, and I'm sure Mary will.
First I'm going to do this.
I got to start with this.
So if you listen to Sean andMary a while back, was it two
weeks ago now?
Yeah, about two weeks, twoweeks ago.
Unmute her mic, god damn it.

(03:51):
She said she wasn't going totalk.
So two weeks ago or three weeksago, whenever Mary and Sean was
on here, I happened to mentionthat what you need, huh, oh,
your drink that I happen tomention that.
You know, I really wantedsomebody to run my social media.
Sean the next day sent me ournew logo, right, and then I said

(04:11):
something now I just need asocial media.
Is Mary willing to do it?
And Sean said, well, she didn'treally want to say anything,
but yes, she does.
So, me and Mary, mary and I,mary and I, mary and I.
You, motherfucker, that's whatyou were making fun of me,
weren't you, you prick.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
No, well, you said you needed someone to run your
social media.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Our social media.
Couldn't you have corrected me?
No, it's all good.
No, it's not.
I really try hard, I do so.
Miss Mary has been running myour social media see, fucker,
our social media for the last uh, two weeks and she has lifted
our subscribers and ourlisteners to almost 100 already.

(04:53):
And she just getting going.
We try to go.
So what happened yesterday?
Miss mary sent me something,says hey, you need to go get
verified on instagram, which Idid, and now we can't go live.
So I don't know yet.
So we will continue to try that, because I wanted to go live
just to show everybody theseamazing mugs that our friend
from Denver brought us.
I'm going to let him bringhimself in first, because we

(05:15):
don't normally say names.
Introduce yourself.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Hey, buddy, I'm Jim.
I'm from Denver.
Welcome, brother.
Are you from Denver?
I'm born and raised in Denver.
I actually live in the housenext door to where I was born
and raised.
That's pretty cool.
I haven't moved far I'm closerthan this guy is.
I mean, I don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
That is pretty cool and you know I don't want to
give away too much.
Jim got here Friday and we wentto Maynard's together because I
spoke Friday night in Maynard,so I drove up, we drove up there
together, I picked him up, wehad a great meal that Miss Marla
that you guys have heard metalk about, miss Marla Cook and

(05:53):
I give her a big old hug and Iwouldn't let go of her until she
said that she was going to comeon the podcast.
I don't know if she did itunder duress because I was
squeezing her so tight, or thatshe finally decided to come on
to the podcast, but she's comingand then Sean's coming as well,
so they're going to do ittogether.
And we got SoCal Cat Catherineand I spoke to her and I got her

(06:13):
locked in to September 13th.
That we're going to record withher.
So I'm getting excited.
We got some great stuff coming.
I got some good, good stuffcoming.
But what we have today, boys, wehave today, boys, we have big
jim I wouldn't say greatnessboys and girls sorry, let me go
there.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
It's big, oh I like that.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
I I've you know what.
I've gotten some glimpses.
Miss mary called and got yourbio and, you know, talk to you a
little bit and she's giving mea little bit of some stuff.
And then you um, you know, I'vegotten to spend some time
together so I've gotten glimpsesof it, so I'm excited well,
good so I'm gonna turn you overand let you go.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
We'll see, uh um yeah , um, if you don't mind, before
I say anything, I always like tosay this, like when I speak at
a, because you know I bring upchildhood, bring up family,
bring up stuff on the job.
I want to.
I always like to throw thedisclaimer out that wasn't my
parents, wasn't my brothers andsisters, wasn't my friends
growing up, wasn't the firedepartment, the ptsd or ptsd.

(07:14):
It wasn't all that that made mean alcoholic.
I, I made that decision.
When I hit it, I said I'm gonnakeep going.
This is awesome, this is what Iwant, and I took myself there.
It wasn't anybody else and Ijust know.
Obviously I was affected bygrowing up and stuff, but I I
don't blame any of them for howhow far into your sobriety did
you come to that conclusion,though?
Right away.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
It was right away.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, I knew I was an alcoholic.
I would admit it to myself.
I knew I was, but I didn'tadmit it out loud because I was
afraid somebody would make mestop the realization that, at
the top of the 64 that you werethe problem and how you and the
way you reacted to everythingelse was the problem.
I can't say when that hit me,but I it was tough because the
explosion of when it hit methere was so many things I think

(07:59):
probably before my suicideattempt it hit me that I was the
problem.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Maybe that day so there's a little disclaimer to
the story to come.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
So yeah, they call that a preview.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and on this episode.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
So yeah, so let's go.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, let's see, I'm the youngest of 12.
We're Irish Catholic fromNorthern Denver.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Dude, they breed like rabbits.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah Well, mom and dad didn't have a TV, so that's
right.
And dad said he only wanted sixkids, so apparently it was the
bottom six.
So, the first six.
He didn't want.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
We got into that conversation last night.
Yeah so they discovered condomslater.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
You know I had seven brothers, four sisters, and by
the time I was born I had sixnieces and nephews.
So grew up in an Irish Catholicfamily.
My mom worked full-time takingcare of us and dad worked
full-time or another job, taking, you know, paying the bills and
whatnot.
And I think you know there wasalways drinking around the house

(08:59):
.
It was.
It was no big deal.
I mean, in Colorado you coulddrink if you were 18.
So all my older brothers werestill living there and they had
a case of beer here, a case ofbeer there.
So there was beer all the timeand I never had met either of my
grandfathers, but both myparents told me that they drank
quite a bit, you know.
They said oh, you know yourgrandpa drank too much because
they had both passed away by thetime I was born.

(09:21):
My parents were born back in the20s.
My dad fought in World War IIbut my dad was not.
He was not a heavy drinker,like.
He went to work, came home,went to sleep, that was it.
He just worked and worked andworked.
The only time I would see himdrink was holidays.
He loved his St Patrick's Day,he loved his Easter, he loved
Christmas and I had olderbrother-in-laws that were, you

(09:43):
know, they already had kids myage.
So I think I saw all those guys, serious men, and they worked
all the time.
But then on holidays, boom, itwas this lighthearted atmosphere
and I just thought you didn'trealize they were normal.
Yeah, my dad was.
I don't want to say he was agrumpy man, but he was serious
when I was young.
And then on holidays he wouldjust be this jovial, happy guy

(10:05):
and I guess I thought maybe it'sbecause he's drinking right.
But he didn't drink that much.
He only had, you know, drinkhere and there and he'd sing and
just let himself go.
So I think as I got older Istarted thinking that and then,
you know, I drank, who knows.
Everybody said you'd set yourmug down and I'd grab it and
take a swig of it.
Hated that shit, couldn't standthe taste of it whiskey or beer

(10:28):
, both really yeah I didn't likeeither of them.
And then we had this old guybehind us.
That was that's what I thoughtan alcoholic was.
So in our yard you could climbup the back fence and there was
an old guy behind us that woulddrink and stumble out of the
house and fall down sleep in hisyard, or his wife would kick
him out or whatever, and so Ithought that was an alcoholic.
To me that was an alcoholic.

(10:48):
The visual, the visualization.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah, it is, but it's that visualization of the
alcoholic right.
It's not that internalalcoholic.
It's what you saw.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
That was what I saw.
I had some uncles that werethat way on my mom's side and
they didn't come around.
I mean, we had big familyparties and they weren't there
because mom didn't really getalong with them because they
were alcoholics of that type.
So I never thought that I couldbe an alcoholic of that type
and so I just kept going.
And then I can rememberdistinctly the day that I

(11:21):
decided it was for me was so myparents had been married 40
years, on July 9th 1984.
So I was 13 years old, and theywere going to do a renewal of
vows and everything at mybrother's house.
He had a pretty good size house.
So I was over at my brother'sthe night before with his son,
who's about my age, and we werepalling around and my older

(11:44):
brother and his friend livedabout three blocks away, or were
staying about three blocks away, and they had a kegger.
They were having a high schoolparty excuse me with everybody,
and so we walked over there,went down to the party and I
walk in and, man, there's allthese gorgeous high school girls
and, you know, big high schoolguys and everybody, you were
getting ready to step intojunior high at this age.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, I'm 13.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, so not quite 14 yet.
And I remember well my nicknamewas Little Heart.
For one I was the smallest one.
My last name, and secondly, isbecause I was little.
I was really little compared tomost of them, so I walked in
Smaller than Rob.
Well, I was about in seventhgrade.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
I was about that size , and you grew an inch since
then.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, I've grown a whole inch and lost 10 pounds.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
You know what?
We didn't even say anythingabout that.
Hold that thought.
Cross your fingers, jim, we'llcome back to you.
Jim brought us some cups Roband I some cups because we
always say we don't have anyletters after our name.
So Jim brought us some mugsthat have mine, says Larry S PBD

(12:54):
on it.
We couldn't figure out what itmeant and then he told us pretty
big deal.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
So now we have letters after our names.
Now you have letters after yourname.
You can say you're no PhDs, noMIAs, no, nothing, but you are
PBDs.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
We are PBDs.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Nice Anyways you can uncross your fingers now.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
So you walk into the kegger, so I walk into the
kegger and I'm looking around,13 years old on top of the world
.
No, I was scared to death.
Okay, and then I went overmyself a beer and started just
realized, if I had the littlehandle, everybody come up.
Hey little heart, give me abeer.
Boom.
And so I was feelingeverybody's beer.

(13:31):
All of a sudden I becamepopular, I was cool and man.
I got lit that night and wenthome and was miserable.
So when we woke up the next dayI had to do a reading at this
mass in my brother's living room.
I'm sweating.
I got the sweats.
I'm feeling terrible.
As soon as I done, I wentoutside and threw up.
Well, I think my parents, ifthey didn't know, they thought
well, he's real nervous.
And one of my older siblingssays come here, let's go in the
basement.

(13:52):
He says drink a beer.
No, there ain't no way I'mdrinking another beer.
And he's like no, go ahead anddrink it.
See how you feel and all, Allof a sudden, I was like wow.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, boy, let's go.
Yeah, so I realized the cure.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
it made me cool I got drunk it made me cool and I
knew how to fix it.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Came on.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
I was off.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And I had all three ounces of alcohol, right, right.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Boom, boom, boom.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
I was off and running , let's go.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
And I kind of just decided there that I was good,
and you know I, I was no athleteNone of us really were, but I
was deaf.
My brother, just older than me,was an athlete and I was not.
So I decided, well, I can keepup with them this way.
So I just started drinking, youknow, and it was.
It was easy to steal a beer.
I mean, you had three or fourbrothers living at your house

(14:37):
that could drink.
They always would come on witha case of beer, throw it in the
fridge.
So if you went in there andstole a six pack or a 12 pack,
nobody knew They'd be like oh,he drank it.
Well, he drank it, he drank it.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Well, there was 12 of you to argue with.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, and then when dad had a big party, I mean,
everybody would show up with acase or two of beer, so it was
easy to just sneak them and goaway.
And so I started drinking and Idrank.
I started drinking pretty goodand like I good and like I
thought of this story the otherday, my sister was pregnant and
she had moved back in with ustemporarily and this is 19 my
nephew will be 40 here next weekso she was pregnant with him.

(15:12):
So I was again.
I was 14 years old and Iremember she'll tell you the
story.
we came home drunk aftersomething and we're watching the
baby move in her stomach and Iwas you know, I'm drunk like, oh
my gosh, I can see a foot, butat the time we didn't think
anything of it.
You know, and I'm 14 years old,hammered watching this baby
roll around.
So cool shit.

(15:32):
Yeah, and I think it was momand dad were over.
I don't blame them at all, butthey were overwhelmed.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
I mean it's hard to raise 12, and how old were they
when you were 14, though?
Um so let's see, they had their40th wedding anniversary with
my dad, so my dad would have,were they when you were 14,
though?

Speaker 1 (15:44):
um?

Speaker 2 (15:44):
so let's see, they had their 40th wedding
anniversary with my dad so mydad would have been 63 when I
was 14.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Okay, mom would have been 61 they were sick of you
kids by yeah they probably were,and they were.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
You know, my older siblings always tell a story.
I think I told you this thatwhen they would come home after
curfew, the top six, the ones hedidn't- want when they'd come,
when they'd come home aftercurfew or whatever, dad would be
sitting they called it hisorange pajamas and he'd be
sitting at the end of the tableready to rip their ass shoot.
By the time I came around, allI had to do was sneak in the
door and say I'm home.

(16:15):
Boom, and he was off.
He didn't I don't give a shit Idon't know if he had orange
pajamas or not.
I think he was just soexhausted.
He was catching up from 50years of no sleep so it made it
a little easier for me to getaway with shit and I got
straight A's in school all thetime, from first grade and
through high school I never gotanything but A's, so it was kind

(16:36):
of like that was my out.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
It gave you that latitude, it did.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
So when I got to high school, I already started
drinking and I was.
School was easy.
I don't want to sound like I'mbragging, but it was easy.
I don't know why I didn'tstruggle with it this came easy
so I never had to study uh thenight before you couldn't run,
so you had to do your homework.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Yeah, I was no athlete so I had to do.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
no, I didn't do any homework, I just would look at
my notes and that was it, andthen I'd pass the test.
So when I got in high schooland we had football games and
volleyball, I was at every oneof them.
Well, once I discovereddrinking like I cut a hole in my
letter jacket so I could slidebeers around my waist and walk
in a game with the six packaround my waist.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
Good luck trying to do that now.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
You got to go through metal detectors now, yeah, it's
shit we got away with in highschool.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
It helped that I was 105 pounds and everything hung
off me like a, like a curtainanyway, so nobody could tell I
was sneaking beers in.
But uh, you know, I, like Isaid, I took off junior high I
started drinking.
I would say by college or byhigh school I was going, I was
trying to go all state.
You know all state.
Yeah, I was trying to go allstate.
You know, yeah, I was trying togo all state and drinking and
drinking, um, and I I don't knowif I told you this the other

(17:51):
day.
So when I got divorced from myex, we were packing up my stuff
and she pulled out my junioryear yearbook and I'd never
really went back and read it andshe read all the signatures in
there and there was about 20 ofthem and in in there there was
two or three of them that said,hey, this summer cut back, or
we're gonna put you on a nodrinking clause this summer,
things like that and then therest of them were like I can't

(18:12):
wait to party with you again.
You throw the best parties andto me that didn't.
It didn't register until now.
Looking at it like, wow, Ialready had a problem right, my
junior, you had peoplerecognizing it.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah, was only women, though, so it didn't matter.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
They don't matter.
Yeah, it doesn't matter if it'snot your I'll get some hate
mail for that one.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Your buddies.
It's not your buddies who weredrunk with you.
That's funny.
So then I went away to collegeand instead of going all state,
I went all pro.
School was not easy to me.
I had a full academic ride to auniversity of Colorado, ah okay
, and I almost drank that away.

(18:50):
In the first semester.
I got put on academic probationbecause I think I had like a
1.6 was my GPA, so much for yourA's.
Yeah, so much for A's.
They disappeared real quicklybecause I discovered, you know,
that booze and everything Iloved was right there.
Booze and women, frat party theywere everywhere and so I was
not part of a frat, but youwould think I was Wow, and I
kept finding people like in highschool I'd find people that
drank like me.
In college I found guys thatdrank like me.

(19:12):
I tried to talk to those guystoday and they've actually quit
drinking and gone on and beensuccessful, believe it or not.
Yeah it, they retired.
Yeah, they retired early.
Yeah, so I did about two yearsof college and just it wasn't
for me.
Anyway, I realized I don't knowADHD.
I got to have somethingdifferent and that's why I

(19:33):
gravitated towards the firedepartment, because my grandpa
was a firefighter, my dad was afirefighter.
At that time, three of mybrothers were on the Denver Fire
Department.
Wow, and so, and my brotherDave my brother Dave was testing
for it.
So we got on together, startedtesting and I just decided I
couldn't sit in four walls, Ineeded to do something different

(19:54):
.
So we started working to get onthe fire department and I got
hired when I was 21.
So I was really young.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
I think the youngest guy in the class.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Fresh out of the academy, then.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, in the academy.
I think the youngest guy in theclass Fresh out of the academy
then yeah, like in the academy Iwas.
I think there was one guyyounger than me, maybe two, so I
was pretty young.
But you know, and no insult tothe job or the people that I
worked with, but in the ninetiesit was a lot more lax a days.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
For sure, and you know.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
So we worked 24 hours and we're off 48.
So if I was all state now Icould go all American because I
had 48 hours off.
We'd get off in the morning,call it choir practice, we'd go
straight from the firehouse to abar and that was it and we'd be
gone.
You know, I'd go for the next48 hours.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
And at that point you weren't married.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
No, I wasn't married at that time my brother and I
lived together, married at thattime um my brother and I lived
together.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
We had a kegerator in the house and we actually got
kegerator.
That's a do your date yourselfright.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Oh yeah, that's awesome, there was a guy that
went around cleaning all thetaps for all the bars that
worked for coors.
Somehow we befriended him andhe put us on his route because
we had a kegerator.
He'd come by every friday,clean our pipes and whatnot and
then sit and have beers with usso you just hold on.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
I'm gonna interrupt you just for a minute.
Cross your fingers for a minute.
Uh, you weren't too far fromthe cores, no, where it was
actually made from no, where I'mgolden colorado right, yeah
golden, I can ride a bike there.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
It's seven miles, eight miles, wow it's not very.
You had the fresh cores oh, thebest banquet the best, and it
was there was back then.
There was banquet and light.
Yeah, but I remember the oldones where my brothers would
peel the tab Right and you putit in the beer Remember those,
yeah, and they'd swish around inthere.
So, yeah, we drank a lot, wehad a good party going.

(21:37):
My brother and I were on thefire department, were you know?
We were all in that 20 to 25range and we had money, we had a
job.
So it was, you know, honestlyfor being guys that age it was
kind of expected.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
But no problems, I mean, no, yeah, nobody got.
Almost dangerous though it wasyeah nobody got.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
None of us had experienced any of the yets and
so it was dangerous and I, Ijust kept going and as a group
of guys would grow up, getmarried, go off with their kids,
I'd just find a new group, I'djust go on.
I said this yesterday in ameeting.
Like it was easy as I got older, on the fire department they
were always hiring young pups,so you always had a fresh group

(22:17):
of 24, 25-year-old kids comingon that I could revert back to
and start hanging out with.
So, yeah, on the firedepartment I could always find
somebody to drink with.
And then, you know, I gotmarried.
I met my first wife, marla, andwe got married in 95.
So I'd only been on about fouryears and I actually was believe

(22:38):
it or not, I was pretty decentto begin with.
I was a good, I was a goodhusband to her and I tried to
take care of things and we gotalong great.
And she, she liked to partywith me when we were dating.
But, like normal people do, shegot married and wanted to
settle down and and mellow outand I didn't.
I just insisted in my mind well, I got married at 24.
I, I missed out on my 20s eventhough I was you didn't, I

(22:59):
didn't.
I was drinking and partying morethan anybody out there.
And then we started having kids.
We had two boys, 98 and 99.
They were born there 15 monthsapart, so they were real close
together.
And again, I didn't settle down.
I remember I don't know how oldthey were, two or three, and I
went out with the guys we wereunion meeting, you know hey,

(23:20):
honey, we got to go to a unionmeeting.
All that meant is we're goingto the bar.
You know we went to a meeting.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Did she ever pick up on that?

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Oh, she knew.
Oh, okay, well, we would go toa meeting.
I would pregame for five or sixbeers, then go to the meeting
for 45 minutes and we'd gostraight to the bar.
And one night I don't know whathappened, obviously, but my
buddies carried me in the houseat about 3 30 and set me on the
edge of the bed and she's likeoh you, son of a bitch, you know

(23:50):
, and they, they haul ass out ofthe house because they didn't
want to get the bastard by her.
She was a feisty little thingand I went to say something.
She gave me one of those likeright to the middle of the
forehead just lay down, and Ijust fell back on the floor and
slept.
So she got up in the morning,went to work and I was so hung
over and I didn't think of thisuntil recently I had to call my

(24:11):
brother to come over and watchmy boys because I could not,
couldn't function I couldn'tfunction, couldn't get off the
floor.
But I didn't see that as aproblem.
I just saw it as I just dranktoo much last night right you
know.
So I did all those dumb thingsand we were married in 95,
separated a couple times whenI'd go out partying.

(24:31):
I was not good, I was not agood husband, I should not have
been married to a great womanand cheated on her like I did.
And she caught me a coupletimes and you know, we'd split
and I'd decide to make adifference and change.
And one time she caught me andI said that's it, I'm giving up
drinking.
But it was kind of like well,I'm giving it up till I study
for this captain's exam or I'mgiving it up till this.

(24:52):
It wasn't really that I wantedto quit, Right, I didn't want to
.
And so I had a sponsor.
We went to a couple of meetingsand he went out.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
So as soon as he went out oh, hold on a second.
So you did go into AA early on.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
This was 2000, 2005.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Okay so.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
I went in, and this is as much.
As I went in, I got a sponsor.
We went to three meetings orsomething like that.
You know it was smoke washanging low, everybody's cussing
you out, I'm making coffee andmy sponsor went back out.
So as soon as he went back outI started telling my wife I'm
going to a meeting, but therewas a liquor store in a bar
within a few hundred yards ofthat, so I would just you know I

(25:33):
could drink for an hour and ahalf.
She thought I was at a meetingand I wouldn't come home too
tuned up, but enough that youknow.
It felt good to me, but shedidn't really know it and I
tried my best to stay.
I would make it three months,or I'd make it two months here
and there, and then in 2008, Ijust gave up, said I'm going
back to it, and I was off and Ijust kept going, and then Marla

(26:01):
and I got divorced.
In 2012 is when we got divorced, and that was a bad year for me
.
In 2012,.
In in may, my sister died ofcancer and then in january 2013,
my mom died.
Now I was around my mom cancertoo, or?
no, she was.
I mean, she was 89, she hadparkinson's and some other
things, but I was around her.
I I wasn't around my sister andI, but I just, you know, I'm an

(26:24):
, I'm an alcoholic, so I wasselfish well, hey do you guys
realize?
I'm going through a divorce?
I, oh boy, what about me?

Speaker 3 (26:29):
yeah, poor me why?

Speaker 1 (26:30):
is nobody poor me.
Yeah, another drink Iunderstand my sister's sick and
got cancer, but I'm goingthrough a divorce.
You know where's, where's thepoor me and I'm not getting it.
So I just kept drinking.
And then, um, when I gotdivorced from her, I moved into
an apartment and I don't evenknow if you could call it all or
all universe the way I wasdrinking, like it was out of
control, all day, every day.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
But you were making it to work the office okay and
so you know they were shorterdays, so I was off by three
o'clock in the afternoon.
It was nothing for me.
Five days a week, for that.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Four days a week yeah , okay, it was nothing for me to
drink from three in theafternoon until midnight and
then I was able to sleep forseven, eight hours, or whatever
and go back to work, go back towork and then weekends.
I got a three-day weekend everyweekend, so it was guaranteed
three days and then perfect.
That's good to say that's gooddrinking schedule I had a great
drinks and even in the firehouseyou work 24, you're off 48, and

(27:30):
then every three weeks you getfive days.
So boom, I'd have.
I'd start on that first day.
So I was drunk for five days.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
I picked the wrong fucking profession all of us did
.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Hey, I had a lot of buddies that were firefighters
and they this it sounds aboutthe same yeah, no, yeah it was.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
It was definitely a a frat boys kind of attitude when
I was really young.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
That's what you were saying the other day, they were
coming in the front doors, theywere going out the back door
that was.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Uh, there was only at the time that now there was
five of us that werefirefighters and plus my
brother-in-law was a firefighter.
My dad, my grandpa had retiredand they were gone.
My other brother we alwaysteased him because he was a cop,
because he just couldn't, hecouldn't pass the fireman test,
you know but there you go, yeah,those two professions well,

(28:18):
we're irish, what else do we do?
we had no idea what else youcould do.
We didn't know you couldactually work for a living.
My dad did.
He had like three or four jobs.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
What did he do as a second job?
Just curious oh for a while.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Well, he delivered.
I wasn't around for this, buthe delivered for liquor stores
Okay, he delivered booze.
He worked at a mortuary, oh wowOkay, Delivering other stuff, I
guess, delivering people heworked.
Him and my brother-in-law had abusiness where they sold rock
and concrete and landscape stuffand he worked for him all the
time.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Just a hustler, then.
Yeah, anything he can do, justa hustler, right?
Well, hell, he had a B-12 ofyou.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, I mean he was a tough old bird man.
He'd been through that's thatage.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, world War II, I remember one.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
He backs out of the driveway and he's got his hand
wrapped in this towel.
So, hey, go play at theneighbors, I'll be back in an
hour or so.
I said where are you going?
I gotta go to the hospital.
Well, he cut his three fingersoff with the hedge clipper and
so he's.
He just wraps him in a toweland drives himself to the
hospital to sew his fingers backon.
That's just that, that.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
That generation right yeah it's just, it's insane,
the shit.
My grandpa, down fishing downin the bottom of a big old
Canyon broke his wrist andinstead of going he fell, he
just popped it back into placeand just kept fishing for the
rest of the day Till as long asI he was alive.
His, his whole wrist was justcocked sideways, Never went and

(29:36):
got a settled.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
They didn't no no, mom didn't take us to the
hospital for much.
I mean she'd be like, yeah, Ibrought up some dirt on it.
They couldn't afford to takeyou to a fucking hospital.
Hell, no, so you know it was,it was a good time and the fire
department was good.
But when marla and I gotdivorced, I just I took it to
another level and and thought itwas fine and and I didn't

(30:00):
realize that all the people Iwas really hanging with were
kind of disappearing and.
And I just kept going, cause Ifound new people.
I called myself the chameleon,cause I could fit in anywhere.
What I didn't realize is Icould pick the degenerates to
hang out, so I always had thegood people.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
That's why we're friends, right.
No, you're damn rightOutstanding.
Jim that was a good one.
Let me Mark that one out calledme a degenerate.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Okay, yeah, you win well, it didn't hurt your
feeling no, that you can't.
Still haven't found the onethat I got no, I've been trying
for a couple days now.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I haven't found it either, but I did you know, you
know, I know, you know the onewords that you could say prick
oh yeah, okay, yeah yeah, okay,so you're single so i'm'm single
05, 08.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, I was single from 12.
I got single in 2012.
And I just went partying,partying, partying.
And my mom had passed away, mysister passed away.
We were around my dad.
I moved back into theneighborhood so I could be
closer to my dad because he wasgetting older and you know, we
had a lot of siblings to helptake care of him.

(31:03):
But he wanted to stay at homeand he did really good.
He stayed at home till hepassed away.
Finally, in 2016, at 92.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
But he lived at home the whole time.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
He really wasn't sick .
He'd go out to dinner with usand I lived real close to him
but I was still single and Iremember saying to him one time
the way I'm living, I feelterrible because mom's watching
this and he says, no, she's notson, he goes, she's in heaven.
And if she saw what the wayyou're behaving that wouldn't be
heaven to her.
Wow, she can't see what you'redoing, Right, Because I knew it

(31:35):
was getting bad, but I stillcouldn't put two and two
together.
I had to hurt it.
Actually it should have.
It should have hurt, but it, itactually it should have.
It should have hurt, but itdidn't.
It made me feel good, like, oh,now I got to get out of jail
free.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Mom can't see me, wow , okay, I took it the other way
because I was a bad.
I was a bad alcoholic Justifyrationalizing.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
There you go, yeah.
So instead of taking it that Ishould clean up my living, if I
cause, I was embarrassed at whatshe was seeing I took it the
other way.
So my dad passed away in 16 andwas selling his house and the
house next door was for sale anda gal moved in there and I got
to meet her.
This ended up being my secondwife.

(32:15):
So we got married and I livedin the neighborhood.
We sold my dad's house, welived in her house, remodeled my
house, boom, boom.
We're all over the place but,we're never out of the
neighborhood, right?
So again, she was younger thanme.
I was, this was 40.
Let's see, we got married in 19.
So I was almost 49 and she was15 years younger than me, so she

(32:39):
was 34.
Well, when we met, she was 30years old and she's partying and
going out with her friends, soI blended right in.
You know like, ah, this guystill hangs with us you know,
this old prick's hanging around,yeah again.
This old prick is still drinking.
Well, turns out, she fuckinggrew up too.
I don't know where all thesepeople growing up, damn it I

(32:59):
know maturity's a motherfuckeryeah, so she wanted to have a
job and and grow, and I justkept going.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Was there any kids involved in that one?
No, In that one we did not havekids Me and my ex did not have
kids.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Just I had the two boys, matthew and Joshua, with
Marla.
Okay, and I had already said nomore kids and I did tell her
early on probably our seconddate, like, hey, I will never
have another kid, I'm donehaving kids.
And I think a lot of that was.
I knew how tired my dad was,gotcha, and he wasn't doing half
the immoral crap I was doing,right, and he was still

(33:31):
exhausted so I wasn't going tohave kids Right.
So we got married and she wasan active person, I mean, she
loved skiing and hiking and sheworked her ass off, so she
didn't really have time forchildren anyway, even if she
wanted them.
So we stayed married.
We got married in 19.
And I was drinking pretty heavyand kept drinking pretty heavy

(33:51):
and found a new group of peoplethat wanted to party just as
much as me New group ofdegenerates.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Degenerates, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
And started hanging with them and she I would say
about halfway through ourmarriage she realized that I
wasn't turning it off, I wasn'tbacking down at all, and she
wasn't, and she was giving me alittle grief, but just like, hey
, you, you should watch whatyou're doing.
You need to cut back.
And instead of it making merealize that we should bond,

(34:20):
right, I pulled the other way.
Like you can't tell me what thehell to do, I'll do what I was
drinking when I met you.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
I'll continue to drink, god damn it.
I can't tell you how many timesI said that Like this you knew
who you married.
This is who you married, lady.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, you made the choice.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Right.
So, what does Rob call thatRational?

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Rational.
I told my ex.
I said this is the way I'mgoing to be.
Well, you need to quit.
Well, I'll quit when I'm dead.
And I, I fought her on it allthe time and um, life just got
out of control for me.
I'd started getting really,really bad and now I was in the
firehouse.
So I was working a day, andearlier in my career I would
never call in sick.

(34:59):
I mean, you would have had tocut my leg off to get me sick.
But now, if I woke up and had alittle brown bottle flu, I was
calling in sick because I wasn'tgoing to go there like that.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
Lowered your bar.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
And I also told myself you know how could I be
an alcoholic?
I'm sobering up every third day.
Right, you know, alcoholicscan't quit drinking.
I was sober every third day, sothere's no way Say it.
Just if every third day.
So there's no way justify right?
Yeah, I can tell by the way hewas looking.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
You could just keep checking that.
It just means we're lying toourselves right, that's all it
means once you start doing thatin sobriety or not in sobriety
doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
You're lying to yourself and you're getting
ready to lie to other people andI knew I would admit I was an
alcoholic, I'd make a joke outof it, say, hey, the first
step's admitting it.
I know I'm an alcoholic, youknow.
And then I'd move on then fuckyou.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much I'm an alcoholic.
I was the same way my wifewould say you know you're not.
Yeah, I know I'm an alcoholicand I'd walk outside and get
another beer and I call myself afunctioning alcoholic.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
I don't know what.
What did I tell you?

Speaker 3 (35:58):
yesterday whatever that means yeah well, you know
what we've got into this.
Conversations pretty deep.
During my alcoholism I wasrunning a pretty big company
flawlessly.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Even when I got sober , I knew that I'd ran it
flawlessly.
So when I say high-functioningalcoholic, I was an extremely
high-functioning alcoholic.
Now, come around 8 o'clock atnight, I probably couldn't have
done that.
Come around eight o'clock atnight, I probably couldn't have
done that, but I maintained alevel of blood, you know, of
alcohol in my system all daylong until he was right one more

(36:34):
and all right non-stop untilfrom about six o'clock until 8
30, because then I was trying toput myself to sleep yeah right.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
And then you'd wake up at two in the morning
thinking, fuck, I should withwhat I drank.
I should have been asleep allnight, yeah, but you're awake
and I and drink some more to putme back to sleep.
I wouldn't do that.
I would have to stay awakebecause no I would, I would.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
That's why I kept my whiskey outside.
I'd go out there and do a jobyeah, I, I, because I want
enough to put me back to sleepuntil 5 30, because that's when
I'd the liquor store had opened.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'd do that on the way, so anyways mine was a
little different just because Iwouldn't drink that third day
right when I went to work andand maybe that's why the high
functioning, because I never wasmissing work and none of the
yets hadn't got a dui I had losta marriage but I didn't
consider that my fault.
That obviously had to bemarla's fault obviously it was

(37:25):
not my fault.
It had to be she was such agreat woman and but I'm blaming
everything on her.
Well, she was mean.
She wanted me to quit drinking.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
She wanted me to quit doing this how I couldn't stay
married to her there's no way,you know, I'm just, I'm
justified in doing all this shit.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, because I'm keeping a job and you're the
crazy one yeah, and I was a.
I mean when my boys were little.
I was good, I coached them.
I was the athletic director attheir school.
I was involved.
We'd have games every Saturdayfor basketball.
I'd have a six-pack of beer inthe back of the car for when it
was over that I could celebratethe victory on my way home or

(37:58):
the loss, or the loss.
Drown it out.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Do whatever.
I did drown it out, do whateverI did, but I I was actually
there are.
There are.
There are no triggers, no it'san inside job.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
No, I didn't say it was triggered.
I know, you know, yeah, I uh.
I just had reasons that Ijustified everything right and
um, you know, we'd lose somebodyin the family, I'd get hammered
drunk.
Somebody passed away.
My nephew passed away ofaddiction.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
He passed away of uh and jim would celebrate it with
yeah more alcohol he did.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
He passed away of addiction, he passed away of
heroin and Jim would celebrateit with yeah, more alcohol.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
He did.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
He passed away from a heroin addiction and I kept
thinking what?
You know, he just got a bad.
You know he got a bad load.
He hadn't been doing it thatlong, but he did it.
He got hooked on opioids andwhen he passed away I thought,
gosh, he really had a probleminstead of seeing that I had a
problem.
You know it was terriblebecause it was, I mean, you know
, with 140 irish catholics,there's a lot of us do some

(38:51):
drinking in there oh yeah buddythere's a lot.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
You could keep a liquor store and yeah, in
business yeah, we could and uh,so I blamed everything else.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
You know that when I lost him, I blamed something
else so how long did number twolast?

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Your marriage at number two.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
So number two we got married in 19.
And then, like I said, Istarted pulling away and doing
all the things.
So this is when the downfallcomes is in October of 23.
And the only reason I use thisI don't, I don't blame my
brother Mark.
Brother mark passed away and soI had I'd fallen out of favor,

(39:26):
I should say with a lot of mysiblings, and I think most of it
was my behavior.
You know the way I was behaving.
But there also was some innerfamily conflict, which you
always get with in-laws andwhatnot.
So I had fallen away with twoof the guys, or a couple of the
guys.
I was super close you guys had acommunity of a family, though
you're so big we were so biglike people picked that's what

(39:48):
I'm saying you walk in a grocerystore and people are like, oh,
you're a heart, yeah, yeah, Imean it's not like.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
It's like a small town.
The, the people across townsaid something you didn't like,
so you got pissed off at them.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
That was your family, right, you had that many people
and extended right there's somany people yeah yeah, like my
wedding when I got married to uhx, to number two, we could only
have I mean, we only had roomfor 95 people.
If I would have invited all myfamily, just down to nieces and
nephews, I was at 130, so youknow, a lot of people got

(40:20):
excluded and things got rubbedthe wrong way.
So we were already kind of onthe outs.
But I had lost favor with acouple of brothers too and that
really hurt me emotionally yeah.
And then my brother, mark, thatI was still close with, died in
2013.
I mean 2023, 2023, october 23.

(40:40):
And my sister-in-law called me.
I was on vacation with my sonand I'll never forget that phone
call.
I saw the phone ring at like1030 at night and I said this is
not going to be a good call.
I don't know what this is, butI was already drinking.
Of course I'm on vacation.
So I already got a whiskey inhand and she said he's gone.
And I said what do you meanhe's gone?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Where'd he go and my sister-in-law was crying.
She said, no, jim.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Mark's gone.
How old was Mark at the time hewas?

Speaker 2 (41:07):
60.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
And he didn't know he had heart problems and he just
had a massive coronary.
And I just fell and it took meto the ground, like he was,
because I was still close to him, and it took me out and I felt
like I'd lost not only him, butI'd lost a lot of my siblings

(41:28):
because I was so close to him,and not the other ones.
So I, like I said I don't wantto use that as an excuse, but
man, I went batshit crazy.
I don't and I'll be honest withyou.
I don't remember october untilmarch, not much of it.
Now I was going to work and Ihad nine companies underneath me
, 36 people under me every day,and on fire I'd have 50 people.

(41:50):
I would be running.
I had been promoted toassistant chief and I did a damn
good job.
I'm not bragging, but I wasgood.
I was good at what I did.
So I felt I was functioning.
That's where my rationalizationcame.
Well, I go to work and I don'tnobody, I don't get people hurt,
I protect people.
I do these things and I didn'trealize how much the job was

(42:12):
affecting me as well, how muchall the crap I'd seen, which
I'll get into.
So in March, start of March I Igot.
I went to a guy's retirementparty and just got so drunk it
started.
We were going to go have lunch.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
This is March of 24.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
This is March of 24.
We're going to go have lunchand lunch started at 9am and I
don't remember much of the day.
And when I came home, atwhatever time I came home, my
wife knew, my ex knew I hadstopped at a girl's house that I
used to go to high school withand she had sent me a text
saying, hey, what are you doingat so-and-so's house?

(42:52):
And I didn't, I didn't evenknow it, you know.
I didn't know she'd sent menever responded to I never
responded, never anything.
Then I came home and she calledme out on it and she had my
phone and I'm lying my waythrough it.
I didn't want her to know whereI was.
Um, you know it was in an.
It wasn't.
Uh, it was an affair of sorts.
You know, it was an affair ofemotional and talking.

(43:13):
We weren't, we didn't haveanything physical going, but I
always, I always sought peoplethat would give me.
Was she drinking with you?
oh yeah, she was drinking withme and that was why, because I
could go there and she'd drinkas much as I drank and I always
I wanted anybody in it and I wasnot just talking to her, I was
talking to a lot of womenbecause I wanted to feel better

(43:33):
about me.
Like my ex didn't like the wayI was behaving.
So these other ones, they putup with my bullshit and I could
tell them whatever lie rightabout my ex, like hey, my ex
said this, oh, I'd never tellyou that, or whatever you know,
made me feel like I wasn't theproblem.
So she caught me there and wewere talking about separating
and I went to the firehouse thatnext day and I'm working and

(43:56):
I'm driving to station 18.
And I hear the officer.
I'm about two blocks away.
The officer comes over the radioand this guy never panics and
he's like send me an ambulance,send me police.
And they said what's going on?
And he said meet me on channelfour.
So as he clicked over, I hadalready turned the lights on.
I was going hot, I knewsomething was going wrong.
And he says we just had a.

(44:17):
We just had a self-inflictedgunshot wound at the firehouse.
Well, I'm thinking firefighterright away.
And I get there.
They were up in the trainingtower and they had watched this
guy pull up in front of thefirehouse and shoot himself on
the front apron.
Oh damn.
So as I rolled up, they weren'teven down the stairs yet and
here's this guy laying here,dying.
You know, and I'll, I canremember the look on his face, I

(44:37):
can remember exactly what helooks like.
But he's laying there and he'san older guy and I'm watching
him and just watching him die.
There's nothing, nothing Icould do, and we got the gun out
of his hand and I'm juststaring at him.
Well, as time goes on, wepulled the note from around his
chest and he had been sick.
He was an older guy living inan apartment by himself.
He didn't want to die in thatapartment alone and have nobody

(44:59):
find him.
So, that's why he went to thefirehouse and did it
Understandably.
But I remember looking at himthinking that's going to be me
because I just chased my nextwife away.
I'm going to be an old guy allalone in my apartment and and
that's how I'm going to die.
And I started thinking suicidalthoughts right then.
Wow, um, and I knew it was astruggle because I was crying

(45:20):
for every every day off I wascrying.
I couldn't go back to thatfirehouse.
I went back there twice and assoon as I in I'd have to sit in
my car because I was crying,picturing where that guy had
died over there.
So I called for help from ourmental health counseling.
We didn't get a lot of support,I'll be honest.
The city gave us no support.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Yeah, you mentioned that yesterday.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
They didn't say hey, let's put you guys out of
service.
Let, hey, let's put you guysout of service.
Let's do this.
I said you guys are out ofservice.
We're getting some counselorsin here and I brought a man, but
I didn't feel our departmentdid anything.
And so we're in this meetingand we're doing a debriefing and
, um, the guys are talking, wegot this therapist there and the
guys are breaking down.
You know that because we've allseen a hundred suicides, but

(46:04):
they don't come to our household on a second and I'm sorry
you, you've seen that manysuicides like literally watched
them.
No, no, no no, I mean, oh, youcome on these guys actually
watched it.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
They actually watched , okay, they watched it, but
we've all been on.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
I should say correct, you've been on the call a
hundred suicides, but this onecame to our house right, this
was different right, and so allthe guys are talking and they're
breaking down lonely, he justwas sick sad, lonely god.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
That just breaks my freaking heart yeah, damn it.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
And the guys are all talking to this therapist and
they're crying and I wanted to.
So bad, I hurt, so bad.
But I I was like I'm the chiefif I break down.
This guy's got two years on thejob.
What's he gonna think?

Speaker 2 (46:46):
I gotta keep, I to keep.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
I got to stay strong.
And I tried and tried, but Ireached out to the counselor
afterwards.
I says I got to come talk toyou.
I got to come and in themeantime I'd gone to lunch with
my kid one day and thought aboutramming into a center post of a
bridge.
I wanted to die.
Yeah, I knew that if I wasdriving and I just took my seat
belt off and center punched abridge at 90, I'd be dead and I

(47:09):
could have beer in the car.
People would be like, oh, hewas just drinking and driving.
We understand that right,because I didn't want anybody to
know I was thinking of suicide.
So fast forward about threeweeks.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah oh yeah, oh yeah , you'll get to that episode.
It's been in a couple he's jimhas listened to all 58 episodes.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
I've listened to all 58.
It's been in a couple.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
He's jim has listened to all 58 episodes I've
listened to all 58 hard toremember everything.
But yeah, we I mean we've talkedabout a lot of this past few
days so about three weeks laterI go to the firehouse and I just
been to see the counselor thenight day before and I fell
apart.
I mean it was felt like I threwup.
But I threw up all over myself.
Everything I told her was allover me.

(47:46):
I just felt sick.
And so I go to work and in themorning I don't know why, but it
runs through my head and I senda text, an inappropriate text,
to some gal I was talking to andI didn't know that the night I
had passed out drunk.
My wife had taken my phone andlinked it to her computer so she
could see everything I wastexting and saying and I was.

(48:08):
It was just damn it.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well it's on me stupid phones well, it's on me.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
You know, if I wasn't stupid ass, it never happened.
So so she calls me and she'sdistraught and I can hear it in
her voice and I know something'sgoing on.
So I go home and I see her andshe's as white as those blinds
and her face is just crushed.
And I never thought it would.

(48:32):
I didn't think it would breakher.
I thought she was too tough andit broke her.
And so I went back to thefirehouse and I called out sick
and I was getting ready to leaveand one of the guys followed me
out and he's like what's wrong?
And I said it's bad?
And he said man, don't go,don't go, you're going to do
something.
I says I'm going to, I'm goingto, I got to end this.

(48:52):
I can't be like this.
Well, it dawned on me that I had, I always carried a gun in my
truck around the city of Denverat the time when I went to work
or whatever.
But I, I knew I had it and Isaid, hey, take this gun out of
my backseat, cause I, I wasgoing to kill myself.
I knew it and I thought aboutdoing it right there before he

(49:14):
came out.
And then I I thought well, if Igive him the gun I'll be okay,
right?
So by the time I got home nowfor the shift, she's packing her
bags and she's just crying,just broken.
And I said I'm out.
And I went outside and all myhandguns were gone out of the
house.
I noticed every drawer where Ihad a handgun was missing.

(49:36):
But as I walked in the garagemy AR-15 was sitting there in a
case.
So I threw it in my truck andclosed the garage door and as I
started backing away, my brothersomebody from the firehouse had
called my brother, my olderbrother, and said hey, jim's not
doing good, something's bad,this is bad.
And my brother pulled up andtried to block me in the

(49:56):
driveway and I just kind of didthat.
Austin Powers went around himand drove over my rock and took
off and by the time he got backin his car to find me I was gone
.
You know I'd hit a couple ofstop signs and got through and
he called me.
He says pull that fucking truckover now.
I said no, it's over, man, thisis it, I can't live like this
anymore.
And hung up and I just took offand all I could picture it was

(50:23):
the weirdest thing like tunnelvision, the size of this
microphone.
It's all I could see is adrinker, a womanizer, a user, a
liar, you know, alcoholic.
No matter what it was.
That's all I could see, youknow.
It dawned on me then that Ilost the first marriage because
I lived this way and I swear I'dnever do it again.
Now I'm losing marriage numbertwo because of this is the guy I
am.

(50:43):
I can't stop drinking.
I can't stop any of this shit.
They're going to be better offwithout me.
And people were calling mesaying picture your kids and I
couldn't At that moment.
You can't picture anything.
I couldn't picture anything.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
You can't see past the pain, you just can't.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
All I could see was my ex's face.
That look on her face was all Icould see.
And I told them.
I shut my find my friends offon my phone and I said when it
comes back on I'll be dead.
That's when you'll find me.
And I drove to this park andthis park trying to find.
And I went in one park.
I jump out of the truck and Ireach in the back seat to load
my gun and I look around andthere's families and I thought

(51:20):
I'm not doing to them.
What, what happened to me?
So I just loaded everythingback up and I went up in the
mountains and I found thisrandomly.
I picked Golden Gate Canyon andyou know Colorado, there's
canyons everywhere.
So I picked this random canyon.
I go up there.
I had a bottle of whiskey in thetruck and that was a

(51:40):
coincidence because it wasleftover from St Patrick's Day.
So of course I'm going to drinkit, right, but that did nothing
.
I mean, I didn't even have timeto get drunk to do anything.
So I I drive up.
Finally I get secluded, my cellgoes out.
I have no cell service and itwas quiet.
I was following this propanetruck that was filling houses up

(52:01):
the hill and I couldn't hear athing.
I had the windows open, Icouldn't hear anything.
It was just dark.
And so I pull off the side ofthe road and I'm up against this
hillside and I just reachedover, grabbed the gun and
thought I got to do it quick.
And I put it under my chin andI pulled the trigger and I heard
a click.
The gun clicked and I thought Ishouldn't hear.

(52:23):
What the fuck?
I shouldn't be hearing anything.
And so I thought, well, I musthave screwed something up.
So I look at the gun and it'son fire, it's not on safety.
So I pull the slide and ejectthat round out of my AR into my
truck and I step out and fire around into the hillside.
So I had it working forsomething.
It that one didn't go.
So I got back in the truck andI'm gonna do it.

(52:45):
And I, okay, I okay, I'm goingto turn my find my friends on.
And cause the first time wasjust impulse, you know.
And this one, I look at it andI it says SOS.
So I said, well, I'm not doingit here, cause there's snow
still around.
They're not going to find me.
You know, I've.

(53:08):
I kind of went into the samemode that poor guy at the was in
.
I don't want to lay here and bedead for a week.
So I start driving down thisrandom canyon and, um, I see
this white car of a head and asI drive by, it's my brother.
He's still looking for me.
You know, it's been like twoand a half hours.
He's looking for me and he'scrying.
I got, I got my ex's face in myhead and then now his and he's
the same same look.
So I pulled over and I justgave up and it was so heavy, man

(53:42):
, that the weight it was it was10,000 pounds, if it was
anything, man.
It was so heavy and I justcouldn't see.
I hated myself so bad because Iwas a cheater and a boozer and
a liar and I just didn't see anyway out of that.

(54:05):
I had no way out.
I didn think I was I waswithout hope right and um.
So I laid there and the guns.
My brother, luckily, had said asmart thing to the cop.
They said is he getting asuicide by cop?
And my brother said I don'tknow, I've never seen him like
this.
Maybe I mean he's.
He's an angry man so he could.

(54:25):
So they were ready.
They came up and they had gunsdrawn and two denver SWAT
officers this is up in goldennow.
They drove.
They drove around um the othercops and they said we got him
because they knew me, becausewe'd worked together, and they
put the cuffs on me and theypicked me up and one of them
just hugged me and said man,let's get you some help.
And I couldn't say anything.

(54:51):
I sat in their car.
I don't remember what I toldthem, but they took me to Denver
General and they put me on amental health hold which was
supposed to be 72 hours and Iwas just in this.
I remember waking up at somepoint and thinking man, what
have I?
done.
I went from being a guy incharge of 36 firefighters,
millions of dollars of equipment, people's lives, to sleeping in

(55:14):
this bed in a mental healthward.
How far have I fallen in mylife?
You know, I didn't get a DUI,didn't lose my job, didn't lose
my house, but I had lost my mindand I was okay with losing my
life.
You know, I didn't get a DUI,didn't lose my job, didn't lose
my house, but I had lost my mindand I was okay with losing my
mind.
I was not okay with admittingwhy, because I thought so.

(55:36):
That's when I kind of admittedI was drinking too much.
But that wasn't the reason.
And that's what really got meis it wasn't the booze.
I didn't go out and try to killmyself that day because I was
drunk.
I did it because of me, who Iwas.
So they put me in a mentalhealth hold for 72 hours and the

(55:56):
doctor came to me.
Now it was over Easter, so itwas good.
It was Holy Thursday that Iwent in there and Good Friday
Saturday.
And on Easter Sunday my son andhis wife came to see me and
nobody I mean you're talking themental health hole that Denver
health nobody's coming to seepeople.
You know they're just there andI got a visitor and my son and

(56:17):
his wife came in and she waspregnant and I remember thinking
what I'd done to them, not onlythe way I've been living, but
my cram baby was there with hermom, in her mom and I tried to
take myself out.
You know, it just felt sounfair but I couldn't see

(56:40):
anything good out of it.
So they kept me in there andthey said you can get out on
Tuesday.
And I told the doctor.
I said you can get out onTuesday.
And I told the doctor.
I said no, you said 72 hours.
He said, well, you can signthis paper right here and appeal
to the judge.
I said give me that fuckingpaper.
And he says, okay, well, yousigned it.
He says, well, the judge willbe back in Tuesday because
tomorrow's Easter Monday or Ican let you go Tuesday.

(57:02):
And my ex and one of my bestfriends had arranged a place for
me to go while I was in there.
The only way I could get out isif I was willing to go to this
place called Shatterproof forrehab, which was down in Florida
, and it's a rehab for firstresponders and military vets
mostly only.
There's another part of it forcivilian.
But this aspect of Shatterproofwas just for us, and so they

(57:26):
flew me.
So I got out.
Tuesday my buddy picked me up.
He wouldn't let me out of the.
They were waiting for me as Iwalked out the door because he
was afraid I'd go right to aliquor store.
What?
would you have, maybe, if hewasn't there yeah, I I think, I
think I would have done it Ithink now, because now I had a
good feeling, that I mean I knewthe wife.
My life exploded.

(57:48):
She had my, my access to myphone, everything.
I guess I kind of feeleverything you ever lied about
like you take a circular bomband you throw your lie in there
and you throw your PTSD in thereand you throw your cheating in
there and your infidelity andyour bad person.
You throw everything in thatbomb.
When I got caught that day itwas like that fuse lit and I

(58:08):
knew it was blowing up.
I just was hoping it was takingme with it so I didn't have to
live through the damage, youknow.
But I did.
I lived through it and so theysent me to shatterproof.
My buddy took me from there.
We stopped and talked to my exin a parking lot so she could
give me clothes and and kick meon my way.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
How did that.
How did that go?

Speaker 1 (58:27):
man I it was emotional, I mean obviously was
she emotional?

Speaker 4 (58:32):
or was she done?

Speaker 1 (58:33):
no, she, she wasn't done.
She was a cross between doneand heartbroken.
I mean angry and heartbroken.
She was so broken of what I'ddone to her and and now it was
just piling on all this stuff.
So I went away to shatterproofand my buddy here's a good guy
for you he got on the plane withme.
He was not letting me get onthe plane because he knew I'd
drink in the airport, knew I'ddrink on the plane, and he flew

(58:55):
down there with me and we landedat like 10 o'clock at night.
They put me in the rehab and Iwas bawling and he just hugged
me goodbye, and he said it was.
He said it was like dropping apuppy off at the pound.
He said it was.
He said yeah, and then littlewelled up puppy dog eyes and we
dropped you off.
And he says and I had to goaway and it broke him.
He was really sad, I bet but Iwent into shatterproof and and I

(59:18):
was like I said, I was willingto admit I was crazy.
I did not want to admit I wasan alcoholic because you know
when did, when did you finallycome to that?
I think part of the way throughthere I kind of I knew I mean we
had a lot of AA when we were inthere and they did a lot of
things.
They did brain mapping, we didPTSD testing and I tried blaming

(59:38):
it on that, but all of itcircled around.
I was covering everything I wasstruggling with, like I won't
deny my PTSD score, everything Iwas struggling with, like I
won't deny my PTSD score.
They tell you anything from a 1to a 38 on this test is
considered mild or moderate.
Above a 38 is considered severe.
So I like to win.
So I scored a 58 to make sure Iscored way above that 38.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Can you describe that a little bit?

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Some of our first responders may understand that,
but I had developed it over theyears and I don't know.
You know you should deal withit, you should talk to people
and now that's kind of my thing.
I got a young kid that I talkto all the time.
That's on a fire department.
I tell him, talk about it.
Talk about it, because when Icame out in the 90s we did not
talk about it.

(01:00:24):
One call I had that reallyjacked me up was right after my
son was born in 98.
There was a guy that died in arollover and decapitated himself
and I spent eight hours withhim.
We couldn't get him out fromunder this thing and I got to
know personally.
His wife showed up.
He had a son the same age as myson and we were celebrating our
first Christmas.
It was about to be Christmas.

(01:00:44):
We were celebrating our firstChristmas.
It was about to be Christmasand it broke me that day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
I started my wife you should just stuff that shit and
drink it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I just, I say I'll drink over it and you know
everybody would ask what's theworst thing you ever saw.
Well, I don't like thatquestion anyway, because why do
you want to know?
But I would say, rob, I'm tootough, you don't need to know,
this is to deal with, not you,and I wouldn't tell anybody.
And so for that one, I startedcrawling around on the floor.
I started like havingnightmares.

(01:01:10):
My wife would wake up and Ithrew her off the bed one time
because I was imagining she wastrying to stop me from saving my
son just the craziest thingsgoing on and I drank it away.
I spent six months.
No you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
You drank at it, but it didn't go away.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Right, that's a good point, rob eventually you learn
to swim it did, and so I didthat with all the cults.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
You know, I, I had one.
Uh, a couple years before therewas one I put in my bio to him
that we talked about was uh, Ihad three sid's deaths.
Now, this was when I was reallyyoung.
I didn't even know I had aproblem with this one.
It came up later in counseling.
But we had three sid's deathsin one day, like we went from
one dead baby in a crib to onedead baby in a crib, to one dead

(01:01:51):
baby in a crib that caused meto run the other direction.
We were we were out of uh oxygenby the third one.
So I had to give the baby mouththe mouth, you know, and and
you know with sid's you're notreally going to bring them back.
But you can't let the parents,you can't just stand there, you
know you have to do something.
So we were trying, but it was,you know.

(01:02:11):
You just know what year wasthat.
That was probably 95, 94, itwas before my kids.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
My wife katie lost a very, very close friend of hers.
They took to sids about thesame brown.
There sid's is not somethingyou hear of anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Sudden infidelity not much they've done a lot with
the way babies are positionedthey change that every few years
, because when we had our firstchild, there's only just over
two years difference.
What you're supposed toposition the baby in the crib is
one way.
Then, when my son was born twoyear and two and a half years
later, oh no, no, no, on theirback, not on their side.
You know that's so.
It's always changing.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
To try to marry they don't really know what causes
hits either.
So it's a lot of assumptionsand a lot of yeah, sleeping
positions, but now we have a lotof um, co-sleeping and a lot of
things like that that are hitor miss on how you look at the
crunchy mom era.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
I just I wanted to get her, her, her thought on it,
only because she's got one,that's just two, and just came
through that.
So when you told me that itbrought cause, I know that hit
Katie extremely hard and it wasjust her friend, right, it
happened to I'm.
I still have that baby'spicture on my mirror in my

(01:03:30):
bathroom because it it justdestroyed me.
I couldn't even imagine goingon to three of those in one day.
Like I said when you told methat I was like I told katie
about it and we both just it was.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
I mean, you just learned to deal with the death.
You thought.
You thought, yeah, right.
And I mean I hate to say this,but's every day I'd go to work
and I'd think I've seeneverything, and then I'd see
something more severe and it wasincredible.
But that call I had an officerthat was on the rig that day
that ended up being fired a fewyears later from the fire

(01:04:02):
department.
He lost his mind.
They found him crawling aroundin the fire department.
He lost his mind.
They found him crawling aroundin the firehouse had a loaded
gun in his locker, but at thetime you know nothing not that
the city does much more formental health counseling other
than get ready anyway anymore,but cheaper.
They fired him and it didn'tdawn on me till this all came
out that he was my officer thatday and so, and he had twin boys

(01:04:23):
, brand new twins.
So it's no wonder he you knowit tore him up like it did so
stuff like that over the years.
But that guy that gotdecapitated.
I started crawling around doingweird stuff, doing things and
you know, as the calls went on,it started adding up.
I had one, few years beforethis all happened, where there
was a family of five that wasburned alive.

(01:04:45):
Some people intentionally littheir house on fire wrong house.
They meant to get a drug dealer, but they got this family and
all five of them died two babiesand three adults and you know
the view of looking in andseeing mom holding that baby
trying to get to a window goodgrief.
So things like that.
I would just go home in themorning, boom, I'm going to
drink this away and I my wifewas gone at work, the ex was at

(01:05:08):
work, so I would just sit thereand drink and cry all day and
then I tried to get better bythe time she got home.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
How was your boys during stuff like that I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
the first one, the guy with the.
My son was six months, his sonwas six months, so it was and it
bounced.
Kids were tough.
Kids were always tough.
Whether I had kids or not, theywere Right.
Everything was tough, right.
You know, just seeing.
And I think towards the end itreally I didn't realize this,
but it started getting to methat I was just sick of seeing.
I was tired of seeing loss andlike, and when you're younger,

(01:05:41):
on the rig you go on the minorcar wreck and you help people
that are in a minor car wreckand they come out good and you
know, as you go on, as youprogress.
Well, once you get to the levelI was at as a chief officer, I
didn't go on as many calls a daybut I didn't go on those minor
car wrecks, I didn't go on theguy that had just fallen over.
I went on car wrecks wherepeople we had to cut them out of
the cars and there might not bea lot of them left.

(01:06:03):
I went on the fires wherepeople were dying or their
houses were gone or you know,there was major stuff empty
buildings that were being burnedand you were frustrated with
that, Like, why are?
Why are we just letting thisstuff burn?
Why is this?
You know Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
And I was getting more and more frustrated, and I
didn't realize that because Iwas only seeing the death, I was
only if, because I was onlyseeing the death, I was only and
if you don't do anything aboutit I mean it's not paying rent,
so you got in between, it's notbenefiting.
You kick it, you got to kick itout and you weren't kicking
anything, you weren't.
No counseling, drinking is nota solution.
Obviously was our problem, youknow, but that's what we thought
was yeah, so, but eventuallyit's going to come out, you know

(01:06:40):
and you know.
And if we don't do it in apositive way, like oh yeah, it's
going to come out like the bombyou described perfectly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
Yeah, and so when I got to rehab, they they dealt
with a lot of that.
They gave me.
I mean, they did brain mapping,they did a neuro stem treatment
, so they wire your head up andshock you.
Like you're going to find thishard to believe, Rob, but I had
zero impulse control, so theywere shocking my head.

(01:07:06):
you know doing different thingsand that really helped and then
they had emdr treatments and wehad breathworks treatments and I
took ketamine down.
There it was awesome because mysister that had passed away.
I had a 45 minute episode whereI talked to that sister the
entire time under ketamine andapologized for the way I behaved
when she was passing away.
And it was like me and youtalking right now Therapeutic,

(01:07:27):
and my brother Mark that hadpassed away.
I kept seeing him in all thesedreams, these ketamine
treatments, but I didn't talk tohim because I don't think I had
anything to settle with himbecause him and I were good, you
know, but her was, you know,was rough and there was four
buddies I saw in there thatsince then have all washed their
hands and walked away becausethey were just sick of the way I

(01:07:48):
was living.
Right, they were done, done,putting up with that guy real,
real quick.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
The ptsd test that you took.
What kind of test is that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
to be honest with you , I can't remember okay we did
so much writing and okay in thefirst couple days you're just
filling stuff out.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I can find out later.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
I'm not right now I'm just curious on that, how that?

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
is the soldiers that I sponsor, okay and there was a
lot of guys, a lot of vets inthere that had, you know, there
was a good buddy of mine thathad been injured severely, you
know, been in a car with an iedblown up, ied and you know my
good friend, mine's, back whenhe went back to rehab.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
You know, the young man that was supposed to come to
our meeting came once the rightdinner, right went back out,
well, but he came in, we didthis and then life got good and
then he got away from this andthen he went nuts again, you
know, but on his four-step.
And I can say this one majorthing on his four-step he didn't
want to take another life.
That was the biggest fear.
I don't want to ever killanybody again, rob wow yeah,
we've talked about you know it'syeah, but we don't.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
By no means am I discounting first responders in
this, but we as people.
I still think I struggle from alot of PTSD on the major
accidents that I was in.
I still see it going through mybrain sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
And you've probably been through more because you've
had those accidents.
And you've probably beenthrough more because you've had
those accidents.
They say the normal the averageperson will experience three to
four traumatic events in theirlife.
And they say the average firstresponder will witness 200 in a
20-year career.
Yeah, and I did a 33-yearcareer, wow.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
That's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
You know and there's a lot of things with first
responders that people don'tlook at Like firefighters we're
18% more likely to get cancerbecause of all the carcinogens
and everything burning.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Then they're done that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Suicide, suicide.
I want to say that we're 14%higher first responders to
commit suicide than the generalpopulation.
Our divorce rate is 60% to 70%,whereas the general population
is 50.
So there's a lot of things thatgo into it, and I think it's
because of everything you see.
But it's also the time away andyou start to rely on somebody as

(01:10:00):
your brother or your bestfriend that if your wife calls
and says, hey, you got to comehome, you say, no, joe, blow
over here, needs me to lay sodat his house.
I'm not coming home right, I'mgoing to his house right.
And you take time away and youdo a lot of dumb shit and a lot
of it for me and guys like meolder school guys drank.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
That's what we did too so now, do you, do you have
a sponsor?
Have you worked the steps whereyou at?
Do you do with any of this?

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
yes, and so I think you have a big book.
As soon as I got out ofShatterproof I went home and I
started going to meetings.
I got home May 10th.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Yeah, same yeah, two years after you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
May 10th 2024,.
I got home and I was at ameeting by May 11th 2024 in the
morning and I started doing 90and 90 and went and it took me I
didn't have a sponsor.
It was 44 days before I got outof the mental health hold and
the rehab, so I had 44 dayssober and I had.
It probably took me another twoweeks, three weeks, to find the

(01:11:03):
guy that I asked to sponsor meand then we worked the steps and
went through it and that wasthat was life changing.
That was that was when a lot ofthis started coming out.
You know, and he, I know youpush, you know you go quick, and
he I don't think he did with meand I think he realized that I
was in a hard case.

(01:11:23):
There was a lot to deal with inthere.
There was a lot of.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
Your fourth and fifth had to take a while.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
There was a lot of fucked up shit in my head and so
he did a great job.
The guy's amazing, one of mybest friends.
You know like I would considerhim.
The way you guys get along isthe way we get along.
We can.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
We fucking hate each other, exactly.
I can't stand.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
He's a pain in the ass If your sponsor doesn't piss
you off at a certain point intime.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
he did another sponsor.
He was doing his fucking job.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
So yeah, and I got a sponsor.
Now a guy I'm working with andit's Run, motherfucker run.
You did.
You already cussed me out.
I actually sent you a textbecause you said if you got a
sponsor that makes you writeanything for the first, for step
one or two, that's your fault.
You chose that cocksucker.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
When I said that, I said don't bitch at me about it
you chose the motherfucker.
I'm just saying because thisdoesn't say to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
I know it doesn't.
But again, I actually did havehim write something and the
reason I did because I Good,that's great.
You know what I say is we havealcoholics.
You hear everybody'sdrunk-a-logs.
Nobody ever really tells youthe drunk-a-logs where they were
face down sleeping under a bushin a pile of cat shit they tell
you about.
Oh, me and my buddies jumpedoff this roof and we did this

(01:12:34):
crazy fun shit.
So I wanted my sponsor toremember.
Hey, it wasn't the time withyour bros, right?
I want to know why you'repowerless.
And he, you know, he told mesome things and I said write
down.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
That's what I want you to look back and remember.
December 8th, I woke up andsomebody had shit in my pants
and put them back on me A catcame in and shit in my mouth.

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
That's funny, Do you and maybe you're going to go
into this, but do you go backand work with some of these
firefighters?
Have you really startedthinking about that?

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
I mean, what you've got is valuable.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
In time.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
In time.
I've offered to do it.
They actually.
I think next month I might gotalk to some people.
So, now, how long have you beensober?
I've been sober since March29th, 2024.
So almost 17 months, almost 17months.
God bless you.
So I want to go back and do dosome things now.
The reason I haven't is when Igot home from rehab like I had a

(01:13:29):
job.
When I came home, my wife wasworking on stuff.
She was man, she was amazing,she was willing to try, you know
, after all the cheating she'dfound out and all the everything
she was willing to try.
And I had a job.
I had, you know, living back athome and everything was good.
We actually went to Europetogether.
Yeah, when you told me thatyesterday, I'm like my ex and I

(01:13:50):
went to Europe together inSeptember and it was kind of a
make or break deal.
We wanted to see if we couldmake it and we were the best of
friends on that trip.
We had so much fun, didn'tfight, didn't argue, didn't
drink.
But she I think she realized itwas over.
She had a hard time gettingfeelings back for me because of
all the damage I done and Godbless her.

(01:14:10):
She put up with a lot and so wetried.
But you know, I had a job.
I got fired.
The Denver fire department firedme for conduct, basically for
conduct unbecoming, the day thatI tried to commit suicide,
saying well, you, you know youhad a gun in a park or you were
drinking and driving and I.
My theory, without going toomuch into it, is that's like a

(01:14:33):
bank robber pulling up sayingI'm going to rob this bank, but,
son of a bitch, all there is ishandicapped spots.
I don't want to take ahandicapped spot, so I'm going
to go home.
You know, that was that day.
I couldn't think of thehandicapped spot.
I didn't think of the handicapspot.
I didn't think of what, ofgetting in trouble on the fire
department because I was goingto be dead.
So I ended up getting fired inmy first year um we got divorced
in your first full year, butthat my first full year of

(01:14:58):
sobriety, I got divorced, lostthe job, moved out of the house
and um applied for unemploymentand the city denied me
unemployment even after I gotfired.
So I had no money and Icouldn't get my pension yet
because I had filed an appeal totry to get back on.
So I had to wait till thatappeal was over, which they drug
out for six months.
So by the time that six monthswas over I was out of money, out

(01:15:21):
of everything.
And that's when God showed upand my buddy got me a job,
working at that golf course, andI started working.
And then the appeal loss and Igot pension and started, you
know, rebuilding, rebuilding,rebuilding life and and living
life.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
That's pretty good.
You went through a ringer yourfirst six months.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
I blame and that I would think Rob asked me earlier
when did I start blaming myselfand knowing that it was because
of me?
That's when.
Because I hadn't got a DUI, Ihadn't done all these things.
But I looked back but throughthe step work you'd taken real
inventory Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Did you do your?

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
steps in that first six months.
Yes, did you really yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
That's quicker than most people do.
So, right, I don't.
I don't want to say the firstsix months, but probably in the
first eight months home.
So already too, it almost tookme a year to get all the way
through them all.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Before I started was willing to sponsor somebody good
that, uh, but so during thatsix months though, so when you
got home, until your the tilldivorce was final, or divorce
lost job, all that bad shitbefore the good shit started to
happen what kind of timeframewas in there?

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
You know I will say and this is I got from a buddy
we'd go golfing, even when Ifirst got home and he'd say how
are you doing?
I said great and I feel great.
And then the next time he'd belike how you doing?
I said better than I was lasttime.
He says you tell me that everytime and I said that's because
it's getting better, because thesobriety is progressive, just
like alcoholism, is it startedmaking me feel so much better

(01:16:58):
and that obsession to drink wasgone and I think when that went
away I started feeling better.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
I have a couple questions.
Yeah sorry, no, no, no, no,come on, stop me.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
I talk too much.

Speaker 4 (01:17:07):
Almost like Larry.
You said that your wife tookout the guns out of your house.
Were you threatening suicide orwere you?
Was she just like, hey, thismight be coming down the
pipeline.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
No, you know that that's a good point.
So the buddy that ran into mein the parking lot, I had him
take that gun because originallyI was going to shoot myself
right there.
And then I said no, I'm notdoing it here at the firehouse.
And then I had him take it.
So I kind of felt safe and hegoes don't go home, just stay
here, just stay here.
And I said no, I'm going home.
He picked up the phone andcalled my wife and said and get

(01:17:42):
out of the house, because hedidn't know if I was homicidal
or suicidal or what.
But he said get the guns.
And she got them all, cause Ihad a bunch of handguns, you
know little.
I had a hunting shotgun andstuff.
But the AR-15, I think, wasjust out of sight, out of mind
for her and it was for me, untilI saw the case sitting there.
And then I was like all right,and when I walked in she was

(01:18:04):
packing and all the guns weregone.
So and I was like all right,and when I walked in she was
packing and all the guns weregone.
So I thought man, not only isshe leaving me and her heart's
broken, but she's actuallytaking guns because she thinks I
might hurt her.

Speaker 4 (01:18:13):
So I am the biggest piece of shit.
I just added to it.
Did you contemplate hurting her?
No, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
I had already.
I might as well have put herdown and stopped her.
I'd done so much to her, so no,I never thought about hurting
her.

Speaker 4 (01:18:28):
You said that you were the chief, right.
Yeah, I was an assistant chief.
Yeah, how did you guys debrief?
I come from a little bit ofbackground his law enforcement
and stuff, so we deal withthings parallel, but still
batshit crazy.
Great question how do youhandle, like, the SIDS case?
You had three in a day, like,and I know you weren't probably
the assistant chief back then,but when you're coming back,
what does that look like for theguys that were on the call?

(01:18:51):
Is it cool?

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
Well, yeah, and back then, like when I had the SIDS,
we didn't do anything.
We did nothing.
We went in um the guy thatreally got me the decapitated.
It was about the same timeframeas the SIDS.
The captain comes down in themorning he goes hey, that was a
rough call.
Is everybody good?
Anybody need anything?
Well, you know, I'm sittingnext to some guy that's been on
for 30 years.
He's smoking a cigarette,drinking his coffee.
He says I'm good.

(01:19:13):
What am I going to say?

Speaker 3 (01:19:14):
It's just a Tuesday.
Yeah, I'm good, just a Tuesday.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
I'm good.
I thought it was making thepapers.
So I kind of took the reins andI immediately called all my
stations and said everybody callyour spouses right now and let
them know that you're okay,Because what I was afraid was
going to hit the media wassuicide at a firehouse and then
every spouse out there was goingto panic because it was in that
area.
So I made everybody call theirspouse to do that.
I put the rig out of service sothe guys could just they didn't
have to worry about going onanother call.
And then we called in the peersupport team.
I called the peer support team,they came over and a couple of

(01:19:57):
guys talked.
Then the next day calleddispatch and I said send me as a
chief on every call with 18s,any call they get.
That isn't you know, it isn't afall or isn't an alarm system.
If it sounds like it'straumatic, send me with them.
And so we went on a stabbingthat night and actually my
officer got bit by a dog whilewe were there.
He was trying to get to thelady and the dog bit him.
And again I took him to thehospital and he was getting the

(01:20:20):
wound stitched up.
We heard nothing from theadministration, nothing.
But I was trying to be there.
And then I called our peersupport, brought in the
counselor and then so we wentout of service the next shift in
the morning everybody sataround and we talked to this
counselor in the morning andshe's actually still my
therapist to this day.
She is an amazing lady.

Speaker 4 (01:20:38):
Do you guys think that your peer support was
well-equipped?
No, no, it was just.
We checked the box.
It was a box check.
We have peer support.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
As a matter of fact, it just came out in the paper.
I don't know when it was.
It's been since I've been gone.
The city of Denver actually cutthe mental health budget for
the Department of.
Safety by 60%.
Of course they did.
Yeah, they wanted Not six, no60.
Six, zero.
And the state of Colorado cutit even more because they, you
know.

Speaker 3 (01:21:05):
Tell them why.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Well, we got to pay for the homeless, we got to pay
for the mayor of Denver.
I mean not to get into politics, I don't want to get into
politics?
Yeah, that's probably goingdown a different road.
Yeah, that's a rabbit hole.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
I have an obscure question to jump in.
Here's my obscure question.
Okay, the round that youejected from the AR that went in
try around or was it was thislike self-loaded ammo, or was it

(01:21:35):
something?
No, it was, it was purchased doyou see god's hand in that at
all?

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
oh yeah you know it'd be stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Not to well, hey, I gotta ask I know here's you want
to hear god's hand.
So my, my brother that waslooking for me, his wife is very
I mean, she prays.
She's stout, she prays all thetime, she believes in everything
and she's a wonderful woman.
He called her.
He says Jim's out, he's tryingto kill himself, start praying.
And she went up to her prayerroom and she didn't pray to God.

(01:22:02):
She prayed.
She prayed to God to make myguardian angel save me and all
she prayed is that the gunwouldn't work.
That's all she prayed for isthat the gun wouldn't work.
So I want to say I was spoilednot seeing that as a God shot
because I was a.

(01:22:22):
I was a spoiled bitch.
I mean I'd gone into buildings.
I didn't even realize how manytimes he had saved me in in a
building or you know somethingfalling on my head or or not
getting killed in a DUI accident, whatever it was.
I never realized all thesethings that he'd done.
So I was spoiled.
I didn't really chalk it up tothat.
I chalked it up to I don't knowwhy for a while.

(01:22:44):
And then it it hit me that youknow you're here for something.

Speaker 4 (01:22:50):
What was your sister-in-law's response?
Like knowing that she, she, sheknew exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Yeah.
As soon as she heard, she saidthat's all I prayed for she,
didn't have a doubt she has nodoubt in her mind that her
praying for that is what causedthat and that's why I'm here.
And her husband my brother, was.
He was really, really.
I feel so much guilt.
I mean, I know, you knoweverything causes guilt, but I

(01:23:17):
put him through hell.
That poor guy looked and thatwas the other thing.
Why did he go up that canyon?
Why?

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):
in the fuck you said in the beginning it was very out
of the way place it was, and hedidn't know I ever went up
there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
So why did Joe turn up that canyon and say this is
the one I'm going to look forhim at?
He'd looked for me in parks,he'd looked for me all over.
He went to my parents'gravesite looking for me and he
said I'm going to just turn upthis canyon and see if he's up
here.
And there I was.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
How far off the main road were you?

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
Oh, that was three miles up.
I had driven up till it turnsfrom asphalt into dirt and then
I was coming back.
Wow, so well, there was a Imean God was, god was all over
it, you know he, but I didn'tsee it.
I was so lost in everythingelse and just I felt like the

(01:24:09):
devil, like there.
There was no way I could putanything together.
I just felt so bad and it tooka long time for me to quit
feeling I still feel the guilt.
I'm never going to not feel theguilt.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
So one of the things that you know that, as you were
talking about that heaviness,you know it's.
It's hard for me, even this farremoved from that deep
depression that I was in, tolisten to another human being
talk about it, because it takesme to that spot, to that moment,

(01:24:46):
and for anybody that's neverfelt what you and I once again,
not the PTSD, none of that, buthow you describe that heaviness
and how deep and dark you were,it's brutal, it's a brutal place
to be and to hear another humanbeing describe it the same way

(01:25:06):
it feels to me, it just itliterally grips me and takes me
to that spot for a moment, butI'm able to grab myself and get
back out of it.
Now do you, when you hear otherpeople talking about this, that
kind of stuff, do you findyourself still feeling that,
seeing it?

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
I think when I hear people like in the meetings talk
about, I just want to hug them.
Oh yeah, thank you, I want todo with that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
What that?

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
cop did for me.
I want to pick them up and Iwant to hug them and tell them
you can be all right, man.
Oh yeah, and that cop here's agreat story.
Uh, the next January I was atthe stock show rodeo in in
Denver and he was working.
I saw him and I picked him outNow I can't remember anything
from that day and I picked thatguy's face out and I went up and

(01:25:51):
said face out, and I went up,said do you remember me?
And he says, oh my god, yes, Ido.
Wow.
And man, I thanked him so muchbecause he knew I was a mess and
I, you know everything was justa wreck, but he'd never he's
like people in a.
He didn't judge?

Speaker 3 (01:26:05):
he didn't judge.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
He just was so glad that he got me before I was dead
.
That's a guy that that does hisjob for the right reasons.
Right, and there's so many ofthem that do.
We don't want people to gethurt, but it tears us apart.

Speaker 3 (01:26:19):
Do you see anybody from your old houses?

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
Yeah, there's a core group of guys that I still talk
to, quite a few of them from myhouse.
The latest one A lot of guysI've fallen off, and it happens
when guys retire you disappear.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
I'd been around 33 years.
I mean there was guys coming onthe job that I couldn't.
I had no idea who they were, sothey'd never met me.
So when they hear you knowchief Hart's gone, they're like
who in the hell is that?

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
I don't even know that guy, right.
You know they never worked withme.
So there's still a few guysthat I keep in contact with and
you know my family, all you know.
They're a bunch of retiredfiremen too, right.
I try to keep in contact andI'm trying to work on some of
the relationships there.
There's still a few that aregone, but you know there's still
some we're working on.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
Any family in the houses, any of the firehouses,
any of your family in your oldfirehouses.

Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
My nephew is at one of my old firehouses my
brother's son he's but you know,it wasn't the one I was at when
I went down.
Right when I went downhill Iwas at uh station 15 and they
watched it.
They, we were so close, theyknew something was going on
those last five, six months.
They didn't know what.
Yeah, and that was, that wasthe bomb, that was the things I
was hiding bomb, that was thethings I was hiding.
I was hiding from them and youknow, oh, I came in late.

(01:27:38):
I had I was cold or my ex isout of town for work.
I have to call in sick.
Well, well, yeah, I did have tocall in sick because I've been
out drunk for four days andsupposed to come back to work
drunk.
So it was hard to put a fingeron, I think you know, I'm still,

(01:28:00):
I'm, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:28:01):
I've never been shut up.
I know where this is going.
I'm lost for words.
Really, I'm trying to bring youknow because that, honestly, jim
, I've spent the last two dayswith you, we've spoken a lot
about and I honestly didn't seethat story going, going that
direction.
I didn't I don't know why, Ijust didn't see that story going

(01:28:22):
that way and and I told youthis the other day when we were
going up there sometimes it'sbetter not to know the whole
story, that's why, jim, I don't,I don't like any, I, I don't, I
like to just come in cold, yeah, and hear him.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
It's always better than to try to for me it is.

Speaker 3 (01:28:37):
I don't because I'd like to be prepared for some of
that, because I mean for me,emotionally, I think, is the
thing for me right?
Because I mean and I honestlythe like I said a little loss
for words that that's probablythe most heartfelt story that
we've had here so far andbecause it's it's still very

(01:29:01):
fresh for you.
I mean, kim, and mike stillmanswas a very that was a rough one
to listen to and to go throughwhat part of that?

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
because I thought about that part, that story,
when we listened to you.
What part of mike's story isidentical to his?

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
the friend that got on the plane yeah right, I was
thinking the same thing when hewas what about that friend, you
still?

Speaker 1 (01:29:23):
oh yeah.
And actually when I got to uhshatterproof, my ex called and
she said look, I need 30 days, Ineed you to be there.
I don't want to have phonecalls, I don't want to be there,
I don't want to have phonecalls.

Speaker 3 (01:29:34):
I don't want to hear from you I don't want nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
So I listed that guy as my emergency contact, Okay,
and he was getting calls fromthe psychologist.
Now my ex said that but she wasstill checking in.
She didn't want me to know shewas checking in because she
didn't want me to think she gavea shit.
She really did.
So you know she was checking inand but that buddy was man, he

(01:29:57):
was there and he was going tofly back to florida to fly me
home, because he was scared ofthe same thing and I told him.
That's when.
I told him all right, hold on,man, I'm coming home.
There's a liquor store on everycorner.

Speaker 3 (01:30:06):
If I decide, I want to drink.

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
I'm gonna go drink you.
You are not stopping me just bygetting on it.
Why would you spend six hundreddollars round trip to stop me
for two hours if?

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
I want.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):
I'm not doing that and I can't say forever, but I
will tell you it's not happeningtoday.
Right, it's not happeningtomorrow, and so he stayed home
and he picked me up at theairport.
But he's an awesome guy,awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
And you guys stay pretty close now yeah we're
still really close.
You have probably one of themost serene jobs a human being
could have.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know howyou can have a bad day on doing
what you do.
Explain to everybody what youdo for a living in your retired
life.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
I wake up.
No, I get up early and go tothe golf course and I mow the
rough.
So it's really, it's reallynice, cause I, I just drive
around there.
I mean there's acreage, I candrive all day and not get it all
mowed, so I just drive from oneplace to the other mowing the
lawn and I get to see man.
I've seen elk out there, I'veseen coyotes, I've seen I've
seen owls, eagles, everything,and I just watch the sun.

(01:31:11):
I send you guys pictures allthe time.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:31:13):
Sun coming up, sun going down, depending on the
time of day on there, and it'sjust peaceful and we go until it
starts getting hot about one inthe afternoon and then we're
out of there.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
Well, hot in Denver is 80.

Speaker 1 (01:31:23):
No, no, we'll be over 100.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
Can you?

Speaker 1 (01:31:27):
Yeah, oh yeah, this month has been 100.
So tell me what your life lookslike right now.
Jim, it's good I got that job.
You know I'm thinking I'm goingto.
That'll only go till Octoberand then I think I'll enjoy my
pension and the retirement forwintertime and try to go back
and work with these guys in thesummer.
It's great Little half and half.

(01:31:47):
You know, the house that I toldyou my ex bought is.
We used it as a rental thewhole time, so I moved into that
, okay, and she's got the housethat we remodeled and it's good
for her.
She didn't have to pack hershit and go.

Speaker 3 (01:32:00):
So you guys are going to live closely.

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):
Yeah, we live about six blocks away.
We share dogs.
We got two dogs, custody.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
Go ahead See.

Speaker 1 (01:32:15):
You said he crossed fingers.
Did you see what?
Did you see what he just did?
Yeah, but we share.
We share custodies of the dogand you know, and that's like
I'm here, so she's got them andwe're still.
We were better friends, I think, when we were living together,
obviously because she had to,and I think she just needs a
break.
I mean, I I don't blame her, Ican't believe she even talks to
me at all, let let alone cordial.

Speaker 3 (01:32:35):
Have you guys had a chance to talk about?

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
like sit and talk about those last six, seven,
eight months, yeah, we did whenI was home, because I got home
from rehab in May and I didn'tmove out of the house until
January-ish.
So we were home, we talked alot, okay, and that's when we
realized that it just wasn'tgoing to come back.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
And have you ever thought of it?
You got a long ways to go and Ican see where God's going.
But, given back to firstresponders being, I mean
starting something for the, forthe young ones that are coming
in, so they don't have to.
If they don't, they don't wantto.
I mean they can choose to gethelp, but they can choose to.
What was the word you used?

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
uh, when you like, debrief, you know and I think we
we touched on that, but Ididn't get back to it.
Right, there's supposed to be atopic when I go home no, no, we
brought it up already no, itwas.
Somebody asked me, but I didn'tfinish.
It was in september, when I goback, I'm supposed to go speak
at um for denver, for anybodythat wants to come here to talk

(01:33:35):
to some of those guys.
However, that's where the rubis with the city of Denver.
They would never invite me back.
The union is inviting me backbecause they can do it they're a
union but the city of Denverwould never invite me back
because they let me go.
And then the same thing withother departments.
If they would ask me, I'd comespeak because we can't bury this
shit.
You have got to not bury thisshit.

(01:33:57):
It, and burying it with boozeis just a mess have you worked
through the union for that?

Speaker 3 (01:34:03):
the union is probably would be strong for that no,
well, they're trying to get meto come right, talk to their
guys but they, when Idisappeared no, that was.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
They knew their hands were tied.

Speaker 3 (01:34:12):
There was nothing no, no, what I?
I don't care about any of that.
What I mean is gonna come?
The union ought to be wantingyou to come in and talk.

Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
Yeah, I'm sure they do they're the people that have
asked me, yeah, and I'd like togo talk and let people know that
, apparently, burying ptsd andemotional trauma with booze is
not the way to go god bless itnow.
I just found that out who wouldhave guessed.
Guessed it, yeah, who'd haveknown, damn it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:35):
You raised your hand a minute ago.
Did you ask your question?

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
It wasn't a question.
I'll say it off air is what I'mgoing to say.

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
Oh, okay, it's going to be on air.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
Oh Well, jim, and it's not a question.

Speaker 4 (01:34:55):
It's yeah what?

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
how's your relationship with your
children's mom and your childrenat now?
Oh, I'm glad you brought thatup.
So when I was in rehab I askedmy sons you know, my spouse, my
ex, wrote me an impact letterand it was man brutal it you
know of all the shit I've done.
So I asked my sons to do it.
Now one of them I mean theyounger one, we're so tight,
he's like dad, I never saw aproblem, I never said well
bullshit.
But he just doesn't want toadmit it.
I try to talk to him about theolder One of them.
I mean the younger one, we'reso tight, he's like dad, I never
saw a problem, I never saw wellbullshit.
But he just doesn't want toadmit it.

(01:35:17):
And I tried to talk to himabout it.
The older one said all right,and he wrote a letter and it was
rough.
It was really rough because Ithought all the years my
alcoholism was only affecting me.

Speaker 2 (01:35:28):
We only hurt ourselves.
Come on.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
Yeah, I was only hurt myself it.
Why did and man, the damage Idid to that poor kid?
That's why we were talkingabout college.
That's why when he went away,he was gone.
I wanted to be away from youbecause the way it was.
But now they're like.
I asked them if I could usetheir names coming on here.
They're so happy, they're likedad, you're doing great, we're
proud of you.
So it's really better.
And my granddaughter's beenborn.

(01:35:49):
Since I've been home and I gotto babysit her on new year's Eve
and then, like I said, theseguys are pitcher.
Two weeks ago I got ababysitter for like three hours.
We were playing and it's justit's different.
You know it's.

Speaker 3 (01:36:01):
It's making me value one drink away one drink away
from blues and all that, or onebullet away in your case.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Yeah, one bullet away .
I gave a buddy of mine sixrounds from the same ammunition
and he's a reloader and stuff.
I said, shoot all these andmake sure they all work.
And he did.
And then he rebuilt me onethat's dimpled, that looks like
the round, and I have that.
It's in with my AA chips.
Good, but just to remind me.
I mean, that's like thesetattoos on my arm.

(01:36:30):
They're all reminders.
I'm like him.
I don't want to.
I need to remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
I just need to calm down sometimes and I need.
I don't have enough arm.
I don't have enough, I'm sure,so I don't have long enough arms
to get the tattoos I want, so Igot my tattoos on something
else oh good, god, well, you cango around your.
No, you can't go around yourbicep but yeah, my relationship
is sorry about that, sorry aboutthat I've been told to shut up

(01:36:58):
about that.
I keep telling everybody wehave a lady in here.

Speaker 3 (01:37:01):
You guys behave, this is recovery unfiltered podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
But what she has done from her what she has done with
.
You know law enforcement, she'sseen in her.
Oh yeah, she's amazing, andthere's a great story too.
Yeah, yeah, it's and dad never.

Speaker 1 (01:37:14):
They're still having a great story too.
Yeah, yeah it's, and Dad nevertalked about it.
My dad came home, he nevertalked about it that was that
generation?

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
You don't talk about it?

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
No, and so.
Your generation was the same henever told me anything about
World War II, so I just thoughtthat's what we did.
We just buried shit and I'm notblaming who has time to sit
around and cry about the shitthat went wrong you don't Fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
I had two and I didn't have time to do shit.
Yeah, of course they were girls, but Well, that's triple.
He had four girls.
Hey, you did so.
He did say would he abouttaking the booze and the condoms
to your sons?

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Oh yeah, that was bad .
Now his mom's going to know,Marla's going to know, but was
gonna know.

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
But I uh, I could cut it if you don't want it, but it
was freaking funny, it was along time ago, so it'll be all
right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
When my son moved into college, uh, I went out
there and moved him in, and soyou know he's a freshman in
college.
What are you gonna do?
You're gonna drink and you'regonna sleep around.
So I took him a 12 pack or acase of beer and a box of
condoms to his dorm room the dayI moved him in and he looked at
me like I was be all's abovehimself.
He's like get that shit out ofmy room and go.

(01:38:19):
And I said but what if dad go?
He kicked me out of his room soI had to drive back from kansas
city how much of that booze didyou drink on the way back?
it didn't make it home.
It didn't make it home that'sfunny and I have balloons all
over the back seat well, jim, II appreciate you coming man.

Speaker 3 (01:38:44):
That that's powerful, that's some powerful stuff and
I'm so glad you reached out torob and I see, I didn't say me,
I did not say me.
I'm getting better as a podcastI'm just surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:38:54):
I'm glad you reached out to me on my podcast at my
house and came over and saw me Iam so.

Speaker 3 (01:39:01):
So we're.
We are very blessed that youreached out to us.

Speaker 2 (01:39:06):
I appreciate it but think of it.
He reached out to the you knowthrough the podcast, and now
he's here right podcast righttelling a story god stuff,
because I love the way God moves.
I love watching God move.

Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
Right, this whole AA is.
I mean, what are the odds of meconnecting with you guys
halfway across the country?
Right, it's all because of theprogram and God.
Yeah, you know what God and theprogram.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
And a vision this dipshit had, and you know what,
and that's the thing right Startthis and started with me having
a vision because a friend ofmine's son died of a fentanyl
overdose to that knuckleheadover there agreeing to do this
with me, to you know, nonstop,constant hammering after these

(01:39:49):
podcasts, some of them good,some of them just Rob and I just
and as the grow, and as I'velistened to the growth, as we've
grown, you know, yeah, not somany f-bombs, which, but I don't
know if I've said one I don'tthink I've said I might have
said one or two.
I mean not fuck I had to get oneout you know there's, yeah, but
there's, there's been right butthe direction it's god's got it

(01:40:09):
going finally yeah, and it'sjust and all, and god's just in
control of this thing and,honestly, I've turned it over.
You know I did, I grabbed ontoit for a long time going this,
this, this, this, and I'm likewhatever.
But you know, and I had to dothat, when I brought my
daughters on, right, that wastough, that was tough.
And look what it's done, right,my daughter's coming on and

(01:40:35):
Katie, you know, and Katie wasthe tough one because she didn't
want to, and I said, baby, it'snot for us, it's for other
people, right, it's for othersouls, right, sean and Mary
reached out because of it, jim'sreached out because of it.
I've spoken to other people thathave heard Katie's and you know
, and it's just, and thank God,thank God, we made it as far as

(01:40:56):
we did.
So, because of the amount ofsouls we're starting, that is
starting to pile up, is amazingto me, just amazing.
And and you, jim, are a hugepart of this and I appreciate
you coming- Well, you talkedabout the vision, and that's why
I crossed my fingers.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
I told you my mom says somebody's talking, you
don't want to interrupt them,you just think of whatever it is
and you click it right inbetween there and it'll stay
there fuck it, I interrupt sothat's why I crossed my fingers
well, I got the impulse problemthat you do.
I just so, uh, he talked aboutthe vision and you know, god
coming to him and I, when I wasin rehab, I felt like somebody

(01:41:35):
was saying tell your story, tellyour story, and I would share
it in group and things, but notnot like I did here, you know,
and I denied it.
I kept thinking why is my storydifferent than anybody else's?
I don't know that it is, it is.
So I got called and finally Isaid, okay, I this over Whatever
, wherever you need me to speak,whatever.

(01:41:56):
Well, since then I've been backto Shatterproof and I've spoke
there, came on here with youguys.
I got invited to do an hourlong AA meeting out of Arizona
on a group that I did online.
I shared my story for my oneyear anniversary at Primary
Purpose, shared it there.
So I've shared my story a lotsince then and I did another

(01:42:16):
podcast and I did a blog and Ifeel like, all right, I turned
it over.
So if you want me to go speaksomewhere, I'll go speak,
because if it it's thatimportant, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:42:25):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
If it helps, one, just one.

Speaker 3 (01:42:28):
Right, that's what I prayed for this morning at
church.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
Just give me one person that reaches out to you
guys or to me that needs help.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
And you can reach out to us.
Get a hold of Jim atrecoveryunfilteredpodcast at
gmailcom.
Recoveryunfilteredpodcast atgmailcom.
Jim, you want to give youremail, or do you want to just
reach out that way?
You can, if you want.

Speaker 1 (01:42:49):
Yeah, no sure they can reach out to me.
It's Jim Hart 1-9-7-0.
They can, yeah, you can reachout to me, it's uh jimhart1970
all one wordj-i-m-h-a-r-t-1-9-7-0 at
gmailcom.
Right.
What year were you born?
I was born in 80.
Yeah, no well, I'm a little bitolder than you, just just a

(01:43:10):
touch just a touch, I'm not oldlike Larry.

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
Jesus Christ, he's 55 right now.
Let's get the hell out of here.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
We're going to come back and do another one with Jim
.
Next one's going to be a bitlighter, though.
Maybe.
Maybe, motherfuckers, it'sgoing to be lighter.
I can't do another one likethat one.
I can't.
That was good.
That was a good one it.
Thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 2 (01:43:36):
We hope you learned something today that will help
you If you did not come backnext week, and we'll try again.
If you like what we heard, giveus a five-star review.
If you don't like what youheard, kiss my ass.
I can't say that, can you?
Anyway, if you don't like whatyou heard, go ahead and tell us
that too.
We'll see what we can improve.

Speaker 3 (01:43:44):
We probably won't change nothing, but do it anyway
, something will be differentand something will sink in.
Take care, this has beenRecovery Unfiltered.

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