From Street Drunk to Hospital Executive

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What happens when a homeless alcoholic who had resigned himself to "drinking and drugging to death" finds recovery and transforms his life completely? Paul  story answers this question with raw honesty and profound hope.

Paul takes us through his journey from a childhood of constant relocations to his early drinking at age 13, through failed suicide attempts, living in his car, and abandoning his family—to eventually finding recovery in 1988. With unflinching candor, he describes the moment he experienced clinical death during a suicide attempt while in the Navy, floating above his body as medical personnel performed CPR, declaring "he's not breathing and his heart's not beating."

The transformation that followed his surrender to recovery is nothing short of remarkable. Never having graduated high school, Paul returned to education, eventually earning advanced degrees in nursing with a specialization in psychiatric and mental health care. Today, with 37 years of continuous sobriety, he serves as a Senior Vice President for Behavioral Health for a major healthcare system with over 150 hospitals.

What makes Paul's perspective particularly valuable is his unique combination of lived experience, professional education, and administrative expertise. As he works to improve mental health and addiction treatment systems at state and national levels, he carries with him the powerful awareness that "I almost got thrown away." This drives his compassion for those still suffering, particularly people experiencing homelessness and mental illness.

Throughout the conversation, Paul reminds us that recovery isn't just about stopping drinking—it's about building a life of purpose and service. His story demonstrates that no matter how far someone has fallen, recovery remains possible when that moment of clarity finally arrives and we're ready to accept help.

Whether you're struggling yourself or love someone caught in addiction, this episode offers both practical wisdom and the gift of hope. Listen, share, and remember: your past doesn't determine your potential.

Thank You for Joining Us.. Please share with friends. If you or anyone you know is struggling with alcoholism please reach out to us. We can get you help. [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:12):
hello robert okay, buddy, it's so nice that after
we hear a nice prayer, right,you don't have to hear about
someone talking about being on atoilet using that as your
meditation.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Oh, man, you know I I went through several trying to
get something different.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
The more things change, the more they change
yeah they are.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
It's good.
You know the buddy down thestreet that had the podcast.
He actually has a band calledHarbor Drive.
We're going to work togetherand get something up, something
running, but you know what?
I'm going to keep it simpleanyways, you know, when we first
started this podcast, I was allabout making something fancy

(00:50):
and pretty in the very beginningand and uh, you know what it is
.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
What it is, it's about the podcast now how are
you?
I'm doing good, buddy.
How you doing I'm well, buddy.
Hey, can I borrow that when Ileave?
I want to.
I'm going to go through thatfor the international, paul.
I'm sorry, our guest bring yourman.
Come on in our guest.
What is your name?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
paul range okay, well , he even went with the last
name how many have you been toany international?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
I've not yet been to an international convention.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
No, I have not seen some yeah, so that was, uh, that
was.
That was quite the experience,in fact.
You know what I want you guysto hear this real fast.
Hold on a second oh yeah, thatwas experience, that, that, oh
my gosh this right here is byfar one of the my favorite
things that I heard hold on asecond.
That was 40 000 people sayingthe serenity prayer.

(01:47):
Sounds like an airplane aboveyou guys too, you know what, but
that's the way it soundedinside that stadium.
Yeah, it was just.
You know, there were severalthings that were done inside the
stadium.
I mean, they said the serenityprayer was one, and a guy sang
hallelujah inside there, which Ihave it recorded too.
But my buddy, doug, was sittingnext to me and he had recorded
the serenity prayer and all youcould hear on his was him saying

(02:09):
it.
You couldn't really heareverything else and then I go.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Was that the guy with Down syndrome?
I thought that was an insidejoke.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
The WP that traveled with me, my travel partner.
Yeah, I warned him before wetravel.
I'm a high maintenance travelerman.
Between my snacks at bedtime.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
My favorite part of every meeting is the end, when
we all get up hold hands and wedo the Lord's.
Prayer I mean because I justget to watch all the
similarities but all thedifferences.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
That right there.
They didn't close that one withthe Lord's Prayer.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
And you guys didn't do a sobriety countdown, which
usually happens at everywhatever they didn't, they may
have done it at the old-timersmeeting.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I didn't go to that one.
Jason was supposed to go tothat one and you know he lost
his dog while we were there andthat was just so horrific, tell
me about it, you tell me aboutit.
You picked him up off the sideof the road Two of them, paul
and you, yeah, yeah, I mean, wewere there on, it was fourth of

(03:07):
july and you know I have a blacklab too and they, I mean he'll,
you can shoot guns around himall you want, but fireworks
drive him nuts, right, it justdrives him crazy.
And it was, uh, we were.
We get a phone call from jasonsays, hey, he's running late, he
, his dog, got got out and gotkilled.
And I'm like, oh shit and uh,so we get there and him and kim
finally show up and they, theywere pretty distraught, right.
Oh yeah, I find out that you'regoing to pick the dog up on the

(03:29):
side of the road and I'm like Ihad to call you.
I'm like, dude, you, what afriend you are.
I mean what a friend you are togo and do that.
I mean just just at the calland then come to find out you
didn't even pick up the rightdog no, he called me back at
four o'clock.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Paul, someone had found the real because it was a
black.
It was a black lab, you know,and his son had went out and saw
the scars at the same scars onthe nose.
But this dog was not not ingood shape, but yeah, and then
four o'clock in the afternoon,that was in the seven in the
morning, four in the afternoon,jason calls you back.
Rob, we got the wrong dog.
Uh, rooster was over onwarnerville and so I went, made

(04:05):
another trip.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Poor Jason had to go through that twice, twice.
Right had to go through thattwice.
And then, oh, rooster, rest inpeace, brother.
But yeah, he had him cremated.
And man, that's the worst partto when you lose a dog, it's
just horrible, especially onelike that and that's a sobriety

(04:30):
dog and he got right, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
oh, really, yeah, I did not hear that part of it
because he took wayne over toaaron's house when aaron still
had dolly the chocolate andbread so he could get one of
wayne's offspring, which wasrooster about four years ago
amazing dog.
Jason put a lot of love intothat, like he does everything
else a lot of love into thatanimal.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
So okay, anyway, so we're going to talk some more
about um, about theinternational convention, on the
next episode.
But we are going to talk somemore about um, about the
international convention on thenext episode.
But we are going to get to Paul.
We're going to hear some stuffabout Paul.
I've gotten to hear a littlebits and pieces of your story
and the amounts that I've heardI'm like I want to get him in
here.
I want to hear the whole storyWell we got to talk a little bit

(04:59):
before you showed up, sothere's some parts of it I'm
excited to get to about whathe's doing now, so tell us about
yourself, paul.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, first of all, thank you for asking me to come
and do this Our pleasure.
I feel like it's an honor to beable to share and certainly
anytime we can share wheresomebody might hear this and it
might make a difference.
Absolutely, that's the wholepremise of what we do.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
And we get people reaching in.
Well, the guy that's I'm goingto ask you the question, he's
from Denver.
We got it's.
It's waving at what God doeswith this stuff.
He just takes it and yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, well, that's, that's exactly what.
You know what happened to me?
It's funny because I familymembers of mine were praying for
me in my worst and my you knowand and I I didn't know it.
I mean, I didn't, I didn't knowit, and uh, one one brother
actually came after me when Iwas hiding out in the backwoods
of uh North Carolina.

(05:53):
And he found me and I don't knowhow he found we were.
You know, it was a Saturdayafternoon, we were down by a
little lagoon or Creek orwhatever and, and you know, just
drinking raisin hell andjumping off of a rope, swing
into the water, all that stuff,you know, and I mean back in,
first of all, where I lived wasback in the middle of nowhere,

(06:13):
but this was really back in themiddle of nowhere beyond that.
And he found me, he came downthere and all of a sudden I turn
around, there's my brother fromWisconsin and I'm like Joe,
what are you doing here?
And he says you know, I came totalk to you and how old were
you at this time?
I was 29, somewhere around there, and you know, and we talked

(06:35):
for about five or 10 minutes andI, you know, I was like well,
you know, thank you for wastingyour time, but I'm not going
anywhere, I'm not doing anything.
This is me now and, and you know, I had pretty much resigned
myself to the fact that I, thatI, uh, I was of no use to
anybody my wife, my kids, um,and, and really what I was doing

(06:56):
was running away to die and Ihad every intention of drinking
and drugging myself to death andit just wasn't happening fast
enough.
You know, um and and I I tellthis story I worked with another
guy.
We were building fences, farmfence, I mean stuff like that
out in the country, and VirgilVirgil was like probably in his
mid-60s and he was still working, right.
I mean, this guy would get upat the crack of dawn, he'd go

(07:17):
out and work and every night Iwould hear him screaming bloody
murder, because he would wake upin DTs.
Oh, wow.
And when he got his bottle hewas fine, wow.
I mean he lived in a littletiny, little one of those little
tiny camp trailer things and anumber of us lived right on site
at the fence company.

(07:37):
It was out in the country, sothe guy had a little building
off to the side and he letVirgil park his camper back
there.
But it dawned on me that Imight not die that next that I
could end up going, you might beVirgil.
I might be Virgil, I might begoing on and on and on and on,
like that, you know, and that,really, that gave me pause to
stop and think.
You know, well, I came up hereI was thinking you know, my

(08:05):
uncle, my mother's brother, wasa street drunk in Denver,
colorado, and this guy had eightkids and I remember my dad
taking groceries over to theirhouse because he was just so
irresponsible and this guy endedup in a state institution there
in Colorado.
Wet brain is what they calledhim.
Right, he was just totally.
I mean, the only time I everreally saw him after many years

(08:26):
was we brought him to a familyreunion and he was just out.
He was just totally out of it.
He didn't know anybody.
You couldn't.
Were you sober at that time orno?
No, no, no, I was a teenager,okay, around there.
What did you grow up, paul?
Well, I, I was born in wichita,kansas, okay, I.
I, as I mentioned, my dadworked for one of the greatest
songs in the world.
which is all lying GlennCampbell for, uh, yeah, um for

(08:47):
for Phillips petroleum.
Uh, he moved to.
He moved us to Memphis,tennessee.
Uh, we lived there for a fewyears and then and then got
transferred to Milwaukee,wisconsin, there for about five
years and then got trans.
He had a.
He had the option to go toSaudi Arabia or Charlotte, north
Carolina.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Whoa buddy.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
What year was that?
This was 1971.
Oh yeah, he'd been better offto stay here, yeah yeah.
So we moved to Charlotte andthat's pretty much where the
family ended up at.
I'm the sixth of seven kids andI didn't really have a bad
childhood growing up, other thanthe fact that I had a hard time
adjusting.
Everywhere I went I was northto south, south to North and I

(09:28):
always had an accident whereverI went and always got made fun
of, but it was.
It was also hard to fit inbecause you know kids that grow
up around one another theirwhole life and everything they.
I mean, I'm coming in and the,you know, nine, 10, 12, 13 years
old, you know, and, and, and,and trying to fit in, and I
never did Um.

(09:48):
When I got to Charlotte, one ofthe things that I had um, the,
the uh became clear is that Icould put on a persona of a bad,
a bad kid, you know, and thatwas how I got my attention and
that's, and that's pretty muchwhere a lot of the trouble
really started, when I was about13 years old and it was in, it
was in Charlotte, and I was, youknow, um, what normal kids do?
I mean it's, it's not abnormalfor kids to to, to experiment

(10:09):
with, with, like marijuana andalcohol.
It's what happens to us when wehave that disposition to to, to
get addicted to this stuff.
And I I I clearly rememberstarted drinking um
intentionally at about 13.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
It's funny how you say that though Intentionally,
yeah, I just I don't.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
I've heard people say that before and I'm like, and
you know, and it took me alittle bit to realize what that
means and I, I, I exactly knowwhat it means now.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Oh yeah, we do.
We're wired that way.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Cause?
I cause I I drunk.
I mean I had sips of beer andstuff from my parents and my
parents were not big drinkers.
I mean, every once in a whileI'd see my dad come home from
work and him and my mom wouldsplit a can of beer.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
I've heard you say that before Wow.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
And to me that was like I look back on that.
But then later on in life mymother pretty much after she
retired, she was just a classicstory out of the big book where
she just you know carpetslippers came out she started
drinking and I watched her drinkherself to death, I mean
literally, and she ended uphaving a stroke and ended up the
last couple of years of herlife just in really bad shape.

(11:15):
But going back to the, you know, starting off, I started
drinking intentionally at 13,any chance I could possibly get,
mostly on the weekends, butthen it became like every
weekend.
I mean, it was the mission ofthe weekend for somebody to get
drunk.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
So you didn't have any problem getting it.
Oh no, it was a wet county.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
Oh yeah, was there dry counties there too?
Well, in North Carolina theyhave what they call ABC stores.
They're state-regulated liquorstores.
But you can buy beer and winein a 7-Eleven or something like
that.
So you know, obviously I gotsick off of Boone's Farm more
than once.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
So now do you know Dawson?
We've had Dawson on the showFrom.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Primary Purpose From.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Primary Purpose and my wife loves him because
Dawson's dad was the inventor ofBoone's.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Farm.
Oh, really, damn him.
That's funny.
No it, but no it was, and itthings were taken going in a bad
direction again.
I mean, you know, I came from awhat I I think society would
consider a functional family.
My oldest brother fought inVietnam, came back just totally

(12:24):
messed up in the head.
And and I brother fought inVietnam, came back just totally
messed up in the head, Um, andand I watched him, he that that
man drank from the time he wokeup in the morning, the time he
went to bed, and you would havenever known that he was drinking
because he was always just Kindof remind you when my wife said
she's never saw me drunk.
Yeah, exactly, I mean when you,when you drink that much and you
know, and I used to look atother people and think, oh,
they've got a drinking problem.
I never looked at myself, wedon't, hell, no.

(12:46):
But my drinking, accelerated byother things, really took off.
And I mean by the time I was 25years old.
I was at the point where I wasquitting jobs because I was
afraid I was going to get fired.
Oh Okay, you were ahead of thecurve.
I was an assistant manager atMcDonald's in Rock Hill, south
Carolina, and I remember findingthose speakeasies that stayed

(13:08):
open all night illegally inSouth Carolina, and there were
times when I had to open thestore at 5 o'clock in the
morning and I wasn't donedrinking until 3.30.
And so I'd go open the storeand I'd crash in one of the
booths and that's where staffwould find me when they came in.
Where's?

Speaker 2 (13:26):
the boss.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
I'm drunk, passed out , you know, and I mean that's
one of the jobs I had to quitbefore I got fired.
But I worked in the foodservice industry for a number of
years, and certainly in thefood they say this about a lot
of different industries, foodservice, construction, you know

(13:49):
a lot of drunks and stuff inthat.
But I did that until I couldn'tdo it anymore, until I just
could not manage to keep a job,and that's when things started
going downhill.
That's when I ran away fromhome and went around Greensboro
and decided, just, it was it, Iwas just.
You know, that was my fate andthere was nothing I could do
about it.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
So when you say that, you consciously remember just
saying fuck it, yep, really.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
That's after you were married with children.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
And there was a 19-year-old female involved as
well.
Okay, there it is there it is.
Yeah, so I you know, but I, youknow I wasn't.
My marriage to my first wifewas just I don't know how to
explain it, it was not, I don'tknow how to explain it, it was
not a marriage.
I mean we did nothing but fightNothing, but I mean it was, was

(14:31):
she?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
a drinker too.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
No, oh really, no, no , but her dad was a drunk and he
had serious mental healthissues and things like that and
she grew up in a really abusivehousehold.
So it kind of it was no wondershe put up with me.
Any normal woman would haveleft me or shot me.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
It was normal for her For her.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
It was normal.
So you know, but for me it waslike you know, I just I was just
a restless, irritable,discontent drunk and I, you know
, I could never find my place, Icould never find contentment.
But one of the things I didcome to realize is that my life
wasn't going anywhere.
You know I had tried to commitsuicide twice by the time I was

(15:11):
25 or so.
How I joined the Navy when Iwas I just turned 17.
Navy man To try and get my lifeturned around.
I got in there and I didn'trealize it at the time, but I
suffer from depression and I gotin there and I was starting to

(15:31):
have trouble.
I was starting to have thesesevere pains in my chest where I
couldn't even breathe, and Iwent to the doctor and he said
it was anxiety, anxiety, yeah,and it was intercostal.
The muscles between my ribswere inflamed and he prescribed
me Valium.
Well, I'm going to an A schoollearning how to, as an aviation
boat's mate, learning how towork on catapults and arresting
gear on an aircraft carrier, andI'm thinking and this is their

(15:54):
answer they're giving me Valium.
I don't think this is safe,right?
Anyway?

Speaker 2 (15:59):
So this is mid to late 70s.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, mid 70s, 73, 74 .
And the one thing I loved aboutthe service is at 17 years old
I could walk into any club onbase, I could drink as much as I
want and my heroes were thelifers that drank their beer out
of pitchers.
But this particular night I wasreally this was the weird thing
.
I was at peace with leavingthis earth.

(16:23):
I was convinced that this wasthe weird thing is I was at
peace with leaving this earth.
I was convinced that this wasthe answer.
It was not a state ofdepression or anything.
It was a state of acceptanceand I had accepted the fact that
this was just not my time hereand I needed to go.
And I took that and I had nottaken that volume.
I took that whole bottle ofvolume and I took it all at one
time.
It was 35 milligram volumes andof Valium, and I took it all at

(16:44):
one time.
It was 35 milligram Valiums.
And I went out and I starteddrinking and I started drinking
hard and I don't remember whathappened next.
What I but I do, what I doremember happened next is I was
laying on my on the top of mybunk.
I was floating away from mybody.
I could see Navy corpsman overme doing CPR and I could hear

(17:05):
them clearly say he's notbreathing in, his heart's not
beating.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's an OBE out of body experience, yep.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yep, and I and I kept floating and, floating and
floating and it was in darknessand you know, and I was looking
down at my body and I washearing and seeing what was
going on and all of a sudden afear of panic came over me and I
thought I realized I'm dead.
Here's the other thing, as Ialso realized, I still had
thought and I still could feelemotion.
Wow, and it was weird.

(17:32):
It was like, okay, I want itout of this.
It doesn't look like I'mgetting out of it it looks like
I'm taking it with me.
And in an instant I was back inmy body.
Wow, but my body was like apiece of clay.
I couldn't move a muscle, Icouldn't say anything, I
couldn't talk, I couldn't doanything.

(17:53):
They took me to the infirmaryand the two corpsmen that were
there they had to wake up adoctor at four o'clock in the
morning and he came in and thiswas really funny.
They smelled marijuana on mybreath.
I didn't smoke pot.
I was never a pot smoker.
I didn't like it.
I never sought it out.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Same with me.
We got a lot in common.
I've known Paul for 14 yearsnow.
I love this.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Somewhere along the way that night I stopped and
smoked a cup with somebody.
I didn't remember, but thepoint being is I laid there and
I couldn't move a muscle.
But I knew what had happened tome.
I was conscious of that and Icould hear these guys talking
about let's throw him out in thesnow.

(18:28):
He's just trying to getdischarged from the Navy.
And if I could have moved Iwould have jumped up and I would
have tried to kick their ass.
I probably would have done it,but it made me.
I remember it made me veryangry to hear that because it
was like if you guys knew whathad just happened to me.
But anyway, the things I endedup getting sent to.
Actually, I ended up going AWOLbecause I didn't want to be on

(18:49):
the ship when it took off.
I got onto the Kennedy on theaircraft carrier and it was
getting ready to go over to theMediterranean and I was like I
don't know if I can do this,because I was already starting
to butt heads with my superiors.
I mean, the guy that I wasworking for, his nickname was
Cats because he worked on thecatapults and he was an asshole.

(19:10):
And I was like I don't, I can'tdo this man.
I just took off one day and Icame.
I came back to Charlotte and Iwas there for about three months
until I got into some troublewith some drugs and overdosed
and wound up in the hospital andthey find out who I was and
where I was supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
He was a wall or you.
We called it the Navy.
It was UA.
Unauthorized Absence.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Well, you know, I purposely left everything that
they issued me on the ship,which is technically a deserter.
Okay, oh yeah, yeah, and it wasduring the Vietnam conflict.
It was not yet over.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
So I was thinking, oh , I think I'm going to put me in
front of a firing squad.
I was very fortunate I gotcourt-martialed and I got a
general under honorableconditions, which actually kind
of blew me away.
That blew me away.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Explain that.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
Well, they decided that I was imagine immature.
They called me immature andrealized that I had probably
some serious psychologicalissues and difficulties.
This is where this is funny,because when I was in the, when
I first came back and they putme in a hospital I think this

(20:12):
was my first AA meeting is thatthey asked me to sit in with
this group of guys and Iremember we were sitting in a
circle and I remember we weretalking about stuff around drugs
and alcohol and now that I lookback on it, it was probably a
recovery meeting that I wassitting in at 17 years old and I
didn't even realize it.
If there was coffee, it was anAA meeting, it was coffee.

(20:33):
But I got out, I came home, Idecided I was going to do
something with my life.
I went back to a communitycollege, I started getting into,
I know I wanted a degree inmusic and I started doing
theater and so that's what I didfor five years, absolutely
loved it, never got a degree inanything not a two-year degree

(20:53):
in anything and, you know, justscrewed around.
But by that time the drinking,you know, I figured if I put the
drugs down, you know, then itwas okay to drink, right, but
the drinking just kept gettingworse and worse and worse and it
started becoming.
You know, it was daily.
It was drinking to get drunkdaily.
I never took a day off fromdrinking, even when I was sick
and and, and there were timeswhen you know, when I was

(21:15):
between jobs or something likethat and money was hard to come
by, I, I tell this story funny.
That was a commercial on tvabout there's something about an
aqua velvet man.
I drank that shit.
I drank it, you know, for thealcohol content.
It was nasty, I mean, but Iforced it down.
And then I drank cooking Sherry, which was also very nasty.

(21:36):
It was my, my parents'refrigerator, but this is an
example.
I would go to any lengths toget alcohol in my body.
It didn't, it didn't seem tomatter.
And and that's when I, you know, I, I got to do you.
Here's the funny thing is I, Iclearly remember one night
getting on my knees and prayingand saying God, if, if, if, if

(21:56):
I've got a problem, show it tome.
And and and please help me.
Right, I was, I was unemployed,I was being like a stay at home
dad.
We had three kids at the time.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
That's what the 19 year old.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
No, no, you got married after that, the 19 year
old, is where he ran with.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Okay, no, I never that.
That ended like okay, sorry,sorry, but no, we were living
because we could never affordanything.
We were either living with herparents or my parents.
At this point, we were livingwith my parents and I got on my
knees and prayed, and probablywithin a week I went out to a
bar with a friend of mine to seea band that we liked and I got

(22:32):
a DUI and you know, praying toGod for a sign.
No, that wasn't good enough.
I didn't recognize that.
So, but things, things juststarted progressively getting
worse and worse and worse andfinally it came to that point
where I ran away from home anddid all that stuff and came back
, came back to Charlotte after ahuge fight with this girl, this

(22:52):
19 year old girl.
She slashed my tires and brokemy windshield and and I was like
that's it, I'm done.
I didn't necessarily want tocome back home to Charlotte, but
I did and I called my parentsand I said look, I think I need
help.
They tried to get me into atreatment center.
The beds were full.
They got me into a psychiatricward of a local hospital, which

(23:14):
you know.
Okay, you qualified.
Yeah, most definitely, and Iwas there for about three or
four days I started detoxing andreally I mean the devil was
coming out of me and all thisother stuff, you know, and I was
like I don't, you know, I don'twant to be here.
And I tell the psychiatrist youknow, when are you going to let
me out of here?
And he said I want you to talkto somebody.

(23:35):
And he brought somebody from AAin and that person sat down
with me on a Sunday afternoonand she was showing me the
progression of the disease thejails, institutions and death.
I'd been to jail a couple oftimes.
By this time I was sitting in aninstitution and, as my story
before I had already died and Iand I sat there and honestly
looked this and convinced to inmy mind.
I looked at this person and Isaid that's not me, that's not

(23:57):
me.
Denial oh, it was a step belowdenial, it was delusion.
But I came out of therethinking, okay, something's got
to change.
I went home and I told my wifethat I'm going to stop drinking.
That lasted about two days, andthen I said, well, I'm going to
stop drinking.
And that lasted about two days.
And then I said, well, I'm justgoing to get a 12-pack and I'm

(24:19):
going to make this 12-pack last.
Well, by about the third day itwas a 12-pack a day at least,
and things just kept gettingprogressively worse.
I don't know when I'd gottenthe DUI.
It was court order to go to AAmeetings and I remembered.
I guess I remembered where someof them were and I don't
remember recalling exactly how Irecalled this particular

(24:42):
meeting, but I walked into it.
It was a Monday night meeting,it was a speaker meeting and
there was a man up there talkingand he was telling stories
about how he was an engineer andhe had gone from having a
reputable place in this companyto working in the basement
washing rags and on his way homehe used to walk past this bar

(25:04):
before he got really problematicand he would look in and he
would see these people in thisbar and these guys down at the
end of the bar cavorting withwomen and stuff like that, and
he'd pass judgment on them.
He said in the end he wassitting in that that bar and he
had lost some of his teeth andso he used to use those plastic
truth true cigarette filters andstuff.
So he looked like he had teethand that made me laugh like hell

(25:26):
, and the other people in themeeting were laughing too, you
know, and I was like Holy crap,you know, and and I, I didn't, I
still didn't associate with mebeing you weren't that bad, bad
Right, and but anyway, I, Ireally related to this guy.
And they pass out chips atthese meetings, at every meeting

(25:48):
, and the white chip is asurrender chip and like the 24
hour chip.
Yeah, and I remember walking upand I just started crying like a
baby and I couldn't, I couldn'tfigure out me tough guy, you
know, mr, tough guy, I, you know, it's like I'm standing there
crying in front of all thesepeople, you know, and, and I
couldn't stop and and and it waslike.
It was like the like thestories about vietnam vets

(26:10):
talking about getting theirfeelings out and how they were
afraid they'd be afraid thatthey couldn't stop the, the
emotion of crying.
But it that started the longjourney of my um resistance to
recovery.
Okay, I call it that because Idid, I did I did not, I did not.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
I came kicking and screaming it was like I, I
didn't, I didn't.
We haven't got to live in thecar yet no, well, I it was.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
It was right along that time that I was yeah, it
was around that time that I wasliving in my car, because no, it
was actually right before thatBecause I had gotten to the
point after I came home, thatperiod of time, about six months
in there, my wife and Icouldn't get along and I

(26:54):
couldn't quite stop drinking.
And that's when I started.
I just packed everything Iowned, which took about five
minutes, and I threw it in mycar and I was just going from
park to park around Charlotteand I was doing day jobs.
I was doing day labor jobs toget enough money to drink, and
that was pretty much my life fora while.
And I'd always get afraid thatthe cops were going to come and

(27:15):
you know, and arrest me for, youknow, for vagrancy and stuff
like that.
But it didn't.
And that's kind of what led upto that me getting to that
meeting and where I'd gotten tothe point where this just can't
go on like this.
But this guy was veryopen-minded.
He was about 15 years, sober,he had been diagnosed with
cancer he was supposed to be,you know, he had been given six

(27:36):
months to a year to live and weformed a relationship.
This man taught me things thatmy own parents never taught me,
you know, and he would hit mebetween the eyes with stuff, you
know, and he called out We'd bedriving to a meeting and I'd be
looking out the window, youknow, and he looked up one day.
I was looking at the, we werepassing by a bar or something

(27:57):
and he looked at me and said youknow what he said you're just
as addicted to excitement as youare anything else.
And I was like, okay, what doesthat mean?
I finally realized what itmeant, because it always had to
be drama in my life.
I was having difficulty, I wastrying to re-engage with my wife
and you know things like that.
I was going back to church andactually was a Sunday school

(28:18):
teacher for a while.
Wow, really weird.
I taught, I sang in a choir andyou know, I did all this stuff
to try and be a good re-entryinto society and all this stuff.
But at the same time, Irealized that I had to do
something more productive withmy life.
So first of all, I started abusiness.
I had a landscape and lawnservice business with a buddy of

(28:41):
mine who grew up with, and wewere growing this business and
it was going well, it was goingokay and we had actually hired
somebody and we had equipment.
You know, we were getting jobs.
And it got to the point wherewe couldn't continue to grow the
company and draw salaries outof it.
So I decided I was going to geta job.
A friend of mine in the programsuggested that I go to work at
this treatment center, which wasa very well-known treatment

(29:02):
center there in Charlotte, andthat's where I started in health
care.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Wow, what's your sobriety date?

Speaker 3 (29:13):
August 25, 1988.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Right before I graduated high school.
Yeah, no, right after Igraduated high school.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
So this was long in mid-1989 or so, I think early,
maybe spring, spring-summer of1989.
I went to work in thistreatment center and I realized
that I picked up a copy of theNew England journal of medicine
and it was talking about how thefield of recovery did not have

(29:40):
enough people with livedexperience and education.
There we go there were plentyof people in there with lived
experience and the and the, andthe field was being taken over
by people with education.
Okay, and and so you know those, the mix of those two things.
It was not as prevalent as itprobably needed to be and it was
.
At that point I decided I wasgoing to go back to school and I

(30:02):
decided I was going to be asubstance use counselor, until I
realized how much money theymade because I was paying child
support.
At that time my wife and Iseparated and I was paying child
support.
So along in there somewhere,one of the instructors said have
you ever considered going tonursing school?
Me, no, I never.
Me a nurse?
No, never, you know.
But at some point I said, okay,I'll do this.

(30:25):
I had never graduated highschool, I had gone through the
11th grade three times, I have aGED and I thought I don't know
if I've got the smarts and thebrain power to do this, and
certainly the stick to it it wasto do it because I was just.
You know, I was all over themap.
I thought it was ADD orsomething, I don't know.
But I went back to school and Istarted taking the courses and
I realized very quickly that Ihad not I had not circumvented

(30:47):
anything from high school.
I had to end up taking allthose courses that I missed.
So my first year at thatcommunity college was High
school.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Your senior year.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I did that and I was going to get a
two-year degree in nursing.
Somebody from one of the localcolleges came out and was giving
a talk and I thought, hmm, itdoes sound like a better deal to
get a four-year degree in a BSNrather than just an RN.
And they were talking about allthe doors that would open and
all that stuff.
And again, you know, and theywere talking about all the doors

(31:21):
that would open and all thatstuff, and and again, once again
, I thought, I don't think I,I've got, and you had, you had
to qualify.
I mean you, you, you appliedand and you know, they had
hundreds and hundreds ofapplications and they only
accepted like a hundred of thosea year.
And I got in and I got into thisand I and I and I did this and
it was one of the hardest thingsI've ever done.
I mean, there were times when Ijust wanted to give up.
I wanted to run away screamingBecause at the same time I was

(31:41):
still having to work and do thechild support thing.
So I was working two jobs andgoing to school.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
You had a full life?

Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, I was working construction.
How much AA were you?

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Oh, very very very much.
So there was a full job AA andgoing to school, recovery, all
of that yeah, and there for awhile.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
I mean, I was one of those people that I thought you
know meeting every day kind of athing, or at least you know
minimum four or five times aweek, right.
But when I got into all thatdoing the school and working and
all that stuff, my meetingswere you meetings were two or
three weeks.
Fortunately I still worked atthat treatment center, so I got
to take the patients out tomeetings and get to drive the

(32:21):
van.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Stuff like that.
So that worked out really well.
Along the way I ended upgetting divorced, stayed out of
relationships for about 12 years.
During that time I was againstill working trying to about 12
years.
During that time I was againstill working trying to.
You know, my career was movingalong and decided I sat there

(32:45):
for about an application forgraduate school, sat on my
kitchen table for about a year.
I had never lived by myselfbefore ever and I was living by
myself and things were goingwell.
I was, you know, I was gettingmore.
I was getting comfortable withmyself.
I was getting comfortable withnot being in sick relationships
with women.
So you had about four yearssobriety right here.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
It was.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
No, it was.
It was about At the time beforeI went to graduate school.
I was about seven years, sevenyears.
It took me longer to getthrough school than most people.
It took me five years to getthat four year degree.
And then I took a year off andwas just working and I was still
working in the in the treatment, in the treatment field.
So I was working at thetreatment center.

(33:20):
I finally went back to schooland went to graduate school and
I'm so glad I did, cause it wasso much easier.
I mean, I tell people, you know,I always thought it was, oh,
graduate school, you know it, itwas fun.
The hard part was over, it wasfun.
It was fun because you weretaking things that you know,
that really allowed you todevelop thinking and you know

(33:40):
and process and things like that.
So I enjoyed that and I hadreally great instructors and I
ended up with what's called aclinical nurse, specialist in
psychiatric, mental health,nursing.
Oh, wow, right out of school Iwas offered two different jobs.
One was an academic it wasteaching and the other was a
director of nursing position.
I thought, wow, they'reoffering me this big management
position.
Come to realize that centersfor Medicare and Medicaid

(34:05):
require that if you're going tobe a director, that if you have
a program, a mental health or asubstance use program, they
require that person to have amaster's degree in psych, mental
health or an equivalent of fiveyears of experience and
management experience.
So I mean, those people, Iguess, were hard to come by and
that's probably why you knowthat position was offered and I
took it and from there, man, thetrajectory of my career just

(34:28):
skyrocketed and I can't tell you, more than once people were
like man, you're in over yourhead, you don't know what you're
doing, and I was like the dooropens, I'm going to walk through
it.
There's a reason for thishappening.
I worked with child andadolescent long-term care for a
number of years.

(34:49):
I worked as a prison nurse fora while.
I mean, don't ask me why.
I mean these things justpresented themselves and I was
like sure, why not?
You know, I'll do it.
One of the things interestingthings I found out about working
in adolescent long-termadolescent and then in prison
nursing is that a lot of theseguys in prison with the same
adolescent temperament that Ihad worked with.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
I've heard you share that before.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
They had just never.
They'd never grown up, they'dnever learned how to cope with
life, and so their their copingskills were very much, and I
started relating to some of thestuff I was learning along the
way in school about.
You know, we talk about wherewe were comfortable, but through
the experience of education andin the workplace there was just

(35:38):
so much I was learning aboutall this stuff, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Um.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
And again the door started opening and I had an
opportunity to take over aprogram in eastern Tennessee and
it was for the same company.
And I got up there Beautiful,I'm a mountains kind of guy, I
love the mountains, I love to gohiking.
I mean to me that's where I'mclose to God, just being in that
area.

(36:03):
And we got up there and I wastelling Larry earlier that my
wife know, my wife and I startedgetting about a year and a half
, two years.
He started getting cabin fever.
We had a beautiful house onalmost five acres.
Second wife, second wife,second wife, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(36:24):
Mostly because I thought thatwould please my mother because
she didn't talk to me for fiveyears after I got divorced my
first wife but you know that'shere but but my second wife and
and we're still married today um, how far sober were you when
you got married.
Oh, gosh um.
We got married in 20 2001, so88, so you had 12, 13 years yeah

(36:48):
.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Did she know that you were in the program, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
It was so funny.
We started dating and we weregoing out to places and I was
running into people.
How do you know all thesepeople?

Speaker 2 (36:58):
I'm not going to get into it.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah, she finally.
Well, she finally, you know,she knew.
One of the things I told herfrom the very start is that my
program is going to come first.
Amen, brother, absolutely.
I mean, I'm going to go tomeetings.
If you don't like it, tell menow, because you know that's not
going to change.
And she was very accepting ofthat.
I mean, she didn't seem to havea problem and still doesn't

(37:22):
have a problem with that.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
So you were in the Hills of Tennessee in the Hills
of Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
uh got cabin fever, decided she started sending my
resume out.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Mama started getting out of here.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, she sent it to a place she thought was in
Colorado and my mother had beenborn in Colorado.
I love Colorado.
It was a beautiful, beautifulstate and I was like, yeah, I
could live in Cal in Colorado.
It was a management.
Recruiters of Colorado was thecompany she sent it to and it
turns out that the job was herein California.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that until I goton the phone for my first phone

(37:54):
interview and started talking tothese people.
But I was so impressed by whatI was hearing from this
leadership team in Modesto atthe Stanislaus County Behavioral
Health Department that Ithought, oh, yeah, we might be
able to do that, and we did.
We ended up packing upeverything we had in a U-Haul

(38:14):
truck and I had my kids from myfirst marriage.
Three of the four of themactually came with us and helped
us move.
My wife and I had two littleones.
They were like one a year andtwo years.
They were born about a yearapart, so a year and two years.
They were born about a yearapart, so a year and two years.
And we drove all the way acrossthe country, ended up in
Riverbank, california, andstarted working for Stanislaus

(38:38):
Behavioral Health.
I was telling Larry, I came towork to be, I was hired to take
over as a director of nursing atthe facility there, but the
administrator position was openand one of the people from HR
said you want to apply for that?
I was like I'm not qualifiedfor that.
You know, I don't have theexperience.
And there were like 11 otherpeople that had applied.

(38:59):
All of them had more years ofexperience running facilities
and half of them had PhDs and Ithought you know, there's no way
.
And besides, the person that Iwas coming to replace, the
director of nursing, wassupposedly a shoo-in for this
position.
Right, I got the job and all ofa sudden I was her boss.
Right, she didn't like thatvery much, but again.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Oh well, god's got a plan.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, and you know, it's through the things that
I've learned in this programthat I've learned how to deal
with those types of situations.
You know, and I mean just, the.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Have you found that where God wants you, he's going
to put you?

Speaker 3 (39:32):
Oh, absolutely as a matter of fact.
This is funny because I workedfor Stanislaus Behavioral Health
about a year and a half.
They had an arrangement withTenant Corporation to work under
their license and accreditationand Tenant wanted out of that
and they and they eventually gotout of it and I was not going
to work for a for-profit mentalhealth and I did not want to
work for tenant corporation.

(39:53):
I didn't, I just didn't.
I mean I, I I'd sat in theirboard meetings and things
because we were, you know, wewere part of them technically
and I sat in their boardmeetings and I just didn't, I
just didn't like that, thatcorporate mindset, you know and

(40:13):
the things.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
That big difference.
I've worked for bigcorporations and I've worked for
private on it's.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
It's big, big difference.
So I made the decision I wasnot going to and they didn't.
And once that change happened,they didn't have, really the
County, really didn't have aplace for me anymore.
Um, so I started looking for ajob and and a job, and a
recruiter actually called me andasked if I'd be interested in
this facility up in Stockton itwas Catholic Healthcare West at
the time and it was a muchsmaller facility and the

(40:38):
position had been open about ayear.
And I put two and two togetherand said I don't know if this is
a good career move or not, youknow, but I wasn't really.
I mean, I was traveling thestate looking for, you know,
looking for another job andnothing was really coming along.
So I was like, okay, I'll do it.
I went to work there and theperson that I was reporting to
was the CEO of the biggerhospital, st Joe's Medical

(40:59):
Center, and I clearly remember,about two months in it was like
I felt like I was a departmentof their hospital and I wasn't
being.
I mean, I was a president ofthe hospital, right, and I
thought, you know, there camealong with that, there came some
respect and not so.
And I was sitting there in hisoffice one day and I said, don,

(41:21):
when do I get to be a realhospital president?
And he said well, when you makea significant contribution,
either monetary you knowfinancial or or otherwise to the
system.
And then he looked at me andsays you know, your ticket's not
punched yet.
And I, and immediately thethought was dude, you don't have
my ticket.
You know, to your point.

(41:41):
It's like you don't have myticket, trust me, because all
these, all these doors that haveopened that I've walked through
, they were there and it wasnothing that I did to really
deserve or bring this stuff on.
And it was funny because heretired about a year ago.
But about three years ago Iactually told him that story.
I did.
I said, dodd, I didn't tell youthis at the time, but I wanted

(42:04):
to let you know that you didn'thave my ticket.
The man upstairs has my ticketand that's the way it's been.
And over the years I've beenthere 18, almost 19 years now-
California Avenue.
Yeah, that's where.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
I had my surgeries.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
And I've been given a lot of autonomy to do a lot of
things and I've really gotteninvolved, very involved,
advocacy-wise, at the statelevel and even at the national
level.
I've been on the AmericanHospital Association Regional
Policy Board They've got nineregions across the country and I
was the mental health delegateon that for a number of years.
I'm on their NationalBehavioral Health Committee now

(42:47):
and also sit on the state's taskforce, the Behavioral Task
Force of the state of California.
So every opportunity I have andI won't keep my big mouth shut
about something if I feel likeit's like you guys don't
understand- how this works.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
That's why you're there.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Yeah, and it's largely the problems that we run
into in our society.
It's all about money.
It's all about money, it's allabout who your payer is.
And behavioral health is theredhead stepchild of health care
.
And you know, and I've alwaysequated behavioral health and
substance use disorders as onearea, because they're
inextricably linked you can'thave a substance use disorder

(43:24):
and it not be some relative to amental health condition of some
sort, depression, whatever, andvice versa.
So anyway, I mean, over theyears my career has really been
taking off.
Catholic Health Care West becameDignity Health and now it's a
much larger organization calledCommon Spirit Health, which is a
house of brands, organizationcalled Common Spirit Health,

(43:44):
which is a house of brands ofdignity, health, catholic health
initiatives in the Midwest,virginia, mason Franciscan in
the Northwest, and we've allcome together, centura in
Colorado.
We've all come together to formthis big company called Common
Spirit.
It's 150, some odd hospitals,and somehow I talked my way into
being the senior vice presidentfor behavioral health for the
whole system.

(44:05):
So, again, doors that haveopened and, and, and right now
I'm being given the opportunityto develop strategy for the
entire system, develop abehavioral health service line,
which is a, you know, I mean canI ask you a question?

Speaker 2 (44:17):
How much does this impact your thing?

Speaker 1 (44:21):
I mean, I know that when you say this he's talking
about.
I'm pointing at my favorite,but you're scattered pages.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
It's awesome.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Every single day, every single day, I run into
things that I'm just emotionallyup and down about, because I
run into resistance from peoplethat don't understand behavioral
health.
I'm in one of those situationsright now where we have five
regions.
I'm in one of those situationsright now where we have five
regions.
The region president is notconvinced that what we're trying

(44:52):
to put forth is worthy ofputting forth, and I've been
able to get commitment forfunding, like $4.5 million of
funding to be able to stand upthis call center model in
California which centralizes thewhole process so that emergency
departments, wherever a patientwalks in, that they'll have
access to a behavioral healthprofessional that will do the

(45:12):
right thing, that will get themassessed appropriately and
pointed in the right directionand do it much more quickly and
more efficiently than wecurrently do it, because right
now, average length to stay inan ED for a mental health
patient regardless is 12 hoursplus.
That's ridiculous.
I don't know about you.
I go into an emergency room.
I can't stand.
Stay in an ED for a mentalhealth patient regardless is 12
hours plus.
That's ridiculous.
I don't know about you.
I go into an emergency room.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
I can't stand being in a room for two or three hours
.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Five minutes I want to run.
Imagine if your first entryinto exposure into a mental
health system is you're incrisis, you end up in an ED.
You get thrown in a corner,ignored and then maybe locked up
like you're almost going tojail.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Explain.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
ED Am I missing it.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Emergency department.
Emergency department Okay.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Yeah, and I mean, if that's your first exposure, no
wonder we can't, people can't.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
And they go back out.
It's easier to survive outthere.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
It's good you know either that or they get
discharged and it's good luck toyou.
You know that's why our streets?

Speaker 2 (46:02):
are full, well, if you're an alcoholic, my type.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
It's not only that, it's the mental health.
Here's the thing and, Paul, youcan correct me if I'm wrong on
this, but there's a lot ofpeople on the street that don't
have abuse problems right, yeahright, they're just mentally
sick.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
There's a lot of people that have mental health
issues that were brought aboutby our drug and alcohol issues.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
So you've got all that to decipher and they're out
there.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
A lot of veterans which I'm kind of partial to.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Oh, yeah, yeah, it is the prevalence of serious
mental illness.
I'm talking about bipolardisorders, schizophrenia, things
like that.
It's less than it's about 2% to3% of the population in general
.
Okay, they cost our healthsystem about 80.
They contribute about 80% ofthe cost of our health system
about 80 per day.
They, they, they contributeabout 80% of the cost of our
system, and and and, and thoseare the people that are out on

(46:52):
the street, homeless, that arelike you say.
They may or may not have asubstance use disorder.
They do.
They're trying to self-medicate, right, right, and, and I have
worked, worked with that, andI've been, you know, I've worked
in an acute, as an acutepsychiatric nurse for a lot of
years and started programs hereand there and this, and that I
mean talk about this programgiving you the ability to have

(47:13):
compassion for other people andfor me it's like, you know, I
remember where I was 30 some oddyears ago and I think about you
know I almost got thrown awayand I think about you know who?
who else are we throwing awayout there and and it is.
And and you know I always tellmy colleagues is if this was

(47:33):
your brother, brother, sister,you know, a family member, would
you?
And sometimes their answer isyes, because they were.
You know they were such a drainon their life that you know
it's hard and it's yeah, I mean,didn't you said, paul, what I
was?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
You went from living on the streets.
I mean you have, in yourposition right now, you have two
different experiences.
You have the experience of thepeople you're helping and you
have the educational experienceand the admin experience.
I mean what you have is atrifold.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
He has everything Trifold.
That's what I got from him.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
And you said it just perfectly.
I almost got thrown away.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
But I can't tell you how many people were telling me
the right things Right, you know, or they had the right answers,
but you haven't lived what Ilived.
And when I finally sat downwith Jay, you know yeah, but,
Paul, it took something for you.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
It took your moment of clarity for you not to be
allowed to be thrown away too.
I mean, when you sat in that AAmeeting and you heard that guy
speaking with the filters stuckin his teeth, you had that
moment of clarity to go.
Yes, I got to go this otherdirection.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
You know, I think the issue was I was in so much pain
, I was in so much mental pain,I believe, on Saturday morning
there was a young man who sharedthat alcoholics and humans in
general, we move with the speedof pain and I believe I've said
that on this podcast many timeshe actually said it.
I said it, you dork yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
I was getting to that point, you dork, I know.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
That's why I got a lot of Rob-isms.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Paul's been around me for 14 years now.
He knows about a lot ofRob-isms and you're another
person that I've gotteninspiration from.
I clearly remember you walkinginto that meeting when the
Saturday morning was over nextto the insurance place and
telling me that you had cancerand I was just like.
I was devastated.
I was like is he going to bearound a year or two from now?
I'm glad, is he going to bearound a year or two from now?
And then when I saw you comeback and I heard what you had

(49:29):
gone through and the fact, theone thing I clearly remember you
telling me is that I'm going totake this experience and I'm
going to use it to help otherpeople, and you didn't say if.
You said when I come through it, and I was like that's faith,
brother.
I mean that is just absolute.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
And I get calls from my for my, uh, my radiation dr
gy, when you know, hey, rob, Igotta okay.
He always gives my phone numberout to people who want to yeah
I want to know so, paul, on yourand your recovery.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
So you never went through a rehab, you never went
through anything like that youwalked right in walked right in,
yeah, and, and I and I probablyshould have because, knowing
what I know now, um, it wasprobably medically dangerous
because I I was when, at myfinest, I was drinking a fifth
of liquor and a case of beerevery day.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a lot of alcohol yeah,
yeah, that's when I finished,that's where I was at, yeah, so
so going forward, what I mean?
If there's somebody on thestreets and you're living in
that street, looking, looking atthat, give some advice to
somebody.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
I can't give advice.
I can share my experience andone of the things I've learned
over the years is that I knowfor me and many people I've
worked with is that you're notready until you're ready.
You're not ready until you'reready Right, and to try and
convince somebody, I mean thebig book and I really love the

(50:50):
stories about how the wholeprogram started, about one
alcoholic helping another andBill Wilson coming to realize
the spiritual component of thisthing and all that.
But you stop and think aboutall the people that they tried
to help that didn't make it.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, you don't hear about those as much right.
You don't, and it's a sad truth, right.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
What is it?
Something that we always talkabout?
We joke kind of because it's sofrustrating.
But Paul many times on thispodcast because we try to find
out what started this wholething was his friend whose son
committed suicide.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
No, no, no, no, he overdosed he overdosed and
Larry's trying to.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
the father's just kicking himself and Larry's
trying to break down the addict,the alcoholic, and help them
understand.
But I'm trying to come up withwhich.
You know, there's not a certainword when you see someone who
really needs this and they'realmost there.
I mean, if there spray we coulddevelop, they could.
It's called incomprehensible tomore.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
you know, you know you can cure it, and that would
give them that, that a finalkick before they had to go.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
You know, just to get , but you can't until they're in
enough pain.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Right, and when I think that's, when I hear people
say well, and I say it all thetime too they're not going to be
right.
What's sad is how people willgo all the way to the, to the,
to the end, and never be readyright they'll just die.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
But they were never ready.
But then there are some peoplethat come in and the bottom came
up and hit them.
They didn't have theexperiences that we did.
They didn't get to where yourbody's not processing.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
But it goes right back to what you said.
You know, it took one click forme, right for my moment of
clarity to come in it.
It took, it took some guy withI mean, do you I could be wrong,
but it took a guy with filtersin his teeth to to for you to
kind of go, oh shit, I don't,you know.
Or the old man screaming out ofthe trailer going am I going to
be there, right, these theselittle things, and it's you know

(52:41):
, and that's where seeds thatgot planted get watered.
And I want to know.
I asked more about that andsomebody said here just a while
back, you know, somebody came in, they went back out drinking.
I want to know why, right, why?
What were you thinking?

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Well, it's usually if they had some.
Let's ask Paul this, becausehe's been.
What are you 35 years now?

Speaker 3 (53:01):
37.
So.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Kim and Scott are right at the same.
For me, at 14, every time Iheard someone who's had okay,
they did the work.
They've had a spiritual,recognize results and steps.
Life got good.
Usually they quit doing the bigthree, they quit talking to
their higher power, coming tomeetings, fellowshipping,
working with others.
You quit, you start doing thosethings and then eventually this

(53:23):
sounds good what do you?
What have you?

Speaker 3 (53:24):
seen.
You know this.
That's the thing that reallyscared me when COVID came along
and I heard all these people I'mnot doing a Zoom meeting and
I'm like, what happened to goingto any lengths?
Right, what happened to beingwilling to go to any lengths?
I get it.
There were some people that alsoand I'm one of those we were
gathering at Jimmy's house inperson, outdoors, you know, yeah
, and having worked in healthcare, I have a lot of respect

(53:46):
for.
You know, I saw a lot of mycolleagues, nurses, that had to
work and be traumatized by goingto work and dealing with death
every single day, Massive death.
It's like combat zone death andpeople being so hard-headed
that it was like, you know, theylisten to and they're
influenced by just garbagethat's coming across the

(54:07):
television telling them what tobelieve and what to think.
And you know, and I'm working,I'm sitting there talking to
these doctors are going well, I,you know, like the vaccine is,
I haven't seen anybody grow twoheads yet data through, facts
that the people that are dying,that are coming to the hospital,

(54:28):
are people that absolutely,just absolutely refuse to accept
the fact that, yes, this is akiller disease that is killing
people left and right and no,I'm not going to get that back.
Those were the people that weredying in our hospitals for the
longest time.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
And at this time, I'm going through cancer at the
same time, you know which was?

Speaker 1 (54:40):
And you're having to go into those hospitals.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Yeah, and it's and it was just.
I mean, to me it was like theworld got turned upside down.
But I understand that that'smass hysteria, that's you know
all this other stuff that playsinto this, but to me it was, and
this is the thing.
Like to your point, no matterwhat's going on, anytime,
anywhere, that was the thingthat my sponsor kept.
Are you willing to go to anylengths to get this?

(55:03):
Is the pain bad enough?
Likes to get this.
Is the pain bad enough?
The difference between me andsomebody that doesn't make it is
I made a decision that I didn'twant to be in that pain and,
largely because I'm just a wuss,I don't like pain, I hate it
and having to think that I'mjust going to go on living like
that, over and over, day afterday after day, like Groundhog

(55:23):
Day.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
But you've never left .
You've came into the rooms andlike I heard you share Saturday
morning because Scott wassitting across from you guys
came in at 88, but you've neverlike because you shared with the
gentleman that was chairing themeeting.
A good friend of mine sponsoredme for a little bit because he
had six more months.
He was six months ahead of mebut he went a different route
and he just left the meetingsand went to church, got drunk

(55:44):
got drunk After 20 years.
After 14 years or 13 years.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
I don't get that To me to me.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
But Paul shared he never left.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Well the thing is that what was drilled in my head
in the very beginning was thatI was an alcoholic and I had to
accept that fact, and the wholething about powerlessness was
that I could never understandwhy I couldn't stop.
It was like what's going onwith me?
The people around me, you guys,have figured it out and you've
stopped drinking For some reason.

(56:13):
I can't, I don't.
I can't explain it.
I don't know what it I.
This was explained to me by anurse that I worked with along
the way.
She used to describe this thisis an obsession of the mind and
an allergy of the body to repeatthe experience of intoxication
until we're dead and that wasthe best explanation I've ever
heard.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
She took the doctor's opinion and just came.
Yeah, Beautiful.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
And that was it.
It was an obsession of the mindand an allergy of the body to
do just that and I couldn'tbreak it.
And somehow, you know, when I'dcome to meetings, it was like
well, the answer's here.
I just can't figure out how toget it.
But but that's why that's oneof the reasons why I kept coming
back was was it I?
I was listening, I heard enoughof of okay, I know this can

(56:59):
happen, will it happen?
I clearly remember sitting in ameeting at about six months
sober, coming to the realizationthat obsession had been lifted.
Wow, took you that long, ittook me that long.
You fought.
Yeah, because I don't know ifit's a character I don't want to
say character, but just, all ofus have so many different

(57:22):
experiences, the way that we'reraised.
The only things that I know fora fact are the things that I
have experienced myself.
Other than that, it's a belief,it's an opinion.
If I'm hearing it from you, I'mtrusting that what you're
telling me is the truth.
I never trusted anybody to tellme the truth about anything,
but when I came to meetings andI started listening, I knew you

(57:44):
were telling me the truth,because you were telling my
story.
Right when I came to meetingsand I started listening, I knew
you were telling me the truth,because you were telling my
story Right right.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
You know Again, why would you hear that guy across
the room he might share abouthis chicken?

Speaker 1 (57:53):
if it wasn't, you ain't got to share that.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
That shit went to the grave for some of us.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, it's funny.
I went on a call yesterday Iwas telling you this guy was, he
was saying some stuff, and thenI went right back to Edward
saying some stuff.
He's like, yeah, yeah, that'sabout right.
Yeah, well, we've all beenthere, right?
You know, I hear people saythis now the final final.
You know, I had a final finalbefore I went up to the room,
you know, before all theconference or something, I ain't
even had a final final,motherfucker my final, final

(58:19):
went on all night long.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
It went on for about 12 years.
My final, final day, yeah,final final.
Yeah, paul, I go ahead.
I was gonna say you know peopletalk about the first drink, I,
I, I laugh and say I couldn'tfigure out how to take the last
drink rest for sure.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
No, I could not.
I had to be forced to take thatlast drink.
Right, I had to do on thelibrium.
I had to be forced to take it.
I, I, I, yeah, I would havewent on drinking.
I would have went on, I wouldbe dead.
I could, because I would havebeen dead by now.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
I couldn't, because my body stopped processing
liquor.
So I was at a crossroads.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
I was fighting through it, I was just going to
continue until I was dead, untilmy moment of clarity hit me,
you know, in the kitchen downhere, and I was like nope, nope,
I'm done.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
And then the second one.
My second one about 28 dayslater In Chris's office.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Yeah, about 20 days later is when, 28 days, my
obsession got lifted about day20 of my In Maynard's.
I literally felt it leave mybody.
I literally was sitting inChris's office.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
And mine was on my ass in my hallway crying when I
told my sister I got analcoholic.
However, I still had to dealwith the isms Right.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Those came a little later.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
I'm still dealing with those.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I don't think they leave Step 10 helps us with that
one.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Alright, paul.
Anything else you want to add?
No, man, I really appreciateyou having me.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I love your story.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Because the young lady who's almost a doctor.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Dr Berry.
We talked about that.
I'm calling her Dr Berry, asfar as I'm concerned.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Yeah, she's Dr Berry, but her having her because
she's got what knowledge likePaul does.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
I'd love to have the two of them back together.
I was thinking the whole time,wouldn't that be something?
Yeah, I'd love to have you.
We had her on once, paul, rightbefore she was in the zoo.
I so, yeah, I spoke to herabout six weeks ago and she was
six weeks from getting hergraduation, her doctorate, so I
think she's done.
Now I'm going to reach out toher.

(01:00:11):
Yeah, I'd love to get that backin.
We got some great shows gettingready to start coming here.
We're going to talk about itnext week.
You guys will hear a little bitabout what's getting ready to
come on.
Paul's going to come back andwe're going to work through a
topic together.
Uh, we got a listener, uh, mrheart, and from denver he's
anonymity that shit, I didn't Isaid, mr heart, I dropped his

(01:00:32):
name last time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's all right.
Sorry jim scurried you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
He, uh, he's been sending us some emails.
He's actually going to comedown.
He's excited.
We're going to talk about thisnext week, anyways, I need you
uh thanks for joining us.
We'll be back, we'll be back.
We'll be back.
There we go.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
No closing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
It's there.
Thank you for joining us today.
We hope you learned somethingtoday that will help you If you
did not come back next week, andwe'll try again.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
If you like what we heard, give us a five-star
review.
If you don't like what youheard, kiss my ass.
I can't say that, can you?
Anyway, if you don't like whatyou heard, go ahead and tell us
that too.
We'll see what we can improve.
We probably won't changenothing, but do it anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Thanks, rob.
Come back next week andhopefully something will be
different and something willsink in.
Take care, this has beenRecovery Unfiltered.
Thank you.