Sober Out Loud: Finding Freedom Through Faith and Fellowship

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time together
.
Father, we thank you for Kat.
We thank you for the travelthat she did, that you got her
safely.
Father.
We ask that you sit with us.
Father, you open our hearts andyou open our minds as we listen
to Kat's story.
Father, let her story reachthat one soul that we're trying
to reach.
Let this be a willing.
Let somebody's heart be willing.
After hearing this story,father, we ask that you sit with

(00:41):
us and you and you help us andyou help that one soul.
Father, we pray this in yourname amen.
Let's go to work.
What You're going to?
Put that mic here.
Stop flipping me off.
We just prayed you.
Dick Hi Robert, I like that.
Thank you for not swallowing onthe mic.
Dick Hi Larry.
We just got done winning afootball game, did we?

(01:04):
We?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
did.
But the best part was larryrestraint, what we talked about,
restraint of pen and tongue,which is a great aa slogan, and
you, the person least likely todo that.
I'm proud of you.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
You know what I'm not gonna lie by and not say I'm
not still a little stirred up.
I really I was talking to katieon the way home and I'm like I
you know what.
I love that I'm able to hold mymouth right.
I'm getting better at it, muchbetter Right, and I recognized
my surroundings very quickly andrecognize that we're around a
bunch of kids.
It's a church league.

(01:36):
It's a church league, we'rearound a bunch of kids and I,
literally, as my brain startedto click to the bad side, I just
turned around and walked away.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
You know what I was doing?
What, as I was about five feetfrom him and he was talking to
you, I was picking up the doubleleg on the ground reverse.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
You had it visioned already.
He was gone.
You had it visioned, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
You were waiting.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
You were just plotting.
I love folding clothes withpeople.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
I was folding clothes .
That was literally.
Yeah, that was.
It was powerful for me.
I'm still a little stirred up.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
That's a spiritual experience.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
It was.
It was you know what.
I'm going to bring her in first.
You know what?
We started this in July 7th of2024, and I didn't know how to
do social media.
I didn't have anything, Ididn't have an idea clue what I
was doing, but I started readingthrough, you know, instagram,
facebook, and going through allthe sober sites and this and
that, and I come across this,this lady, and she's first off,

(02:34):
her blonde and beautiful.
She's gorgeous, and I startedreading some of her story and
she started talking about beingsober, out loud, and it was one
of the first ones that I'd seenever spoken that way.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
And I love it.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
I absolutely love it and I so I started reaching out
to her on a DM trying to.
I didn't know.
And I was just trying to reachout Cause I wanted, I wanted you
to come on this podcast and andjust time went by and time went
by and then our friend, jimHart, that was just on here, got
her to listen and we are soblessed to have you here, kat.

(03:06):
Thank you and welcome in to behere, thank you, thank you.
This is, like I said, it's kindof one of those pinnacles for
me and I'm so happy to have youhere.
Actually, I thought I wasgetting catfished until I saw
you last night.
I'm not.
I'm not gonna lie, rob don'tknow what catfished is.
Mary, will you explain?
Will you please explain that toour friend over there?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
it's like when somebody shows up and they're
supposed to be attractive.
And they show up and they'rethey look like you.
They're not.
We talked about that with.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Stephanie.
Like Stephanie said somethingabout filters.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
And that's right.
You were worried that I wasgoing to be filtered I.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
You know what.
Here's the thing she doesn'twear a lot of makeup, so you
weren't hiding behind makeup.
I can promise you that.
So, but yeah, no, it was just I.
So when Jim got you, we got intouch and we started working
through it.
You've been a pleasure to getto know and I'm so excited.
I've listened to your story.
I've read some stuff on withabout you and you got an amazing
story.
I love what you do.
We're going to talk about thata little bit later on, for you

(04:00):
know everything you do for yourservices and everything and how
you stay involved, but we'regoing to get into your story.
Cool, we want to get throughthat and Rob and I will
intervene and question wheneverwe want, but we pretty much let
you shut up.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Whenever we want.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Whenever we want, it is our show.
Yeah, it is our show.
Where?

Speaker 2 (04:16):
do you want to start, kat?
I want to start with Mary'sDolly Parton koozie Is that and
koozie is that dolly, as weshould.
Oh, my goodness, I need that.
That's amazing.
Um man, I love, I love me somedolly.
Um, okay, so, uh, we'll startat the beginning.
My name is um katherine.

(04:36):
I was.
My sobriety date is November1st 2015.
I really didn't want to besober this long.
I'll be honest about that.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
You had a plan, I did .
I'm going to stay sober oneyear.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
No, it was 30 days.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh, no shit, it was 30 days.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I needed to get the heat off my back.
I needed my family to trust meagain.
Pretty common, isn't it?
Yeah, it was 30 days I neededto get the heat off my back.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
I needed my family to trust me again.
Pretty common, isn't it?
Yeah, it's pretty common.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Want your back to stop hurting.
Right right, Get her off yourback.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Get them off your back.
Yeah, and they say it prettyoften in Southern California.
I'm based out of Orange County,but we have incredible recovery
down there and they say thislike you caught alcoholism in
the rooms and I'm forevergrateful for that, because I

(05:39):
really didn't.
I didn't want this to be mything, you know, like I really
anticipated a different futurefor myself.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Explain that a little bit though.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
I mean you just we're going to get clean, and then
Well, you know I, so you knowwhen I think about when I was
younger, I never really I'vealways been incredibly driven,
very ambitious.
You know, like the buildingblocks of the human that I am
today, or have always been there.
Know, like the building blocksof the human that I am today or
have always been there, right,but some of the things that I

(06:07):
remember most fondly was likethis overwhelming feeling of
like sadness and not feelinglike I belonged and Were you an
only child?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
No, no, okay, I know she's got brothers, I do.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I have one brother.
He's four years older, but bothof my parents were incredibly
hardworking.
They both worked full time.
Um, you know, my mom went toschool to get her master's when
I was little.
So you know, we, we were athome with each other a lot, you
know, and, um, I'm supergrateful for my family.

(06:40):
They taught me the importanceof hard work, right, and I think
that's so lacking nowadays.
Yeah, but you know, I'm I justremember, you know never feeling
okay and just, I mean it was,it's weird, and I wasn't able to
identify these feelings until Igot in to, you know, a 12 step
room and under, like I was ableto put verbiage around it

(07:01):
because I listened to you guysand I was like, first of all,
this is pretty common betweenalcoholics and addicts this
restlessness, irritability anddiscontent.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
I did not realize that until I was in the rooms
for a little while and I kepthearing that repeated.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
I kept hearing that repeated, uncomfortable in your
own sleep.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yes, and then I was like I was.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I didn't realize.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
I was.
And then I was like I was.
Yeah, I didn't realize I was.
And then, when I started goingback on some of the times, and
yes, I was extremelyuncomfortable, yeah, Extremely
yeah, but I mean, I think wedon't identify it as that I just
was like, I just don't want tofeel me.
Right.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
And you know, started at a young age being able to
manipulate my own feelings andyou know it started, you know,
with being or I would spend alot of time with animals.
Animals have always been like avery comforting thing for me.
I would be.
I grew up in Colorado so I wouldbe out in the fields, you know
looking for snakes and diggingfor lizards and I didn't wear

(07:59):
shoes till I was like seven forreal and just had this wild hair
, super like little toe headgirl.
And you know I spent a lot oftime alone and you know I found
solace in you know animals andyou know being in nature, so
it's funny that you know that'sstill one of my tools today for
recovery is you know, I hikewith my dogs almost every day.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Can I ask you a question?
Yeah, there's something abouthorses.
Yeah, about their heartbeat.
Would you please explain that?
Of course, of course, I didn'tknow this, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
So I've also.
You know, when you have likelittle kids, you save all their
artwork, or maybe so all of myartwork is horse drawings.
Like, I've been obsessed withhorses and my mom taught at a
high school.
One of her students taughtlessons and so they, every
Saturday morning I would go rideand I've just always loved
horses.
And, um, you know, it's sointeresting when you, when you

(08:54):
get, you know, in your thirtiesand forties and you start to
heal, we go back to the things.
And so, about five years ago,um, I was invited down to these
stables.
My friend was volunteering atthis horse rescue and I've
always known that I love horses,but I didn't really know
exactly why, and so I started tostudy them, and now I take my

(09:16):
clients several times a week.
But so, essentially, horseshave not been given super sharp
teeth or claws to fightsomething off right, but what
God did give them was insaneinstincts and they have the
ability to feel vibrations.
And so a horse can actually feelyour heart beating from 100

(09:37):
yards away.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
That's almost an entire I mean, it is a football
field right, it's 90,technically 90 yards.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
And then you know, because they have to be able to
react if they're going, becausethey're so massive, they're prey
animals and you know they canalso turn their ears 180 degrees
.
They can see 300 degrees withtheir eyes they're the biggest
eyes of land mammals and youknow they react 0.03 seconds, as

(10:04):
how long it takes them to reactto something that's behind them
, which is why you have to bevery careful when you're.
You know we never want to comeup on a horse anyways.
You know you walk next to ahorse and within 90 seconds your
heartbeat is in sync withtheirs and they're so
intelligent that they know.
You know that if your heart isbeating too fast, they lower

(10:25):
their heartbeat to lower yours,and so they're like this
energetic Xanax you know, and Ialways I don't share this with
my clients until after, becauseI'm like, just take a mental
note of how you feel now, right,and you know there is so much
that happens with that we're noteven paying attention to.
You know, like our nervoussystems are just up down, up

(10:46):
down and we just automaticallywant to, you know, reach for the
pill or the potion, and this isa way to be like, hold on, like
let's look at what aboutsunlight?
What about, you know, taking awalk, moving our bodies, being
around, something this amazing.
And so I always encourage myclients to find a place, like
the stables, you know, find aplace.
I.
Another place that I can reallykind of disconnect is the

(11:09):
driving range.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
I don't know why, but it's this mind body connection,
you know if you're thinkingabout anything else besides the
club in your hand.
You're probably it will show Iused to get that way riding my
bike.
That's what riding my bike waswhen I got that solace.
I never liked riding in a bigpack, I loved riding by myself.
That's where I got that piecefrom.
That's when I got.
I grew up on horses.
I grew up riding.
Yeah.
Well, I grew up here inWaterford but we had horses all

(11:45):
of our lives and there washorses that my mom couldn't get
on.
She was petrified of horses.
We had one named.
Smokey that I know joe, he couldnot get.
My mom could not get on joebecause my mom was petrified of
joe.
Anybody else could get on him,anybody but my mom.
For summer he was a big oneright and my mom was petrified
of every time my mom would tryto get on him.
Joe would just kick her rightback off, didn't want her
anywhere near him.
Yeah, and it was.
Yeah, they're very instinctive,very yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Well, and everybody says it just seems backwards to
use such, you know, 1800 poundanimals as therapy animals.
But when you're standing nextto them, you know there is this
respect that you have forwanting to just be present, and
they will reflect who you are.
They are mirrors, and so,rather than act I mean act crazy

(12:24):
many of us start to control ourbreath when we don't even
really realize it.
And you know, we just have thisexperience, that that you know,
for me you really have to takesomebody out of their you know
current element to be like cometry this Like, and then they're
like holy cow, I feel amazing,like, and I was like and you're
sober, you have to keep yoursobriety date.

(12:46):
That's what I'm going to get atyeah yeah, so that's like one
of the coolest things I get todo today.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Did you ever ride or do you?
No, I rode.
Did you ride too?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
And then when I started at this horse rescue,
she told me to start getting onthe back of them again and she
teaches English writing and Idon't really care for English
writing.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
That's a different saddle too, isn't?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
it, yeah, different saddle, you know it is.
It's so hard You're basicallycontrolling the horse with with
your thighs and it's like a lotof you know posting is, and it
was just so frustrating andevery Saturday I would go and I
would just, you know, go aroundthe ring and I would choose,
like it's these incremental,like I couldn't tell that I was

(13:31):
getting better.
And I'm not that kind of girl Iwant, I want instant
gratification, yeah, and I alsowant you know, like that's why I
love lifting weights is becauseI can physically see one, the
results too.
You know I'm putting on 45s andthen next week I'm going to add
15.
And you know it's this abilityto Seek progression yeah totally
, totally.
So it's been challenging.

(13:52):
I just, you know, had I wasworking with my sponsor on it.
She said do you think thatmaybe you don't like it because
you're not good at it?
I said yes, but listen, I'mgiving.
I gave myself seven weeks and II was crying before I got there
like with anxiety and I justdidn't want to do it anymore and

(14:13):
it was like this is my safeplace, Like I, I just feel like
I've given it a good try.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Were you getting resentment against the horse?

Speaker 2 (14:21):
No, or the actual process.
It was the process and I waslike I don don't fucking want to
do right, like I just give me adamn horn saddle.
Yes yeah, we joke all the timeum, you know, and but take these
stupid stretchy pants too right, right, the boots, the, the
freaking helmet, all of it.
None of it feels normal.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
You know, like I just if you grew up on a western
saddle.
That's completely differentyeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Completely different, yeah, yeah.
So, um, you know, horses andgolf has been something that I
was able to get back to when Igot sober and, um, you know, it
wasn't an.
Animals are always you knowanimals are a big part of my
story.
I love um, I love nature, Ilove just being.
You know, I think that it'sincredibly healing.
But no matter how much I wouldbe in nature, you know, I

(15:10):
remember being like high onhikes, hung over on hikes hoping
that you know, like, oh, like,isn't this going to fix me?
And it just, it never did.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, no.
So yeah, I found alcohol at 13,.
Just really, at a friend'sbrother's party.
He let us like kind of crashhis keg party and he I don't
know if you guys had likesibling or best friends and
their siblings you have a goodcrush on their sibling, like

(15:42):
their older sister.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
My sister yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Sorry, let me rephrase that my sister's
friends back shut up.
Rob, that was shut up.
That was not on your four-step.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
That was the most waterford thing I've heard,
right shut up what in the cousinkissing.
Where am I?

Speaker 1 (16:00):
well, you are in waterford, welcome home.
Well, lauren, waterford,welcome home.
Yeah, my sister had some prettyfriends.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Okay, okay, yes.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
My sister went to school with Larry.
Okay, she was older, so I hadolder girls to look at.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
It was nice His sister and me ran around
together.
Well, this whole group of usall ran around together.
She was shorter than Rob.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
She's 4'11".

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, she's a little bitty thing.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
But man she.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
She was shorter than rob.
She's 4, 11.
Yeah, oh my, she's a littlebitty thing yeah, but man, she
had an attitude that was aboutyeah, eight foot tall, yeah,
yeah, small, but mighty portage,yeah, anyways.
So, um, yeah, it was.
You know I was, I was 13 he was16.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
You got a kiss.
Oh, I did, I did.
If you jump in front of herstory again, I'm gonna throw
this bottle this bottle at you,but it's a good.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
That was the amazing like the night was, I mean, even
if there was no alcoholinvolved and I just kissed my
childhood crush what?
That is the best night of mylife, right?

Speaker 3 (16:57):
At 13?
.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yes, yes, and I had been crushing on that guy for
years.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Game over.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I had been crushing on that guy for years,
game over, yeah, but then hegave us some of the beer and we
got to feel the.
I finally got to feel okay inmy own skin for the first time,
was it?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
immediate yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
And it was, and I knew like my parents had alcohol
in the house, they would haveparties.
I didn't really see anyonedrunk, but I knew that it was
like fun, right, it just lookedfun.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
I recognize, like people that I friends of my
dad's.
They would get happy right.
They were normally assholes,but when they would start
drinking they'd get happy, and Irecognize that right away.
That was something I learnedvery, very young.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
I mean, I was just trying to get happy and impress
her older brother.
I didn't really realize that itwas going to be a numbing agent
for all of the things that Ihad been running from or wanting
to run from for so many years.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
So as the night progresses, I keep drinking.
I definitely get sick.
The other girls that were withget sick, but somehow throughout
the night I end up kissing herbrother.
And I just remember he did notwant my brother to find out
because my brother was like fouryears.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Oh boy.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
He was two years older than him, or like a year
older.
My brother was a senior andhe's like dude, your brother
would kill me.
And I was like he'll never findout.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
When did he find out?

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Just now, no, yeah, yeah, I don't think I didn't.
I didn't yeah, because then youknow he, his name was Kyle.
Kyle fell away from the focalpoint.
Alcohol became like my new love.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
King Justice.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, and it just seemed like so amazing.
And then I had access to itbecause my family had it.
You know, I'd be like mixing.
I remember one night we were atmy other girlfriend's house and
we mixed all of the liquors, sotequila vodka, oh God.
We even put some Old English 40in there, old English 800.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Sponsored by liquor.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
It was like warm.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
I just remember throwing up, she had this huge
brick wall that like there was amajor highway behind it.
I just throwing up my brainsand, um, you know, we did it
again the next morning like, um,it just it's like no
consequences.
No, and it was it was fun, likeI never ever felt bad about it,

(19:36):
like that was what was what wascrazy.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
It was like what do you?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
mean, this is, this is the new, like preset is it
say?

Speaker 1 (19:42):
isn't it funny now that we look back on that and
realize, shit, I was analcoholic.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Then immediately new you hear the story, you've been
with that story, say four people.
Three of them will say andafter that, the vomiting, I'm,
I'm not doing that again.
Right, but then the alcoholicman was not the greatest.
Yeah, I can't wait to do thatagain for me.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
I was just, everybody else was headaches and
everything else.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
I I was who I wanted to be.
I was fucking ready to go againFor more of what I wanted to be
.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
I knew I had a problem when everybody else was
asleep and I was still lookingfor alcohol that was in high
school or dry goods, dry goods.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Here we go.
When did those come into?

Speaker 1 (20:16):
your story.
Rob learned a new word lastnight from Kat.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
When About 14, 15.
No shit, yeah Wait because fromhere you grew up here.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
I grew up in Oakdale, which is right, basically
Waterford.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oakdale in the 80s, cocaine was like everywhere.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, you could buy it at the drugstore.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, he was low rent .
I got hooked on the cocaineearly I'm gutter, gutter Do you
shoot it no, snort it.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, always yeah, never smoke, no why.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
I like the burn, I like I like the drain, I like
the whole experience.
I like to blow my head Right.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, you know you know what's crazy is, even in
sobriety I like I will do hot,spicy food.
Oh yeah, plunging for the shock.

(21:10):
So they say like the dopaminehit after a cold plunge is like
a line of Coke.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's like shitty Coke , though it's like what the kids
use these days.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
You know, that's funny, you say it that way.
I didn't even think about that,but that probably is that well,
no, that original shock is likethat original shot.
Original snort right.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
It's that.
But then what people don'tunderstand is you sit in this
freezing cold water and you, youshock your body, but the actual
dopamine starts to rush aboutfive minutes after and this is
why you do not jump in like thehot tub or even like a hot
shower.
Is you want your body tonaturally, you know, warm itself

(21:48):
up, Like that's where you getthe real effects?
Yeah, so I mean, it all depends.
Like some people do it forinflammation, Some people do it
for you know, if they want tojust increase circulation, and
that you know.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
I've heard Joe talk about it it's for mental
training, totally Mentaltraining.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I mean, if you want to see how tough you are, go sit
.
I mean, and.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
I hate colds.
Well, it's just taking that out, right yeah.
Getting yourself into adifferent mindset, right yeah.
Not thinking of the pain, notthinking, just getting into a
different spot.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Right and not thinking about the pain that
you're in at that moment.
Yeah, walking through fear.
Right, getting into a differentsituation.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, I've heard nothing but great stuff about it
.
Yeah, I just have to, you know,do it.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I did it during the wintertime.
This last winter Everybody kepttelling me with my back and
everything going on with it.
You asked me about that lastnight.
So a few times during thewintertime I would go out there
and sit in the you know 42degrees.
I'd go out there and sit on theAcapulco deck you know for and
try to get it, get it, but it'snot like you guys getting in at
32 degrees or 34 degrees 30,it's a little bit different.

(22:51):
Well, I guess it wasn't too faroff because it was 42 when I'd
get into it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, this is.
The difference, though, is thatthe water has to be circulating
.
So, yeah, when your body, likeour bodies, are so intelligent
that they almost create thisbarrier around it.
So when people get into a icebath that doesn't have jets like
a hot tub and the water isn'tmoving, essentially what happens

(23:16):
is your body will create alittle barrier around it to keep
itself warm right, okay, yeah,and so you either have to yeah
you either have to constantly bemoving your body or you get in
water that's circulating, yeah Idid not know that either.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, we're learning all kinds of shit from cat.
I'll tell you what powder good.
What did she say?
Dry powder, what no?

Speaker 3 (23:37):
dry goods we got to explain, because all of our
listeners know when I talk aboutpowdered accelerants, that's
cocaine or meth.
Right Now.
Dry goods is also, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Kat said that last night at the meeting Rob and I
both kind of looked at eachother.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
I knew she meant there's a new one.
Pillow fight.
Stop it, sorry.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
What's the pillow fight.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
This guy, kat, do not get, don't, don't, don't get
him started.
He's a child, he's a child.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Sometimes he's a child.
It was from the last podcast,you mean you're talking about
his height or no.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
We're talking about sororities, and he started
talking about pillow fights in asorority he's a child.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Got it okay, got it anyways, okay so.
So 13 kissed him, yeah, yeah andthen you know it just
progressed and you don't totallyrecognize it during the time,
but I just I loved it and I'vealways been kind of like a wild
child.
So I just thought, you know,this is, this is like part of my
pattern.

(24:34):
But you know, another thingthat I didn't totally recognize
until I came into the rooms ofAlcoholics Anonymous is just my
innate almost ability to createa double life.
And so you know I've had this,you know I was, I've always been

(24:54):
pretty smart and so I've beenin like like AP classes.
I would be in tons ofextracurricular.
I was the varsity captain of mycheer team all four years in
high school and we were likegnarly like competitive, we
traveled I mean it was my entirelife and my coach worked at the

(25:16):
school and if she caught windof us, even being at a party, we
were benched, and if we drankwe were cut Like no questions
asked.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
And so you know, I had it.
Just, it just became verynatural to me to like okay, well
, you just drink before you goto the party, right?
And then I would also go toparties at other schools because
I didn't want my anybody to betalking about me at my school,
right, thank God there wasn'tcell phones then, oh, there was

(25:47):
not to our extent, though.
There wasn't social media, likeit was 2002 right, you know.
So you guys had flip phones yeah, or I had like a nokia, like
little brick phone the brickphone yeah, it's so good that's
funny yeah those are things likethank god there wasn't no
cameras in the 80s yeah, I knowmy still being jill my social
media team always asked me forlike pictures and videos.
I'm like, I literally one.
It's a like blessing, yeah, um,but two, you know a lot of this

(26:12):
.
The pictures I have there Ilook totally fine.
They can't tell that I'm loaded, you know, because I was so
good at putting my life togetheris that like the actor on page
30?

Speaker 3 (26:20):
we read about?

Speaker 2 (26:21):
you know, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, just like everything
.
Everything was totally, youknow, looks normal on the
outside but absolutely on fireon the inside.
So, uh, you know, being able tohave this double life, I
learned very quickly in highschool.
You know how easy it was for meto just show what I needed to

(26:41):
show, you know, be be part ofthe jocks, be part of the you
know academic crew, be part ofthe you know cheerleading, and
then just kind of keep everyoneat an arm's length and never
really dove into one group,which also substantiated the
fact that I don't belong rightthat, that I don't really fit in

(27:01):
anywhere, so I'm just going totry to fit in everywhere, and
then you know when you werespreading.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
You were spreading around too.
You weren't getting in one spot.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
So somebody got to know you real well, yeah, and
you know it's.
It's also a defense mechanism,because we don't trust anybody.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
I'm not, I won't let you get, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I don't even know who Iam.
I just know that I'm terrifiedof that girl and that's why I'm
always running from her and so,um, you know, I would come home
and my mom would.
I mean, I did not grow up in ahousehold where my behavior was
okay and they just didn't knowwhat to do with me.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
And so my mom would, just, you know, try to the
frothy, emotional appeal likearen't you worried about school?
Like aren't you worried aboutcollege?
Like don't you think that youknow this is gonna be an issue
for you?

Speaker 1 (27:50):
what was your?
Any kind of punishment, or wasit just, oh, they tried?

Speaker 2 (27:54):
I mean, they helicoptered the shit out of me.
I mean, oh my gosh, it was, itwas so I mean the things I had
to do to just get Graduated inthe 90s, huh.
I graduated in 2002.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, fuck, I'm old.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, yeah, buddy yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
No, I think I graduated in 2004.
Okay, and then 08 from CU.
Okay, so you know that like didkind of, there was a part of me
that was like fuck, dude, if Ican't figure out college, that
means I'm gonna be back here,right, and then I'm gonna have
to just continue to like, behelicoptered and whatever, and

(28:31):
so so you know, she did, I was.
There was a fear, not so muchof you know am I gonna die in
college, but more I'm gonna haveto come back and live with them
.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
And I could not wait to get out of there.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
So you know, again like back to my parents, you
know, taught me the value ofhard work.
I was working at a steakhouseand there was this guy who, you
know, wasn't paying anyattention to me which is never
acceptable.
Paying any attention to me,which is never acceptable.
And I felt really untouchableand on top of the world and was
so confused why this personwouldn't not like what he wasn't

(29:13):
like Do you ever have problemsgetting a man, getting a boy, to
be attracted to you?

Speaker 1 (29:17):
prior to this one, I couldn't imagine I was in
straight delusion.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
So you know I didn't really have that many issues,
but you know he was not havingany of it and I did everything
to make this man jealous, liketold him about the upperclassmen
that I was with on all the kegparties.
You know I fabricated all ofthe stories to make it sound

(29:43):
even better.
And he was just so not impressedand so I gay that's exactly it,
or a man of faith, one of thetwo, yeah well, I didn't know
that, I didn't know that he wasa man of faith and so, um, you
know he, I did ask him.
I was like are you gay?
Like why is the?
Why is the deagle, you know?

(30:04):
And he looked at me sodisgusted and he was like no,
you're not a Christian, I haveno desire.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
That's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, and his parents raised him right, and so I'd
never heard that before, and Iam always one for a challenge.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Right, there you go, game on.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, so later that night it might've been, you know
, the next I was.
I was very intrigued and I waslike what does that have
anything to do with anything?
You know I grew up going tochurch on Christmas and Easter
Like I don't really understandwhy.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Right, that was your Christianity.
Yeah, don't really understandwhy.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Right, that was your Christianity, yeah, yeah.
And so you know, we wererolling silverware in the back
of this restaurant and I justsaid, what do you mean by that?
And he said, listen, you know,like the things that you're
doing right now to really, youknow, like feel whole,
essentially the partying, thedrugs, the men Jesus died for

(31:08):
you on the cross so that youcould live a life of freedom.
He loves you so much that thethings that you're doing right
now to feel love, it doesn'teven compare to how much he
loves you.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Was he doing that, witnessing right at work?

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, oh yeah.
That's a man of faith rightthere, buddy, oh yeah, and so
you know, we just to him thiswas probably like a no big deal
conversation, right.
I went home and you know, I I Iwas totally curious and I knew
that I needed to have a changein my life and so I dusted off
this like old King James Versionwe had in a guest bedroom and

(31:45):
he gave me a few verses to readout of John and Matthew and I
just got there on my knees and Iasked Jesus into my heart.
And I really did feel atransformation.
And I went back to work thenext day and I told him and I
just had this warm feeling oflike now I know the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
And so I went back to work the next day and I told
him like I did what, what yousaid, and like I feel different,
and he was like.
He was like that's good.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Can we date now?

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, I really didn't , I promise you, I really didn't
have that as my motive.
And so he invited me to church.
And then here I find out, likehis he's a out.
Like his church is a Biblechurch and they have all these
elders and his dad isessentially an elder, which is a
pastor, and I'm like, wow, he'sthe pastor's son and he gets me

(32:36):
involved in their young it'scalled college and career group.
So, like younger people, and Istart going to Bible study and I
do have a massivetransformation and just felt the
power of Jesus flowing through.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Was that the first you said?
You grew up going to church,right, you were a christer which
is what my wife calls it achrister but you never felt the
Holy Spirit move through youbefore that moment.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
No, no, god's timing.
Yeah, totally, I don't think Iwas available for it.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
That's a good way to put it.
Yeah, willing heart, willingheart, totally yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
And my parents loved the transformation.
They thought it was a littlestrange, but they would much
prefer this version of me thanthe other version would much
prefer this version of me thanthe other version.
And so, you know, he and I, um,started to spend more time
together and then, you know, we,just we would um after work, we

(33:36):
would go line dancing and Imean we had, we had a lot of fun
together and I had never reallybeen with a man that respected
me and um would drop me off, andyou know, on time and would
walk me to my door and wouldknow weird stuff.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
That had to be pretty impressive.
Yeah, no drinking during thatperiod of time.
You cut it.
No, it was gone.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
It was gone.
How old were you?
18.
Okay, yeah, and it was right,as I was graduating high school.
So I was going to my college afew months later.
So I was going to my college,um college, like a few months
later, and he was attending acommunity college, um, and was
still working at that restaurant.

(34:12):
And you know, um, we got veryclose over that summer.
Um, I went to school in Boulderand, um, I got baptized um
right before I went to school.
And then really, we just like,like were hanging out all the
time.
He was always in my dorm room,we were always going to like
Bible studies and getting likesuper involved, and you know,

(34:35):
they did have quite a bit ofstuff available to you.
And we got engaged thatfollowing Christmas I was 19.
Wow, and my family was like now, this is a little weird because
you're so young.
Right, but they had loved thetransformation, and so my

(34:55):
parents are very much abouthigher education.
They're like she is going tograduate, like this is not like
get her pregnant.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
And they said as long as she graduate graduates, we
support it.
And so, um, we got married whenI was 20 and there was, there
was alcohol at our wedding, butI didn't drink.
And then, um, you know, I uhmoved.
We bought a little.
My dad helped us buy a littlecondo, and it was I had two
years left of school and wewould have, you know, dinner

(35:29):
parties with his family, and Ido remember I would like try
having like a glass of wine, andwhat would happen is my mind
was hijacked the whole rest ofthe night.
You know, it was just like Ididn't know that this was
alcoholism.
But I do have an allergy of thebody, which means that if I
have one, that my, my whole,like mental outset is now lit on

(35:52):
fire, and I am obsessed withthe second and the third and the
fourth, and and so it got tothe point where I just stopped
drinking entirely, cause I waslike this is so annoying, I
couldn't even be present forconversations, right.
I was just like I was able towhite knuckle it and only have
one, but I just remembered likethis isn't worth it, right,
because I would immediately mybrain would go to I want to

(36:14):
drink that whole bottle.
I want to be drunk.
I would drink to get drunk, youknow.
And it was really confusing tome to be, you know, having those
feelings, because I reallythought that when I accepted
Jesus, all of that would go away.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
All that's going to be fixed.
Yeah, right, yeah.
What's going on here?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Right, right, I was like wait.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
So you were about three years in that at this
point.
Yeah, you're about three years.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know instead alsosomething I learned about the
disease of alcoholism is itmanifests in other areas, and so
I put a lot of energy towardsschool.
I was obsessive about running.
I got a little Jack Russell andshe was just the love of my
life and I took her to class andwe would hike and run every day

(37:03):
.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Those things have endless amounts of energy,
totally Endless.
Three bodies will take thewhere one in brings out.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, well, I would be running so much that when I
got her leash out she hid underthe bed because she was over it.
I mean, I was alcoholicallyrunning like 10, 20 miles a day
Like it was insane and um itjust it got to a place where,

(37:32):
you know, I, I, the, thethoughts and the feelings came
back again of you don't belonghere.
Right, I was in.
All college schools are areparty schools.
But you see, cu had a hugecollege.
You know, like our partycommunity and like I would see
the girls that I went to highschool with, that I used to
party with and they're now inyou know, sororities and like

(37:54):
stop it, Rob Sorry.
Having pillow fights Child.
And you know it's, it's like's,like, like.
Okay, I don't belong hereeither.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
And then I started to like I didn't know how to
verbalize these feelings, um andso we don't know, though right
we don't, we don't, I didn'tknow yeah I didn't know, till I
was sober for a year and a half,that I was, that.
That's what I was feeling,totally yeah, right.
Yeah Right, the step work.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, oh well, the doctor.
Well, I heard it in the rooms.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Right, I heard multiple people say it in the
rooms and I'm like fuck, arethey talking about?
And then, the more I heard himexplain it, I'm like, yeah,
that's it.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
When I read the, when I was in recovery or in
Maynard's, you know thephenomenon of craving, what is
that?
Oh, that, okay, and now I getit.
I couldn't fight the obsession.
The first drink, you know, yeah, I take the first drink just to
kind of shut, and you know whenyour body makes that sound
right.
Yes, you two monkeys are liketwins but I didn't realize okay

(38:59):
then that once I do that, then Icouldn't where I'm going to go,
how much more I'm going todrink, what else am I going to
put in my body?
I didn't realize that part ofit.
When you get by a train, it'snot the caboose that kills you,
it's the first one.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
The first drink.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
That sound.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
That feeling.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
A feeling.
For me, most of the time it wasto stop the shakes.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
I drink, but at first for me it was okay getting
ready to go.
It's preparation, it's medicine, it's it was for me early on.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Get my mind right, it was for me early on.
You know, we were just talkinglast night.
I mean, I, I get that instantlywhere I have to have whatever.
I just had to make me feel good, I had to have it again yeah I
had.
I just the way my body's wired,yeah, yeah, disease of more.
Oh, yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah.
So, um, you know, I I didn'treally again have a platform or
avenue to.
We would go to Bible studiesand I just couldn't verbalize, I
didn't know this stuff aboutnot feeling okay on my own skin,
you know.
And, um, I graduated and I didreally well in school and I got

(40:05):
a job that sent me to a salesconference, like sales training
conference, that first year, forI'm sorry, that first month
that I was working for them.
And you know I walk in and Isee fun like outgoing people
just like me and they'redrinking and I tell myself, hey,
did you have the three riversrule?

Speaker 3 (40:26):
What's that If you cross three rivers, all bets are
off.
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Okay, what's?

Speaker 1 (40:30):
that mean he's talking about if you get far
enough away from home.
If you get far enough away fromhome, you're okay, Right?
So the guys?

Speaker 3 (40:38):
would say, if you cross three rivers, that means,
that means it doesn't count.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
What happens there?
Stays there, right, right.
No, I didn't know that rule,rob.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
But now I do.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Well, so you know, I justified to myself it's been
some time right.
And then the first night.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
I can drink like a gentleman now.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah Well, and I actually didn't even try, I just
got hammered.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Well, that's what you do at conferences, right?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah, yeah, I just followed suit, to be honest, and
for the first few conferencesit was fun.
They loved me, I could be myold self.
Plus, I was married and hadthat life too, and it felt like,
okay, this is what I wasmissing.
And then it just progressed.
Where you light the allergy,and I mean I'm drinking.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
You had a good balance, you had a good balance
to begin with.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, your balance got tipped Totally, totally.
And then you know, um out, outat a um.
I would even like suggest to myhusband like hey, let's have
wine tonight.
And he'd like what do you know?
Like what do you mean?
because he knew the right, right, right yeah and so uh so he
never drank at any time he wouldhave a beer every but he was.
He knew from the jump that Iwas an alcoholic.

(41:55):
Okay, he sent me to aa meetingsoh, wow or to one, and then I
was like I don't belong there.
I sat in the parking lot thewhole time?

Speaker 3 (42:02):
do you ever made it in the building?

Speaker 2 (42:04):
I think I can't remember I either made it in the
building but I didn't go in theroom.
I was like this is, this is Istill had my?
You know, you fucking peopleare weird right, right.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Why are you chanting?
What are you chanting, right?

Speaker 2 (42:18):
right right serenity so when we, you know, like I
knew that, I kind of had to hideit from him because he had this
like idea that I was analcoholic.
But I, you know, had to getreally honest with him when I
was at a trip and the last thingI remember was being at the

(42:39):
hotel bar and then I woke up inanother man's bed and that
sucked because I'd never wantedI.
He was my dream man Like I've.
I legitimately loved him withmy whole heart.
I could not even imagine I waslike what the fuck?
Like how?
did I do this Like how did I gethere?
Yeah, now I carried it, carriedit a little too far Right, and

(43:05):
so I went home and I told himand he was devastated and you
know he said you got to stopdrinking.
And I was like in my mind, notone cell of my entire body
thought that that would ever bean option.
I told myself that somebodymust've put something in my
drink Like I didn't even.
I just did whatever I could torationalize yeah.

(43:25):
Yeah, and I was like you know.
I said what I needed to saylike of course yes.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
You know, let's just make this better Um and then it
would happen again.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
And then I was like, damn it.
Okay, well, I did, you knowcause I would be like I just
didn't eat enough or somebodyput something in my drink.
And you know, it was just this.
It was like I'm hurting thisperson.
And so we agreed that I wouldquit my job because it was the
job Right, even though he knewit wasn't, and we moved to the
small mountain town.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Geographical change.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah, and it was like our last-ditch effort to start
over.
We got in a new church and Istarted doing Bible study and I
do what I always do.
I last for about four monthsand then the itch comes back.
You get thirsty, yeah yeah, youshow up.
Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah,yeah, you show up, yeah, exactly
Exactly.
And, um, you know, in in thiscircumstance, a client showed up

(44:28):
of mine with a bag of cocaineand I was like sure, run it, you
know.
And it was like I just knew Ihave this, that's an itch, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
You weren't even drinking.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Oh, I had like been sneaking a little, you know
cause I could never like staystopped.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
But it was.
It was really and here's how Irationalize my drinking all the
time is like, well, as long asI'm, you know, in like a safe
environment and I like don't,there's not a man around, yeah,
yeah, right, I'm like doing itat home, right, you know.
And then like, um, just just inan environment with other
girlfriends that are going todrop me off, it was never safe,

(45:01):
it was always a risk, and so Ihated myself so much though I
didn't have a way to really sortthrough the guilt and the shame
of what I had done to him atthat point and just how I just
felt so shitty about myself thatit was only a matter of time if
I didn't do the work you know,and and he really came from the

(45:23):
the you know ideology that Jesuscan just make you clean, right,
and I I believe that, but Idon't think that faith can dig
out the poison and I reallythink that the 12 steps of
Alcoholics Anonymous is the onlything.
Doing a thorough fourth andfifth step, doing the ninth step

(45:44):
, making an amends and going upand cleaning up the wreckage of
my past has been the only thingthat has helped me.
That might not be somebodyelse's experience.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
But do you think it's this, Kat?
It's not Jesus.
Can God can, because I believefirmly in that.
Because if we have a resentment, a fear, guilt, shame that we
want to be rid of, if we stillhold on to that, there's one
reason it's either your God'snot strong enough or you're not
willing enough to let it go.
It's not God's to take, yeah, Imean, it's not ours to give,
yeah, I mean it's not sorry,it's not gonna take it, yeah,

(46:22):
and it's just that simple.
But get me, because guilt andshame are not the same thing.
Guilt is because the shame iswhat got me and once we have
confessed yeah and we own, yeah,the guilt should be gone.
Yeah, it was taken, but guiltis I did.
Bad, shame is I am bad rightthat's what used to bite me,
because I was, and if I am andI'm going there anyway, you know
, because I could have sworegoing to church all my life.
You know, growing up, thepastor would say you know, don't

(46:44):
.
You know, don't touch, don'teat, don't drink.
And I could have sworn when Iwas about 13,.
He looked at me, young man, andif you even think about doing
it, it's just as bad as doing it.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
And I'm like.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
I've been thinking about that for all my life I
might as well touch it then, andif I'm going to hell, I might
as well have fun.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
But the shame is what got me.
I didn't know that I just didwrong.
I thought I was wrong.
I'm just broken yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
And the I mean and maybe this is just the message
that I have is I had this unrealexpectation that knowing Jesus
was the same as walking withJesus.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
And.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
No, right, right.
And that, like I didn't trulyknow, and this is why I have the
story that I have is becauseknowing him and having him pick
me up out of the deepest pits ofdarkness and never leaving and

(47:46):
always coming back for me, nomatter what, has helped me
understand his love and undyinglike just devotion to me and
that I'm the one that leavesRight.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
We forsake him, he doesn't forsake us.
A hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah, I mean, he didn't go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
No, no, we, we didn't lose him Right.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Right, yeah.
So I just, um, you know, I justcontinued to pile more and more
guilt and shame.
And then, finally, you know, Iran off to Mexico with a guy and
I called my husband from theairport.
I was like, hey, I'm in Mexicoand he's like you're aware.
I was like, yeah, um, can youcome get me from?
Oh shit, yeah, not, he didn'tfly to Mexico, but he came and

(48:29):
got me at DIA and, um, I wasjust broken.
I was broken.
I was like, just please give mea divorce.
Like it's just, I can't, Ican't keep doing this, like I
can't, I got, there is somethingin me, I got to go get it out
of my system.
And you know, I think that's alie that we tell ourselves,
because we just, I mean, I justdidn't really understand the

(48:52):
disease of alcoholism like that.
It's insatiable, it's fatal.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
It's progressive.
Yeah, yeah, and you thought youwere just broken.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Yeah, A hundred percent, and I, I you know when
I have, we were.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Yeah, we're broken.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah, when I have um one.
You know my appetite isn'tsatisfied when.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
I have a hundred.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
it's not satisfied, you know.
It's only intensified.
And I didn't understand that.
And so you know, he granted methe divorce.
We had a separation, and Ididn't understand that, and so
he granted me the divorce.
We had a separation, and then,for about the next seven years,
it was me just going to thedeepest, darkest places, really
rebelling against God, Like youknow what.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
You weren't in this marriage and you weren't in
church and you didn't protect mefrom that, you didn't protect
me From myself.
Right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Exactly.
If you love me so much, comeand get me.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
And he did.
He never left me.
I had times in some of mydarkest, deepest, furthest away,
and he left the 99 and came forme and he would send.
I believe that God sometimessends people and people would

(49:58):
randomly come up to me and theywould.
They would like not even knowme and they, they would just say
God, he still loves you so muchand he wants you to come home.
Just gave me chills.
Yeah, and it's I mean it's likewho are, who are you, you know?
And I would just get angry, Ipush it away and I wanted him to
just radically heal me like,make me clean.
I didn't want to have to do thework.

(50:19):
I didn't want to have to changemy lifestyle.
I didn't want to have toactually Easier, softer.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Exactly Easier, softer way yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
So, you know, I did what alcoholics do best in 2013.
I found myself really kind ofin a pit of despair and just
totally struggling.
I decided that I needed to moveagain and I moved to California
to be close to my brother andhis kids, who needs the cold
weather anyway.
Yeah right, well, I was inAtlanta at this point.

(50:49):
Okay, I had moved to Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Who needs the humidity anyway?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Oh my gosh.
Atlanta was awful, but I really.
I wrote myself a letter on theplane hey, it's going to be
different.
This is for real.
This time right, and within 24hours I'm at the local bars.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
You still have that letter.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
It's on an iPad.
But yes, I do.
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Do you go back and read that at all?

Speaker 2 (51:14):
You know I haven't in like five years, but I need to.
Yeah, I would like to put it inmy book.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
I was just saying writing yeah, um.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
So yeah, I mean really, uh, I had told myself
that this was going to bedifferent and it wasn't.
And um, you know now the, theconsequences and the stakes were
higher, because I have mybrother and his kids right up
the street.
My brother gets a front rowseat to just all that I'm doing,
but can I?

Speaker 1 (51:42):
ask, you didn't have any more respect for him than
you had for your mom and dad,right?
I mean there was.
No, I can't do this in front ofmy brother, because you were
doing it in front of yourparents.
You know I'd been getting awaywith it for so long and I just
had gotten reckless really, soyou didn't care, no.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
I think, I think and I thought, but in our minds
you're probably going to go besuper aunt and we're going to do
all these things and I'mtotally normal in my mind.
Yeah, you know, you know, thisis going to fix it.
Yeah, this is going to fix it.
It's geographical.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah, um, I remember the day he came over to my house
and he walked in my apartmentand he's like you, you gotta
figure it out.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
He's like how long had you been in LA at that time?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Almost a year.
Okay, yeah, so you know well, Iand I had um accumulated quite
a bit of wreckage by then, and,um, I mean, they don't even know
the half of it really, um,where were you at with your
employment at this time?

Speaker 1 (52:37):
were you with I went?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
back.
I went back to um.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
I was working for a corporate company um selling
software okay, and I was able towork out of my home, which is
like an alcoholic dream I Iworked from and nightmare I've
been working from home since2005.
Yeah, yeah, in fact I'd beensober for a year, mckenna had
found found a bottle still shoshoved in my desk.
I forgot it was back then.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know I was able tomanage and create that double
life and nobody really knew Iwas struggling.
And you know, when my brothersaid you got to cut the shit,
like Thanksgiving's coming up,this was in September of 2015.
Thanksgiving's coming upChristmas in September of 2015.
Thanksgiving's coming upChristmas like I don't want you

(53:22):
around and I really was assumingthat you know going to get.
I was like all right, I get it,I get it.
So you know, I lived in thisincredible beach apartment right
in downtown San Clemente.
I mean my apartment.
Like it's so amazing.
I've had God's favor since Ican remember.

(53:44):
I mean I truly have, I havethis incredible apartment.
And you go out to my balconyand you overlook and there's all
this beautiful ocean and thetrain that runs through the town
.
And you know I would just wakeup every day thinking today's
going to be different.
And by you know, five o'clockor, I'm sorry, 10 AM, I'm, you

(54:05):
know, reaching for the pills,whether it's Adderall or Xanax,
um, or I have, you know, vodkain the freezer or Adderall or
Xanax.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Let's go in two different directions.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Well, I'm my own chemist.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
So, however, I want to feel.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Better live in chemistry.
I am my own chemist.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Hey, but I appreciate the liquor.
That's where my Jack Danielswas in the freezer.
I watered it down with iceRight right, and I never.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
I mean, I preferred clear alcohol because it was
better for you.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
So I told myself you could hide it better.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah.
And so you tell yourself yeah,yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
And I, just I really, you know, I became an expert at
hiding, getting what I needed,master manipulators, totally.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
I think I was born with that, you know, and part of
my character defects is I takethat way too far.
But when I can actually alignthat and have balance in that,
I'm a pretty good salesperson,you know.
I'm pretty influential and canhave some impact for good things
.
So, having broken promises tomyself day in and day out, I was
like I'm just going to be aslave to this forever.

(55:07):
And that train looked reallygood.
That train seemed like a realeasy way to go Easy way out the
barn for you.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Larry had a barn, I know I remember that in your
story yeah yeah, and you knowthe um the.
Does it still hurt you to talklike?
To talk about that.
It takes you to that spot Itell people this you know, when
jim was here and I heard, heardhim talk about his and then
hearing you say it like that, itjust, it just takes you to that

(55:38):
thought process only for amoment now good, right I hope it
does right only for a momentnow but I still feel that deep
despair for a moment right, andI'm able to bring myself right
back out.
Yeah, please don't ever take meyeah, yeah it's.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
I mean, I wish that any of that kept me sober right
it never does.
It never does the feeling ofyou know what happened even a
week ago, a day ago.
But it does allow us to stillstay connected to the newcomer
and have this feeling of empathyand sympathy because it takes
me, it keeps me from going backinto my depression.

(56:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
That, those thoughts that has nothing to do with my
drinking but that keeps me outof my depression.
Yeah, that, those thoughts thathas nothing to do with my
drinking but that keeps me outof my depression, yeah, is is
remembering how deep I was.
Yeah, and no fucking way am Iputting myself back in that hole
when I, when I know it and Ican feel it, I don't want to go
there.
Yeah, I just remember that.
That.
How dark those days were.

(56:35):
Yeah, just dark, and yeah, andI just don't ever want to go
back there again.
Yeah, it's a miserable place tobe.
That had nothing to do with mydrinking, I mean, well, it
probably did, but I mean, it wasjust that depression, it was
just brutal.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah, well, I had, um , you know, I, I had my, I still
had my Jack Russell at thatpoint and I had um gotten
another dog who I would try toforce to run with me and he
didn't really like it.
But at that time they were like12, 13 and I would just look
down at their little gray facesand they were.
They were the the longestrelationships I had had ever.

(57:10):
They had gone through all themoves for me.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Um, you know they didn't care if you got drunk.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
They didn't, they didn't and they were.
I mean we had, we had beenthrough it and I just I couldn't
bear to leave them.
And so, you know, when mybrother came in my apartment and
, you know, asked me to get somehelp, it was almost a relief
because it was like you don'teven know the fight that I've
had, like thank God, somebodykind of found me out, like,

(57:37):
thank God, somebody kind offound me out, and I had always
been very active in the gym and,you know, always tried to work
out Amazing results.
You can see when you stopdrinking and, you know, stop
staying up for three days at atime, you start feeding your
body besides vodka.
But you know, I was at this gymand this woman I would talk

(58:00):
about.
You know how I was on thesebenders and you know, like how
how amazing I am for showing upto the workout even though I
hadn't slept, and you know,since Tuesday it was like a
Friday morning and and just likeyou know, bragging about all of
them, Right, right.
And this amazing, beautifulwoman, um would just like,
kindly like, look at me andshe'd be like, if ever you want

(58:21):
to talk about sobriety, was sheolder?
Yeah, she was like 10, 15 yearsolder.
She had 15 years of sobriety,beautiful.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Do you?

Speaker 3 (58:30):
still know her.
Yeah, oh yeah, she's like ourage.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah, she, she's, she is.
Um.
You know, we had dinner abouteight months ago and I mean she
was my Eskimo she's.
She met me that afternoon.
She was the only person I knewwho was sober, and so when my
brother said that's what it is.
Is that a new?
Is that a new?

Speaker 3 (58:50):
I never heard that before.
Is that the reference to thebig book with Eskimo?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
I don't, I actually don't know where it came from.
Yeah, but I actually don't knowwhere it came from.
Oh, yeah, but when my brothersaid you need to get some help,
I reached out to her throughFacebook Messenger and I said,
hey, can we talk?
And we met that afternoon.
She said, sure, when a hand forhelp reaches out, I mean she
was there?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
And we had a conversation.
That's right, that's right.
And we had a conversation,that's right, that's right.
And we had a conversation at alittle restaurant and I just
broke down, I I was as honest asI could be at um, you know,
zero days of sobriety and justtold her I mean mostly about how
I felt, um, hopeless, and that,you know, I felt like I had no

(59:34):
purpose and that I would justwake up telling myself today is
going to be different and itwasn't.
And it was to the point where Iwas borderline, suicidal and
fantasizing about throwingmyself in front of a train and
making a very permanent decisionand didn't even really talk
about the substances.
And she just said I have greatnews that you don't have to feel

(59:57):
like this anymore.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
She's like.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
I felt the way that you have felt and I'm free today
.
She's like the not so greatnews is that the solution is
Alcoholics Anonymous and I waslike, oh damn fuckers.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah, I was like I was almost there one day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Yeah, and I, I just I was like no, like I just was
convinced that she misheard meyou know, like what do you mean
this is?
I mean, I was like whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Isn't there a pill Right?
Isn't there a pill that I could?

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
take Exactly, or a book or a doctor or like some
type of like magic, like youknow, retreat.
And I mean I honestly had triedall those things, like I had
tried the retreats.
I had tried all those things,like I had tried the retreats.
I tried years of therapy,analyzing and psychoanalyzing my
family and genealogy and allthis bullshit, you know.
And, and you know, she justsaid if you keep doing what

(01:00:46):
you're doing, you're going tokeep getting what you're getting
.
And I was like, okay, fine, Iwas a white flag, what do I need
to do?
And she said there's a meetingevery morning um less than you
know, two miles from here.
She's like you need to haveyour butt in that seat.
I was like for how long?
And she said as long as ittakes.
And so, you know, next morningI dragged my you know, sorry ass

(01:01:08):
in there and I sat in the back.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Sober.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Yeah, okay, but I had drank that day before I met
with her, so it wasn't mine.
Right and I drank that daybefore I met with her, so it
wasn't mine, and that wasSeptember 9th 2015.
And I was broken and justbawled my eyes out, you know,

(01:01:32):
and they just smiled and saidkeep coming back and it was so
crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
So that's this time 10 years ago.
Yeah, exactly, you were in theroom Exactly.
Yeah, that's ago.
Yeah, exactly you were in theroom Exactly.
Yeah, that's cool yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
And so then you know, I would call her after my
meetings and I was like now,what do I do?
And she's like we go do, like,what do you do work?
I was like, yeah, I normallyget drunk.
Right right and she's like, okay, go work.
And then call me at lunch.
And I called her at lunch and,um, you know, she's like go for
a walk, and then I would go to anight meeting.

(01:02:02):
And then I would remember likemaking it like 24 hours, and I
was like, okay, but I was stilltaking Adderall.
And I told her and she was like, let's just worry about the
alcohol at this point, right, Umand so, you know, I was like
all right.
And she's like, if you can'tstay sober for seven days,
you're going to have to go torehab.
And I was like go to what?
It's like no way.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Only alcoholics go to them places.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
And so you know that scared me.
I stayed at her house a fewnights because I was just like
shaking and I was like I don't,I don't really trust myself.
And we made it through and, um,you know I just the biggest
thing is that you know, likegoing to rehab was like to me a

(01:02:47):
huge outward like declarationthat I have a problem and I
couldn't tell people that I hadthis.
You know I was still trying tocover up and so you know I
remember getting a week and thenyou know, just being like
ecstatic, like getting throughmy first Friday night.
And the thing about the roomsof Alcoholics Anonymous is that

(01:03:10):
they welcomed me there and theywere so happy.
It was like finally I felt apart of something and I wasn't
really welcome anywhere at thatpoint, right?
So, um you know, they would doreally fun things.
They went on camping trips and,as, as the time progressed, um
it was, it was um October 31st,uh.

(01:03:34):
So so it was Halloween night,that I like flushed all the
pills so like roughly like sixor eight weeks later I flushed
the pills and I was like, if I'mgonna do this thing, I'm gonna
do this thing and um, so that'swhy I celebrate my sobriety.
Date is november 1st um 2015,and so this, this upcoming year
is going to be 10 years, butyour alcohol was september.

(01:03:55):
Yeah, double digits I know goodfor you.
Are you cured at double digits?
Nope, oh, does it just getworse.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
No, it gets better, it's progressive.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Are you cured at double digits?

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Just like alcoholism is progressive, sobriety is
progressive.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
It just gets better it is.
I know that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Yeah, the best is yet to come, but 10 years is a mile
, as we talked about in many ofour podcasts.
There's, you know, you go to aconference.
They usually accept the crapyou went to over in the
international.
Whatever.
They'll do a sobriety countdownCrap I went to, yeah, anyway,
whether you, I got calls fromyou.
So they do a sobriety countdownand you don't see a lot of six

(01:04:30):
to 10.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Because that's when life gets good, you know, and
they you know, I don't reallyneed a meeting today, or they?
You know, they forget to do thethree pray, don't?
They quit praying, work withothers, quit fellowshipping,
yeah, and they go back out, yeah.
So you don't see a lot of those.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
So that's a, that is a real milestone it's one of
those things, though, thatanytime I hear somebody come
back in, you know, I want toknow why and it's usually the
big three yeah, and it's.
You know, our buddy brad bradalways says to me why do you
care?
Why, because I want to fuckinglearn yeah, that's why?
Yeah, I want to know why.
What were you thinking, whatwere you doing, what weren't you
?

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
doing what?

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
weren't you doing?
Talk to me.
I want to know right, because Iwant to make sure, when I'm
feeling that I, that I'mprotecting myself, that I don't
go down that, down that hole.
Yeah right, I only got.
Well, I shouldn't say only neversay, don't say I got, you know,
I got a little over three yearsand I don't ever want to go
down there.
I don't want to be that.
It's not even five years for me, the three to five.
I don't.
I don't ever want to go downthere.

(01:05:24):
I would not change thisserenity and peace that I have
for anything anything.
Katie knows it, my kids know it.
My serenity and peace comesbefore anything, because without
it they don't have me, we don'thave anything.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah, I don't Anything you put in front of
your sobriety, you're going tolose, right, yeah, yeah, and I
refuse to give that up.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
So when did you get a sponsor and work the steps, Kat
?

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
I was about, and for maybe six months I was pretty
reluctant to.
I guess we're going here.
I was pretty reluctant to workthe steps because my life got
really good at about.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
That window of willingness starts to close.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yes, yeah, you start things get better.
I mean, naturally.
You kick alcohol and drugs outof your life and you get into a
group of positive people.
You start being more consistentwith showing up for yourself,
for work.
You know, you start to feelbetter about yourself.
Things will get better.
Right, promises Right.
It's only a matter of time,though, if you're a real one,

(01:06:27):
like the real sickies that'sdescribed in our book.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
That cat on page 52, if you're that, that's right,
it's coming that on page 52.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
If you're that, that's right, it's coming.
That I am that things get weird.
And so you know, I'm 90 dayssober and I am loving.
Maybe I'm 60 days.
I'm loving, loving life.
I'm going to my morning meeting, I'm showing up for workouts,
I'm going on like so many walkswith women, and my Eskimo would
be like how are you with thesteps?

(01:06:53):
Because she was really prettyfar removed from the fellowship.
She just said you need to getin there.
I can't sponsor you because Ihave four kids.
She's adopting two more fromAfrica.
She's a nurse, huge woman offaith.
She spent a lot of time inservice at her church and so she

(01:07:14):
was like I really think youneed to get more.
You know your sponsor needs tobe involved in the fellowship.
I said okay, yeah, cool, Allwhile looking at the steps and
thinking that those were reallyfor, like, the real low bottoms.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Not for you.
I'm good, right, like I don'tneed to tell anybody my shit.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Right, Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
I was like I was like I can stay stopped.
I had 60 days I could staystopped without the steps, so
why am I going to?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
do all that work.
I got it Right I got it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
And then my other drug walks in and he's tall with
muscles and tattoos andathletic.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
My other drug.
And he was fresh out of rehab Igot two of those three, by the
way, tall tattooed attaboy,attaboy, sorry if you two made
it let's try.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Hey wait, we did spoon one time you wouldn't lay
still long enough.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
He's a cuddler really , were you bigger, big spoon or
little spoon?

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
are you kidding me?
I curled him up like a littleball, really like a pillow so
anyways, uh, this, thisgentleman walked into my morning
meeting hold on.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
I can see what's coming now yeah you already know
mean it was game over.
I'm an untreated alcoholicright that is 60 days dry who
thinks that I have all my shittogether because I have gotten
60 days of abstinence.
And then I meet a man who justgot out of rehab, who is
probably also looking for hisnext high, and we make eye

(01:08:55):
contact, exchange phone numbersin the parking lot.
Afterwards we are texting thatwhole afternoon.
I can't wait to see him.
The next morning we sit next toeach other, we go to breakfast.
After you know we're findingout we have so much in common.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
What could go wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
What could go wrong?
What could go wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
No sponsor to bounce things off Right, right, right,
I mean running, unattendedrunning unsupervised, just out
in the wild.
And yeah, if we go to breakfastand he puts his hand on mine
and says you're going to be mywife, and I said I know, and so
we.
He proposes two weeks later andI um gladly accept because it

(01:09:37):
makes sense to.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
Because it made total sense, right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
And then, you know, I introduced him to my Eskimo.
I was like, oh my gosh, you gotto meet him.
He's amazing.
He loves Jesus too and he's aprofessional golfer.
So my dad's going to be soproud and he's really good
looking.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
And you know he's Mom's going to be proud, proud
and he's really good looking andyou know he's mom's going to be
proud.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
He's sober and she was like just shaking her head,
like no, she's like you reallyneed to get a sponsor.
Like I love this for you, butlet's focus on the steps.
She's like it doesn't mean youhave to break up with him, but
let's.
Let's like really she tried toconvince me that the steps were
important and, um, I was just sohigh on the relationship and so

(01:10:20):
, um, you know, he and Iconvinced each other that we
were gonna just be like boymeets girl on aa campus and we
were only going to be that muchbetter and effective as leaders.

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
could go wrong a sober power couple right and so
we just went to the that muchbetter and effective as leaders,
because what could go wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
A sober power couple Right.
And so we just went to thecourthouse and got married a
week after that.
And so I had known this man for21 days and we got married.
And I went to this woman'shouse to tell her how excited I

(01:10:57):
was that I got married and Ijust said, hey, you know that
guy that I was telling you.
She's like yes, and I was likeit was too good to be true
because he's married to me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
She's lucky she didn't punch you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
She literally, her mouth, dropped to the floor.
She was like what did you do?
I was like I got married andshe's like, oh my gosh.
She's like, is this real?
I was like, yeah, and I hadlike the court papers and
everything.
And you know, he and I marchedinto our morning meeting the
next day and everyone thoughtthat we were batshit crazy, just

(01:11:35):
as proud as can be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Chest just blown out.
Look at us, we got this shitright right this is the promises
we don't need no damn steps,nope, no good our way if we're
painstaking, look exactly rightexactly, yeah, um, so you know
we lasted for I don't a goodlike three weeks doing like

(01:11:57):
really awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Another 21 days yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Then we are um traveling and um I like would
bring him with me to travel.
And we were in Florida and Iwas at this conference and he
said we're about to go to bedand he said, you know, I think I
could drink again.
And I was like, oh my God, run,I know.

(01:12:22):
Like.
I just was like oh shit.
And I was like really Okay.
And he's like, yeah, cocaine ismy thing.
And I was like okay, I was likeI know that I cannot drink.
Um, you know, I I just knowthat about me.
But if you think that you cantry, I guess I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
That's impressive that you got to that without
going through your steps andthat you had gotten to that
realization that you knew youjust could not drink.
You knew the first step was nottaking that drink.
I had tried, I had spent yearstrying to manage my drinking you
know, and like I just, so thatexperiment failed so many times?

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Yeah, so I had I had the research, I had the R and D
to back it up.
You know, and it was, it wasjust a very you know that I
always go back to that feelingof when I have just one, my mind
is hijacked and it's justannoying, right, you know.
So I knew, I knew that Icouldn't, and then it was only a
matter of time, probably weeks,that you know, he didn't come

(01:13:24):
home one night and he stoppedsharing his location and I said,
hey, is everything okay?
And he's like, yeah, I just gotinto like a minor fender bender
.
I stopped and had a few beersat the bar.
I was like, oh, okay, what?
And then he from that, he wentfrom having a few beers at the

(01:13:46):
bar and he was at his dealer'shouse.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
That fast, that fast, yep.
I mean that I haven't heard itdescribed any other way right In
the times.
In the short time I've beenaround here, I've never heard
the relapses or the.
I can try this one more time.
I've never heard it go anyother way yeah, it was back if
they're the real deal right.
Yeah, yeah I know for a fact Iwould be.
I know damn well I would beyeah I wouldn't survive, but I
would be,

Speaker 2 (01:14:08):
yeah, so you know, this is the first time that I'm
now on the other side of theattic that's's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
Did you recognize that?

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
No, no, no, I was like-.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
What you did to husband number one, husband
number two kind of did to you.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Yeah, I mean, I have this queen baby mentality, so
don't you know that that's notgoing to happen to me, right,
it's like divorce immediately.
But I did beg and plead and belike I don't understand, like
can't you just, can you justcome home?
And like let's figure this out?
And I was, he wouldn't, hecouldn't come home, he couldn't
stop.
Um, I was devastated and thankgoodness I had smart feet.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
I was gone again.
Yeah, well, he wouldn't, hecould.
Yeah, he wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
He chose other.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Yeah, of course, and so isn't it thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Thinking about that, I mean think about that for a
second right.
You, you felt it.
You knew what sobriety feltlike.
Right you had a hardworking,sober, beautiful woman at home
and he still couldn't make ithome.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Yeah, still couldn't make that that's totally
powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
Still, the grip it had on him had no clue, no clue.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Yeah, the grip it had on him had no clue, no clue.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
Yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Yeah, so I mean, thankfully I had smart feet and
Didn't drag you with him.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
She knew where to go.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
I just went to the meetings.
I was bawling my eyes out.
These girls at one of themeetings were like are you what
is going on?
Are you okay?
Did someone who died?

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
You know, and I was like, I mean, my husband, my
husband relapsed, I don't knowwhat to do.
And you know I'm not likedrinking, didn't really sound
like like fun, but I just wasreally scared, I was gonna
relapse and so they're like well, who's your sponsor?
and I was like I mean, I guessme.
They like that's your problem.

(01:15:55):
And they gave me theirsponsor's number and I called
her and she was like, okay, Imean, I'm glad you didn't drink.
It's a miracle that you didn't.
To be honest, it truly was yeah.
And she's like, let's get towork.
And I was like, absolutelyafter I divorced this man.
And she's like oh no, you don't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
No, she's like oh no, you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
She's like she's like you don't sponsor.
Yeah, she's like.
You don't get to play this Godcard of.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
I want to be married.
I want to be divorced.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Like she's like we're going to do some inventory on
this.
Like she's like what in yourright mind did you think that
this would be okay?
And um, she's like we're goingto give it 30 days and I'm like
what?
She's like 30 days, no contactwith him and we're going to wait
and we're going to do the work.
And you need to sit in this.
This isn't the adult behaviorwhere you just make these

(01:16:45):
drastic, impulsive decisionswithout really understanding why
and learning from it.
Oh my gosh, and it was agony,because then he came back at
like two weeks and, um, hebegged and pleaded and she was
like it's no contact for 30 daysand I had to tell him you gotta
go.
And um, you know, it was just,it was agony.

(01:17:07):
It was my first good for you,yeah, good for you, but what she
said I love it, you have to sitin this yeah you have to sit in
your own shit and smell itright, right, I mean it was, I
set the ball rolling right andso, until I understood you know
what, what, and I'm I'm just soamazingly good at rationalizing
and justifying things that whenit had to be something this

(01:17:30):
extreme, to look at my soberbehavior, to say you are not
okay, like your brain needswashing, because this is like
this is.
Look at how many people youhurt.
Like I had to tell my parentsinevitably that I did this.
Like my brother ran into us atthe grocery store he didn't know
you'd gotten married.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
No, oh shit.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
I know, and the brother who I was trying so hard
to like make everything rightfor and it was a nightmare, um,
and I you know he sent me a longtext later that afternoon after
he met my husband randomly atthe grocery store and my brother
was like I don't like thishurts so bad you didn't want me
and my wife to be a part of yourlife.

(01:18:13):
Like I don't like this hurtworse than anything that you
could have done, and I mean wehurt people, sober right.
Nobody really cares about thesubstance use.
It's our behavior.
So that's why you know, none ofthis is about abstinence.
It's about changing the woman.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
That I am.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
And you know, the first step is going to be
abstinence.
It has to be.
I can't start working on abrain that isn't, you know,
clear and available.
But, man, this really gave me,you know, the evidence that I
needed of like holy, I'm crazy,like I will rationalize, justify
, you know what I need to getwhat I want sober.

(01:18:53):
And you know, she and I thenwent through the steps and he
did end up leaving me alone andwe did get an annulment.
Um, we just agreed that it wasbetter off, you know, and that
he went his way and he's still,I think, relapsing, you know and
this is did you see him in therooms much more after he's got
an old?
no, he was gone yeah, yeah, he'sum kind of like cat was, she

(01:19:13):
got her divorce right ran forseven years you know, just yeah
they're not done.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
They're not, they're not done digging yeah and just
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
Do you think you didn't tell your brother because
you subconsciously knew likeshit was gonna hit the fan?
Yeah, I mean, I have this.
I also have this you know, fuckit, let's figure it out later.
Type attitude.
You know, yeah, and that's whatmakes us Ask for forgiveness
later, right, and I mean, that'salso what makes me fairly
successful in other areas of mylife.
Right, you take the risk,exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
You know, is the juice worth the squeeze?
You know, and that's somethingthat we analyze in business all
the time, right, is the juiceworth the squeeze?
And you know, and we, when wedo that in our personal life
with another human being, it'snot.
It's, it's not safe, right, itis not right.
I mean, I'll do it to katiestill, every once in a while
I'll do something stupid and gogod, I hope she don't get mad at

(01:20:06):
this one yeah, right, and it'slike I'd have been better off to
say it up front.
I mean, same thing you'retalking about, right.
I'd been better off to talk toher up front and take the no
right.
But I don't want to hear no, nono, no, and you're right.
You don't you just want by God,I'm going to do it my way and
if it works out exactly how Igot it planned, it'll be great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
She'll be happy, you'll be happy.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
You'll be happy.
I'm still bad at it business,wise, successful at it, personal
life it bites me too many times.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
Well, and you know I've had so much good
sponsorship and they tell usthat the.
You know recovery, andespecially this 12 steps, is a
process of unlearning right, andwe've had, we've had so many
unhealthy, you know, copingmechanisms throughout our life
that seemed to have worked.
But then you get in a communityof people who can be very

(01:21:01):
honest with you and hold youaccountable and the things that
you've done to survive yeah,they may have helped you get
from day one to two, from placeA to B, but really they're
causing you and others a lot ofharm.
And this is where we get totake a step back and really look
at our behavior.
And you know hiding living thatdouble life.

(01:21:22):
You know you can't like the.
The scales start to fall off.
Thank goodness he doesn't showus everything at once.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
Right, because the things that I yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
I mean it's, it's been layers and um, yeah, yeah,
and that's.
I mean, that's the.
The beautiful thing aboutrecovery is that we, it's, this
is a process.
We never stop.
We never stop learning, wenever.
We get to come in here and youknow, like nowhere in the big
book does it say that time isour tool, that abstinence and

(01:21:55):
the length of time sober is atool, like in my toolkit.
Is it like, okay, you know,prayer, meditation, inventory,
time sober no.
The road actually narrowsExactly it does as you stay
sober longer.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):
Yeah, the shit you can get away with at two, three
years sober, you ain't gettingaway with it Right, god narrows
that road for you with it two,three years sober you ain't
getting away with it right now.

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
Right, god knows that .
Yeah, like I can't even park in.
You know, like they have theseparking spots in california at
my gym for the electric,electric cars yeah, and I feel
so bad.
I did it one time and I waslike oh my gosh, like I can't do
that stuff, you know so it wasfunny.

Speaker 1 (01:22:32):
Last night when Kat got in my truck I was parked in
the handicap.
I got the placard.
She's like what's that about?
I'm like my wife got me thatbecause of all the surgeries and
how hard it is for me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
I didn't know that you were a bionic man.
Like that's wild yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
No, that was when I I don't use those unless, like
last night, was like right infront of the hotel and I knew I
just come in to pick you up andgo.
Right, I won't use them like astore or something like that.
I'm with you, right.
I feel guilty, I feel bad aboutdoing it because I can walk
Right.
It ain't fun but I can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
But it's the same thing.
I feel guilty about doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Yeah, it's, the road definitely narrows and you know,
as you get like more and moresober.
You know the things that I dotoday, um, to stay sober, like I
feel like I just have to addmore and more and more.
You know like it's, it's insaneeven to stay, even to stay fit,

(01:23:29):
like the, the things I have todo, the list of things I go
through to stay spiritually andphysically fit.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
You know it's like what do you get in your 40s and
50s?
I am 40.
Oh well, then wait until youhit your 50s, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
No, I mean, it's crazy, Like my maintenance stuff
.
And then you like lay your headdown and you're like, oh my
gosh, I got to do that all againtomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
God does it for me, you know, because I don't know
what balance is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
But you see, that's the thing Most people couldn't
do like most people, couldn't dowhat I do.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
But you know, apparently I can, because God
just keeps.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Well, and I say this we made fun of Rob here the
other day that.
I think he's still guy's likean energizer freaking bunny yeah
yeah, I look at him, I watchhim and I get tired.
Yeah, right, yeah, but we'rejust in two different aspects of
you know, two different I gotsome step work done this morning
.
I got a young man, yeah, yeah,10, 11 and 12 I'm not talking
about that part of it, I'mtalking about he runs.

(01:24:24):
You know, he's constantly everynight.
He's got something going on,and I do too.
It's not that I shouldn't.
I.
I'm constantly gone for work,constantly.
My phone work is going on rightover here right now, but he's
got work going on and then he,he, he's got three or four or
five sponsors going on.
Sponsor is going on at thesponsors, sponsor is going on at

(01:24:45):
the same time and he's in thejujitsu and he's into the
working out.
It's like dude, stop, you'remaking me tired watching you and
I, for me, I have to have abalance in my life, right?
If I do that in a matter of ashort period of time, I'm going
to tip over and I'm not and I'mnot mentally right, I'm not
mentally healthy.
Because I'm not, I don't feel,I don't feel like I stay that

(01:25:06):
spiritually fit that I need to,because I think that's the
reason why I get that tired andthat fatigue because I'd not
stay in the spiritually fit thatI need to.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):
Right, and that's that's something I have to work
on.
Where Rob is so spiritually fitand mentally fit and physically
fit that he he can maintainthat level.
I'm not there yet, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
I'm not I.
I mean you're three.
How much time do you have?

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
Three, three um three April May, june three.
Um three april may, june, july,august, three years six months
yeah so yeah I mean but on andbut.
On the other side of that too,is I just started another
company, right?
Yeah, so I'm like trying to getthat train rolling the right
direction.
So I'm, I'm in the air intravel.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
Once that happens, it'll settle.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
I think so I'll get a little different balance.
You know the one thing aboutand katie recognizes it as well
that when I get to a spot whereI feel extremely comfortable is
when I'm dangerous, right.

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
I start itching.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
Right.
So I constantly got to beadjusting my balances on where
I'm going.
I got to keep myselfuncomfortable a lot, because if
I get comfortable, it's not good, it's not a healthy spot for me
, it's not, and when somethingopens up for me, because with
this look, this amazing book,you gave me the one thing that
should have been what you say.

Speaker 3 (01:26:19):
This every journal is uh, who did I help today?
Yeah all my boys know.
Before I leave the driveway inthe morning, whatever time I'm
leaving, I ask god one prayeryeah who can I love on today?
Yeah, and sometimes that's thecashier at the grocery store
sometimes it's.
You know, it's always people inyour home yep but and whenever,
whenever something eases up forrob like, hey babe, we finally
got a day open yeah hey, bro,would you take me through the

(01:26:39):
steps, would you help me?
you know, something's gonna, youknow right, and I don't say.
I don't say no, yeah, because,like last night when we were
saying, when I asked someone tohelp me, basically you're asking
this man would you help me savemy life?

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
yeah, that's what I heard that's what I and on the
other side of that too is Idon't get asked that.
No, I know, and it may be.
It may be because I have thatfuck you look on my face, Don't
come and approach me on it, andthat's fine.
But I still believe this thatGod's going to use me in the
manner that he wants to use me.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
I have never said no.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
I've never said no to anything.

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):
Do you believe this?
I believe I mean we.
We hear it in the Bible as well.
But when people come in therooms and you have a spiritual
awakening as a result of thesesteps, you're given a gift.
Not everybody's gift issponsorship Right so it can be a
service to another.
It's got to be some form ofservice.
Find out what that is andexercise that gift in the rooms
or wherever God's got you, andyou will be blessed.
You will be, I mean, and Ibelieve that I mean and I

(01:27:32):
believe that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
Yeah, and I truly believe that too, rob and I.
He uses me in a lot ofdifferent ways.
I had I was at work on um onFriday and I had a one of a lady
come up and knock on my officedoor.
She says you got a couple ofminutes, can I talk?
And I said, sure, come on in.
She shut that, I, she shut thedoor behind her, right, and I
was like oh shit, and she camein and she started talking to me

(01:27:53):
about, about a relative of hersand she wanted my advice on
some stuff and wanted to talk tome about you know how, where
should she go?
How should she handle it?
And she would just.
So he uses me in in a lot ofplaces.
Right, I walk around with withthe a triangle on my arm all the
time because I sit in inairports all the.

(01:28:13):
Yeah, and I've been askedmultiple times right in the
middle of an airport, what thatis.
Some people think it's satanic,but I've had an opportunity to
witness that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
And God does not need our great abilities.
We don't have them.
What he desires is ouravailability Right.
If you'll make yourselfavailable to him, he'll use you.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
Yeah, and that's what I said.

Speaker 3 (01:28:35):
I have never said no, ever.
I know right, I've never.
I mean I but, and I've beensuccessful with one huh you've
been successful with one.
Oh yeah, blake's doing well hechased three of them out of his
house.
Cat get that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
Slam the door, get that I threw one down the stairs
no, you did.

Speaker 3 (01:28:44):
Oh yeah, I did tell him to get the fuck out of my
house.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
Why?
Because he's a dick.
Listen, don't waste my time.
Don't waste my fucking timerule four, yeah, don't I'm just,
you know when I I'm not atherapist, I'm not right I'm not
.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
I'm not a marriage counselor, I'm not a marriage
doctor either I don't need thatshit.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
You here an alcoholic , let me help you.
And he just kept kicking thecan.
Kept kicking the can, I'm like,and I was probably extreme.
I don't remember the exactdetail, but I know I was busy
but and I had set aside twohours of the afternoon that
particular day and he came to mewith the same bullshit that he
had the week before and itpissed me off.
I said really, you're cominghere with that bullshit?
And he blah, blah, blah and Isaid you know what?

(01:29:25):
Just get the fuck out of myhouse, get, get the fuck out of
here, go, get finished.
Boy, I was and what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Where is he?

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't.
I you know what I think abouthim.
He's in my phone still.
I should probably reach out tohim.
Yeah, right, and got you knowif any, with any luck, he found
a sponsor that was gonna bepatient with him and help him
through it.
Yeah, or he got or he went andgot ready or he went and
finished digging I helped theguy that had had a wet brain.
I worked with him for chris.
I mean I worked and worked andworked and worked.

(01:29:52):
I.
I moved him around, I moved,took him everywhere, finally
started to get his memory backworked with him.
I did a lot for that guy and youknow, took him into Maynard's,
got him, got him involved thereand you know he was doing what I
thought was wonderful, his him.
And I got to his sister, I gotto know real well.
She lived in Florida, she was,you know, we were working

(01:30:13):
together and he called me up oneday and said, hey, I had a
glass of wine.
I'm like, okay, now what?
And he was like, well, I thinkI'm going to go ahead and go
have some more.
I'm like you, motherfucker, andI just hung up and I don't have
, I don't, I can't go down, thatI can't do it.
I'm not going to fucking chase,chase him.
I don't have, I don't, I can'tdo it.

(01:30:34):
I will go down and I, because Iand I could be wrong in this,
but I'm not gonna put myself ina situation where I can't be
available for somebody else,right, because that guy doesn't
have a willing heart, he's notwilling to work anymore if I
spend all my time and effort onthis one human being says we
don't chase alcohol.

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
I don't, I'm I agree with that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:55):
I'm not going to chase him.
Yeah, I did every.
You know what.
And I say this in footballgames, when I coach all the time
, I don't give a shit what thatscoreboard says, I don't If you
gave it a hundred percent in thegame.
If you gave it a hundredpercent, win or lose, that's it.

(01:31:16):
And when, in this, in thisrooms of Alcoholics Anonymous
and in this game that we have,if you're giving it a hundred
percent, I'll do anything youwant.
I will do anything you want meto come iron your clothes sweep,
I'll do anything for you.
If that's going to help youstay sober.
If you're giving it back, right.
If I see you're doing somethingto to help yourself, the minute
you stop helping yourself, fuckyou.
And I just I.
That's how I protect my heart.

(01:31:37):
Yeah, right, that's how Iprotect because I loved chris.
I loved him.
I'd have done anything for thatguy.
I would have.
I still would if he called meright now.
I still would.
In fact, he I think he buttdialed me here about two weeks
ago I'm not for sure, but Ithink he did and I saw him come
across my phone and I was likeand and I answered it and he
there was nothing there, so Idon't know what happened.

(01:31:58):
But anyways, I don't know howit got down that one, but that
was a rabbit hole.
I think it's just thatwillingness to help somebody
Right.
I mean, I, I, I, I want to helpand I I was telling you this
last night I think thedifference between me and the
job where I'm in now, comparedto where I was telling you this
last night, I think thedifference between me and the
job where I'm in now compared towhere I was at before, before I

(01:32:18):
would tell people what to do.
Now I want to show people howto do it Right.
It's just a difference in my,in my giving heart.
I want to teach.
Yeah, I want to teach.
I want to give everything I have.
I want to give to somebody elseso they can go and give it to
somebody else, right, and giveit to somebody else right.
That's what the Rooms ofAlcoholics Anonymous taught me.
I give it back because that mangave it to me right.
So I want to continue to givethat to somebody else, because

(01:32:40):
if I didn't give back what hegave to me, then I'm being
selfish with this wonderful bookthat was written right.
This wonderful program, I haveto give it away.
That's why we say we're soberout loud.
We have to do that right, haveto do that Right.
You know they say that you knowthe rooms of a we're not
selfish people.
I.
I'm selfish when it comes tohelping other people, cause I'm
helping you so I can stay sober.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:00):
That's selfish.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
And I'm fucking proud of it because I'm going to stay
sober.
But I'm going to give you everyounce of me I can, you know, no
matter what, but I'm doing itfor myself.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:10):
And if you get, if you get sober and stay sober,
good for you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
But I'm doing it for me.

Speaker 2 (01:33:16):
Well, you've heard the story about Bill, probably
especially with your home group.
But he had people in his homeand he would just bring the wet
ones in his home.
They're sleeping.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
Everywhere People suicides.
Yeah, One guy killed himselfRight.

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
And put his head in the oven right, killed himself
and uh, and yeah, I mean imagine, oh poor lois um.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
Could you imagine?

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
but you know, like he went to lois and just said this
this isn't working.
I'm bringing all these peoplein, you know, and we're we're
going broke because I'm tryingto save them.
And you know, no one's stayingsober.
And she said you are, so don'tyou dare stop, because you are

(01:34:03):
staying sober.
And it's like that's.
That's why we do this.
You know like it's not.
You know I have tons of people,you know women, like you know,
they asked me to, they asked meto sponsor.
I'm like, I'm like, sure callme, they don't you know, and
it's like I just have to bewilling right and then, and I'm
the same way yeah, I've said itI I'm not going to sponsor this.

Speaker 1 (01:34:25):
God hits me over the top of the head.
Well, with blake, god hit meright over the top of the head.
I didn't.
There was no way I was gettingaway from that god brings me a
certain type.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
Yes, God's had great success since nine years ago and
I kind of did the way with thebook, basically.
But I've got my four rules.
As long as I stick to those.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
What are your four rules?

Speaker 3 (01:34:44):
Don't lie to me and I won't lie to you.
Okay, what I say to you andwhat you say to me stays between
you, me and God.
It ain't my wife's fuckingbusiness.
It ain't your wife's fuckingbusiness.
Three anytime you want to go adifferent direction, go grow.
I'm just here to help.
You won't hurt my feelings.
Yep, rule number four don'twaste my fucking time.
If you break one of those, Idon't care who you are, yeah,
we're done.
Find someone else, yeah, andthen I'm on.
But then when they're readybecause god brings me the broken

(01:35:07):
, you know and we go, and it'sbeen great, we've got a room
full of them, right?
Yeah, and then they go andtouch the way it's supposed to
be yeah, right, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:35:17):
Yeah, it's a the.
You know, jim went back to uhdenver and tried to start.
Not try he did.
He started his own men's groupthe same way we started our
men's group.
It's just an accountabilitygroup, is all it is right.
That monday night group is byfar my favorite day of the week
yeah yeah, it's not even amonday, it's not even a meeting,
it's just a.
You know there was 26.

(01:35:37):
Yeah, there was 26 of us therelast Monday night, and it's just
.
We read, you know we're readingin the traditions right now,
and, and and you can't bullshitthem, no you can't bullshit us
your pants down if you need it.
Yeah, there's enough people inthat room, I can promise you.
Rob likes to pull pants downmore than anybody in that room.

Speaker 3 (01:35:58):
Yeah, it's a metaphor anyways, but that's where the
phone came in.
There's a lot of them that knowthe phone code.
In case you want to look at it,go ahead.
We need that kind ofaccountability because we are
one drink away.
Yeah, I agree I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
I think that accountability, um know, being
able to have an environmentwhere men can be men and have
conversations, is peopledesperately need that.
You know, I think people nowmore than ever are hungry for
community.
We have more.
You know opportunities toconnect with social media and

(01:36:33):
you know technology, but we'reisolated because social media
makes us antisocial.
It really does and, um, youknow it's this counterfeit
connection right Of likeactually thinking, oh, because I
talked to you know this personon social media that they care
about me and it's like listen,like the desire is there, but

(01:36:53):
real, true connection happensyou know when we're physically
in the same presence.

Speaker 3 (01:36:58):
I'm old, I'm old yeah .

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
Yeah, Like I mean, Zoom was incredible and I
believe it.
I know a lot of people that gotsober, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:05):
on Zoom, through COVID, I couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
Like.
But you know, if that's all youhave, it's certainly better
than nothing.
Nothing, but you know the realconnection, true connection,
because you can't bullshitsomebody when you're sitting
next to them.
Body language, body language,yeah Right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
Body language is important.
Body language and the waypeople I read people's hands and
reads their eyes tremendouslywhat somebody does with their
hands, especially someone who'sbeen, who's at where we've been
you know, and they're trying toto.
They're trying to bullshit abullshitter.
Yeah, you can't lie to a mastermanipulator.

(01:37:43):
No right, no, um, I was goingto ask you another question.
You so, during you, never wentto rehab right you never went to
rehab because you said that youjust felt like that was
admitting that you're an actualalcoholic.

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
Yeah, I mean I wasn't really ready to fully tell the
world that I had this problem.
I was really hoping that Icould just go get 30 days and
chill out, right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:03):
So at what point?
If you said this earlier Iapologize, because this is
always a, this always is a goodquestion I like to ask at what
point did you sit back in thechair and you go fuck, I'm an
alcoholic and I'm not the worstkind?

Speaker 2 (01:38:17):
Yeah, at what point did you do that?
You know it wasn't.
It wasn't until somebody walkedme through, my sponsor walked
me through the the first, youknow, 45 pages of our big book
and, um, really, the doctor'sopinion, and broke it down to me
.
Because how I had beenrationalizing it for so long was

(01:38:38):
you know?
Well, I still had theseexternal things Right, I still
had my job, I still had aneducation, I still had my car,
my apartment, I hadn't gone tojail, no DUIs.

Speaker 3 (01:38:48):
Yeah, exactly, my life is not unmanageable by God.
Look at this.

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
Right, and you know, we have such this incredible
ability to lie to ourselves.
Oh boy that you know it really,truly, you know, took somebody
sitting down with me andexplaining that it's not about
the quantity, it's about whathappens when you have one Right.
And if you want to learn aboutmy alcoholism, look at me sober,

(01:39:15):
because I still have thoseobsessive thoughts, right, Like
my spiritual malady is stillthere.
I will.
My alcoholism will pop up overhere.
We'll pop up over here.
It will just be a matter oftime, you know, before I find
another area of my life that'sunmanageable.
Um, because I really just.
It just morphs into differentareas in my life.

Speaker 3 (01:39:36):
But healthier ways.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
Sometimes and this is interesting I have a good
friend in New York and he's gotfour years clean and eight
months sober and gamblinganonymous.
And he and I met and we'retalking about how he's like I
was literally in prison.
He took insane amounts of moneyout of his trust, gambled away

(01:39:58):
his apartment with his fiancethey have a little baby and he's
like, but people just thought,because I'm not shooting heroin
and not doing Coke, then I'mfine.
He's like I burnt my entirelife down sober and so many
times we don't talk about theseunderlying cross addictions that
you know they say that gamblingis a deadly disease, not

(01:40:20):
because you like swallow a pokerchip, but because you'll either
kill yourself or somebody killsyou to um, pay up on those
debts.
Right, you can't actually getout of the hole that you're in.
And he just like has this heartfor helping people because you
know we, we can walk aroundagain acting like everything's

(01:40:40):
fine because I've got rid of thesubstances, but look at that
compulsive behavior that isactually, you know, burning down
my entire life.
That nobody's talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
And you don't even realize it's happening until
it's too late.
That with with, with, withgambling pornography as well.
Yeah, with gambling andpornography.
It's the same slippery slope,right.
You don't know until it's gone.
Alcohol you can.
There's tend to get more clearbecause the dui comes in right,
the wife leaves, right, you loseyour job.

Speaker 3 (01:41:10):
There's signs for you that you're an alcoholic my
wife said I got addicted to godwhen I got sober.
You know just, my wife said Igot addicted to God when I got
sober.
Yeah Well, I got addicted toalcohol.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
When I lost all my weight, when I stopped eating so
much, I got addicted.

Speaker 3 (01:41:21):
I'm a very addictive personality, but like Kat talks
about it, our drives, becausewe're driven.
People in the gym.
For me, sponsorship whatever,I'm always driven.
You do something and if I gotan idea, 100, yep, you know
there's no halfway right andit's just what?
Again it's not halfway.
It's not alcoholism or it's notdrugs anymore.

(01:41:43):
It's good things, but you canstill take it overboard.
You know which I have you knowat times.
But what do you?
What do you want me to do?
Either a bottle or tearing mybody down in the gym, either one
or healthy healthy.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
Kat, you are everything that I imagined,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):
If she's going to stay, I got time.
We got time.

Speaker 3 (01:42:08):
Just questions.

Speaker 2 (01:42:09):
Can I pee really fast .

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Oh honey, I'm about ready to explode right here.
We're out of here.
Thank you for joining us today.
We hope you learned somethingtoday that will help you If you
did not come back next week, andwe'll try again If you like
what we heard.

Speaker 3 (01:42:23):
Give us a five-star review.
If you don't like what youheard, kiss my.
I can't say that, can you itanyway?

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
Thanks, rob.
Come back next week andhopefully something will be
different and something willsink in.
Take care, this has beenRecovery, unfiltered.

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