The Tiger Sleeps But Never Dies

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What no?

Speaker 2 (00:01):
pray.
Okay, all right, heavenlyFather, we thank you for Sean
and Mary.
Father, we ask that you sitwith us.
Father, open our hearts, giveus strength to tell the truth,
give us strength to save a soul.
Father, we ask that everythingwe speak about saves that one
soul that we work so hard to getto.
Father, we praise all these inyour name, amen.

(00:21):
Let's go to work.
What are you reading?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
The Two Powers.
Hi, Rob, how you doing buddy?
Welcome back, prick, I mean Rob.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
God damn it.
What are you reading?
The Two Powers, hi Rob, how youdoing buddy, welcome back,
prick, I mean.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Rob, god damn it, hey , but you notice there's no
toilet mentioned.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
You like that better?

Speaker 1 (00:54):
I love this much better than you sit on the
toilet, don't you Fucker?

Speaker 2 (00:56):
don't use that.
I still got it.
Don't fuck with me.
I still got it.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Not my wife.
No.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
No, you're done with it.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
We're done.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I'm done with it.
I'm not going to take him offof here, though.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
That's fine, because every once in a while or you sit
on the toilet.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Just every once in a while I want to sit on that
toilet, hey.
So we got our guest coming intoday.
He listened to holy shit, Ijust turned myself up way too
loud he just he listened to, um,our McKenna's and Miranda's
story and he, he messaged me onInstagram.

(01:30):
Uh, through that way.
And when he did, I started Iwas like, oh, let's do this guy.
And I saw that he's from thelocal area.
I'm like huh, so I go in to seeall his friends.
And so I get down there alittle ways.
I'm like huh, that's myson-in-law.
So I texted, I sent thatpicture, the screenshot of it,
to Pat, and I go hey, do youknow this guy?

(01:51):
And he goes yeah, he rides thePismo with us all the time.
I'm like well, he just reachedout to me.
Did you know he's sober?
He's like no, so you musthandle that pretty good.
Welcome in.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Come on in guest.
Thank, you.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Uh, I am sean.
I am a professional recovering,alcoholic professional
recovering alcoholic.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
I like that.
No, I just spit out therebecause I know you guys say that
you aren't professional.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
So we ain't no fucking professionals.
I can promise you that.
All right, you shit about us.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
That's professional there are no letters after our
names so tell us a little bit um, yeah, I decided to come.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know, reach out to you um he's nervous a little
bit I know, and get that mic infront of your brother okay,
there you go, that's good okay,um, I decided to reach out to
you.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
Um, I recently reconnected with with my oldest
daughter.
What do you mean by reconnected?
Started talking again.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
Actually, which brought up all kinds of emotions
.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
Listening to your daughters on your podcast.
I don't know Like I saidsomething inside of me, felt
like I needed to tell my story.
Okay, even though I'vedownplayed my story all these
years because I didn't have abunch of death or I didn't, you
know, yeah, a story like mine iskind of a yeah, yeah I drank a

(03:16):
lot and did a lot of drugs,basically.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Hey powder accelerants.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
Those are going to be coming up a lot.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Spalted bottles, powder accelerants Love those
things.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
So yeah, and you know it took you what two weeks to
reach out to me.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, you know what I'm horrible about looking at
messages.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
I was like all right, well, maybe he doesn't want to
no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
I've done the same thing multiple times with other
people.
I'm.
I've done the same thingmultiple times with other people
.
I I'm horrible.
In fact, if any of ourlisteners wants to run my social
media, reach out to me, causeI'd be more happy to let
somebody run that thing.
Yeah, I'm horrible and I missedit, so I apologize.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
No, no, no worries at all.
Thank you for reaching out.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
Um, so I guess I'll start from the beginning.
Um so, I was born in 77 to asingle mother.
My father passed away aboutthree months before I was born.
He was in a motorcycle accidentin La Grange, and then we lived
with my grandparents for acouple years out in Hilmar and
then my mom remarried mystepfather when I was two or

(04:20):
three, somewhere on there, andwe moved to Diné You're out in
Portageville, buddy.
In Hilmar yeah yeah, yeah, notknowing that I would end up back
there, um, but yeah, we movedto denier um, and you know, if
you know, denier, there's gotsome, some rough boys out there
too, right, pretty rough johnnyjohnny's from that area oh yeah,
johnny.

(04:40):
So my stepdad was in Vietnam.
He sprayed um Agent Orange um.
He got sprayed or he did.
He sprayed it.
Okay, yeah, did he get cancer?
uh, he got MS actually yeah, soum he ended up passing in in 85,
um, which really you were youngyeah, yeah, you're still eight,

(05:03):
nine, eight years old yeah, um,and he had been the only father
I knew um in a welch in awheelchair for half the time.
I knew him right, um, but so hewas on 100 military disability,
va disability, um, my momcleaned houses, part-time um,

(05:23):
and I remember my mom would makea weekly trip down to I think
it was called Barrel Inn at thetime in Diné, to pick up four
cases of Schlitz malt liquor.
So, cases back then came infour six packs on a cardboard
flat.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Right.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
But I I distinctly remember those being, uh,
brought into our home on aweekly basis and since he was a
you know a hundred percentdisabled um and in a wheelchair
like that, was their thing,right.
They, they like to drink allthe time, um, which kind of
normalized it for me.
I think.
You know, that's all I saw as akid, so I figured that's,

(06:03):
that's what you do, um, my firstexperience with alcohol was
when I was five on the 4th ofJuly.
I had there was a um we're outin the backyard and I had hit my
head on the Eve of the doghouse, right, and it started bleeding
.
And you know, instead ofputting a bandaid on it or give
me some you know Tylenol orwhatever, Know where this is

(06:26):
going.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Small liquor was the answer right here.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
Take a sip of this.
That's what you do Rub somedirt on the sun.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
We grew up in the 80s , baby.
Come on, that's how we fixed it.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
So for Sean that was 82.
Right Slit some dirt on the kid.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
And like I was telling my wife, like that was
as common as you know, drinkingout of the water hose or you
know, letting the kids run thestreet, ride their bikes
everywhere.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
When you couldn't drink out of the water hose.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah, right, yeah, I wouldn't do that.
So, yeah, it was verynormalized for me.
And when my stepdad passed away, my mom took it pretty hard and
she continued to drink and havehave um, I wouldn't call them
boyfriends, but have people overevery every now and again and

(07:13):
she did end up getting aboyfriend shortly after that.
Um, and he was.
He was an alcoholic right.
He would come home on Sundaysafter golfing and you could just
tell like he was one of thosepeople that just turned bright
red you know, when he drank andslurring his words, which, you

(07:34):
know, it led to arguments in thehouse.
Obviously Right, it always does.
And I distinctly remember onetime he had put his fist through
the, through the kitchen window, because my mom had locked him
out of the house.
And.
I remember hiding in my bedroomand you know, coming out and to
him he cut his arm wide openand you know my mom called the

(07:56):
cops and he was taken to jailand then they got back together,
right, like it was a viciouscycle back and forth and you had
to watch that.
I did.
Yeah, I, I did, and not knowingit different.
Like I said, right, this, thiswas common occurrence, this was,
this was how life was lived.
Um, and hearing stories, youknow, like my uncle flipping his

(08:18):
brand new gto 69 judge on hisroof being drunk, my uncle
getting kicked out of the houseand sleeping in the barn.
You know my grandma going tolook for my grandpa on payday
when he worked at Roy M Days.
Yeah, oh yeah, you know when RoyM Days.
It was a mill, oh yeah, yeah,yeah.
But you hear those stories backthen and you know people

(08:41):
laughed about it, not sayinglike like, oh right, well, maybe
that person had a problem,right right, you don't think
about it like that.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
But my wife's uh grandmother.
When her grandfather made ahome with the check, sometimes
she would time in bed over theweekend so the check would, so
they would have money for foodand stuff.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
So yeah, we laugh now , but yeah wow, you know serious
problems, right, and those arethat generational trauma.
You know that we obviously tryto break, but um, there wasn't a
second thought back in the day.
Um, at least it wasn't in myfamily, um, so I continued on.
My mom dated this guy and mygrandparents were getting up

(09:21):
there in age so, um, she decidedto move back to Hillmar to take
care of them.
Um, and that was my seventhgrade year, I believe.
Um eighth grade I started inHillmar.
You know, a bunch of new peopleleaving all my friends behind.
For for all those years um waskind of hard, but I made some
good friends pretty quickly.
Um, mom was still with this guy, you know.

(09:46):
They finally broke up and shewas single for a little bit and
then got another boyfriendshortly after this guy she had
went to high school with inHillmar.
And, yeah, another alcoholicright, amongst other things.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Was your mom an alcoholic?
She was a drinker.
He's well, I yeah but I justwanted to hear that, because you
, she has, she has a type forsure, right was she?

Speaker 4 (10:14):
yeah, okay, yeah, definitely, um, yeah, and that's
uh, that's a story we'll getinto in a little bit.
I, I think Um.
So yeah, moved.
Um was very close with mygrandparents.
You know, I lived there thefirst couple of years of my life
and then moving back there, andI would always but where did
you move from back to him, Areyou?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
where were you at before you moved back to?
Or you were in dinner, yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
Okay, I was in for eighth grade in hillmore.
Um, yeah, she got this newboyfriend and it was pretty.
Drinking was normalized, asalways.
Um, and then did eighth gradeand then the summer of my
freshman year, um, and I playedbasketball and pop corner, you
know surprise surprise six fourno, but it's tall, he's an inch

(11:02):
taller than me, but he's he'swider than me.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
He has big old shoulders on him Wider down here
.
I wasn't even looking at that.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
So yeah, I did play basketball in Denier and Pup
Warner football in Turlock.
So the summer of my freshmanyear, come to find out I had
basically a birth defect in myleft hip that um needed.
I needed a pin put in it tohold it straight.
It was kind of cockeyed, um.
So the recovery from that wasbasically nine months no body

(11:36):
weight, no kidding, wow, fornine months.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
So cause you were still growing.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:41):
So the first day of my freshman year of high school
I was on crutches, outstandingFor the whole year, right and
that kind of you know no chanceof playing any sports, obviously
.
Kind of an outcast too.
Yeah, yeah, I did have you knowmy my friends that I'd made
from the previous year, myeighth grade year, but um, and

(12:01):
they all played sports and stuff, so I needed another outlet.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Right.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
And that was kind, of you know, self soothing.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
What'd you find?

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Fucking Rob, you get so excited.
Well, what'd you find?
You know?

Speaker 4 (12:18):
there was always beer in my, in my fridge, right In
my mom's fridge, and Schlitz andnot at the.
I think we switched theKeystone.
Oh shit.
Okay, stone light Right.
30, 30 stones, yeah, um, and Ifound that cause they would come

(12:38):
home in the evenings and drinkright around the weekends and
drink.
So I found that if I just tookall the cans out and left the
two beers, the two empty spacesfor the beers that I drank in
the back, and just movedeverything forward, by the time
each one of them went to go getbeers.
You know, it wasn't a secondthought, right.
They wouldn't even know theywere missing.
So that that did work.
For a little while.
I did dabble in, in, in, weed alittle bit, but it wasn't not

(13:04):
for me, man, I don't blame you.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
It's going the wrong direction.
Going the wrong direction, yeah, yeah I don't need that.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
I don't want to come down and didn't even think about
, you know, depression oranything like that at that time,
you know being they weren'teven talked about depression in
the 80s.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, this is probably getting close to 90 now
, yeah yeah, 1990.

Speaker 4 (13:24):
91.
Freshman year of high school.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
They still weren't talking about mental health back
then no, no, and being you know, you were a pussy.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Your freshman year was my senior year.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Where'd you go to school?
Oakdale, oakdale, okay, yeah.
So I continued on that pathpretty much after I got off the
crutches, like lost interest insports.
You know, still had goodfriends that played sports and I
would play with them on theplayground, but not really no

(13:53):
organized sports going on for me, and football was out of the
question because I could not.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
How did your hip heal ?
How did it like your sophomoreyear?
I mean, did it, you was good.
Mobility, full strength uh, no,no.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
No doctor said uh any any large impacts could, could
definitely okay injure it,re-injure it um so the pin's
still in there I got a titaniumhip.
Oh, do you?

Speaker 2 (14:18):
yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard the surgery got it out of
the cracker jack box.
Works like a champ.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
Better mind um, and my, my mom, I think, for the
fact that she knew I didn't havea father and didn't have any
good father figures that thatshe had brought around, she kind
of felt guilty and so I was.
I was a spoiled brat man, likeanything, anything I wanted my

(14:45):
mom so she parented out of guilt.
Yes, definitely, and I can't,you know, I I can't blame her.
Like she did the best she couldwith what she had at the time
and like I said back then, youknow, a lot of these things
weren't talked about and peoplelaughed at these stories and and
didn't really take themseriously.
Um, so she was a cool mom,right, she would end up buying

(15:08):
us beer.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
You know, have your friends over as long as you
drink here, as long as you drinkhere, don't leave Right.

Speaker 4 (15:14):
Knock it out, and that was it.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
I thought that was all that happened at our house,
or not our house, but you know,like in, that was very common
back in the.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
I mean I graduated in 88.
So it was just normal.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
That was normal.
Call you, call, we'll come pickyou up anywhere.
Just don't drink and drive.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah, put your keys over there, yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Make them don't yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
So all the house parties started getting busted
because the parents were doingit.
Now you don't hear about ithappening anymore.
Yeah, anyways.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, but, yeah, but it was common, right, right.
Yeah, it was the culture at thetime, I guess it was it made
them feel like better parents,because they were responsible
for underage drinking.
Cool parents Cool parents.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Well, they thought this is their thinking.
From what I could tell, they'regoing to do it anyway.
Mm-hmm, you know, I knowthey're going to do it.
Yeah, so at least if it'ssomewhat controlled in our home,
we can minimize the damage.
Yeah, that was the thinking.
That's what my parents said.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
Which I get.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, I get the thought behindit, but yeah, my mom used to buy
me condoms.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
I know he's going to do it anyway, and he still has
them.
At least protect yourself.
Sorry, bonnie.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
You only took them off twice, yeah um, so yeah,
that was basically my.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
My high school career was filled with partying and
drinking, right I I once I gotmy license.
Um, when I turned six.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
What did mom buy you?
What are you driving?

Speaker 4 (16:41):
oh so when my, so when my stepdad passed away, we
got a large lump sum.
Both the kids I have astepbrother both the kids and my
mom got a large lump sum.
And my mom was like you know,I'll buy you a truck right now.
You know we'll have it so I canhaul things around and then
when you turn 16 and get yourlicense, you can have the truck.

(17:02):
So many trucks were all therage back then.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
So I had a little Mitsubishi Mighty Max.
Oh yeah, and a big old boy likeyou.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, I really need but the Mighty Max, that's
the one that had the extra cab.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Mine did not have the extra cab.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I had one stolen.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, I did too , but I had it stolen.
Did I say that out loud?

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Hey, statute of limitations is over, you're good
to go.
We got the same thing, chad.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Love did.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
I've done it.
So, yeah, had that truck, youknow, until I turned 16.
And then I got my license and Iwas able to drive it right.
Well, that was freedom.
Yeah, it was freedom and a badidea because I I missed probably
two months of the first threemonths of school because I was
ditching.
I was going, you know, anywhere, cruising you know, going to a

(17:59):
friend other friend's house thatditch school to to drink what
have you, um, and other friendshouse that ditch school to to
drink, what have you?
Um, and I was very good atforging my mom's signature,
that's how.
So I got away with it for solong, right, um, eventually got
caught up.
Right, always get caught up.
And so the solution was to goon independent studies as a
freshman, as a sophomore.

(18:21):
Okay, um, so went onindependent studies, um, which
took very little time right ofmy week.
So I got a job at hillmar lumberokay and you know making that
for 425 an hour minimum wage wasright.
I was balling, but I wasactually, and I was because you
had a job, yeah, yeah, right, um, and I was, you know, hanging

(18:43):
out with, with the older guysthat that had low writers too,
you know what I mean and theyhad a house and we'd go over
there and party and getting beerwas not a problem, right, ever
was never a problem, um, and Ididn't.
I didn't do drugs.
I didn't do drugs, well asidefor dabbling with some weed.
But I didn't do drugs, wellaside for dabbling with some

(19:03):
weed.
But I didn't do drugs until Iwas out of high school.
So it was all all drinking,which was bad enough at the time
, right, um.
So after that, I, I, um, did myindependent studies, was able to
come back for my my junior andsenior year, did have to do some
night school classes to to beable to graduate, right, but all

(19:27):
during that time, you know,still, party, house, everything.
The same um decided to skipsober grad night because it was
sober grad night, right, Ididn't go to disneyland, you
know, rather, uh, rather, justsit home and have some beers
with my buddies, um, after highschool, I was pretty much,
pretty much a shit bag, um, I, Icouldn't hold down a, a, a

(19:51):
steady job.
Nor did I want to.
I worked at a couple liquorstores around, perfect, yeah
right perfect.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
That's so smart, ain't it?
Yeah, I had a buddy who workedat save martin we it was better
than a liquor store.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
So and it worked out good because my buddy that I was
uh friends with from the eighthgrade um had a good connect for
the powdered accelerants yeahoh, yeah, yeah, um.
And so he smoked marlboro red,so white marching powder.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Whatever you want to say, we got to go.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
No, we're good so, um , for my portion you know of of
of paying for the you knowpowdered accelerants was, you
know, a carton of cigarettesthat I'd you know five finger
discounted right the liquorstore at night, you know, and I
helped do the inventory, so itwas no big deal right off the
books it was perfect you'resmarter than most of us.

(20:44):
I don't know, and that I love.
That right Like that made mefeel powerful.
It made me feel like, you know,even though I wasn't the man
that I should have been, it mademe feel like I could be or that
I wasn't right, definitely gaveme that self-confidence going

(21:06):
out, um, and stuff like that.
So, yeah, I can.
I continued on with that.
Um shoot, 19, 20, 21.
My mom, uh, had opened up asmall business in town that I
worked at also Um, and that'swhere it happened to meet my, my
oldest daughter's mom, um, atthat business, and she was a

(21:30):
senior in high school, I believe, um, and I was 21.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Um what kind of started your mom open?

Speaker 4 (21:37):
I was a tanning salon .

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Oh, really, that's about the rage.
Right, it was at the time, yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
And perfect for me to meet somebody, right, yeah
right as they're coming out ofthe tanning booth.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
You need help with that towel Right Great minds
baby.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
Just saying yeah, you're right, and it's still
there to this day.
She sold it off, is it really?

Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, mckenna had a haircutting spot right
there on the corner, rightacross from the road dogs just
down on the corner.
Oh, yeah, yeah, mckenna.
Mckenna, when she first startedcutting hair was in there, yeah
I was in denarii, uh-huh, yeah,yeah yeah, just across the
railroad tracks where the whereis it?

(22:22):
Road dogs?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the hardlyshop.
Yeah, yeah, just down fromthere, on the right on, just on
the other side, but all the wayon the corner where the weed
shop is now oh, is it rightacross yeah, there's a weed shop
there now legally.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
I mean, we're gonna get out of the seller shops.
I don't know son of a bitch.
We missed an opportunity whenthey're gonna legalize that
right right, okay, so you meet,you meet, you meet, uh, your
oldest daughter's mother I metmy oldest daughter's mother.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
Um, you know, I was obviously an alcoholic at the
time, and so we were back andforth um for a few years, um,
and then I couldn't hold down ajob.
I remember I had a constructionjob and I would drive down the
road from my mom's house andwait till she left and then just
drive right back home, right,like I would try to forge my

(23:09):
time cards for this company,right.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Oh, you were doing everything.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
Yeah, yeah, I was doing any anything and
everything to not do anything.
Wow, you're working harder.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
You're working harder not to work hard, not to work.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
It's a lot of work to stay drunk and live.

Speaker 4 (23:26):
I just wanted to party all the time, right Like
just living for the weekend, andhope to have enough money.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
So you never married, or did you?

Speaker 4 (23:35):
No, no.
So this was I was probably 22at the time, never married at
the time, never married.
My mom ended up giving me anultimatum, basically saying you
get a job, hold down a job, oryou join the military Navy yeah,

(23:58):
army.
So I thought about it for awhile.
I was overweight at the time soI had to, you know, run the
canal in a plastic trash bag totry to drop some weight, and
meth didn't help.
Jeez what kind of world.
Are you getting this?

Speaker 3 (24:14):
from I had to slow down.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
You should have came.
I got to, got you, and itwasn't meth at the time Crank,
crank.
Coke, yeah well.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
I switched from crank to Coke Because you started
making more money.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, yeah, because I thought I was a baller Because
I was forging those time cardsright.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
So what year did you go to the?

Speaker 4 (24:30):
service.
I was 23.
It was 2001.
Okay, so, yeah, went to MEPS,did all my stuff and I got to
think about it.
Well, you're going to pay me toget in shape, right, you gotta
pay me not to drink, at leastfor a little bit, you know.
And you're gonna give me, youknow, my meals.

(24:51):
Sure, let's do it.
You know I'm down for some someum, some structure and some
discipline.
Sure, why not?
So I did, uh, basic in southcarolina um six weeks and just
cold Turkey, off of everything,right.
And first, I mean, days were so, so long and filled up with a

(25:14):
bunch of stuff to do you had notime to think about it.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
You were tired when you got back.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, yeah, which was great.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
They kept you tired.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
Right Day one.
And just going in there at 23,.
Right, there's a lot of 18 yearolds that go straight in there.
So I was.
I was one of the older onesthat was in there, so, um, I
don't know why a lot of themlooked up to me for advice, but
they did Um you were seasoned.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
I was not the one at 23.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
Um, so six weeks of basic training got out and then,
um, my mom had flew out forgraduation and the first stop we
make because we've got aweekend pass right, the first
stop we make is to the liquorstore.
Go get me some beer, give mesome smokes, I'm good.
Um, which we're directly told.

(26:02):
You know, don't do this, don'tdo that.
You know, while you're on yourweekend pass, whatever, how are
they going to know?
They ain't going to know.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
And I'm with mom.

Speaker 4 (26:11):
Yeah, I'm with my mommy, right.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
She's going to take care of me.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, which she always did.
So after that I went to AIT inSouth Carolina as well.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
What's AIT?

Speaker 4 (26:24):
Advanced Individual Training.
Okay, so that's where you go tolearn your job, basically
whatever you are.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Navy is called A school, if you have an A school.

Speaker 4 (26:32):
And I was a light wheel vehicle mechanic, so
basically a Humvee mechanic,yeah, and we get weekend passes
there and a lot of kids, a lotof the soldiers would go off
post and sneak cigarettes andalcohol on, which I never really
did.
During that time I was prettydisciplined and focused on

(26:55):
learning my job and trying to gothe straight and narrow as much
as I could.
And then so I was broke up withmy oldest daughter's mom.
At that time your daughterwasn't born yet.
No, okay, no, and this was 2001.
And then, while I was in AIT, Ifound out that her stepdad had

(27:21):
passed away on a motorcycleaccident.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
It was like your dad.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty wild.
So I got to my permanent dutystation, which was Fort Sill,
oklahoma.
Oh nice, not really.
Yeah, I don't know.
You know, yeah, no, everybodywas getting handed out their
permanent duty stations.
Right, people were gettingJapan, hawaii, Japan's nice I've
been there, it out there.
They're permanent duty stationsright.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
People are getting japan, hawaii, japan's nice,
I've been there, hawaii's nice,I've been there.
Shut up, we don't give a fuck.
The navy sent me everywhere.
I loved it with your boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
That's one good thing about the navy, though, right,
you're in the port everywhere.
Yeah, um, and they called myname and said fort seal,
oklahoma, fort Sill, oklahoma.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
I was like shit, Might as well go back to the
mayor.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
Right, pretty much Um , but yeah, I got there, you
know, tried to make the best ofit.
Um, around three or four weeksof me being there, nine 11
happened and before that youcould drive on and off post.
There was nobody at thesecurity stations, right, and it
was complete lockdown afterthat, Like they had the dogs,
they had the mirrors Checkingunderneath vehicles.

(28:32):
It would take you forever toget off post and come back on,
which was pretty much like COVIDwas recently right, Isolated to
the barracks.
You know what?
I mean.
So that's what we did.
Those barracks days were werewild how long did this?

Speaker 3 (28:46):
I mean how long were you in after that?
Because I mean how like this iscurious when cook because I was
out of the military by the time9-11 happened how long did they
have you on lockdown?
How long did that go on?

Speaker 4 (28:56):
oh, it was a good six months okay yeah, good, six
months of yeah, and not that wecouldn't go off post, it would
just took so long to get back on, it wasn't worth it.
Right, like we would go offpost um sunday mornings to pick
up our uniforms that we'd dropoff at the, at the cleaners,
right, and we would.
We would wait till till laterin the day because during the

(29:17):
day it was just, it was hecticlike to try to get back on post
and so we pretty much stayed inthe barracks.
You know, bought, bought beerat the PX, you know what I mean
and and did our thing.
And we had one of the soldierswas from Oklahoma city and his
primary job was a drug dealerthere.

(29:39):
Right, so, he would go.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Perfect, so you didn't get drug tested.
Did you guys get drug tested?

Speaker 4 (29:45):
That's coming up.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
God damn it, rob.
Shut up, let the man tell hisstory.
Go ahead, fuck.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
So on the weekends he would go home to Oklahoma City
and bring back softballs of CokeRight, nice, Nice and my best
friend lived off post so hewould keep it at his house so he
didn't have to bring it on post.
I'll figure it out yeah, and soI would go over my buddy's
house.
Um, he lived off post becausehe got married to, to one of our

(30:18):
friends, anoki.
Uh, she was a.
She was a captain's daughter, Ithink, yeah, so nice um, so yeah
, I would go over there and on acoffee table just like this one
, just to you know chop it up,baby, chop it up there's a razor

(30:39):
blade right there and just goto town.
So we had some, some wild nights, uh, to say the least.
Um, and then I was put on gymdetail, which was great, right,
like they take you out of.
I got taken out of the motorpool and you're going to go, you
know, wipe down, you knowworkout equipment for six months

(30:59):
, which was great.
I got to work out, playbasketball, stuff like that, um,
but, that being said, you get alittle bit more lax oh yeah
right, like oh well, they can'tdo nothing to me and for some
reason, like I didn't have to goto this drug test, that there

(31:20):
was no mandate saying if you'reon gym detail, you have to go to
this drug test.
I just remember my roommatewaking me up that morning saying
, hey, we have to go piss, and Ijust went, you know, not
thinking that two days prior youknow I got fucked up, right, so
went and took the piss test andlike a week goes by I'm like,

(31:42):
oh fuck, you know I should befine, not with cocaine brother.
I'm like, oh, fuck you know Ishould be fine Not with cocaine,
brother, I'm in the clear right.
So I'm at the gym one day andone of my sergeants from the
motor pool comes down and saysStaff Sergeant Williams wants to
, wants to see you, like allright, it's like fuck.

(32:04):
I was fuck, I was shitting,shitting bricks man, what the
fuck?
Um pulls me in his office.
So you know what the fuck.
What are you doing?
You're doing drugs and denial,right oh?
yeah I ain't admitting toanything.
Um, denied, denied, deny.
Went and seen the firstsergeant denied it.
Um, and then CID came into thepicture.

(32:25):
So the criminal investigationdepartment, we find out.
You're lying to us Like youcould do.
Time, yeah.
Military time Okay, I did it, Idid it.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
I ain't going to prison.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
You know, kick me out , I ain't doing it.
Um, and I don't know how muchof that was a bluff, you know
what I mean.
Like I popped hot on a drugtest, like right, but at the
time it scared the shit out ofme like no, I ain't doing that
um you would suck at gettingwaterboarded, just saying I
would, I would, I would.

(33:03):
I ain't denying it.
Um, so yeah, they, they.
They bumped me down uh paygrade.
So I went through from E4 to E3, um 45 and 45.
So 45 days restriction, 45 daysextra duty.
Um, that included weekends.
Like you go do your regular jobyou know, and then you know 46

(33:26):
hours more after that.
Good job, and I could havestayed in um.
I would have had to switchunits, obviously, but I could
have stayed in what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (33:35):
obviously, why would they make you switch units um
just to break up where you'regetting the drugs from?
Or?

Speaker 4 (33:41):
that's a good question.
I don't know why I saidobviously, but I guess yeah I
mean yeah, yeah, yeah to tobreak you away from the,
probably the group you'rehanging out with, man that yeah,
they could have kicked him outright then.
Right, yeah, they could have,yeah, you know um, but you know,
I was a, I was a good soldier.
Up until that point, um neverhad any problems, so and it cost
a lot of money to train us.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
So it's they don't.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It costs a lot of money forthose humvees too, but they're
pieces of shit, um, and so letme backtrack a little bit,
because my my um oldest mom waspregnant with with her at the

(34:25):
time, so you had to have beenhome, on leave somewhere, yeah.
I came home on leave, conceivedmy oldest daughter.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Conceptually.

Speaker 4 (34:35):
Yeah, so we had gotten back together.
Right, I'm sorry I skipped thatwhole, trying to put the past
week like I was shitting'm.
I wanted to wing this wholething, and You're talking about
the podcast, right?

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Cause I knew about it for a little while and Mary's
like what's your plan?

Speaker 4 (34:54):
And I'm like what do you mean?
She's like do you?
Do you know the timeline?
Do you know what you're goingto say?
I'm like oh yeah, I'm justgonna, I'm just gonna wing it
Right.
She's like I don't think that'sa good idea.
So literally this past week,I'm like I just started typing
and literally four pages of whatcame, you know, vomited out of

(35:15):
my head.
Um went out there.
So it's helping me remember alittle bit, but timeline still
gets a little screwed up.
So, um, before any of my gets alittle screwed up, so, um,
before any of my you know, thedrug test and all that happened.
Um, I came home on leave andgot back together with with my

(35:37):
oldest mom, um, and then sheactually came out to to Fort
seal.
We went to the mall, um pickedout a wedding set, so we got
engaged, right.
A little time had passed.
I came home on leave again, gother pregnant.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
So you, were getting a wedding.
You were planning a weddingbefore she got pregnant.
Yes.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
Okay, yeah, all right , yeah, which I was very bad at
right, like I didn't communicatea lot Um, and she broke.
She broke it off with me, um,when we were just planning to
get married and I didn't knowshe was pregnant at the time.
Okay, she knew she was pregnantat the time.
And in talking to to my mom, uh,kind of put it in my head Well,

(36:24):
this could be a possibility whyshe's doing this and I wasn't
actively helping plan thewedding or anything like that.
Um, so, come to find out shewas pregnant.
Um, I was.
I was heartbroken, I was.
I had to go to mental health.
Uh, while I was in the militarycause, I couldn't stop crying.
I had to go to mental healthwhile I was in the military,

(36:45):
because I couldn't stop cryingWow, I took it really hard and
you know, looking back at it now, it was you still didn't know
at that time that she waspregnant.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
No, okay, I did not.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
I did not.
I didn't find out till later.
I actually called her and askedher and it didn't change
anything at the time.
And it didn't change anythingat the time.
And then I came back home onleave again for a weekend pass.
So I had my mom, I had a 68Chevelle that I left back and I

(37:17):
had my mom sell it for $2,500 soI could buy a plane ticket and
fly back home.
Fuck, are you kidding me?
No, for $2,500, so I could buya plane ticket to fly back home.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 4 (37:24):
No, it wasn't the first car.
I had a 67 Tempest also.
That was a beautiful car that Iwrecked.
But that's yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
In hindsight boy yeah, can't doanything now, no.
So yeah, I had my mom sell thatcar so I could buy a plane
ticket to come back home andkind of try to reconcile um with

(37:48):
with my oldest mom and itworked Like we got back together
, um, and then all this stuffhappened.
I popped up hot on the drugtests in the military and the
reason I didn't stay in isbecause of that.
Right Like, I wanted to getback home to to see my daughter
and be with her mom, um, sothat's the reason why I chose

(38:09):
chose to get out.
Um, so I came back home inNovember of 20, uh, 2003, um,
back to my, my mom's house, um,you know, seeing my, my daughter
, um, on a regular.
I mean, me and her mother weretogether at the time, but my mom

(38:30):
had lived out in crow's landingat the time, um, yeah that's
West side baby.
Um.
So I remember we went to thebar right Me and my mom would
would go out to the bar and goparty.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Now she had a drinking buddy.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, her drinking buddy was back and it
was an older home so it had,like, the wall heaters right
behind her bedroom door and wecame home from the bar one night
smashed and she turned that onand opened her door and she had
her robe or whatever hangingback there and it just went up.
It went up so quick in flamesand I remember being drunk

(39:12):
trying to put this shit out witha pitcher of water, right like
and the water logical and thenthe water went out because it
was hooked up electrically,right to the water, to the pump
andthere was no more water.
I'm like we're fucked, likelet's get out.
So the whole house went up.
Um, yeah, lost, lost prettymuch everything Um came back

(39:38):
came back to to nothing,basically, um, it was we were
lucky to get out of the housewith our lives so I was thankful
for that.
Um stayed in a 26 foot trailerum for the next month.
Luckily, somebody at my mom'swork um had a trailer, had a
little bit of property, sostayed in a yeah, stayed in a

(40:00):
trailer with my mom for for amonth until she could.
And you lost your clothes, youreverything.
Yeah, we tried to watch them.
I remember being at the laundry.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I forget what you call thatstuff, but it's supposed to get
out the the burnt smell.
No, it ain't coming.
No, no, where's it going I?

Speaker 2 (40:22):
don't know, but you're a 27 foot trailer, right?

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, yeah, um, so the landlord my mom was renting
um this house from had anotherrental in in Turlock, so we
ended up moving there.
Um, I had gotten a job as a asa mechanic at the local
dealership there in Turlock.
Um, and kind of a prerequisitefor being a mechanic back in

(40:48):
those days, right you?
Did dope, like you know what Imean like whether you're, you're
, yeah right, seems normal.
I thought so like a truck driverso made a good buddy there that
was.
That was heavily into it and Ijust you know we connected on
that level because were you withyour?

Speaker 2 (41:08):
were you with your girlfriend at the time?
This is off and on, but yourdaughter's born my daughter's
born.

Speaker 4 (41:14):
Okay, yeah, and I would primarily pick my daughter
up, um, from her grandfather'shouse on on the weekends, um,
every other weekend.
Her mom worked nights onFridays, um, so she stayed at
her grandpa's house and I gopick her up.
But, yeah, that went on for alittle while, um, and then my

(41:36):
her mom got married, um, so mydaughter had a stepdad.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Um how old was your daughter, oh ballpark.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
Three Somewhere in there.
So I was still living at mymom's new rental interlock um
back and forth on jobs Like they.
Let me go from the from thedealership Missing work, huh.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Missing work.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
Missing work.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Um, and my, my buddy the one that was in it with me
tried to cover for me.
It didn't work.
Um, I remember reapplying forthere, um, and popping hot on a
drug test and the servicemanager was like what is wrong
with you?

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Wait six months Right .

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, um, I think that's why I like going through
um checkpoints now right yeah,it's like look at me yeah, no
shit, right, I ain't got shit onme.
No um, please pull me over,yeah yeah, um, where was I going
?

Speaker 4 (42:40):
looking stepdad, stepdad yes, um, so my, my
daughter had a stepdad.
Now um, her mom got married.
I was not providing insuranceum for my daughter and she she
needed insurance on her.
So I remember my um, my ex um,calling me up and asking if I

(43:03):
would be willing to have herstepdad adopt her.
Saw that one coming Forinsurance purposes and me being,
you know, not thinking, clearly, not saying, oh well, you know,
no matter what, I'll put her onmy insurance, you know, I don't
care.
I took it as she was attackingme and threatening me.

(43:25):
So I basically told her well,maybe, if that's the route you
want to go, maybe my daughter'sI'm better off staying out of
her life, and that I tried to uh, I tried to remember exactly

(43:50):
how it went down.
I can't, but I specificallyremember saying those words.
So after that I didn't reallysee my daughter at all.
I didn't really see my daughterat all, and I remember being

(44:14):
there for her, her kindergartengraduation.
That was the last time I reallyremember seeing her and I was
sober.

(44:38):
So she's about six, six, yeah,um, and I have a picture that I
look at that reminds me, and youknow, I would talk to her mom,
um, every now and again and askto speak with my daughter, and
she didn't want to.
She don't want to speak me.
She told her mom that she couldsend me pictures to see her,
but she didn't want to speakwith me At that young age.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
She she saying that already.
Wow, yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, and I wouldn't be told till just recently that
you know.
I found out how mature she isnow I can imagine she was.
She was a pretty smart kid,right.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Can we take a break?
Absolutely, absolutely,absolutely Hi back from break.
Here we go all right.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
So, um, yeah, I'd see my daughter graduate um
kindergarten.
Um after that I was.
I was pretty much non-existentin her life.
Um, I took some comfort inknowing that she had a great mom
and a stepfather Now let me askyou a question.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
That's because when we people like us, you know when
we start to justify,rationalize and minimize, you
know we're lying to ourselves.
You know you can't replace dad.

Speaker 4 (46:05):
No, you can't.
But but.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
But I get.
But I get your point.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, in my addiction.
Like I was thankful that shehad some kind of stability right
, like I couldn't give it to her, so I'm glad she was able to
get it, you know, with her mom.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Couldn't, they Couldn't give it to her or
wouldn't give it to her.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
I wouldn't.
Obviously, the choices that Imake, the horrible choices that
I made, were the reason why Ifelt like I couldn't give it to
her the questions we were askingoff camera yeah go.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
I don't want to interrupt his story as long as
it's all a part of this storybut I was telling, having
sponsored you know how many, howmany men over the years, and
lots of men and a few women.
I told him what the child isthinking, you know, when she
didn't want to have speak to herfather.
This is just what they havetold me.
You know.
They feel rejection,abandonment, and it's kind of
it's her only power, that shehas to get back at you.

(47:09):
But she wants dad.
You can't replace a daughter anda father.
You know that, thatrelationship.
But because there's certaintimes when the daughter needs a
father and then then then kindof gravitates to the mother as
they get older, like the son andthe, the mother, yeah, but
rejected, abandonment, and she'swondering what did I do to push
my father away?

(47:29):
Is there something I did?
Yeah, that's what's goingthrough her mind at that time.
So the only power she has, no,I don't want to speak to him
because I'm gonna get back athim and see I, I blamed her mom
um for that right, of course,yeah, you're keeping her from me
, all right, not thinking thatyou know my daughter huge
resentment think for herself.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
You know, even at that age you know not to not
could think for herself.
You know, even at that age.
You know not to not to want tosee me Um got one more question,
there's another.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
there's three men I'm thinking of that that were in
your exact situation.
One thing they regretted asthey got, got sober and worked
their steps Now the their bloodis carrying someone else's name.
That that was.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
I've never heard it put that way yeah, well, that
they.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Well, that's how they put it powerful yeah, you know
the decisions we make, right,you know that you can't undo no
so go ahead um, so yeah, so whatwas I okay?
She was about six.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Yeah, after graduation you didn't really see
her yeah, didn't really see herum and I I I was bouncing at a
bar interlock um finally usingyour size.
I appreciate that right, justjust you know, stop working at
the liquor store as a mechanic.
Actually, I got laid offbecause I moved from a

(48:54):
dealership interlock to adealership in Newman at the time
that our service manager wentthere, so I was working over
there.
Times were bad.
I think Obama was in office.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Times were definitely bad.
Well, they were bad for me,right.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Right.
So the dealership you knowmechanic industry really took a
hit on it.
So I got laid off um somehowused my EDD and and went to
school for a certificate programum in web and graphic design.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Good thinking.

Speaker 4 (49:26):
Wow, Um, yeah, yeah, I managed up, you know to, to
get some kind of, you know,discipline and structure Um out
of that um, still living with mymom working at the, at the bar,
being a bouncer at night on theweekends, you know, quick, easy
money.
Um, that's how I met my, mynext girlfriend, Um, she was

(49:51):
there one night and needed aride home and I was closing up,
so you know, to the rescue, yeah, to the rescue, right, um,
probably the most toxicrelationship that I that I had
had.
Um, that's saying something,yeah, yeah.
And she and she was a, she wasa little Mexican, right, um,

(50:12):
coming from that culture.
And one good thing she did getme out of my mom's house.
So, moving out of my mom'shouse for this first time at 33
years old, outside of themilitary, right, um, what a
fucking loser.
Um, that's saying it out loud,I'm saying it out loud.
We moved to Modesto actuallythe same house that I ended up

(50:34):
buying, that we own now.
We moved there when it was arental.
Yeah, I got a job at a placeover off of Graphics Drive in
Modesto, using your education,yes, yes, um, trying to build up
to that.
Um, I was a, I was a dye maker,so we, uh, you know, did a lot

(50:58):
of dyes for, for psc and and andthose type of companies.
So, yeah, I worked from one inthe afternoon until 1 in the
morning.
I did not have a vehicle at thetime because I wrecked my Tahoe
right, Drunk, obviously, no DUI.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
No DUI, thank God.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
I never had a DUI right.
I thank the Lord every day thatI did not have a DUI and never
went to prison.
So when I was in the military,to backtrack a little bit.
So when I was in the military,backtrack a little bit, I did,
um, I had a buddy in thebarracks who had a vehicle, who
would um, get deployed every nowand then and leave me his
vehicle, said do not, do nottake it out of state.

(51:40):
What's the first thing I did?
I met.
I met some, some chick, youknow, the couple weeks prior
because he lived, uh, his fatherlived, in amarillo.
So yeah, first thing I did wasfucking buy a 12 pack and hop in
that fucking truck and off Iwent right.
Um, what state did you go?
To texas?

Speaker 3 (52:00):
texas yeah, yeah don't you fucking listen hey,
just because he said texasdoesn't mean that's where he
went I only knew because texasis close yeah, I was headed
there.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
I made it into texas, um, I just remember driving I
was drinking, driving, of course, um, and they were doing road
construction and they had theyellow cones, um all on one side
of the road and I was justconvenient.
Bam, bam, bam, bam, oh shit,bam, bam, bam, oh shit.
Um, thinking it's mario brotheryeah, apparently it knocked out
one of the headlightsheadlights so I had stopped at a

(52:31):
gas station about halfway in mytrip to get some beef jerky no
headlight no headlight, did notknow it.
Well, the clerk at theconvenience store had called the
cops on me because she couldsmell the alcohol.
Bitch, how fucking Karen, howyou, yeah.

(52:52):
Um.
So about five miles down theroad I get pulled over um, but
it was more than the smell oh,I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure I
was slurring my words andstumbling everywhere but you're
a soldier, yeah, yeah, yeah,come on, um, and this was on a
friday night, right?
so, um, yeah, I get pulled over.
They find the you know a couplebeers left in the 12 pack.

(53:15):
Um, take drinks low I do.
They take me to armstrongcounty jail.
Um, thank god it was full.
Um, they could not take methere, so they took me back to
where the clerk had called thecops and this was in Claude,

(53:36):
texas, great great town, right,sounds like it.
Yeah, claude, claude, texas.
So they take me to the localjail there and you know, I thank
God every day they didn't takeme to Armstrong County Jail,
because it was a lot.
They walked me in I could see.
You know what it looked like.
Like Claude County Jail wasmore like, you know, deputy

(53:59):
Dewey, you know what I mean.
Was Otis there.
They had one other, you know,prisoner there that they let me
make a sandwich for for lunchthe next day.
Let me wash the cop car forcigarettes.
I'm like this is, this is allright.
If I had to run this prison,this jail, I think I could um.
So yeah, and but getting back,right, like I had to be at pt um

(54:24):
at 6 am monday morning, right,and I was not going to be
arraigned until monday, you know, whenever the judge came in um
and they let me go, like becauseyou're the service, I said hey,
I gotta be back at this time.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
I took a bus oh man, what'd you do with your buddy's
pickup, impounded I gotimpounded.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
Yeah, I had to let him know when I got back um
that'd be fun at least it wasclose, you know, to amarillo, so
you know he was going that wayanyway.
Um, yeah, it was.
It was horrible.
I had to take a bus back.
I made it back about four inthe morning.
Um, monday morning went to thepx, bought a fucking beer yeah,

(55:10):
level out, baby, down that beerbefore I went to pt.
Uh, I remember standing in lineof pt and my motor sergeant
just fucking looks at me andshakes his fucking head.
He's like.
He's like what the fuck are youdoing?
I'm here for pt.
He's like what the fuck are youdoing?
I'm here for PT.
So I'll come, come with me.

(55:31):
Took me to the motor pool and,yeah, um had the, the soldier
that I took his truck there, um,and I really didn't get in
trouble.
Like I got in troubleinternally, you know no
consequences, no consequences,so uh got off the hook for that
one, I don't know how, um youknow, no consequences.
Yeah, no consequences.
So uh, got off the hook forthat one.
I don't know how, um you know,the lord watching me knew he had

(55:56):
bigger and better plans for me.
I guess, um, all right, kind ofgot sidetracked with that
backtracking it's all right, um,good story.
Yeah, I thought so, you were,you were gonna grab it, one of
those.
It's one of those ones that youknow after I left that I would
have um.
Yeah, we're working um over atcontainer graphics Um 1.

(56:20):
Pm to one 1.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
AM to 1.
Pm.
You said one to one.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
Yeah, one to one, uh, 12 hour shifts.
I didn't have a vehicle becauseI had wrecked it right, um, and
so I was riding a bike to where.
It was about seven miles, youknow yeah through modesto.
Um, you know, now looking back,you know if you don't, if you
ride a bike for anything otherthan exercise, it's kind of,
especially at 33 years old.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, you've made some bad life.
You've made some bad lifechoices.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
Yeah, yeah but at the time, you know know, this is
perfect, I'm getting exercise,no, so I would ride my bike.
Every day In the morning,though, I'd wake up and ride my
bike to the liquor store and geta three-pack of tall cans.
You know I had to level out,because you weren't learning
your lesson from riding thatbike.
No, no, it was a good thing.

(57:08):
Know the feeling, um.
And then obviously you know allthe all the beer and um that I
drank after work.
But I would have to wait.
I would have to call and hopesomebody was up at the house to
give me a ride home at 1 amright right otherwise I was

(57:28):
riding my bike home at 1 am inModesto like um yeah, that
wasn't fun.
Um, yeah, convinced mygirlfriend at the time to use
her income tax money to fix myvehicle and and get it out of
the shop.
Um, so then I had wheels again,which was great, dangerous, but

(57:49):
great, dangerous, but greatRight, and it was like it was
fixed to be drivable, right.
Both airbags were fucking blownLike I was taped them up.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
Fuck it you know what I mean?
I can't afford fucking.
I ain't ride that bike.
No, fucking more.
Tape them up, let's go.

Speaker 4 (58:05):
And she remembers that vehicle.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
I had it when, when we met who's she?
Oh, my wife mary hi mary.

Speaker 5 (58:14):
Oh shit, sorry say it again that vehicle lived a very
short fucking life welcome inmary.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
She comes in with the fuck right off the get-go.

Speaker 4 (58:25):
I love her already uh , the AC did not work in that
thing, Like my AC was 465, right.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Windows down All four windows down driver 65.

Speaker 4 (58:37):
But yeah, I convinced her to use her income tax money
to get that fixed.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
This was little Hispanic, yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
Yes, yes, yes, and you know, I was heavily drinking
during that time and I remember.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Any powdery cylinders ?
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
She had family members that would help out with
that.
You know some that had been inprison, some had been in and out
of the system.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Good stuff, find that balance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the balance,just enough.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
And that might have been why I stuck with her so
long right the benefits Come.
That might've been why I stuckwith her so long right the
benefits, um.
But, um, she finally got, so Ileft that job.
I got a a pretty damn good,decent job.
Um, I'm still with the companytoday.
So I started up pretty much atthe bottom as an operator, um,

(59:27):
with this company and, um, we'reworking 12 hour days and I was
loving it, like you know.
Give me that give me that moneyright, great money money um you
got energy, not that yeah andyeah, there were some scares too
.
They're like three weeks in.
I had had a forklift incident ohsure, and luckily I did not do

(59:51):
enough powdered accelerant theweekend before for it to pop hot
on me, because that would havebeen my my third drug test that
I popped on.
I was, yeah, somebody's lookingout for me, um, but yeah, so I
I stayed with her, like I said,maybe because you know, I was
getting the benefits from herfamily and I paid for a lot,

(01:00:15):
like I was making a lot of money, but her, being old school,
traditional, like I had to payfor the rent I had to pay for,
you know, and she had two kidsthat lived with us and I
remember when her son graduated,they had a party in the garage,
right, um, and the next morningthey left all their liquor out

(01:00:37):
and all their booze out, right,and party I drank.
I drank it and then filled thebottle up with water, thinking
that who?
The fuck were you hiding itfrom?
Her son, her son, oh um, and hecalled me out on my bullshit
and I, I denied, denied, denying, and he didn't believe me,
which he shouldn't have no, heknows better yeah, um, yeah, and

(01:01:01):
it's just yeah.
That was a common occurrencetoo, for is even when I was
younger, like I don't know ifyou guys remember the, the
baseball bat bottles uh the.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
Coors and Coors Light ones.
Yep, yeah, I was a whiskeydrinker, but I still remember
those.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:15):
Well, those were, you know, mantle decorations in in
my mom's house growing up Right,yeah, unopened, and I tried to
drink one of those things likefive or six years after, after
they put right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Oh god, that was horrible, oh yeah, um, yeah, uh,
she was finally fed up.
Yeah, katie's here.
Let's just take another quickbreak, guys, then we'll get to
it this.
I've been waiting for heryou're good, because uh, yeah,
yeah, where were we at?

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
we were at uh gay bar , what the fuck oh, your
hometown, the rainbow.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
We'll get there perfect uh, we were at my, my ex
little oh yeah yeah, mexicangirlfriend um well, he almost
popped, you know, you almostpopped on your third, you almost
popped but you did it.
God give the glory, and thenwe're here.
So yeah how old are you at thisage?

(01:02:20):
Where are you at right now?

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
this was 2000, you got a good job.
You're still with that companytoday, so yeah 2013 is when I
got hired there um, so thatwould put me at 30 but yeah,
that's good 34, 35, 34, 35somewhere in there right,

(01:02:43):
finally getting my life togetherbut yeah, well, well, yeah,
pieces, I mean, let's be honestthere's a piece of place but
you're still doing dope andyou're still drinking, so not
all the pieces are in place.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Definitely 34, 35 years old.
Yeah, how old were you whenyour daughter was born?

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
Your oldest, I was 25 , I think I joined the Army in
2001.
I was 23.
She was born in 2003, so I was25, yeah so this is 10 years now
yeah you know, 10 years.
10 years passed and I remembermy like I guess she wasn't all

(01:03:22):
bad, she, she would reach out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
She had reached out to my daughter's mom the
hispanic, your hispanicgirlfriend, because they're big
on family yeah, advocating forme and my daughter's mom, the
Hispanic, your Hispanicgirlfriend.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Well, cause they're big on family.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Yeah, advocating for me and my daughter's mom was
like like I really appreciatethis, but I'm not hearing it
from from Sean Right.

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
She's right.
Right, she's got it right Ahundred percent.
Why would I have, you know, whywould I trust that if I was her
mother?
Um, yeah, yeah, in hindsightnow it's stupid, but um, so I
guess she wasn't.
She wasn't all bad, but, likeyou said, you know the family
and and the culture.
Um, so yeah, food I wish Inever got a homemade tortilla
not once not once yeah shouldhave ran right but the dope was

(01:04:06):
coming.
Um so like 2014,.
She was pretty much done withyou.
Right up with my shit.
Yeah, and I could care less.
Like I wanted my freedom, Iwanted her out of the house.
I just wanted to make my owndecisions and be my own man,

(01:04:28):
cause that's always worked outso good in the past, right?
Um, so she, finally, she gother stuff and moved out.
Um, and I think she wasexpecting some type of reaction
out of me and I didn't give itto her.
Um, so, yeah, that pissed heroff even more.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
It validated her decision.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
Pissed off a latina that ain't good, she was batshit
crazy, yeah well, she laidhands on me.
So oh, wow, yeah, yeah, wowright into people, just wild,
wild shit that's who we pick,usually when we're in that space
.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
Yeah and I'm a lover.
I'm not a fighter.
I've never laid a hand on awoman at all, so even in my you
know addiction, but um, but yeah, she was fed up, so she I tried
to get.
I remember I tried to get theday off of work the day she was
moving out, cause I knew she wasgoing to take everything.
And sure enough, um, somebodyelse in my department had the

(01:05:25):
day off, um, so I could not getit off.
And I was like, oh, I knowshe's stripping the house right
now as I'm at work, and sureenough she'd she had taken
everything, um, which you know,it was what it was.
Looking back now, these you knowold ass TVs and old couch,
don't make you know right, right, um and a bed and stuff like

(01:05:54):
that, and I had some friendsthat it'll probably be better
that you'd not be there becauseof what could have taken place,
you know.
So, yeah, yeah, god, god lookedout for you again, right um,
and I hadn't been like, I hadn'thad a steady drug habit, but
here and there, right um, it'snever too late.
But now, god damn it, rob.
Now it was fucking on, rightlike I had.
Now it's on.
Now it's on.
Now it's on.
I had a good job, good payingjob.
I had a vehicle.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Don't drug test.

Speaker 4 (01:06:14):
Freedom.
I had my own house.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
Oh, come on.

Speaker 4 (01:06:17):
Yeah, let's go.
And I remember specifically Ihad hit up one of my now exes
family members because I knew hedealt, and I remember
specifically asking him hey, doyou have any white lady?
And at the time he said no, I'mall out, but I have the other,

(01:06:42):
yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe I was like fuck it, allright, let's do it.
And that sent me on a path.
The meth, the meth Fuck, yeah,fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Rob, that's the other .

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
That's the other buddy.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
And I remember, because Mary was reading it,
because we were going over this,what I've written down.
She's like what does this mean?
Like what is this what?

Speaker 5 (01:07:02):
is the other.
I'm like that's wildMethamphetamines.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:07:05):
This comes from a girl who's never smoked a joint.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
Right, it's come from a girl who's never smoked a
joint.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Right.
Yeah nothing, no, he's donethis and that's a nerve.
I'm like what the fuck is goingon.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Who even wants that?

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
So yeah, just partying all the time and I
didn't put it out there, like Ididn't do it with a lot of
people.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
But this is coming to the end, though, for you.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Yeah, yeah yeah, it happened quick within the last
hurrah within a year, Like I wasyeah, it was burning the candle
.
Yeah, oh, definitely Umsleepless nights, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Okay, I got to ask questions I was talking about
this with.
I was up with over the weekend,me and my wife went with Jason
and Kim.
We're talking about this goingover all, cause we have the same
history, you mean.
I mean, if you can't, how muchof his story do you hear in mine
?
You know, oh, a lot, oh, forsure, the military, all that
stuff.
So this I'm we're going offtangent here.
When you were after a couple ofdays, what would you see?

(01:08:06):
I used to see alligatorscrossing the road.
When, I would you know, after acouple sleepless days I would.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
I would hear helicopters like they're flying
over my house right now, likeyou couldn't tell me they
weren't the ghetto birds outthere, and it's.
They're coming for me.
They know, they can see whatthe hell I'm doing yeah, they're
a lot more watching rooftopsand everything yeah, I'm glad I
never I'm paranoid enougheverybody's got this.
I appreciate that that was mine.

(01:08:30):
Yeah, um, yeah, just just fullforce man on a weekly basis.
I was, you know, getting one totwo teeners a week.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
Um, they're making it to work.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Yeah, making it to work you know, even came up with
a side hustle.
So I used my, my graphic designum printing out templates, uh,
doing rustic, rustic wood art,you know, california flag, usa
flag, stuff like that and Iwould tweak on that shit and
fucking and bust some shit out.
And I started wholesaling to alocal, uh, local store in

(01:09:03):
Turlock.
Um, so they give me, you know,obviously not what, what it's
worth, but it's getting my youknow my product out there and
giving me some money in mypocket, right, which which I
needed more of, cause I neededmore dope to the vicious circle.
I don't know why I did it, um,so I did that for cause we're
insane, yeah, yeah, it'sinsanity, yeah, um, I did that

(01:09:26):
for a little while and, and Iremember the night that I'd
probably been up for two daysalready and I was scrolling on

(01:09:47):
my phone and on Facebook and youknow, sometimes you'll come
across the stories on Facebooklike a post or whatever Um, and
I remember scrolling and it wasa letter that I had written I'm
hallucinating, right Um, it wasa letter that I had written um
telling all my friends how muchI take advantage of them and and
never really loved anybody, andit was written from a place of

(01:10:13):
pride.
It wasn't from a place ofpouring my heart out for
forgiveness.
It was prideful.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Wow, you fools, you're hallucinating all this, I
am, I am.
Wow, you fools, you'rehallucinating.

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
I am, I am and I remember scrolling more and
getting subliminal messages.
You know that would saydifferent things, like I
consider myself an artist, right, like making these things, and
things would just pop up.

(01:10:49):
That would downplay you knowwhat I thought of myself and I
was like what the fuck, what thefuck's going on.
You know, like where is this?
Where indeed, yeah I'm, I'mhallucinating Like this is
scaring me.
I immediately took what I hadand flushed it down the toilet.
That's how I'm done.

(01:11:09):
Took what I had and flushed itdown the toilet, that's how I'm
done.
I'm done.
Doing dope, um, because mydrinking at that time, because
you know, doing dope, like I'llset this can over here, full
beer, right, go fucking tweakout on something.
Forget about it.
Go open another one, take a sip, set that one there.
So the garage was just full offucking full beers.
So my drinking, yeah, it wasthere, but this was more present

(01:11:33):
.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Yeah, I say, it took second nature, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
And we thought that that was our problem.
Yeah, the dope's the problem,the beers are.
You know, the alcohol is nevera problem.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
That was my thought process.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
You're telling my story.

Speaker 4 (01:11:47):
kid, I love it so, after I quit and I was, and that
was it.
I was, you know, dead set, LikeI did not touch it, but I
started fucking drinking heavily.
I had to replace it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
But, you don't realize it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
No, you don't realize it, what you've just done, yeah
.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Just beer.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
Come on, realize it, but you don't realize it that
you do what you've just done.

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
Yeah, just beer.
Um, come on, unless I was goingout like I would, I would make
jaeger bombs a drink, you know,it's like right, um, get there
faster.
Yeah, little little shots.
And you know, drink some cokeout of the bottle pour the shot
in there if I was goingsomewhere.
Um, but primarily beer, um, andI, I like beer, I like the

(01:12:37):
taste of beer, right even now sodid I.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
I'll buy.
I was a beer drinker, he's abeer lover, yeah I'll buy hops
water, okay, um you know whichis what's that?
What's that?
What's that?

Speaker 4 (01:12:45):
just non-alcohol okay , yeah, I mean zero, zero, like
there's nothing.
Nothing I got you.
Yeah, it just tastes like hoppywater.
Yeah, because I like the tasteof it right.
So I would drink IPAs, a lot ofIPAs.
So they were, you know 6.5.
Right.
Yeah, so I'd black out all thetime, and this was probably the

(01:13:07):
beginning of April of 2015 thatI started drinking heavily.
And one weekend after so I wentto my neighbor was a lesbian,
right, and Mary's good friend isa gay man, and I wanted to go

(01:13:27):
out because I felt depressed andisolated.
And because you were yeah, Iwas yeah.
So I I hit up my neighbor.
They were going to go out, um,today, uh, her and her
girlfriend, yeah, fucking wrongsorry go ahead.
One was butch, okay, um, so theywere going out to the tiki all

(01:13:51):
right, did you?

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
know?
Huh, did you know the tikilounge?
Yeah, but I didn't know it wasa gay bar the tiki lounge yeah
well, yes, not when I was backthen, but that was you know yeah
, it wasn't turned that way.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Yeah, it turned that way, but close to the end of it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:06):
I'm talking about 20 30, 30 years ago, 30 years ago,
yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn'talways a game changer, well.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Tiki Lounge has been gone for 20.

Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
Has it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
No, no, they just shut down this year.

Speaker 5 (01:14:14):
Yeah, July 1st, it just shut down Really.

Speaker 4 (01:14:17):
Yeah, the one on McHenry.
Yeah, get me the times.
Okay, so you're gonna doanything but there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:14:31):
Well, yeah, six four, good looking guy nice beard
right, they call it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
They call it bears, I think, is what the term is.
Um, they call it bears.
You know the big burly guysyeah, sweet what do they call
the little jack sweet?
I love it, and so Mary was thereand her friend came over to me

(01:14:56):
and Listen to this, Larry.
Said my friend likes your beard, can she touch it?
Sure, what a pickup line, andso she came over and stro
stroked my beard, yeah yeah,come on, but at that point in
time you couldn't tell me shitso were you three sheets or were

(01:15:19):
you just?

Speaker 5 (01:15:21):
no, I never really drank like that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
That wasn't really a big thing for me.
We just met, yeah, but thatjust, and you told me a little
bit of your background, thatdoesn't seem like your
personality.

Speaker 5 (01:15:31):
Just to go stroke a strange man's beard yeah, it
really was, it really wasn't, Idon't know.
I just felt this weird, likeconnection almost well, he has a
beautiful beard.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
I'm sitting here admiring his damn beard well
that like he's handsome as shitlike a little bit more gray now
yeah

Speaker 5 (01:15:47):
it was a little more brown time.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
But that still doesn't seem like you.

Speaker 5 (01:15:51):
No, and it wasn't, but I don't know.
There was just.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Immediate attraction.

Speaker 5 (01:15:56):
Literally.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
Immediate yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
Like, we met here we are 10 years later, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:16:03):
No, he was like let me buy you a drink.
Let me buy you a drink.

Speaker 4 (01:16:14):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
I'm like yeah whatever and then he was like no
, I really want to, I'm likeokay.
And then he came back and hehanded me a beer and he was like
I went over and asked him canyou tell us at this, you know,
at this time 10 years ago, whatwere you doing?
You, can you say that?

Speaker 5 (01:16:23):
yeah, I worked in um law enforcement.
I at that time I was bookinginmates, male inmates
specifically so I was alreadylike, yeah, she had to get the
fuck away from me, kind oftowards man Cause it was just
such a.
I mean I was running into thedowntown jail, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
So that's.
That's why I got into thedichotomy.
Can I go stroke?
Here's a big handsome man.
Yeah, I'm dealing with these.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
She's got pretty much a good judge character, but yet
you know, that's just crazy howgod works.
Anyway, I like these.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
I was trying to figure out where the fuck he was
going with that.
You were gone.

Speaker 5 (01:16:55):
I'm finding this shit out yeah, and he, uh, he was
like he's like, oh, what was it?
He's like just keep talking,just keep talking she's got a
beautiful voice like you told meto keep talking.
That's what you get for therest of your life bud, I kind of
yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
But you need, we need because you're telling we need
strong women.
Yeah, and we're attracted tostrong women because they, you
know they'll co-sign.
Hopefully they don't co-signour bullshit, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:17:25):
I didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
And I was a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:17:30):
I had a lot more energy for a child, so I was a
lot more spit, fiery, but yeah,don't do that, dude.
He um, we were leaving and he'slike, following me out and he
kissed me on the cheek and oneof the girls that we were with
actually hit him like you don'tfucking hit kiss women, why
didn't?
I was just like whatever, he'sdrunk, not a big deal.
And I'm walking out and he'slike, hey, can I have your
number?
And I turn absolutely the fucknot.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
Bitch, you just touched my beard.
I don't know you.

Speaker 5 (01:17:53):
And I was like you can remember my name on Facebook
tomorrow because Facebook was alot more popular back then
Right.
I was like.
You can remember my name onFacebook, then we'll see you
must have I did.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
I did yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
So okay, now let's get your version.
So what were you thinking you,okay, Go ahead and touch my
beard, but what was it?

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
Oh, I'm taking her home.
I'm taking her home that night,right.
Oh, that was your thought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Nope.

Speaker 4 (01:18:15):
No, she was gorgeous.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
But again, women like don't say was.
Women like to be pursued andmen like to pursue.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
So it was perfect.
Yeah, yeah, hunter, and the no,she was a.

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
She was a spicy, little thing, I could tell we're
going on fucking dating gamehere now no, but this is good.

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
This is a startup.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
I know it is about ready to quit drinking no, no, I
, I know this is coming, thedope stopped because of well, I
know what the dope stops, I'vebeen there, so that's perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
So now, but you're hot and heavy yeah, yeah, you
remembered her name.

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
I did remember her name In a gay bar, at the gay
bar, the gay tic-tac.
This was May 30th 2015.

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
So you're five days away.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
I'm five days away, mercy.
A lot happens in that five days.
Talk to me, I want to hear this.
I remember we were trying tofigure out this timeline
yesterday.
I remember talking to her onetime on the phone and it must.
It must've been that Sunday.

Speaker 5 (01:19:16):
No, it was on phone, it was like Facebook messenger.

Speaker 4 (01:19:18):
Was it.

Speaker 5 (01:19:18):
Yeah, I didn't give me my number.

Speaker 4 (01:19:20):
So it was on Sunday.
That Sunday was my rock bottom,like I.
I woke up the next day and Iwas like my moment of clarity,
like what the fuck are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
All by yourself too.

Speaker 4 (01:19:36):
All by myself.
Wow, what would you say I had?

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
the first time I've heard that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
I told myself I had to stop blaming everybody else
for my problems.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Oh, my God, you just gave me chills.

Speaker 4 (01:19:46):
Ownership, take responsibility for my actions.
And you just gave me chills.
Ownership, take responsibilityfor my actions.
And it wasn't until later,sunday, that everything came
together.
I believe I'd called my oldestmom at the time and blamed her
for keeping my daughter awayfrom me, and I had reached out

(01:20:09):
to a buddy asking for a gun andhe was like, absolutely fucking,
not like you know, smart friend, go fuck yourself.
Um, yes, I thank him to thisday.
And another person told me, likethe only way you're going to
get into rehab, you need to takecare of yourself.
The only way you're going toget in is if you're suicidal.
I go, yeah, okay, I just askedfor a fucking gun, yeah.

(01:20:32):
So I called my mom.
My mom came out, I told herwhat was going on.
I'm like I want to get intorehab, like I'm done, like, but
apparently the only way I canget in is is by being suicidal.
So I I'm trying to remember.
I don't remember if my momdrove me to the hospital or if

(01:20:53):
the ambulance came and got me.
I think my mom drove me.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
Which hospital.

Speaker 4 (01:20:57):
Doctors Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
You get there.

Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
Get there, explain the situation.
They take me in.
They draw my blood Sittingthere.
What was a couple episodes ago?
What was his name?
Paul when he said that thehealthcare system is so screwed

(01:21:20):
up around mental health thatjust that solidified it really
is.
I sat there for a few hours.
They had the ambulance drive meto DBHC, put me in a fucking
padded room with a blanketovernight and the next morning
around 6 am they released mefuck damn yeah and luckily I

(01:21:41):
live fairly close to where theyreleased me and I was able to
walk home.
But I'm like what?
So what do I do now?
They?
They had no information for me,nothing, just let me go.
So I called my HR of my workand I was like this is what's
going on, this is what I need.

(01:22:01):
Can you help me?
Can you help me?
And yeah, she was great.
I miss her.
She was ourris um person at thetime and she's all giving it.
Give me an hour or so and I'llgive you a call back.
She's all called the call-inhotline for work and call and

(01:22:23):
say today I'm like okay, uh, shecalled me back and said these
are the places your insurancewill partially cover, and one I
believe was Maynard's, and thedeductible for that was
outrageous.
There's no way I could come upwith it.
And so the ghetto alternativewas Changing Echoes in Angels

(01:22:50):
Camp, yeah, and it was ghetto,so the ghetto alternative was
changing echoes.
uh, in angels camp, um, and itwas.
It was $500 deposit Um but it'ssomething that deposit and I
had no money and I was, I wasnot going to ask my mom to cover
it Right.
So, uh, I hit up the local shopthat I sold these signs to.

(01:23:12):
I'm like, would you buy?
Would you buy for these signs?
You know if I could have themto you by this date?
I said, yeah, no problem.
So I sold four signs at one, 25aiece to pay to get into
Regattas.
Mm-hmm Good.

(01:23:34):
Lord.
So I called them.
They couldn't get me in untilthat Thursday, so I had four
days to figure out what to do.
So I busted my ass and madethose and had my mom right there
the whole time watching me,spent the night at my mom's
house that whole week, just uh,I didn't quit drinking.

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
you couldn't I had my .

Speaker 4 (01:23:58):
You really couldn't had my talk hands and that's
that's why I remember from fromlarry's when they told you don't
, don't quit, don't quit.
Um, they did not tell me that, Ijust uh you couldn't do it yeah
yeah, yeah, I couldn't have andI remember, I remember my last
talk in, uh, the night before Ileft, you know, and I had my
bags back and my mom, um, tookme up there and, you know, did

(01:24:21):
the in processing and stuff, andum, at that time I was like I'm
not here for drinking, like I'mhere for drugs that was, that
was my problem right, yeah, eventhough I had quit a month
before coming there justify,rationalize, minimize I'm like
I'm gonna get out, you know,drink like a gentleman, I'll be

(01:24:43):
just fine.
My hat's off to you right umduring my time there um.
But you didn't apparently.
I did not, no, no, during mytime there, I experienced a lot.
There was one kid there thatwas detoxing off heroin Maybe

(01:25:05):
not heroin, but opiates Samething, and he was just huddled
up in the corner just shiveringshivering, shivering, shivering
Jimmy legs.
They were feeding him candy.
You know, um, I was like whatthe fuck?
This guy's got a problem?
I don't, I don't, you got tocheck this guy out over here,
right?
Um, but just the, the storiesthat you hear in there, and I'd

(01:25:32):
never opened up to a group ofgroup of men before, um, before
going there, and that, just tobe totally honest with them and
not not trying to build myselfup for any reason Um, it was it
life-changing for sure, um, andI remember they want to be to be

(01:25:54):
house manager or whatever theycalled it at the time, and, uh,
the, uh, the cook shot it downbecause he wanted me in the
kitchen.
I was like motherfucker, dude,I don't want to kill these
fucking people.
Um, and you know, that placedefinitely increased my nicotine
and caffeine intake, for damnsure.

(01:26:15):
That's all there was, right, um, but you know, going to those
meetings and and and talking notjust with the counselors but
with the, the people that werethere, right, like it, those
stories.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
Do you now how many people that you were in there
with do you?
Did you talk to any of them now?

Speaker 4 (01:26:35):
no, no, I did um, exactly, yeah my point exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
Yeah, because they don't make it no, and they're
rare yeah, and a lot of themaren't they're not yeah, like
the the opiate kid, like hedrinks but he doesn't do opiates
.

Speaker 4 (01:26:52):
I'm like teach sarah like I'm not here to judge.
You know what I mean at all.
Um, if you can live and helooks like he's doing fine,
we're friends on facebook.
He looks like he's thriving, sogood for you.
Um, but yeah me going in therethinking that dope is your.
I was just there for dope and Icould walk out of there and have

(01:27:14):
a drink.
Um was quickly, quicklydiminished.
Yeah, it was after being therea couple of weeks.
Um, and my counselor was great.
Um, yeah, after being there acouple of weeks and just hearing
everything, all the stories andreflecting back on me, I was

(01:27:37):
like oh shit.
That's me.
Oh, you have a drinking problem.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
Similarities Similarities, not the
differences.

Speaker 4 (01:27:45):
Um, yeah, by the, by the time I got out, I was.
I was never going to drinkagain Like I.
I knew it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
Like, like would you say your obsession was lifted,
going back or thinking aboutthat?
as far as the obsession foralcohol.
Yeah, the obsession for alcohol.
You know not the thought I meanto be.
Well, what I mean by that islike we can be.
I can be around it.
Let me rephrase it I can bearound it all day long because I

(01:28:15):
have zero.
You know, rob says that.
I say it.
I don't think about drinkingany more than I do breathing
right, because that obsession'sgone yeah, so and page 64 tells
me that alcohol wasn't myproblem.

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
Anyway, right, I was the problem.

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):
Yeah liquor was just a symptom but yes, it, I believe
it got lifted and there's.
I was telling mary there's afew things that I really took
away from inpatient rehab is thethree-headed dragon and, from a
sobriety standpoint, there'smany different interpretations
of the three-headed dragon.

(01:28:49):
Give me yours.
Mine that I use currently isphysical, psychological and
spiritual.
If I keep those three heads onand they're all in alignment, my
life is beautiful, right?
How often are all three inalignment?
It's work maybe yes, yes, but Iremember in rehab it was

(01:29:13):
thinking and feeling right andyou're chopping off those heads
um of the dragon, which kind ofsay that again, drinking,
drinking thinking and feelingokay um.
So that really resonated withme at the time.
I was like, okay, not that I'veperfected all those things, but
I've managed all those things.
So what does the three-headeddragon mean to me now?

(01:29:33):
And and that's the, that's thephysical, psychological and
spiritual, those are the, thosethree things.
You keep those at a, at a good,steady balance.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:29:48):
You should be in harmony right, I feel.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
I just got to get the physical.

Speaker 4 (01:29:52):
Me too, I've been lacking that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
Spiritual is most important right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
It is spiritually fit , thank god because it keeps me
mental, yeah, without that right.

Speaker 4 (01:30:04):
Yeah, I wish the mirror would say the same thing,
but it doesn't.
And the skill yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:09):
And the scale from it stem all forms of spiritual
disease, for we have not onlybeen mentally and physically ill
, we've been spiritually sick.
But when the spiritual maladyis overcome, we straighten out
mentally and physically.
Spirituality is always first,yeah, never last, never second.
Once that's, then the other twowill fall in line, or you have
a chance for the other two tofall in line.

(01:30:29):
You'll get there, baby.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
So you get out of rehab.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
Oh, the other thing that I took away was the, the
sleeping tiger.
Yeah, he's, that's where he'sat.
Yeah, yeah, he's growing, he'sdoing, he's doing push-ups right
now.

Speaker 4 (01:30:44):
Yeah, our tiger is doing push-ups and we had a
conversation me and mary had aconversation about that and
she's like really, I don't thinkthat it would be like that
initially like the first daydrinking or whatever.
But I think eventually, likewith a quickness, it would.
It would definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):
So you understand that yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I've seen it, we've seen it.
Yeah yeah, you spend a few.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):
spend a few, a little while in the rooms.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
Yeah, yeah, well, it's been a sponsor.
If you man, you'll see it.
Yeah, a lot of us die out therebecause that tiger wakes up.
Yeah, the first couple of times, maybe the first day or two,
yeah, you know, maybe a week, amonth or two, yeah, but it's
progressive.
You eventually become rightwhere you were.
Worse, yeah, and I know where Iended up was about where you
ended up.

Speaker 4 (01:31:31):
Yeah, yeah.
You know so yeah, and at thispoint I got 10 years.
Man, I got too much fuckingtime invested and this is the
most time I have had invested inanything besides our marriage.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
That's about the same time.
I mean you close.
She went.
If you were that man shewouldn't be here for 28 days
after he had.

Speaker 5 (01:31:58):
So I did.
You wonder what the fuck?
Well, he ghosted me, you son ofa bitch, like yeah, I was
dating, doing whatever.
And then, come october, hemessages me on facebook.
I was like, hey, can I call youmotherfucker?

Speaker 2 (01:32:07):
that was all I'm like hey, okay, that's fine, he's
got that great fucking beard.

Speaker 5 (01:32:12):
Yeah, I'm like he was super handsome, okay, whatever,
and I don't know anything inbetween what's going on?
So he calls me and he's like.
I was like, oh, I answered thephone, I'm like, gladys, you're
not fucking dead.
And he goes.
I've been in rehab for the lastday and I was like, oh, well,
fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
Okay, I don't know how to respond to that.

Speaker 5 (01:32:31):
I'm 24.
I'm like I don't know, I don'teven have a frontal lobe yet.
I don't know what to say.
It's almost developed, it'salmost there.
I was close, but so, yeah, andthen we talked and he's like I'd
like to get a date.
I'm like, okay, cool, great.
That was October.
Yeah, first week of Octoberwent on a date second worst

(01:32:53):
first date in my entire life.

Speaker 3 (01:32:55):
Whoa second worst first date.

Speaker 5 (01:32:57):
Come on where'd you guys go?
I can explain why.
Well, somebody didn't know howto date.
Sober no.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
No, I get it.
Yeah, I'm sure he didn't.
That's kind of what I'm waitingfor.

Speaker 4 (01:33:06):
Yeah, so I'll backtrack a little bit.
So when I got out of rehab Ihad while I was still in rehab I
had asked my ex's brother to bemy sponsor because he was
working the program the Hispanicyeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
That there is a story .

Speaker 4 (01:33:26):
And you know, I I told my ex that if I, if we ever
broke up, that I would getclean and sober and start
working out.
So, if I'm still sober tillthis day, out of spite, maybe
you know but, um, yeah, so inanother spiteful way, you know,
I had, um, her brother be mysponsor.

(01:33:48):
Um, you know, it was, you know,pre COVID time.
So we had our weekend visitsand he came up there, brought me
cigarettes.
You know, my mom visited and Iremember we had to, we had to
make our, basically our firstamend, so my mom had to sit
directly in front of me and Ihad to read the letter that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
I had written her.

Speaker 4 (01:34:10):
And that yeah that tore me up.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
Let me ask can I ask a quick question right?

Speaker 4 (01:34:19):
there was your mom still drinking at that time, so
my mom quit drinking two weeksafter I went into rehab.
Okay, god bless and she neverworked a program.
You know she may still havecharacter defaults that you know
are gonna live with her therest of her life, but at least
she was not drinking Right Likeshe's sober.
She's sober, she's open to thisday.
She'd never, she'd never drinkagain after that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:43):
Tell me about the letter.

Speaker 4 (01:34:45):
Uh, the letter, the parts that I remember, um, it
was just basically telling hersorry for being such a piece of
shit, son.
You know what I mean, like allthe things that she had to put
up with when she was just tryingto give me the best life that
she could, right.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
But nowhere in that letter did it say, you were a
fucking drunk too.

Speaker 3 (01:35:10):
We're not supposed to do that.
No, no, no, no.
Well, that's what I was gettingat.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
That's what I was getting at.

Speaker 3 (01:35:14):
Because there's one question I want to ask you but
it hasn't, because when you hadyour revelation, before you went
to rehab, you had called yourdaughters, your oldest
daughter's mother, and just laidit on, I mean, and just
blistered her, yeah, even thoughyou were the problem.
So you were the problem, yeah,did you ever correct that?

Speaker 4 (01:35:33):
I actually spoke with her several times before I went
into rehab.
Yeah, when I was staying at mymom's house.
Okay, I was in contact withwith my mother's, or my, my
daughter's mom, yeah, yeah, andand that she, knowing Sean's
story, that woman's a saintbecause bless you, to you to say

(01:35:54):
stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (01:35:55):
That's good the amount of love for her daughter
and even just the well-being ofsean to not put him through what
I probably would have put himthrough if I was her, is
astonishing.
As a female, well to have doneand she, I think, was one of the
contributing factors of makingsure that Sean was able to

(01:36:16):
reconcile with his oldest yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:36:20):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:36:23):
Saying that because we were talking when Larry was
dicking off.
It's rare because I've decidedto sponsor.
It's rare, but a lot of timesthe parents will use the
children as weapons andobviously she didn't.
She put the daughter first, asshe should have, which is
awesome.
Which is amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:36:40):
She was a very good mom.
She is a very great mom.

Speaker 4 (01:36:43):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Everything's on me, it's all me, it was always me.

Speaker 3 (01:36:53):
But the realization of that is painful, isn't it?
It is it is, it's very painfuland it it has been for you know,
he knows that there's nothingmore we want to do than to go
back and fix go back and fix, ohyeah, you want to fix it so
badly yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:37:06):
well, that's what men do.
You guys are fixers yeahwhether we want to be fixed or
not, or yeah but, but once weknow.

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
But when you see the wreckage, yeah, you want to and
there's, you can't, you can'tunring the bell, but you, what
we can do is the next rightthing.
And yeah, you know, yeah, butit's painful, I know, I can see
it.
Yeah, I can feel it.
Yeah, hey, um, let me ask you aquestion, larry.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Yeah, um, why you gotta do it right fucking now,
and I'm trying not to fuckingcry, prick why do you want to
cry?

Speaker 5 (01:37:37):
I can feel.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
I can feel that pain.

Speaker 4 (01:37:40):
I can feel it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:44):
I can feel it.
It hurts nothing with you,fucking hurts.

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
I'm glad you're, here .

Speaker 4 (01:37:53):
I'm very happy that I'm here so I, I want it um.

Speaker 2 (01:37:59):
So I mean, we're all over the place right now, not
really not really, so I mean mybrain.
Where's the?

Speaker 3 (01:38:04):
relationship now sorry my brain is your oldest.

Speaker 4 (01:38:09):
how is the relationship?
Where is it?
Oh, I was getting there, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
Sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:38:14):
Yeah, and there's.
Where do we live off?
Rehab, rehab, just out of rehabWait wait.

Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
You guys, you got out of rehab, you went on your
first sober date.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
We were talking about the first date.

Speaker 3 (01:38:31):
You sucked at it.

Speaker 4 (01:38:32):
Yeah, but she's there .
There were some things beforethat yeah, outpatient.
Yeah, I did.

Speaker 3 (01:38:40):
Sober living.

Speaker 4 (01:38:41):
No, no, no, Just outpatient treatment.
I think my insurance paid forthree months of outpatient,
which I did breakthroughs inModesto Corey.
There was great in keeping mein check, you know, coming back
to civilization, and I livedwith my mom for two weeks after

(01:39:04):
I got out of rehab just to makesure I was.

Speaker 2 (01:39:09):
I was taking care of your house during this time.

Speaker 4 (01:39:11):
So I was disability, screwed me around like I was
heavily trying to get thatdisability check in there, um,
before my rent was due, okay, um, and it, finally, it finally
came through, it finally droppedand good, luckily, rent back
then was only like 700 bucks amonth.
So, um, yeah, so the house wasgood, um, everything, everything

(01:39:33):
paid for, um, live with mom.
A couple of weeks after wentback home, um, actually.
So I got out July 3rd, right,and July 4th we went to an A's
game and went to go watchfireworks, and it was the most
miserable time I've ever had.
Like, what do you do at abaseball game without drinking a

(01:39:53):
beer, right?
And then it's fair time I go tothe fair.
This is even worse.
Like I can't go to beer gardens.
Like, no, you can't, you can't,you better figure it out.
Like you better find somethingelse to occupy your mind and
your time, you know, and it waslike that for a while.

(01:40:14):
I just had to go out there andkeep doing things how was your
sponsor?

Speaker 3 (01:40:19):
didn't work.

Speaker 4 (01:40:19):
Any steps, obviously um, I had started to and, and
that's the thing, right like mygarage was full of um beer signs
and mirrors and shit, and hewas like you have to take those
down, that's a reservation.
I was like what, what are youtalking about?
I like it, it looks cool, right,like I can guarantee you I'm

(01:40:40):
not gonna drink again because ofa fucking sign yeah, I can
guarantee you I'm gonna keepthis shit up in my garage
because it looks cool and I paida lot of money for it, right um
?
And then you know, no newrelationships for for a year.
Well, if I would have takenthat advice, I wouldn't be with
my wife, right, right, possibly.
Right um, that's a stupid youknow?

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
no, they say no major decisions for at least a year.
Yeah, motherfucker, I justturned my will and my life over
to the care of god, or I mean, Ijust went into.
If that's not a major decision,what is?

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
yeah yeah, and I think those you wonder where
they come up with that shit,because it's nowhere in the
fucking book.

Speaker 3 (01:41:20):
No, they just make shit up.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
Neither is the 90 and 90.
Where the fucking comes from isbeyond me.

Speaker 3 (01:41:26):
Ego, someone's ego.

Speaker 4 (01:41:27):
I guess man, but um, I I don't know if that was the
deciding factor of me steppingaway from working the program.
I know Mary had gone to some.
We used to go to NorthsideFellowship.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
That's a rough one.

Speaker 4 (01:41:43):
It is very rough.
A lot of in and outers man, nocomment.
I would get something sometimesfrom the stories, but there was
so much relapse going on in andout of that fellowship that it
was just like, yeah, what thefuck Like, is anybody serious
about this?

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
It's very hard when you and I once again, I don't
want to talk negative about anymeeting right North side.
There's a lot of people thatgot sober there and that are
still there.

Speaker 1 (01:42:11):
But which one were the one that broke off first
time because they want to smokepot.
All right, let's move on there.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (01:42:16):
I got a lot out of it honestly, like, um, my past
relationship before I got withsean.
He was an alcoholic and I um,when we broke up, I was driving
home and I was just crying,hysterical, whatever, and I was
praying and I wasn't very.

(01:42:38):
I didn't have my faith that Ihave now.
It was just something you did,whatever.
And I, like physically, canfeel how I felt in that moment
of praying.
Like Jesus, I can't be withsomebody who drinks again.
Like, please bring me somebodywho does not drink, cause I am
not strong enough to do this.
I cannot do the ins and outs,cannot do the bar pickups.

(01:42:58):
I cannot do this anymore.
Like god, you have to help me.
Like I need help.
I can't be with somebody.
Obviously I'm not picking thegood ones.
You need to help me.
And then we heard you we yeah.
So like I had a little bit ofhistory of being with somebody
and you know there's certainalcoholics- did they help you
understand a few things.

Speaker 3 (01:43:11):
so, being that I had a couple alcoholics in my family
, did they help you understand afew things?

Speaker 5 (01:43:14):
So, being that, I had a couple of alcoholics in my
family and, like I, it wasalways like, not taboo, but just
like that wasn't a world that Icame from.
So I had no understandingbecause, like I grew up in a
home where, like my parents mayhave drank and my parents were
divorced, but either home theymay have drank whatever, but
like it wasn't prevalent thatlike nobody was gonna they're

(01:43:34):
just normies yeah, like didn'tfuck you normies yeah hey, go on
with the show.
Um, so I'm sitting in thesemeetings and I'm just like
enthralled and I'm like likejust eyes wide open and trying
not to be judgy, because I'mjust like that, what the fuck
are we doing here?
Kind of a thing, but just Idon't know.

(01:43:54):
Just seeing the differentperspectives and a lot of it,
like okay, like the biggesttakeaways for me was okay, I
know that I'm going to be withthis man and like he cannot
drink like a gentleman, and thatis one of the biggest key
phrases that came out of that aswell as why not me?
And literally like we wentthrough a lot of infertility and
a lot of stuff like that, andthat literally stuck out as far

(01:44:16):
as like well, why not me?
And I think that had I not gonethrough that, it wouldn't give
me a foundation to understandwhat sean was going through or
how to respond to it, or becauseit was very like we're gonna
hit the ground running when wegot together yeah yeah, it was
um you flipping, got a good one,buddy.

Speaker 3 (01:44:36):
You outkicked you just like him.
You outkicked your freakingcoverage that's all right,
though.

Speaker 4 (01:44:40):
Good for you, and you've seen a lot of clientele
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:44:47):
Yeah, I didn't feel like yeah, I did, I just
remember.
Oh, this harder walk in.
Oh shit, I just booked your ass, I'm in trouble yeah, yeah, um.

Speaker 4 (01:44:57):
So I think that was my demise at the time of of
working the program um you everthought of going back, maybe
working the steps and cleaningsome house, or you?

Speaker 3 (01:45:04):
know, like I said like, just I mean it wouldn't
hurt my grandmother like I said,sobriety is not a destination
as a journey oh, absolutely I'mnot, I'm not throwing anything
out the window like I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:45:15):
I'm open to whatever it's gonna help me continue or
help somebody else continue,like that was my whole reasoning
for reaching out.
You know, to larry for thepodcast, like even though I may
feel a certain way about mystory and that it's not, oh,
it's powerful that you know it'smy story.

Speaker 3 (01:45:33):
It is so much of its mind is I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:45:35):
And I think for me, for me to tell it, like I kind
of feel comfortable now, youknow, speaking about it, but
like just the thought ofspeaking about it when I hadn't
told it, like Mary didn't knowthe whole story, like I never
really sat there and you knowfor me to and you know from A to

(01:45:57):
Z put it all together.

Speaker 3 (01:45:58):
How did it make you feel, putting it all on paper,
like you?

Speaker 4 (01:46:01):
did?
How many teardrops hit thepaper?
Yeah, well, they would have hadto hit the computer screen, but
you like the keyboard.
Yeah, yeah, it was tough.
I didn't hit writer's block,but there was a lot of a lot of
things I didn't want to type out.
That that I did, um, and and Ilet Mary read over it, she's all

(01:46:23):
um, she wasn't, you know, notmaking fun of it, because I was
just typing right, like I wasn'twriting a novel.
I was just typing outeverything that I thought and
that I remembered.

Speaker 5 (01:46:33):
It was written like a journal entry.

Speaker 4 (01:46:34):
Yeah, literally.

Speaker 5 (01:46:35):
Yeah, just throwing it out there.

Speaker 4 (01:46:40):
But I'm so glad I did because if I would have, you
know, taken my own advice andjust came here and winged it
like there's a lot, of, a lot ofthings I wouldn't remember, A
lot of feelings that thatwouldn't have came about if I
didn't type it out.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
You know it's funny, Sean.
You say that I've told my storya lot and when I got invited
three years right, I've neverseen anybody with three years
get invited to speak at PrimaryPurpose, right and I got asked
to come and tell my story at abirthday At your home group, At
my home group, and I had told Ihad told it a week prior and

(01:47:21):
there was a part of my storythat I never said out loud ever,
even behind the walls with mywife ever, and it just flowed
out of me like just and when Iwas literally done, I can
remember thinking where the fuckdid that even come from?
I've never spoke about thatanywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
Someone in that room had needed to hear that have.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
I spoke about that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:44):
And God will pull it out of you.
And it was factual.

Speaker 2 (01:47:48):
It wasn't shit.
I embellished, it was nothing.
It was literally shit that justcame out and I can remember, as
I was saying it, what the fuckis going on right now and just
feeling that shit leave my body.
It was just like another poundtaken off of me Right.
And I truly believe, as we gothrough life, we alcoholics,

(01:48:12):
that are walking the correctpath as we go through this and I
mean I've heard guys at 20years and 30 years.
Just there was a guy speak atat our oakdale fellowship had 30
years of sobriety and he talkedabout giving his son up for
adoption and and as he wassaying it, broke down crying.

(01:48:35):
30 years after it happened, hestill broke down crying.

Speaker 3 (01:48:40):
Well, you spoke the week before.
I spoke the month before Rightand about my mom and her trip to
Maynard Right.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
I forgot about that I never shared that Right, and it
just came out.

Speaker 3 (01:48:50):
And as you go, as God's not done with you, your
stuff will come out Because youdidn't go.
This was not exhaustive.
No, no, no no, so there's morestuff that'll come wherever
company you're in.
Yeah, different parts of yourstory will need to come out.

Speaker 2 (01:49:07):
It's amazing there's some more here that I'm not
going to let him leave until Iget, because I've had a moment
to speak with you.
So a couple of questions I wantto cause.

Speaker 4 (01:49:25):
Are you done?
Do you got more of your story?
You're going to tell, yes, okay, keep going, cause I got
questions.
Um, so yeah, just just doingthings until they became normal,
right Without without having adrink or all the first, yeah,
first golf game first bowlingfirst yeah, everything
right um, and, and you know,fast forward to me reaching back
out to to mary in october, umof 15.

(01:49:46):
So I was over what?
July, august, september, fouror five months, yeah, four
months.
Um, you know, I had to win somemonster truck tickets on the
radio.
I was like hell, yeah, I'mgonna take it, let's see if she
wants to go to the monstertrucks.
Not knowing that that was a jamyou're gonna find out um, and

(01:50:10):
luckily, her friend that she wasworking with at the time, like
she wanted to dismiss me,reaching back out to her and her
friends like, oh, give himanother chance.

Speaker 3 (01:50:19):
He ghosted you yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:50:21):
So she did and we went and I remember it was
awkward, right, and especiallylike the age gap at the time I
was 38 and you were 24, I think,yeah, and you know, my first
monster truck show without abeer, right.

(01:50:43):
And then I think we did, we goout that night we went to the
twin, the twin rivers yeah.
And I was like what I do here.

Speaker 5 (01:50:56):
You know it was one of my first bars going to after
I got, so and you're only fourmonths out, yeah, which is wild
to me to hear it now, because atthat time I was like well, I'm
going to the 20 going with melike, I don't give a fuck if
you're an alcoholic or not.
I'm sorry, that really soundslike your problem what is his
problem?

Speaker 2 (01:51:16):
you're a thousand percent correct it ain't yours
right thousand percent.
You want to be with me.
I'm going to the bar and I wastesting him because I'm right
yeah I'm drinking crown andcokes.

Speaker 5 (01:51:24):
Are you coming?
Like are you gonna drive me?
What's going on?

Speaker 3 (01:51:26):
I'm here, to lifelong dd.
So, but long before that, youprayed a prayer that got heard.
So, yeah, you need to test that, yeah.
And then our second date.

Speaker 4 (01:51:42):
That'd be better, was it?

Speaker 5 (01:51:45):
I don't know, that was our first date.
Second date was oh was it.

Speaker 2 (01:51:51):
Yeah, the first date was the second worst date she
ever had yeah, so the first dateis where wildfire is.

Speaker 4 (01:51:58):
Now I forget what it was.
It's like chicago.
Um, we yeah, we had dinnerthere.
Um, all I remember is isordering um chips and salsa.
I was just stuffing my face andshe was just looking at me like
this guy's eating food, likehe's never fucking ate before.

(01:52:19):
That's because you didn't knowwhat else to do.
I did it right.
I just want to stuff my faceand like got outside and like
got a side hug, high five I'llsee you later.
Right like I'm going homebecause I don't know how to do
this.
Like I I need to go out to thebars after this.
What do we do now?

Speaker 5 (01:52:38):
yeah, because he was like text me when you get home.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
I was like okay, my girlfriend's already at the bar.
I'm in my mid 20s.

Speaker 5 (01:52:46):
I'm doing what I want to do, yeah yeah, so that was
and now we're here yeah, we arehere um years later, right?

Speaker 3 (01:52:59):
like with another doctor, you're two-year-old,
two-year-old daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:53:01):
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on you got, god
damn it well, we're gonna get tothat, but I I need to hear the
relationship progressing here alittle bit because, I think our
listeners want to hear, becauseat this point, mary, you should
just fucking cut.

Speaker 5 (01:53:20):
Pretty much.

Speaker 2 (01:53:21):
Block his ass at this point.

Speaker 5 (01:53:22):
Like if that was my daughter, I'd be like what are
you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:53:25):
So tell me the switch in you.

Speaker 5 (01:53:29):
So we had a couple more dates.
Everything was going great, andthen we had our first.
Whatever the first day was like, the first week of october I
was doing peace off memorial run.
So it was like the firstweekend, a couple dates and by
thanksgiving, which is what likenovember 20 something yeah, you
could not tell me I was notgoing to marry him and I am not

(01:53:51):
really I am not impulsive.
I plan out my life.
I'm not having kids out ofwedlock, I'm not doing a lot of
shit like, and not that that'sbad or good.
It's just like I knew what Iwanted for my life good for you
and you weren't going to tell meanything different.
And by thanksgiving I was likeand that's what?
Six weeks like, there was justthis conviction in me that, like
, this is who I'm supposed to bewith, let's roll.

(01:54:13):
You could have asked me tomarry you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
I would have married you, not thought twice about it
but do you have, no, no ideawhere the switch was at?

Speaker 5 (01:54:21):
no, honestly, is.
What sticks in my head is likethanksgiving morning.
I was over there the nightbefore woke up, went got coffee,
went wash my car and I lookedback at him and he was walking
to the house because I was like,like I got to go we got the ads
for Black Friday.

Speaker 4 (01:54:34):
Yeah, we went and got all that Back when Black Friday
was Black Friday, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
Hold on, hold on a second, hold on, hold on, yes,
hold on.
You're leaving his house.
Yes, yeah, okay.
Well, we left the second date.
Now you're leaving his house.
What the?

Speaker 4 (01:54:51):
fuck happened here.
This is I had a kid.
Yeah, she couldn't stay away.

Speaker 2 (01:54:59):
All right, so second.
So I'm probably going to cutthis out but, I'm still fucking
trying to figure this out.
Within six weeks it went fromterrible to but the third date.
Was it the third date?
Something switched.

Speaker 5 (01:55:11):
I think so.
My mom always told me this ruleshe goes give men three dates
before you cut them.
But think about this thing I'mgoing to give you three dates.

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):
Here's a man who is not drinking, which is awesome.
He's got a conviction.
He's not.
You know he had a problem.
He's working on it.
He's not trying to jump yourbones.
Right after the first or seconddate You're getting a high five
or have dated before.
You have to be intrigued likehe was more mature getting

(01:55:37):
because he's 30s, but still he'snot doing the things that would
normally a man would do.
Right, I'm intrigued.

Speaker 5 (01:55:39):
I would think and I hadn't been dating like like the
alcoholic before and like I wasin like a four or five year
relationship before that.

Speaker 3 (01:55:45):
So I was very I'm thinking the prayer is hitting
home no, I'm thinking the samething and like I don't know
something.

Speaker 5 (01:55:51):
We were just like I was working swing shift at the
time, so I was getting off.
I mean I would work 16, 20s,whatever and get off hella late
in the morning and we just weretalking the whole time and going
on dates and just hanging out.

Speaker 2 (01:56:04):
Friendship.
Yeah, okay, I like I said Ijust for I couldn't go from the
high five at Uno's to leavinghis house.
I'm like wait wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 3 (01:56:15):
Okay, so now that we got there, Okay, thanks for
kidding.

Speaker 4 (01:56:18):
Now we're there.
Our first kiss was at our thirdor fourth date.

Speaker 2 (01:56:22):
Okay, what was your mom's rule?

Speaker 5 (01:56:24):
She goes three dates.
Three dates before you cut himin.

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
Okay, Fair enough.
Thank you, Mom.

Speaker 3 (01:56:33):
Fair enough, so you're leaving on Thanksgiving.

Speaker 5 (01:56:34):
Leaving on Thanksgiving.

Speaker 3 (01:56:35):
You look back and I'm going to marry this cat.

Speaker 5 (01:56:36):
I literally looked out the door or out the window
and I was driving away and Ilooked back and I was like, okay
, god got it, got it, I'm done.

Speaker 2 (01:56:45):
Just gave me chills.

Speaker 5 (01:56:46):
Like that that was.
It still gives me chills.
Like there was.
You could not convince me that.
Like I've never in my entirelife known exactly what I was
supposed to be doing at the sameexact moment, like that was my
calling that.

Speaker 2 (01:57:00):
That was it.
That was me walking katie outof the hospital.

Speaker 5 (01:57:02):
Yeah, uh-huh, know that feeling very well and
that's only happened twice in myentire life what's first time
sean the second time.
Um, they told us that we couldnot have children after five
years of IVF or not IVF, fiveyears of trying to have our
daughter, and they're like youcan't do it naturally, like

(01:57:22):
you're going to have to IVF.
So we're like, cool, let'srefinance the house.
Because, like I was meant to bea mother and I didn't care,
we're walking on water, I don'tgive a shit, we need to do what
we need to do because I'm havinga baby and not that we had
talked about adoption, blah,blah, blah.
Because I had multiplemiscarriages, multiple targets
and, yeah, I had six pregnancies.
She was my sixth pregnancy in ashort in two years.

(01:57:44):
Yeah, after not.
I mean, we tried for five years, but refinance the house, got
everything situated and theytold me you can't do it.
And in my brain I was like youdon't know what the fuck I can
do right and I we were like,okay, and it was just like a
fully, I just felt the feelingof surrender and I was like, and
it was prayer, and I was doingall the wild shit to get

(01:58:05):
pregnant.
Like went to a healing doctor,we started chiropractor sean's
like I cut out all the toxinsout of our house.
He's like, hey, can we stopcleaning with vinegar?

Speaker 2 (01:58:15):
Did she make you wear a different underwear?

Speaker 1 (01:58:19):
There was not one thing that the internet told me
we were supposed to be doingthat we were not doing.

Speaker 3 (01:58:24):
What do you think was the prayer?
Where's the camera, kid?

Speaker 5 (01:58:28):
Come on, lay it on me , it was.
We got baptized In 2020, 2022.
It was.
We got baptized in 2020.
And I had already had a couplepregnancies, a couple
miscarriages, a couple ectopicsand I'd wanted to get baptized
the fall before because we werestarting to get into church and
stuff like that and find ourfaith and I was like well, you

(01:58:56):
let me know when you're ready,because something in my heart
says we have to do this together, like this is very important to
me, I need that, I need this, Ineed this together.
So he's like okay, okay,whatever and I was like I'm not
gonna push on you.
Let me know when you're readybecause, like one thing about
like sean does a lot of shit outof spite which I use my we've
learned in our marriage, but I'mnot.
I'm not going to push him to dosomething he's not ready to.

(01:59:18):
So they did baptisms in January22nd 2022.
I'm I'm a Aquarius, my birthdayis 27th and we just happened to
go the weekend before, causesometimes we'd we'd watch it at
home, whatever.
Well, they open them up andthey're like, if you feel a
calling, come up.
And I walked into church and Isaw this lady and we go to

(01:59:40):
Shelter Cove.
So I mean, it's not, it's a bigchurch.
It's huge.
I had locked eyes with this ladywalking in and I was like
that's really weird, like andI'm very aware, I'm over aware
of my surroundings, like I'm avery hyper aware person, and I
saw her, we locked eyes.
I was like that's so weird.
We walked in and they openedhim up and Sean turned to me he

(02:00:01):
goes, it's time we need to go.
And I said OK, and we're fullyclothed, like fully.

Speaker 4 (02:00:07):
I got a fresh Dixon on you know.

Speaker 5 (02:00:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:00:09):
Brand new Vans.

Speaker 3 (02:00:16):
I'm like yeah, I got a closet for Brian I got him
hooked on Dixon's A good friendof mine bought me some.

Speaker 5 (02:00:20):
Yeah that wouldn't happen if he didn't buy him for
me.
And we went in, we got baptizedand I I literally looked at the
lady who I didn't know she wassitting.
I just took my phone, I hand itto me.
I was like I'm going to wantthis.
I said, hey, can you takepictures and record?
She looked at me and she goes.
The Holy Spirit told me to lookat you and I said, okay, she
goes.
I knew what I was supposed tobe doing.

(02:00:40):
I said, okay, so she tookpictures, got baptized and then
we.
So they said we couldn't haveher.
But that mixed with I don'tknow Like I don't know, like it
was just a feeling in my gutthat I knew.
And then we got pregnant,naturally, yeah, after
surrendering the thought, afterrefinancing the house, doing all

(02:01:02):
the paperwork.

Speaker 4 (02:01:03):
Yeah, I was.
And that was my biggest, myhardest time with faith at that
time, with Mary going throughall the miscarriages.
Why, why, why, why?
Because of me, right like wayne, might be punished yeah, no am

(02:01:25):
I not deserving of it.
Um, and so my, my faith wasdepleted a lot at that time, and
then we gave ourselves over,you know.

Speaker 3 (02:01:37):
And God always blesses obedience, not because
we deserve it, but he loves togive his children good gifts and
, by God, mary's going to be amother.
She was and she's a great one,I bet.
Thank you, that's a great story.

Speaker 2 (02:01:54):
I'm just yeah, yeah if I hear nothing else, is it
time for my questions yet yeah,ask your damn questions go ahead
.
Yeah, oh, you're gonna take abreak, okay I go bathroom.

Speaker 3 (02:02:06):
That's love.
Love is love.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
Don't hide right um, okay mom, you'll get it, you'll
get it so I've never taken thismany breaks in the podcast and
it's fine.
I mean the interruptions thatwe've had, it's perfectly fine.

Speaker 3 (02:02:22):
Well, you wanted her to say something on air.

Speaker 2 (02:02:24):
No, we were talking off air and you said something A
.
I love the compliment and Iappreciate it.
She gave you a compliment, shegave us Mary.
I'm, I appreciate it.
She gave you a compliment.
She gave us.
She gave us a compliment.

Speaker 5 (02:02:40):
Um, I was telling Larry that I'm very grateful
that you guys do this, becauseit's definitely I've been
listening over the last coupleof weeks because Sean had to.
Um, my husband doesn't ask mefor a lot very rarely ever.
Like he is a very good provider, and more than just monetary,
emotionally, physically, all ofit, spiritually, and so when my
husband asked me for somethinglike that's usually I'm not

(02:03:02):
going to tell you now, and hehad asked me for a week and a
half to come on here and I waslike, oh no, no, like you're
good, you're good.
But so I started listeningbecause I was like, okay, what
the hell are we getting intohere?
You know, this is veryvulnerable and we've never, oh
for sure.
We've never.
I mean, I worked at thesheriff's department.
We were at canine dinners andhiding stories and not promoting

(02:03:25):
things or dumbing things down.
So to sit here and be veryvulnerable was a lot for me.

Speaker 2 (02:03:31):
And I appreciate it you know you're right you know
what this podcast goes to?
18 different countries.
I've had 18.
We have had 18 differentcountries.
Listen to our podcast.

Speaker 4 (02:03:42):
I caught it, fuck you , I fixed it, you prick.
I'm gonna call you next week,larry, and tell you I don't want
to, I don't want to do no youyou, fucking you.

Speaker 2 (02:03:50):
You bounce this one out, sean I, I'm going to be
pissed.
This is a good one and 6,000plus listens.
So I mean it's and I appreciateit.
As I've said and we've said,it's the one soul.
Right, it's the one soul, and Idon't know whose story or how

(02:04:11):
it's going to go or what it'sgoing to say.
You know, my change in lifecame from just somebody asking
me why are you turning thosechairs around?
It's something that simpleChanged my world, and you know
what you're saying is.
You know your perspectivechanged by hearing something
that was said on the podcast.
Right, I love stories.

(02:04:32):
I love not just alcoholicstories or people.
I love hearing people's storiesbecause we all have them.
Right, I love stories.
I love not just alcoholicstories or people.
I love hearing people's storiesbecause we all have them.
Right, every human being has astory.
My life ain't no different thananybody else's life, right, my
story's no different thananybody else's life.
We all grew up in the same.
We all have shitty parents.
We all have blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.

(02:04:53):
Right, I mean.
So I love stories.
I can remember going tocelebrate recovery before I got
sober and I still listen tothose podcasts, the um.
What do they call them atcelebrate recovery?
They call them.
They call them something else.
But when people get up and telltheir story testimony, thank

(02:05:14):
you.
When they get up and do theirtestimony, I can remember being
attracted to that and that wasone of the things that made me
like, even in the side of my, myalcoholism made me want to try
and get sober.
Obviously it wasn't enough, butyou know it was um.
Anyways, I went down a rabbittrail.

Speaker 5 (02:05:35):
Sorry, no go but that's kind of what we were
talking about.

Speaker 3 (02:05:37):
Off air was just and you are close to his daughter.
Yeah, in asia.

Speaker 5 (02:05:42):
Yeah, um I knew that marrying shan or sean sorry well
, shana depends on what he'swearing I'm at the gay bar, yeah
um, I knew that marrying sean II was marrying an addict and I
knew what that meant for therest of my life and I did not
take that job lightly and I knowit's always going to live in

(02:06:04):
our heads, it's always going tobe there.
But I knew like listening tothis has really helped me to not
bring it to light or that I'mconcerned about it, but
sometimes it just gets.
It's so normal, right, we don'tthink about it no more.
It's just it is what it is, butit's definitely helped to shift
my perspective on certain things, or why his brain works the way

(02:06:24):
that it does, or why, whateverCause I mean we're, sean and I
are very big into mental health,like we both go to.
We both go to active therapywe've been.

Speaker 3 (02:06:35):
We've been in therapy for years.

Speaker 5 (02:06:35):
Oh, that explains a lot then.

Speaker 4 (02:06:36):
Um, we've done marriage there before and, like
sean's perspective on there, youwant to tell your perspective
on well, it's just like I knowthere's a perception of somebody
that is sober and doesn't workthe program, you know that
they're not getting but, butspiritual side and I'm getting
you know yeah, I was gonna sayyou're not a white knuckler, no,
no he's not by far, uh-uh.

Speaker 2 (02:06:54):
I mean it's you're rare and I told you that on the
phone, but guys like you arerare but it wouldn't say it, it
still wouldn't hurt to clean.

Speaker 3 (02:07:04):
I mean to it would open up your eyes.
I mean you would, you would,once you did it not that you
need it, I would say, but youwould, you would, you would be
grateful.
Wow, I'm so grateful I did it.

Speaker 4 (02:07:15):
And even, and especially now where you're at,
yeah, and I'm sure if I openedup my big book again there would
be a lot of things in therethat resonate with you know how
I am now and how I feel now.

Speaker 5 (02:07:28):
A lot of it, too, is you have been this pillar of
openness within, like ourcommunity, and I give you a
sobriety coin every year.
You do Really.
Every year, every year Good,because 10 years.

Speaker 4 (02:07:45):
He came home in June and the house decorated and like
it's a big deal we celebrate.
It was a badass one.
I got it at work, you know.

Speaker 5 (02:07:52):
But how many of those rings have you given away?
Are those coins work?
But how many of those ringshave you given away?
Are those coins Five?
And how you know, like you,they come and they seek you out
and you're such a support forthem.
Yeah, and it's.
I don't know what it is and howalcoholics, brains, I don't
know how you guys find eachother, but there's just this
secret, telepathic, it's likeyeah, it is god, it's our gay

(02:08:18):
dark.
You're right, it's god.
But you know, like it's just,you started working the program
like you know I met your sponsor, you're you know I was friends
with your sponsor yeah so yeah,and it's just, we fell into well
, not fell into, but, like wedid, premarital counseling you
know what I?

Speaker 4 (02:08:37):
mean, and then from that doing the the group
counseling together.
We kind of did our owncounseling separately, right,
and that kind of didn't fill thevoid of working the program but
it kind of did right.

Speaker 3 (02:08:50):
It does I mean, because I have my own person,
that I could talk to it'saccountability and it's it's
openness, yeah so what are yourquestions?
I was kidding fuck is yourproblem he's wanting to say
something fuck sean.

Speaker 2 (02:09:04):
He's wanting to say, no, I, I just.
There's a few things and you,you're, you're through your
story.
I have a little go go, go.
I want Sean to finish his storybecause yeah we got distracted.
Can I interrupt?
No, shut up, I'm kidding, Ihave things to say, sir.

Speaker 5 (02:09:23):
Okay, like I don't know if I said it earlier, but
Sean's never.
We've never sat down and hadthese conversations.
We've had the conversations.
I put the pieces together.
I love this man with my wholeheart, but to sit down across
from him from a table and hearthis and knowing that the
prerequisite not prerequisite,but the pre-conversations that
we had to this is our oldestdaughter, his oldest daughter,

(02:09:47):
however you want to word it, um,she doesn't know his story and
this, the reckon, thereconciliation that's happened
over the last since easter ispretty much when all all the
reconciliation has beenhappening.
And we met in june and sheincluded me and I'm very

(02:10:11):
gracious of that and she I lovethat kid and like um, but for
her to hear it from thisperspective and have like Sean
and I were talking, like he wasexplaining to me, he's like she
has the opportunity to listen tothis and press pause and ask
questions rather than sit downand let me just dictate to you
my entire life, and for her tohear it from this great point,

(02:10:33):
absolutely Like what an honorand what an honor it is to be
married to a man like this thatis able to sit down and clearly
depict that, and I'm verygrateful that you guys are
giving him this opportunity andour family's opportunity yeah,
as soon as he reached out andtold me I was not, I mean he.

Speaker 3 (02:10:50):
Well, and to know that someone's working a program
or the program.
Right is when a man or womanowns their shit yes, doesn't
justify it, doesn't rationalizeit, doesn't minimize it owns
their part of everything whichhe does.

Speaker 5 (02:11:02):
He does.

Speaker 3 (02:11:04):
That's a man of God.
In my opinion, that's a man ofGod, period.

Speaker 2 (02:11:07):
That's how a man handles business.
Yeah, I mean, you honestly wentdown, mary.
You opened up something that Iwas wait hold on.
Sorry.
I have mine written down so Idon't forget.
I want Sean to finish.
I want to make sure Sean hasevery ounce of the platform he
needs for that purpose rightthere.

Speaker 4 (02:11:31):
Okay, so it is.
I'll pick up right after ourbaptism um in 22 um, and I
remember me and mary having aconversation about how, um I
need to make a decision, what'sgoing to happen, how I'm going
to approach um, contacting mydaughter and reaching out and

(02:11:55):
trying to have that relationshipwith my oldest daughter and she
pushes me to do it Like she'sall this is not right, like I'm
technically her stepmother andI'm not comfortable with this.

Speaker 5 (02:12:07):
Like I'm not comfortable, not right, thank
you.

Speaker 4 (02:12:10):
Right, thank you.
And so it was around that timein 22 that I consistently
started texting my daughter,whether she responded or not.
Consistently, on her birthdayholidays I would text her and
wish her a happy holiday orhappy birthday and tell her that

(02:12:34):
I love her.
You know, um, and I didn'talways get a response back.
And I remember I had texted herabout um mary being pregnant
and my youngest daughter beingborn and she had wrote back.
She said, when the time isright, I would love to meet her

(02:12:59):
and I didn't read too much in itat the time, but it was a
premonition of what was to comeright.
And I don't think I got aresponse back from my oldest
since Thanksgiving of 23.
And I'd reached out to her onEaster of this year and she

(02:13:26):
responded back and I'm like Mary, what do I do?
Like, how do I handle this?
She's all respond back Tell herwhat you want On her terms, in
any capacity.
This is what I'm looking for.
Is this a possibility?

Speaker 2 (02:13:46):
What was her response to you to cause that thought
process?

Speaker 5 (02:13:53):
Let me you want me to answer?

Speaker 2 (02:14:01):
Well, obviously, while your finger twitching.
There's been a lot ofconversation there has third
Good.

Speaker 4 (02:14:06):
So there has not been um one day that has passed
since Easter that either I havetext her or she has text me,
which I couldn't imagine, youknow it's fine you can
paraphrase it Um, basically shesaid I hope that you and your

(02:14:33):
family are doing well.
Um, how is, how is my youngestdaughter doing?
Right Like, okay, that's a,that's all a branch, right Like?

Speaker 2 (02:14:47):
that's, that's a conversation.
Yes, that's not a high.
That's not, that's a.
That's a, that's a conversation.

Speaker 4 (02:14:52):
It is.
And so from there, you know, Itook my wife's advice and told
her what, you know, I wanted andif she would be willing to, you
know, accept any of that, Ifshe would be willing to have a

(02:15:14):
relationship, whatever it lookedlike you know with me and she
basically said you know I would.
I would like to start fresh, noexpectations, um, I said that's
fine.
How would you like tocommunicate?
You know phone calls, facetimetext.
She's all uncomfortable withtext like perfect, like this is

(02:15:38):
what we'll do.

Speaker 2 (02:15:39):
And you were okay with that.

Speaker 4 (02:15:40):
I was.
I was more than okay to have aa continual um open dialogue,
yes.
And she had let me know um thatshe would be coming to
California they visit every yearto visit family, right, and
would I like to get together.

(02:16:01):
And she proposed that she did,she did and, of course, yes, yes
, I would um.
And then she had to reconfirm.
the closer it got, I'm like my,my decision hasn't changed, you
know right of course, um, andthen I wanted to know if she
just wanted me, me and her, oryou know the family, and

(02:16:25):
obviously you know in myselfishness like, yes, I just
want me and my daughter.
Oh, for sure, I can imagine, Iwant that Right, right, but, um,
her boyfriend was with her andshe wanted to bring her

(02:16:48):
boyfriend and you know, probablycomfortable for her.
Yes, yes, safety, blanket typeof type of thing.
That's, that's perfectly fine.
I want to meet the person thatyou her life spent him, her life
was right, um, and she wantedto meet mary and and my youngest
daughter, um, so, yeah, we setup, set up the date to meet, we,
we went out to dinner, we wentout to Dust Bowl and, yeah, I
don't know why that's, but, okay, and I don't know if it was
subconsciously, but I think Itold you, larry, like, like,

(02:17:14):
does my daughter drink, you know, right?

Speaker 2 (02:17:17):
Right Now.
We talked about this, yeah, anddoes.

Speaker 4 (02:17:19):
Is this passed down for me, like, do you have
potential for a problem RightNow that we talked about this?
Yeah, and as as this passeddown for me, like, do you have
potential for a problem?
Right?
And we ordered drinks, and theyboth ordered sodas, I think,
and I had brought it up.
I'm like do you, do you like todrink?
She said in high school, youknow, like every high school kid

(02:17:40):
or whatever but, she saidreally, not really, um, and that
just like thank God, right, youknow cause.

Speaker 5 (02:17:48):
Those are conversations that we've had,
yeah, like is this, is thissomething she struggles with?
Is this something?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:17:56):
Did I give her the worst part of me?

Speaker 4 (02:17:57):
Right yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:18:10):
And then somebody told me it skips generation.

Speaker 3 (02:18:11):
I'm like great.
So my youngest?
Um no, but I didn't skipgenerations in my family.
I don't, I don't think that'skids is right in the face.

Speaker 4 (02:18:15):
Um, but you know, awkward.
It was awkward, but I just cameout and said this is awkward,
you know, and this is good foryou.
I've been waiting for this forso long.
I explained to her how muchguilt and shame Right there in
the middle of the decibel.
Yeah, god damn how much guiltand shame that I carry for what

(02:18:37):
I did to her.

Speaker 2 (02:18:38):
Good for you, good for fucking you, god damn Good
for you.

Speaker 4 (02:18:42):
What came fucking you ?
God damn Good for you.
What came out of her mouth next?
I did not expect she's all.
I was so young that one day youwere there and one day you
weren't, and you had to go fixyourself.
I don't blame you, I don'tblame you and I don't blame you.

(02:19:05):
I believe I'm paraphrasing yeah, basically that she does not
she didn't have any resentmentto you right and because if it
was me and my parent did that tome like I've seen all kinds of
resentment.

Speaker 5 (02:19:24):
Most times she told him you wouldn't be where you
are today and we wouldn't besitting here had you not done
what you did oh yeah and what?

Speaker 4 (02:19:34):
21 year old right, she thanked mary, she's all I
want to thank you, because hetold me he wouldn't be here
without you because I opened thetable up I said hey, I know
we're all on comfy, do you haveanything you want to ask?

Speaker 5 (02:19:46):
because the way we run our house is an open book.
So what do you want to know?
This is not you don't have tobe embarrassed like.
We will answer wholeheartedlyand honestly.
If it ever hurts, what can we,how can we help you heal and
what can we do to support you?
What do you need?

Speaker 2 (02:20:02):
And the response, or?
Sorry, I'm wanting detail, I'msorry, I'm like I literally I
want to be on the tablelistening to this, because this,
this is incredible.
So what?
So where are you at?
I don't want to miss anything.
I want to know where you're atnow, but I don't want to miss
anything from that dust bowl tonow.

(02:20:24):
Where are you guys at right now?

Speaker 4 (02:20:27):
I'm still uh texting back and forth conversations
daily conversations.
Her, her boyfriend, has afour-year-old daughter, um, and
it's summertime so they'regetting her like every other
week.
So when my youngest was born,like I wanted so bad for her not
to grow up and not wantanything to do with me and it's

(02:20:53):
just my mind, right I did thatto my oldest and there'd be no
fucking reason for my youngestto not want to but we had had
some multiple conversations.

Speaker 5 (02:21:03):
I mean, we had five years to prep for a kid, so
there was a lot of conversationshappening about how I wanted to
parent, how I wanted to style,how this was going to go down,
hopefully, and one of the bigconversations we had had was you
will not parent my child out ofthe guilt and the the lack of
healing from what has takenplace.

Speaker 2 (02:21:24):
Amen.

Speaker 5 (02:21:24):
My child will not pay that price.

Speaker 2 (02:21:25):
Oh, wow.
And how did you accept that?

Speaker 4 (02:21:29):
It's, it's all right.
I mean, I still work at it.
To this day.
Like it's.
It's very hard, cause I don'twant to be the bad person, cause
I don't want to give her anyreason not to.

Speaker 2 (02:21:38):
You can overdo it, though I would think.
I don't want to sound like I'mcoming from a psychologist's
brain, but I could imagine youmay overcompensate, like your
mother did, I think.
I would.
Yeah, I think I would.
I think it's me because I knowhow much guilt I carry in me and
we're going to try to fix andovercompensate.
And I think Katie sometimesgets frustrated because I'm over

(02:22:00):
the top, wanting to do whateverI fucking can for her.
So I try to make up for all theshit I put her through in one
day.
I mean.
So I can imagine.
And same with my daughters,right, I mean I'll do for them
what I've never done.

Speaker 3 (02:22:18):
Remember that's not love.

Speaker 2 (02:22:19):
No, it's not, it's not.

Speaker 3 (02:22:21):
I want my daughter to have, or my child to have, this
because I didn't provide forthe first one, or you know, and
that's that's not love.
You know, it may look like love, it may seem like love because
we're going to provide for, butmake sure that it's it's it's
got to be and love.

(02:22:43):
Love takes different forms andit's not always in a gift.
It's sometimes it's notreceiving the gift of not giving
.
You know, withholding at times,but I think you'd be, I mean,
you, let god lead, you'll befine, but but that's beautiful
way you said it.
We don't parent.
How to get like your mother did.
You were deprived of a father,so I'm going to give you the,
the pickup, I'm gonna give youall this.
That's not love, that's juststuff.

Speaker 5 (02:23:03):
Yeah and I think the pendulum swung so far for him
when we had our daughter and I'mI'm a first-time mom, but it
swung so far over that it was ithad to be corrected and the
through conversations that we'vehad and just like hey, god was
preparing you with those fiveyears Beautiful.
There is a reason that Godwaited five years to give us her

(02:23:24):
.

Speaker 2 (02:23:25):
How hard did you cry when you held her for the first
time.

Speaker 4 (02:23:30):
Oh, it was overwhelming the amount of love
and joy I felt holding her,because I wasn't able to do that
with my oldest Right.
I was in the middle of gettingkicked out of the army.
You weren't there when she wasborn.
You were mentally not eventhere.

Speaker 5 (02:23:46):
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (02:23:47):
I mean with the alcohol, the drugs, we weren't,
we were stuffing and burying,and you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:23:54):
The birth of my two first grandkids.
It was all right, can we go geta drink now, Right, yeah.
And then, when I got the whole,my Everly emotions.

Speaker 4 (02:24:05):
Yeah, right, yeah, and just going through the
experience with Mary and likethe whole experience, the whole
time, and you know, almostcatching her when she came out.

Speaker 5 (02:24:16):
Well, they told me to stop pushing cause they didn't
have a doctor.

Speaker 3 (02:24:19):
And.

Speaker 5 (02:24:19):
I literally said, said that doesn't sound like my
problem my husband will get mydaughter move, you're right and
they're like you have to wait,you have to wait, you have to
stop.
And I'm like, no, get the fuckaway from me, I can do this
myself move but I, I knowanything's possible.

Speaker 4 (02:24:37):
You know, being with this woman right here who has
pushed me.
You know, from 2015 till now,like so many great things have
come into my life and happenedto my life because of her, and I
know that she has nothing to dowith my sobriety, but she has
everything to do with mysobriety yeah um, good way to

(02:25:00):
say it.
You know she's we bought a.
You know we bought a housetogether before we were married.
She had pushed me to go to theva to get disability.

Speaker 5 (02:25:11):
We bought a house together because I said I'm not
paying or we're not paying for awedding, I'm coming home to pay
somebody else's fucking renttrue true, um, but she pushed me
to go to the va for fordisability compensation that you
know I was 20 years out of themilitary right.

Speaker 4 (02:25:28):
There's no way they're gonna get me, and sure
enough like I said, buddy,you're, you got some.

Speaker 5 (02:25:33):
You got some problems .
We need to go get checked out,you know.

Speaker 4 (02:25:35):
And I had forgotten the stuff that was in my out
processing packet.
You know what I mean because ifyou're, if you're enlisted,
they're just gonna push youthrough unless you're, you know
you get that dd214, yeah, yeahum.
So you know it helps us outgreatly, you know, in monetary
value for our family yeah, butmore than that you've been able.

Speaker 5 (02:25:59):
You just completed your bachelor's.
You're taking a certificatecourse at UCLA right now.
Yeah, you're projected to startyour master's in the fall.

Speaker 2 (02:26:06):
Yeah, why don't you talk about yourself?
What the fuck is wrong with youguys that do this?
Who did we find out, like twodays after?
Oh, it was Mike that had adaughter that didn't talk about
it.

Speaker 5 (02:26:18):
I'm like what the fuck, it's because you need to
bring the wives on.

Speaker 2 (02:26:22):
No kid was here, you ain't kidding, you ain't kidding
, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:26:30):
And from a kid that had to go to night school to
graduate high school and didn'thave no interest in college
after high school Because I hadthe opportunity right through my
dad being 100% disabled veteran.
They would have paid for myhigh school paid for my.

Speaker 3 (02:26:42):
Oh, for sure.

Speaker 4 (02:26:42):
Anywhere.
I want Right, except forHarvard.
Right, I dicked around.
Right, I enrolled at Merced JCand went to one class.
Fuck, never went back.
I enrolled, you know, took somebullshit, fucking classes at
Modesto and fucking.

Speaker 5 (02:26:57):
Yeah, but it wasn't God's timing.

Speaker 4 (02:26:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:27:03):
And yeah, but it wasn't god's timing, right, and
that was the baseline.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, all in god's timing.
So a couple questions before wewrap up your graphic design.
Are you still doing that?

Speaker 4 (02:27:09):
um, I do, I do, I dabble, I still have my uh, you
sell it, no, okay, no, I uh, Ican create and I love creating.
I just haven't had theopportunity for for anybody Um
other than myself you can make agraphic design for FFS studios,
for ours.

(02:27:30):
I would love to.

Speaker 2 (02:27:32):
I would love to hang something up in here.
That would be pretty fuckingcool.

Speaker 3 (02:27:35):
Yeah, you know, what FFS stands for.

Speaker 4 (02:27:37):
No, I do not, for fuck's sake.

Speaker 2 (02:27:39):
You know why?
Cause every time I bought newmics or something, katie, that
was Katie's response.
For fuck's sake, what now?
Need a thousand, need athousand.
Yeah, I mean, you said that, soI was just curious about that.
What are you studying in school?

Speaker 4 (02:27:56):
So I got my bachelor's in business marketing
.

Speaker 2 (02:27:58):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:28:00):
I'm currently taking a project management certificate
program okay, uh, through uclaand then most likely my master's
is going to be in businessmarketing well, you want to
market this, this podcast.

Speaker 2 (02:28:12):
For me, sure, dude.
Like I said on the last one, ifanybody wants to, anybody wants
to run influence in it, then Iwould anybody wants to run my
social media, I'd be more thanhappy, because I I'm going to
you, that's.
I'm horrible at it.
I'm horrible at it and I've hada few people try to do it, but
because I'm not the anyways, Idon't want to go down that road.

(02:28:32):
It's just it takes somebodythat knows what they're doing.
It does do that side of it,sean, I mean the, the sobriety
side of things.

Speaker 4 (02:28:43):
Like I remember when I first got sober there was
o'doul's.
Right now you have 805.
You guys here in nevada, likeeverybody's jumping on board and
we've even talked about openingup a, a sober bar right like
cigar bar, sober bar, like it'sthe stigma around being sober,

(02:29:03):
it's like it's cool.
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:29:05):
There's a lot.
There is a.
That is very right.

Speaker 4 (02:29:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:29:08):
I mean what's funny is I want to be careful how I
say this, because I know peoplepeople are using their sobriety
because it is cool, not becausethey're sick, right, right, and
I that frustrates me when I seeit, because I know it right,
they're using their sobrietybecause it's the cool thing to
do and there's a lot peoplepushing their marketing because

(02:29:29):
of it.
The you know what?
I?
I follow a lot of sober pages,you know, for studying of the
podcast and there's just there'sso much monetary stuff
happening because of sobrietyand it fucking pisses me off
when I see it.
I I had somebody trying toreach out to, wanted to be,

(02:29:51):
wanted to be on the show, right,and come to find out he was
pushing a marketing side that hewanted just to do some
marketing and call and do, and Iwas fucking livid and I was
like how many more of thesemotherfuckers are out there
taking using what we worked sofucking hard to get and many

(02:30:13):
people work so hard to get andtrying to monetize on it?
All right, you fucking prick.
Yeah, I was pissed, so I'm.
You know there's a lot ofpeople that make money doing
this but are recovering.
Addicts are recovering, are aresolidly into it and they should

(02:30:34):
be making money doing what theydo because they're smart.
Yeah, they know what they'redoing.
We have a lady coming up from lawho owns two recovery centers
and a recovery center for forhorses.
She works her ass off.
Following her is a blast andshe finally reached back.
I've been texting her sincelike august the last year and

(02:30:55):
she finally decided to come.
She finally answered me.
So they're.

Speaker 4 (02:30:59):
My point is is it's just anyways, I went down a
fucking rabbit hole because itpisses me off yeah, yeah, no,
understandably like, and youknow, I feel like I'm a, I'm uh,
I feel like I would have theright to do something like that
I'm so fucking loot and it, itexcites me, like to do something
like but then, but then again.

(02:31:20):
Oh, in another 10 years is thatgoing to be popular, right?

Speaker 3 (02:31:24):
Is it a fad, one day at a time?

Speaker 4 (02:31:26):
Cigar bars.
Cigar bars.

Speaker 2 (02:31:28):
Problem is, for us alcoholics, this ain't no
fucking fad.
No Right, for real alcoholicsit ain't a fad.
Yeah, sean, anything you wantto leave us with.

Speaker 4 (02:31:47):
I'll just say you know, one day at a time, and
recovery is not a destination,it's a journey, and I'm happy to
have met you know, are you?

Speaker 2 (02:31:52):
been rob and and you know, I think our brother brad
says this right I don't care howyou get sober, as long as you
stay sober, right, and I mean Iand I said this a little bit ago
he is an anomaly for somebodythat can stay, that be 10 years
sober and not white knuckled.

Speaker 3 (02:32:13):
Well, let's be honest .
Who's keeping him sober?
God?
Well, no, geez.
Oh, all right, I say my power,we got well, God, same higher
power we got.
For me it's God maybe he was acertain type of heartbreaker.
I think he's definitely one ofus but he's doing it the same
way we are he's going tocounseling getting baptized, but
you know what?
He needs to do, he needs tocome join us on Monday nights

(02:32:35):
and I'll take him to the stepsand he'll get a second eye
opener.

Speaker 2 (02:32:39):
I knew that shit was coming.
I told you, sean he'll get asecond eye opener and he'll be
even more I told you he's gonnafucking hit you with that
there's so much more freedomthat you can get there is, and
you know the thing is, 10 yearssober.
All that.
He's awesome.
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (02:32:58):
I love it this is one of my favorite ones.
I love it no, thank you.
Mary, thank you for coming.

Speaker 2 (02:33:03):
No, thank you for asking that right and thank you
for thinking of that, becauseshe is a huge part of your story
.
You know what I'm going tothrow this out there because,
especially if your daughter islistening, there's a seat there
for you and there's a seat rightthere for her.
That would just absolutely beamazing, and God can do all

(02:33:23):
things as you know.

Speaker 5 (02:33:24):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:33:24):
I mean it would be absolutely amazing.
It was the most difficult thingI ever had to do was sit across
from my daughters and listen tothem I could imagine pour their
hearts out, but, and and mywife but, the amount of healing

(02:33:44):
that happened for my daughtershappening, and it's still
happening, yeah, and the thoughtof them coming on to the show
the weeks come leading up to itwas healing because of the
conversations that happened themonth before katie up, not even
the months the the whole yearprior, because Katie and we'd

(02:34:06):
been talking about it for thewhole year prior.
The conversations that happenedwere healing and open.
It's just incredible.
And and I just I wouldliterally fly from wherever I'm
at If she's here and says, hey,we want to record tomorrow.
I know that man sitting acrossfrom me would do it.
So, without a doubt, to havesomething like that, my seat, my

(02:34:28):
house, my seats are open foryou, our seats, just absolutely.
Larry, she's here, let's go,I'm, I'm there.
We'll heat these mics up in aheartbeat.
I appreciate that it.
It's a healing process.
Man, it's a healing process andyou know to do it in this forum
, right?
I think, mary, you said that aminute ago.
It's just relaxed, right?

Speaker 3 (02:34:49):
it's just relaxed.
You should forget about.

Speaker 2 (02:34:51):
These are even there yeah, it's just a relaxed
setting and anyways, I'm goingdown that rabbit hole.
I want to make sure you knowthat's.
That's a thousand percentavailable for you to open.
Yeah, okay, rob rob's on a hardout, we gotta go.
Thank you two, very much, thankyou very much this opportunity
all right, thank you, see you, Ineed your help.
Oh god bless.

(02:35:11):
I can't tell you what it is.
You can never let me hear thathe's watched the town.
I feel like thank you forjoining us today.
We hope you learned somethingtoday that will help you If you
did not come back next week andwe'll try again If you like what
we heard, give us a five-starreview.

Speaker 3 (02:35:28):
If you don't like what you heard, kiss my ass.
I can't say that, can you?
Anyway, if you don't like whatyou heard, go ahead and tell us
that too.
We'll see what we can improve.
We probably won't changenothing, but do it anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:35:37):
Hey, thanks, rob.
Come back next week andhopefully something will be
different and something willsink in.
Take care, this has beenRecovery, unfiltered.
You, thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:35:43):
Thank you.

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