December 15, 2023 • 29 mins
Worried about the current state of the labor market? Wondering how it's been impacting the recruitment process? Well, today, host William Tincup engages in an insightful conversation with Terry Terhark, a seasoned recruiter and industry expert. Together, they dive into the 2023 Recruiter Nation Report findings and explore the key takeaways from this comprehensive research.
So, how do you explain the crazy talent market of today? Well, Terry highlights the changing dynamics and the impact of factors such as recession and talent surplus on the availability of qualified candidates. He explains the complexities of the current talent market, which defies traditional patterns, and emphasizes the role of candidates' behavior in shaping it.
Delving further, Terry discusses the role of hiring managers and the importance of their training. They analyze the need for hiring managers to understand the nuances of recruitment and adapt their approach to cater to the demands of the market. The conversation also explores the significance of speed in the recruitment process and the impact it has on the overall quality of the candidate experience.
With a deep understanding of the labor market and recruitment trends, Terry provides valuable insights and actionable strategies to navigate the challenges recruiters face in today's candidate-driven market.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William Tincup (00:32):
Ladies and gentlemen, this is William
Tincup, and you're listening tothe Recruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have Terry on fromEmploy.
We'll be talking about the 2023Recruiter Nation Report
findings.
So basically, I want to getTerry's take on, uh, the
recruiter, the report itself.
And they, you know, they doresearch.
They've done research like thisfor a long time.
(00:53):
But it's nice to get aprofessional, someone, Terry's
been in the industry for a longtime, but it's gonna be really
wonderful just kind of get histake on what he sees in the
research or the findings.
So, Terry, would you do us afavor and, uh, introduce
yourself?
Absolutely.
William,
Terry Terhark (01:09):
thanks so much.
Uh, again, my name is TerryTarhark.
I've been in recruiting forabout 30 years and certainly
have watched it change over theyears.
Excited to share my perspectivesof the Recruiter Nation report
and what we see occurring withinrecruiting and talent
acquisition today.
So, uh, excited to, to provideour perspectives.
William Tincup (01:30):
Sure.
So, all right, so let's juststart with the, the basics here.
You've, you've been in theindustry for a long time.
You've seen these, you'veprobably, you've created, your
teams have created research.
So, uh, so you've, you've,you've, you've got the full
spectrum.
What did, uh, what came out whenyou looked at the results the
first time, probably in a draftmode, what stuck out to you?
Terry Terhark (01:53):
Yeah, good, good question.
And you're right, you know, overthe years, we've certainly seen,
um, you know, considerableresearch.
The Recruiter Nation report is,you know, kind of our premier
effort as it relates toresearch.
And, uh, it's something that notonly I, but our organization
plays, pays considerableattention to, um, you know, I
(02:16):
think that we saw a movement interms of relief of pressure
within the labor markets.
Thank you.
As we all know, you know, 21 and22 were, you know, probably a
run up, uh, in, in terms of, uh,the vibrancy of the labor
markets, certainly than thatI've seen over the last 30
years, uh, and we, and we sawsome of that pressure kind of
(02:37):
come back and there was a coupleof, you know, kind of key
statistics, uh, such as numberof applications per posting, um,
you know, just the, the, Uh, youknow, stress and, and, and
relief that recruiters have seenover the past year.
Uh, still tremendous pressure incertain segments, which is no
(02:58):
surprise.
Um, but, you know, I, I thinkjust, you know, if we look at
year over year, kind of ageneral decline of the intense
pressure that we saw in 21 and22.
Right.
William Tincup (03:11):
You know, you've, I was about to, I was
about to say, you, you've seen alot of markets kind of come and
go.
How do you.
I mean, as I get asked thequestion, I'm sure you get asked
the same question.
How do you explain this talentmarket?
You know, cause as it relates tolike, normally when we have some
type of, uh, you know, we havesome type of, let's say a
recession, normally there's atalent surplus, right?
(03:36):
So they kind of go hand in hand.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you know, the economy bad,talent, you know, easier to get,
easier to find, cheaper, youknow, all the, all the things
that some, some folks love.
This one's been just strangefrom the get go, like, are we in
a recession?
Are we not in a recession?
Are we in a talent shortage?
Are we not in a talent shortage?
Like, are the candidatesdifferent?
(03:59):
So when you get asked thatquestion, which seems like a
benign, easy question to answer,and I think in the years past it
probably was for us, how do youanswer, how do you respond to
people?
Terry Terhark (04:08):
Yeah, great question, William, and it's one
that, you know, I've spent a lotof time trying to figure out
these labor markets.
Um, and, and I've, you know,told our clients and, and
whomever I, you know, can yellto that this is the most awkward
labor market that I've everseen, certainly in, in my
experience.
And, you know, a couple things.
(04:29):
That kind of stand out to meand, you know, certainly
interrupt me if I go too long onthis, but the number of open
jobs is kind of a criticalelement.
You know, we saw open jobs go up5.
8 percent last month.
We're at 9.
6 million open jobs.
As you know, we were closer to12 million for about a year.
So the number of open jobs is,is critical in this equation
(04:52):
around the, around the labormarkets.
Even with the Fed, uh, you know,raising interest rates,
theoretically that should bringdown the number of open jobs,
but it hasn't.
And if we look at pre pandemic,the The high point of open jobs
was around 6.
4 million.
So, you know, kind of postpandemic being at, you know, 9
million, 9.
6 million, up to 12 million,almost double of what we've
(05:15):
seen.
So the big thing for me, atleast the aha for me, has been
the labor force participationrate.
So, you know, if we look at, youknow, the last 10 years or so of
labor force participation,meaning who, those who are
available are actively working,that percentage has come down
from September 19 of 63.
(05:36):
3 percent To September of 23 of62.
6 percent doesn't seem like abig number, but you're talking,
you know, seven tenths of apercentage point on what 300
million population, you know,probably 200 million people that
are available to work.
So you've got a couple millionpeople less in the labor
(05:56):
markets, and that is what iscontinuing the pressure, in my
opinion.
The other thing that I've seen,and definitely over the last
year, William, is a dichotomy ofwhere the pressure is located.
Frontline hiring, meaning, youknow, hospitality, retail,
warehouse, etc., manufacturing,that, that is as pressured as it
(06:18):
was 12 months ago.
Has, has really not changed alot.
Companies are still very muchstruggling with trying to get
the right talent into theirorganization and not seeing, The
level of applicants or thequality of applicants they
desire.
Now, we have seen wholesalechanges in technology and life
sciences and other industries.
(06:39):
And I would say across theboard, there's been a malaise of
disempowering.
So companies have been supertight.
on backfilling or opening newrequisitions for exempt.
So you have all these, you know,uh, uh, you know, people that
are in the labor market that arelooking for jobs that are
exempt, uh, but you have all ofthese jobs, uh, in, in
(07:01):
frontline, and there's amismatch of where people are
unemployed.
I think the number of unemployedpeople right now is 3.
8%.
We're at 6.
4 million people.
If you just use that numberagainst 9.
6 million jobs, not enoughpeople to fill the jobs, but
it's complicated when there'sdefinitely a mismatch of people
(07:25):
that are unemployed versus The,the jobs that are out there.
Does that make sense?
Oh, a hundred
William Tincup (07:30):
percent.
And I wonder how candid behaviorplays into this because, uh,
when, when I look at the highvolume or hourly market,
however, however you want tophrase it, it's, I also look at,
you know, Gen Z and somemillennials, they, they just, if
the job doesn't fit them to findthat as you wish, they just
(07:51):
rather not work or.
I think probably moreappropriate, they'll work
differently.
So instead of taking the job atTaco Bell, for instance, they
won't take the job or they tookthe job.
They, they went there for acouple of days, tried it, didn't
work out, don't, they didn'tlike it.
And then they just, the, the,uh, um, now they're an Uber
(08:12):
driver.
So they're creating the samerevenue for themselves as they
would have through kind of atraditional fast food job, but
they're doing it in a differentway.
So it's like this collision ofthe gig economy and hourly and
also candidate behavior justbeing like you and I grew up.
You, you got a job, you stayedthere,
Terry Terhark (08:33):
you
William Tincup (08:35):
fought through whatever, whatever stuff that
was there.
And you're just like, eh,there's not a, the grass isn't
greener on the other side of thefence.
Like, yeah, you just took a job.
You went there and it's, that'sit.
It's no big deal.
Uh, there, what I'm, I'menvious, I've said this before,
I'm envious of Gen Z in thesense that they're just
unwilling to put up with whatyou and I would have just put up
(08:57):
with normally.
So how do you, how do you see
Terry Terhark (09:00):
that playing out?
No, I couldn't agree more,William.
I think that the, you know, kindof the gig economy and the
ability for people to managetheir own schedule, kind of, you
know, somewhat manage the levelof income that they're able to
generate week over week, youknow, has changed this, you
know, we have seen over the lastcouple of years, the level of
ghosting and whether that'sghosting of interviews or
(09:22):
ghosting of actually showing upfor work.
I mean, It's, it's, it's not asbad as it was a year ago, but it
is still very prevalent.
I mean, you know, people that goto work, to your point, you
know, they'll, they'll work forhalf a day and they'll leave at
lunchtime.
And they're just like, no, I'vegot to do this.
There's too many jobs out therethat I can go find.
And I think that, that supply,you know, especially for
(09:43):
frontline workers is, is, is soample that, you know, they, they
don't I have to do the thingsthat maybe you and I, uh, you
know, did, did in the past.
I've heard it,
William Tincup (09:54):
I've heard it said like this, like we probably
had a point in our lives, wethought of early stage talent as
just a faucet.
Like we just turn on the faucetand people show up and then, and
then we just kind of turn offthe faucet when we don't need
them.
And now candidates are viewingcompanies.
Like that.
They just turn on the faucetwhen they want a job or a gig or
(10:15):
whatever, and then they justturn off the faucet.
So it's, it's, it's a weird wayof looking at how things have
been commoditized.
We've probably historicallyeither underestimated or
Undervalued or maybe evencommoditized, the early stage
talent, now they're doing thesame thing to
Terry Terhark (10:33):
corporations.
There's no question that jobsare commoditized, particularly
at the frontline level.
One of the things that I wantedto talk about is, you know,
candidate behavior.
So 21 and 22, you know, mostcompanies who have had that
mentality, like you mentioned,If I can just turn on the
faucet, I can get, you know, anice supply of candidates very
(10:55):
easily.
I'm a good payer.
I'm a good brand, etc.
You know, really had to changethe way that they approached it
because of all the pressure thatwe saw in 21 and 22.
Now that we've seen thatpressure back off a little bit,
I've heard from so manycompanies that, all right, we're
back to an employer market.
I think it's a little bit offool's gold, William, and it's
(11:16):
much that, you know, all thenumbers that I've seen.
is that we are going to see thelabor market challenges through
2030, uh, and largely because ofthe labor force participation
rate that we won't see it startto come back up until around
that time.
So I just urge companies to, youknow, not take away the things
that they did to improvecandidate experience, to improve
(11:39):
the speed of their, of theirprocess.
And, you know, even if I look atsome of the results of the
questions in the RecruiterNation survey, Absolutely kind
of reiterated or emphasized thatcandidate experience is still
kind of the, uh, the holy grailof, of what we seek for in, in
recruiting and talentacquisition.
(11:59):
Let me get your
William Tincup (11:59):
take on this that, uh, I was talking to
somebody that's in the hourlymarket the other day and their
bit was, Hey, listen, I, I, uh,you know, I'll apply to several
jobs.
And, uh, it's, it's usually thepeople that get back to me with
a quality response, the fastestthat I go with.
No question.
And I was like, explain that,like, you know, take me into
(12:20):
that world because I'munfamiliar with this.
He's just like, you know what?
It kind of shows, it kind ofshows me how, not just how they
treat talent, but how they're,they're modernized.
Like it's, it's really, it wasfascinating because I was like,
well, okay, explain it.
He's like, if they can explain,if they can get back to me and
it happens fast.
(12:42):
And it happens in a quality way,so it's personalized, but it's,
you know, personalized in such away, like, hey, thank you for
your resume, or thank you foruploading your thing, you know,
this, that, and the other,here's what we'd like to do,
blah, blah, blah, blah, takethem to the next step.
He, it, it, what he was sayingto me is, he's like, it's, it's
a tell.
Into the organization, like, arethey actually modern or not?
(13:04):
If they're not, it takes themthree weeks to respond.
And it's like, I'd never, I'dnever, I mean, corporate like
corporate candidates.
Yeah, of course they George,they, they judge, they judge
companies, especially peoplethat work in HR and talent.
We judge that stuff becausethat's what we do.
So of course we're judging, butI've never heard a.
(13:25):
An hourly candidate, this is a24 year old, I've never heard of
an hourly candidate judging acompany based on speed and
quality.
Terry Terhark (13:34):
I, um, yeah, I, yeah, appreciate you sharing
that story.
It's interesting.
But I would, um, I mean thatkind of aligns with everything
that, that I've heard and thatwe're seeing and what we're
telling our client.
So, you know, we still tell, youknow, customers today at speed
of process, meaning yourrecruiting process.
(13:54):
is the ultimate leveragingpoint.
If you're not speedy, you willlose candidates.
The other thing that I think isreally important here, when you
talk about this 24 year oldWilliam, is that everything we
do in, in our life today isserved up to us immediately.
You know, if we have a question,if we want to order food or
(14:15):
whatever it may be, we getinstant gratification from that.
Expectation of the talent,especially the younger talent is
the exact same thing.
If you do not get back to them,then you will lose them.
William Tincup (14:30):
Yeah.
It's funny because I've toldpeople from the stage like, Hey,
listen, I'll hold up my phoneand I'll go, listen, if I text
someone, I expect that they'regoing to text me
Terry Terhark (14:38):
back.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
William Tincup (14:41):
If I Facebook message or, you know, WhatsApp
or whatever, if I send you amessage, I expect something
back.
You know, even if it's, Hey,can't respond to this until
Tuesday.
That's cool.
But like, like bringing thatover to the recruiting market
and to recruiters and maybe evenhiring managers in particular
is, has been historically achallenge.
(15:02):
For
Terry Terhark (15:02):
sure.
I think that, you know, thenumber one complaint of
candidates today is not hearinganything.
And you know, you've, uh, maybenot been around as much as I
have, but that's been the numberone complaint for 20 years.
You know, hundred percent.
You know, candidates neverhearing back on, on the
disposition of, you know, theirapplication.
You know, I think.
(15:22):
You know, we live in a worldwhere technology does enable us
to do the things that candidateswant and whether, and, you know,
I tell this to our recruitersall, all the time, you know,
when you're dealing with ahiring manager, even if you
don't have an update, call themand tell them you don't have an
update.
Same thing for candidates.
(15:43):
Even if you don't have a kind ofa final disposition, just
keeping in touch with them.
And we have the tools to do itand whether it's text or email
or.
You know, something from, uh,our ATS to be able to update
them.
We can clearly do it.
Um, you know, I would urgecompanies to continue to improve
upon how quickly they're gettingback to these candidates.
(16:05):
That will save them so muchheadache down the road.
So,
William Tincup (16:08):
how do you, you know, you've dealt with
recruiters for, uh, forever.
So how do you take researchthat's like this?
So y'all built great research,some action items, here's what's
going on, which everyone wantsto know, like what's around the
corner.
So I think y'all have done agreat job, uh, with, uh, with
the, with the report.
I can hear, you know, it's amirror of sorts.
Here's what we've, here's whatwe've been asked.
(16:30):
Here's what's going to come backas answered.
Here's some things that youshould do.
How do you get recruiters toaction those things?
Like, like sometimes thishappens with research.
Research will tell you all theanswers, but for whatever
reason, I mean, recruiters arebusy.
Hiring managers, you know, it'snot their job.
They're busy as well.
So how do we get it in the, notjust in the hands, but how do we
(16:51):
get them to action the thingsthat we learn?
Terry Terhark (16:55):
So, yeah, it's a deep question, William.
Yeah, I don't think there's anykind of one specific thing that
you need to do, but I'vecertainly found in dealing with
recruiters, you know, not onlyrecently, but over the years,
just that kind of reinforcingthe data that we're seeing.
And from the research andproviding them, you know, kind
(17:16):
of the answer around that, youknow, the number one challenge
that recruiters face based uponthe Recruiter Nation survey, not
enough qualified candidates,number two, number two is
competition, um, and, and whatI've kind of read into that is
that, you know, the competition,you know, has continued to raise
wages and that's why we've seeninflation over the last couple
(17:37):
of years.
And, you know, it really is kindof sitting with the recruiter.
And providing them the resourcesto allow them to make good
decisions.
So we, the one thing that Iwould say is different today
than, you know, what has beenover the last several years is
the amount of data that we areproviding to recruiters and
whether it's compensation data,whether it's supply and demand
(17:59):
data.
You know, whether it's specificinformation around that
particular position and thechallenges of recruiting, but
really informing their hiringmanagers of what we're seeing in
the market and what is realisticand what is not realistic.
Like, we have the tools todayand it's always the recruiter's,
you know, kind of first responseto a hiring manager.
Like, you know, tight market,you know, not enough candidates,
(18:21):
but when you actually come tothe hiring manager with.
you know, real data that showsthem what they're requesting and
what's available to them.
You start to have a little bit,you know, kind of more informed
conversation.
So, you know, I guess myresponse would be, you know, how
do we equip the recruiters withthe data that allows them to do
their job, and then continuingto reinforce what are the
(18:46):
solutions that we're bringing tobear.
In a tight market.
So, uh, you know, takingadvantage of the technology,
taking advantage of the datathat we now have access to that
we didn't before.
So a
William Tincup (19:01):
couple of questions that come from that.
One is your take on.
Hiring manager training.
So one of the, you know, you gotall kinds of different takes on
this.
Uh, hiring managers, uh, shouldbe the, we should take
recruiters out of it and justwork with hiring managers cause
they know the job.
Okay.
That's pretty extreme.
Uh, you should do more trainingwith hiring managers because it
(19:21):
isn't their job.
They don't know necessarily howto recruit.
They know the job.
They know the company, they knowthe team, they know the
projects, whatever, but theydon't know how to actually
recruit and ask good interviewquestions, this, that, and the
other.
So like, what's your take?
What do you see, especially inthis market?
What should we do with hiringmanagers?
What's your, I know it'ssituational based on a company
(19:42):
or industry and stuff like that,but in general, what advice
would you give to folks?
Terry Terhark (19:46):
Yeah, I mean, I would certainly say, William,
over the past couple of yearsthat the amount of hiring
manager training, you know, hasbeen Less than, than what it
should be.
Um, you know, where I have seenthat, where companies do invest
in hiring manager training,educating them about the market,
educating them about how to sella position, you know, how to
(20:07):
recruit, you know, and I'm onewho believes very strongly that
the role of the recruiter willnever go away.
Um, you know, we hear all aboutai, it's gonna replace the role
of the recruiter.
And, you know, I've alwaysbelieved and still believe today
that.
Recruiting is a blend of art andscience, and, you know, I've
always been fascinated by howmost hiring managers feel
(20:30):
they're experts in recruiting,even though they may only do it
once or twice a year, you know,I think that it is absolutely
the role of the recruiter toconstantly train the manager
around what they're seeing inthe market and what the
realities are of the position isthat they're looking for.
You know, I have seen progressin interview training where, you
(20:53):
know, a good portion of thatinterview training is around the
market conditions.
You know, most hiring managersdon't understand the need for
speed.
You know, it's still fascinatedby companies that'll do, they'll
interview 12 candidates andthey'll, they'll interview them
with 12 hiring managers in acompany.
And it just ultimately kills theprocess.
Now, I do think we've seenreally positive movement on that
(21:15):
in the last couple of years,just because the market
necessitated that, thatcompanies, you know, candidates
were getting multiple offersand, you know, they could sign
on bonuses, cars, that's crazy.
Yeah.
Like, you know, uh, uh, flexiblework arrangements, et cetera.
So companies were kind of forcedjust out of necessity to get
(21:35):
more competitive in therecruitment process.
But as soon as, you know,there's a little bit of a
slowdown, and this isparticularly on the exempt side
or professional hiring, Youknow, companies go back to
behavior that, um, you know,isn't suited for what I consider
to be ideal recruitment.
William Tincup (21:53):
So a couple, a couple of things.
One of the things that we spedpast and, uh, I know you want to
get to is automation.
So things like with the toolsthat are, you said data earlier,
like we're sitting on all thiswonderful data that will make
recruiters smarter about all thethings they want to do, but
we're also sitting on all kindsof automation that can take some
(22:13):
of those lower value tasks outof their way.
And let them focus on the realhuman part of recruiting.
So they can actually be, I mean,again, you've dealt with a lot
of recruiters through the years,you know, a great recruiter and
a great recruiter is just, youknow, a human being that just
loves having that conversation,loves kind of being a candidate
(22:34):
advocate, you know, like they'rejust good at it.
Like you just know that they'regood at what they do because
they love it so much.
So, but they've been mired,especially in the last decade or
so with a bunch of.
Task, I'd say, even things thattake away from their schedule,
uh, and their time's been suckedaway.
So they get less and less timeto actually talk to candidates.
(22:56):
So what do you see there?
What do you see kind of, how doyou see that playing out with
more and more automation?
Again, taking the lower value,I'm not talking about taking the
higher value stuff, but thelower value stuff kind of out of
their hands, if you will.
It's being done.
They don't necessarily need todo it.
Terry Terhark (23:13):
Yeah, I mean, I could talk on this for days,
William.
You've kind of opened up one ofmy passions and, you know, I, I
talk to recruiters every singleday and, you know, um, what they
like, what they don't like, whatthey're seeing and all that, you
know, I, I, You know, very muchdetermined that a good recruiter
always has a level of empathy.
(23:35):
And, you know, part of, youknow, their drive is to be able
to put the right person in theright job.
And if that's convincing thehiring manager, convincing the
candidate to take a look, youknow, you know, being able to be
that intermediary who actuallyfacilitates that process, that
is what will never be replacedby machine learning or
automation.
(23:56):
You know, I, I And, you know,having access to, you know, all
the clients that we do, youknow, there are great
technologies out there, andthere's new technologies that
are coming out every day, andwhether that's around texting,
whether it's around automatedinterview scheduling, whether
it's around, um, rankingcandidates, you know, all those
(24:16):
types of things, I think we'restill very, very early on how
automation and technologyimpacts the role of the
recruiter.
Um, you know, we still see mostrecruiters who are handling
administrative tasks, um, but weare moving in the right
direction.
Um, I don't think mostrecruiters fear their job that's
going to be replaced by acomputer.
(24:38):
Um, but, you know, I do thinkthere's so much more room for us
to be able to improve kind ofthe experience of the recruiter
as it relates to how they'reinteracting with the hiring
manager.
Yes, we've made really goodprogress on texting.
You know, it's probably the.
One of the single things that Isee as, as benefiting the
recruiter being able to accessthat candidate immediately, get,
(25:00):
you know, kind of instantfeedback, whether that's with
the manager or with, with thecandidate.
Uh, we have, we are seeing somereally good interview scheduling
tools.
We're seeing some very goodassessments.
Um, and, but there's so muchmore that we can do to, you
know, be able to make it moreefficient or more productive for
the recruiter and for theorganization.
William Tincup (25:21):
Well, you, you mentioned scheduling.
Uh, you and I grew up in a worldwhere there was a person, or
Sally or whatever, that wastheir job.
They worked with all thesemultiple schedules, hiring
manager, the team, therecruiter, sourcer, the
candidate, you know, all these,all these different talent.
And it was through email orcalling or all this kind of, now
(25:43):
you just got a bot, goes andlooks at everybody's calendar,
comes back and says, okay,Tuesday, three o'clock, here's a
Zoom link.
Terry Terhark (25:50):
Although you, you probably will not be surprised
at how many people are stilldoing manual interview
scheduling.
It is very, very large.
Oh, my God.
You just, you just broke me.
I'm like, no,
William Tincup (26:05):
surely, surely everyone has moved to a bot.
Oh, my God.
Terry Terhark (26:08):
I guess it's in single digits.
I guess it's in single digits.
But moving in the rightdirection,
William Tincup (26:14):
for sure.
Alright, your last thing, yourfavorite advice, and this is
because you deal with the Csuite as they look at talent.
So because, you know, you, youcan talk to all day long to
recruiters and hiring managersand all the folks that work in
talent, HR, et cetera, but yourfavorite advice when you're
alone with a CEO, president,someone on the board, et cetera,
(26:34):
and you're trying to get them tothink about talent differently.
What do you, what's, what's someof the things that you say to
those folks?
Terry Terhark (26:42):
Yeah, again, it's hard to kind of single it down
to one, one point, William, but,you know, if, if there was
anything that I would tell kindof a C suite is that pay
attention to the speed of yourprocess, because that will
dictate or tell you, uh, youknow, the quality of your
process.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, so the outcomes, you know,are, in my opinion, are driven
(27:04):
largely, you know, by howefficient or how speedy you are
in your process.
You know, I.
I do counsel C suites on aregular basis and I tell them do
not be fooled by this kind ofeconomic, uh, situation we've
been in for the last year.
You know, we are not, we are notout of the woods in terms of the
(27:26):
pressure on the labor markets.
Finding the right talent isgoing to be as difficult as it
has been, uh, in the next fiveyears.
Keep the, keep the foot on theaccelerator.
It's so common for companies toreduce their recruiting team or
reduce their investments inrecruiting.
When they see a generalslowdown, I get it.
I've managed budgets, but
William Tincup (27:46):
this is the time to actually double down and get
your process
Terry Terhark (27:49):
right.
100%.
William Tincup (27:52):
Yeah.
100%.
I'd say the same thing.
I, it's a mixture of quality andspeed and I say, but usually I
go to look at the rest of theirbusiness.
They're in a, you know, consumermarket.
I'm like, okay, so listen,you're, you, this is how you
treat your customers, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Your employees are just likeyour customers.
Your candidates are just likeyour customers.
So how do you measure qualityand speed over in that market?
(28:15):
And the other thing that I, atleast I've been in the last
year, I've been kind of tryingto, you know, demystify for them
is, listen, we used to think interms of employer driven market
and candidate driven market.
Those are, those are no longer,those no longer exist in my
opinion.
It's just a candidate drivenmarket.
Whether or not we're in, whetheror not we're in an up economy or
(28:38):
down economy or whatevereconomy, it's a candidate driven
market, proceed
Terry Terhark (28:43):
as such.
I love it.
And if all companies kind of,you know, thought that way and
acted that way, uh, then wewould achieve kind of the holy
grail.
William Tincup (28:53):
Job's Mike walks off stage.
Thank you so much for carvingout a time for the audience,
Terry.
I appreciate
Terry Terhark (28:58):
you.
Thank you so much, William.
Really appreciate theopportunity.
William Tincup (29:02):
Absolutely.
And thanks for everyonelistening until next time.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is William
Tincup, and you're listening tothe Recruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have Terry on fromEmploy.
We'll be talking about the 2023Recruiter Nation Report
findings.
So basically, I want to getTerry's take on, uh, the
recruiter, the report itself.
And they, you know, they doresearch.
They've done research like thisfor a long time.
(00:53):
But it's nice to get aprofessional, someone, Terry's
been in the industry for a longtime, but it's gonna be really
wonderful just kind of get histake on what he sees in the
research or the findings.
So, Terry, would you do us afavor and, uh, introduce
yourself?
Absolutely.
William,
Terry Terhark (01:09):
thanks so much.
Uh, again, my name is TerryTarhark.
I've been in recruiting forabout 30 years and certainly
have watched it change over theyears.
Excited to share my perspectivesof the Recruiter Nation report
and what we see occurring withinrecruiting and talent
acquisition today.
So, uh, excited to, to provideour perspectives.
William Tincup (01:30):
Sure.
So, all right, so let's juststart with the, the basics here.
You've, you've been in theindustry for a long time.
You've seen these, you'veprobably, you've created, your
teams have created research.
So, uh, so you've, you've,you've, you've got the full
spectrum.
What did, uh, what came out whenyou looked at the results the
first time, probably in a draftmode, what stuck out to you?
Terry Terhark (01:53):
Yeah, good, good question.
And you're right, you know, overthe years, we've certainly seen,
um, you know, considerableresearch.
The Recruiter Nation report is,you know, kind of our premier
effort as it relates toresearch.
And, uh, it's something that notonly I, but our organization
plays, pays considerableattention to, um, you know, I
(02:16):
think that we saw a movement interms of relief of pressure
within the labor markets.
Thank you.
As we all know, you know, 21 and22 were, you know, probably a
run up, uh, in, in terms of, uh,the vibrancy of the labor
markets, certainly than thatI've seen over the last 30
years, uh, and we, and we sawsome of that pressure kind of
(02:37):
come back and there was a coupleof, you know, kind of key
statistics, uh, such as numberof applications per posting, um,
you know, just the, the, Uh, youknow, stress and, and, and
relief that recruiters have seenover the past year.
Uh, still tremendous pressure incertain segments, which is no
(02:58):
surprise.
Um, but, you know, I, I thinkjust, you know, if we look at
year over year, kind of ageneral decline of the intense
pressure that we saw in 21 and22.
Right.
William Tincup (03:11):
You know, you've, I was about to, I was
about to say, you, you've seen alot of markets kind of come and
go.
How do you.
I mean, as I get asked thequestion, I'm sure you get asked
the same question.
How do you explain this talentmarket?
You know, cause as it relates tolike, normally when we have some
type of, uh, you know, we havesome type of, let's say a
recession, normally there's atalent surplus, right?
(03:36):
So they kind of go hand in hand.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you know, the economy bad,talent, you know, easier to get,
easier to find, cheaper, youknow, all the, all the things
that some, some folks love.
This one's been just strangefrom the get go, like, are we in
a recession?
Are we not in a recession?
Are we in a talent shortage?
Are we not in a talent shortage?
Like, are the candidatesdifferent?
(03:59):
So when you get asked thatquestion, which seems like a
benign, easy question to answer,and I think in the years past it
probably was for us, how do youanswer, how do you respond to
people?
Terry Terhark (04:08):
Yeah, great question, William, and it's one
that, you know, I've spent a lotof time trying to figure out
these labor markets.
Um, and, and I've, you know,told our clients and, and
whomever I, you know, can yellto that this is the most awkward
labor market that I've everseen, certainly in, in my
experience.
And, you know, a couple things.
(04:29):
That kind of stand out to meand, you know, certainly
interrupt me if I go too long onthis, but the number of open
jobs is kind of a criticalelement.
You know, we saw open jobs go up5.
8 percent last month.
We're at 9.
6 million open jobs.
As you know, we were closer to12 million for about a year.
So the number of open jobs is,is critical in this equation
(04:52):
around the, around the labormarkets.
Even with the Fed, uh, you know,raising interest rates,
theoretically that should bringdown the number of open jobs,
but it hasn't.
And if we look at pre pandemic,the The high point of open jobs
was around 6.
4 million.
So, you know, kind of postpandemic being at, you know, 9
million, 9.
6 million, up to 12 million,almost double of what we've
(05:15):
seen.
So the big thing for me, atleast the aha for me, has been
the labor force participationrate.
So, you know, if we look at, youknow, the last 10 years or so of
labor force participation,meaning who, those who are
available are actively working,that percentage has come down
from September 19 of 63.
(05:36):
3 percent To September of 23 of62.
6 percent doesn't seem like abig number, but you're talking,
you know, seven tenths of apercentage point on what 300
million population, you know,probably 200 million people that
are available to work.
So you've got a couple millionpeople less in the labor
(05:56):
markets, and that is what iscontinuing the pressure, in my
opinion.
The other thing that I've seen,and definitely over the last
year, William, is a dichotomy ofwhere the pressure is located.
Frontline hiring, meaning, youknow, hospitality, retail,
warehouse, etc., manufacturing,that, that is as pressured as it
(06:18):
was 12 months ago.
Has, has really not changed alot.
Companies are still very muchstruggling with trying to get
the right talent into theirorganization and not seeing, The
level of applicants or thequality of applicants they
desire.
Now, we have seen wholesalechanges in technology and life
sciences and other industries.
(06:39):
And I would say across theboard, there's been a malaise of
disempowering.
So companies have been supertight.
on backfilling or opening newrequisitions for exempt.
So you have all these, you know,uh, uh, you know, people that
are in the labor market that arelooking for jobs that are
exempt, uh, but you have all ofthese jobs, uh, in, in
(07:01):
frontline, and there's amismatch of where people are
unemployed.
I think the number of unemployedpeople right now is 3.
8%.
We're at 6.
4 million people.
If you just use that numberagainst 9.
6 million jobs, not enoughpeople to fill the jobs, but
it's complicated when there'sdefinitely a mismatch of people
(07:25):
that are unemployed versus The,the jobs that are out there.
Does that make sense?
Oh, a hundred
William Tincup (07:30):
percent.
And I wonder how candid behaviorplays into this because, uh,
when, when I look at the highvolume or hourly market,
however, however you want tophrase it, it's, I also look at,
you know, Gen Z and somemillennials, they, they just, if
the job doesn't fit them to findthat as you wish, they just
(07:51):
rather not work or.
I think probably moreappropriate, they'll work
differently.
So instead of taking the job atTaco Bell, for instance, they
won't take the job or they tookthe job.
They, they went there for acouple of days, tried it, didn't
work out, don't, they didn'tlike it.
And then they just, the, the,uh, um, now they're an Uber
(08:12):
driver.
So they're creating the samerevenue for themselves as they
would have through kind of atraditional fast food job, but
they're doing it in a differentway.
So it's like this collision ofthe gig economy and hourly and
also candidate behavior justbeing like you and I grew up.
You, you got a job, you stayedthere,
Terry Terhark (08:33):
you
William Tincup (08:35):
fought through whatever, whatever stuff that
was there.
And you're just like, eh,there's not a, the grass isn't
greener on the other side of thefence.
Like, yeah, you just took a job.
You went there and it's, that'sit.
It's no big deal.
Uh, there, what I'm, I'menvious, I've said this before,
I'm envious of Gen Z in thesense that they're just
unwilling to put up with whatyou and I would have just put up
(08:57):
with normally.
So how do you, how do you see
Terry Terhark (09:00):
that playing out?
No, I couldn't agree more,William.
I think that the, you know, kindof the gig economy and the
ability for people to managetheir own schedule, kind of, you
know, somewhat manage the levelof income that they're able to
generate week over week, youknow, has changed this, you
know, we have seen over the lastcouple of years, the level of
ghosting and whether that'sghosting of interviews or
(09:22):
ghosting of actually showing upfor work.
I mean, It's, it's, it's not asbad as it was a year ago, but it
is still very prevalent.
I mean, you know, people that goto work, to your point, you
know, they'll, they'll work forhalf a day and they'll leave at
lunchtime.
And they're just like, no, I'vegot to do this.
There's too many jobs out therethat I can go find.
And I think that, that supply,you know, especially for
(09:43):
frontline workers is, is, is soample that, you know, they, they
don't I have to do the thingsthat maybe you and I, uh, you
know, did, did in the past.
I've heard it,
William Tincup (09:54):
I've heard it said like this, like we probably
had a point in our lives, wethought of early stage talent as
just a faucet.
Like we just turn on the faucetand people show up and then, and
then we just kind of turn offthe faucet when we don't need
them.
And now candidates are viewingcompanies.
Like that.
They just turn on the faucetwhen they want a job or a gig or
(10:15):
whatever, and then they justturn off the faucet.
So it's, it's, it's a weird wayof looking at how things have
been commoditized.
We've probably historicallyeither underestimated or
Undervalued or maybe evencommoditized, the early stage
talent, now they're doing thesame thing to
Terry Terhark (10:33):
corporations.
There's no question that jobsare commoditized, particularly
at the frontline level.
One of the things that I wantedto talk about is, you know,
candidate behavior.
So 21 and 22, you know, mostcompanies who have had that
mentality, like you mentioned,If I can just turn on the
faucet, I can get, you know, anice supply of candidates very
(10:55):
easily.
I'm a good payer.
I'm a good brand, etc.
You know, really had to changethe way that they approached it
because of all the pressure thatwe saw in 21 and 22.
Now that we've seen thatpressure back off a little bit,
I've heard from so manycompanies that, all right, we're
back to an employer market.
I think it's a little bit offool's gold, William, and it's
(11:16):
much that, you know, all thenumbers that I've seen.
is that we are going to see thelabor market challenges through
2030, uh, and largely because ofthe labor force participation
rate that we won't see it startto come back up until around
that time.
So I just urge companies to, youknow, not take away the things
that they did to improvecandidate experience, to improve
(11:39):
the speed of their, of theirprocess.
And, you know, even if I look atsome of the results of the
questions in the RecruiterNation survey, Absolutely kind
of reiterated or emphasized thatcandidate experience is still
kind of the, uh, the holy grailof, of what we seek for in, in
recruiting and talentacquisition.
(11:59):
Let me get your
William Tincup (11:59):
take on this that, uh, I was talking to
somebody that's in the hourlymarket the other day and their
bit was, Hey, listen, I, I, uh,you know, I'll apply to several
jobs.
And, uh, it's, it's usually thepeople that get back to me with
a quality response, the fastestthat I go with.
No question.
And I was like, explain that,like, you know, take me into
(12:20):
that world because I'munfamiliar with this.
He's just like, you know what?
It kind of shows, it kind ofshows me how, not just how they
treat talent, but how they're,they're modernized.
Like it's, it's really, it wasfascinating because I was like,
well, okay, explain it.
He's like, if they can explain,if they can get back to me and
it happens fast.
(12:42):
And it happens in a quality way,so it's personalized, but it's,
you know, personalized in such away, like, hey, thank you for
your resume, or thank you foruploading your thing, you know,
this, that, and the other,here's what we'd like to do,
blah, blah, blah, blah, takethem to the next step.
He, it, it, what he was sayingto me is, he's like, it's, it's
a tell.
Into the organization, like, arethey actually modern or not?
(13:04):
If they're not, it takes themthree weeks to respond.
And it's like, I'd never, I'dnever, I mean, corporate like
corporate candidates.
Yeah, of course they George,they, they judge, they judge
companies, especially peoplethat work in HR and talent.
We judge that stuff becausethat's what we do.
So of course we're judging, butI've never heard a.
(13:25):
An hourly candidate, this is a24 year old, I've never heard of
an hourly candidate judging acompany based on speed and
quality.
Terry Terhark (13:34):
I, um, yeah, I, yeah, appreciate you sharing
that story.
It's interesting.
But I would, um, I mean thatkind of aligns with everything
that, that I've heard and thatwe're seeing and what we're
telling our client.
So, you know, we still tell, youknow, customers today at speed
of process, meaning yourrecruiting process.
(13:54):
is the ultimate leveragingpoint.
If you're not speedy, you willlose candidates.
The other thing that I think isreally important here, when you
talk about this 24 year oldWilliam, is that everything we
do in, in our life today isserved up to us immediately.
You know, if we have a question,if we want to order food or
(14:15):
whatever it may be, we getinstant gratification from that.
Expectation of the talent,especially the younger talent is
the exact same thing.
If you do not get back to them,then you will lose them.
William Tincup (14:30):
Yeah.
It's funny because I've toldpeople from the stage like, Hey,
listen, I'll hold up my phoneand I'll go, listen, if I text
someone, I expect that they'regoing to text me
Terry Terhark (14:38):
back.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
William Tincup (14:41):
If I Facebook message or, you know, WhatsApp
or whatever, if I send you amessage, I expect something
back.
You know, even if it's, Hey,can't respond to this until
Tuesday.
That's cool.
But like, like bringing thatover to the recruiting market
and to recruiters and maybe evenhiring managers in particular
is, has been historically achallenge.
(15:02):
For
Terry Terhark (15:02):
sure.
I think that, you know, thenumber one complaint of
candidates today is not hearinganything.
And you know, you've, uh, maybenot been around as much as I
have, but that's been the numberone complaint for 20 years.
You know, hundred percent.
You know, candidates neverhearing back on, on the
disposition of, you know, theirapplication.
You know, I think.
(15:22):
You know, we live in a worldwhere technology does enable us
to do the things that candidateswant and whether, and, you know,
I tell this to our recruitersall, all the time, you know,
when you're dealing with ahiring manager, even if you
don't have an update, call themand tell them you don't have an
update.
Same thing for candidates.
(15:43):
Even if you don't have a kind ofa final disposition, just
keeping in touch with them.
And we have the tools to do itand whether it's text or email
or.
You know, something from, uh,our ATS to be able to update
them.
We can clearly do it.
Um, you know, I would urgecompanies to continue to improve
upon how quickly they're gettingback to these candidates.
(16:05):
That will save them so muchheadache down the road.
So,
William Tincup (16:08):
how do you, you know, you've dealt with
recruiters for, uh, forever.
So how do you take researchthat's like this?
So y'all built great research,some action items, here's what's
going on, which everyone wantsto know, like what's around the
corner.
So I think y'all have done agreat job, uh, with, uh, with
the, with the report.
I can hear, you know, it's amirror of sorts.
Here's what we've, here's whatwe've been asked.
(16:30):
Here's what's going to come backas answered.
Here's some things that youshould do.
How do you get recruiters toaction those things?
Like, like sometimes thishappens with research.
Research will tell you all theanswers, but for whatever
reason, I mean, recruiters arebusy.
Hiring managers, you know, it'snot their job.
They're busy as well.
So how do we get it in the, notjust in the hands, but how do we
(16:51):
get them to action the thingsthat we learn?
Terry Terhark (16:55):
So, yeah, it's a deep question, William.
Yeah, I don't think there's anykind of one specific thing that
you need to do, but I'vecertainly found in dealing with
recruiters, you know, not onlyrecently, but over the years,
just that kind of reinforcingthe data that we're seeing.
And from the research andproviding them, you know, kind
(17:16):
of the answer around that, youknow, the number one challenge
that recruiters face based uponthe Recruiter Nation survey, not
enough qualified candidates,number two, number two is
competition, um, and, and whatI've kind of read into that is
that, you know, the competition,you know, has continued to raise
wages and that's why we've seeninflation over the last couple
(17:37):
of years.
And, you know, it really is kindof sitting with the recruiter.
And providing them the resourcesto allow them to make good
decisions.
So we, the one thing that Iwould say is different today
than, you know, what has beenover the last several years is
the amount of data that we areproviding to recruiters and
whether it's compensation data,whether it's supply and demand
(17:59):
data.
You know, whether it's specificinformation around that
particular position and thechallenges of recruiting, but
really informing their hiringmanagers of what we're seeing in
the market and what is realisticand what is not realistic.
Like, we have the tools todayand it's always the recruiter's,
you know, kind of first responseto a hiring manager.
Like, you know, tight market,you know, not enough candidates,
(18:21):
but when you actually come tothe hiring manager with.
you know, real data that showsthem what they're requesting and
what's available to them.
You start to have a little bit,you know, kind of more informed
conversation.
So, you know, I guess myresponse would be, you know, how
do we equip the recruiters withthe data that allows them to do
their job, and then continuingto reinforce what are the
(18:46):
solutions that we're bringing tobear.
In a tight market.
So, uh, you know, takingadvantage of the technology,
taking advantage of the datathat we now have access to that
we didn't before.
So a
William Tincup (19:01):
couple of questions that come from that.
One is your take on.
Hiring manager training.
So one of the, you know, you gotall kinds of different takes on
this.
Uh, hiring managers, uh, shouldbe the, we should take
recruiters out of it and justwork with hiring managers cause
they know the job.
Okay.
That's pretty extreme.
Uh, you should do more trainingwith hiring managers because it
(19:21):
isn't their job.
They don't know necessarily howto recruit.
They know the job.
They know the company, they knowthe team, they know the
projects, whatever, but theydon't know how to actually
recruit and ask good interviewquestions, this, that, and the
other.
So like, what's your take?
What do you see, especially inthis market?
What should we do with hiringmanagers?
What's your, I know it'ssituational based on a company
(19:42):
or industry and stuff like that,but in general, what advice
would you give to folks?
Terry Terhark (19:46):
Yeah, I mean, I would certainly say, William,
over the past couple of yearsthat the amount of hiring
manager training, you know, hasbeen Less than, than what it
should be.
Um, you know, where I have seenthat, where companies do invest
in hiring manager training,educating them about the market,
educating them about how to sella position, you know, how to
(20:07):
recruit, you know, and I'm onewho believes very strongly that
the role of the recruiter willnever go away.
Um, you know, we hear all aboutai, it's gonna replace the role
of the recruiter.
And, you know, I've alwaysbelieved and still believe today
that.
Recruiting is a blend of art andscience, and, you know, I've
always been fascinated by howmost hiring managers feel
(20:30):
they're experts in recruiting,even though they may only do it
once or twice a year, you know,I think that it is absolutely
the role of the recruiter toconstantly train the manager
around what they're seeing inthe market and what the
realities are of the position isthat they're looking for.
You know, I have seen progressin interview training where, you
(20:53):
know, a good portion of thatinterview training is around the
market conditions.
You know, most hiring managersdon't understand the need for
speed.
You know, it's still fascinatedby companies that'll do, they'll
interview 12 candidates andthey'll, they'll interview them
with 12 hiring managers in acompany.
And it just ultimately kills theprocess.
Now, I do think we've seenreally positive movement on that
(21:15):
in the last couple of years,just because the market
necessitated that, thatcompanies, you know, candidates
were getting multiple offersand, you know, they could sign
on bonuses, cars, that's crazy.
Yeah.
Like, you know, uh, uh, flexiblework arrangements, et cetera.
So companies were kind of forcedjust out of necessity to get
(21:35):
more competitive in therecruitment process.
But as soon as, you know,there's a little bit of a
slowdown, and this isparticularly on the exempt side
or professional hiring, Youknow, companies go back to
behavior that, um, you know,isn't suited for what I consider
to be ideal recruitment.
William Tincup (21:53):
So a couple, a couple of things.
One of the things that we spedpast and, uh, I know you want to
get to is automation.
So things like with the toolsthat are, you said data earlier,
like we're sitting on all thiswonderful data that will make
recruiters smarter about all thethings they want to do, but
we're also sitting on all kindsof automation that can take some
(22:13):
of those lower value tasks outof their way.
And let them focus on the realhuman part of recruiting.
So they can actually be, I mean,again, you've dealt with a lot
of recruiters through the years,you know, a great recruiter and
a great recruiter is just, youknow, a human being that just
loves having that conversation,loves kind of being a candidate
(22:34):
advocate, you know, like they'rejust good at it.
Like you just know that they'regood at what they do because
they love it so much.
So, but they've been mired,especially in the last decade or
so with a bunch of.
Task, I'd say, even things thattake away from their schedule,
uh, and their time's been suckedaway.
So they get less and less timeto actually talk to candidates.
(22:56):
So what do you see there?
What do you see kind of, how doyou see that playing out with
more and more automation?
Again, taking the lower value,I'm not talking about taking the
higher value stuff, but thelower value stuff kind of out of
their hands, if you will.
It's being done.
They don't necessarily need todo it.
Terry Terhark (23:13):
Yeah, I mean, I could talk on this for days,
William.
You've kind of opened up one ofmy passions and, you know, I, I
talk to recruiters every singleday and, you know, um, what they
like, what they don't like, whatthey're seeing and all that, you
know, I, I, You know, very muchdetermined that a good recruiter
always has a level of empathy.
(23:35):
And, you know, part of, youknow, their drive is to be able
to put the right person in theright job.
And if that's convincing thehiring manager, convincing the
candidate to take a look, youknow, you know, being able to be
that intermediary who actuallyfacilitates that process, that
is what will never be replacedby machine learning or
automation.
(23:56):
You know, I, I And, you know,having access to, you know, all
the clients that we do, youknow, there are great
technologies out there, andthere's new technologies that
are coming out every day, andwhether that's around texting,
whether it's around automatedinterview scheduling, whether
it's around, um, rankingcandidates, you know, all those
(24:16):
types of things, I think we'restill very, very early on how
automation and technologyimpacts the role of the
recruiter.
Um, you know, we still see mostrecruiters who are handling
administrative tasks, um, but weare moving in the right
direction.
Um, I don't think mostrecruiters fear their job that's
going to be replaced by acomputer.
(24:38):
Um, but, you know, I do thinkthere's so much more room for us
to be able to improve kind ofthe experience of the recruiter
as it relates to how they'reinteracting with the hiring
manager.
Yes, we've made really goodprogress on texting.
You know, it's probably the.
One of the single things that Isee as, as benefiting the
recruiter being able to accessthat candidate immediately, get,
(25:00):
you know, kind of instantfeedback, whether that's with
the manager or with, with thecandidate.
Uh, we have, we are seeing somereally good interview scheduling
tools.
We're seeing some very goodassessments.
Um, and, but there's so muchmore that we can do to, you
know, be able to make it moreefficient or more productive for
the recruiter and for theorganization.
William Tincup (25:21):
Well, you, you mentioned scheduling.
Uh, you and I grew up in a worldwhere there was a person, or
Sally or whatever, that wastheir job.
They worked with all thesemultiple schedules, hiring
manager, the team, therecruiter, sourcer, the
candidate, you know, all these,all these different talent.
And it was through email orcalling or all this kind of, now
(25:43):
you just got a bot, goes andlooks at everybody's calendar,
comes back and says, okay,Tuesday, three o'clock, here's a
Zoom link.
Terry Terhark (25:50):
Although you, you probably will not be surprised
at how many people are stilldoing manual interview
scheduling.
It is very, very large.
Oh, my God.
You just, you just broke me.
I'm like, no,
William Tincup (26:05):
surely, surely everyone has moved to a bot.
Oh, my God.
Terry Terhark (26:08):
I guess it's in single digits.
I guess it's in single digits.
But moving in the rightdirection,
William Tincup (26:14):
for sure.
Alright, your last thing, yourfavorite advice, and this is
because you deal with the Csuite as they look at talent.
So because, you know, you, youcan talk to all day long to
recruiters and hiring managersand all the folks that work in
talent, HR, et cetera, but yourfavorite advice when you're
alone with a CEO, president,someone on the board, et cetera,
(26:34):
and you're trying to get them tothink about talent differently.
What do you, what's, what's someof the things that you say to
those folks?
Terry Terhark (26:42):
Yeah, again, it's hard to kind of single it down
to one, one point, William, but,you know, if, if there was
anything that I would tell kindof a C suite is that pay
attention to the speed of yourprocess, because that will
dictate or tell you, uh, youknow, the quality of your
process.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, so the outcomes, you know,are, in my opinion, are driven
(27:04):
largely, you know, by howefficient or how speedy you are
in your process.
You know, I.
I do counsel C suites on aregular basis and I tell them do
not be fooled by this kind ofeconomic, uh, situation we've
been in for the last year.
You know, we are not, we are notout of the woods in terms of the
(27:26):
pressure on the labor markets.
Finding the right talent isgoing to be as difficult as it
has been, uh, in the next fiveyears.
Keep the, keep the foot on theaccelerator.
It's so common for companies toreduce their recruiting team or
reduce their investments inrecruiting.
When they see a generalslowdown, I get it.
I've managed budgets, but
William Tincup (27:46):
this is the time to actually double down and get
your process
Terry Terhark (27:49):
right.
100%.
William Tincup (27:52):
Yeah.
100%.
I'd say the same thing.
I, it's a mixture of quality andspeed and I say, but usually I
go to look at the rest of theirbusiness.
They're in a, you know, consumermarket.
I'm like, okay, so listen,you're, you, this is how you
treat your customers, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Your employees are just likeyour customers.
Your candidates are just likeyour customers.
So how do you measure qualityand speed over in that market?
(28:15):
And the other thing that I, atleast I've been in the last
year, I've been kind of tryingto, you know, demystify for them
is, listen, we used to think interms of employer driven market
and candidate driven market.
Those are, those are no longer,those no longer exist in my
opinion.
It's just a candidate drivenmarket.
Whether or not we're in, whetheror not we're in an up economy or
(28:38):
down economy or whatevereconomy, it's a candidate driven
market, proceed
Terry Terhark (28:43):
as such.
I love it.
And if all companies kind of,you know, thought that way and
acted that way, uh, then wewould achieve kind of the holy
grail.
William Tincup (28:53):
Job's Mike walks off stage.
Thank you so much for carvingout a time for the audience,
Terry.
I appreciate
Terry Terhark (28:58):
you.
Thank you so much, William.
Really appreciate theopportunity.
William Tincup (29:02):
Absolutely.
And thanks for everyonelistening until next time.
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