December 19, 2023 • 28 mins
How can managers harness the power of HR technology to enhance their teams' performance and productivity? That's the crux of a stimulating chat between William Tincup and Melanie Lougee, the Head of Future HR Products at ServiceNow. Melanie is a prominent figure in the HR technology sector, and has some profound insights on how managers can efficiently utilize HR technology to foster productivity and elevate employee experiences.
Lougee strongly advocates for integrating managers into the design and selection methodology of HR tools. This involvement guarantees a user-centric approach that perfectly meets their needs and hurdles. The result is an empowered managerial force armed with technology to streamline workflows, minimize manual processes, and cultivate a seamless employee experience. Lougee's expertise equips managers with the know-how and strategies vital in making the most of HR tech.
This informative discussion provides the key to seamlessly integrating HR tech into your managerial practices, leading to a positive, efficient, and highly productive work environment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William Tincup (00:32):
This is William Tincup.
You're listening to theRecruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have Melanie on fromServiceNow.
And our topic today is Manager'sGuide to Leverage HR Tech Now
and Evolving for the Future.
So let's do some introductions.
Uh, Melanie, would you do us afavor and introduce both
yourself and what you do atServiceNow?
Maybe even an overview of whatServiceNow does.
Melanie Lougee (00:54):
Sure, absolutely.
So, um, so ServiceNow wasfounded in 2004, uh, by Fred
Luddy, and he had a vision ofemployees being able to, uh,
seamlessly route work all overthe enterprise, um, as opposed
to what was going on in themarket at that time, which was A
lot of siloed, uh, systems and,and broken processes.
(01:17):
So that was his initial visionand he started with IT
workflows, but then rapidlyexpanded into employee workflows
and customer workflows andfinance workflows.
So we've grown, um, quite a bit.
Uh, so today we are at, uh, 7,400 customers, um, customers
like.
Coca Cola, um, Deloitte, WNBA,um, so a lot of large, uh,
(01:43):
enterprise customers and, uh, myrole, uh, within ServiceNow, um,
is, uh, I head, uh, future HRproducts, uh, for, for
ServiceNow.
So I work within a very coolteam called NALAX, um, and we
are the incubators ofServiceNow.
So we develop the, uh, stealth,uh, projects before they're
(02:03):
ready to graduate and gogenerally available.
Oh, I
William Tincup (02:07):
love that.
This is the Skunk Works team.
You get, you get to really, inthe future of work and kind of
what's next, what's around thecorner, et cetera.
Uh, I love that.
How do y'all, how do y'all,first of all, before we get to
the topics, which is fascinatingas to what you do, how do you,
how do you think about, I mean,when you go to a, uh, a
technology conference, you'relooking How, how are you and the
(02:30):
team, how are y'all lookingabout what's, you know, what's
next?
How do y'all kind of coming upwith that, that list?
Melanie Lougee (02:36):
Sure.
Um, so it's always a balance,um, with product leadership
between, you know, what are youtrying to get out of any
release?
Um, is it a competitiveadvantage?
Is it innovation?
Is it customer?
You know, that type of thing,but, but for me, I like seeing
what's out there, but I get myinspiration and I read my tea
leaves.
Uh, not from reading analystreports, not from walking around
(03:00):
the floor at conferences.
I read the news and I read a lotof it.
So, um, I get it much more fromthe Wall Street Journal or I get
it from the BBC or Al Jazeera orHarvard Business Review.
Um, I like looking at what'shappening in the world, um, and
then kind of pulling the threadand say, well, what is that
going to mean?
And then what will that mean?
(03:20):
And then what will that mean toemployers and employees?
I like
William Tincup (03:24):
that.
I like that.
It's more grounded.
Yeah.
It's, it's like, oh, go ahead
Melanie Lougee (03:28):
and I'll finish with that.
Yeah.
I was going to say, like, I, I,you know, I, I look at like very
much what you just said.
So, um, you know, if HR techtoday is what's today, what's
the future?
Um, I think to figure out thefuture, you have to look outside
of today.
William Tincup (03:41):
Yeah.
And outside of the echo chamber,which I think is, Uh, really,
like you said, analysts andwalking the floor.
That's great.
That's all cool.
But a lot of those folks areusing the same language and, uh,
and copying each other.
And so that's, again, there's noharm.
There's nothing wrong with that,but some of it might be far too
far away from like the realitythat, that, that folks are
(04:04):
feeling in HR, recruiting, etcetera.
So I like that.
How do you Before, again, I'm socurious about this.
How do you cap the, the, thefuture in terms of not going out
too
Melanie Lougee (04:16):
far?
Right, um, that's a goodquestion.
So, I cap the future within 7 to10 years.
Um, I think Got it, got it.
Um, you know, considering howfast the world is changing, you
know, predicting anything hasgotten, um, extremely difficult.
So I look at trends and try tobe like, well, we better plan
(04:38):
for agility and flexibility.
There you go.
William Tincup (04:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I tell people whenever I'mtalking about that type of
stuff, I go, I'm like, yeah, notflying car stuff.
We'll get there.
However, let's just look at thisthing.
And it's a little bit moreimmediate than what you're
dealing with, which I like.
This, the topic that we, that wehave in front of our managers
guide to leverage the HR technow, so let's, let's parse that
between leveraging the HR technow.
(05:03):
And then let's talk about howthey, and we evolve in the
future and how we leverage HRtech in the future.
So how do they, how do you seeit right now?
In terms of them leveraging thetech that they either have now
or they're about to buy.
Melanie Lougee (05:18):
Sure.
Um, so I'll even, I'll even takeit just a half step backwards
and say, how did, how did we gethere, if that's okay?
Sure.
So I think, you know, we wentthrough this era of, um, of HR,
you know, wanting to be able toenable managers so that they
could.
outsourced some of the tasksthat they had to managers and
then somehow HR was supposed toget much more strategic.
(05:40):
Um, and then there was this hugeproliferation of point solutions
that happened and a lot of thatwent to managers.
So over time, managers ended upwith 20 something different apps
that they were using as part oftheir management duties.
Everything from, uh, you know,managing goals to approving
expenses to, um, you know,setting, uh, you know, doing
(06:00):
performance reviews orrecruiting.
Like, every single thing, youknow, had different apps.
And managers really didn't askfor any of it, you know, to
begin with.
Nobody asked the manager whatwas going to be helpful, um, for
them.
And so, you know, what hashappened is that managers have
now ended up with, you know, 20plus different apps that they're
trying to reconcile and theyhave different workflows and
(06:20):
different approvals and it'sfrustrating.
So I think right now we'reseeing a lot of, of, uh,
customers looking for solutionsfor managers that are beginning
to bring it all together.
So at least, you know, give themone place to go, one common
approval process, fewer.
Uh, different experiences thatthey have to, to hop through.
So we're seeing a lot ofinterest there right now as in
(06:42):
consolidation and at least beingable to have an entry point
that's common.
William Tincup (06:47):
Yeah, that tracks for me because of the
spring, I went to five techconferences and kind of a theme
that developed over thoseconferences was, uh, when I
talked to practitioners, it was,uh, William, I just want less
tech.
And, and I'm like, you're at atechnology conference, they hire
me, you're at, you're at, you'reat Unleash or Transform or
(07:07):
whatever the, you know, whateverthe conference was.
I'm like, you're at thisconference.
Like, why are you here?
If you want less tech.
And what, what I kind of gotinto in terms of kind of digging
into that and unpacking it, it'slike, they don't want less tech.
They want less entry points.
They actually want more tech ormore, you know, more from their
tech in some cases, but theywant less entry points for their
(07:30):
managers, for themselves, etcetera.
So it was fascinating.
So that tracks for me.
Melanie Lougee (07:36):
Yeah.
Right.
One ring to rule them
William Tincup (07:38):
all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the advice.
Okay.
So we got here now leveragingthat the, the, the tech.
Uh, stack that they have, if youwill, one of it's kind of
auditing, understanding whatyou've, what you've purchased,
uh, and understanding,especially if you're new, if
you're CHRO and you're new tothe organization, uh, having
(08:01):
doing that audit and findingout, okay, well, we're paying
for this, we're paying for that,et cetera.
And then.
You know, you're finding outuser adoption, like, okay, what,
are we using it or is iteffective?
Uh, and then connecting thosekind of disparate systems to, to
one another.
I know that.
I know that's obviously that'ssomething that's important to
(08:22):
y'all.
Yeah.
Um, how do you, I mean, I thinkthe, the, the audience gets it
because they're feeling thepain.
So, so if they get it and, andit's a little bit easier now
than it was 10, 15, 20 years agowhen consultants had to actually
do all of this integration typework, um, what's the barrier?
And, uh, right now in terms ofleveraging the technology that
(08:45):
they've purchased, what do yousee as kind of common barriers
that you have to kind of coachor your team has to coach, uh,
practitioners
Melanie Lougee (08:54):
through?
Sure.
Um, so I think there's, there'sa couple of different things.
So first I would say is that,um, decisions about HR tech or
tech that managers are going tobe using.
is you really need to consultthe manager.
So I think a lot of the adoptionproblems that we've seen have
really stemmed from HR buildingtools without asking a manager.
(09:14):
What they need.
Um, so HR, building tools for HRthat then missed the, the user
on, on the other end.
So I think that's something thathas to change is we really have
to design around the users, um,you know, for sure.
And if it's something that isactually going to be meaningful
for them and help them withtheir job and be useful and not
be difficult to find orcompletely detached from
(09:36):
anything else, um, You know,then I think we will see much
better adoption, um, especiallyif it's harmonized with one
entry point, like we wereseeing.
And I think we saw a big pushfor that happen, you know, when
everybody went home for thepandemic, right?
They went home and they wenthome from their fancy buildings
that cost, you know, campusesthat, you know, billions of
dollars on these campuses.
And they went home and realizedthat they hadn't updated their
(09:59):
intranet.
15 years and everything's brokenand nobody could get a hold of
anything.
So I think that's something elsetoo, is this, the role of the
personalization of, you know, ifI log into, um, work and get to
the intranet, it should knowthat, you know, I'm a certain
level and I'm in this locationand I have this role and these
are the things that I'm doing,like it should know me and it
should know who I am and supportme as, as a manager, I shouldn't
(10:22):
have to go to some static placeand look around for things and,
you know, not have search thatworks and.
You know, those types of things.
And I think that we're therenow.
I think that's about where weare today is companies are
adopting that type of technologyright now to be able to
simplify.
And in some ways they're,they're putting in layers, you
know, like an employee center,like workflows, you know, like
(10:43):
these, this user experiencelayer.
To kind of wrap some of theseold systems and harmonize them.
That's one of the things thatServiceNow does very well.
And then when you provide thislayer, um, you know, then that
can actually make it easier tosort of replace things
underneath or consolidateunderneath without actually
disrupting the user experience.
William Tincup (11:03):
I love that.
And I love the, the concept of,you know, on two levels,
building products that aremanager centric.
Mm-Hmm.
uh, which is really what we cancontrol on the, on the
technology side, but also buyingMm-Hmm.
uh, and kind of refocusing thebuying process and making sure
managers are somehow involved ora part of, or help build the
(11:26):
short list or part of the demo.
Like again, I think you're, uh,I mean, I know you're right.
The, in terms of them, it'sdelivered to them.
It's bought for them, purchasedfor them, and then it's
delivered to them and theydidn't have a hand in, you know,
I think it's a famous quote of,uh, oh, I can't think, Bill
Parcells, if you, you know, ifyou, if you want me to, uh, to
(11:50):
cook that you should let me, youknow, get the groceries.
Exactly.
Kind of, kind of, kind of soundssimple, right?
But it, but it's with this ideaof like getting them involved in
the buy, how do we, how do weencourage?
Or how do you think that we best
Melanie Lougee (12:05):
encourage?
I think it needs to be anargument around, you know,
productivity and efficiency.
Um, and also just looking atthe, the, the lackluster
adoption records that are outthere.
Um, so you're making theseinvestments and nobody's using
them unless they absolutely haveto.
Um, you know, so I think thatthat's evidence that, that these
(12:25):
things need to be designed theother way.
And the other thing that I'llsay too is most managers don't
care if it's HR or IT or financeor, you know, whatever else, you
know, they, they still, youknow, they just want to be able
to do the things that they needto, to be able to develop their
teams and also do theadministrative end of managing
and facilitate thing.
And they want to be able to dothat, you know, easily without a
(12:47):
lot of silos and barriers.
I love
William Tincup (12:50):
that.
I love that.
And then again, getting, gettingthem involved, getting the
adoption up, I, I sometimeslaugh because you know, people
will ask me about ROI prettymuch every day.
And uh, and I'm like, well,here's the deal.
Every ROI business case that'sever been built in HR is flawed
math because in every case itassumes a hundred percent
(13:13):
adoption.
And in no case has there been ahundred percent adoption.
So, I don't care what technologywe're talking about or the
feature set that we're talkingabout or company or this, that,
and the other, it's never been ahundred percent adoption.
Never will be a hundred percentadoption.
So that's a little, it's alittle dark, but it's true.
There'll never be a hundredpercent adoption, but that means
(13:34):
you don't strive for that.
But the, the, the math.
Is based on 100 percentadoption.
There's no, it's not punished inany way.
So, uh, I kind of, I laugh aboutROI on, on some levels.
Um, I
Melanie Lougee (13:48):
had to build some ROI calculators in my life.
And I, I, you know, I don't, Idon't disagree.
William Tincup (13:55):
Take the math, punish it by 50%.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
No, you're good.
Yeah.
Now it's going to take you 10years to recoup.
Yeah.
That's fine.
That's it.
That tracks.
Uh, But, you know, it's harderto get past the CFO with a, with
a 10 year ROI.
Um, as we talk about, uh,evolving for the future, I want
(14:16):
to kind of bifurcate HR andhelping them kind of evolve,
like, okay, how do we, how doyou consume all this new
technology that's going to bethrown at you?
Sure.
And then also how HR tech, sohow HR tech is evolving as well.
Melanie Lougee (14:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely.
So I, I think.
Um, you know, we're, we're atthis, uh, this, this point in
time where employees are aboutto become extremely, uh, self
directed.
Um, they were already becomingself directed and, and, you
know, starting to drive theirown careers and things along
those lines.
But if you start thinking aboutthe possible combination of not
(14:52):
just AI, skills AI, that canhelp people find a role, find a
mentor, do things like that.
But if you then sort of layeron, you know, Gen AI, which will
allow people to teachthemselves, learn their own
courseware, you know, do all ofthese types of things, then, you
know, they can, you know, reskill themselves, you know, kind
of with or without a manager,with or without an employer, you
(15:15):
know, actually, you know, to acertain degree.
So at that point, You know,managers who are kind of old
school and are just kind oflooking at the output of the
team and maybe they're guilty ofdoing some talent hoarding, you
know, things along those lines,you know, they're really going
to have to change and becomemuch more of a talent agent, if
you will, much more of afacilitator of somebody's
(15:35):
career.
Um, to be able to help thatperson be happy at this
organization and feel likethey're a part of this
organization and help them movearound the organization because,
you know, being, you know,impeding their growth within,
within a company or notfacilitating that growth, um, I
think will very quickly, youknow, lead towards them, you
know, finding, finding their ownway to either a different
(15:55):
department or, or a differentcompany.
Um, because this, the level ofinformation that's available of
learning about, not justlearning about an opportunity,
but then being able to figureout how to get there.
which is a positive, but thatalso means that managers need to
rethink their relationship to anemployee.
Um, I also think that as thathappens, um, that managers will,
(16:17):
you know, not only will theyneed tools that will help, you
know, allow them to engagebetter with, with employees, you
know, as they, as they grow and,and Go along their path, but I
think they'll also start needingto be evaluated differently so
that as a manager, a largerportion portion of my evaluation
and compensation are going tobe, what opportunities do my
(16:37):
people have, right?
Are my people growing?
Are they thinking about careerpaths?
Do they want a career path?
Um, am I, um, giving themexposure?
Am I giving them opportunity andbeing looked at much more as a
talent agent, um, instead of atalent hoarder?
I
William Tincup (16:54):
love that.
What do you, I'm trying to thinkof the kind of the crossroads of
training and managers.
What's, what's theresponsibility of the
organization to train them tobecome those talent agents?
Melanie Lougee (17:07):
Well, I don't even know if I would call it a
responsibility of the place.
I would call it, um, you know, acritical thing to do, right?
You know, so I don't think it'sa nice to have.
I think it's like if you want tostay competitive, if you want to
continue to grow your business,you, you have to grow your
employees or you're going tohave to replace them.
(17:29):
Um, so I don't, I don't reallythink of it as a nice to have.
I think of it as a criticalthing to have, um, you know, to,
to be able to, to foster aculture, you know, for one where
growth is encouraged.
Um, you know, and then also tobe able to, to have there be
coaching and encouragement, um,and then also the tools.
Um, I think past tools have beenvery siloed, like all other
(17:51):
tools that have been created,very siloed, um, so that you've
got a learning system over here,and you've got some goals over
there, and none of them talk toeach other, and you've got, you
know, flat skills in fourdifferent systems, and they
don't harmonize or learn fromeach other.
Um, you know, and it's kind oflike, well, you know, even a
blind squirrel occasionally getsa nut, like, maybe you'll be
promoted someday and, you know,might take this course over here
(18:12):
and then not be connected toanything.
But, you know, where it's going,you know, if you think about
something like employee growthand development, which we, um,
you know, recently released.
Uh, it, it, it allows you toharmonize, again, you know,
like, what are my aspirations,and then be able to tie in other
things, like, do you have amentor, you know, is there some
coursework, is there someshadowing, is there an internal
(18:34):
gig, and be able to create muchmore of a plan, and be able to
do that collaboratively with acoach, or, you know, with your
manager.
Um, and I think that's wheremanagers can play to be able to,
um, you know, have theirrelationship with their
employees to be much moreproductive and, and stickier, if
you will, become much more ofthat talent agent.
(18:55):
So,
William Tincup (18:55):
when you look at talent agent, uh, and again,
managers becoming more liketalent agents, and you've got to
be great at your job.
So if you're, you know, anengineer and you're leading a
team towards whatever, uh, inthat you're leading them, you're
also a talent agent.
So at the same time that youlead a team and you do this, you
know, job, job that you have,you're also a talent agent is,
(19:19):
do you kind of, uh, already havekind of in your mind, kind of an
adoption curve of those of alltheir managers and how they're
kind of, you know, you've gotyour early adopters and the
people that are kind of doingthings on pace and then
laggards, if you will, to kindof keep it real simple.
Do you already kind of seeorganizationally that Some
managers are going to movefaster than others.
Melanie Lougee (19:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, and I think whatcompanies look for in a manager
will change too, right?
Um, you know, so if skills and,um, learning and things like
that can be.
self attainable, um, you know,and, and that kind of training
can happen largelyindependently, then a manager
(20:03):
really needs to be hired morefor their softer skills, for
their leadership qualities, fortheir, um, you know, ability to,
uh, motivate, um, and, and coachand manage, um, a team, you
know, more than, you know, dothey know how to do this
technical thing that's going tobe obsolete in three years.
William Tincup (20:24):
So I love that.
I love the, first of all, I lovepe people being hired more for
their soft skills managers.
Excuse me.
Mm-Hmm.
managers being hired more fortheir soft skills.
Is that a now today thing or?
Melanie Lougee (20:38):
I think we're seeing the beginnings of it.
Okay.
Um, I think we're seeing thebeginnings of it.
Um, and I also think that, youknow, companies, their interest
in things like soft skills andthinking about the future and
stuff like that, um, you know,goes up and down with.
What the, what the labor marketlooks like.
Right.
So, you know, we always seecompanies be much more
(20:59):
interested in things likediversity and inclusion.
Um, you know, when the jobmarket is tight and it's hard to
hire people.
Um, you know, so I think that,you know, some of this is, is
also along with that.
So, you know, companies that,uh, you know, are employers of
choice and they're getting 400resumes for, for a job.
Um, you know, they might have,um, you know, sort of a, a
(21:21):
different environment.
Yeah.
Desire to quickly weed through,find good candidates, develop
the right people, um, you know,that type of a thing than a
company that has a difficulttime attracting people to begin
with.
Right?
Um, you know, they, they mightbe interested in different parts
of the, the talent andleadership process.
William Tincup (21:40):
What do you, what do you see, uh, think of
the theme or, or trend right nowfor hiring for potentiality?
For
Melanie Lougee (21:48):
potentiality.
William Tincup (21:49):
Yeah.
Do you have a take on that?
Melanie Lougee (21:52):
I do have a take on that.
Like I'm pro hiring onpotentiality.
Although I know thatpotentiality it's, it is, it is
very, um, uh, it's a littlesquishy.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's squishy.
It exactly.
It's, it's hard to measure.
It's hard to prove.
You know, anything along thoselines, but I think it is
something that that potentiallyopens up opportunity, um, you
(22:13):
know, and I also think that, youknow, as we see, uh, especially
younger generation being alittle bit less interested in a
four year degree, being a littlebit more interested in managing
their career and going forcertificates that they can
update every few years.
Um, you know, I, I, I do thinkthat, um, you know, there,
there's going to come a timewhere, you know, maybe
(22:33):
somebody's SAT scores is goingto be what gets them into their
first employer.
Something like that, you know,maybe it's aptitude testing, um,
you know, right out of highschool instead of, you know, a
four year degree that, that mayor may not still be relevant,
um, you know, four yearsafterwards.
(22:54):
Yeah,
William Tincup (22:54):
it's almost like Moore's law as it applies to
skills and how fast thosethings.
We talk a lot about, especiallyin our market, we talk a lot
about upskilling, but we rarelytalk about how skills decay and,
and, you know, okay, you havethat degree from so and so and
that was 10 years ago.
Well, is that information or isthat those skills that you
(23:17):
attained, do you still havethose skills?
And so, you know, just as muchas we talk about the plus side
of adding new skills and all thecool things that go along with
that, the access points in whichwe can do that, we're not really
talking about how our skills, asyou add two, you're losing
probably two.
If you add six, you're probablylosing two or three, you know,
(23:37):
like it's okay.
But uh, I was telling somebodythe other day, I'm like, you
know, I ran an ad agency, oof,uh, over 10 years ago.
Uh, I don't have those skillsanymore.
Like I could, I learned thoseskills pretty quickly.
Yeah, of course.
(23:57):
Throw me back in, uh, to runningan ad agency.
It'd probably take me threemonths, but.
But I don't have them now.
If I were to do that inventory,I don't have those skills right
now.
Melanie Lougee (24:10):
You know, I relate to that a lot on a very
deeply personal level.
Um, you know, uh, um, so I'mback in a product leadership
role, you know, right, rightnow.
And I love it.
I love my new role.
Um, but for the, uh, seven yearsprior to that, um, you know, I
was leading, uh, employeeworkflow strategy for
(24:31):
ServiceNow.
So, um, across other thingsother than, you know, just the
HR piece.
And before that I was, uh, uh,vice president at Gartner for
four years.
So living in the analyst world.
And so now I'm back leadingproduct again.
And, you know, by the way,leading products changed a lot
in seven years.
(24:52):
The last time I was doing this,like, things were a little bit
different.
And so I've been like, okay,like some things, again, the
soft skills, right?
Like I can motivate a team and Ican treat people well and
respect them and encourage themand, you know, help guide their
career and mentor them.
Like those kinds of things don'tchange.
Um, but the tools that we usechange that the, you know, pace
at which things get released haschanged.
(25:14):
The geographic makeup of theteams has changed, you know,
like all of these other thingshave changed.
So
William Tincup (25:20):
I love it.
And, and you know what, if you,if you, for whatever reason, if
you ever became an analystagain, it turns out there's a
lot of things that are similar.
Yep.
Check.
Got it.
There's a whole bunch of itthat's changed and, and Gartner
and even Gartner has changedjust like it is, it's
unrecognizable to the companythat I knew 15, 20 years ago,
(25:41):
like Totally.
Last question is just your takeon, is there anything that you
see there in practice orsomething that you hear from
some of the customers aroundgenerational things that come
out of managers?
Like, do you see anything wheremillennials or Gen Z or even,
you know, other, other, youknow, other generations where
(26:03):
they're kind of consuming thisnew model, this talent agent
model, either poorly orsuccessfully, like, do you see
anything there?
Melanie Lougee (26:13):
Well, I do think that younger generations tend to
be more fluid in general about,you know, about their
relationships, uh, with theiremployers, um, and, you know, so
I think that, that they, youknow, are, are taking to this
pretty naturally as well as theself directed careers and taking
advantage of the tools that arethere and, um, you know,
(26:35):
demanding, um, theseopportunities and if they don't
see them, they will go findthem, right?
So I think that, um, that theyseem far less likely to sort of
accept a status quo, where theydon't see themselves growing, or
they see themselves being heldback in some ways, you know,
they tend to advocate forthemselves, I think much more
(26:55):
strongly than than oldergenerations.
Um, you know, where we, youknow, and, and some of that
might be because they have thefreedom, they have less
responsibility, right?
Right, right, right, right.
You know, on the, on the otherend of the spectrum, you know,
where, uh, you know, a leader,um, you know, might be in a
situation and they've been aleader for a long time and
they're being asked to do thingsin a different way.
(27:15):
Maybe they agree with it, maybethey don't, you know, it's, it's
very different for them to thinkabout.
You know, helping my talent findother places to be, um, you
know, that might be very, verydifferent for them, um, because
it's a, it's a, it's definitelya change in the culture of work,
uh, over, over time.
Yeah,
William Tincup (27:33):
they've, they've also, they've also got to want
it, regardless of gender orgeneration or any of those types
of things.
They've got to want to become atalent agent.
Melanie Lougee (27:41):
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, and, and, youknow, if they don't want to
become a talent agent, you know,it might be uncomfortable or,
you know, maybe they'll, they'llfind, you know, another, another
way to contribute.
Um, you know, so, right.
William Tincup (27:54):
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
Yeah.
Melanie Lougee (27:58):
Anytime.
It's a, it's been my pleasure.
Thank you.
William Tincup (28:00):
A hundred percent.
And thanks for everyonelistening until next time.
This is William Tincup.
You're listening to theRecruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have Melanie on fromServiceNow.
And our topic today is Manager'sGuide to Leverage HR Tech Now
and Evolving for the Future.
So let's do some introductions.
Uh, Melanie, would you do us afavor and introduce both
yourself and what you do atServiceNow?
Maybe even an overview of whatServiceNow does.
Melanie Lougee (00:54):
Sure, absolutely.
So, um, so ServiceNow wasfounded in 2004, uh, by Fred
Luddy, and he had a vision ofemployees being able to, uh,
seamlessly route work all overthe enterprise, um, as opposed
to what was going on in themarket at that time, which was A
lot of siloed, uh, systems and,and broken processes.
(01:17):
So that was his initial visionand he started with IT
workflows, but then rapidlyexpanded into employee workflows
and customer workflows andfinance workflows.
So we've grown, um, quite a bit.
Uh, so today we are at, uh, 7,400 customers, um, customers
like.
Coca Cola, um, Deloitte, WNBA,um, so a lot of large, uh,
(01:43):
enterprise customers and, uh, myrole, uh, within ServiceNow, um,
is, uh, I head, uh, future HRproducts, uh, for, for
ServiceNow.
So I work within a very coolteam called NALAX, um, and we
are the incubators ofServiceNow.
So we develop the, uh, stealth,uh, projects before they're
(02:03):
ready to graduate and gogenerally available.
Oh, I
William Tincup (02:07):
love that.
This is the Skunk Works team.
You get, you get to really, inthe future of work and kind of
what's next, what's around thecorner, et cetera.
Uh, I love that.
How do y'all, how do y'all,first of all, before we get to
the topics, which is fascinatingas to what you do, how do you,
how do you think about, I mean,when you go to a, uh, a
technology conference, you'relooking How, how are you and the
(02:30):
team, how are y'all lookingabout what's, you know, what's
next?
How do y'all kind of coming upwith that, that list?
Melanie Lougee (02:36):
Sure.
Um, so it's always a balance,um, with product leadership
between, you know, what are youtrying to get out of any
release?
Um, is it a competitiveadvantage?
Is it innovation?
Is it customer?
You know, that type of thing,but, but for me, I like seeing
what's out there, but I get myinspiration and I read my tea
leaves.
Uh, not from reading analystreports, not from walking around
(03:00):
the floor at conferences.
I read the news and I read a lotof it.
So, um, I get it much more fromthe Wall Street Journal or I get
it from the BBC or Al Jazeera orHarvard Business Review.
Um, I like looking at what'shappening in the world, um, and
then kind of pulling the threadand say, well, what is that
going to mean?
And then what will that mean?
(03:20):
And then what will that mean toemployers and employees?
I like
William Tincup (03:24):
that.
I like that.
It's more grounded.
Yeah.
It's, it's like, oh, go ahead
Melanie Lougee (03:28):
and I'll finish with that.
Yeah.
I was going to say, like, I, I,you know, I, I look at like very
much what you just said.
So, um, you know, if HR techtoday is what's today, what's
the future?
Um, I think to figure out thefuture, you have to look outside
of today.
William Tincup (03:41):
Yeah.
And outside of the echo chamber,which I think is, Uh, really,
like you said, analysts andwalking the floor.
That's great.
That's all cool.
But a lot of those folks areusing the same language and, uh,
and copying each other.
And so that's, again, there's noharm.
There's nothing wrong with that,but some of it might be far too
far away from like the realitythat, that, that folks are
(04:04):
feeling in HR, recruiting, etcetera.
So I like that.
How do you Before, again, I'm socurious about this.
How do you cap the, the, thefuture in terms of not going out
too
Melanie Lougee (04:16):
far?
Right, um, that's a goodquestion.
So, I cap the future within 7 to10 years.
Um, I think Got it, got it.
Um, you know, considering howfast the world is changing, you
know, predicting anything hasgotten, um, extremely difficult.
So I look at trends and try tobe like, well, we better plan
(04:38):
for agility and flexibility.
There you go.
William Tincup (04:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I tell people whenever I'mtalking about that type of
stuff, I go, I'm like, yeah, notflying car stuff.
We'll get there.
However, let's just look at thisthing.
And it's a little bit moreimmediate than what you're
dealing with, which I like.
This, the topic that we, that wehave in front of our managers
guide to leverage the HR technow, so let's, let's parse that
between leveraging the HR technow.
(05:03):
And then let's talk about howthey, and we evolve in the
future and how we leverage HRtech in the future.
So how do they, how do you seeit right now?
In terms of them leveraging thetech that they either have now
or they're about to buy.
Melanie Lougee (05:18):
Sure.
Um, so I'll even, I'll even takeit just a half step backwards
and say, how did, how did we gethere, if that's okay?
Sure.
So I think, you know, we wentthrough this era of, um, of HR,
you know, wanting to be able toenable managers so that they
could.
outsourced some of the tasksthat they had to managers and
then somehow HR was supposed toget much more strategic.
(05:40):
Um, and then there was this hugeproliferation of point solutions
that happened and a lot of thatwent to managers.
So over time, managers ended upwith 20 something different apps
that they were using as part oftheir management duties.
Everything from, uh, you know,managing goals to approving
expenses to, um, you know,setting, uh, you know, doing
(06:00):
performance reviews orrecruiting.
Like, every single thing, youknow, had different apps.
And managers really didn't askfor any of it, you know, to
begin with.
Nobody asked the manager whatwas going to be helpful, um, for
them.
And so, you know, what hashappened is that managers have
now ended up with, you know, 20plus different apps that they're
trying to reconcile and theyhave different workflows and
(06:20):
different approvals and it'sfrustrating.
So I think right now we'reseeing a lot of, of, uh,
customers looking for solutionsfor managers that are beginning
to bring it all together.
So at least, you know, give themone place to go, one common
approval process, fewer.
Uh, different experiences thatthey have to, to hop through.
So we're seeing a lot ofinterest there right now as in
(06:42):
consolidation and at least beingable to have an entry point
that's common.
William Tincup (06:47):
Yeah, that tracks for me because of the
spring, I went to five techconferences and kind of a theme
that developed over thoseconferences was, uh, when I
talked to practitioners, it was,uh, William, I just want less
tech.
And, and I'm like, you're at atechnology conference, they hire
me, you're at, you're at, you'reat Unleash or Transform or
(07:07):
whatever the, you know, whateverthe conference was.
I'm like, you're at thisconference.
Like, why are you here?
If you want less tech.
And what, what I kind of gotinto in terms of kind of digging
into that and unpacking it, it'slike, they don't want less tech.
They want less entry points.
They actually want more tech ormore, you know, more from their
tech in some cases, but theywant less entry points for their
(07:30):
managers, for themselves, etcetera.
So it was fascinating.
So that tracks for me.
Melanie Lougee (07:36):
Yeah.
Right.
One ring to rule them
William Tincup (07:38):
all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the advice.
Okay.
So we got here now leveragingthat the, the, the tech.
Uh, stack that they have, if youwill, one of it's kind of
auditing, understanding whatyou've, what you've purchased,
uh, and understanding,especially if you're new, if
you're CHRO and you're new tothe organization, uh, having
(08:01):
doing that audit and findingout, okay, well, we're paying
for this, we're paying for that,et cetera.
And then.
You know, you're finding outuser adoption, like, okay, what,
are we using it or is iteffective?
Uh, and then connecting thosekind of disparate systems to, to
one another.
I know that.
I know that's obviously that'ssomething that's important to
(08:22):
y'all.
Yeah.
Um, how do you, I mean, I thinkthe, the, the audience gets it
because they're feeling thepain.
So, so if they get it and, andit's a little bit easier now
than it was 10, 15, 20 years agowhen consultants had to actually
do all of this integration typework, um, what's the barrier?
And, uh, right now in terms ofleveraging the technology that
(08:45):
they've purchased, what do yousee as kind of common barriers
that you have to kind of coachor your team has to coach, uh,
practitioners
Melanie Lougee (08:54):
through?
Sure.
Um, so I think there's, there'sa couple of different things.
So first I would say is that,um, decisions about HR tech or
tech that managers are going tobe using.
is you really need to consultthe manager.
So I think a lot of the adoptionproblems that we've seen have
really stemmed from HR buildingtools without asking a manager.
(09:14):
What they need.
Um, so HR, building tools for HRthat then missed the, the user
on, on the other end.
So I think that's something thathas to change is we really have
to design around the users, um,you know, for sure.
And if it's something that isactually going to be meaningful
for them and help them withtheir job and be useful and not
be difficult to find orcompletely detached from
(09:36):
anything else, um, You know,then I think we will see much
better adoption, um, especiallyif it's harmonized with one
entry point, like we wereseeing.
And I think we saw a big pushfor that happen, you know, when
everybody went home for thepandemic, right?
They went home and they wenthome from their fancy buildings
that cost, you know, campusesthat, you know, billions of
dollars on these campuses.
And they went home and realizedthat they hadn't updated their
(09:59):
intranet.
15 years and everything's brokenand nobody could get a hold of
anything.
So I think that's something elsetoo, is this, the role of the
personalization of, you know, ifI log into, um, work and get to
the intranet, it should knowthat, you know, I'm a certain
level and I'm in this locationand I have this role and these
are the things that I'm doing,like it should know me and it
should know who I am and supportme as, as a manager, I shouldn't
(10:22):
have to go to some static placeand look around for things and,
you know, not have search thatworks and.
You know, those types of things.
And I think that we're therenow.
I think that's about where weare today is companies are
adopting that type of technologyright now to be able to
simplify.
And in some ways they're,they're putting in layers, you
know, like an employee center,like workflows, you know, like
(10:43):
these, this user experiencelayer.
To kind of wrap some of theseold systems and harmonize them.
That's one of the things thatServiceNow does very well.
And then when you provide thislayer, um, you know, then that
can actually make it easier tosort of replace things
underneath or consolidateunderneath without actually
disrupting the user experience.
William Tincup (11:03):
I love that.
And I love the, the concept of,you know, on two levels,
building products that aremanager centric.
Mm-Hmm.
uh, which is really what we cancontrol on the, on the
technology side, but also buyingMm-Hmm.
uh, and kind of refocusing thebuying process and making sure
managers are somehow involved ora part of, or help build the
(11:26):
short list or part of the demo.
Like again, I think you're, uh,I mean, I know you're right.
The, in terms of them, it'sdelivered to them.
It's bought for them, purchasedfor them, and then it's
delivered to them and theydidn't have a hand in, you know,
I think it's a famous quote of,uh, oh, I can't think, Bill
Parcells, if you, you know, ifyou, if you want me to, uh, to
(11:50):
cook that you should let me, youknow, get the groceries.
Exactly.
Kind of, kind of, kind of soundssimple, right?
But it, but it's with this ideaof like getting them involved in
the buy, how do we, how do weencourage?
Or how do you think that we best
Melanie Lougee (12:05):
encourage?
I think it needs to be anargument around, you know,
productivity and efficiency.
Um, and also just looking atthe, the, the lackluster
adoption records that are outthere.
Um, so you're making theseinvestments and nobody's using
them unless they absolutely haveto.
Um, you know, so I think thatthat's evidence that, that these
(12:25):
things need to be designed theother way.
And the other thing that I'llsay too is most managers don't
care if it's HR or IT or financeor, you know, whatever else, you
know, they, they still, youknow, they just want to be able
to do the things that they needto, to be able to develop their
teams and also do theadministrative end of managing
and facilitate thing.
And they want to be able to dothat, you know, easily without a
(12:47):
lot of silos and barriers.
I love
William Tincup (12:50):
that.
I love that.
And then again, getting, gettingthem involved, getting the
adoption up, I, I sometimeslaugh because you know, people
will ask me about ROI prettymuch every day.
And uh, and I'm like, well,here's the deal.
Every ROI business case that'sever been built in HR is flawed
math because in every case itassumes a hundred percent
(13:13):
adoption.
And in no case has there been ahundred percent adoption.
So, I don't care what technologywe're talking about or the
feature set that we're talkingabout or company or this, that,
and the other, it's never been ahundred percent adoption.
Never will be a hundred percentadoption.
So that's a little, it's alittle dark, but it's true.
There'll never be a hundredpercent adoption, but that means
(13:34):
you don't strive for that.
But the, the, the math.
Is based on 100 percentadoption.
There's no, it's not punished inany way.
So, uh, I kind of, I laugh aboutROI on, on some levels.
Um, I
Melanie Lougee (13:48):
had to build some ROI calculators in my life.
And I, I, you know, I don't, Idon't disagree.
William Tincup (13:55):
Take the math, punish it by 50%.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
No, you're good.
Yeah.
Now it's going to take you 10years to recoup.
Yeah.
That's fine.
That's it.
That tracks.
Uh, But, you know, it's harderto get past the CFO with a, with
a 10 year ROI.
Um, as we talk about, uh,evolving for the future, I want
(14:16):
to kind of bifurcate HR andhelping them kind of evolve,
like, okay, how do we, how doyou consume all this new
technology that's going to bethrown at you?
Sure.
And then also how HR tech, sohow HR tech is evolving as well.
Melanie Lougee (14:31):
Yeah, that's absolutely.
So I, I think.
Um, you know, we're, we're atthis, uh, this, this point in
time where employees are aboutto become extremely, uh, self
directed.
Um, they were already becomingself directed and, and, you
know, starting to drive theirown careers and things along
those lines.
But if you start thinking aboutthe possible combination of not
(14:52):
just AI, skills AI, that canhelp people find a role, find a
mentor, do things like that.
But if you then sort of layeron, you know, Gen AI, which will
allow people to teachthemselves, learn their own
courseware, you know, do all ofthese types of things, then, you
know, they can, you know, reskill themselves, you know, kind
of with or without a manager,with or without an employer, you
(15:15):
know, actually, you know, to acertain degree.
So at that point, You know,managers who are kind of old
school and are just kind oflooking at the output of the
team and maybe they're guilty ofdoing some talent hoarding, you
know, things along those lines,you know, they're really going
to have to change and becomemuch more of a talent agent, if
you will, much more of afacilitator of somebody's
(15:35):
career.
Um, to be able to help thatperson be happy at this
organization and feel likethey're a part of this
organization and help them movearound the organization because,
you know, being, you know,impeding their growth within,
within a company or notfacilitating that growth, um, I
think will very quickly, youknow, lead towards them, you
know, finding, finding their ownway to either a different
(15:55):
department or, or a differentcompany.
Um, because this, the level ofinformation that's available of
learning about, not justlearning about an opportunity,
but then being able to figureout how to get there.
which is a positive, but thatalso means that managers need to
rethink their relationship to anemployee.
Um, I also think that as thathappens, um, that managers will,
(16:17):
you know, not only will theyneed tools that will help, you
know, allow them to engagebetter with, with employees, you
know, as they, as they grow and,and Go along their path, but I
think they'll also start needingto be evaluated differently so
that as a manager, a largerportion portion of my evaluation
and compensation are going tobe, what opportunities do my
(16:37):
people have, right?
Are my people growing?
Are they thinking about careerpaths?
Do they want a career path?
Um, am I, um, giving themexposure?
Am I giving them opportunity andbeing looked at much more as a
talent agent, um, instead of atalent hoarder?
I
William Tincup (16:54):
love that.
What do you, I'm trying to thinkof the kind of the crossroads of
training and managers.
What's, what's theresponsibility of the
organization to train them tobecome those talent agents?
Melanie Lougee (17:07):
Well, I don't even know if I would call it a
responsibility of the place.
I would call it, um, you know, acritical thing to do, right?
You know, so I don't think it'sa nice to have.
I think it's like if you want tostay competitive, if you want to
continue to grow your business,you, you have to grow your
employees or you're going tohave to replace them.
(17:29):
Um, so I don't, I don't reallythink of it as a nice to have.
I think of it as a criticalthing to have, um, you know, to,
to be able to, to foster aculture, you know, for one where
growth is encouraged.
Um, you know, and then also tobe able to, to have there be
coaching and encouragement, um,and then also the tools.
Um, I think past tools have beenvery siloed, like all other
(17:51):
tools that have been created,very siloed, um, so that you've
got a learning system over here,and you've got some goals over
there, and none of them talk toeach other, and you've got, you
know, flat skills in fourdifferent systems, and they
don't harmonize or learn fromeach other.
Um, you know, and it's kind oflike, well, you know, even a
blind squirrel occasionally getsa nut, like, maybe you'll be
promoted someday and, you know,might take this course over here
(18:12):
and then not be connected toanything.
But, you know, where it's going,you know, if you think about
something like employee growthand development, which we, um,
you know, recently released.
Uh, it, it, it allows you toharmonize, again, you know,
like, what are my aspirations,and then be able to tie in other
things, like, do you have amentor, you know, is there some
coursework, is there someshadowing, is there an internal
(18:34):
gig, and be able to create muchmore of a plan, and be able to
do that collaboratively with acoach, or, you know, with your
manager.
Um, and I think that's wheremanagers can play to be able to,
um, you know, have theirrelationship with their
employees to be much moreproductive and, and stickier, if
you will, become much more ofthat talent agent.
(18:55):
So,
William Tincup (18:55):
when you look at talent agent, uh, and again,
managers becoming more liketalent agents, and you've got to
be great at your job.
So if you're, you know, anengineer and you're leading a
team towards whatever, uh, inthat you're leading them, you're
also a talent agent.
So at the same time that youlead a team and you do this, you
know, job, job that you have,you're also a talent agent is,
(19:19):
do you kind of, uh, already havekind of in your mind, kind of an
adoption curve of those of alltheir managers and how they're
kind of, you know, you've gotyour early adopters and the
people that are kind of doingthings on pace and then
laggards, if you will, to kindof keep it real simple.
Do you already kind of seeorganizationally that Some
managers are going to movefaster than others.
Melanie Lougee (19:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, and I think whatcompanies look for in a manager
will change too, right?
Um, you know, so if skills and,um, learning and things like
that can be.
self attainable, um, you know,and, and that kind of training
can happen largelyindependently, then a manager
(20:03):
really needs to be hired morefor their softer skills, for
their leadership qualities, fortheir, um, you know, ability to,
uh, motivate, um, and, and coachand manage, um, a team, you
know, more than, you know, dothey know how to do this
technical thing that's going tobe obsolete in three years.
William Tincup (20:24):
So I love that.
I love the, first of all, I lovepe people being hired more for
their soft skills managers.
Excuse me.
Mm-Hmm.
managers being hired more fortheir soft skills.
Is that a now today thing or?
Melanie Lougee (20:38):
I think we're seeing the beginnings of it.
Okay.
Um, I think we're seeing thebeginnings of it.
Um, and I also think that, youknow, companies, their interest
in things like soft skills andthinking about the future and
stuff like that, um, you know,goes up and down with.
What the, what the labor marketlooks like.
Right.
So, you know, we always seecompanies be much more
(20:59):
interested in things likediversity and inclusion.
Um, you know, when the jobmarket is tight and it's hard to
hire people.
Um, you know, so I think that,you know, some of this is, is
also along with that.
So, you know, companies that,uh, you know, are employers of
choice and they're getting 400resumes for, for a job.
Um, you know, they might have,um, you know, sort of a, a
(21:21):
different environment.
Yeah.
Desire to quickly weed through,find good candidates, develop
the right people, um, you know,that type of a thing than a
company that has a difficulttime attracting people to begin
with.
Right?
Um, you know, they, they mightbe interested in different parts
of the, the talent andleadership process.
William Tincup (21:40):
What do you, what do you see, uh, think of
the theme or, or trend right nowfor hiring for potentiality?
For
Melanie Lougee (21:48):
potentiality.
William Tincup (21:49):
Yeah.
Do you have a take on that?
Melanie Lougee (21:52):
I do have a take on that.
Like I'm pro hiring onpotentiality.
Although I know thatpotentiality it's, it is, it is
very, um, uh, it's a littlesquishy.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's squishy.
It exactly.
It's, it's hard to measure.
It's hard to prove.
You know, anything along thoselines, but I think it is
something that that potentiallyopens up opportunity, um, you
(22:13):
know, and I also think that, youknow, as we see, uh, especially
younger generation being alittle bit less interested in a
four year degree, being a littlebit more interested in managing
their career and going forcertificates that they can
update every few years.
Um, you know, I, I, I do thinkthat, um, you know, there,
there's going to come a timewhere, you know, maybe
(22:33):
somebody's SAT scores is goingto be what gets them into their
first employer.
Something like that, you know,maybe it's aptitude testing, um,
you know, right out of highschool instead of, you know, a
four year degree that, that mayor may not still be relevant,
um, you know, four yearsafterwards.
(22:54):
Yeah,
William Tincup (22:54):
it's almost like Moore's law as it applies to
skills and how fast thosethings.
We talk a lot about, especiallyin our market, we talk a lot
about upskilling, but we rarelytalk about how skills decay and,
and, you know, okay, you havethat degree from so and so and
that was 10 years ago.
Well, is that information or isthat those skills that you
(23:17):
attained, do you still havethose skills?
And so, you know, just as muchas we talk about the plus side
of adding new skills and all thecool things that go along with
that, the access points in whichwe can do that, we're not really
talking about how our skills, asyou add two, you're losing
probably two.
If you add six, you're probablylosing two or three, you know,
(23:37):
like it's okay.
But uh, I was telling somebodythe other day, I'm like, you
know, I ran an ad agency, oof,uh, over 10 years ago.
Uh, I don't have those skillsanymore.
Like I could, I learned thoseskills pretty quickly.
Yeah, of course.
(23:57):
Throw me back in, uh, to runningan ad agency.
It'd probably take me threemonths, but.
But I don't have them now.
If I were to do that inventory,I don't have those skills right
now.
Melanie Lougee (24:10):
You know, I relate to that a lot on a very
deeply personal level.
Um, you know, uh, um, so I'mback in a product leadership
role, you know, right, rightnow.
And I love it.
I love my new role.
Um, but for the, uh, seven yearsprior to that, um, you know, I
was leading, uh, employeeworkflow strategy for
(24:31):
ServiceNow.
So, um, across other thingsother than, you know, just the
HR piece.
And before that I was, uh, uh,vice president at Gartner for
four years.
So living in the analyst world.
And so now I'm back leadingproduct again.
And, you know, by the way,leading products changed a lot
in seven years.
(24:52):
The last time I was doing this,like, things were a little bit
different.
And so I've been like, okay,like some things, again, the
soft skills, right?
Like I can motivate a team and Ican treat people well and
respect them and encourage themand, you know, help guide their
career and mentor them.
Like those kinds of things don'tchange.
Um, but the tools that we usechange that the, you know, pace
at which things get released haschanged.
(25:14):
The geographic makeup of theteams has changed, you know,
like all of these other thingshave changed.
So
William Tincup (25:20):
I love it.
And, and you know what, if you,if you, for whatever reason, if
you ever became an analystagain, it turns out there's a
lot of things that are similar.
Yep.
Check.
Got it.
There's a whole bunch of itthat's changed and, and Gartner
and even Gartner has changedjust like it is, it's
unrecognizable to the companythat I knew 15, 20 years ago,
(25:41):
like Totally.
Last question is just your takeon, is there anything that you
see there in practice orsomething that you hear from
some of the customers aroundgenerational things that come
out of managers?
Like, do you see anything wheremillennials or Gen Z or even,
you know, other, other, youknow, other generations where
(26:03):
they're kind of consuming thisnew model, this talent agent
model, either poorly orsuccessfully, like, do you see
anything there?
Melanie Lougee (26:13):
Well, I do think that younger generations tend to
be more fluid in general about,you know, about their
relationships, uh, with theiremployers, um, and, you know, so
I think that, that they, youknow, are, are taking to this
pretty naturally as well as theself directed careers and taking
advantage of the tools that arethere and, um, you know,
(26:35):
demanding, um, theseopportunities and if they don't
see them, they will go findthem, right?
So I think that, um, that theyseem far less likely to sort of
accept a status quo, where theydon't see themselves growing, or
they see themselves being heldback in some ways, you know,
they tend to advocate forthemselves, I think much more
(26:55):
strongly than than oldergenerations.
Um, you know, where we, youknow, and, and some of that
might be because they have thefreedom, they have less
responsibility, right?
Right, right, right, right.
You know, on the, on the otherend of the spectrum, you know,
where, uh, you know, a leader,um, you know, might be in a
situation and they've been aleader for a long time and
they're being asked to do thingsin a different way.
(27:15):
Maybe they agree with it, maybethey don't, you know, it's, it's
very different for them to thinkabout.
You know, helping my talent findother places to be, um, you
know, that might be very, verydifferent for them, um, because
it's a, it's a, it's definitelya change in the culture of work,
uh, over, over time.
Yeah,
William Tincup (27:33):
they've, they've also, they've also got to want
it, regardless of gender orgeneration or any of those types
of things.
They've got to want to become atalent agent.
Melanie Lougee (27:41):
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, and, and, youknow, if they don't want to
become a talent agent, you know,it might be uncomfortable or,
you know, maybe they'll, they'llfind, you know, another, another
way to contribute.
Um, you know, so, right.
William Tincup (27:54):
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
Yeah.
Melanie Lougee (27:58):
Anytime.
It's a, it's been my pleasure.
Thank you.
William Tincup (28:00):
A hundred percent.
And thanks for everyonelistening until next time.
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