December 17, 2023 • 26 mins
Have you ever wondered how to make the hiring process more efficient and effective? Look no further. William Tincup sits down with John Fox, an expert in innovative hiring automation tools from Indeed. Together, they delve into the power of efficiency and how Indeed's cutting-edge tools are revolutionizing the way companies hire.
Throughout the conversation, John shares insights on Indeed's approach to automation and how it drives efficiency in the hiring process. He explains that the goal is to free up recruiters and hiring managers to spend more time with candidates, ultimately leading to better hiring decisions.
But where do the ideas for these tools come from? William asks John about the process of prioritizing and developing new features. John reveals that feedback from customers, sales representatives, and user research plays a crucial role. Additionally, Indeed keeps an eye on emerging technologies and industry trends to stay ahead of the curve. By listening to their customers and envisioning the future of hiring, Indeed is constantly evolving and improving their tools.
This chat offers a deep dive into the power of efficiency and how Indeed's innovative hiring automation tools are transforming the hiring process.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
William Tincup (00:32):
This is William Tincup, and you're listening to
the Recruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have John Fox on fromIndeed, and our topic is the
power of efficient.
Indeed's innovative hiringautomation tools.
So this is going to be a lot offun.
We've covered Indeed a lot onRecruitingDaily.
And so I can't wait to kind oftalk to John about all these,
(00:52):
the tools, toolkit, if I want tosay.
And so John, why don't you do usa favor and introduce
John Fox (00:57):
yourself.
Awesome.
Well, William, great to meetyou.
And, uh, you know, thanks forhaving me on the podcast today.
Um, uh, so I lead our, withinour employer team, I lead our
growth and innovation group.
Um, so we, we do a lot ofthinking around, uh, automation.
A lot of that, you know,certainly is driving efficiency.
Um, a lot of thinking around,you know, interoperability and,
(01:20):
and a lot of those.
Those various components, um,really as we think about just
how do we, how do we help makehiring just simpler, faster,
more human, um, across theboard?
Um, so I've been at Indeed forjust about seven years now based
out of our New York office and,uh, and yeah, looking forward to
the conversation.
Oh, that's
William Tincup (01:39):
fantastic.
So how did you first get taskedwith this?
Were you hired, was it sevenyears ago you were hired to do
this?
Or has it just been through theyears?
The, uh, Indeed's kind of movedyou around and then you found
this little niche of, okay, weneed to be thinking ahead and
building things that people thatmaybe they're requesting or
(01:59):
maybe they're not requesting,but we know that they need.
John Fox (02:02):
Yeah, it's certainly a great question.
Um, so I originally came toIndeed, um, to build, uh, our
product commercialization group,which is really, really thinking
about, um, how do we takevarious different products to
market?
And, and how can we, you know,continue to grow?
Like what's, what's the productoffering that we think about?
And, and like really over time,uh, You know, basically had said
(02:26):
a couple of years ago, Hey, wereally need to really double
down when we think about justinteroperability and what are
the various differentintegrations that we're building
across the, the employerecosystem, uh, you know, there's
various stats out there thattalk about, you know, Just how
many different HR tools are invarious employers tech stacks,
right?
It can go north of, I think, youknow, 24, 25 different tools.
(02:48):
And, uh, and so certainlyrecognizing that that is, is a
really important thing.
And certainly as a pain pointthat we've heard from, you know,
many employers over the yearstoo.
And so that was, um, kind ofpivoted into, you know, building
that group, which then kind ofexpanded into, um, the role that
I'm in now.
And so certainly not.
Responsible for everything thatis, you know, automation or
(03:10):
efficiency building.
Like we have a lot of greatstuff across many different
groups at Indeed.
Um, but certainly, you know, wesee, uh, uh, you know, a lot of
that, um, today as we'rethinking about just what both,
what are we building within ourgroup?
Um, but then also across, uh,the rest of the ecosystem to,
you know, kind of improve thehiring process for employers and
(03:31):
job seekers alike.
William Tincup (03:32):
So, so where do you get the ideas?
I mean, you know, with the toolsthat kind of come to market
that, you know, you need to kindof build, is it, is it looking
at the market?
Is it, is it talking to yourcustomers?
Is it where, where, where do theideas, cause you can't build it
all.
I mean, not in one day, ofcourse, you know, you're going
to have to kind of prioritizeand deprioritize and do that
type of stuff.
(03:53):
So like, where does the, uh,where does the list come from
and then how do you prioritizeit?
John Fox (03:59):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I think is always somethingthat we are, um, you know,
looking to improve upon as well.
But I think at a high level, howwe think about it is, um, we
certainly want to hear from ourcustomers, um, from our sales
reps, our CS reps, like peoplethat are spending Thank you.
Night and day, you know, withthose, uh, you know, with our
job seekers, right?
(04:20):
With the employers, the peoplethat are making the hires.
Um, and so I think certainly alot of feedback, um, that we get
there.
We certainly encourage a lot ofour product managers to be
spending, uh, as much time asthey can with, uh, you know,
with employers as well.
So that's certainly one, one bigbucket is just like, what is the
feedback?
What are we hearing, um, fromemployers?
And certainly, you know, on thejob seeker side of the world
(04:42):
too.
Um, you know, we want to.
hear from from our job seekersas well.
But so, you know, specificallythinking about my world, so
there's a lot of kind ofemployer feedback that we get.
There's a lot of user researchthat we do as well.
And so kind of a different wayof getting that feedback in from
employers.
And then I'd say probably thethird big bucket is also just
(05:04):
looking at, like, where do wethink the world is moving?
Like, what are new technologiesthat are coming out there that
enable us to do, uh, you know,perhaps different things than
we've done before?
Um, and so, you know, I thinkthere's always a, kind of the
great Henry Ford quote, I thinkthat's, you know, probably made
its rounds, and I probably won'tquote it perfectly, but, you
(05:24):
know, if you ask people, uh,they wouldn't have, And, uh, I
think there's a good mix of, uh,listening to our customers, but
also really trying to, um, youknow, push things forward as
well and kind of envision whatcould the future look like.
Yeah.
They're, they're thinking
William Tincup (05:44):
about themselves, rightfully so.
They're thinking if, you know,they're thinking about
themselves and how they becomemore efficient.
And so it's through the lens ofwhat they know, their experience
and their brand, et cetera.
And so that's.
Limiting, and so you're right,it would, it would be, uh, a
faster, uh, horse drawncarriage, uh, and, and also
(06:05):
probably even worse than that,it would be personalized to them
and their specific needs,whatever they may be, it's
hirely, or, uh, you know, more,more gig workers or whatever,
like it would be a differentbit.
Um, you know, y'all sit at areally interesting kind of a, a,
kind of a crossroads of threedifferent streets of quality,
speed, and personalization.
(06:26):
So I could see efficiency being,for a lot of recruiters at
least, the hiring managersbeing, okay, how do I solve for
the algebra?
How do I solve for speed?
Okay, that's one thing.
How do I solve for quality?
Another thing, maybe, maybe tiedtogether, maybe not.
And how do I solve forpersonalization?
And, um, and, and that might bein conjunction with these other
(06:48):
two or not.
So like where, when you think ofefficient, when you talk to
folks and the tools that you'vebuilt, which, which I want to
get into, where, where's the,where's the push?
Is it, is it one of those isleading the other two around, or
is it all three being pushed atthe same time?
John Fox (07:05):
Well, I think when we, perhaps when we think about it,
kind of one, one of our guidingthings, especially when it comes
to like automation andefficiency is really.
We'd love to have recruiters andhiring managers be able to spend
more time with the candidates,right?
We know there's a lot of, um,it's a lot of just
administrative stuff, frankly,that they get pulled into.
Um, there's certainly a lot oftime that they're, they're
(07:26):
spending on also reallyimportant things around, you
know, qualifying the candidatesand, you know, who should they.
be spending their time with.
Um, but I think a lot of the,the capabilities that, um, you
know, we, we've built thus farare really around how can we
kind of free up that recruiterto be able to spend more time
with those job seekers?
Um, you know, and certainly thatbecomes a really critical part
(07:48):
of, uh, you know, both Figuringout, are they the right fit for
that, um, for that role thatthey're evaluating for?
But then also there's, there'salso an aspect of, you know, if
they are the right fit, likehelping to, uh, to talk to them
about the role and have themhopefully make that decision to,
to join their company and jointhat role.
Um, those, those are things thatI think are more difficult to
(08:08):
automate, uh, if at all.
And so I think there's a lot ofthings, you know, further
upstream when we think about,you know, scheduling and, uh,
you know, can you be thoughtfulwith.
You know, screener questions andother evaluative tools.
In order to, uh, you know, getthe candidate through the
process faster.
And, you know, we also hear fromjob seekers.
(08:30):
They're appreciative of thesethings too because oftentimes
they apply and then they'relike, okay, what's next?
They never hear back.
Yeah.
And so there's a lot of, uh, alot of positive signals that we
get both from, from job seekersand employers when it comes to
kind of the value that.
These different automating, uh,components can bring, um,
certainly kind of allowing that,that, uh, employer to be freed
(08:52):
up or that recruiter to be freedup.
You know what I
William Tincup (08:54):
love about this, John, is it's, it's, uh, it's
allowing the humans to be morehuman.
Yes.
Uh, and, and, uh, with the eyetowards a better candidate
experience or candidate journey.
So candidates, and again, we, wetalk a lot and it's, it's good
that we do talk about candidateexperience, but y'all are, y'all
are solving for the recruiterjourney, the hiring manager
(09:15):
journey and the candidatejourney.
And so giving those humanbeings, be it candidates or, uh,
hiring managers, recruiters,whatever they may be, giving
them more time to be human is abetter experience for all peer,
all parties involved.
So I love that.
I love that.
But we need to talk about toolsbecause.
You know, innovative hiringautomation tools is actually a
(09:37):
part of the title.
So we should probably talk aboutsome of the tools y'all, y'all
have built.
So what, take us through some ofthe things that y'all built and,
uh, we'll kind of, we'll, we'lljust kind of see what you got
here.
John Fox (09:47):
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
And, you know, I think, William,you wrote a great article, I
think, a couple weeks ago, um, Ithink about some of these too,
um, so certainly a great placeto learn more about it, but kind
of maybe the first two that Ithink about is like direct to
interview and direct to message,um, really allowing employers to
kind of set up some preconfiguration so that when
(10:08):
someone applies, um, they can gothrough various steps and just
automatically schedule thatinterview with You know, with
the recruiter, with the hiringmanager, and, you know, really
what we see is that this helpsdrive a significant larger
volume of, you know, ofinterviews.
Um, and certainly we recognize,hey, maybe volume isn't exactly
(10:28):
what you want to go after.
And so certainly variousdifferent ways that you can set
criteria and, you know, screenerquestions and those types of
things to make sure that you'regetting the, um.
You know, the qualifiedapplications that you're looking
for, for those roles.
Um, but I think we see, youknow, on the order of, you know,
10 times more interviews, uh,you know, on Indeed when you're
(10:48):
using that direct to interviewtechnology.
Um, and then in a similar vein,also, uh, we also offer
something called direct tomessage.
And so, maybe the, the rightthing isn't to, uh, set up the
interview right away, But wealso know that when job seekers
have that kind of almostimmediate message back to them,
there are significantly higherlikelihood to kind of progress
(11:11):
in your process.
You know, kind of getting awayfrom what we think about as like
a black hole process, right?
You apply and then you as a jobsee you're here, nothing.
So those are probably the firsttwo that we think about.
And that's, you know, withinour, our hosted job offering,
you know, anyone that's postinga job on Indeed essentially has
those various differentcapabilities.
(11:33):
Um, the next one that I'd, I'dkind of pivot into, you know,
All within sort of the same, uh,kind of, uh, you know, umbrella,
but this one a little bit morefocused on higher volume hiring.
And so hiring events, you know,indeed hiring events as, as the
product, um, you know, it'ssomething that we launched a
couple of years ago and hasreally seen, uh, you know, some
(11:56):
really nice growth.
Uh, lots of employers startingto adopt this hiring event
format that hadn't previouslythought about it.
And, you know, both the abilityto interview virtually, but also
to use this if you have, youknow, in person, uh, you know,
large scale hiring events aswell.
And I think what's interestinghere is we've, you know, in
(12:16):
addition to screener questionsand kind of, uh, various
different front end evaluativetools, we've also experimented
with pulling in things like Inemployers third party assessment
tool that they might use or theability to, um, uh, you know, to
look at various differentcredentials.
And, you know, does, does thisnurse have this, you know,
(12:37):
specific license, um, kind ofall throughout that process.
And then certainly.
Being able to schedule thatinterview, um, and then be able
to facilitate that interview,whether that is, uh, in person
or virtually as well.
And so, really what we hear anda lot of the takeaways we hear
from employers is just, youknow, it's so great that I get
to just come onto the computeror come into this event and just
(13:00):
have A whole bunch of qualified,um, applicants be there right in
front of me for me to go talkto, right?
I didn't have to worry aboutscheduling and looking at all
the various different othertools that was just taken care
of for me.
And, you know, I then got to,um, you know, to basically show
up to that event.
I love
William Tincup (13:18):
that.
And that's great for candidatestoo, because again, they know
that employers are going to bethere.
And then they can then, youknow, put their best foot
forward and, and it's, you know,again, it's fit at that point.
How are y'all, how are y'allconceptualizing kind of the, the
moment of attention thatcandidates have?
Cause, you know, they, they,they look at a job ad and
(13:40):
they're like, all right, that'scool.
That's cool.
That's cool.
Let's apply.
And then that's their, that'sthe, that's the attention span,
right?
They, they found something theyliked, they searched, they
scrolled, they found somethingthey liked, they applied.
How, that half life of theirattention, how do, how do we,
you know, and again, tools wise,how are we thinking about how
(14:01):
employers can best leverage thatmoment of attention that they
get?
Yeah, I
John Fox (14:06):
think it's a great question and, um, I like how you
put it at that moment ofattention.
Um, I think there's, there's afew different aspects to it.
I think one is, it's reallyimportant, I think, as an
employer to really care about,like, what is your employer
brand?
Um, right?
Like, we, we partner a lot withour sister company, Glassdoor,
to help employers tell theirstory about, you know, who is
(14:27):
their, like, what is theiremployer brand?
And so, like, why should I, whenI'm applying to that company?
Like, how does, I don't know,John's Hardware Store
differentiate from the otherplaces that maybe I'm applying
to?
And so, I think that's one partof it, is like, It's more than
just the job, but it's thecompany that I'm working at that
I'm doing that job with, right?
(14:48):
And a lot of times we see thatpeople stay at the job because
of the people and the cultureand those sorts of things, which
is usually difficult to conveyjust in a job posting.
Um, and so I think that's maybethe first thing that we
encourage people to think aboutis, let's just make sure we get
that, that out there, right?
There's some of that that comesinto kind of the job card, if
(15:09):
you will, that comes up onIndeed.
Um, but certainly great for usto think about.
And there's some, some othercapabilities that you have
within like the hiring eventslobby, if you will, to kind of
tell your story more, um, as jobseekers are waiting to, you
know, to move in.
But I think also in like thedays leading up to an event, I
think the other thing that, um,you know, we try to help
(15:32):
employers with is you have toremind people to show up, right?
You have to, and then we alsowant to make sure that we're,
um, we're helping the job seekerget set up for success, right?
So, you know, we try to do is tosay, Hey, this is an interview
that you probably should be in asuit and tie.
This is an interview where youcan go in jeans, you know, so
just like some of the littlethings where if you don't know
(15:54):
the company.
You know, we, we try to justgive you some of those tips or
here's where parking is, or, youknow, just some of those, those
different things to help makethem, uh, as successful as
possible.
And so,
William Tincup (16:06):
John, is that on both?
Cause that's marketing.
I mean, not more, it's notmarketing in the traditional
sense, but it's, it's on both.
It seems like it's on bothsides.
It's reminding the hiringmanager, the recruiter to make
sure that they, you know,invite, et cetera.
And it's also kind of makingsure that the candidate has
success.
So it seems like you're helpingboth parties.
(16:27):
Have the most successful eventthat they could possibly have.
John Fox (16:30):
Yeah, I think that's, it's exactly right.
Uh, you know, I think indeedoverall, like we think about how
do we help people get jobs,right?
That's kind of our guidingmission, what we think about
every day when, when we wake up.
And certainly the employer is abig part of that, right?
They're the ones that areoffering the job.
And so we certainly want to makesure that, um, Both sides are
set up for success, uh, youknow, just in that process
(16:53):
overall.
William Tincup (16:54):
I love that.
Okay, so we talked about hiringevents.
Do you have other tools thatyou, uh, that's three, right?
John Fox (17:01):
Yeah, and so I think the last one that I'd highlight,
and this one's a little bitearlier on, but I think is, is
kind of, um, uh, you know, greatfor us to think about is, um,
what we call Indeed Hire.
And so, this is really pairingour recruiting automation
technology with a team ofdedicated hiring specialists.
Um, really to kind of deliverthe hires more so, um, to the
(17:22):
employers.
So it's a little bit more oflike, let us do it for you, type
of approach.
Um, but we'll partner with someemployers in various different,
um, depths of their hiringprocess.
But like, throughout that, we'realso helping to guide the
employers to say, You know, as,you know, here are the places
that we're seeing drop off inyour current process.
(17:43):
Here are things that we couldadd to your process or
automation that we might have tohelp you to, um, you know, to
address whatever those, thoseissues might be.
And so it really is kind of alonger term partnership that
we're trying to drop.
with those employers.
Um, but it's also, you know, wealso kind of think about it
internally as like a lab ofsorts for, uh, a bunch of great
(18:06):
new ideas that then eventuallykind of make their way to some
of more of the mainstream, uh,products that we have across
Indeed as well.
Well, I
William Tincup (18:16):
like how you said, these are, these are where
you're having drop offs.
It's like in the e commerceworld, that's a, what's a card
abandonment.
So they're getting, they'regetting to this place, but
they're falling out.
Why don't we put a team ofexperts in here and, you know,
let's find out what that is andlet's move them to the next
place.
Uh, that seems like to me,especially, you know, for some
(18:37):
customers just seems like, hey,if they're getting to a certain
point and they're falling out,there's a reason.
Yeah.
And it may, it might be that wedon't have enough recruiters to
really pay attention to'em andkind of move'em forward.
So we need some help.
We need staff augmentation.
We need, we need something.
I don't know what it is, but weneed something.
Uh, I love that.
I love that.
I, I actually love that I cansee clients.
(18:59):
Especially folks that don't,they don't, uh, either see
themselves as recruiting as coreto their business, you know,
across the world, people look atrecruiting differently and, uh,
the UK, like the RPO market orstaffing market, that's, it's
huge because a lot of companiescome, came up and did build
corporate recruiting.
(19:20):
Because we're like, yeah,there's people that are better
at that than us.
Like, we don't need to buildthat.
There's, there's, there's firmsthat do that for us.
And here in America, we, we wentthe opposite way.
We built corporate recruiting,start sourcing and stuff like
that.
So, I love that y'all have thatoption.
And again, you're using it.
In a really, really great way.
(19:40):
As, as, as not just as a thinktank, but also as kind of skunk
works to say, how are y'all,what, what are you learning to
then it's a lab, so you'reproviding a great service for
your clients.
They're winning, and you're alsogetting some inside information
of like, okay, how does thisactually work and how should it
work?
So you're getting other ideas.
Um, when you, when you weretalking about the first two, uh,
(20:02):
tools, I thought about somethingand it's really crazy, but I'm
sure you've been asked thisbefore.
If someone's on a job ad.
Let's say, uh, I work for JohnDeere, we'll just pick a random
company.
So I work for John Deere andsomeone's on my job ad and they
hit apply and I want to chatwith them.
(20:23):
So I know, I know this isn't,this isn't revolutionary.
I'm sure someone's already askedyou about this, but like how,
how hard would that be?
For them to have a more, youknow, it's almost like a
seamless relationship.
Like they applied, boom, nowyou're chatting, now you're
chatting with somebody either atIndeed representing, in that
(20:46):
case, John Deere, or someone atJohn Deere as a recruiter, maybe
even, uh, someone in sourcingthat's then taking them through
the paces.
Like, is that, am I crazy?
Yeah.
I
John Fox (20:58):
mean, it is, it is definitely something we have
looked at many different times.
I can envision like some of the,you know, the UX mock ups that
we have looked at where there'slike a little green light that
would come on next to the job adif someone was available.
William Tincup (21:14):
Oh my God, that'd be so
John Fox (21:16):
cool.
Um, I mean, there, there's somany really interesting, like,
just.
Um, and you know, there's,there's a lot of stuff that
we've looked at, even in, um,you know, being able to apply
via various different methods,right?
Like tackling, you know, and soforth.
And so there's a lot of stuffthat, um, you know, we're
(21:38):
constantly testing and iteratingon.
Um, and so certainly I think.
You know, as we look forward,like messaging and
communication, I think iscertainly a really important
component.
If I recall correctly, like someof the testing we did around
just like on demand messagingwas really around making sure
that there was someone on theother side for the employer to
(22:01):
know.
And so, you know, I think If I,if I guess, you know, five years
into the future, I would assumeyou probably have something like
that.
Right.
Um, but, uh, you know, I thinkit's, it's a really great idea.
Um, you know, cause like, as Iwas saying before, when a job
seeker applies and they get aresponse within the first couple
of hours, like the likelihoodthat that leads to a hire is
(22:24):
greater.
It's something like within fourhours of the application,
they're like 95 percent to leadto a hire or something like
that.
Huge number like that, um, andso certainly something that, you
know, I would assume willcontinue to, to work on and
improve and try to perfect that.
It seems like
William Tincup (22:40):
as you, if you, if you know, and again, I love
the green, the green lightbecause with, with, with, with
the folks that you're doing withthe clients that you work with
in DeepWar, I think again, ifthey're there, like again, if
they're not there, you know,it's like Slack.
If they're not there, it doesn'treally help, but if they're
there.
I can see that, you know, Icould see that really that time,
(23:03):
because as I've studied thehourly market, it isn't always
the people that pay the mostthat get the candidate.
It's uh, at least in the waysthat I've studied, you are
sitting on a much better daythan I am, but in the ways that
I've studied, it's the, it's thepeople that respond first.
Yeah.
Generally speaking in the hourlymarket, a corporate market might
be different, but in the hourlymarket, it's like, if you, you,
(23:26):
if you respond and you say, Hey,thank you so much, text.
Uh, you know, let's set up acall or come by, whatever the
bid is, like, thank you.
We appreciate the application orthe, uh, the, the, the, the
interest.
Come by.
We're interested in you.
Let's go.
It, it, it's not as much, Imean, it is about money, fair,
(23:47):
always going to be about moneyon some levels, but, but
sometimes with, with certainaudiences, it's just how fast
John Fox (23:53):
did you get back with them?
Yeah, I think oftentimes as longas the money is, is like there,
it's not like a significantDelta.
You know, a lot of it comes backto like, who's the company, um,
you know, so like, can I picturemyself at that company?
Are they fast?
Which I think in a lot of jobseekers eyes, if you respond
quickly, like you're interestedin them.
(24:13):
Right.
And I want to work for a companythat's interested in me.
And, and so there, there's a lotof these things that go hand in
hand, but you know, we also seeemployers that have like
multiple pages in their applyprocess, a bunch of drop off and
job seekers.
Yeah.
On the whole are not asinterested.
We also know like the time ofday in which you're okay to
interview them also matters.
(24:34):
Well,
William Tincup (24:34):
so I, I will do it off offline, but there's
this, there's this part in themovie Magnolia with Tom Cruise
where he's being interviewed.
And, uh, the interviewer asked,like, what are you thinking?
And he's sitting back and he'slike, I'm quietly judging you.
And, and I think candidates,especially Gen Z, they judge
(24:58):
companies based on their hiringby, based on their hiring
process.
So those that get fa get back tothem fast, well they got their
stuff together.
If, if, you know what I'msaying, like, if it's 19 pages,
that's a boomer deal.
Yeah, can't, can't, like, like,yeah, can't, you obviously don't
know anything about ourgeneration.
Like, I think that they're juno, I don't have any data to
(25:20):
support this, John, so.
It's just one man's opinion.
John Fox (25:25):
Well, I'll tell you, like, what we do know is If you
are a job seeker, but you'realso a consumer of that
company's goods, whatever it isthat they sell, we do know that
that job seeker, like drawsopinions of that company based
on how that hiring process went,right?
You as an employer, but also asa brand, right, that you're
(25:46):
selling something, uh, you maylose customers because the
hiring process was so poor.
You know, and so like it's,you're, you're always creating,
uh, you know, this perceptionout there in the market.
And that's, you know, it'sreally why we say like employer
brand matters, your processmatters, how you treat job
seekers matter.
Um, and you know, so it all, itall kind of comes back together.
William Tincup (26:09):
John, this has been wonderful.
Thank you so much for carvingout time for us in the audience.
John Fox (26:14):
Yeah.
Anytime, William.
Happy to, uh, happy to chat.
Thanks for having me.
Uh, great conversation.
William Tincup (26:20):
Thanks to you.
And thanks for our audience.
And until next time.
This is William Tincup, and you're listening to
the Recruiting Daily podcast.
Today, we have John Fox on fromIndeed, and our topic is the
power of efficient.
Indeed's innovative hiringautomation tools.
So this is going to be a lot offun.
We've covered Indeed a lot onRecruitingDaily.
And so I can't wait to kind oftalk to John about all these,
(00:52):
the tools, toolkit, if I want tosay.
And so John, why don't you do usa favor and introduce
John Fox (00:57):
yourself.
Awesome.
Well, William, great to meetyou.
And, uh, you know, thanks forhaving me on the podcast today.
Um, uh, so I lead our, withinour employer team, I lead our
growth and innovation group.
Um, so we, we do a lot ofthinking around, uh, automation.
A lot of that, you know,certainly is driving efficiency.
Um, a lot of thinking around,you know, interoperability and,
(01:20):
and a lot of those.
Those various components, um,really as we think about just
how do we, how do we help makehiring just simpler, faster,
more human, um, across theboard?
Um, so I've been at Indeed forjust about seven years now based
out of our New York office and,uh, and yeah, looking forward to
the conversation.
Oh, that's
William Tincup (01:39):
fantastic.
So how did you first get taskedwith this?
Were you hired, was it sevenyears ago you were hired to do
this?
Or has it just been through theyears?
The, uh, Indeed's kind of movedyou around and then you found
this little niche of, okay, weneed to be thinking ahead and
building things that people thatmaybe they're requesting or
(01:59):
maybe they're not requesting,but we know that they need.
John Fox (02:02):
Yeah, it's certainly a great question.
Um, so I originally came toIndeed, um, to build, uh, our
product commercialization group,which is really, really thinking
about, um, how do we takevarious different products to
market?
And, and how can we, you know,continue to grow?
Like what's, what's the productoffering that we think about?
And, and like really over time,uh, You know, basically had said
(02:26):
a couple of years ago, Hey, wereally need to really double
down when we think about justinteroperability and what are
the various differentintegrations that we're building
across the, the employerecosystem, uh, you know, there's
various stats out there thattalk about, you know, Just how
many different HR tools are invarious employers tech stacks,
right?
It can go north of, I think, youknow, 24, 25 different tools.
(02:48):
And, uh, and so certainlyrecognizing that that is, is a
really important thing.
And certainly as a pain pointthat we've heard from, you know,
many employers over the yearstoo.
And so that was, um, kind ofpivoted into, you know, building
that group, which then kind ofexpanded into, um, the role that
I'm in now.
And so certainly not.
Responsible for everything thatis, you know, automation or
(03:10):
efficiency building.
Like we have a lot of greatstuff across many different
groups at Indeed.
Um, but certainly, you know, wesee, uh, uh, you know, a lot of
that, um, today as we'rethinking about just what both,
what are we building within ourgroup?
Um, but then also across, uh,the rest of the ecosystem to,
you know, kind of improve thehiring process for employers and
(03:31):
job seekers alike.
William Tincup (03:32):
So, so where do you get the ideas?
I mean, you know, with the toolsthat kind of come to market
that, you know, you need to kindof build, is it, is it looking
at the market?
Is it, is it talking to yourcustomers?
Is it where, where, where do theideas, cause you can't build it
all.
I mean, not in one day, ofcourse, you know, you're going
to have to kind of prioritizeand deprioritize and do that
type of stuff.
(03:53):
So like, where does the, uh,where does the list come from
and then how do you prioritizeit?
John Fox (03:59):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I think is always somethingthat we are, um, you know,
looking to improve upon as well.
But I think at a high level, howwe think about it is, um, we
certainly want to hear from ourcustomers, um, from our sales
reps, our CS reps, like peoplethat are spending Thank you.
Night and day, you know, withthose, uh, you know, with our
job seekers, right?
(04:20):
With the employers, the peoplethat are making the hires.
Um, and so I think certainly alot of feedback, um, that we get
there.
We certainly encourage a lot ofour product managers to be
spending, uh, as much time asthey can with, uh, you know,
with employers as well.
So that's certainly one, one bigbucket is just like, what is the
feedback?
What are we hearing, um, fromemployers?
And certainly, you know, on thejob seeker side of the world
(04:42):
too.
Um, you know, we want to.
hear from from our job seekersas well.
But so, you know, specificallythinking about my world, so
there's a lot of kind ofemployer feedback that we get.
There's a lot of user researchthat we do as well.
And so kind of a different wayof getting that feedback in from
employers.
And then I'd say probably thethird big bucket is also just
(05:04):
looking at, like, where do wethink the world is moving?
Like, what are new technologiesthat are coming out there that
enable us to do, uh, you know,perhaps different things than
we've done before?
Um, and so, you know, I thinkthere's always a, kind of the
great Henry Ford quote, I thinkthat's, you know, probably made
its rounds, and I probably won'tquote it perfectly, but, you
(05:24):
know, if you ask people, uh,they wouldn't have, And, uh, I
think there's a good mix of, uh,listening to our customers, but
also really trying to, um, youknow, push things forward as
well and kind of envision whatcould the future look like.
Yeah.
They're, they're thinking
William Tincup (05:44):
about themselves, rightfully so.
They're thinking if, you know,they're thinking about
themselves and how they becomemore efficient.
And so it's through the lens ofwhat they know, their experience
and their brand, et cetera.
And so that's.
Limiting, and so you're right,it would, it would be, uh, a
faster, uh, horse drawncarriage, uh, and, and also
(06:05):
probably even worse than that,it would be personalized to them
and their specific needs,whatever they may be, it's
hirely, or, uh, you know, more,more gig workers or whatever,
like it would be a differentbit.
Um, you know, y'all sit at areally interesting kind of a, a,
kind of a crossroads of threedifferent streets of quality,
speed, and personalization.
(06:26):
So I could see efficiency being,for a lot of recruiters at
least, the hiring managersbeing, okay, how do I solve for
the algebra?
How do I solve for speed?
Okay, that's one thing.
How do I solve for quality?
Another thing, maybe, maybe tiedtogether, maybe not.
And how do I solve forpersonalization?
And, um, and, and that might bein conjunction with these other
(06:48):
two or not.
So like where, when you think ofefficient, when you talk to
folks and the tools that you'vebuilt, which, which I want to
get into, where, where's the,where's the push?
Is it, is it one of those isleading the other two around, or
is it all three being pushed atthe same time?
John Fox (07:05):
Well, I think when we, perhaps when we think about it,
kind of one, one of our guidingthings, especially when it comes
to like automation andefficiency is really.
We'd love to have recruiters andhiring managers be able to spend
more time with the candidates,right?
We know there's a lot of, um,it's a lot of just
administrative stuff, frankly,that they get pulled into.
Um, there's certainly a lot oftime that they're, they're
(07:26):
spending on also reallyimportant things around, you
know, qualifying the candidatesand, you know, who should they.
be spending their time with.
Um, but I think a lot of the,the capabilities that, um, you
know, we, we've built thus farare really around how can we
kind of free up that recruiterto be able to spend more time
with those job seekers?
Um, you know, and certainly thatbecomes a really critical part
(07:48):
of, uh, you know, both Figuringout, are they the right fit for
that, um, for that role thatthey're evaluating for?
But then also there's, there'salso an aspect of, you know, if
they are the right fit, likehelping to, uh, to talk to them
about the role and have themhopefully make that decision to,
to join their company and jointhat role.
Um, those, those are things thatI think are more difficult to
(08:08):
automate, uh, if at all.
And so I think there's a lot ofthings, you know, further
upstream when we think about,you know, scheduling and, uh,
you know, can you be thoughtfulwith.
You know, screener questions andother evaluative tools.
In order to, uh, you know, getthe candidate through the
process faster.
And, you know, we also hear fromjob seekers.
(08:30):
They're appreciative of thesethings too because oftentimes
they apply and then they'relike, okay, what's next?
They never hear back.
Yeah.
And so there's a lot of, uh, alot of positive signals that we
get both from, from job seekersand employers when it comes to
kind of the value that.
These different automating, uh,components can bring, um,
certainly kind of allowing that,that, uh, employer to be freed
(08:52):
up or that recruiter to be freedup.
You know what I
William Tincup (08:54):
love about this, John, is it's, it's, uh, it's
allowing the humans to be morehuman.
Yes.
Uh, and, and, uh, with the eyetowards a better candidate
experience or candidate journey.
So candidates, and again, we, wetalk a lot and it's, it's good
that we do talk about candidateexperience, but y'all are, y'all
are solving for the recruiterjourney, the hiring manager
(09:15):
journey and the candidatejourney.
And so giving those humanbeings, be it candidates or, uh,
hiring managers, recruiters,whatever they may be, giving
them more time to be human is abetter experience for all peer,
all parties involved.
So I love that.
I love that.
But we need to talk about toolsbecause.
You know, innovative hiringautomation tools is actually a
(09:37):
part of the title.
So we should probably talk aboutsome of the tools y'all, y'all
have built.
So what, take us through some ofthe things that y'all built and,
uh, we'll kind of, we'll, we'lljust kind of see what you got
here.
John Fox (09:47):
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
And, you know, I think, William,you wrote a great article, I
think, a couple weeks ago, um, Ithink about some of these too,
um, so certainly a great placeto learn more about it, but kind
of maybe the first two that Ithink about is like direct to
interview and direct to message,um, really allowing employers to
kind of set up some preconfiguration so that when
(10:08):
someone applies, um, they can gothrough various steps and just
automatically schedule thatinterview with You know, with
the recruiter, with the hiringmanager, and, you know, really
what we see is that this helpsdrive a significant larger
volume of, you know, ofinterviews.
Um, and certainly we recognize,hey, maybe volume isn't exactly
(10:28):
what you want to go after.
And so certainly variousdifferent ways that you can set
criteria and, you know, screenerquestions and those types of
things to make sure that you'regetting the, um.
You know, the qualifiedapplications that you're looking
for, for those roles.
Um, but I think we see, youknow, on the order of, you know,
10 times more interviews, uh,you know, on Indeed when you're
(10:48):
using that direct to interviewtechnology.
Um, and then in a similar vein,also, uh, we also offer
something called direct tomessage.
And so, maybe the, the rightthing isn't to, uh, set up the
interview right away, But wealso know that when job seekers
have that kind of almostimmediate message back to them,
there are significantly higherlikelihood to kind of progress
(11:11):
in your process.
You know, kind of getting awayfrom what we think about as like
a black hole process, right?
You apply and then you as a jobsee you're here, nothing.
So those are probably the firsttwo that we think about.
And that's, you know, withinour, our hosted job offering,
you know, anyone that's postinga job on Indeed essentially has
those various differentcapabilities.
(11:33):
Um, the next one that I'd, I'dkind of pivot into, you know,
All within sort of the same, uh,kind of, uh, you know, umbrella,
but this one a little bit morefocused on higher volume hiring.
And so hiring events, you know,indeed hiring events as, as the
product, um, you know, it'ssomething that we launched a
couple of years ago and hasreally seen, uh, you know, some
(11:56):
really nice growth.
Uh, lots of employers startingto adopt this hiring event
format that hadn't previouslythought about it.
And, you know, both the abilityto interview virtually, but also
to use this if you have, youknow, in person, uh, you know,
large scale hiring events aswell.
And I think what's interestinghere is we've, you know, in
(12:16):
addition to screener questionsand kind of, uh, various
different front end evaluativetools, we've also experimented
with pulling in things like Inemployers third party assessment
tool that they might use or theability to, um, uh, you know, to
look at various differentcredentials.
And, you know, does, does thisnurse have this, you know,
(12:37):
specific license, um, kind ofall throughout that process.
And then certainly.
Being able to schedule thatinterview, um, and then be able
to facilitate that interview,whether that is, uh, in person
or virtually as well.
And so, really what we hear anda lot of the takeaways we hear
from employers is just, youknow, it's so great that I get
to just come onto the computeror come into this event and just
(13:00):
have A whole bunch of qualified,um, applicants be there right in
front of me for me to go talkto, right?
I didn't have to worry aboutscheduling and looking at all
the various different othertools that was just taken care
of for me.
And, you know, I then got to,um, you know, to basically show
up to that event.
I love
William Tincup (13:18):
that.
And that's great for candidatestoo, because again, they know
that employers are going to bethere.
And then they can then, youknow, put their best foot
forward and, and it's, you know,again, it's fit at that point.
How are y'all, how are y'allconceptualizing kind of the, the
moment of attention thatcandidates have?
Cause, you know, they, they,they look at a job ad and
(13:40):
they're like, all right, that'scool.
That's cool.
That's cool.
Let's apply.
And then that's their, that'sthe, that's the attention span,
right?
They, they found something theyliked, they searched, they
scrolled, they found somethingthey liked, they applied.
How, that half life of theirattention, how do, how do we,
you know, and again, tools wise,how are we thinking about how
(14:01):
employers can best leverage thatmoment of attention that they
get?
Yeah, I
John Fox (14:06):
think it's a great question and, um, I like how you
put it at that moment ofattention.
Um, I think there's, there's afew different aspects to it.
I think one is, it's reallyimportant, I think, as an
employer to really care about,like, what is your employer
brand?
Um, right?
Like, we, we partner a lot withour sister company, Glassdoor,
to help employers tell theirstory about, you know, who is
(14:27):
their, like, what is theiremployer brand?
And so, like, why should I, whenI'm applying to that company?
Like, how does, I don't know,John's Hardware Store
differentiate from the otherplaces that maybe I'm applying
to?
And so, I think that's one partof it, is like, It's more than
just the job, but it's thecompany that I'm working at that
I'm doing that job with, right?
(14:48):
And a lot of times we see thatpeople stay at the job because
of the people and the cultureand those sorts of things, which
is usually difficult to conveyjust in a job posting.
Um, and so I think that's maybethe first thing that we
encourage people to think aboutis, let's just make sure we get
that, that out there, right?
There's some of that that comesinto kind of the job card, if
(15:09):
you will, that comes up onIndeed.
Um, but certainly great for usto think about.
And there's some, some othercapabilities that you have
within like the hiring eventslobby, if you will, to kind of
tell your story more, um, as jobseekers are waiting to, you
know, to move in.
But I think also in like thedays leading up to an event, I
think the other thing that, um,you know, we try to help
(15:32):
employers with is you have toremind people to show up, right?
You have to, and then we alsowant to make sure that we're,
um, we're helping the job seekerget set up for success, right?
So, you know, we try to do is tosay, Hey, this is an interview
that you probably should be in asuit and tie.
This is an interview where youcan go in jeans, you know, so
just like some of the littlethings where if you don't know
(15:54):
the company.
You know, we, we try to justgive you some of those tips or
here's where parking is, or, youknow, just some of those, those
different things to help makethem, uh, as successful as
possible.
And so,
William Tincup (16:06):
John, is that on both?
Cause that's marketing.
I mean, not more, it's notmarketing in the traditional
sense, but it's, it's on both.
It seems like it's on bothsides.
It's reminding the hiringmanager, the recruiter to make
sure that they, you know,invite, et cetera.
And it's also kind of makingsure that the candidate has
success.
So it seems like you're helpingboth parties.
(16:27):
Have the most successful eventthat they could possibly have.
John Fox (16:30):
Yeah, I think that's, it's exactly right.
Uh, you know, I think indeedoverall, like we think about how
do we help people get jobs,right?
That's kind of our guidingmission, what we think about
every day when, when we wake up.
And certainly the employer is abig part of that, right?
They're the ones that areoffering the job.
And so we certainly want to makesure that, um, Both sides are
set up for success, uh, youknow, just in that process
(16:53):
overall.
William Tincup (16:54):
I love that.
Okay, so we talked about hiringevents.
Do you have other tools thatyou, uh, that's three, right?
John Fox (17:01):
Yeah, and so I think the last one that I'd highlight,
and this one's a little bitearlier on, but I think is, is
kind of, um, uh, you know, greatfor us to think about is, um,
what we call Indeed Hire.
And so, this is really pairingour recruiting automation
technology with a team ofdedicated hiring specialists.
Um, really to kind of deliverthe hires more so, um, to the
(17:22):
employers.
So it's a little bit more oflike, let us do it for you, type
of approach.
Um, but we'll partner with someemployers in various different,
um, depths of their hiringprocess.
But like, throughout that, we'realso helping to guide the
employers to say, You know, as,you know, here are the places
that we're seeing drop off inyour current process.
(17:43):
Here are things that we couldadd to your process or
automation that we might have tohelp you to, um, you know, to
address whatever those, thoseissues might be.
And so it really is kind of alonger term partnership that
we're trying to drop.
with those employers.
Um, but it's also, you know, wealso kind of think about it
internally as like a lab ofsorts for, uh, a bunch of great
(18:06):
new ideas that then eventuallykind of make their way to some
of more of the mainstream, uh,products that we have across
Indeed as well.
Well, I
William Tincup (18:16):
like how you said, these are, these are where
you're having drop offs.
It's like in the e commerceworld, that's a, what's a card
abandonment.
So they're getting, they'regetting to this place, but
they're falling out.
Why don't we put a team ofexperts in here and, you know,
let's find out what that is andlet's move them to the next
place.
Uh, that seems like to me,especially, you know, for some
(18:37):
customers just seems like, hey,if they're getting to a certain
point and they're falling out,there's a reason.
Yeah.
And it may, it might be that wedon't have enough recruiters to
really pay attention to'em andkind of move'em forward.
So we need some help.
We need staff augmentation.
We need, we need something.
I don't know what it is, but weneed something.
Uh, I love that.
I love that.
I, I actually love that I cansee clients.
(18:59):
Especially folks that don't,they don't, uh, either see
themselves as recruiting as coreto their business, you know,
across the world, people look atrecruiting differently and, uh,
the UK, like the RPO market orstaffing market, that's, it's
huge because a lot of companiescome, came up and did build
corporate recruiting.
(19:20):
Because we're like, yeah,there's people that are better
at that than us.
Like, we don't need to buildthat.
There's, there's, there's firmsthat do that for us.
And here in America, we, we wentthe opposite way.
We built corporate recruiting,start sourcing and stuff like
that.
So, I love that y'all have thatoption.
And again, you're using it.
In a really, really great way.
(19:40):
As, as, as not just as a thinktank, but also as kind of skunk
works to say, how are y'all,what, what are you learning to
then it's a lab, so you'reproviding a great service for
your clients.
They're winning, and you're alsogetting some inside information
of like, okay, how does thisactually work and how should it
work?
So you're getting other ideas.
Um, when you, when you weretalking about the first two, uh,
(20:02):
tools, I thought about somethingand it's really crazy, but I'm
sure you've been asked thisbefore.
If someone's on a job ad.
Let's say, uh, I work for JohnDeere, we'll just pick a random
company.
So I work for John Deere andsomeone's on my job ad and they
hit apply and I want to chatwith them.
(20:23):
So I know, I know this isn't,this isn't revolutionary.
I'm sure someone's already askedyou about this, but like how,
how hard would that be?
For them to have a more, youknow, it's almost like a
seamless relationship.
Like they applied, boom, nowyou're chatting, now you're
chatting with somebody either atIndeed representing, in that
(20:46):
case, John Deere, or someone atJohn Deere as a recruiter, maybe
even, uh, someone in sourcingthat's then taking them through
the paces.
Like, is that, am I crazy?
Yeah.
I
John Fox (20:58):
mean, it is, it is definitely something we have
looked at many different times.
I can envision like some of the,you know, the UX mock ups that
we have looked at where there'slike a little green light that
would come on next to the job adif someone was available.
William Tincup (21:14):
Oh my God, that'd be so
John Fox (21:16):
cool.
Um, I mean, there, there's somany really interesting, like,
just.
Um, and you know, there's,there's a lot of stuff that
we've looked at, even in, um,you know, being able to apply
via various different methods,right?
Like tackling, you know, and soforth.
And so there's a lot of stuffthat, um, you know, we're
(21:38):
constantly testing and iteratingon.
Um, and so certainly I think.
You know, as we look forward,like messaging and
communication, I think iscertainly a really important
component.
If I recall correctly, like someof the testing we did around
just like on demand messagingwas really around making sure
that there was someone on theother side for the employer to
(22:01):
know.
And so, you know, I think If I,if I guess, you know, five years
into the future, I would assumeyou probably have something like
that.
Right.
Um, but, uh, you know, I thinkit's, it's a really great idea.
Um, you know, cause like, as Iwas saying before, when a job
seeker applies and they get aresponse within the first couple
of hours, like the likelihoodthat that leads to a hire is
(22:24):
greater.
It's something like within fourhours of the application,
they're like 95 percent to leadto a hire or something like
that.
Huge number like that, um, andso certainly something that, you
know, I would assume willcontinue to, to work on and
improve and try to perfect that.
It seems like
William Tincup (22:40):
as you, if you, if you know, and again, I love
the green, the green lightbecause with, with, with, with
the folks that you're doing withthe clients that you work with
in DeepWar, I think again, ifthey're there, like again, if
they're not there, you know,it's like Slack.
If they're not there, it doesn'treally help, but if they're
there.
I can see that, you know, Icould see that really that time,
(23:03):
because as I've studied thehourly market, it isn't always
the people that pay the mostthat get the candidate.
It's uh, at least in the waysthat I've studied, you are
sitting on a much better daythan I am, but in the ways that
I've studied, it's the, it's thepeople that respond first.
Yeah.
Generally speaking in the hourlymarket, a corporate market might
be different, but in the hourlymarket, it's like, if you, you,
(23:26):
if you respond and you say, Hey,thank you so much, text.
Uh, you know, let's set up acall or come by, whatever the
bid is, like, thank you.
We appreciate the application orthe, uh, the, the, the, the
interest.
Come by.
We're interested in you.
Let's go.
It, it, it's not as much, Imean, it is about money, fair,
(23:47):
always going to be about moneyon some levels, but, but
sometimes with, with certainaudiences, it's just how fast
John Fox (23:53):
did you get back with them?
Yeah, I think oftentimes as longas the money is, is like there,
it's not like a significantDelta.
You know, a lot of it comes backto like, who's the company, um,
you know, so like, can I picturemyself at that company?
Are they fast?
Which I think in a lot of jobseekers eyes, if you respond
quickly, like you're interestedin them.
(24:13):
Right.
And I want to work for a companythat's interested in me.
And, and so there, there's a lotof these things that go hand in
hand, but you know, we also seeemployers that have like
multiple pages in their applyprocess, a bunch of drop off and
job seekers.
Yeah.
On the whole are not asinterested.
We also know like the time ofday in which you're okay to
interview them also matters.
(24:34):
Well,
William Tincup (24:34):
so I, I will do it off offline, but there's
this, there's this part in themovie Magnolia with Tom Cruise
where he's being interviewed.
And, uh, the interviewer asked,like, what are you thinking?
And he's sitting back and he'slike, I'm quietly judging you.
And, and I think candidates,especially Gen Z, they judge
(24:58):
companies based on their hiringby, based on their hiring
process.
So those that get fa get back tothem fast, well they got their
stuff together.
If, if, you know what I'msaying, like, if it's 19 pages,
that's a boomer deal.
Yeah, can't, can't, like, like,yeah, can't, you obviously don't
know anything about ourgeneration.
Like, I think that they're juno, I don't have any data to
(25:20):
support this, John, so.
It's just one man's opinion.
John Fox (25:25):
Well, I'll tell you, like, what we do know is If you
are a job seeker, but you'realso a consumer of that
company's goods, whatever it isthat they sell, we do know that
that job seeker, like drawsopinions of that company based
on how that hiring process went,right?
You as an employer, but also asa brand, right, that you're
(25:46):
selling something, uh, you maylose customers because the
hiring process was so poor.
You know, and so like it's,you're, you're always creating,
uh, you know, this perceptionout there in the market.
And that's, you know, it'sreally why we say like employer
brand matters, your processmatters, how you treat job
seekers matter.
Um, and you know, so it all, itall kind of comes back together.
William Tincup (26:09):
John, this has been wonderful.
Thank you so much for carvingout time for us in the audience.
John Fox (26:14):
Yeah.
Anytime, William.
Happy to, uh, happy to chat.
Thanks for having me.
Uh, great conversation.
William Tincup (26:20):
Thanks to you.
And thanks for our audience.
And until next time.
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