January 5, 2024 • 43 mins
Uncover the hidden layers of New York City's youth gun culture with the Center for Justice Innovations' Basaime Spate (a Community Based Research Coordinator), Javonte Alexander (a Senior Research Associate), and Elise White (Interim Senior Director of Research and Policy), who, along with Rachel Swaner (Research Director), created the groundbreaking report, "Two Battlefields: Ops, Cops, and NYC Youth Gun Culture." This report takes us into the heart of Crown Heights, Brooklyn, to understand the struggle young people face amid peer opposition and police interactions. Through a fusion of lived experience and participatory research, their research — and therefore our conversation — reveals the fear driving gun carrying amongst young people and the importance of actionable outcomes to combat gun violence.
Together, Basaime, Elise, and Javonte break down for hosts JJ and Kelly how fear and safety form the crux of the narrative that prompts youths to arm themselves, a tale that spans personal protection to unpredictable police encounters — and how we can all be contributing to lowering that fear and firearm carrying.
Further reading:
"Two Battlefields: Ops, Cops, and NYC Youth Gun Culture." (Center for Justice Innovation)
Community Researchers Connect with Young Gun-Carriers for Groundbreaking New Report (Center for Justice Innovation)
Safety fears prompt more Brooklyn youths to carry guns, report finds (NY daily news)
The psychology of guns: risk, fear, and motivated reasoning (Palgrave Commun 5)
For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.
Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.
In a crisis? Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor 24/7.
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is the legal disclaimer, where I tell you
that the views, thoughts andopinion shared on this podcast
belong solely to our guests andhosts and not necessarily Brady
or Brady's affiliates.
Please note this podcastcontains discussions of violence
that some people may finddisturbing.
It's okay, we find itdisturbing too.
Hey, everybody, welcome back toanother episode of Red, blue
(00:44):
and Brady.
I'm one of your hosts, jj.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm Kelly, your other host.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And Kelly and I are sitting down with a full panel
today to discuss, honestly, anamazing publication.
It's so rare, kelly, that weget something that crosses our
table where we're like oh my God, the methods are as interesting
and important as the findings.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and I also feel like if you're
listening to this podcast oryou've been paying attention to
what's going on in the lastmentioned at all, then you might
get the perception sometimesthat there's this binary between
working in the community orworking in a research and policy
space, and the panel that wehave today really just totally
(01:27):
shows that that is a falsebinary.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So we were given this report for the Center for
Justice Innovation and titledTwo Battlefields Ops Cops and
NYC Youth Gun Culture, and wewent I mean immediately I'm
intrigued by that title thatlooked at more than 100 young
gun carriers in Crown Heights,brooklyn, and we were just so
fortunate that three out of thefour authors, elise, basim and
(01:50):
Givante, were able to sit downwith us and explain.
I mean one, I needed to knowwhat Ops was.
I'm not cool, kelly, I don'tknow slang, but so what does it
mean that these two battlefieldsthat youth and NYC who carry
guns, are facing people inopposition to themselves and
police?
And what does that finding meanfor folks who are trying to
(02:11):
fight against gun violence?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, so for defense.
We know slang.
It just might be from like the90s, but that's still a thing.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm Basim Spade.
I've been with CJI since 2012,but as a SOS, save Our Streets
and the Cure Violence part, as aviolence interrupter and
outreach worker.
I did not recently moved intolike five years ago, 2018, and
the Research and PolicyDepartment here at CJI and
joined the first researchproject that we did and there I
(02:45):
was started off as securitywatching that academic team as
they do this research on gangsand guns and the Bronx.
Then I eventually moved up andbecame a researcher and learned
all these research skills andthese methods and there I was
able to move up to a supervisorrole and I'm bored and want best
friend here, givante.
(03:05):
I bore him on because we grewup together in the streets and I
knew that he's capable oflearning these research methods
and skills and bringing adifferent, I'd say, skill set to
the work, especially to theproject that we was doing and
the project that we're about tospeak about and as Jews, and our
credibility and our respect andthe relationships that we had
to be able to gain this datathat we have here today.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
How you doing.
I'm Givante Alexander.
I've been at CJI for five yearsnow.
I'm a community researchcoordinator.
Yeah, and I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Hi, my name is Elise White.
I'm the Interim Director ofResearch and Policy here at the
Center and I also oversee all ofour community-based research
and participatory andparticipatory action projects.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And you all kind of touched on it already, but we're
talking today.
You've done a lot, but we'retalking today about the project
to battlefields, ops, cops andNYC youth gun culture, and we're
going to talk all about ittoday.
But before we get into it, I'mjust wondering if you could tell
us how it started.
What was the seed of theproject?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Sure, I can give a little background.
So the same thing that Ialready mentioned.
We did a project together fromabout 2018, 2017 to 2020.
It was funded by the NationalInstitute of Justice and it was
originally a much more kind ofstraight up and down traditional
research project.
So it had a traditional kind ofacademic team, a traditionally
(04:31):
trained folks and pretty quicklyinto the project we just were
not getting the traction that weneeded to get and actually none
of us were on the project atthat point.
But through a variety of things,I took over kind of supervising
it and we quickly realized thatwe needed folks who had
connections, who understood theculture, who understood kind of
(04:53):
how street culture functions, inorder to get people to be
willing to talk at all about guncarrying.
Because you know, a lot of timespeople will bring it up as part
of other projects or whenyou're focused elsewhere.
But when you're going directlyin into neighborhoods asking
about specifically people's guncarrying behavior, it's just a
very different dynamic andpeople are understandably very
(05:15):
nervous.
They're skeptical, they don'ttrust it, they don't understand
what the point you know likewhere it's going, they don't
know who any of us are andbecause a lot of what they're
talking about gets close tobeing kind of implicating
potentially for themselves orpeople that they know they just
they're not going to do it, andso that project became a
participatory project, what wecall participatory project,
meaning that the team who's inthe field collecting the data
(05:36):
has the lived experience orshares a lot in common with the
folks that they're interviewingand that they're working with.
But I will say that when we were, as they were in the field,
kind of as we were wrapping upthe data collection, one of the
real frustrations was that therewasn't a give back to the
community, something directlythat people who participated in
the study or who were kind ofwatching it roll out could get
(05:58):
and kind of walk away with.
And there were a lot of findingsfrom that study that we thought
were really rich and reallycompelling and we wanted to dig
deeper.
You know, with all research itwill undoubtedly yield
additional questions that youwant to know more about.
So there was that piece, butthen we also wanted to weave in
an action piece, and so thisproject to battlefields is
looking specifically at thesocial and cultural context for
(06:21):
youth gun carrying and is a partof a four city project.
So we're looking at New York'sWilmington, delaware where my
co-principal investigator is,and then Detroit and
Philadelphia, and I mean each ofthose cities is so unique in
terms of how there are a lot ofsimilarities and a lot of
differences.
And so we're in the end stagesof data and analysis and those
(06:46):
reports.
Each city is going to get itsown report.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And it's really.
I will be linking to it in thedescription of this episode.
It's only about 50 pages theirreport, so I highly encourage
everyone to sit down and read it.
I think sometimes people hearacademic report and get really
scared.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But read through it.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Because even for me, who's someone who works in gun
violence prevention work, I feellike I learned so much about
different perspectives,particularly in a New York
context which I don't reallyhave any familiarity with as a
city.
I was just so interested in howyou actually went and found
interviewees and talked to youngpeople on the street, because
(07:25):
certainly if I walk up tosomeone and be like, tell me
about your gun carrying habits,people are going to be like what
is wrong with you, get out.
So I was just curious how thatdeveloped and how you even
developed the language of askingquestions in a particular way
that maybe will be different inDetroit or different in
Wilmington than in New York.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Well, one thing I could say is experience is
something you can't teach, andthat's something me and my
brother have, just like beforewe got the research skills, all
we could go off of is ourexperience and things that we've
been through in neighborhoods.
And how would we react tosomebody coming in our
neighborhood, just puttingourselves in their shoes, if
(08:03):
somebody was to come to ourneighborhood and approach us?
So first thing first is youdon't want to just go straight
dive in in somebody'sneighborhood that don't even
know who you are for real,because it ain't like we was
doing, like we was in EastHarlem and the Bronx.
I didn't get to do the Bronx,but those, like the first
projects was not from ourneighborhood, so pretty much we
outside our comfort zone.
(08:24):
So at the end of the day yougot to kind of win people over
because you can go in somebody'sneighborhood and they can quit.
It's like you have literallyabout two, three minutes to win
them over or else you can begetting kicked out of the
project.
They could be chasing you outthe projects.
So first thing we did waspretty much scope the situation
out, scope out where we want towork and try to build
relationships first, before weeven dive in and explain the
(08:47):
work.
They got to kind of have asense of who we are.
And we got to have a sense ofwho they is Because, at the end
of the day, when you're doingthis work, you want to make sure
you get in the right data aswell.
So you want to make sure you hitthat community.
You hit and you target in themain people that say, for
instance, you get the top dogand then it's easier to ripple
effects and everybody elsebecomes easier.
You know what I mean.
(09:07):
So we kind of had that approach, but it takes about two, three
days scope it out, we see who'swho.
We get to explain in it after awhile.
Take them out, feed them, sitdown, just give them a little
insight who we are.
Connect that social media small,I might could follow me on
Instagram and you might be like,oh, who's such and such, oh,
it's such and such, and thenthere you go.
(09:28):
Boom, just that small.
Now your job becomes easierjust by word of mouth, then
questioning who you are.
You know what I mean.
So I feel like buildingrelationships is the first start
you want to do and scoping outthe area and sees who's who
first see who's kind of incontrol of the situations.
Because you want to just go tothe head honcho first and make
(09:49):
your life easier, then justgoing to somebody that's a small
fry, and then when you win theprojects, now the big dog, like
who the heck you is with thislittle person and like you know
you just want to make surewhoever you with they have
respect, because at the end ofthe day you got to protect
yourself at all times first.
You know what I mean, becauseit is a dangerous.
You know you're walking insomebody in your neighborhood
and asking them to do some workand they got to actually fill
(10:11):
you or else they could just turnon you so fast.
So I feel like just buildingrelationships first.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I really want to dive in on how important it is to
just research the first studyand the second of who's doing
the work.
Right, we know about focuseddeterrence and those, how that
is structured and how theypresent themselves in the street
as formally engaged or formallya part of a group or street
(10:38):
network.
Right, which, when we'retalking about these two projects
, that doesn't apply in thestreets and the time that we are
talking about.
Right, when we're talking aboutthe streets, we talk about it
in time, now.
Right, because the streets isalways changing and I'm talking
about as far as culture, I'mtalking about the way to dress,
(10:59):
I'm talking about the language,the image, all part of the
culture and how that isrepresented.
Right, and the drill, music andrap and all that is a hip hop
is a big part of that.
It sets the tone for that,right, so when I'm expressing
this, it's having knowledge ofall these things right, of how
that time changes and how itchanges.
(11:22):
Right, or even understandinghow the streets just went from
selling drugs it's not sellingdrugs, no more, it's scamming
now.
Right, knowing how thattransition, so you don't know
how to place yourself whenyou're trying to do research
projects like this Right.
I will also say, like, the keypoint is our relationships.
Like Elise stated, yeah, we wasin our neighborhood and, but in
(11:45):
the first project we wasoutside our neighborhood.
Right, our experiences waybefore what Javante was talking
about, way before the project,is what made us suitable for the
project.
Right, I'm talking about ourstreet experience.
Our experience growing up istwo different things.
You can have a streetexperience and then you can have
a gang experience, right, andthose both come with different
(12:06):
knowledges of how people move inthe street and understanding
that, so bringing us not reallyknowing how much knowledge that
we have and really seeing it howit plays out in these two first
projects.
On getting guys from differentstreet networks, not just the
ones that we know and haverelationships with to be
(12:27):
vulnerable enough to talk aboutwhy they carry a gun I think
that's huge.
On audio recording and a spacethat they're not familiar with
or it's not the everydayenvironment, right.
Also, in the quotes, leavingthe words that they actually
saying, the cursing and how theyactually expressing themselves
(12:48):
and how they feeling is everyday.
People curse every day, so Iwas shocked to see that we was
allowed to keep that and howpeople was reading that and
doing and taking that Right andhopefully changing their
perspectives on how they viewthese things Right.
What we understand is likethese streets and these networks
are all in different states,are all different, but they all
(13:11):
the same at the same time, and Ithink that's me and Devante
really trying to explain andfigure out how we could word
that how it's differenteverywhere but it's the same at
the same time depending onwhat's happening in the culture.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean, I think what y'all have done is a huge
achievement, to be able to doall of that work and get trust
from people.
It is not easy and we want totalk a little bit more about
what you found.
But before we do even thougheverybody should go read the
report I'm wondering if youcould give just a short summary
of what two battlefields isabout, furlough listeners who
(13:46):
may not be familiar with it,just before we kind of get more
into the details.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
So I would say that the primary finding is the
prominence of fear as the driverfor gun carrying, and there are
a lot of different ways thatparticipants talked about it,
but really 75% said that theycarry because they fear they're
going to be killed, so their owndeath is the fear that drives
them carrying a gun.
Slightly less 72% feared fortheir families right, and so I
(14:13):
think that's so important,because when in the media or
kind of like popularconversations particularly I
mean historically, but it'sbubbling up again now people
talk about gun carriers, they'realways painted as dangerous,
sort of like anti-social, andit's just that's not what our
(14:33):
data found, so this fear isreally underlying it.
Then, I think another startlingfinding is that almost a third
of people say that they carrybecause they're afraid of police
, and that was not just fear ofbeing shot by the police.
So that was a very significantpart, and I will just say that
we were collecting data.
Most of our interviews cameafter the summer of 2020.
(14:55):
So that was after the murder ofGeorge Floyd and all of the
sort of uprisings around thecountry, and so that was
definitely something that peopletalked about a lot, but it was
also fear of being hassled fearof the police just kind of using
their authority or exertingcontrol or force in situations
where it just sort of seemed tocome out of nowhere or be
(15:15):
unpredictable, and so that'sanother kind of component of it
all.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And it seemed also as well to kind of fear of police
or just like government inattention that if I do need
assistance or I do, if my lifeis threatened, there's no one I
can call, necessarily in aposition of authority.
I need to be the authority orhave somebody in my neighborhood
that can step in.
It seemed like that was a bigDefinitely yeah definitely.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I mean, it's kind of like it's like the both ends so
it's, you know so over presencein all of these ways that are
potentially harmful, physicallyharmful, and then under presence
in all of these ways that couldand theoretically, you know,
police are designed, the rolethat they're designed to play,
and so and they were very clearthat sort of like it's not
everybody in our community, butit is definitely something they
(15:57):
seem to have against gangmembers.
So the perception is, ifsomething looks like a gang
incident, or there is a shootingor there is some sort of threat
that is related to gangactivity, they're not going to.
They will, kind of like,through passivity, also be
exerting harm.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
But this is when we talk about resilience right and
taking in their own hands andprotecting themselves, because
they don't feel like the peoplewho are designed to protect them
are doing so.
If anything, they're more orless harming them and they see
this on the news during thattime of the Beialen and knowing
just black history in Americaand how police institution has
(16:35):
been engaging with blackcommunities.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
I do have a thought, just one thing to add on the
police issue, which isultimately what we're talking
about, is you know some?
I think it's possible to readthe report and to see a lot of
the, even some of therecommendations that they go.
This is just anti-police andthat's really not the approach
that we're coming from.
All we're trying to do is saythis is the lived experience of
(16:58):
these young people, this is howthey understand their
relationship with police, andtrying to find a way of
interacting or a method ofengaging that's not adversarial
and is not like this sort oflike.
One upmanship of aggression isultimately going to keep young
people and police safer, and sothat really is like an essential
(17:19):
component of true communitysafety.
It really is I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That's the next thing I really do want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I want to talk to police about that.
I'm not gonna lie, I would loveto do that.
I'm just telling them, like they'all approach, why I don't
work.
I'm pretty sure they know, butI think they need to know what
can help them out.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
I think it's got to be a really complicated
experience Y'all like being like.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Like.
Do y'all want to like?
Do y'all want to be hated Like?
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Like and then think about what, what, just what?
That response to feel thatpeople hate you Makes people
defensive, and then they'regoing to be you know?
I mean, it's really such asimilar dynamic to what happens
on the street.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I just feel like it's a new time and let's move like
it's a new time.
Cops, y'all should start movingthat old, that old school way.
I think y'all should come witha new approach.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
But that's like the title alone two battlefield ops
and cops right, it's just likethat's how we know like ops and
what that terminology and thedefinition of that.
It's also like a militarydefinition as well.
But then, as our participantsas they talk about it not just
the ops that they do in theircommunity they look at cops as
(18:29):
ops right, and in thatviewership at that, I'm going to
treat you as my enemy and movein such manner because this is
what you're giving me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So there's a line in the report that says gun
carrying stands as a statementof resilience and assertion of
agency and the face of peopleand systems that threaten their
existence.
And I had never seen like anacademic study posit gun
carrying, particularly like guncarrying by young people, like
as an act of resistance orresilience, and so I thought
(19:00):
that was a really interestingway of kind of framing like it's
a fear response, like I needagency in my fear, and so I just
I think that that's a reallybeautiful, actionable thing to
make, really clear, to set up,because that changes then, I
think, like services orinterventions.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Right.
But then there's also it's likea untaught, learned behavior.
Just living in America, right.
Just knowing our secondamendment, just our cinemas
alone on just Western moviesright, terminator we can go on
for days just how violent it isand how gun food America is with
their entertainment and how wewatch this and doing it and
(19:38):
knowing how America came about.
So it's already out there forthem to already see it.
So if I see police with gunsand I know the military has guns
and how they use that indefense of themselves, why would
I not have access to a gun indefense of myself if my life is
in threat or my family andfriends?
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Yeah, and I think there is just this pervasive
sense of threat.
And so it's like and this is afinding across the first report
and the second, which is likefrom other young people and
again like this is we werecollecting data in the middle of
COVID, so you had peoplewearing masks suddenly, and it
was masks everywhere, and sothat both, I think, gave people
a sense of anonymity and it kindof opened up potential to
(20:22):
commit crime, but it also madeit uncertain who anybody was and
very hard to say who was athreat to me, who was not a
threat to me.
And so they're walking around.
This is kind of the climate.
And then there's all of thisstructural violence kind of
happening, and I thinkparticularly at that moment, but
certainly it extends bothbefore and after.
In the context of that, all ofthese things that are
(20:44):
potentially trying to take theirlives, they're saying I'm
picking up this weapon becauseI'm going to claim myself.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
In the middle of a gang war.
That was very visual throughsocial media and real music.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
And then you have the fact of being at this COVID.
Now it's a lot of moneyfloating around as well.
You know the PPEs, theunemployment.
So now you have little 14, 13year olds that have enough money
to go purchase a gun.
You know what I mean.
So it was definitely adifficult time, even doing a
study, to ask them for even $30to do an interview when they got
(21:21):
pocket-filling money now.
So that's when people now aredoing things just by who me and
Basim is.
You know what I mean.
That was like through the wholeCOVID time and it was different
.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That's why it's so important to do what you did,
because I know in the work thatJJ and I do.
Oftentimes people just want tostereotype or dehumanize people
and just sort of discount thevery real experience of being
afraid.
You're a human being, you wantto live and so being able to
give voice and, like you said,keep the authenticity of the
(21:53):
voices and the language and thevocabulary and everything is so
important In addition toidentifying people who are
carrying guns because they wereafraid there were other groups.
So for some of the other groups, how were they sharing their
attitudes and sort ofarticulating their own reasons
for carrying guns?
Speaker 4 (22:13):
And I just break all of them down.
So that's just like the four,the breakdowns of the four
typologies that we found duringthis study.
Now, people like carry forprotections, like more so the
people that's just in anenvironment where things is
happening at and you just wantto protect yourself.
You could probably be walkingwith your kids in this area.
They shoot a lot and you justwant to protect yourself.
(22:34):
So that's the carrying forprotection.
The carrying for image is moreso the person that just want to
be looked at.
He's a cool guy.
He just have a gun on him andhe want to be painted or
portrayed.
He's some gangster guy with agun.
So that's carrying for image.
Somebody that just kind offlashy when it intimidate people
.
Then you got the people that'slike the actual hustlers, the
(22:57):
actual people that get moneyJust in case.
They just want to have theirgun just because they know they
outside from getting money.
You got your robbers.
You got people that's watchingyou at all times.
So you pretty much just goingto have your gun just to protect
your hustle and protectyourself.
So that's just the hustler.
The hustler just going to carryto protect his business.
And then you have the shooter.
(23:18):
The shooter is just somebodythat he only come out to do one
thing.
He ain't going to really bevisible.
The shooter not going to reallybe visible.
He only going to see him,either to shoot or he come in a
get weed or something.
But you ain't going to see theshooter too visible.
He going to be hit and you onlygoing to see him when it's time
to do something.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Yeah, and I think the important thing is that it
might be easy to look at thoseand think, okay, well, there's
the people who carry forprotection and then all of these
other people are not caring forprotection, and I think the
important thing is, like theprotection is sort of the
umbrella category for everybody.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Everybody is protecting themselves, yeah, and
that's different.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
It's like just different ways that it shows up,
or protection from differentthings, or different directions.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
And if we really understand and really look at
them, they all talking from aprotection and safety aspect.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah, and the fear of dying or the fear of cops even
killing you or people killingyou, you know, is just fear.
You know people carry out fear.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
And so we have, we kind of talk about the first
three, so protection, image andhustle as being defensive gun
carriers.
They're sort of protectingthemselves against things.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
The shooter is sort of more an offensive carrier or
gun user.
But even that is still offenseas a form of self-defense, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, it's still coming from a place of like fear
or like perception of need.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
It's not coming from like Exactly Perception, yeah,
perception.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Like a sociopathic, like I just want to kill people,
to harm living creatures orsomething.
But I think sometimes people dothink is like a perception of
young gun carriers.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, I think that that's the really important part
of like the authenticity partof this study, that like people
one feel comfortable sharing,Like that's a vulnerable thing
to like admit you're afraid tosomeone, especially if you don't
know them Exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That is.
I think what you just stated iskey, especially in black
masculinity, of just admitting,of being afraid.
There's so many behaviors thatplays out that people label on,
but the bottom line is it's fear.
I'm scared, or I'm alone, orI'm by myself and I don't have
(25:31):
nobody, or I don't have thatsupport system or something like
that, right?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So Well, and then the answers that you got that are
in that study, though then Ithink point to and like directly
attack.
I think kind of like thestereotyping that you brought up
, especially that like sometimeswe'll hear from like gun lobby
stuff that always views it like,well, look at Chicago for gun
violence, or something that likeposition gun carriers as like
aggressive criminals and thatit's and that it is coming from
a place of like sociopathy.
(25:55):
As opposed to that, this isactually a fear response.
It's actually the same thingthat you're saying, that like
what people of pro communitiescarry, it's just the
presentation is different andyour awareness.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Exactly, it's the telling of a message and the
narrative that's put out there.
It's like how you do that,you're actually doing the same
thing, just on a larger scale.
So why criminalize me for that?
And I don't think as much asthey do criminalize for that.
I think it will always becriminalized the state of
(26:27):
America and just the history ofhow it is.
So people looking at historydon't know how to protect
themselves and how America cameabout.
They definitely going to takethat blueprint.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
I think it's also really important because I think
you're right and something thatpeople have brought up as this
like oh well, your this reportis just playing into the you
know this kind of narrative thatgun carrying is for protection
or it's just the same as it'slike the same, as you know, like
white suburban gun carriers orwhatever.
But I think something that'sreally important just to throw
(26:58):
out is that these young peopleactually live and are exposed to
a lot of violence.
So this is not unfounded fear.
This is fear that they haveseen, that they have lived.
We almost 80% had been in fiveor more physical fights.
75% had been shot up at, nothit, and 20% had that experience
more than five times.
(27:19):
80% had seen somebody shot aquarter more than five times.
I mean that's just a lot ofexposure to specifically gun
violence.
And so this is when we say it'sresilience, we're talking about
it as really in the face ofthreat.
I mean it's as though ananalogy that you know we like to
make, because I think it is inin some ways very accurate.
(27:40):
It is as though these youngpeople are living in a war zone
that is invisible to themajority of people, who are not
part of their you know theirsocial network, or part of that
little subset of American youth.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
It's a generational fear.
These are things that they havewitnessed before, they own
experience of their own familymembers and people on their
neighborhood and on a blockgoing through with police as
young kids, and I feel like it'ssad to say that they are
expecting and preparingthemselves for that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And I think that's why it's so wonderful.
Wonderful is the wrong word,because it's sad, but it's
everything we do.
Yeah, I know, to put to connectboth that fear of other
civilians, maybe, but then alsothe police as well, because it
is this thing where it's like,if the police aren't, they're
not helping you either.
So what are you supposed to do?
And just to kind of put thathuman face on it of like of
(28:34):
course you're afraid, like whywouldn't you be?
And I think that's why it's sochallenging, I guess, to people
who wanted to say, well, youshouldn't do that, to really be
like okay, well then tell mewhat I should do and sort of
give that voice to people.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
And, it's sad to say, at least talk about this.
A lot, too, is like theperception of how Black and
Brown communities perceive thepolice and how police perceive
Black and Brown communities ismore or less a military
engagement than a community orpublic safety engagement.
(29:12):
Right, what I would say is thatwhat Javante was just saying is
that what I'm grateful forthese two projects is as much as
we on the street and have talkwith police that come run down
on us I'm talking about like wehave names for the cops for our
local precinct as much as they.
(29:32):
Many times they locked us up.
They never heard us right, theynever actually heard us.
These two projects has actuallythe first time I have ever seen
that it made people listen andI'm talking about decision
makers, I'm talking aboutuniversities, I'm talking about
funders, I'm talking about othernonprofits, I'm talking about
(29:55):
public officials it gave a voicethat never had before.
So when we talked about we havebeen talking about gun violence
and gun prevention andintervention and Black and Brown
communities for years, but itwas never a voice for them to
speak.
So how could you?
You will always, you willalways come up with these
(30:16):
programs like that's in placenow.
That has no true solutionbecause you never listen to the
true problems that was going on.
This was the first time that itput it out there, so it's like
all right, in this case if wehave a, if this person or if
this thing is sick and you justyou think you know it already,
(30:38):
so you're just throwing allthese medicines, not caring, not
actually listening to thepatient, you couldn't diagnose
it, you couldn't come up with asolution.
So this here is the voicesthat's coming up out of there.
People will listen and nowyou're starting to understand
how this thing worked and whypeople do the things that they
do or are a part of the streetnetworks that they are part of
(31:02):
and help change the narrativethat was already out there that
controlled all these otherperspectives, which was kind of
sad to say, because you took thenarrative and never really
engaged with a game member ornever really engaged with a
shooter, and he really walkedaround with that opinion about
somebody that you never evenspoke to and you hold that
(31:22):
opinion to everybody who maybewear a red or blue or yellow
flag or who's even black.
So this here, I believe, isjust the start of conversations
to understand what's happeningin these different cities, where
these street networks and wherethese guns are, to understand
(31:43):
how we can even talk about asolution.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, no, and it's also everything you said was
100% right, because it's likewe're treating lung cancer but
not asking how people get sick.
But one of the things that Ifound so incredibly important
about the study and I'm soexcited that it's rolling out in
similar versions in othercities is because when you're
trying to address someone'swell-founded fear, it's really
(32:07):
different than trying to solve aproblem of an aggressive
individual.
I think that's the differencebetween looking at someone as a
scared kid and it's really sadthat a study has to humanize
people and say the things, as Ithink you've said, that
communities have been saying forgenerations.
But it's really good to have, Iguess, that research backing
that's present that says thatthis is correct.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yes, I think that's so important and I'm so glad to
be a part of it.
The state, what we were sayingwas we're brought us so close
with Elise.
I think Elise took the steps toreally dive in and really be a
part of this project and a partof me and Javante live and
really understand who we are andwhere we come from and how we
(32:47):
operate.
And it didn't just happen inthis office Like it happened on
the streets right, it happenedat like at our street network
meetings Pretty much.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Not on the clock.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
At least it's not on the clock.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Like we're dangerous, we're white women don't
supposed to be, we're a bunch ofyoung black men, we're a whole
bunch of flags.
Like she came to our homeboywho got shot in the stomach, got
arrested, so in order to turnhis funeral while we was just
gathering data, so at least tookthe necessary steps to really
(33:27):
understand who we are andunderstand the community and the
individuals did not just us,but really meeting the whole
street network, like meeting awhole gang and going on these
different blocks and makingherself visible and having a
conversation and building herown relationships with these
kids, what I think like for ourneighborhood help change their
(33:50):
perspective of how white andblack people engage to get
certain things done or changecertain perspective and
narratives, such on the lowerscales as this I think what
you're saying is so important.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Not just, no, it gets about me, but because it's
about the process and about howreally what you know people.
A lot of times there's kind oflike lip service to like we're
gonna involve the community orwe're gonna have like an
important person who's respectedcome out and kind of do the
work with the people and thenthey'll report up to whoever is
(34:24):
kind of running things and thenwe'll take that information and
we'll go do something with it.
And I think everybody, in orderto get something that has the
potential to be transformational, everybody involved has to be
open to transformation and totake risks, and you all have
taken so many, I mean risk afterrisk, after risk, really, and
(34:45):
so has the team.
I mean the team did.
Everybody is kind of going outof their comfort zone and trying
something new and puttingthemselves out there in service
to like a hope basically, thatpeople will listen and we'll
really hear what's happening.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Exactly, and also I felt like me and drop.
We went hard, but I felt likewe didn't go as hard because,
like I said, it was COVID.
Kids is hiding, kids got money,they all over the place, so it
was a complicated time.
Yeah, it was tough.
So, but the amount of kids thatwe did have an interview, that
I was feeling comfortable in ourspace, that we had and I'm
talking about different type ofgangs in one room, gangs that
(35:24):
only post to be together, folks,gds, bloods, street gangs all
in one room and just soaking upeverything we got to tell them
they feel invulnerable enough totalk to us.
We feeding them and it's justlike a safe space, like even
after they did the interviewsthey still coming.
So, just seeing the effect,that is work and that I feel
(35:45):
like of course it's me and mybrother, I swear to God.
I feel like me and him is meantto do this work, because I
don't think you will ever find,like guys, that me and him
naturally is ying, ying, ying.
Like we did so much stufftogether that successful, that
turned out I'm talking about meand my brother that turned $150
to thousands of dollars.
Like me and him did so muchstuff that had success.
(36:07):
Now that we doing it the morelegit way and now this is
becoming a success, it justfeels like it's meant you know
what I mean and it's come sonatural to us and the
neighborhood gravitate to us, sonatural to we be stressing at
least out, like at least we gotto do something on us in our
neighborhood, we got to haveaction pieces.
So now that's what I feel like.
Now we understand, you know,through the fly of doing these
(36:31):
projects, we know what we needto do, like for other
opportunities was to come.
We have like a very strategicplan.
I know for when times come, ifanything else come up, we know
exactly what to do, cause thepeople is behind us for sure.
You know what I mean.
So it's just keeping them busywhen you have them.
It's the hard part.
You know what I mean.
Being if we don't got a lot offunding, a lot of things, is
(36:53):
like only so much we could do.
We all human.
But the fact that they willingfor us to help them out and it's
a great feeling, like in thisall cause of the research, and I
wouldn't ever guess this We'dbe getting this far and touching
so many kids pause this way bydoing this work.
I wouldn't ever guess it, surewill.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I think that brings up some great.
I think it segues reallybeautifully into the report,
ends with recommendations, andso I wonder if we can, just, you
know, if you could review someof the recommendations that you
came out, you know, from thestudy.
With that, you know, maybefolks that are listening can
kind of take to heart and start,you know, thinking about how
they can operationalize thatwhere they are.
Speaker 5 (37:36):
One of the recommendations is because we
know that these things do existgun carrying fear exists within,
you know, cultural, veryspecific social and cultural
contexts in very specificneighborhoods.
One of the recommendations isfor programs who are looking to
start or for policymakers whoare looking for things to fund.
You know, really get try to tryto become comfortable, if
(38:00):
you're not already, with lookingto what the specific street
networks are.
What are those street dynamics,who are the people, who are the
major players and who has theability to influence young
people's gun carrying.
And that is often heard as ohwell, these, you know.
One thing that people have saidto us a lot is oh well, the
problem is that these big homiesare these kind of like the guys
(38:22):
who are higher up in the chainare giving the guns to the kids,
and we found nothing of that inour data.
Like nobody was.
Like somebody forced me tocarry a gun and go do something
because it's like I have a lowercriminal penalty, and so I
think if we can kind of shiftand see, start to understand
some of these relationships asmentoring relationships and not
all are, but many are and kindof explore that and get to know
(38:45):
people get to know folks thatare kind of in those hierarchies
.
People are very open actuallyto getting help if they feel
that there is, you know, genuineinterest.
And that's going to lookdifferent in every kind of
neighborhood, to be honest,because every you know, things
change significantly from placeto place.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
And it's rough, too right.
But like this is why it'simportant to know that times
change right and that's why,like today's day kids, they
really don't even.
It's like a thing going aroundwhere they don't even respect
big homies.
That's a new thing.
So it's like if you really nota certain person, they not even
(39:26):
having it.
Nowadays, like they don't, ifyou not looking a certain way or
you ain't getting no money,they really clearly like these
kids, they will not respect younow.
So you got to be really oneggshells with these kids.
Nowadays, you know they just sodifferent.
They, I don't know, they justreally don't believe in no
listening to nobody older.
Now I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
It's a thing, like it's really a thing and it's
rough to say like understandingthe mindset of the youth at that
time, at this time, and howinfluence plays a huge part.
Before even saying anything,right, I'm talking about just
being in the culture.
(40:05):
Like, what works for us isimage, image and our social
media and how we present thatright, how we present our work
and what we do on the street.
As far as the work and even wedo our block parties or anything
, if we do on something with thestreet networks, or if we even
in here in the office and wejust do our work in the office
(40:27):
and some paperwork, it's justhow you present that right, your
image, or how you dress.
Are you up to date?
Are you a trendsetter in thatneighborhood?
Right, what are you doing fromwhat people know you from doing?
Yeah, you've got credibility atthat time for doing these
things or whatnot.
Like I'm saying like back thenyeah, at that time, when me and
(40:49):
Javante was going up, it wasabout violence, so you got
respect off violence, right.
As technology grows andeverything, it started to switch
up.
The kids who couldn't beoutside and couldn't stand all
those corners and several doorsand whatnot, got into the tech
game and got into scamming.
Now they are looking at as theones, as the influencers,
(41:13):
because now they got the moneyand so now it started to switch.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
So the ones who was so it was gangster now having
money Right.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
So the ones who was had the respect or the violence
if they couldn't make thattransition and some money, they
lost that.
And now a younger one is lookedat by everybody else and might
get the title of Big Homiebecause of the money and what
he's bringing to the community.
(41:41):
So when we startedunderstanding and evolving,
thinking against, like, oh okay,it's not about violence, period
, it's not about that.
It's about who you are as yourcharacter and what you're doing
for your community.
If you say you're a part of thestreet network and this
(42:02):
community, how are you upliftingyour younger brothers and
sisters or putting them in abetter position than what you
are or how you got where you are?
So that works for us hugely,hugely, hugely.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
And that's a recommendation In other places
is that people, when we'resaying kind of tailor the
messenger?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
to the message.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
So make sure that the person delivering the message
is somebody that young peopleare gonna actually be able to
hear that message from.
And we'll respect it and kindof be willing to take the
message and then act on it.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Because these kids go off before they ever say
anything.
They're gonna look you up anddown, see what you got on, or
you even look like you doingsomething to even talk to me,
even put me in a position.
You even look like it before Ieven waste my time with it.
It's all about how you coming.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
Yeah, cause if you coming here with the next the
suits and the tides, they gonnadub you up.
They gonna be like I don'twanna talk to this police,
grandpa table guy, like, andthen you caught somebody coming
in with some you know Dior on orsomething.
They gonna gravitate to himbefore the businessman for real.
So, being that, we know thatyou gotta apply that to the kids
(43:18):
.
You know what I'm saying, Justto get the buy-in and you know
the buy-in in front of them.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
But I think when, for people who are interested in
doing similar work or trying totake, you know, in terms of
scaling something like, ifyou've got people who have a
model that works locally and tryto take it somewhere else both
the people who are taking thework out and the people that are
funding that work really needto recognize that there's gonna
take time and it's gonna takemoney and you have to like this
(43:46):
back and forth thing really hasto happen and it's an essential
and a building block foranything in the future to come
out of it.
And when we try to, you knowcause, a lot of times budgets
don't allow and that's notreally, you know, it's not
anybody's fault, but it's justthe way that kind of especially
research is constructed.
you know it's like you havethree months and this limited
(44:07):
budget to do your planning phaseand then boom, you gotta get in
there and you just gotta get itdone.
And this is just.
It's a relational thing as muchas anything else and you have
to leave the time and space forthat Important but this piece
about specifically for the younggun carriers, is recognizing
the importance of centrality ofhealing and creating spaces for
them to address and kind of workwith and work through the
(44:29):
extensive trauma that they'vebeen exposed to.
And so if we're having you knowprograms or initiatives like
certainly they need jobs, likeno one's gonna say people don't
need jobs, they 100% need jobs.
But if those employmentopportunities or the job
training programs or any ofthese things don't recognize the
need for this healing piece tobe part of it, those young
(44:53):
people are not gonna be part ofthat job or they're not gonna be
part of that training programthe vast majority anyway in a
month, six months, a year,because there are all sorts of
things that can kind of come upor come out that a lot of times
these programs just aren't readyfor or they're not built to
kind of absorb.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah, elise talked about this a lot.
It's like nonprofits orcommunity-based organizations
when they are working with gangmembers.
It's like they really want tobring you in and sit down and
like try to separate you fromthat of what you are part of,
not knowing the true context ofwhy he's a part of that and it's
(45:35):
really for safety andprotection on the things that's
happening in his neighborhood.
So that to me that's notrealistic as a first approach
and to intervention at all.
What we have talked about andwhat we have learned and also
witnessed as gangs are often inthe primary source of trust and
alliance for members Attemptingto treat young people as
(45:58):
individuals outside thesenetworks and notice a social and
cultural central access to theBlack youth experience at urban
settings.
By partnering with these gangs,program members will be
authorized making it safe forgun carriers to be honest about
what they experience.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
And that means they're gonna be honest and
they're gonna actually say, okay, here are the things that I'm
facing, here's the stuff thatI'm dealing with.
Can I get some help?
And so it's like if they'reafraid that they can't share,
because the trauma a lot oftimes is involved in the street
network or it might.
They're afraid that they'regonna be snitching or
implicating a lot of times andso they're just gonna shut down.
(46:35):
You're outside, you're not partof this, I'm not gonna talk to
you.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Well, and it's really , I mean, good, isn't even big
enough of a word, but I thinkit's really important that the
folks that you talk to one feltheard and trusted you, and that
also that studies like this areincreasing and separating out to
other cities, because I thinkthis is reports like this are so
important for figuring out howwe, as the folks that work in
gun violence prevention, canhelp shift the narratives around
(47:01):
why and how gun violence ishappening.
And so, on behalf of Kelly andmyself, I just wanna thank you
all for giving us your timetoday to talk about this
important work, and, hey, I'llgive a shout out for you.
If listeners wanna learn more,you can read the report it's
linked in the description ofthis episode or check out your
website, innovatingjusticeorg.
Hey, wanna share with thepodcast.
(47:24):
Listeners can now get in touchwith us here at Red Blue and
Brady via phone or text message.
Simply call or text us at480-744-3452 with your thoughts.
Questions, concerns, ideas, catpictures, whatever.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thanks for listening.
As always, brady's life savingwork in Congress, the courts and
communities across the countryis made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Bradyor how to get involved in the
fight against gun violence,please like and subscribe to the
podcast.
Get in touch with us atbradyunitedorg or on social at
Brady Buzz.
Be brave and remember.
(48:01):
Take action, not sides.
Upbeat music playing.
This is the legal disclaimer, where I tell you
that the views, thoughts andopinion shared on this podcast
belong solely to our guests andhosts and not necessarily Brady
or Brady's affiliates.
Please note this podcastcontains discussions of violence
that some people may finddisturbing.
It's okay, we find itdisturbing too.
Hey, everybody, welcome back toanother episode of Red, blue
(00:44):
and Brady.
I'm one of your hosts, jj.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm Kelly, your other host.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
And Kelly and I are sitting down with a full panel
today to discuss, honestly, anamazing publication.
It's so rare, kelly, that weget something that crosses our
table where we're like oh my God, the methods are as interesting
and important as the findings.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and I also feel like if you're
listening to this podcast oryou've been paying attention to
what's going on in the lastmentioned at all, then you might
get the perception sometimesthat there's this binary between
working in the community orworking in a research and policy
space, and the panel that wehave today really just totally
(01:27):
shows that that is a falsebinary.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So we were given this report for the Center for
Justice Innovation and titledTwo Battlefields Ops Cops and
NYC Youth Gun Culture, and wewent I mean immediately I'm
intrigued by that title thatlooked at more than 100 young
gun carriers in Crown Heights,brooklyn, and we were just so
fortunate that three out of thefour authors, elise, basim and
(01:50):
Givante, were able to sit downwith us and explain.
I mean one, I needed to knowwhat Ops was.
I'm not cool, kelly, I don'tknow slang, but so what does it
mean that these two battlefieldsthat youth and NYC who carry
guns, are facing people inopposition to themselves and
police?
And what does that finding meanfor folks who are trying to
(02:11):
fight against gun violence?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, so for defense.
We know slang.
It just might be from like the90s, but that's still a thing.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm Basim Spade.
I've been with CJI since 2012,but as a SOS, save Our Streets
and the Cure Violence part, as aviolence interrupter and
outreach worker.
I did not recently moved intolike five years ago, 2018, and
the Research and PolicyDepartment here at CJI and
joined the first researchproject that we did and there I
(02:45):
was started off as securitywatching that academic team as
they do this research on gangsand guns and the Bronx.
Then I eventually moved up andbecame a researcher and learned
all these research skills andthese methods and there I was
able to move up to a supervisorrole and I'm bored and want best
friend here, givante.
(03:05):
I bore him on because we grewup together in the streets and I
knew that he's capable oflearning these research methods
and skills and bringing adifferent, I'd say, skill set to
the work, especially to theproject that we was doing and
the project that we're about tospeak about and as Jews, and our
credibility and our respect andthe relationships that we had
to be able to gain this datathat we have here today.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
How you doing.
I'm Givante Alexander.
I've been at CJI for five yearsnow.
I'm a community researchcoordinator.
Yeah, and I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
Hi, my name is Elise White.
I'm the Interim Director ofResearch and Policy here at the
Center and I also oversee all ofour community-based research
and participatory andparticipatory action projects.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And you all kind of touched on it already, but we're
talking today.
You've done a lot, but we'retalking today about the project
to battlefields, ops, cops andNYC youth gun culture, and we're
going to talk all about ittoday.
But before we get into it, I'mjust wondering if you could tell
us how it started.
What was the seed of theproject?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Sure, I can give a little background.
So the same thing that Ialready mentioned.
We did a project together fromabout 2018, 2017 to 2020.
It was funded by the NationalInstitute of Justice and it was
originally a much more kind ofstraight up and down traditional
research project.
So it had a traditional kind ofacademic team, a traditionally
(04:31):
trained folks and pretty quicklyinto the project we just were
not getting the traction that weneeded to get and actually none
of us were on the project atthat point.
But through a variety of things,I took over kind of supervising
it and we quickly realized thatwe needed folks who had
connections, who understood theculture, who understood kind of
(04:53):
how street culture functions, inorder to get people to be
willing to talk at all about guncarrying.
Because you know, a lot of timespeople will bring it up as part
of other projects or whenyou're focused elsewhere.
But when you're going directlyin into neighborhoods asking
about specifically people's guncarrying behavior, it's just a
very different dynamic andpeople are understandably very
(05:15):
nervous.
They're skeptical, they don'ttrust it, they don't understand
what the point you know likewhere it's going, they don't
know who any of us are andbecause a lot of what they're
talking about gets close tobeing kind of implicating
potentially for themselves orpeople that they know they just
they're not going to do it, andso that project became a
participatory project, what wecall participatory project,
meaning that the team who's inthe field collecting the data
(05:36):
has the lived experience orshares a lot in common with the
folks that they're interviewingand that they're working with.
But I will say that when we were, as they were in the field,
kind of as we were wrapping upthe data collection, one of the
real frustrations was that therewasn't a give back to the
community, something directlythat people who participated in
the study or who were kind ofwatching it roll out could get
(05:58):
and kind of walk away with.
And there were a lot of findingsfrom that study that we thought
were really rich and reallycompelling and we wanted to dig
deeper.
You know, with all research itwill undoubtedly yield
additional questions that youwant to know more about.
So there was that piece, butthen we also wanted to weave in
an action piece, and so thisproject to battlefields is
looking specifically at thesocial and cultural context for
(06:21):
youth gun carrying and is a partof a four city project.
So we're looking at New York'sWilmington, delaware where my
co-principal investigator is,and then Detroit and
Philadelphia, and I mean each ofthose cities is so unique in
terms of how there are a lot ofsimilarities and a lot of
differences.
And so we're in the end stagesof data and analysis and those
(06:46):
reports.
Each city is going to get itsown report.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And it's really.
I will be linking to it in thedescription of this episode.
It's only about 50 pages theirreport, so I highly encourage
everyone to sit down and read it.
I think sometimes people hearacademic report and get really
scared.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But read through it.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Because even for me, who's someone who works in gun
violence prevention work, I feellike I learned so much about
different perspectives,particularly in a New York
context which I don't reallyhave any familiarity with as a
city.
I was just so interested in howyou actually went and found
interviewees and talked to youngpeople on the street, because
(07:25):
certainly if I walk up tosomeone and be like, tell me
about your gun carrying habits,people are going to be like what
is wrong with you, get out.
So I was just curious how thatdeveloped and how you even
developed the language of askingquestions in a particular way
that maybe will be different inDetroit or different in
Wilmington than in New York.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Well, one thing I could say is experience is
something you can't teach, andthat's something me and my
brother have, just like beforewe got the research skills, all
we could go off of is ourexperience and things that we've
been through in neighborhoods.
And how would we react tosomebody coming in our
neighborhood, just puttingourselves in their shoes, if
(08:03):
somebody was to come to ourneighborhood and approach us?
So first thing first is youdon't want to just go straight
dive in in somebody'sneighborhood that don't even
know who you are for real,because it ain't like we was
doing, like we was in EastHarlem and the Bronx.
I didn't get to do the Bronx,but those, like the first
projects was not from ourneighborhood, so pretty much we
outside our comfort zone.
(08:24):
So at the end of the day yougot to kind of win people over
because you can go in somebody'sneighborhood and they can quit.
It's like you have literallyabout two, three minutes to win
them over or else you can begetting kicked out of the
project.
They could be chasing you outthe projects.
So first thing we did waspretty much scope the situation
out, scope out where we want towork and try to build
relationships first, before weeven dive in and explain the
(08:47):
work.
They got to kind of have asense of who we are.
And we got to have a sense ofwho they is Because, at the end
of the day, when you're doingthis work, you want to make sure
you get in the right data aswell.
So you want to make sure you hitthat community.
You hit and you target in themain people that say, for
instance, you get the top dogand then it's easier to ripple
effects and everybody elsebecomes easier.
You know what I mean.
(09:07):
So we kind of had that approach, but it takes about two, three
days scope it out, we see who'swho.
We get to explain in it after awhile.
Take them out, feed them, sitdown, just give them a little
insight who we are.
Connect that social media small,I might could follow me on
Instagram and you might be like,oh, who's such and such, oh,
it's such and such, and thenthere you go.
(09:28):
Boom, just that small.
Now your job becomes easierjust by word of mouth, then
questioning who you are.
You know what I mean.
So I feel like buildingrelationships is the first start
you want to do and scoping outthe area and sees who's who
first see who's kind of incontrol of the situations.
Because you want to just go tothe head honcho first and make
(09:49):
your life easier, then justgoing to somebody that's a small
fry, and then when you win theprojects, now the big dog, like
who the heck you is with thislittle person and like you know
you just want to make surewhoever you with they have
respect, because at the end ofthe day you got to protect
yourself at all times first.
You know what I mean, becauseit is a dangerous.
You know you're walking insomebody in your neighborhood
and asking them to do some workand they got to actually fill
(10:11):
you or else they could just turnon you so fast.
So I feel like just buildingrelationships first.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I really want to dive in on how important it is to
just research the first studyand the second of who's doing
the work.
Right, we know about focuseddeterrence and those, how that
is structured and how theypresent themselves in the street
as formally engaged or formallya part of a group or street
(10:38):
network.
Right, which, when we'retalking about these two projects
, that doesn't apply in thestreets and the time that we are
talking about.
Right, when we're talking aboutthe streets, we talk about it
in time, now.
Right, because the streets isalways changing and I'm talking
about as far as culture, I'mtalking about the way to dress,
(10:59):
I'm talking about the language,the image, all part of the
culture and how that isrepresented.
Right, and the drill, music andrap and all that is a hip hop
is a big part of that.
It sets the tone for that,right, so when I'm expressing
this, it's having knowledge ofall these things right, of how
that time changes and how itchanges.
(11:22):
Right, or even understandinghow the streets just went from
selling drugs it's not sellingdrugs, no more, it's scamming
now.
Right, knowing how thattransition, so you don't know
how to place yourself whenyou're trying to do research
projects like this Right.
I will also say, like, the keypoint is our relationships.
Like Elise stated, yeah, we wasin our neighborhood and, but in
(11:45):
the first project we wasoutside our neighborhood.
Right, our experiences waybefore what Javante was talking
about, way before the project,is what made us suitable for the
project.
Right, I'm talking about ourstreet experience.
Our experience growing up istwo different things.
You can have a streetexperience and then you can have
a gang experience, right, andthose both come with different
(12:06):
knowledges of how people move inthe street and understanding
that, so bringing us not reallyknowing how much knowledge that
we have and really seeing it howit plays out in these two first
projects.
On getting guys from differentstreet networks, not just the
ones that we know and haverelationships with to be
(12:27):
vulnerable enough to talk aboutwhy they carry a gun I think
that's huge.
On audio recording and a spacethat they're not familiar with
or it's not the everydayenvironment, right.
Also, in the quotes, leavingthe words that they actually
saying, the cursing and how theyactually expressing themselves
(12:48):
and how they feeling is everyday.
People curse every day, so Iwas shocked to see that we was
allowed to keep that and howpeople was reading that and
doing and taking that Right andhopefully changing their
perspectives on how they viewthese things Right.
What we understand is likethese streets and these networks
are all in different states,are all different, but they all
(13:11):
the same at the same time, and Ithink that's me and Devante
really trying to explain andfigure out how we could word
that how it's differenteverywhere but it's the same at
the same time depending onwhat's happening in the culture.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean, I think what y'all have done is a huge
achievement, to be able to doall of that work and get trust
from people.
It is not easy and we want totalk a little bit more about
what you found.
But before we do even thougheverybody should go read the
report I'm wondering if youcould give just a short summary
of what two battlefields isabout, furlough listeners who
(13:46):
may not be familiar with it,just before we kind of get more
into the details.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
So I would say that the primary finding is the
prominence of fear as the driverfor gun carrying, and there are
a lot of different ways thatparticipants talked about it,
but really 75% said that theycarry because they fear they're
going to be killed, so their owndeath is the fear that drives
them carrying a gun.
Slightly less 72% feared fortheir families right, and so I
(14:13):
think that's so important,because when in the media or
kind of like popularconversations particularly I
mean historically, but it'sbubbling up again now people
talk about gun carriers, they'realways painted as dangerous,
sort of like anti-social, andit's just that's not what our
(14:33):
data found, so this fear isreally underlying it.
Then, I think another startlingfinding is that almost a third
of people say that they carrybecause they're afraid of police
, and that was not just fear ofbeing shot by the police.
So that was a very significantpart, and I will just say that
we were collecting data.
Most of our interviews cameafter the summer of 2020.
(14:55):
So that was after the murder ofGeorge Floyd and all of the
sort of uprisings around thecountry, and so that was
definitely something that peopletalked about a lot, but it was
also fear of being hassled fearof the police just kind of using
their authority or exertingcontrol or force in situations
where it just sort of seemed tocome out of nowhere or be
(15:15):
unpredictable, and so that'sanother kind of component of it
all.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And it seemed also as well to kind of fear of police
or just like government inattention that if I do need
assistance or I do, if my lifeis threatened, there's no one I
can call, necessarily in aposition of authority.
I need to be the authority orhave somebody in my neighborhood
that can step in.
It seemed like that was a bigDefinitely yeah definitely.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I mean, it's kind of like it's like the both ends so
it's, you know so over presencein all of these ways that are
potentially harmful, physicallyharmful, and then under presence
in all of these ways that couldand theoretically, you know,
police are designed, the rolethat they're designed to play,
and so and they were very clearthat sort of like it's not
everybody in our community, butit is definitely something they
(15:57):
seem to have against gangmembers.
So the perception is, ifsomething looks like a gang
incident, or there is a shootingor there is some sort of threat
that is related to gangactivity, they're not going to.
They will, kind of like,through passivity, also be
exerting harm.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
But this is when we talk about resilience right and
taking in their own hands andprotecting themselves, because
they don't feel like the peoplewho are designed to protect them
are doing so.
If anything, they're more orless harming them and they see
this on the news during thattime of the Beialen and knowing
just black history in Americaand how police institution has
(16:35):
been engaging with blackcommunities.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
I do have a thought, just one thing to add on the
police issue, which isultimately what we're talking
about, is you know some?
I think it's possible to readthe report and to see a lot of
the, even some of therecommendations that they go.
This is just anti-police andthat's really not the approach
that we're coming from.
All we're trying to do is saythis is the lived experience of
(16:58):
these young people, this is howthey understand their
relationship with police, andtrying to find a way of
interacting or a method ofengaging that's not adversarial
and is not like this sort oflike.
One upmanship of aggression isultimately going to keep young
people and police safer, and sothat really is like an essential
(17:19):
component of true communitysafety.
It really is I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
That's the next thing I really do want to do.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I want to talk to police about that.
I'm not gonna lie, I would loveto do that.
I'm just telling them, like they'all approach, why I don't
work.
I'm pretty sure they know, butI think they need to know what
can help them out.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
I think it's got to be a really complicated
experience Y'all like being like.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Like.
Do y'all want to like?
Do y'all want to be hated Like?
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Like and then think about what, what, just what?
That response to feel thatpeople hate you Makes people
defensive, and then they'regoing to be you know?
I mean, it's really such asimilar dynamic to what happens
on the street.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I just feel like it's a new time and let's move like
it's a new time.
Cops, y'all should start movingthat old, that old school way.
I think y'all should come witha new approach.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
But that's like the title alone two battlefield ops
and cops right, it's just likethat's how we know like ops and
what that terminology and thedefinition of that.
It's also like a militarydefinition as well.
But then, as our participantsas they talk about it not just
the ops that they do in theircommunity they look at cops as
(18:29):
ops right, and in thatviewership at that, I'm going to
treat you as my enemy and movein such manner because this is
what you're giving me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So there's a line in the report that says gun
carrying stands as a statementof resilience and assertion of
agency and the face of peopleand systems that threaten their
existence.
And I had never seen like anacademic study posit gun
carrying, particularly like guncarrying by young people, like
as an act of resistance orresilience, and so I thought
(19:00):
that was a really interestingway of kind of framing like it's
a fear response, like I needagency in my fear, and so I just
I think that that's a reallybeautiful, actionable thing to
make, really clear, to set up,because that changes then, I
think, like services orinterventions.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Right.
But then there's also it's likea untaught, learned behavior.
Just living in America, right.
Just knowing our secondamendment, just our cinemas
alone on just Western moviesright, terminator we can go on
for days just how violent it isand how gun food America is with
their entertainment and how wewatch this and doing it and
(19:38):
knowing how America came about.
So it's already out there forthem to already see it.
So if I see police with gunsand I know the military has guns
and how they use that indefense of themselves, why would
I not have access to a gun indefense of myself if my life is
in threat or my family andfriends?
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Yeah, and I think there is just this pervasive
sense of threat.
And so it's like and this is afinding across the first report
and the second, which is likefrom other young people and
again like this is we werecollecting data in the middle of
COVID, so you had peoplewearing masks suddenly, and it
was masks everywhere, and sothat both, I think, gave people
a sense of anonymity and it kindof opened up potential to
(20:22):
commit crime, but it also madeit uncertain who anybody was and
very hard to say who was athreat to me, who was not a
threat to me.
And so they're walking around.
This is kind of the climate.
And then there's all of thisstructural violence kind of
happening, and I thinkparticularly at that moment, but
certainly it extends bothbefore and after.
In the context of that, all ofthese things that are
(20:44):
potentially trying to take theirlives, they're saying I'm
picking up this weapon becauseI'm going to claim myself.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
In the middle of a gang war.
That was very visual throughsocial media and real music.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
And then you have the fact of being at this COVID.
Now it's a lot of moneyfloating around as well.
You know the PPEs, theunemployment.
So now you have little 14, 13year olds that have enough money
to go purchase a gun.
You know what I mean.
So it was definitely adifficult time, even doing a
study, to ask them for even $30to do an interview when they got
(21:21):
pocket-filling money now.
So that's when people now aredoing things just by who me and
Basim is.
You know what I mean.
That was like through the wholeCOVID time and it was different
.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
That's why it's so important to do what you did,
because I know in the work thatJJ and I do.
Oftentimes people just want tostereotype or dehumanize people
and just sort of discount thevery real experience of being
afraid.
You're a human being, you wantto live and so being able to
give voice and, like you said,keep the authenticity of the
(21:53):
voices and the language and thevocabulary and everything is so
important In addition toidentifying people who are
carrying guns because they wereafraid there were other groups.
So for some of the other groups, how were they sharing their
attitudes and sort ofarticulating their own reasons
for carrying guns?
Speaker 4 (22:13):
And I just break all of them down.
So that's just like the four,the breakdowns of the four
typologies that we found duringthis study.
Now, people like carry forprotections, like more so the
people that's just in anenvironment where things is
happening at and you just wantto protect yourself.
You could probably be walkingwith your kids in this area.
They shoot a lot and you justwant to protect yourself.
(22:34):
So that's the carrying forprotection.
The carrying for image is moreso the person that just want to
be looked at.
He's a cool guy.
He just have a gun on him andhe want to be painted or
portrayed.
He's some gangster guy with agun.
So that's carrying for image.
Somebody that just kind offlashy when it intimidate people
.
Then you got the people that'slike the actual hustlers, the
(22:57):
actual people that get moneyJust in case.
They just want to have theirgun just because they know they
outside from getting money.
You got your robbers.
You got people that's watchingyou at all times.
So you pretty much just goingto have your gun just to protect
your hustle and protectyourself.
So that's just the hustler.
The hustler just going to carryto protect his business.
And then you have the shooter.
(23:18):
The shooter is just somebodythat he only come out to do one
thing.
He ain't going to really bevisible.
The shooter not going to reallybe visible.
He only going to see him,either to shoot or he come in a
get weed or something.
But you ain't going to see theshooter too visible.
He going to be hit and you onlygoing to see him when it's time
to do something.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
Yeah, and I think the important thing is that it
might be easy to look at thoseand think, okay, well, there's
the people who carry forprotection and then all of these
other people are not caring forprotection, and I think the
important thing is, like theprotection is sort of the
umbrella category for everybody.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Everybody is protecting themselves, yeah, and
that's different.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
It's like just different ways that it shows up,
or protection from differentthings, or different directions.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
And if we really understand and really look at
them, they all talking from aprotection and safety aspect.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah, and the fear of dying or the fear of cops even
killing you or people killingyou, you know, is just fear.
You know people carry out fear.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
And so we have, we kind of talk about the first
three, so protection, image andhustle as being defensive gun
carriers.
They're sort of protectingthemselves against things.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
The shooter is sort of more an offensive carrier or
gun user.
But even that is still offenseas a form of self-defense, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, it's still coming from a place of like fear
or like perception of need.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
It's not coming from like Exactly Perception, yeah,
perception.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Like a sociopathic, like I just want to kill people,
to harm living creatures orsomething.
But I think sometimes people dothink is like a perception of
young gun carriers.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Well, I think that that's the really important part
of like the authenticity partof this study, that like people
one feel comfortable sharing,Like that's a vulnerable thing
to like admit you're afraid tosomeone, especially if you don't
know them Exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
That is.
I think what you just stated iskey, especially in black
masculinity, of just admitting,of being afraid.
There's so many behaviors thatplays out that people label on,
but the bottom line is it's fear.
I'm scared, or I'm alone, orI'm by myself and I don't have
(25:31):
nobody, or I don't have thatsupport system or something like
that, right?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So Well, and then the answers that you got that are
in that study, though then Ithink point to and like directly
attack.
I think kind of like thestereotyping that you brought up
, especially that like sometimeswe'll hear from like gun lobby
stuff that always views it like,well, look at Chicago for gun
violence, or something that likeposition gun carriers as like
aggressive criminals and thatit's and that it is coming from
a place of like sociopathy.
(25:55):
As opposed to that, this isactually a fear response.
It's actually the same thingthat you're saying, that like
what people of pro communitiescarry, it's just the
presentation is different andyour awareness.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Exactly, it's the telling of a message and the
narrative that's put out there.
It's like how you do that,you're actually doing the same
thing, just on a larger scale.
So why criminalize me for that?
And I don't think as much asthey do criminalize for that.
I think it will always becriminalized the state of
(26:27):
America and just the history ofhow it is.
So people looking at historydon't know how to protect
themselves and how America cameabout.
They definitely going to takethat blueprint.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
I think it's also really important because I think
you're right and something thatpeople have brought up as this
like oh well, your this reportis just playing into the you
know this kind of narrative thatgun carrying is for protection
or it's just the same as it'slike the same, as you know, like
white suburban gun carriers orwhatever.
But I think something that'sreally important just to throw
(26:58):
out is that these young peopleactually live and are exposed to
a lot of violence.
So this is not unfounded fear.
This is fear that they haveseen, that they have lived.
We almost 80% had been in fiveor more physical fights.
75% had been shot up at, nothit, and 20% had that experience
more than five times.
(27:19):
80% had seen somebody shot aquarter more than five times.
I mean that's just a lot ofexposure to specifically gun
violence.
And so this is when we say it'sresilience, we're talking about
it as really in the face ofthreat.
I mean it's as though ananalogy that you know we like to
make, because I think it is inin some ways very accurate.
(27:40):
It is as though these youngpeople are living in a war zone
that is invisible to themajority of people, who are not
part of their you know theirsocial network, or part of that
little subset of American youth.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
It's a generational fear.
These are things that they havewitnessed before, they own
experience of their own familymembers and people on their
neighborhood and on a blockgoing through with police as
young kids, and I feel like it'ssad to say that they are
expecting and preparingthemselves for that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And I think that's why it's so wonderful.
Wonderful is the wrong word,because it's sad, but it's
everything we do.
Yeah, I know, to put to connectboth that fear of other
civilians, maybe, but then alsothe police as well, because it
is this thing where it's like,if the police aren't, they're
not helping you either.
So what are you supposed to do?
And just to kind of put thathuman face on it of like of
(28:34):
course you're afraid, like whywouldn't you be?
And I think that's why it's sochallenging, I guess, to people
who wanted to say, well, youshouldn't do that, to really be
like okay, well then tell mewhat I should do and sort of
give that voice to people.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
And, it's sad to say, at least talk about this.
A lot, too, is like theperception of how Black and
Brown communities perceive thepolice and how police perceive
Black and Brown communities ismore or less a military
engagement than a community orpublic safety engagement.
(29:12):
Right, what I would say is thatwhat Javante was just saying is
that what I'm grateful forthese two projects is as much as
we on the street and have talkwith police that come run down
on us I'm talking about like wehave names for the cops for our
local precinct as much as they.
(29:32):
Many times they locked us up.
They never heard us right, theynever actually heard us.
These two projects has actuallythe first time I have ever seen
that it made people listen andI'm talking about decision
makers, I'm talking aboutuniversities, I'm talking about
funders, I'm talking about othernonprofits, I'm talking about
(29:55):
public officials it gave a voicethat never had before.
So when we talked about we havebeen talking about gun violence
and gun prevention andintervention and Black and Brown
communities for years, but itwas never a voice for them to
speak.
So how could you?
You will always, you willalways come up with these
(30:16):
programs like that's in placenow.
That has no true solutionbecause you never listen to the
true problems that was going on.
This was the first time that itput it out there, so it's like
all right, in this case if wehave a, if this person or if
this thing is sick and you justyou think you know it already,
(30:38):
so you're just throwing allthese medicines, not caring, not
actually listening to thepatient, you couldn't diagnose
it, you couldn't come up with asolution.
So this here is the voicesthat's coming up out of there.
People will listen and nowyou're starting to understand
how this thing worked and whypeople do the things that they
do or are a part of the streetnetworks that they are part of
(31:02):
and help change the narrativethat was already out there that
controlled all these otherperspectives, which was kind of
sad to say, because you took thenarrative and never really
engaged with a game member ornever really engaged with a
shooter, and he really walkedaround with that opinion about
somebody that you never evenspoke to and you hold that
(31:22):
opinion to everybody who maybewear a red or blue or yellow
flag or who's even black.
So this here, I believe, isjust the start of conversations
to understand what's happeningin these different cities, where
these street networks and wherethese guns are, to understand
(31:43):
how we can even talk about asolution.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, no, and it's also everything you said was
100% right, because it's likewe're treating lung cancer but
not asking how people get sick.
But one of the things that Ifound so incredibly important
about the study and I'm soexcited that it's rolling out in
similar versions in othercities is because when you're
trying to address someone'swell-founded fear, it's really
(32:07):
different than trying to solve aproblem of an aggressive
individual.
I think that's the differencebetween looking at someone as a
scared kid and it's really sadthat a study has to humanize
people and say the things, as Ithink you've said, that
communities have been saying forgenerations.
But it's really good to have, Iguess, that research backing
that's present that says thatthis is correct.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yes, I think that's so important and I'm so glad to
be a part of it.
The state, what we were sayingwas we're brought us so close
with Elise.
I think Elise took the steps toreally dive in and really be a
part of this project and a partof me and Javante live and
really understand who we are andwhere we come from and how we
(32:47):
operate.
And it didn't just happen inthis office Like it happened on
the streets right, it happenedat like at our street network
meetings Pretty much.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Not on the clock.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
At least it's not on the clock.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Like we're dangerous, we're white women don't
supposed to be, we're a bunch ofyoung black men, we're a whole
bunch of flags.
Like she came to our homeboywho got shot in the stomach, got
arrested, so in order to turnhis funeral while we was just
gathering data, so at least tookthe necessary steps to really
(33:27):
understand who we are andunderstand the community and the
individuals did not just us,but really meeting the whole
street network, like meeting awhole gang and going on these
different blocks and makingherself visible and having a
conversation and building herown relationships with these
kids, what I think like for ourneighborhood help change their
(33:50):
perspective of how white andblack people engage to get
certain things done or changecertain perspective and
narratives, such on the lowerscales as this I think what
you're saying is so important.
Speaker 5 (34:03):
Not just, no, it gets about me, but because it's
about the process and about howreally what you know people.
A lot of times there's kind oflike lip service to like we're
gonna involve the community orwe're gonna have like an
important person who's respectedcome out and kind of do the
work with the people and thenthey'll report up to whoever is
(34:24):
kind of running things and thenwe'll take that information and
we'll go do something with it.
And I think everybody, in orderto get something that has the
potential to be transformational, everybody involved has to be
open to transformation and totake risks, and you all have
taken so many, I mean risk afterrisk, after risk, really, and
(34:45):
so has the team.
I mean the team did.
Everybody is kind of going outof their comfort zone and trying
something new and puttingthemselves out there in service
to like a hope basically, thatpeople will listen and we'll
really hear what's happening.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Exactly, and also I felt like me and drop.
We went hard, but I felt likewe didn't go as hard because,
like I said, it was COVID.
Kids is hiding, kids got money,they all over the place, so it
was a complicated time.
Yeah, it was tough.
So, but the amount of kids thatwe did have an interview, that
I was feeling comfortable in ourspace, that we had and I'm
talking about different type ofgangs in one room, gangs that
(35:24):
only post to be together, folks,gds, bloods, street gangs all
in one room and just soaking upeverything we got to tell them
they feel invulnerable enough totalk to us.
We feeding them and it's justlike a safe space, like even
after they did the interviewsthey still coming.
So, just seeing the effect,that is work and that I feel
(35:45):
like of course it's me and mybrother, I swear to God.
I feel like me and him is meantto do this work, because I
don't think you will ever find,like guys, that me and him
naturally is ying, ying, ying.
Like we did so much stufftogether that successful, that
turned out I'm talking about meand my brother that turned $150
to thousands of dollars.
Like me and him did so muchstuff that had success.
(36:07):
Now that we doing it the morelegit way and now this is
becoming a success, it justfeels like it's meant you know
what I mean and it's come sonatural to us and the
neighborhood gravitate to us, sonatural to we be stressing at
least out, like at least we gotto do something on us in our
neighborhood, we got to haveaction pieces.
So now that's what I feel like.
Now we understand, you know,through the fly of doing these
(36:31):
projects, we know what we needto do, like for other
opportunities was to come.
We have like a very strategicplan.
I know for when times come, ifanything else come up, we know
exactly what to do, cause thepeople is behind us for sure.
You know what I mean.
So it's just keeping them busywhen you have them.
It's the hard part.
You know what I mean.
Being if we don't got a lot offunding, a lot of things, is
(36:53):
like only so much we could do.
We all human.
But the fact that they willingfor us to help them out and it's
a great feeling, like in thisall cause of the research, and I
wouldn't ever guess this We'dbe getting this far and touching
so many kids pause this way bydoing this work.
I wouldn't ever guess it, surewill.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I think that brings up some great.
I think it segues reallybeautifully into the report,
ends with recommendations, andso I wonder if we can, just, you
know, if you could review someof the recommendations that you
came out, you know, from thestudy.
With that, you know, maybefolks that are listening can
kind of take to heart and start,you know, thinking about how
they can operationalize thatwhere they are.
Speaker 5 (37:36):
One of the recommendations is because we
know that these things do existgun carrying fear exists within,
you know, cultural, veryspecific social and cultural
contexts in very specificneighborhoods.
One of the recommendations isfor programs who are looking to
start or for policymakers whoare looking for things to fund.
You know, really get try to tryto become comfortable, if
(38:00):
you're not already, with lookingto what the specific street
networks are.
What are those street dynamics,who are the people, who are the
major players and who has theability to influence young
people's gun carrying.
And that is often heard as ohwell, these, you know.
One thing that people have saidto us a lot is oh well, the
problem is that these big homiesare these kind of like the guys
(38:22):
who are higher up in the chainare giving the guns to the kids,
and we found nothing of that inour data.
Like nobody was.
Like somebody forced me tocarry a gun and go do something
because it's like I have a lowercriminal penalty, and so I
think if we can kind of shiftand see, start to understand
some of these relationships asmentoring relationships and not
all are, but many are and kindof explore that and get to know
(38:45):
people get to know folks thatare kind of in those hierarchies
.
People are very open actuallyto getting help if they feel
that there is, you know, genuineinterest.
And that's going to lookdifferent in every kind of
neighborhood, to be honest,because every you know, things
change significantly from placeto place.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
And it's rough, too right.
But like this is why it'simportant to know that times
change right and that's why,like today's day kids, they
really don't even.
It's like a thing going aroundwhere they don't even respect
big homies.
That's a new thing.
So it's like if you really nota certain person, they not even
(39:26):
having it.
Nowadays, like they don't, ifyou not looking a certain way or
you ain't getting no money,they really clearly like these
kids, they will not respect younow.
So you got to be really oneggshells with these kids.
Nowadays, you know they just sodifferent.
They, I don't know, they justreally don't believe in no
listening to nobody older.
Now I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
It's a thing, like it's really a thing and it's
rough to say like understandingthe mindset of the youth at that
time, at this time, and howinfluence plays a huge part.
Before even saying anything,right, I'm talking about just
being in the culture.
(40:05):
Like, what works for us isimage, image and our social
media and how we present thatright, how we present our work
and what we do on the street.
As far as the work and even wedo our block parties or anything
, if we do on something with thestreet networks, or if we even
in here in the office and wejust do our work in the office
(40:27):
and some paperwork, it's justhow you present that right, your
image, or how you dress.
Are you up to date?
Are you a trendsetter in thatneighborhood?
Right, what are you doing fromwhat people know you from doing?
Yeah, you've got credibility atthat time for doing these
things or whatnot.
Like I'm saying like back thenyeah, at that time, when me and
(40:49):
Javante was going up, it wasabout violence, so you got
respect off violence, right.
As technology grows andeverything, it started to switch
up.
The kids who couldn't beoutside and couldn't stand all
those corners and several doorsand whatnot, got into the tech
game and got into scamming.
Now they are looking at as theones, as the influencers,
(41:13):
because now they got the moneyand so now it started to switch.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
So the ones who was so it was gangster now having
money Right.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
So the ones who was had the respect or the violence
if they couldn't make thattransition and some money, they
lost that.
And now a younger one is lookedat by everybody else and might
get the title of Big Homiebecause of the money and what
he's bringing to the community.
(41:41):
So when we startedunderstanding and evolving,
thinking against, like, oh okay,it's not about violence, period
, it's not about that.
It's about who you are as yourcharacter and what you're doing
for your community.
If you say you're a part of thestreet network and this
(42:02):
community, how are you upliftingyour younger brothers and
sisters or putting them in abetter position than what you
are or how you got where you are?
So that works for us hugely,hugely, hugely.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
And that's a recommendation In other places
is that people, when we'resaying kind of tailor the
messenger?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
to the message.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
So make sure that the person delivering the message
is somebody that young peopleare gonna actually be able to
hear that message from.
And we'll respect it and kindof be willing to take the
message and then act on it.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Because these kids go off before they ever say
anything.
They're gonna look you up anddown, see what you got on, or
you even look like you doingsomething to even talk to me,
even put me in a position.
You even look like it before Ieven waste my time with it.
It's all about how you coming.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
Yeah, cause if you coming here with the next the
suits and the tides, they gonnadub you up.
They gonna be like I don'twanna talk to this police,
grandpa table guy, like, andthen you caught somebody coming
in with some you know Dior on orsomething.
They gonna gravitate to himbefore the businessman for real.
So, being that, we know thatyou gotta apply that to the kids
(43:18):
.
You know what I'm saying, Justto get the buy-in and you know
the buy-in in front of them.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
But I think when, for people who are interested in
doing similar work or trying totake, you know, in terms of
scaling something like, ifyou've got people who have a
model that works locally and tryto take it somewhere else both
the people who are taking thework out and the people that are
funding that work really needto recognize that there's gonna
take time and it's gonna takemoney and you have to like this
(43:46):
back and forth thing really hasto happen and it's an essential
and a building block foranything in the future to come
out of it.
And when we try to, you knowcause, a lot of times budgets
don't allow and that's notreally, you know, it's not
anybody's fault, but it's justthe way that kind of especially
research is constructed.
you know it's like you havethree months and this limited
(44:07):
budget to do your planning phaseand then boom, you gotta get in
there and you just gotta get itdone.
And this is just.
It's a relational thing as muchas anything else and you have
to leave the time and space forthat Important but this piece
about specifically for the younggun carriers, is recognizing
the importance of centrality ofhealing and creating spaces for
them to address and kind of workwith and work through the
(44:29):
extensive trauma that they'vebeen exposed to.
And so if we're having you knowprograms or initiatives like
certainly they need jobs, likeno one's gonna say people don't
need jobs, they 100% need jobs.
But if those employmentopportunities or the job
training programs or any ofthese things don't recognize the
need for this healing piece tobe part of it, those young
(44:53):
people are not gonna be part ofthat job or they're not gonna be
part of that training programthe vast majority anyway in a
month, six months, a year,because there are all sorts of
things that can kind of come upor come out that a lot of times
these programs just aren't readyfor or they're not built to
kind of absorb.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah, elise talked about this a lot.
It's like nonprofits orcommunity-based organizations
when they are working with gangmembers.
It's like they really want tobring you in and sit down and
like try to separate you fromthat of what you are part of,
not knowing the true context ofwhy he's a part of that and it's
(45:35):
really for safety andprotection on the things that's
happening in his neighborhood.
So that to me that's notrealistic as a first approach
and to intervention at all.
What we have talked about andwhat we have learned and also
witnessed as gangs are often inthe primary source of trust and
alliance for members Attemptingto treat young people as
(45:58):
individuals outside thesenetworks and notice a social and
cultural central access to theBlack youth experience at urban
settings.
By partnering with these gangs,program members will be
authorized making it safe forgun carriers to be honest about
what they experience.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
And that means they're gonna be honest and
they're gonna actually say, okay, here are the things that I'm
facing, here's the stuff thatI'm dealing with.
Can I get some help?
And so it's like if they'reafraid that they can't share,
because the trauma a lot oftimes is involved in the street
network or it might.
They're afraid that they'regonna be snitching or
implicating a lot of times andso they're just gonna shut down.
(46:35):
You're outside, you're not partof this, I'm not gonna talk to
you.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Well, and it's really , I mean, good, isn't even big
enough of a word, but I thinkit's really important that the
folks that you talk to one feltheard and trusted you, and that
also that studies like this areincreasing and separating out to
other cities, because I thinkthis is reports like this are so
important for figuring out howwe, as the folks that work in
gun violence prevention, canhelp shift the narratives around
(47:01):
why and how gun violence ishappening.
And so, on behalf of Kelly andmyself, I just wanna thank you
all for giving us your timetoday to talk about this
important work, and, hey, I'llgive a shout out for you.
If listeners wanna learn more,you can read the report it's
linked in the description ofthis episode or check out your
website, innovatingjusticeorg.
Hey, wanna share with thepodcast.
(47:24):
Listeners can now get in touchwith us here at Red Blue and
Brady via phone or text message.
Simply call or text us at480-744-3452 with your thoughts.
Questions, concerns, ideas, catpictures, whatever.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Thanks for listening.
As always, brady's life savingwork in Congress, the courts and
communities across the countryis made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Bradyor how to get involved in the
fight against gun violence,please like and subscribe to the
podcast.
Get in touch with us atbradyunitedorg or on social at
Brady Buzz.
Be brave and remember.
(48:01):
Take action, not sides.
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