October 27, 2023 • 25 mins
Award-winning Young Adult fiction novelist Pam Withers stops by the podcast to discuss her latest book Mountain Runaways. This fast-paced novel tells the story of the three kids, Jon, Korka and Aron, who lose their parents in an avalanche and decide to run away into the mountains and fend for themselves until the oldest sibling, Jon, turns 18 and can become their legal guardian. They have to deal with illness, injury, wild animals and each other.
Pam talks about why YA fiction has such crossover appeal and how to get boys to read. She has created the website www.yadudebooks.ca as a resource for young male readers and is the author of Jump Starting Boys: Help Your Reluctant Reader Find Success in School and Life.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
I think that there's a lot of adults who like to read
(00:02):
young adult books. And they'renot just teachers and parents, I
think the the plots are maybe alittle bit simpler, but probably
more important is that theirendings tend to be happy. And I
also think that all of us havean inner teen. And we'd like to
think about those years when wewere teens and free and wild and
(00:22):
learning. And I think there'slots of reasons that young adult
appeals to adults as well as.
(00:49):
Hello, welcome back to the RedFern book review. I am your
host, Amy Mair. And today, I amjoined by award winning author,
Pam withers, who's a formerjournalist. And that's how I
knew her many years ago, workingdowntown as a journalist in
Vancouver. And in over the last20 years, she has been focused
(01:14):
on why a fiction, specificallytargeted at Boys and have
focused on adventure and thewilderness. And I was really
interested in talking with herbecause I've been wanting to
talk about the popularity of yenovels for a while, and how they
(01:37):
may have changed over the yearsand also how they are very
popular with adults as well.
They're kind of a very popularcrossover genre, and she has
some thoughts around that. So, alittle bit about Pam, she's
written more than two dozenadventure books. She's also a
boys literacy advocate. Shespeaks all around North America.
(02:00):
And she's the co author of abook called jump starting boys
help you're helping yourreluctant learner find success
in school and life. So now we'regonna move over and talk with
Pam about her latest book,mountain runaways, which I
loved, by the way, and what Ithought was really unique about
(02:21):
this book is it really straddlesthat line between being
compelling authentic for youngreaders, not too preachy, but
yet, I think any parent wouldalso be okay with their kind of
late elementary school, earlyhigh school reading. So now
(02:41):
let's move over and talk withPam. Hello, Pam, welcome to the
podcast.
I'm so honored to be here.
So in fact, this is the secondtime we've recorded we had we
recorded last week in it, I hada bit of a technology
(03:01):
malfunction. So thank you somuch for coming back for round
two. Okay, so I wanted to startout by asking you, when you
first started writing yourbooks, you knew you want to
write about sports and thewilderness, but you didn't know
(03:22):
that you were going to bewriting YA novels per se. So how
did you decide on ya as yourgenre of choice? Okay, so
I misspent my life as a kayaker.
So I knew that my first book wasgoing to be about kayaking. I
found myself unemployed for ayear, we were living overseas,
and I wasn't allowed to work inthat country. So I decided to
(03:44):
keep myself out of trouble bywriting a novel. I imagined
that, you know, in my naivemind, I imagined that only
kayakers were going to read it.
And I knew from experience thatmost kayakers were young guys.
And so I decided I needed towrite for young guys, and not
knowing it was going to turninto a series of 10 books and
(04:06):
that lots of girls were going toenjoy it too. So I just tripped
into young adults in that way,and my son was 10 years old at
the time, so I was kind ofwriting it for him. And I would
read each chapter to him atnight for his bedtime story. And
like all kids trying to delaytheir bedtime, he'd say, why
(04:27):
don't you just read me one morechapter? And I'd say no, because
I haven't written it yet.
And you in fact, you wereactually writing this book at
the hockey rink while your sonwas playing. It is did he were
you actually watching the gameor how did you do that?
i He complained that I wasn'talways looking when he scored a
(04:50):
goal but I told him I alwayslooked up right before he scored
a goal. But yes, I was right. Iwrote a lot of it in the chili
hockey rink stands while He wasat practice.
So I wanted to talk with youabout boys and reading. And I've
raised two boys, myself, andeveryone knows for I think all
children with all thedistractions available to them,
(05:13):
it's hard to get them to readmore than ever. So what do you
think are the unique challengesfor getting young kids and
specifically boys reading,um, I think, first of all, you
have to limit their electronictime that goes for both boys and
girls. And that takes somestrong parenting, we ourselves
had a rule that he was onlyallowed half an hour of
(05:34):
electronic time per day, but hecould earn more electronic time
by reading. So if he read forhalf an hour, he could earn
another 15 minutes of TV time orwhatever he wanted. That's, you
know, that was just our way.
(05:55):
It's really important,especially for guys that they
see guys reading. So if theyhave dads or uncle's or reading,
buddy, it's really importantthat they that they witnessed
that it's okay to read if you'rea guy. And the genres that guys
read, written lots of articleson that. And there is a book on
(06:19):
that I have a not for profitwebsite called ya, which stands
for young adult, dude books.ca.
And that has lots and lots ofbook reviews, the books that are
of interest to guys as well asinterviews with male authors. So
and some female authors too. Sothat answer your question,
(06:44):
it did well, and you know, wetalked before what I thought was
interesting. So when I wasgetting my boys reading, I would
read them, books that I hadloved, and they weren't buying
it for the most part. And a lotof those books that I read, and
you would have read, some ofthem were from like, the early
20th century, and they just weretoo slow. They call them old
(07:05):
timey. And then you and then thenew books, sometimes they
bothered me, because it justseemed like there had to be an
explosion on every page in orderto get them to read. So I think
what I thought was interestingis you talked about looking at
nonfiction as a choice and don'tnecessarily start out with
fiction with the boys becausethey love that. Can you tell
(07:27):
talk more about that. Soeducated women, whether they are
teachers, or moms tend to overpush fiction on boys and forget
that nonfiction is just as legitfor getting kids comfortable
with reading and enjoyingreading. Guinness Book of World
Records is the number one choicefor guys. And also, I think a
lot of women tend to overmicromanage their kids on what
(07:53):
they're reading, oh, no, thathas a bit of violence in it, he
can't read that. And there comesto the point where the kid can,
you know, doesn't have anythingto read that he enjoys that will
turn him on to reading. Sothat's what librarians are for
librarians, I worshiplibrarians, they're great at
choosing the books that willconnect with kids. So that's
(08:17):
one thing I really liked aboutyour book was you really
balanced that line, like, as aparent, you can read it and
think, Oh, I'd be totally happyif my kid read this. But I think
the young, like a young, like alate elementary, early high
school kid will find it speaksto them. Like there's some there
is violence there is like, youknow, they're kind of mad at the
(08:40):
world at points, like, how doyou balance that? Like, how do
you find that balance?
Well, um, okay, so I raised aboy. And I also ran a summer
camp for six years teachingmostly boys how to kayak. So I
kind of think I understand thisslightly warped minds of
preteens and teens, andespecially those who like the
(09:02):
outdoors. So how do I balancehaving a bit of violence
actually, I don't have muchviolence, most of my violence
does nature, you know, whetherit's avalanches or whatnot. But
I do think that books these daysneed to be more have lots of
(09:23):
action and tension. Comparedwith books generations ago, look
at what kids are watching on TV,look at how everything's just
faster paced. So I think thatthey will get bored with
something that is too slowpaced. At least the kids that I
write for, and me myself.
(09:44):
So when you go you go into theschools often and you'll do
readings and meet with the kids.
And you've been doing this forprobably as long as you've been
writing these books about 20years. So how have you noticed
that the readers and the kidshave changed change in either
maybe the questions that they'reasking you, or the kinds of
things that they're looking for?
(10:05):
Or is or is it the same?
They definitely want morediversity. I've heard that in
the schools from the kidsthemselves. They don't you know,
they want the characters toreflect their world. I just
think, you know, it's kind oflike us, like asking, What do
women want? Well, you know,what, woman, so, you know,
they're all different kids, likedifferent genres, like
(10:27):
different, like different typesof thoughts. So I just write
what I do, which is, you know,outdoor sports and an action and
lots of fun. I like to put humorin my books, but some of them
are dark as well. So the kidswho like that kind of stuff,
(10:47):
congregate around my books, butI don't think that we can
generalize too much.
Okay, so why don't you go aheadand tell us about the plot for
mountain runaways?
Okay, so three kids who areokay, I better remember this
correctly, 1711, and 14. Theyare orphans when their parents
(11:14):
are killed in an avalanche. Andthey believe that social
services is going to separatethem into different homes. And
so they run away into thewilderness and try to survive
until the oldest turns 18 Sothat he can then be their
guardian. And of course, threesiblings, hey, I grew up as one
of six siblings. So I'm anworld's expert on sibling
(11:35):
rivalry. And things can fallapart quickly when you're on a
camping trip with one bossy guyone over assertive one of the
feminist 14 year old and onespace cadet 11 year old. So
yeah, and plus they haveproblems with getting enough
food and safety and bears andsearch and rescue people lose
(11:59):
searching for them and weirdperson that they meet in the
wilderness is is also hidingaway. So lots of lots of
potential there for action andinterest and
attention. And you get sospecific about the animals and
the food that they're eating.
And that's the first time I'dever heard of him again. Can you
tell people what that is. And Ireally hope I don't ever have to
(12:22):
eat it todry meat that's ground into
powder and mixed with fat. Andit lasts a lot longer than
jerky, which are strips of meatdried in the sun. And so
therefore, it's a good thing tohave on a wilderness trip where
you don't have much you can'tcarry much weight and you need
sustenance. The reason that IOkay, so there's two things that
(12:46):
helped me a huge amount on thesurvival information. One is
that I ran across the formerranger for the area in which
this is set, which is northernAlberta. And his name was Rob k.
So he was arranged there for hishe was national park board and
there for years and years. Andhe happened to write a book
(13:08):
called Born to be Wild, which Iran across. And then I contacted
him and he worked with me on allthe scenes he helped me figure
out what elevation they were athow they would steal, steal food
from wild animals, how theywould, you know, catch a catch a
rabbit everything.
(13:31):
So he was really helpful. Andthen also I ran across a book a
very old book called Nature isyour guide by Harold Getty. And
that was the originalinspiration for this book
because I thought how cool isthis that he knew to like drop
bark pieces in the water as likea Hansel and Gretel grid trail
(13:51):
to find his way back, I learnedall kinds of tricks in there
that were you know, not beforetechnology gave us survival
skills.
And I assume this Ranger wasalso a beta reader, like when he
read some that what you wrote,did he make can you remember
anything specific that he hadyou change?
(14:11):
I don't know if I rememberanything specific. But he
certainly was not only theperson that I interviewed to
write the scenes, but then heread the scenes and edit them to
make sure that they wereauthentic. And authenticity is
so important to me. I guess as aformer journalist, I almost
enjoy interviewing people andresearching more than the
(14:32):
writing itself. And I certainlydo a lot of research to make my
books authentic. And if somebodydoes get lost in the wilderness,
I'd like to think they theymight actually remember
something that I heard in thebook.
So talk about I think this sceneyou're going to read is the most
dramatic scene in the book andyou're gonna do a reading now
why don't you set this up foreverybody?
(14:54):
Okay, so this is the scene wherethe kids steal some loose meat
from some wool also kill it forthem and again this is Rob told
me that this was perfectlyauthentic that kids could have
done this however he doesn'trecommend that they do it Okay,
so we're gonna start with thesister is the fire engine
(15:17):
protector she asked tremblingslightly as the moose goes down
then struggles up the wolfstaring at him all the time are
the wolves going to kill usnext? wolves don't attack
people. John says not even if westeal their kill. As long as we
have fire sticks, John thruststhe tips of the sticks into the
fire. His siblings stare at himas the moose falters and plunges
(15:39):
into the snow again kickingloudly as the wolves at the
wolves pouncing on him. The snowunder the moose begins to turn
red. Now John orders picking upone of the long sticks and
raising its flaming and like atorch. With his other hand, he
grabs the cold bone handle ofhis hunting knife. Though his
insides are shaking, he liftshis face, squinting his eyes and
(16:02):
juts out his chin in an attemptto look fearless so that his
siblings will follow suit. Awolf strongest sense of smell
and it can smell fear. Corkerand Aaron exchanged looks and
pick up the other two flamingsticks. John grabs a clean t
shirt from his pack and pushesit into his rear waistband
before marching straight to thebloody scene with Corca and
(16:22):
Aaron following him, the woolsnarl but back up as he gets
closer, the loose is stillkicking a little Argh, he shouts
at the wolves shaking his firestick out them. Later Corker
will ask what kind of sound wasthat you thought you were a
pirate? But not but now the wolfscurrying off their prize to the
edge of the meadow. It's threewolves against three humans with
(16:44):
a fire sticks and humanaggression being the deciding
factors and who wins. That ishow they capture a moose from a
wolf pack.
That is very dramatic. I was Ithink that's a really good
example of just that creatingthat tension. Okay, so the other
(17:07):
end and another couplequestions. Oh, I know you are
nominated for an award for thisbook. So tell us tell us about
that. That nomination.
I was nominated for a chocolateLilly award. And the best thing
about that as award is that ifyou win it, you actually get a
chocolate. And so you'll have tocheck back next year as to
whether it wins. I've also beennominated for chocolate Lily for
(17:30):
truckers Canyon, and surf zoneand peak survival. And I've won
red maple awards for stowawaytrackers Canyon and first ascent
and I'm most proud of myinternational silver novelist
awards for parkour Club, whichis my favorite book and first
ascent. Why is parkour club yourfavorite book? It's the edgiest.
(17:53):
It deals with Islamophobia. Andit has a very diverse array of
characters. And I actually wroteit with a Muslim woman. And
yeah, so it has terrorists init. And it has parkour in it.
And parkour, which is kind oflike gymnastics is very, very
(18:13):
popular with kids. And they'rethe ones that asked me to write
a parkour book.
So it sounds like you'veprobably maybe stretched like
learn more than you. Like youhave a lot of base knowledge on
the outdoors. And this was maybestretching you to do more
research for that. Is thatright? That's right, every
book is a bigger stretch thanthe last one. But yeah, again, I
(18:35):
like to keep them realistic. AndI'm hoping that kids get
something out of them more thanjust the sport
action. You know, one thing Ireally want to know is why do
you think why fiction is such apopular crossover genre with
adult readers today? A lot,you'll see a lot of people just
(18:59):
picking up a book that you thinkwould be for a 13 to 15 year
old, but they want toread that. But you mean why do
people sit on buses with theiryoung adult book hidden between
the covers of a magazine? Sobecause they're adults, and
they're reading a young adultbook?
Yeah, asking for a friend.
I think that the I think thatthere's a lot of adults who like
(19:21):
to read young adult books, andthey're not just teachers and
parents. I think the plots aremaybe a little bit simpler, but
probably more important is thatthey, their, their endings tend
to be happy. And I also thinkthat all of us have an inner
(19:41):
teen. And we'd like to thinkabout those years when we were
teens and free and wild andlearning and I think there's
lots of reasons that young adultappeals to adults as well as
young adults. Andwhat and I wanted to end by
asking What are you working onnext?
(20:02):
I have just finished a cavingnovel set in tasas was are set
in northwestern VancouverIsland. And that was a lot of
research, especially since I'mclaustrophobic and don't really
like caving myself. But yeah, Isaw I finished the painting
book. And it's in the pipelinenow. And hang on for more news
(20:25):
on that. So another question,I want to ask you kind of online
to that earlier point aboutbalancing, creating a book that
appeals to children and twoadults. You I feel like you kind
of sneak in some lessons andsome morals in there. But it's
not preachy, because no, nochild or teen is going to read
(20:47):
your book, if it's preachy. Sohow do you get away with that?
And yeah, what's again, what'sthat line?
It's a very fine line. And Ithink you have to be very
perceptive, and you have to bein touch with teenagers in order
to walk that fine line.
Teenagers are absolutelyallergic to preachiness in their
books. And I see a lot of booksthat don't get that. So to me,
(21:10):
my, my number one goal is toentertain them and get them
reading, get them to lovereading, get them to enjoy the
book, if I have a secondarygoal, if I have a if I have some
kind of little moral lesson ortwo in there, whether it's anti
racism, or environmentalism, orwhatever, it has to be snuck in,
(21:30):
as you put it, it has to be asecondary goal. And I can tell
if an author's writing with aprimary goal of preaching, and
I'm pretty sure teenagers cansniff it out long before me. So
again, I think as long as youhave your priorities straight,
and are in touch with teens, andhow they talk and how they read,
(21:51):
that you can do that. I thought,though,
I mean, the big lesson with thekids in this book was just how
much how much they love and careabout each other, even though
they're squabbling half thetime, I think they really
realized that in the end, and Ithought I thought that
(22:11):
needed to change a little inorder to get along and work
together. And I think that wasthe primary lesson in there is
that you need to be moresensitive to each other and
respect each other in order topull together and if you don't
pull together, things can goback.
Oh, one final another finalquestion. Mountain runaways is a
(22:34):
standalone book. And I haveobserved that it seems very
popular for children's and youngadult books to be series. And so
kind of is that your decision?
Is that the publisher? Like howdoes and which which do you like
better?
There? Well, my first book wasraging river, and I naively
(22:59):
pitched it as the first in aseries, and they call my bluff
and did want a series. So Iwrote my first 10 books as part
of a series. And then I had theopportunity to start doing stand
alones, which was my decision.
So writing a series is greatfinancially for both the author
and the publisher. And it's nicefor fans, and it's great for
(23:23):
building your credibility as anauthor. But I personally think
that once I finished the series,and was able to write for a
slightly older audience,slightly more complex books, and
not connected with a previousbook that there was more
creative license and morefulfilling for me, so I've stuck
(23:46):
with standalone since then.
Okay,that makes sense. Well, thanks
so much, Pam. And I reallyappreciate this time, that was
funto be on your program, which I
think is fantastic, and all thebest with your ongoing career.
Okay, thank you.
(24:06):
Bye, bye.
Thanks so much to Pam for comingon the podcast. You know, that
was really interesting when shementioned that women and maybe
sometimes teachers focus onreaching boys through fiction,
when what they really want isnonfiction. And I remember when
(24:29):
my boys were quite young, youknow, reading them books, like
picture books, like with diggersand garbage and all that kind of
stuff. And, and I did also readthem the Guinness Book of World
Records, but I think as soon asthey were able to start reading,
I focused on fiction. And that'sinteresting that it doesn't
(24:52):
really matter. Like what youwant is you want to get them
engaged. So that was kind ofcool. And again, the book is
Mountain runaways. And I willalso put the links to her
website on encouraging boys toread. It's white dudes.com. So,
anyway, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk to you
(25:12):
later.
I think that there's a lot of adults who like to read
(00:02):
young adult books. And they'renot just teachers and parents, I
think the the plots are maybe alittle bit simpler, but probably
more important is that theirendings tend to be happy. And I
also think that all of us havean inner teen. And we'd like to
think about those years when wewere teens and free and wild and
(00:22):
learning. And I think there'slots of reasons that young adult
appeals to adults as well as.
(00:49):
Hello, welcome back to the RedFern book review. I am your
host, Amy Mair. And today, I amjoined by award winning author,
Pam withers, who's a formerjournalist. And that's how I
knew her many years ago, workingdowntown as a journalist in
Vancouver. And in over the last20 years, she has been focused
(01:14):
on why a fiction, specificallytargeted at Boys and have
focused on adventure and thewilderness. And I was really
interested in talking with herbecause I've been wanting to
talk about the popularity of yenovels for a while, and how they
(01:37):
may have changed over the yearsand also how they are very
popular with adults as well.
They're kind of a very popularcrossover genre, and she has
some thoughts around that. So, alittle bit about Pam, she's
written more than two dozenadventure books. She's also a
boys literacy advocate. Shespeaks all around North America.
(02:00):
And she's the co author of abook called jump starting boys
help you're helping yourreluctant learner find success
in school and life. So now we'regonna move over and talk with
Pam about her latest book,mountain runaways, which I
loved, by the way, and what Ithought was really unique about
(02:21):
this book is it really straddlesthat line between being
compelling authentic for youngreaders, not too preachy, but
yet, I think any parent wouldalso be okay with their kind of
late elementary school, earlyhigh school reading. So now
(02:41):
let's move over and talk withPam. Hello, Pam, welcome to the
podcast.
I'm so honored to be here.
So in fact, this is the secondtime we've recorded we had we
recorded last week in it, I hada bit of a technology
(03:01):
malfunction. So thank you somuch for coming back for round
two. Okay, so I wanted to startout by asking you, when you
first started writing yourbooks, you knew you want to
write about sports and thewilderness, but you didn't know
(03:22):
that you were going to bewriting YA novels per se. So how
did you decide on ya as yourgenre of choice? Okay, so
I misspent my life as a kayaker.
So I knew that my first book wasgoing to be about kayaking. I
found myself unemployed for ayear, we were living overseas,
and I wasn't allowed to work inthat country. So I decided to
(03:44):
keep myself out of trouble bywriting a novel. I imagined
that, you know, in my naivemind, I imagined that only
kayakers were going to read it.
And I knew from experience thatmost kayakers were young guys.
And so I decided I needed towrite for young guys, and not
knowing it was going to turninto a series of 10 books and
(04:06):
that lots of girls were going toenjoy it too. So I just tripped
into young adults in that way,and my son was 10 years old at
the time, so I was kind ofwriting it for him. And I would
read each chapter to him atnight for his bedtime story. And
like all kids trying to delaytheir bedtime, he'd say, why
(04:27):
don't you just read me one morechapter? And I'd say no, because
I haven't written it yet.
And you in fact, you wereactually writing this book at
the hockey rink while your sonwas playing. It is did he were
you actually watching the gameor how did you do that?
i He complained that I wasn'talways looking when he scored a
(04:50):
goal but I told him I alwayslooked up right before he scored
a goal. But yes, I was right. Iwrote a lot of it in the chili
hockey rink stands while He wasat practice.
So I wanted to talk with youabout boys and reading. And I've
raised two boys, myself, andeveryone knows for I think all
children with all thedistractions available to them,
(05:13):
it's hard to get them to readmore than ever. So what do you
think are the unique challengesfor getting young kids and
specifically boys reading,um, I think, first of all, you
have to limit their electronictime that goes for both boys and
girls. And that takes somestrong parenting, we ourselves
had a rule that he was onlyallowed half an hour of
(05:34):
electronic time per day, but hecould earn more electronic time
by reading. So if he read forhalf an hour, he could earn
another 15 minutes of TV time orwhatever he wanted. That's, you
know, that was just our way.
(05:55):
It's really important,especially for guys that they
see guys reading. So if theyhave dads or uncle's or reading,
buddy, it's really importantthat they that they witnessed
that it's okay to read if you'rea guy. And the genres that guys
read, written lots of articleson that. And there is a book on
(06:19):
that I have a not for profitwebsite called ya, which stands
for young adult, dude books.ca.
And that has lots and lots ofbook reviews, the books that are
of interest to guys as well asinterviews with male authors. So
and some female authors too. Sothat answer your question,
(06:44):
it did well, and you know, wetalked before what I thought was
interesting. So when I wasgetting my boys reading, I would
read them, books that I hadloved, and they weren't buying
it for the most part. And a lotof those books that I read, and
you would have read, some ofthem were from like, the early
20th century, and they just weretoo slow. They call them old
(07:05):
timey. And then you and then thenew books, sometimes they
bothered me, because it justseemed like there had to be an
explosion on every page in orderto get them to read. So I think
what I thought was interestingis you talked about looking at
nonfiction as a choice and don'tnecessarily start out with
fiction with the boys becausethey love that. Can you tell
(07:27):
talk more about that. Soeducated women, whether they are
teachers, or moms tend to overpush fiction on boys and forget
that nonfiction is just as legitfor getting kids comfortable
with reading and enjoyingreading. Guinness Book of World
Records is the number one choicefor guys. And also, I think a
lot of women tend to overmicromanage their kids on what
(07:53):
they're reading, oh, no, thathas a bit of violence in it, he
can't read that. And there comesto the point where the kid can,
you know, doesn't have anythingto read that he enjoys that will
turn him on to reading. Sothat's what librarians are for
librarians, I worshiplibrarians, they're great at
choosing the books that willconnect with kids. So that's
(08:17):
one thing I really liked aboutyour book was you really
balanced that line, like, as aparent, you can read it and
think, Oh, I'd be totally happyif my kid read this. But I think
the young, like a young, like alate elementary, early high
school kid will find it speaksto them. Like there's some there
is violence there is like, youknow, they're kind of mad at the
(08:40):
world at points, like, how doyou balance that? Like, how do
you find that balance?
Well, um, okay, so I raised aboy. And I also ran a summer
camp for six years teachingmostly boys how to kayak. So I
kind of think I understand thisslightly warped minds of
preteens and teens, andespecially those who like the
(09:02):
outdoors. So how do I balancehaving a bit of violence
actually, I don't have muchviolence, most of my violence
does nature, you know, whetherit's avalanches or whatnot. But
I do think that books these daysneed to be more have lots of
(09:23):
action and tension. Comparedwith books generations ago, look
at what kids are watching on TV,look at how everything's just
faster paced. So I think thatthey will get bored with
something that is too slowpaced. At least the kids that I
write for, and me myself.
(09:44):
So when you go you go into theschools often and you'll do
readings and meet with the kids.
And you've been doing this forprobably as long as you've been
writing these books about 20years. So how have you noticed
that the readers and the kidshave changed change in either
maybe the questions that they'reasking you, or the kinds of
things that they're looking for?
(10:05):
Or is or is it the same?
They definitely want morediversity. I've heard that in
the schools from the kidsthemselves. They don't you know,
they want the characters toreflect their world. I just
think, you know, it's kind oflike us, like asking, What do
women want? Well, you know,what, woman, so, you know,
they're all different kids, likedifferent genres, like
(10:27):
different, like different typesof thoughts. So I just write
what I do, which is, you know,outdoor sports and an action and
lots of fun. I like to put humorin my books, but some of them
are dark as well. So the kidswho like that kind of stuff,
(10:47):
congregate around my books, butI don't think that we can
generalize too much.
Okay, so why don't you go aheadand tell us about the plot for
mountain runaways?
Okay, so three kids who areokay, I better remember this
correctly, 1711, and 14. Theyare orphans when their parents
(11:14):
are killed in an avalanche. Andthey believe that social
services is going to separatethem into different homes. And
so they run away into thewilderness and try to survive
until the oldest turns 18 Sothat he can then be their
guardian. And of course, threesiblings, hey, I grew up as one
of six siblings. So I'm anworld's expert on sibling
(11:35):
rivalry. And things can fallapart quickly when you're on a
camping trip with one bossy guyone over assertive one of the
feminist 14 year old and onespace cadet 11 year old. So
yeah, and plus they haveproblems with getting enough
food and safety and bears andsearch and rescue people lose
(11:59):
searching for them and weirdperson that they meet in the
wilderness is is also hidingaway. So lots of lots of
potential there for action andinterest and
attention. And you get sospecific about the animals and
the food that they're eating.
And that's the first time I'dever heard of him again. Can you
tell people what that is. And Ireally hope I don't ever have to
(12:22):
eat it todry meat that's ground into
powder and mixed with fat. Andit lasts a lot longer than
jerky, which are strips of meatdried in the sun. And so
therefore, it's a good thing tohave on a wilderness trip where
you don't have much you can'tcarry much weight and you need
sustenance. The reason that IOkay, so there's two things that
(12:46):
helped me a huge amount on thesurvival information. One is
that I ran across the formerranger for the area in which
this is set, which is northernAlberta. And his name was Rob k.
So he was arranged there for hishe was national park board and
there for years and years. Andhe happened to write a book
(13:08):
called Born to be Wild, which Iran across. And then I contacted
him and he worked with me on allthe scenes he helped me figure
out what elevation they were athow they would steal, steal food
from wild animals, how theywould, you know, catch a catch a
rabbit everything.
(13:31):
So he was really helpful. Andthen also I ran across a book a
very old book called Nature isyour guide by Harold Getty. And
that was the originalinspiration for this book
because I thought how cool isthis that he knew to like drop
bark pieces in the water as likea Hansel and Gretel grid trail
(13:51):
to find his way back, I learnedall kinds of tricks in there
that were you know, not beforetechnology gave us survival
skills.
And I assume this Ranger wasalso a beta reader, like when he
read some that what you wrote,did he make can you remember
anything specific that he hadyou change?
(14:11):
I don't know if I rememberanything specific. But he
certainly was not only theperson that I interviewed to
write the scenes, but then heread the scenes and edit them to
make sure that they wereauthentic. And authenticity is
so important to me. I guess as aformer journalist, I almost
enjoy interviewing people andresearching more than the
(14:32):
writing itself. And I certainlydo a lot of research to make my
books authentic. And if somebodydoes get lost in the wilderness,
I'd like to think they theymight actually remember
something that I heard in thebook.
So talk about I think this sceneyou're going to read is the most
dramatic scene in the book andyou're gonna do a reading now
why don't you set this up foreverybody?
(14:54):
Okay, so this is the scene wherethe kids steal some loose meat
from some wool also kill it forthem and again this is Rob told
me that this was perfectlyauthentic that kids could have
done this however he doesn'trecommend that they do it Okay,
so we're gonna start with thesister is the fire engine
(15:17):
protector she asked tremblingslightly as the moose goes down
then struggles up the wolfstaring at him all the time are
the wolves going to kill usnext? wolves don't attack
people. John says not even if westeal their kill. As long as we
have fire sticks, John thruststhe tips of the sticks into the
fire. His siblings stare at himas the moose falters and plunges
(15:39):
into the snow again kickingloudly as the wolves at the
wolves pouncing on him. The snowunder the moose begins to turn
red. Now John orders picking upone of the long sticks and
raising its flaming and like atorch. With his other hand, he
grabs the cold bone handle ofhis hunting knife. Though his
insides are shaking, he liftshis face, squinting his eyes and
(16:02):
juts out his chin in an attemptto look fearless so that his
siblings will follow suit. Awolf strongest sense of smell
and it can smell fear. Corkerand Aaron exchanged looks and
pick up the other two flamingsticks. John grabs a clean t
shirt from his pack and pushesit into his rear waistband
before marching straight to thebloody scene with Corca and
(16:22):
Aaron following him, the woolsnarl but back up as he gets
closer, the loose is stillkicking a little Argh, he shouts
at the wolves shaking his firestick out them. Later Corker
will ask what kind of sound wasthat you thought you were a
pirate? But not but now the wolfscurrying off their prize to the
edge of the meadow. It's threewolves against three humans with
(16:44):
a fire sticks and humanaggression being the deciding
factors and who wins. That ishow they capture a moose from a
wolf pack.
That is very dramatic. I was Ithink that's a really good
example of just that creatingthat tension. Okay, so the other
(17:07):
end and another couplequestions. Oh, I know you are
nominated for an award for thisbook. So tell us tell us about
that. That nomination.
I was nominated for a chocolateLilly award. And the best thing
about that as award is that ifyou win it, you actually get a
chocolate. And so you'll have tocheck back next year as to
whether it wins. I've also beennominated for chocolate Lily for
(17:30):
truckers Canyon, and surf zoneand peak survival. And I've won
red maple awards for stowawaytrackers Canyon and first ascent
and I'm most proud of myinternational silver novelist
awards for parkour Club, whichis my favorite book and first
ascent. Why is parkour club yourfavorite book? It's the edgiest.
(17:53):
It deals with Islamophobia. Andit has a very diverse array of
characters. And I actually wroteit with a Muslim woman. And
yeah, so it has terrorists init. And it has parkour in it.
And parkour, which is kind oflike gymnastics is very, very
(18:13):
popular with kids. And they'rethe ones that asked me to write
a parkour book.
So it sounds like you'veprobably maybe stretched like
learn more than you. Like youhave a lot of base knowledge on
the outdoors. And this was maybestretching you to do more
research for that. Is thatright? That's right, every
book is a bigger stretch thanthe last one. But yeah, again, I
(18:35):
like to keep them realistic. AndI'm hoping that kids get
something out of them more thanjust the sport
action. You know, one thing Ireally want to know is why do
you think why fiction is such apopular crossover genre with
adult readers today? A lot,you'll see a lot of people just
(18:59):
picking up a book that you thinkwould be for a 13 to 15 year
old, but they want toread that. But you mean why do
people sit on buses with theiryoung adult book hidden between
the covers of a magazine? Sobecause they're adults, and
they're reading a young adultbook?
Yeah, asking for a friend.
I think that the I think thatthere's a lot of adults who like
(19:21):
to read young adult books, andthey're not just teachers and
parents. I think the plots aremaybe a little bit simpler, but
probably more important is thatthey, their, their endings tend
to be happy. And I also thinkthat all of us have an inner
(19:41):
teen. And we'd like to thinkabout those years when we were
teens and free and wild andlearning and I think there's
lots of reasons that young adultappeals to adults as well as
young adults. Andwhat and I wanted to end by
asking What are you working onnext?
(20:02):
I have just finished a cavingnovel set in tasas was are set
in northwestern VancouverIsland. And that was a lot of
research, especially since I'mclaustrophobic and don't really
like caving myself. But yeah, Isaw I finished the painting
book. And it's in the pipelinenow. And hang on for more news
(20:25):
on that. So another question,I want to ask you kind of online
to that earlier point aboutbalancing, creating a book that
appeals to children and twoadults. You I feel like you kind
of sneak in some lessons andsome morals in there. But it's
not preachy, because no, nochild or teen is going to read
(20:47):
your book, if it's preachy. Sohow do you get away with that?
And yeah, what's again, what'sthat line?
It's a very fine line. And Ithink you have to be very
perceptive, and you have to bein touch with teenagers in order
to walk that fine line.
Teenagers are absolutelyallergic to preachiness in their
books. And I see a lot of booksthat don't get that. So to me,
(21:10):
my, my number one goal is toentertain them and get them
reading, get them to lovereading, get them to enjoy the
book, if I have a secondarygoal, if I have a if I have some
kind of little moral lesson ortwo in there, whether it's anti
racism, or environmentalism, orwhatever, it has to be snuck in,
(21:30):
as you put it, it has to be asecondary goal. And I can tell
if an author's writing with aprimary goal of preaching, and
I'm pretty sure teenagers cansniff it out long before me. So
again, I think as long as youhave your priorities straight,
and are in touch with teens, andhow they talk and how they read,
(21:51):
that you can do that. I thought,though,
I mean, the big lesson with thekids in this book was just how
much how much they love and careabout each other, even though
they're squabbling half thetime, I think they really
realized that in the end, and Ithought I thought that
(22:11):
needed to change a little inorder to get along and work
together. And I think that wasthe primary lesson in there is
that you need to be moresensitive to each other and
respect each other in order topull together and if you don't
pull together, things can goback.
Oh, one final another finalquestion. Mountain runaways is a
(22:34):
standalone book. And I haveobserved that it seems very
popular for children's and youngadult books to be series. And so
kind of is that your decision?
Is that the publisher? Like howdoes and which which do you like
better?
There? Well, my first book wasraging river, and I naively
(22:59):
pitched it as the first in aseries, and they call my bluff
and did want a series. So Iwrote my first 10 books as part
of a series. And then I had theopportunity to start doing stand
alones, which was my decision.
So writing a series is greatfinancially for both the author
and the publisher. And it's nicefor fans, and it's great for
(23:23):
building your credibility as anauthor. But I personally think
that once I finished the series,and was able to write for a
slightly older audience,slightly more complex books, and
not connected with a previousbook that there was more
creative license and morefulfilling for me, so I've stuck
(23:46):
with standalone since then.
Okay,that makes sense. Well, thanks
so much, Pam. And I reallyappreciate this time, that was
funto be on your program, which I
think is fantastic, and all thebest with your ongoing career.
Okay, thank you.
(24:06):
Bye, bye.
Thanks so much to Pam for comingon the podcast. You know, that
was really interesting when shementioned that women and maybe
sometimes teachers focus onreaching boys through fiction,
when what they really want isnonfiction. And I remember when
(24:29):
my boys were quite young, youknow, reading them books, like
picture books, like with diggersand garbage and all that kind of
stuff. And, and I did also readthem the Guinness Book of World
Records, but I think as soon asthey were able to start reading,
I focused on fiction. And that'sinteresting that it doesn't
(24:52):
really matter. Like what youwant is you want to get them
engaged. So that was kind ofcool. And again, the book is
Mountain runaways. And I willalso put the links to her
website on encouraging boys toread. It's white dudes.com. So,
anyway, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk to you
(25:12):
later.
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