January 21, 2025 • 58 mins
In this episode of Redeemed Through His Blood, Scott and David dive into the power of the Holy Ghost, daily revelation, and why they choose to believe and stay in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. They discuss the importance of being truly converted to the Lord rather than just the church, the role of patriarchal blessings in seeing ourselves as God does, and answer listener questions about calling and election. Scott and David also reflect on personal experiences, family influences, and the need to seek and recognize divine guidance every day. Don’t forget to send your questions to heredeemsus@gmail.com!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeem through His Blood.
(00:20):
This is Scott Durfey joined as always by David Durfey
What's up Dave?
How you doing bud?
Good.
Doing good.
Good to be here with you Scott.
It's good to be with you too.
We uh, did you have a good week?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great week.
Kind of slow.
Not.
We uh.
The holiday blues.
Yeah they're here I guess.
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I guess.
I uh, the holidays are definitely.
No people have to worry about paying their credit cards.
Yeah not me.
You know January's got its flaws.
Yeah you got that.
Anyway well you know that's I'm happy.
We uh, we started a new semester of Institute.
We actually have our first class tonight.
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We did a kickoff last week which was always amazing.
So it's the most.
Dave I'm blown away.
You got to experience this your whole career.
Yeah.
I didn't.
You know for the last five years since Deb and I have been doing this as a calling.
Not a career but as a part of our callings.
It has been just so wonderfully amazing for me to see the valiant people.
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I don't want to call them kids but to me they're kids.
The rising generation.
I just, they have a million things going on in their lives.
They're in school.
Some of them are many.
Maybe most even are working to kind of help supplement their way along.
And there you are there on Wednesday nights making a decision to come and partake of the
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spirit.
Holy moly.
Yeah.
They're, they're quite amazing.
Yeah.
Just awesome.
And there's a patriarch giving patriarchal blessings.
You know that was very obvious that this is a chosen generation.
I know the prophets have said it but I sure felt that giving blessings and how frequently
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a second coming came up in those blessings.
And you have to believe Scott that this is a generation that will help us.
You're in the second coming.
Yeah.
I have a question for you.
You're not prepared for this.
And if you decide you don't want to answer it just tell me and I'll cut it.
But you know when you're giving those patriarchal blessings there's so much sacredness attached
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to it.
I get it.
And you know and I don't want to encroach on that areas where I shouldn't.
But you know as a patriarch Dave I'll bet that you have the gift or the revelation given
as a patriarch while you're doing those things to really kind of see those that you're performing
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the blessing to or on as Heavenly Father sees them right.
Yeah.
Oh for sure Scott.
That's one of the major, I think there's three major parts of the patriarchal blessing
which I tell all the youth that come and adults too.
That's true for adults as well who get patriarchal blessing that there's three major parts of
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their blessings.
Their lineage which is maybe the most underappreciated part of the blessing.
If they understood the new and everlasting covenant they understood the Abrahamic covenant
and if they really understood what that meant and the blessings and responsibilities that
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went along with that it would be life changing for them.
And I encourage them to really study what the Abrahamic covenant is and the new and
everlasting covenant.
Anyway that's the first one and the second one is that the patriarch and he tries to
describe it in the best language that he can but there's no language that's equal to the
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feelings that he feels is to get a glimpse of how Heavenly Father sees them and that
can be life changing as well if they could just see themselves the way God sees them,
who they are, their preparation in the premortal existence, their purpose and mission here
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as well as their potential.
I think that's really a precious part of a patriarchal blessing and the third is to
get maybe some warning, a heads up, some counsel, some exhortation from the Lord based upon
who they are and maybe personal weaknesses or conditions or situations in their life
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that the Lord wants to give them some warning or help with.
So yeah I think those are the three major parts of a patriarchal blessing and I'll
bet if everybody would study their blessing they could probably break it down into those
three parts.
Yeah, I love that.
I actually have my patriarchal blessing sits on my desk and I read it with some frequency.
(05:19):
It had been a while but I had it out this morning and it was reading through it.
I think, did Stanley D. Roberts give you your...
No, okay.
He was stake president when I was a missionary so I went on a mission.
He was my stake president.
Alan, brother Alan was a patriarch before Stanley Roberts.
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That's not familiar to me but...
After he was stake president he became patriarch.
Right, I remember him as both.
I remember him obviously as stake president and then also when he gave...
In fact he's the one that called my dad to be a bishop.
You want to hear a funny story?
We're getting a little bit off track but when my dad was called to be a bishop I was about
seven years old and I was told by my mom that there's men coming over to talk to dad and
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I don't know what I was thinking but it was freaking me out and I couldn't be in there.
And so I don't know why I was so insecure about that but I thought my dad was in big
trouble.
I didn't know if these men had come or were going to take him to jail.
I didn't know what had been going on.
Well you knew your dad better than a lot of people so...
Better than Stanley D. Roberts I for sure.
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Yeah, anyway, all joking aside but that kind of...
I'll never forget that.
I sat on the stairs with the door closed because they closed and I was trying to listen to
what was going on in the front room.
Couldn't hear anything.
That created a lot of insecurity in my life that day for whatever reason.
I don't know why.
That's awesome.
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Your dad was a great bishop.
I know he was.
Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Well Dave, let's get to the topic today.
We spent quite a little bit of time last week talking about why we choose to believe.
I think we've since then had some maybe revelation or insight into our own lives around that.
But then also, and I'll do this again today, we extended an invitation to those who had
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questions as we kind of wind things on the podcast up.
But again, I don't have a date but that's coming.
We would love to entertain or entertain is the wrong word.
We would love to take on some of your questions and I know that we had a few today.
Yeah.
Yeah, so before I forget, I forgot last time and how to throw it in at the end, which makes
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it a tad bit awkward.
But before I forget, the place that you can send those questions is he redeems us at gmail.com.
So just send us any questions you may have.
We'll do our best to get to them if it's appropriate.
And there you go.
So we had a couple of questions.
Yeah.
And grateful for those questions and grateful for all the feedback, positive feedback and
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negative feedback we get.
So Scott, there's a question.
Somebody asked a question about if one needs a calling an election made sure before they
die.
And grateful for the question and there's there's a lot of things said about calling
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election made sure and second endowment and second anointing and and all of those things.
And I I love what Robert J. Matthews used to always say about that.
Scott, when he was asked a question about calling an election or the second anointing
or whatever, he would always say, well, let me just.
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Say this.
Those who are talking about it don't know what they're talking about.
And those who aren't talking to those who know about it aren't talking about it.
They ain't talking.
Now I know there's exceptions to that because I know there's some people that probably do
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talk about it.
Anyway, that's kind of how I feel about it.
Those who talk about that stuff probably don't know what they're talking about.
And those who know about it, they ain't talking.
But in regards to specifically if you need your calling election made sure before you
die, the answer would be no with a maybe a caveat that elder Bruce Armacon key in a funeral
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address at S. Dilworth Young's funeral.
So anyone that wants no can look, look that talk up use AI and look that talk up.
He said in essence that any righteous person who dies, the moment they die, they get their
calling election made sure.
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So you don't have to have your call to election made sure before you die.
But if you're faithful, you'll receive it soon after you die.
So I that's, that's all I know about about that.
And there's other things I, you know, have studied and know or people who think they
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know have said, but it's not really worth repeating.
The other thing that comes to my mind when, when things like this come up, you know, it's
interesting and, and you know, I got to admit sometimes I like to be the one that goes down
out of curiosity, some of those rabbit holes as well.
But what I got to remember is something that you taught me a long time ago when I had a
question about Dr. Nold that, that just wasn't 100% clear to me, you know, acceptably clear
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to me.
I think it's in the, is it DNC 2930 or something like that?
Yeah, God hasn't made all his judgments, no, no, no, no, man.
But we know enough.
Yeah.
And I, and I've heard you say that and I've heard Elder Anderson say that we don't know
everything, but we know enough.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think God's really loved for us and his mercy.
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Yeah.
Awards us.
He has not revealed all of his judgments unto men.
Not interesting.
And what none of us really know.
I mean, the, the, the questions such as can you progress from kingdom to kingdom?
I know Elder McConkey and others made some pretty strong statements about that, but I
also know that that's their opinions, that there's a, there's no official doctrine on
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that and God has chosen not to reveal that to us.
There's, it's, it's just as important, I think Scott in the gospel of Jesus Christ to
know what you know.
And it's also just as important to know what has not been revealed.
So a lot of people think a lot of things or even teach a lot of things that God himself
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has not revealed.
And we have to, we have to be really careful to understand that.
And then there are some things that are just too sacred to talk about in forums such as
this or over the pulpit or anyplace else.
It's just, it's, it's too sacred.
There are certain mysteries of the kingdom that are, are really sweet and powerful that
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one over time will be able to understand and receive.
If not in this life in the, in the life to come.
I, I just think it's really important that people like Peter, Peter exhorted us, the
saints in his epistle in the New Testament to, to seek their calling and election.
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We should all seek to be faithful and not worry too much about it because it's only
a matter of time before we do receive it in this life or the next.
Anyway, so I hope there were, there were some other questions, but maybe we'll just kind
of take you one or two each, uh, each week Scott and talk about it before we jump into
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our main.
Well, so Dave, last week we talked about this concept about why do I stay?
Right?
Um, and, and why do I choose to believe and stay in the restored gospel?
Yeah.
And, um, I didn't say church.
I said restored gospel.
That's there's a difference.
You know, I, I just think it's really important people understand and delineate between the
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restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the church.
They're not the same.
I know the church is the vehicle that moves the restored gospel of Jesus Christ forward.
But wow, that, that vehicle has a lot of bumps and bruises on it.
Well, and the church is also the reservoir that contains the covenants.
Yes.
That are, that we need to keep those sacred and a lot of the scriptures, the Holy Scriptures,
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the, the organization and prophets, seers and revelators and, uh, the restored gospel
of Jesus Christ.
God is, uh, is really the precious cargo.
It's really the, the heart, but, um, the, the vehicle that moves it forward in the body
that, uh, that helps take care and protect that heart is really, really important.
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But it's certainly imperfect.
And there's been so many, all everybody, you can't be a member of the church and not, not
to be aware of, of some of the weaknesses and imperfections of, of the church, meaning
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the organization, maybe certain historical events and the lives of individuals both past,
present and will be in the future.
Because as long as you have a, a mortal group of people running an organization, it's not
going to be a perfect organization.
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We've all had experiences with that.
And, and you know what?
And quite frankly, and honestly, I've been on both ends of that, you know, I've been
the guy that said something stupid.
I think we all have a guy that got a little thin skin.
I think we all have.
I said too.
So yeah, I've offended people and I've been offended.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I, when I think of that, I think, you know, I just have to extend grace to the extent
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that I hope it's extended.
Yeah, exactly.
That's, that's really good.
Yeah.
So anyway, I, I've entitled this document, Why I Choose to Believe and Stay in the Restored
Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And it really is a choice.
And I just, I just hope everybody understands that it's their personal choice.
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And then it's the choice of others and that, that nobody is, is forced to stay and nobody's
forced to leave.
I mean, second Nephi, right?
You can choose to act or be acted upon.
And we have our agency.
But boy, Scott, it's, it's hard for me to understand really, because I haven't experienced
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it and I don't want to judge anyone or condemn anyone for whatever reasons have chosen to
walk away.
And maybe it's permanently, I would like to believe that most of those who walk away
may be temporarily, that there will be events or experiences in their life or the Lord will
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take their, their hand or their by the hand, the Lord will take them by the hand and maybe
change their course of direction or events will happen in their life.
And a lot of them will come back.
I know that I, there's lots of stories like that.
So you hear about all these people who are leaving.
It would be really interesting to know 20 years later how many have returned.
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And I'm sure I, who knows, knowing the speculation to, to guess, but I know a good number of
them have returned already that I've known who have left.
And I just think it's really critical to, to, for each individual member of the church
who believes they have a testimony to do two things.
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Number one, know why they believe, why they choose to believe and stay.
And number two, to continue to grow it, to continue to develop it, continue to strengthen
their knowledge and testimony.
And there's a difference to Scott, not just between gospel and church.
There's, it's really important to distinguish between the gospel of Jesus Christ, the restored
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gospel of Jesus Christ and the church.
And it's equally as important to distinguish between a testimony and conversion.
And lots of people, I think have testimonies, but if they haven't truly been converted under
the Lord, then boy, they're, they're on pretty shaky ground.
Yeah.
You know, I, I believe that who or what that we have that testimony in and that conversion
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in is really critical to, because, you know, I know that there are those, I'm not pointing
fingers, I've been one of these people in the past, and there's really, you know, a
fine line between the, that delineates between the two, two concepts I'm about to, to mention
here.
One is, is that sometimes people have a testimony or a conversion to the church, to the organization,
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to the institution, to what it gives to all the good that it does for all of the redeeming
and redemptive qualities and, and how that it makes our lives better.
It's a, you know, through assimilation, and that's not what we're after here, but, but
through assimilation, the church gives us a very, very good pattern for living.
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And that if we follow that pattern for living, we're surely going to have the spirit abundant
in our lives.
We're surely going to have blessings in our lives.
We're surely going to have a level and a measure of joy increase because we're adhering to
principles that align us with those kinds of, just through the law, those kinds of things
that come our way.
And I would hang on just a minute because I'd call that a testimony in the church.
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I personally don't think you can be converted to the church because conversion to me means
change.
Okay.
If a person is converted, yeah, if you convert something, yeah, you change something, yeah,
and conversion to, I don't think it's possible to be converted to the Lord, to the church.
Sorry.
I don't think that conversion is, is associated with church.
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Okay.
So you can know it's true.
You can love it.
You can like it.
You can do all those things as far as the church is concerned.
You can even say, I know it's true.
I know it's the only true and living church.
But if you're not converted to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I know we haven't been changed.
If the church hasn't transformed you, if the gospel is not working your life, I honestly,
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Scott, I don't, I don't know how those people will survive or stay in the church at all.
And the reason I think you're saying this, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Alma 23, right,
verse six, we learned that.
Yes.
Five times in that chapter.
Those who were converted unto the Lord never did fall away.
Five times.
But that's the difference though.
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That's the difference.
Okay.
But so I'm going to, I'm going to disagree with you.
Okay.
I believe that because it says they were converted to the Lord.
Yeah.
You're saying that you don't believe somebody can be converted to the church, but I think
that the church can create some conversion in us and change us.
I've seen it.
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You've seen it.
I mean, I don't really want to dwell on this, but I listened to a podcast of a friend who
was a former bishop and now has left the church.
He was converted.
He was changed because of the church, but he wasn't converted to the Lord.
Yeah.
And I know that maybe we're getting into semantics here, but, but, but that's to me, that's the
thing.
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If somebody is just focuses on, and we can choose not to use word conversion, and that's
fine with me, but if somebody just focuses on their relationship with the church itself,
the institution or whatever.
And moving up, moving up and, you know, comparing themselves and they're just trying to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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And I have no idea that we started our podcast.
I think the very first one in season one, when, when I said paraphrasing Robert J. Matthews
again, I said the gospel of Jesus Christ is not assimilation.
It's redemption, redemption.
And that's the delineation to me.
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You know, the church is, we can assimilate only with and through the redemption of Jesus
Christ and the blessings made available to us because of his atonement.
That's the only place that redemption comes in.
And so for me, that's where in our, when we read about these people who were converted
on to the Lord, never did fall away.
Their conversion was to the Lord, not their church to the Lord converted under the Lord,
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converted under the Lord, converted under the Lord.
Yeah.
That's the key.
It's actually Alma 23.
And even, even Scott in turn of turn to let's, let's turn to fourth Nephi.
You know, after, after Jesus appears to the people in third Nephi and all of the healing
and forgiving and the miracles associated with his appearance to the people in third
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Nephi, oh man, for 200 years, Scott.
Yeah.
No one, nobody falls away and for almost 200 years.
Alma eventually pride and other things start set into the church and people start to fall
away.
But for almost 200 years and let me see your scriptures there.
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And I love this, I love this description of how it says that there was no contention.
There was no contention.
There's no contention.
I love this description.
And now I Mormon would the Esha know that the people had multiplied in so much they
spread upon all the face of the land and that they had become exceedingly rich because
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of their prosperity in Christ.
In Christ.
See, that's, that's the difference.
That is what, that's what made it possible for them.
And then, then this verse, and it came to pass.
There was no contention in land because of the love of God, which to me is manifested
in Jesus Christ, the love of God, which did dwell in the hearts of the people.
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Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's conversion.
That's conversion.
And I, I know a lot of people have had testimonies of the church and they go on some go on missions
and they have great testimonies of the church and they're, they're doing the best they can
to keep all the commandments and there were, but they never really have experienced some
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of the great miracles of the atonement of Jesus Christ and redemption in their lives.
And so this kind of outline that I just kind of created for myself really was, has, has
really been helpful to me and I, I hope it will be helpful to others.
Well, Dave, you say you created this for yourself.
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Let's expand on that just a little bit.
This wasn't just created for yourself.
You have had people come to you.
Oh, so many.
Yeah, who have had these questions, who have faced the stuff that we're referring to.
When I was a bishop and even people say presidency and I still have people come and say, I'm
thinking about walking away and before I do, I want to, anyway, Scott.
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Well, so this is spawned from that.
I mean, all of, all of what I'm talking about here today has actually come from a wrestle,
not a wrestle for you, but a wrestle for you to put it together in a way that makes sense
for others.
And so this has been a labor of love, no doubt.
And I can, I can attest that it's been a labor.
David and I have been sending emails and text back and forth as he's working on this.
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And yeah, so.
And it seems to have been my lot pretty early on in my married life to be in certain places
or certain positions or no certain people who have really, really struggled with their
understanding of testimony, conversion, and to overcome the gospel of assimilation and
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try to help them understand the gospel of redemption.
And, and, and even it's really some hardcore apostates.
Both, both when I lived in Highland, Utah, before we moved to Minnesota, then even in
Minnesota, as a member of Sake Presidency and in a Mission Presidency, I was given an
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assignment to deal with some of the apostates there.
So anyway, that just seems to have been part of my life is trying to help individuals who
have hardcore apostatized from the church, like my relationship with Ron Lafferty and
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Ken A.C. and others who went off and started having their own revelations and starting
their own church to two individuals who have just kind of quietly slipped out the back door
because they just didn't feel like the church was for them anymore.
So after all of those experiences, I've, I have just decided that I've got to, I've
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got to help others understand why I choose, especially my family, why I choose to believe
and why I choose to stay.
So that's, that's what this is about.
And I, I kind of broke it down into four, four main parts, you know, evidences and witnesses.
We talked about some of this last week.
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I know evidences and witnesses.
And that's the first one.
The second one is, and then there's parts under each of these, but the second one is personal
experience.
The third one is my knowledge and relationship of the Godhead or with the Godhead and then
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just certain true points, very true points of, of doctrine.
I love that phrase in the book of Mormon, which is in there about three or four times,
the very points of doctrine.
And I, I love that.
And those are the four reasons why I choose to believe and stay in the restored gospel
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of Jesus Christ.
And, and maybe before we just jump into this, Scott, you know, C.S. Lewis a long time ago
said this about Christianity.
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it,
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but because by it, I see everything else.
In other words, Christianity for C.S. Lewis, the light and the truths of Christianity didn't
just change him, but changed how he saw everything else.
Changed his world.
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And I could say the same thing about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
You know, let's, let's not, let's not blow right past that.
There's an invitation there.
Well, there's an invitation for all of us.
I mean, so how does, how, how, because of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that lens that
we see our world through, exactly, how is our life different because of that lens that
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we see through.
I wonder if people and for some people it hasn't been all positive for sure.
Absolutely.
But that's more, that's the church.
That's not the gospel and people need to again distinguish between what they believe in what
they, anyway.
I believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ God as I believe that the sun has risen,
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not because I see it or know it, but because by it, I see and know everything else.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, that's how I feel about it.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
I mean, we, we just have so much to be thankful for so many principles and points of doctrine
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that doctrine changes behavior more than a discussion of behavior changes behavior.
Just that idea, you know, has, has permeated everything that I see, everything that I think,
everything that I feel and everything that I do.
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So those are the four kind of points.
And then under each of those four points, and those are again, evidences and witnesses,
personal experiences, knowledge and relationship with the Godhead and then true points of doctrine.
Under each of those, I have a sub points that, that I make and under evidences and witnesses,
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God, I have the witness of the Holy Ghost, the, the edification, enlightenment, the daily
revelations.
So Scott on that, on that point of having the Holy Ghost and revelation daily, daily
revelation, I love this verse, you know, Mormon's commentary on those who were faithful in the
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time of great wickedness of secret combinations and a time and culture that I think very much
mirrors our time and culture.
Mormon gives us a little key, a little insight here as to what help those individuals, righteous
individuals, endure in the church.
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So Helman 11, 23.
There began to be much strife, but it came to pass.
Do we have a lot of strife?
Well, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a, you know, great question, right?
Do we have a lot of strife?
Publicly, privately?
All of that.
All of that.
We live in a time of strife.
We live in a time of strife.
There began to be much strife, but it came to pass that Nephi and Lehi and many of their
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brethren who knew concerning true points of doctrine.
Okay, first thing, they knew the true points of doctrine.
The doctrine was, was really important to them, not, not, not so much some of the other
stuff, but the doctrine.
Okay, keep going.
Having many revelations daily.
There you go.
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Therefore they did preach unto the people in as much that they did put an end to their
strife in that same year.
So what's the anecdote to strife?
So true doctrine, right?
And daily revelations.
Daily revelations.
Fill in the Holy Ghost daily.
I just, wow, I, I, I just don't know what we would, what I would do without the gift
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of the Holy Ghost in my life, Scott.
And I'm really, I know, I know Heavenly Father and His love and mercy gives all man the light
of Christ and light of Christ can, can be with everyone.
And even the power of the Holy Ghost can impress and inspire and edify and enlighten and bless
all of God's children.
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But wow, the gift of the Holy Ghost and to feel His presence and let Him administer the
love of God and the atonement of Jesus Christ in my life daily.
Why would I, how or why would I ever choose to walk away from that?
Yeah.
So maybe I could just comment just for real briefly on that, you know, when we think about
(33:46):
all of the strife that we have, and we all have it.
I was thinking about some of the strife that was really kind of tipping me over the other
day.
You know, it was, it was getting to me.
It was really, really getting to me.
I know, and in my head, I know all this stuff.
And in my heart, it's indelibly etched on my heart.
Or I know all this in my head, but in my heart, I know the truth and I know from where all
(34:10):
comfort comes and stuff like that.
But it's really sometimes easy for me to get caught up in my fallen self and let the
strife seem bigger than maybe I should let it.
But I got thinking about, and I, you know, I do what I do.
I went for a little walk and I am praying and I'm communing and I'm trying to just cry
out in my own little way, you know, I need to be better.
(34:33):
I need to get this right in my life because I, it's not feeling right.
And it occurred to me and then I knew this.
I've taught it.
I've learned it.
We've talked about it on the podcast multiple, multiple times.
And if I have the spirit of the heavenly father spirit in my life daily, that they may always
have his spirit to be with them, that kind of experience.
(34:53):
Right.
The sacrament promise.
If I have that, then the strife is really not as big a strife as it seems.
And in some cases, not all, and I'm not, and I won't say that in all cases because I know
that as part of Heavenly Father's plan, it's intended for us to feel strife and grief and
all of these, I get that.
(35:14):
So I know that not all my strife will be alleviated, but the strife that's unnecessary definitely
can be, especially as I court the spirit of the Holy Ghost in my life.
Yeah.
No, exactly, Scott.
You know, I, the supernal gift of the Holy Ghost that was elder packer, present packer's
description, the supernal gift of the Holy Ghost is, is one of the really the, one of
(35:40):
the most precious points of doctrine of the restoration.
And it happens to be the one that Joseph Smith chose to accentuate when asked by President
Martin Van Buren when he went back to Washington, DC, seeking redress from all of the, the property
(36:01):
they had lost in Missouri.
And in this little conversation, it's reported that Martin Van Buren said, well, what is
it about you Mormons that set you apart or well, how are you different from, from other
you know, Christians and churches?
And they hadn't, Joseph Smith said, we have the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(36:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, Scott, I have a, I have a testimony of that.
And I know that through the gift of the Holy Ghost, I've been converted because he has,
he's the one that administers, he's the messenger and the administrator of the Atonement of Jesus
Christ in my life.
(36:43):
He's the messenger and the administrator of the love of God in my life.
He is the, the, the, the motivator, the comforter, the, I mean, man, I just that gift of loan.
Why, why would somebody walk away from that and not want that in their life?
(37:05):
So that's, that's a really, maybe that's number one for me is the evidence and witnesses
that I've received from the Holy Ghost and have the precious gift of the Holy Ghost to
be my guide and comforter is worth more than all the riches of the world to me.
(37:30):
I, I can almost hear some of our listeners because I have felt this way.
You know, I've spent a lot of my time in the margins of society, you know, especially
of the church and I don't know, but there was a time when I was sort of, and I'm, and
I'm wondering if as I might have at some point in my life as I hear this say, okay, that's
(37:51):
a great, but how do I get the Holy Ghost?
Yeah.
How?
I mean, I, you know, and I, and I, even though I think I may know it and I, you know, and
I feel like this is a checkbox experience, checkbox experience for me so that I can have
the Holy Ghost in my life.
It's not necessarily the case.
Well, I, I, I have just two things to say about that.
(38:13):
Number one, I used to believe, and I've said this before, I used to believe when I was
a full-time missionary that it was so easy to lose the Holy Ghost and he was so hard
to get to be my daily constant companion.
That's kind of how I felt about it.
Yeah, I've heard you say that.
It just seemed like it was so easy to lose him.
(38:34):
You know, Scott, all these years later now, 50 years later, I'm just, I'm just the opposite
on that.
Yeah.
It is really hard to lose the Holy Ghost.
Okay.
So what do you think is the difference?
Do you think the difference between then and now is that you're living your life more
righteously now and it's more abundant, or do you think it's just a way that you see it
(38:55):
differently?
Both.
Yes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yes, both.
Yeah.
And a lot of it really is, is my knowledge and understanding of the love of God and who
the Holy Ghost is and his purpose and just the idea that he really does want to be with
(39:16):
me.
God really wants me to have.
God really knows I need to have the Holy Ghost to guide and direct me.
And even in, even in some of my worst moments, God, I have tried to listen, remember, I think
a lot of it said I remember and I try to remember and listen to the Holy Ghost and he's always,
(39:42):
he's always been able to bless me.
So I, I think it's, I don't, I don't think I'm any better now than I necessarily was
as a full-time missionary.
I was pretty good missionary and worked hard to be obedient and true and faithful.
And I mean, I was full-time and anyway, I, I don't know that I don't think I'm any more
(40:07):
righteous now than I was then, I just have a clear understanding of who God is and the
power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in my life and daily repentance, daily repentance
and understand, you know, that the Holy Ghost really wants to be my friend and he really
(40:31):
wants to be with me.
If I choose him, he most, he almost always will be with me.
So anyway, that's my first point.
My second point is that we just need to be more mindful of it.
You know, I think, I think the Holy Ghost is really, if you're a baptized member of
the church, you receive the Holy Ghost, receive the Holy Ghost.
(40:57):
The problem isn't the Holy Ghost wanting to be with us.
It's not, it's the problem.
If we don't feel the Holy Ghost, it's not probably because of him.
It's because we have not received him.
So how do we receive him?
And to receive him, you have to desire him.
(41:18):
You have to be mindful of him.
You have to be seeking, thinking, trying to feel him in your life.
Anyway, I, I, I think a lot of it is just controlling our, our thoughts and emotions,
Scott, that if, if one doesn't control their thoughts and emotions, it's impossible to
(41:43):
really feel the Holy Ghost in your life.
Yeah.
I also know that, I know this for a fact.
I know that when I'm under the influence of the adversary or the accuser, or I'm even,
even if I'm not under the influence per se, but I'm just listening even to the shouting
whispers of the, of the adversary, the accuser, then I'm going to believe that.
(42:05):
You know, what does the accuser want me to believe?
The accuser wants me to believe you can't have the Holy Ghost with you.
You don't deserve to have the Holy Ghost with you.
You have, you know, so leave sin, leave sin aside.
You know, you haven't worked hard enough.
You haven't paid the price enough.
You haven't.
Yeah.
And to me, that's key.
You know, you haven't paid the price.
(42:26):
No, I haven't.
But he has.
Yeah.
He has.
And if I align with that price, then I'm entitled to have the, and by aligning with that price,
all I have to do first of all is recognize my dependence on him, right?
Exactly.
And then make a decision to turn my will and life over to him.
Exactly.
(42:46):
Yeah.
It's, it's fun this year that we're studying the doctrine in covenants.
And I really, really love the doctrine in covenants.
All, I love all the scriptures, but you know, I've always seen the doctrine in covenants
is kind of the book of mercy.
And because over and over and over again, Scott, in the doctrine, covenants, it's the
(43:07):
Holy Ghost giving these revelations, right?
The Holy Ghost is the one who's saying, I forgive you of your sins.
That's in there like two dozen times in the revelation, Scott.
I forgive you of your sins.
And this is right after some of them have done some pretty stupid things.
(43:30):
And I've, I've really as, as we study the doctrine, covenants this year, I really encourage
our families and our listeners to really hear the voice of the Lord as administered through
the gift of the Holy Ghost, to hear the mercy and grace that the Holy Ghost whispers to
(43:51):
us if we would listen, if we would receive him.
So Scott, I, this, I know I'm hesitant to share this, but you know, not long ago, I
was just laying in bed and pondering about, you know, my life, my blessings, just, you
(44:18):
know, who, who, who I am and the blessings I've received and being just enveloped, you
know, by a spirit of love and joy and peace and feeling the presence of the, of the Holy
Ghost and the, and the love of God.
(44:39):
And oh man, Scott, what a, what a sweet blessing.
And one that we probably should receive more often, Brigham Young and others, you know,
used to say we live far beneath our privileges.
And I think that's really true when it comes to the, to the witnesses and the peace and
(45:05):
joy that can be administered into our life through the Holy Ghost.
If we would just focus more on how can I receive him, how can I recognize him and how can I
be more true and respond to him, you know, the three Rs receive, recognize and respond
(45:27):
to the Holy Ghost.
And anyway, I, I'm really grateful for the, for that gift, Scott.
So that's just, that's just one of the many reasons why I would choose to, to believe
and stay.
Scott under, under evidence and witnesses.
(45:50):
I also have the teachings, testimony and experiences of others.
Right.
And, you know, we're in the same family and I know there's been many times we've heard,
you know, experiences, same place, same time given by the same people, you know, my mother,
(46:12):
your grandmother, you know, who knew and you knew that they knew.
So there's four kinds of people in the church, Scott.
Based on an Arabian proverb, I think it was Elder Packer who shared this years ago in,
in I think a conference.
There are four kinds of people.
Here we go.
Those who know not, but know not that they know not, they are a fool, shun them.
(46:39):
That's according to the proverb.
That's not me saying that.
Second, those who know not, but know that they know not, they are asleep, wake them.
Those who know not, but know that they know not, they're simple, teach them.
(47:07):
And those who know and know that they know, they are wise, follow them.
That's a, there's those four kinds of people in the church.
And I, we have been in places and times and sometimes, you know, in my home growing up
(47:32):
and we have those family home evenings and we would hear my mother, your grandmother,
my dad, your grandfather and others who would share what they knew and we knew that they
knew.
I'm really grateful for all of those people in my life and that includes many leaders,
(47:56):
family members and friends that have, that have strengthened, you know, my testimony
and my witness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well, and, you know, when you talk about these family and friends and those that were around
and in those settings, I absolutely experienced what you just described.
I did.
I experienced that.
I knew that they knew and that knowing helped me and that knowing helped to establish and
(48:21):
made foundation for my knowing.
It's not the only thing that I base my knowing on, but it created an important foundation
and it was important that we had those in those settings.
But what was even perhaps, and maybe it's an individual approach or reset receiving it
in individually, but it was those moments that I spent alone with grandpa.
(48:43):
Yeah.
Sure.
And I was with my grandfather's, my grandpa Fagan too.
It was those moments that, you know, it was those moments, for example, you know, when
I would be with my grandpa Fagan and he would want to bless the food and tears would pour
down his eyes every time he did because he felt the spirit, you know, and I know that
and I knew, and I knew he knew.
(49:03):
I knew he knew his father in heaven.
He had been through some rough stuff.
He was talking to God.
Yeah.
I knew that.
And you're right.
That is, and, you know, so, you know what, maybe that for me, here's another invitation
for me at least.
Am I providing those experiences for those around me?
Yeah.
Is my life, is the way I'm living my life such that those around me know I know and by my
(49:27):
knowing can enhance their own knowing.
Yeah, that's awesome.
And it wasn't just the quality of the people and the love that we have for the people,
the love they have for us.
But when they said what they said, it was accompanied.
It was carried from their heart by the Holy Ghost into our heart.
(49:49):
I love the way you put that.
So there again, the Holy Ghost is ultimately the witness and testator of the things that
we've heard others to know to be true.
And you said it carried from heart to heart.
There's a difference between heart to heart than brain to brain.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Isn't there?
Oh, for sure.
(50:09):
Yeah.
But both we knew in our minds and our heart, right?
Doctrine comes section nine.
You better study it out.
You better know both make your own decision and cause it to burn inside you.
Yeah, right.
And there's been so many, you know, my study in my teaching, Scott, you know, other evidences
(50:31):
and other witnesses, for example, you know, the testimony of all of the eye and ear witnesses
and the Savior and the miracles and the angels and all of those experiences that are throughout
the history of the church.
(50:52):
And I've received a witness that that really happened.
These are not people who are who are making that up, right?
That Joseph Smith really saw.
And there were there were witnesses along with him, except for the first vision in almost
all of the other times that it's recorded that he saw the Savior or that he saw angels.
(51:13):
There were often most of the time individuals and other witnesses with him.
Yeah.
Oliver Cowdery, you know, never denied.
He bore testimony, tell his deathbed.
He had seen angels that angels had restored the priesthood, John the Baptist, Peter, James
(51:33):
and John that he had seen Moroni, all of those things.
Those are a big part of my testimony of the restoration, Scott.
I love that.
And you know, as you're sharing that, it occurs to me that this principle is important and
can have sway in all important parts of our life.
(51:54):
For example, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic.
I could not over and we'll talk about this when we talk about miracles and, you know,
not today because we're running out of time.
But but this still this still applies because my first Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, I went
there and I heard people who knew.
Yeah.
They knew God too.
(52:14):
Right.
They knew God in a different way than I knew him and in an important way that I would later
come to know him.
But they knew and I knew they knew and they're knowing that what did they know?
They knew that there was power greater than that could restore them to sanity.
If anybody needed sanity restored in their life, it was me.
Right.
And so because I knew that they had experienced that and, you know, literally the spirit again,
(52:39):
bearing witness heart to heart, not brain to brain in those settings, too.
I knew that God lived.
I knew that God loved me and I knew that through him and this instrument of grace that we call
Alcoholics Anonymous and Recovery that I could return to him in a way that I could not have
any other way.
And I needed people before me to know that before I could know it.
(53:01):
Isn't that awesome?
Yeah.
And Scott, that wasn't a church meeting.
No, but God was there.
The Holy Ghost was there.
100%.
The Holy Ghost was there.
The power of the Holy Ghost was witnessing and that's the love of God for all of his
children.
And the Holy Ghost was there administering the effects of Christ's Atonement in the lives
(53:22):
of Alcoholics.
Absolutely.
And he does that every day.
That wasn't a church addiction program.
That wasn't.
No, it wasn't.
I didn't go to that.
Yeah, I didn't go to that until a couple months later.
And I think it's an important point we can make that we don't, church doesn't have any
monopoly on miracles and witnesses and these kinds of things.
(53:44):
I know there's a difference between the power of the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
And I know there's a difference between angels as messengers and angels restoring keys of
priesthood.
You know, there's a difference in that.
But man, there's so many good people on the earth who God has witnessed to and the Holy
Ghost has witnessed to.
(54:07):
And I'm really thankful for all of those people outside the church of other religions even.
You know, the Muslim and the Buddha and the Hindu and others, you know, who I think Heavenly
Father wants them to feel his love for them as well and and he'll administer that to them
through whatever means he decides to do it, which is best for them based upon their situation.
(54:32):
And anyway, so we have eye and ear witnesses of the of the restoration.
And then there's been there's been some times Scott in my life where I've heard living
prophets bear their witness, bear their testimony.
And I not only knew that what they were saying was true, but I knew that he was a prophet.
(54:57):
I've had eye and ear witnesses of the divinity of the call of a prophet in my life.
I don't have to.
We don't have time to share share those.
But there have been multiple share one.
Well, I remember I'll never forget being alone in the Marriott Center.
(55:20):
Well, I was I was alone, but there were 10 others that 10,000 other people there 10 up
10,000 other men there.
Okay, I went alone.
Okay, okay.
I went alone to priesthood meeting and all these brothers in there and I'm setting way
up kind of in the rafters so that I can be alone.
(55:40):
And we're watching a kind of closed circuit.
It was kind of new technology, right in the Marriott Center of priesthood meeting conference
general conference priesthood meeting.
And Spencer W. Kimmel was speaking and I think this was 1978 or 1979.
(56:02):
And I remember him at the near the end of his talks, God, which was a powerful talk
and he was a he was such a powerful prophet for me and in the church in the world really
I thought.
But he said a paraphrase, but it's pretty close.
(56:24):
He said, I bear you my testimony, quoting my predecessor, John Taylor.
I know Jesus Christ lives because I have seen him.
In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
(56:44):
And I remember going, it kind of took my breath away and I about fell off the bench and because
the witness, the power, the feeling again, the Holy Ghost bearing witness of that to
me was undeniable.
And I have heard others who have shared their sacred experiences and I have known by the
(57:11):
power of the Holy Ghost that they knew.
They knew that they knew and I knew it was true.
So I'm really just thankful and hope I don't forget all of these experiences that the Lord
has blessed me with in evidences and witnesses of the truthfulness of the restoration of the
(57:37):
gospel.
Yeah.
And I but I think it's important that we recall those and remembered them and reflect on those.
Those are gifts.
Those are gifts that are given to us to help provide guideposts in our lives.
We have several other points that we'll be making in subsequent podcasts.
I love the direction that I feel like we've been kind of inspired to to take with us.
(57:59):
Maybe you are as well.
Again, don't hesitate to send us your questions.
But above all things, just just reflect, if you will, this week, our invitation will just
be reflective on why is it that we believe you believe and why we choose to stay.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, be well.
Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeem through His Blood.
(00:20):
This is Scott Durfey joined as always by David Durfey
What's up Dave?
How you doing bud?
Good.
Doing good.
Good to be here with you Scott.
It's good to be with you too.
We uh, did you have a good week?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great week.
Kind of slow.
Not.
We uh.
The holiday blues.
Yeah they're here I guess.
(00:42):
I guess.
I uh, the holidays are definitely.
No people have to worry about paying their credit cards.
Yeah not me.
You know January's got its flaws.
Yeah you got that.
Anyway well you know that's I'm happy.
We uh, we started a new semester of Institute.
We actually have our first class tonight.
(01:02):
We did a kickoff last week which was always amazing.
So it's the most.
Dave I'm blown away.
You got to experience this your whole career.
Yeah.
I didn't.
You know for the last five years since Deb and I have been doing this as a calling.
Not a career but as a part of our callings.
It has been just so wonderfully amazing for me to see the valiant people.
(01:28):
I don't want to call them kids but to me they're kids.
The rising generation.
I just, they have a million things going on in their lives.
They're in school.
Some of them are many.
Maybe most even are working to kind of help supplement their way along.
And there you are there on Wednesday nights making a decision to come and partake of the
(01:49):
spirit.
Holy moly.
Yeah.
They're, they're quite amazing.
Yeah.
Just awesome.
And there's a patriarch giving patriarchal blessings.
You know that was very obvious that this is a chosen generation.
I know the prophets have said it but I sure felt that giving blessings and how frequently
(02:11):
a second coming came up in those blessings.
And you have to believe Scott that this is a generation that will help us.
You're in the second coming.
Yeah.
I have a question for you.
You're not prepared for this.
And if you decide you don't want to answer it just tell me and I'll cut it.
But you know when you're giving those patriarchal blessings there's so much sacredness attached
(02:35):
to it.
I get it.
And you know and I don't want to encroach on that areas where I shouldn't.
But you know as a patriarch Dave I'll bet that you have the gift or the revelation given
as a patriarch while you're doing those things to really kind of see those that you're performing
(02:55):
the blessing to or on as Heavenly Father sees them right.
Yeah.
Oh for sure Scott.
That's one of the major, I think there's three major parts of the patriarchal blessing
which I tell all the youth that come and adults too.
That's true for adults as well who get patriarchal blessing that there's three major parts of
(03:15):
their blessings.
Their lineage which is maybe the most underappreciated part of the blessing.
If they understood the new and everlasting covenant they understood the Abrahamic covenant
and if they really understood what that meant and the blessings and responsibilities that
(03:38):
went along with that it would be life changing for them.
And I encourage them to really study what the Abrahamic covenant is and the new and
everlasting covenant.
Anyway that's the first one and the second one is that the patriarch and he tries to
describe it in the best language that he can but there's no language that's equal to the
(04:04):
feelings that he feels is to get a glimpse of how Heavenly Father sees them and that
can be life changing as well if they could just see themselves the way God sees them,
who they are, their preparation in the premortal existence, their purpose and mission here
(04:28):
as well as their potential.
I think that's really a precious part of a patriarchal blessing and the third is to
get maybe some warning, a heads up, some counsel, some exhortation from the Lord based upon
who they are and maybe personal weaknesses or conditions or situations in their life
(04:54):
that the Lord wants to give them some warning or help with.
So yeah I think those are the three major parts of a patriarchal blessing and I'll
bet if everybody would study their blessing they could probably break it down into those
three parts.
Yeah, I love that.
I actually have my patriarchal blessing sits on my desk and I read it with some frequency.
(05:19):
It had been a while but I had it out this morning and it was reading through it.
I think, did Stanley D. Roberts give you your...
No, okay.
He was stake president when I was a missionary so I went on a mission.
He was my stake president.
Alan, brother Alan was a patriarch before Stanley Roberts.
(05:41):
That's not familiar to me but...
After he was stake president he became patriarch.
Right, I remember him as both.
I remember him obviously as stake president and then also when he gave...
In fact he's the one that called my dad to be a bishop.
You want to hear a funny story?
We're getting a little bit off track but when my dad was called to be a bishop I was about
seven years old and I was told by my mom that there's men coming over to talk to dad and
(06:05):
I don't know what I was thinking but it was freaking me out and I couldn't be in there.
And so I don't know why I was so insecure about that but I thought my dad was in big
trouble.
I didn't know if these men had come or were going to take him to jail.
I didn't know what had been going on.
Well you knew your dad better than a lot of people so...
Better than Stanley D. Roberts I for sure.
(06:27):
Yeah, anyway, all joking aside but that kind of...
I'll never forget that.
I sat on the stairs with the door closed because they closed and I was trying to listen to
what was going on in the front room.
Couldn't hear anything.
That created a lot of insecurity in my life that day for whatever reason.
I don't know why.
That's awesome.
(06:47):
Your dad was a great bishop.
I know he was.
Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Well Dave, let's get to the topic today.
We spent quite a little bit of time last week talking about why we choose to believe.
I think we've since then had some maybe revelation or insight into our own lives around that.
But then also, and I'll do this again today, we extended an invitation to those who had
(07:10):
questions as we kind of wind things on the podcast up.
But again, I don't have a date but that's coming.
We would love to entertain or entertain is the wrong word.
We would love to take on some of your questions and I know that we had a few today.
Yeah.
Yeah, so before I forget, I forgot last time and how to throw it in at the end, which makes
(07:34):
it a tad bit awkward.
But before I forget, the place that you can send those questions is he redeems us at gmail.com.
So just send us any questions you may have.
We'll do our best to get to them if it's appropriate.
And there you go.
So we had a couple of questions.
Yeah.
And grateful for those questions and grateful for all the feedback, positive feedback and
(07:59):
negative feedback we get.
So Scott, there's a question.
Somebody asked a question about if one needs a calling an election made sure before they
die.
And grateful for the question and there's there's a lot of things said about calling
(08:25):
election made sure and second endowment and second anointing and and all of those things.
And I I love what Robert J. Matthews used to always say about that.
Scott, when he was asked a question about calling an election or the second anointing
or whatever, he would always say, well, let me just.
(08:48):
Say this.
Those who are talking about it don't know what they're talking about.
And those who aren't talking to those who know about it aren't talking about it.
They ain't talking.
Now I know there's exceptions to that because I know there's some people that probably do
(09:08):
talk about it.
Anyway, that's kind of how I feel about it.
Those who talk about that stuff probably don't know what they're talking about.
And those who know about it, they ain't talking.
But in regards to specifically if you need your calling election made sure before you
die, the answer would be no with a maybe a caveat that elder Bruce Armacon key in a funeral
(09:38):
address at S. Dilworth Young's funeral.
So anyone that wants no can look, look that talk up use AI and look that talk up.
He said in essence that any righteous person who dies, the moment they die, they get their
calling election made sure.
(09:59):
So you don't have to have your call to election made sure before you die.
But if you're faithful, you'll receive it soon after you die.
So I that's, that's all I know about about that.
And there's other things I, you know, have studied and know or people who think they
(10:23):
know have said, but it's not really worth repeating.
The other thing that comes to my mind when, when things like this come up, you know, it's
interesting and, and you know, I got to admit sometimes I like to be the one that goes down
out of curiosity, some of those rabbit holes as well.
But what I got to remember is something that you taught me a long time ago when I had a
question about Dr. Nold that, that just wasn't 100% clear to me, you know, acceptably clear
(10:49):
to me.
I think it's in the, is it DNC 2930 or something like that?
Yeah, God hasn't made all his judgments, no, no, no, no, man.
But we know enough.
Yeah.
And I, and I've heard you say that and I've heard Elder Anderson say that we don't know
everything, but we know enough.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think God's really loved for us and his mercy.
(11:10):
Yeah.
Awards us.
He has not revealed all of his judgments unto men.
Not interesting.
And what none of us really know.
I mean, the, the, the questions such as can you progress from kingdom to kingdom?
I know Elder McConkey and others made some pretty strong statements about that, but I
also know that that's their opinions, that there's a, there's no official doctrine on
(11:34):
that and God has chosen not to reveal that to us.
There's, it's, it's just as important, I think Scott in the gospel of Jesus Christ to
know what you know.
And it's also just as important to know what has not been revealed.
So a lot of people think a lot of things or even teach a lot of things that God himself
(11:55):
has not revealed.
And we have to, we have to be really careful to understand that.
And then there are some things that are just too sacred to talk about in forums such as
this or over the pulpit or anyplace else.
It's just, it's, it's too sacred.
There are certain mysteries of the kingdom that are, are really sweet and powerful that
(12:20):
one over time will be able to understand and receive.
If not in this life in the, in the life to come.
I, I just think it's really important that people like Peter, Peter exhorted us, the
saints in his epistle in the New Testament to, to seek their calling and election.
(12:41):
We should all seek to be faithful and not worry too much about it because it's only
a matter of time before we do receive it in this life or the next.
Anyway, so I hope there were, there were some other questions, but maybe we'll just kind
of take you one or two each, uh, each week Scott and talk about it before we jump into
(13:01):
our main.
Well, so Dave, last week we talked about this concept about why do I stay?
Right?
Um, and, and why do I choose to believe and stay in the restored gospel?
Yeah.
And, um, I didn't say church.
I said restored gospel.
That's there's a difference.
You know, I, I just think it's really important people understand and delineate between the
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restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the church.
They're not the same.
I know the church is the vehicle that moves the restored gospel of Jesus Christ forward.
But wow, that, that vehicle has a lot of bumps and bruises on it.
Well, and the church is also the reservoir that contains the covenants.
Yes.
That are, that we need to keep those sacred and a lot of the scriptures, the Holy Scriptures,
(13:50):
the, the organization and prophets, seers and revelators and, uh, the restored gospel
of Jesus Christ.
God is, uh, is really the precious cargo.
It's really the, the heart, but, um, the, the vehicle that moves it forward in the body
that, uh, that helps take care and protect that heart is really, really important.
(14:17):
But it's certainly imperfect.
And there's been so many, all everybody, you can't be a member of the church and not, not
to be aware of, of some of the weaknesses and imperfections of, of the church, meaning
(14:38):
the organization, maybe certain historical events and the lives of individuals both past,
present and will be in the future.
Because as long as you have a, a mortal group of people running an organization, it's not
going to be a perfect organization.
(14:59):
We've all had experiences with that.
And, and you know what?
And quite frankly, and honestly, I've been on both ends of that, you know, I've been
the guy that said something stupid.
I think we all have a guy that got a little thin skin.
I think we all have.
I said too.
So yeah, I've offended people and I've been offended.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I, when I think of that, I think, you know, I just have to extend grace to the extent
(15:24):
that I hope it's extended.
Yeah, exactly.
That's, that's really good.
Yeah.
So anyway, I, I've entitled this document, Why I Choose to Believe and Stay in the Restored
Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And it really is a choice.
And I just, I just hope everybody understands that it's their personal choice.
(15:52):
And then it's the choice of others and that, that nobody is, is forced to stay and nobody's
forced to leave.
I mean, second Nephi, right?
You can choose to act or be acted upon.
And we have our agency.
But boy, Scott, it's, it's hard for me to understand really, because I haven't experienced
(16:18):
it and I don't want to judge anyone or condemn anyone for whatever reasons have chosen to
walk away.
And maybe it's permanently, I would like to believe that most of those who walk away
may be temporarily, that there will be events or experiences in their life or the Lord will
(16:40):
take their, their hand or their by the hand, the Lord will take them by the hand and maybe
change their course of direction or events will happen in their life.
And a lot of them will come back.
I know that I, there's lots of stories like that.
So you hear about all these people who are leaving.
It would be really interesting to know 20 years later how many have returned.
(17:06):
And I'm sure I, who knows, knowing the speculation to, to guess, but I know a good number of
them have returned already that I've known who have left.
And I just think it's really critical to, to, for each individual member of the church
who believes they have a testimony to do two things.
(17:28):
Number one, know why they believe, why they choose to believe and stay.
And number two, to continue to grow it, to continue to develop it, continue to strengthen
their knowledge and testimony.
And there's a difference to Scott, not just between gospel and church.
There's, it's really important to distinguish between the gospel of Jesus Christ, the restored
(17:53):
gospel of Jesus Christ and the church.
And it's equally as important to distinguish between a testimony and conversion.
And lots of people, I think have testimonies, but if they haven't truly been converted under
the Lord, then boy, they're, they're on pretty shaky ground.
Yeah.
You know, I, I believe that who or what that we have that testimony in and that conversion
(18:21):
in is really critical to, because, you know, I know that there are those, I'm not pointing
fingers, I've been one of these people in the past, and there's really, you know, a
fine line between the, that delineates between the two, two concepts I'm about to, to mention
here.
One is, is that sometimes people have a testimony or a conversion to the church, to the organization,
(18:44):
to the institution, to what it gives to all the good that it does for all of the redeeming
and redemptive qualities and, and how that it makes our lives better.
It's a, you know, through assimilation, and that's not what we're after here, but, but
through assimilation, the church gives us a very, very good pattern for living.
(19:04):
And that if we follow that pattern for living, we're surely going to have the spirit abundant
in our lives.
We're surely going to have blessings in our lives.
We're surely going to have a level and a measure of joy increase because we're adhering to
principles that align us with those kinds of, just through the law, those kinds of things
that come our way.
And I would hang on just a minute because I'd call that a testimony in the church.
(19:26):
I personally don't think you can be converted to the church because conversion to me means
change.
Okay.
If a person is converted, yeah, if you convert something, yeah, you change something, yeah,
and conversion to, I don't think it's possible to be converted to the Lord, to the church.
Sorry.
I don't think that conversion is, is associated with church.
(19:49):
Okay.
So you can know it's true.
You can love it.
You can like it.
You can do all those things as far as the church is concerned.
You can even say, I know it's true.
I know it's the only true and living church.
But if you're not converted to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I know we haven't been changed.
If the church hasn't transformed you, if the gospel is not working your life, I honestly,
(20:14):
Scott, I don't, I don't know how those people will survive or stay in the church at all.
And the reason I think you're saying this, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Alma 23, right,
verse six, we learned that.
Yes.
Five times in that chapter.
Those who were converted unto the Lord never did fall away.
Five times.
But that's the difference though.
(20:35):
That's the difference.
Okay.
But so I'm going to, I'm going to disagree with you.
Okay.
I believe that because it says they were converted to the Lord.
Yeah.
You're saying that you don't believe somebody can be converted to the church, but I think
that the church can create some conversion in us and change us.
I've seen it.
(20:55):
You've seen it.
I mean, I don't really want to dwell on this, but I listened to a podcast of a friend who
was a former bishop and now has left the church.
He was converted.
He was changed because of the church, but he wasn't converted to the Lord.
Yeah.
And I know that maybe we're getting into semantics here, but, but, but that's to me, that's the
thing.
(21:16):
If somebody is just focuses on, and we can choose not to use word conversion, and that's
fine with me, but if somebody just focuses on their relationship with the church itself,
the institution or whatever.
And moving up, moving up and, you know, comparing themselves and they're just trying to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(21:36):
And I have no idea that we started our podcast.
I think the very first one in season one, when, when I said paraphrasing Robert J. Matthews
again, I said the gospel of Jesus Christ is not assimilation.
It's redemption, redemption.
And that's the delineation to me.
(21:58):
You know, the church is, we can assimilate only with and through the redemption of Jesus
Christ and the blessings made available to us because of his atonement.
That's the only place that redemption comes in.
And so for me, that's where in our, when we read about these people who were converted
on to the Lord, never did fall away.
Their conversion was to the Lord, not their church to the Lord converted under the Lord,
(22:24):
converted under the Lord, converted under the Lord.
Yeah.
That's the key.
It's actually Alma 23.
And even, even Scott in turn of turn to let's, let's turn to fourth Nephi.
You know, after, after Jesus appears to the people in third Nephi and all of the healing
and forgiving and the miracles associated with his appearance to the people in third
(22:50):
Nephi, oh man, for 200 years, Scott.
Yeah.
No one, nobody falls away and for almost 200 years.
Alma eventually pride and other things start set into the church and people start to fall
away.
But for almost 200 years and let me see your scriptures there.
(23:12):
And I love this, I love this description of how it says that there was no contention.
There was no contention.
There's no contention.
I love this description.
And now I Mormon would the Esha know that the people had multiplied in so much they
spread upon all the face of the land and that they had become exceedingly rich because
(23:36):
of their prosperity in Christ.
In Christ.
See, that's, that's the difference.
That is what, that's what made it possible for them.
And then, then this verse, and it came to pass.
There was no contention in land because of the love of God, which to me is manifested
in Jesus Christ, the love of God, which did dwell in the hearts of the people.
(24:01):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's conversion.
That's conversion.
And I, I know a lot of people have had testimonies of the church and they go on some go on missions
and they have great testimonies of the church and they're, they're doing the best they can
to keep all the commandments and there were, but they never really have experienced some
(24:25):
of the great miracles of the atonement of Jesus Christ and redemption in their lives.
And so this kind of outline that I just kind of created for myself really was, has, has
really been helpful to me and I, I hope it will be helpful to others.
Well, Dave, you say you created this for yourself.
(24:47):
Let's expand on that just a little bit.
This wasn't just created for yourself.
You have had people come to you.
Oh, so many.
Yeah, who have had these questions, who have faced the stuff that we're referring to.
When I was a bishop and even people say presidency and I still have people come and say, I'm
thinking about walking away and before I do, I want to, anyway, Scott.
(25:09):
Well, so this is spawned from that.
I mean, all of, all of what I'm talking about here today has actually come from a wrestle,
not a wrestle for you, but a wrestle for you to put it together in a way that makes sense
for others.
And so this has been a labor of love, no doubt.
And I can, I can attest that it's been a labor.
David and I have been sending emails and text back and forth as he's working on this.
(25:32):
And yeah, so.
And it seems to have been my lot pretty early on in my married life to be in certain places
or certain positions or no certain people who have really, really struggled with their
understanding of testimony, conversion, and to overcome the gospel of assimilation and
(26:00):
try to help them understand the gospel of redemption.
And, and, and even it's really some hardcore apostates.
Both, both when I lived in Highland, Utah, before we moved to Minnesota, then even in
Minnesota, as a member of Sake Presidency and in a Mission Presidency, I was given an
(26:21):
assignment to deal with some of the apostates there.
So anyway, that just seems to have been part of my life is trying to help individuals who
have hardcore apostatized from the church, like my relationship with Ron Lafferty and
(26:47):
Ken A.C. and others who went off and started having their own revelations and starting
their own church to two individuals who have just kind of quietly slipped out the back door
because they just didn't feel like the church was for them anymore.
So after all of those experiences, I've, I have just decided that I've got to, I've
(27:13):
got to help others understand why I choose, especially my family, why I choose to believe
and why I choose to stay.
So that's, that's what this is about.
And I, I kind of broke it down into four, four main parts, you know, evidences and witnesses.
We talked about some of this last week.
(27:33):
I know evidences and witnesses.
And that's the first one.
The second one is, and then there's parts under each of these, but the second one is personal
experience.
The third one is my knowledge and relationship of the Godhead or with the Godhead and then
(27:54):
just certain true points, very true points of, of doctrine.
I love that phrase in the book of Mormon, which is in there about three or four times,
the very points of doctrine.
And I, I love that.
And those are the four reasons why I choose to believe and stay in the restored gospel
(28:22):
of Jesus Christ.
And, and maybe before we just jump into this, Scott, you know, C.S. Lewis a long time ago
said this about Christianity.
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it,
(28:42):
but because by it, I see everything else.
In other words, Christianity for C.S. Lewis, the light and the truths of Christianity didn't
just change him, but changed how he saw everything else.
Changed his world.
(29:04):
And I could say the same thing about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
You know, let's, let's not, let's not blow right past that.
There's an invitation there.
Well, there's an invitation for all of us.
I mean, so how does, how, how, because of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that lens that
we see our world through, exactly, how is our life different because of that lens that
(29:25):
we see through.
I wonder if people and for some people it hasn't been all positive for sure.
Absolutely.
But that's more, that's the church.
That's not the gospel and people need to again distinguish between what they believe in what
they, anyway.
I believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ God as I believe that the sun has risen,
(29:50):
not because I see it or know it, but because by it, I see and know everything else.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, that's how I feel about it.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
I mean, we, we just have so much to be thankful for so many principles and points of doctrine
(30:15):
that doctrine changes behavior more than a discussion of behavior changes behavior.
Just that idea, you know, has, has permeated everything that I see, everything that I think,
everything that I feel and everything that I do.
(30:37):
So those are the four kind of points.
And then under each of those four points, and those are again, evidences and witnesses,
personal experiences, knowledge and relationship with the Godhead and then true points of doctrine.
Under each of those, I have a sub points that, that I make and under evidences and witnesses,
(31:03):
God, I have the witness of the Holy Ghost, the, the edification, enlightenment, the daily
revelations.
So Scott on that, on that point of having the Holy Ghost and revelation daily, daily
revelation, I love this verse, you know, Mormon's commentary on those who were faithful in the
(31:29):
time of great wickedness of secret combinations and a time and culture that I think very much
mirrors our time and culture.
Mormon gives us a little key, a little insight here as to what help those individuals, righteous
individuals, endure in the church.
(31:50):
So Helman 11, 23.
There began to be much strife, but it came to pass.
Do we have a lot of strife?
Well, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a, you know, great question, right?
Do we have a lot of strife?
Publicly, privately?
All of that.
All of that.
We live in a time of strife.
We live in a time of strife.
There began to be much strife, but it came to pass that Nephi and Lehi and many of their
(32:14):
brethren who knew concerning true points of doctrine.
Okay, first thing, they knew the true points of doctrine.
The doctrine was, was really important to them, not, not, not so much some of the other
stuff, but the doctrine.
Okay, keep going.
Having many revelations daily.
There you go.
(32:35):
Therefore they did preach unto the people in as much that they did put an end to their
strife in that same year.
So what's the anecdote to strife?
So true doctrine, right?
And daily revelations.
Daily revelations.
Fill in the Holy Ghost daily.
I just, wow, I, I, I just don't know what we would, what I would do without the gift
(33:00):
of the Holy Ghost in my life, Scott.
And I'm really, I know, I know Heavenly Father and His love and mercy gives all man the light
of Christ and light of Christ can, can be with everyone.
And even the power of the Holy Ghost can impress and inspire and edify and enlighten and bless
all of God's children.
(33:22):
But wow, the gift of the Holy Ghost and to feel His presence and let Him administer the
love of God and the atonement of Jesus Christ in my life daily.
Why would I, how or why would I ever choose to walk away from that?
Yeah.
So maybe I could just comment just for real briefly on that, you know, when we think about
(33:46):
all of the strife that we have, and we all have it.
I was thinking about some of the strife that was really kind of tipping me over the other
day.
You know, it was, it was getting to me.
It was really, really getting to me.
I know, and in my head, I know all this stuff.
And in my heart, it's indelibly etched on my heart.
Or I know all this in my head, but in my heart, I know the truth and I know from where all
(34:10):
comfort comes and stuff like that.
But it's really sometimes easy for me to get caught up in my fallen self and let the
strife seem bigger than maybe I should let it.
But I got thinking about, and I, you know, I do what I do.
I went for a little walk and I am praying and I'm communing and I'm trying to just cry
out in my own little way, you know, I need to be better.
(34:33):
I need to get this right in my life because I, it's not feeling right.
And it occurred to me and then I knew this.
I've taught it.
I've learned it.
We've talked about it on the podcast multiple, multiple times.
And if I have the spirit of the heavenly father spirit in my life daily, that they may always
have his spirit to be with them, that kind of experience.
(34:53):
Right.
The sacrament promise.
If I have that, then the strife is really not as big a strife as it seems.
And in some cases, not all, and I'm not, and I won't say that in all cases because I know
that as part of Heavenly Father's plan, it's intended for us to feel strife and grief and
all of these, I get that.
(35:14):
So I know that not all my strife will be alleviated, but the strife that's unnecessary definitely
can be, especially as I court the spirit of the Holy Ghost in my life.
Yeah.
No, exactly, Scott.
You know, I, the supernal gift of the Holy Ghost that was elder packer, present packer's
description, the supernal gift of the Holy Ghost is, is one of the really the, one of
(35:40):
the most precious points of doctrine of the restoration.
And it happens to be the one that Joseph Smith chose to accentuate when asked by President
Martin Van Buren when he went back to Washington, DC, seeking redress from all of the, the property
(36:01):
they had lost in Missouri.
And in this little conversation, it's reported that Martin Van Buren said, well, what is
it about you Mormons that set you apart or well, how are you different from, from other
you know, Christians and churches?
And they hadn't, Joseph Smith said, we have the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(36:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, Scott, I have a, I have a testimony of that.
And I know that through the gift of the Holy Ghost, I've been converted because he has,
he's the one that administers, he's the messenger and the administrator of the Atonement of Jesus
Christ in my life.
(36:43):
He's the messenger and the administrator of the love of God in my life.
He is the, the, the, the motivator, the comforter, the, I mean, man, I just that gift of loan.
Why, why would somebody walk away from that and not want that in their life?
(37:05):
So that's, that's a really, maybe that's number one for me is the evidence and witnesses
that I've received from the Holy Ghost and have the precious gift of the Holy Ghost to
be my guide and comforter is worth more than all the riches of the world to me.
(37:30):
I, I can almost hear some of our listeners because I have felt this way.
You know, I've spent a lot of my time in the margins of society, you know, especially
of the church and I don't know, but there was a time when I was sort of, and I'm, and
I'm wondering if as I might have at some point in my life as I hear this say, okay, that's
(37:51):
a great, but how do I get the Holy Ghost?
Yeah.
How?
I mean, I, you know, and I, and I, even though I think I may know it and I, you know, and
I feel like this is a checkbox experience, checkbox experience for me so that I can have
the Holy Ghost in my life.
It's not necessarily the case.
Well, I, I, I have just two things to say about that.
(38:13):
Number one, I used to believe, and I've said this before, I used to believe when I was
a full-time missionary that it was so easy to lose the Holy Ghost and he was so hard
to get to be my daily constant companion.
That's kind of how I felt about it.
Yeah, I've heard you say that.
It just seemed like it was so easy to lose him.
(38:34):
You know, Scott, all these years later now, 50 years later, I'm just, I'm just the opposite
on that.
Yeah.
It is really hard to lose the Holy Ghost.
Okay.
So what do you think is the difference?
Do you think the difference between then and now is that you're living your life more
righteously now and it's more abundant, or do you think it's just a way that you see it
(38:55):
differently?
Both.
Yes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yes, both.
Yeah.
And a lot of it really is, is my knowledge and understanding of the love of God and who
the Holy Ghost is and his purpose and just the idea that he really does want to be with
(39:16):
me.
God really wants me to have.
God really knows I need to have the Holy Ghost to guide and direct me.
And even in, even in some of my worst moments, God, I have tried to listen, remember, I think
a lot of it said I remember and I try to remember and listen to the Holy Ghost and he's always,
(39:42):
he's always been able to bless me.
So I, I think it's, I don't, I don't think I'm any better now than I necessarily was
as a full-time missionary.
I was pretty good missionary and worked hard to be obedient and true and faithful.
And I mean, I was full-time and anyway, I, I don't know that I don't think I'm any more
(40:07):
righteous now than I was then, I just have a clear understanding of who God is and the
power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in my life and daily repentance, daily repentance
and understand, you know, that the Holy Ghost really wants to be my friend and he really
(40:31):
wants to be with me.
If I choose him, he most, he almost always will be with me.
So anyway, that's my first point.
My second point is that we just need to be more mindful of it.
You know, I think, I think the Holy Ghost is really, if you're a baptized member of
the church, you receive the Holy Ghost, receive the Holy Ghost.
(40:57):
The problem isn't the Holy Ghost wanting to be with us.
It's not, it's the problem.
If we don't feel the Holy Ghost, it's not probably because of him.
It's because we have not received him.
So how do we receive him?
And to receive him, you have to desire him.
(41:18):
You have to be mindful of him.
You have to be seeking, thinking, trying to feel him in your life.
Anyway, I, I, I think a lot of it is just controlling our, our thoughts and emotions,
Scott, that if, if one doesn't control their thoughts and emotions, it's impossible to
(41:43):
really feel the Holy Ghost in your life.
Yeah.
I also know that, I know this for a fact.
I know that when I'm under the influence of the adversary or the accuser, or I'm even,
even if I'm not under the influence per se, but I'm just listening even to the shouting
whispers of the, of the adversary, the accuser, then I'm going to believe that.
(42:05):
You know, what does the accuser want me to believe?
The accuser wants me to believe you can't have the Holy Ghost with you.
You don't deserve to have the Holy Ghost with you.
You have, you know, so leave sin, leave sin aside.
You know, you haven't worked hard enough.
You haven't paid the price enough.
You haven't.
Yeah.
And to me, that's key.
You know, you haven't paid the price.
(42:26):
No, I haven't.
But he has.
Yeah.
He has.
And if I align with that price, then I'm entitled to have the, and by aligning with that price,
all I have to do first of all is recognize my dependence on him, right?
Exactly.
And then make a decision to turn my will and life over to him.
Exactly.
(42:46):
Yeah.
It's, it's fun this year that we're studying the doctrine in covenants.
And I really, really love the doctrine in covenants.
All, I love all the scriptures, but you know, I've always seen the doctrine in covenants
is kind of the book of mercy.
And because over and over and over again, Scott, in the doctrine, covenants, it's the
(43:07):
Holy Ghost giving these revelations, right?
The Holy Ghost is the one who's saying, I forgive you of your sins.
That's in there like two dozen times in the revelation, Scott.
I forgive you of your sins.
And this is right after some of them have done some pretty stupid things.
(43:30):
And I've, I've really as, as we study the doctrine, covenants this year, I really encourage
our families and our listeners to really hear the voice of the Lord as administered through
the gift of the Holy Ghost, to hear the mercy and grace that the Holy Ghost whispers to
(43:51):
us if we would listen, if we would receive him.
So Scott, I, this, I know I'm hesitant to share this, but you know, not long ago, I
was just laying in bed and pondering about, you know, my life, my blessings, just, you
(44:18):
know, who, who, who I am and the blessings I've received and being just enveloped, you
know, by a spirit of love and joy and peace and feeling the presence of the, of the Holy
Ghost and the, and the love of God.
(44:39):
And oh man, Scott, what a, what a sweet blessing.
And one that we probably should receive more often, Brigham Young and others, you know,
used to say we live far beneath our privileges.
And I think that's really true when it comes to the, to the witnesses and the peace and
(45:05):
joy that can be administered into our life through the Holy Ghost.
If we would just focus more on how can I receive him, how can I recognize him and how can I
be more true and respond to him, you know, the three Rs receive, recognize and respond
(45:27):
to the Holy Ghost.
And anyway, I, I'm really grateful for the, for that gift, Scott.
So that's just, that's just one of the many reasons why I would choose to, to believe
and stay.
Scott under, under evidence and witnesses.
(45:50):
I also have the teachings, testimony and experiences of others.
Right.
And, you know, we're in the same family and I know there's been many times we've heard,
you know, experiences, same place, same time given by the same people, you know, my mother,
(46:12):
your grandmother, you know, who knew and you knew that they knew.
So there's four kinds of people in the church, Scott.
Based on an Arabian proverb, I think it was Elder Packer who shared this years ago in,
in I think a conference.
There are four kinds of people.
Here we go.
Those who know not, but know not that they know not, they are a fool, shun them.
(46:39):
That's according to the proverb.
That's not me saying that.
Second, those who know not, but know that they know not, they are asleep, wake them.
Those who know not, but know that they know not, they're simple, teach them.
(47:07):
And those who know and know that they know, they are wise, follow them.
That's a, there's those four kinds of people in the church.
And I, we have been in places and times and sometimes, you know, in my home growing up
(47:32):
and we have those family home evenings and we would hear my mother, your grandmother,
my dad, your grandfather and others who would share what they knew and we knew that they
knew.
I'm really grateful for all of those people in my life and that includes many leaders,
(47:56):
family members and friends that have, that have strengthened, you know, my testimony
and my witness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well, and, you know, when you talk about these family and friends and those that were around
and in those settings, I absolutely experienced what you just described.
I did.
I experienced that.
I knew that they knew and that knowing helped me and that knowing helped to establish and
(48:21):
made foundation for my knowing.
It's not the only thing that I base my knowing on, but it created an important foundation
and it was important that we had those in those settings.
But what was even perhaps, and maybe it's an individual approach or reset receiving it
in individually, but it was those moments that I spent alone with grandpa.
(48:43):
Yeah.
Sure.
And I was with my grandfather's, my grandpa Fagan too.
It was those moments that, you know, it was those moments, for example, you know, when
I would be with my grandpa Fagan and he would want to bless the food and tears would pour
down his eyes every time he did because he felt the spirit, you know, and I know that
and I knew, and I knew he knew.
(49:03):
I knew he knew his father in heaven.
He had been through some rough stuff.
He was talking to God.
Yeah.
I knew that.
And you're right.
That is, and, you know, so, you know what, maybe that for me, here's another invitation
for me at least.
Am I providing those experiences for those around me?
Yeah.
Is my life, is the way I'm living my life such that those around me know I know and by my
(49:27):
knowing can enhance their own knowing.
Yeah, that's awesome.
And it wasn't just the quality of the people and the love that we have for the people,
the love they have for us.
But when they said what they said, it was accompanied.
It was carried from their heart by the Holy Ghost into our heart.
(49:49):
I love the way you put that.
So there again, the Holy Ghost is ultimately the witness and testator of the things that
we've heard others to know to be true.
And you said it carried from heart to heart.
There's a difference between heart to heart than brain to brain.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Isn't there?
Oh, for sure.
(50:09):
Yeah.
But both we knew in our minds and our heart, right?
Doctrine comes section nine.
You better study it out.
You better know both make your own decision and cause it to burn inside you.
Yeah, right.
And there's been so many, you know, my study in my teaching, Scott, you know, other evidences
(50:31):
and other witnesses, for example, you know, the testimony of all of the eye and ear witnesses
and the Savior and the miracles and the angels and all of those experiences that are throughout
the history of the church.
(50:52):
And I've received a witness that that really happened.
These are not people who are who are making that up, right?
That Joseph Smith really saw.
And there were there were witnesses along with him, except for the first vision in almost
all of the other times that it's recorded that he saw the Savior or that he saw angels.
(51:13):
There were often most of the time individuals and other witnesses with him.
Yeah.
Oliver Cowdery, you know, never denied.
He bore testimony, tell his deathbed.
He had seen angels that angels had restored the priesthood, John the Baptist, Peter, James
(51:33):
and John that he had seen Moroni, all of those things.
Those are a big part of my testimony of the restoration, Scott.
I love that.
And you know, as you're sharing that, it occurs to me that this principle is important and
can have sway in all important parts of our life.
(51:54):
For example, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic.
I could not over and we'll talk about this when we talk about miracles and, you know,
not today because we're running out of time.
But but this still this still applies because my first Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, I went
there and I heard people who knew.
Yeah.
They knew God too.
(52:14):
Right.
They knew God in a different way than I knew him and in an important way that I would later
come to know him.
But they knew and I knew they knew and they're knowing that what did they know?
They knew that there was power greater than that could restore them to sanity.
If anybody needed sanity restored in their life, it was me.
Right.
And so because I knew that they had experienced that and, you know, literally the spirit again,
(52:39):
bearing witness heart to heart, not brain to brain in those settings, too.
I knew that God lived.
I knew that God loved me and I knew that through him and this instrument of grace that we call
Alcoholics Anonymous and Recovery that I could return to him in a way that I could not have
any other way.
And I needed people before me to know that before I could know it.
(53:01):
Isn't that awesome?
Yeah.
And Scott, that wasn't a church meeting.
No, but God was there.
The Holy Ghost was there.
100%.
The Holy Ghost was there.
The power of the Holy Ghost was witnessing and that's the love of God for all of his
children.
And the Holy Ghost was there administering the effects of Christ's Atonement in the lives
(53:22):
of Alcoholics.
Absolutely.
And he does that every day.
That wasn't a church addiction program.
That wasn't.
No, it wasn't.
I didn't go to that.
Yeah, I didn't go to that until a couple months later.
And I think it's an important point we can make that we don't, church doesn't have any
monopoly on miracles and witnesses and these kinds of things.
(53:44):
I know there's a difference between the power of the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
And I know there's a difference between angels as messengers and angels restoring keys of
priesthood.
You know, there's a difference in that.
But man, there's so many good people on the earth who God has witnessed to and the Holy
Ghost has witnessed to.
(54:07):
And I'm really thankful for all of those people outside the church of other religions even.
You know, the Muslim and the Buddha and the Hindu and others, you know, who I think Heavenly
Father wants them to feel his love for them as well and and he'll administer that to them
through whatever means he decides to do it, which is best for them based upon their situation.
(54:32):
And anyway, so we have eye and ear witnesses of the of the restoration.
And then there's been there's been some times Scott in my life where I've heard living
prophets bear their witness, bear their testimony.
And I not only knew that what they were saying was true, but I knew that he was a prophet.
(54:57):
I've had eye and ear witnesses of the divinity of the call of a prophet in my life.
I don't have to.
We don't have time to share share those.
But there have been multiple share one.
Well, I remember I'll never forget being alone in the Marriott Center.
(55:20):
Well, I was I was alone, but there were 10 others that 10,000 other people there 10 up
10,000 other men there.
Okay, I went alone.
Okay, okay.
I went alone to priesthood meeting and all these brothers in there and I'm setting way
up kind of in the rafters so that I can be alone.
(55:40):
And we're watching a kind of closed circuit.
It was kind of new technology, right in the Marriott Center of priesthood meeting conference
general conference priesthood meeting.
And Spencer W. Kimmel was speaking and I think this was 1978 or 1979.
(56:02):
And I remember him at the near the end of his talks, God, which was a powerful talk
and he was a he was such a powerful prophet for me and in the church in the world really
I thought.
But he said a paraphrase, but it's pretty close.
(56:24):
He said, I bear you my testimony, quoting my predecessor, John Taylor.
I know Jesus Christ lives because I have seen him.
In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
(56:44):
And I remember going, it kind of took my breath away and I about fell off the bench and because
the witness, the power, the feeling again, the Holy Ghost bearing witness of that to
me was undeniable.
And I have heard others who have shared their sacred experiences and I have known by the
(57:11):
power of the Holy Ghost that they knew.
They knew that they knew and I knew it was true.
So I'm really just thankful and hope I don't forget all of these experiences that the Lord
has blessed me with in evidences and witnesses of the truthfulness of the restoration of the
(57:37):
gospel.
Yeah.
And I but I think it's important that we recall those and remembered them and reflect on those.
Those are gifts.
Those are gifts that are given to us to help provide guideposts in our lives.
We have several other points that we'll be making in subsequent podcasts.
I love the direction that I feel like we've been kind of inspired to to take with us.
(57:59):
Maybe you are as well.
Again, don't hesitate to send us your questions.
But above all things, just just reflect, if you will, this week, our invitation will just
be reflective on why is it that we believe you believe and why we choose to stay.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, be well.
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