February 8, 2025 • 61 mins
This episode is filled with heartfelt testimonies, raw honesty, and deep gratitude for the power of Jesus Christ’s Atonement. Whether you’re struggling in your faith, seeking a deeper understanding, or simply wanting to be uplifted, this discussion is for you.
So grab a seat, settle in, and join us as we reflect on why we choose to believe and stay. Thank you for being part of the Redeemed Through His Blood family—we’re so grateful to have you with us on this journey of faith, healing, and transformation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey there everybody, welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. This
(00:20):
is Scott Durfey, as always joined by David Durfey.
So great to be with you, Scott.
So good to be with you. How are you?
I'm good.
Thank you for the subject we're talking about.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you want to talk about your mission call at all yet?
I wish.
I wish.
So you're saying we're doing a couple more episodes at least.
(00:43):
Oh man.
I know I get that.
I get that question from friends all the time.
So when's Dave going?
We don't want the podcast end.
So maybe it's their fault.
Maybe they're praying that you're not.
Maybe that maybe it's holding this holding me back, but whatever.
We want to go sooner the better.
(01:03):
At least we think but the Lord's timing, you know, all the Lord's timing.
Of course.
Yeah.
Grateful that we were able to take care of some things before we go and it seems like
we have more things to take care of.
Well, that's where we go.
That's life.
Speaking of life, this last week we finished up episode or yeah, version number three.
(01:26):
Of this, what has going to definitely be a for at least episode series of why do I choose
to believe great concepts and so forth that we've been discussing over the last several
weeks around that Dave's had some experiences to believe and stay.
Yeah.
(01:47):
I end stay and stay.
A lot of people have believed in they don't stay.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
So you know, really I've got three major points why I believe and stay Scott.
I mean, it's it's evidences and witnesses that I have several sub points under that.
(02:08):
And we've talked about some of those.
That's been the last podcast that we've done.
Then I have personal experience.
The reason I believe and stay several sub points under that.
And then I've got the knowledge of and relationship with the Godhead as the third point, third
major reason, no Roman numeral number three, why I believe and stay.
(02:34):
And then I just have kind of a fourth point, which is true points of doctrine.
So those are kind of the each one has lots of sub points, but that's kind of the basic
outline.
The four reasons why I stay is because of evidences and witnesses, personal experience, my relationship
(02:59):
with the Godhead and true points of doctrine.
Yeah.
Well, and those are all overlapped.
Sorry.
Yeah.
They overlap and we've spent a substantial amount of time on that first new Roman numeral
one.
And then we've talked about evidences and witnesses last episode, we talked a lot about
scripture and the words of prophets.
(03:22):
Specifically, I think we got into a lot of the Book of Mormon scripture and doctrine
and covenants and Pearl of great price.
And even we even talked about some of the proclamations and how how those, either though
maybe not canonized to scripture, how they choose to see those, they're still witnesses,
right?
Yeah.
Evidence and witnesses.
We, you know, we didn't even really talk about the doctrine, covenants being evidence
(03:47):
and witness of eternal marriage, which is a unique, unique, special belief of the, of
the church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints and the restored gospel is nobody else.
No other church that I believe that I know about believes in eternal marriage.
No other church that I know about.
(04:08):
No other religion believes that families can be together forever.
Now I, I just think that's one of the, the great points of doctrine that's been restored
through the doctrine and covenants.
So you know, temples and eternal marriages, we didn't even talk about those last time.
(04:30):
We didn't even talk about the Book of Moses and the writings of Enoch.
I mean, here we have 18, I think it's 180, sorry.
It's like 180 verses on the words of Enoch, the prophet, something like that.
We have like one verse in the Old Testament on Enoch and the city of Enoch.
(04:55):
And in the, in the Book of Moses of the Pearl and Gray price, which is part of the Joseph
Smith translation, we have, we have chapter, a couple of chapters on Enoch in the city
of Enoch.
And oh man, Scott, that, that is so precious.
(05:15):
And that's evidence and witnesses to me that again, only because the Holy Ghost bears witness
of them, that they're true.
They become additional witnesses and evidence of the truthfulness of the restoration.
So anyway, we, we didn't give a real comprehensive as comprehensive as we could have been on
(05:40):
some of the evidences and witnesses, but in kind of an outline form, we've, we've covered
that.
So maybe we let's move into maybe some personal experience.
One of the reasons I choose to believe and stay is because of personal experience, personal
experiences that I've had that are spiritual miracles that I've witnessed and the joy and
(06:05):
peace and love and all the fruits of the spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost that I have
enjoyed throughout my life growing up in a home that believed and practiced the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
I mean, Scott, I've been so blessed to live up, to be raised up into a home where I saw
(06:31):
the gospel of Jesus Christ in action, you know, and I, I know there's other great people
and there's other righteous individuals of all churches and all religion, but, but I
tasted the fruit of the gospel in my home.
I saw the evidence of the witnesses of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit
(06:54):
in my home.
I grew up immersed in it and it's sometimes harder to, I think, fully appreciate it until
you lose it.
And it's kind of like a, taking a fish out of water when you lose it.
All of a sudden you really can see it.
And I, I never really had to, had to lose it or have it taken from me.
(07:19):
I never, I had a pretty ideal like a childhood and I'm really thankful for that.
And my heart really goes out to others whose members, whose families, parents, or maybe
members of the church who maybe didn't see all that, who didn't see all the fruits of
the gospel or who, who had real abuse or challenges in their families who supposedly, you know,
(07:49):
were members of the church and believed in the gospel.
And my heart really goes out to those folks.
But I was from pretty early on, Scott, I, I was having spiritual experiences.
And I maybe didn't recognize them always that way, but in our family home evenings, both
in our, our immediate family, but I was the youngest in the family.
(08:13):
So by the time it was really important to me, you came along when I was like eight years
old and all my nieces and nephews and we'd have those kind of extended family home evenings.
And oftentimes those would go into testimony meetings and we would hear my dad, your grand
(08:34):
dad, my mom, your grandma, and my brothers and sisters bear testimony to see my own,
my brothers and sisters before me get married in the temple.
And, and, you know, I, I was really blessed to be brought up in that kind of an environment.
(08:55):
But it's not, it's really get me, get me on that, leave home, go out on your own.
Scott, that, that won't necessarily be enough for anybody to be able to endure in the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
And I had to get my own testimony.
I had to get my own witness of the truth and, and I did.
(09:18):
And I think the first experience really personally was when I went to the mountain where we would
hunt, you know, and had that experience, which I think I've maybe have shared on previous
podcast about praying, crying out, but it's worth sharing, crying out to God down near
(09:39):
the Parker mountains and central Utah, southern central Utah and crying out and hearing a
voice and having my prayers answered.
And I knew God knew me.
I knew he was aware of me.
And I knew that he'd heard and answered my prayer after some fasting two or three days
(10:03):
and being on the mountain.
And when I'm my mission, knowing that God was aware of me and that he was in control
and that, and that I was where I was supposed to be.
And then on my mission, having, uh, many personal experiences, Scott, uh, seeing miracles, uh,
(10:28):
priesthood miracles on my mission.
First time, uh, in my lifetime where I ever using the priesthood.
In fact, this is interesting.
I have a golfing buddy, uh, from Fresno, California, and he went home to his sisters.
This past, uh, few months to visit her for the holidays.
(10:52):
He went back to Fresno, his hometown, and he walks in and there's con and Karen bidders.
And, uh, he said, Oh, you know, you know, Dave Durfing, they said, yeah, oh yeah, elder
Durf, yeah, yeah, we know him.
And this is a couple that, um, I had seen baptized and had helped to, to teach and he
(11:21):
got another, they were, they were school teachers, both of them.
And he got another school teacher interested and we were teaching her 22, 23 year old young
woman and, uh, Susan and we got, she committed to be baptized and con couldn't move his arm
(11:41):
the night before he was the baptizer, his right arm.
He couldn't, he couldn't raise it.
It was, he was in terrible pain and Karen calls me up this back in 1974, Scott.
And so 51 years ago and he calls me up and, and says, you know, I can't move my arm.
(12:05):
Would you give me a blessing?
Actually Karen, Karen called me his wife.
Would you give con a blessing?
So they come over and I give them a nice blessing and they leave and it's about nine, 10 o'clock
when they leave two AM, she calls me back and I hear, I can hear him actually groaning
in the background.
Oh no.
And she says it's worse.
(12:25):
His arm is, it's not better.
It's worse.
That cannot, can, would you be willing to give him another blessing?
And I said, yeah, sure, of course.
And I didn't know what to, what else to say, but I knew I had about 20 minutes and I hurried
and got dressed.
I went into our little room where there was a sofa and I nailed down and I cried out to
(12:49):
God like I'd never prayed before and said, please, heavenly father, these are new, these
are new converts in the church.
Please, they have such great faith.
Please help me to say what thou would say if thou weren't here.
That was my prayer.
(13:10):
Anyway, they, they came and we laid our hands upon their head and first time in my life,
not the only time in my life, Scott, but the first time in my life where I said, I command
in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power and authority of the holy priesthood, I command
(13:32):
that your arm be healed.
A 20 year old missionary.
And when the blessing ended, he said, so when you said, I command your arm to be healed.
I felt something pop in my arm.
He was still somewhat in pain and they left and next morning, nine o'clock, we met him
(13:53):
at church.
He had no more pain in his arm.
His arm was completely numb.
He said, raised it to the square, his right arm to the square and baptized Susan Passey
and then Susan, that's her married name now.
Anyway, Susan Eiffler.
(14:16):
Then he went to the doctor.
And because he was worried about it, because it was numb and they took an X-ray and they
said, Oh, you've had bursitis.
You had an acute case of bursitis and usually we're just going to pop that sack of fluid,
but yours has popped and the fluid running in into your arm has pinched the nerve.
(14:36):
And that's why your, your arms know that they'll go away in the next 24 hours, which it did.
Scott, you know, that was not a psychological thing.
That wasn't a psychological miracle.
That wasn't a, I knew by again, the Holy Ghost that I could say that and God would honor
(14:59):
that and that was an immediate answer and miracle.
And I knew the priesthood power was real.
The betters knew the priesthood power was real.
And now here 51 years later today, I think they were in their late twenties when we taught
them and baptized them.
(15:20):
And now here they are in their late seventies and they're still so faithful, so active and
been such great members of the church after all these years.
But we, but we, we experienced that miracle together and there's been other priesthood
miracles and, and miracles in my life that I, and I know, I know we don't have a monopoly
(15:45):
on miracles.
You know, other religions, other churches, certain, certainly through faith and Jesus
Christ, certainly through the power of the spirit, God can heal and bless whoever he
wants Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whoever he wants.
(16:06):
I know that he answers their prayers and I know that he can heal and bless others, not
of our faith.
Yeah.
But I've experienced it in my personal life and I know the priesthood has been restored
in these last days.
I know the priesthood is real, the authority and power of it.
(16:26):
And it's, it's one of again, one of the real cornerstones, foundation stones of my, of
my testimony, Scott.
I know you've had some experience, personal experiences.
I'm listening to you and I'm reminiscing, you know, I'm going back and I'm, I'm remembering
(16:48):
those football games in the backyard that were followed by family night.
Yeah.
Right.
You and Mark beating up on each other.
Yeah.
Carl and Craig and Stephen and John and Paul and so fun and everybody else.
Yeah.
You used to instigate a lot of that.
It got me in a lot of trouble.
I was trying to toughen you up.
(17:10):
Well, you, you didn't do a very good job.
Yeah, I did.
But, you know, so I'm, I'm listening to you share all that and, and my experience was
the same.
Yeah, my response to the experience was a lot different though than yours was and that's
interesting.
You know, I'm, I'm, I haven't tried to and I, and I don't see a lot of fruit and really
(17:34):
analyzing why I chose not to see things the way others saw them.
I did see them and I did feel them and those, those, those testimony building experiences
still a foundation to the most important things in my life for sure.
There's no question.
I remember those.
I also remember experiences on Parker mountain that would not alone.
(17:56):
Well, that's not true.
I had a couple of alone where I would wander away from the deer camp, et cetera.
But, but I remember learning from what I idolized for whatever reason growing up.
I, I, I look at men, mostly men and think I want to be like that.
I want to be like that.
I want to be like that.
There's some characteristics and attributes that most of these men had.
(18:19):
Most of these men were tough.
Yeah.
They were men's men.
They were tough guys, you know, they, they were, they were, uh, and, you know, and when
I'm, and when I'm referring to this, I'm also referring to men in my mom's side of the family,
my grandpa Fagan specifically, just an absolute hard cowboy kind of guy.
Yeah.
And, and, and I, and I looked to that and I saw that as I want to be like that one day.
(18:43):
I wasn't like that inside.
You know, I was a wimpy little kid inside most of the time during those times, but as
I was growing, I didn't respond to those same experience, the experiences that we had, David
shared together and individual.
I didn't respond to them the same way you did.
Um, and, and, and I've wondered why again, it doesn't matter at this point, but I wandered,
(19:06):
you know, I, I, and in my wandering, I didn't wonder.
It was wandering, not wondering, you know, it was an outright rebellion.
Uh, and, and for whatever reason, I, I can relate to maybe layman and Lemuel a little
bit on that, uh, level and I, and I'm, I'm not trying to be funny.
There's just a rebellious streak that I, I, for whatever reason experienced, but that
(19:28):
rebellious streak, Dave, for me ended up being the impetus to my sure knowledge or as
sure knowledge as I can come to at this point in my life, because what that did for me was
that ripped out all of the comforts that were, would be afforded a young man by the spirit.
They ripped away a lot of the direction that would have come, um, and so forth.
(19:54):
I still made decisions and I still made choices to act appropriately and do certain things
right, like go on a mission.
And I, I didn't go on my mission to make everybody else happy.
I went on my mission because I had a testimony and at that point in my life, I was ready
to be done with everything in my life that had been rebellion up until that point in
my life.
And I really was, I really, really was.
(20:16):
I went on my mission, had a great mission, had some of the same experiences that you
just shared in healings and teachings and, uh, and all of that and, and, and had witness
to myself, came home off my mission.
And what I had not realized that there was a part of the fall of Adam and Eve that was
affecting me and that my body had become addicted to chemical and, and, and other things that,
(20:41):
um, would pull me away from the spirit, which it did.
And so I went home very long and I started drinking again and, and I didn't realize until
much later I was drinking again to numb some of the inadequacies and bad feelings and so
forth that I was listening to the voice of the accuser, Satan in my life, who wanted me
to believe that I wasn't worth much.
(21:01):
And so what did it matter anyway?
Well, then there comes a point in your life, you know, I have four children.
I've gone through a divorce or two and, and a lot of other things, you know, that it was
just like, okay, I can't, I no longer can.
And there, and you know, we read about, um, for example, we read about in the Book of
(21:22):
Mormon specifically, Alma the younger and others who, who have these experiences where
there's an absolute crying out where, where there's a, um, I've done everything I can
and I just can't get my life right again.
Um, maybe it never was at that point, but I just can't get my life right again.
(21:43):
So it was in acknowledging and recognizing that I had zero power.
My life had become absolutely unmanageable because I had given up my ability to make
decisions and choices around free agency types of things.
Um, I was subject to the devil.
I was subject to my addiction.
(22:03):
I was subject to my alcoholism until, and this is this, I, my testimony and my relationship
of the Godhead was foundation.
The foundation of that was built in those experiences that you shared, but, but it was
fortified and made whole by my experiences that I later got.
(22:26):
And you're right.
You know, the church of Jesus Christ, water, they say it does not have a corner.
They're not the only way to get the spirit in our lives and to have those kinds of healings.
We're the only way for it to be completed, but we aren't the only way for them to begin.
And, and they began to happen as I began to turn my will in my life over to a God that
(22:47):
maybe I just changed the way I viewed him a little bit.
Say prior to that, I had for whatever reason decided that God was mad at me.
Why wouldn't he be when I made a mistake?
When I love my dad and I get mad at my kids too and they make mistakes, but when I got
in trouble, my dad got mad at me and punishment often ensued as it should.
(23:10):
It's not a criticism on my dad punishment often ensued.
And so I saw God as being like my dad and being that way.
You know, he was mad at me and there was sure going to be punishment.
Well, if there's going to be punishment, then maybe it's more convenient if I can deny it.
Maybe it's more convenient if I can run from it and all that other stuff.
And the running and denying runs out, all you're left with is you and your raw reality.
(23:33):
And in that raw reality, there was a lot of scar tissue, an awful lot of scar tissue,
but that scar tissue could only be healed by God, by Heavenly Father.
And I came to realize that it was through his Son, Jesus Christ, administered to me by
the administration of his Atonement and the blessings from it by the Holy Ghost.
(23:54):
But that's my experience, you know.
And my experience is today still point back to that experience.
My experience, the reason I, and I have a intimate deep relationship with my Heavenly
Father and it's becoming deeper every day.
And while I'm constantly working on it, I'm not there.
But the reason I believe that it's that way is because I needed it so badly.
(24:21):
And I recognize we all do.
But I would, for whatever reason, I was afforded the gift to know that, I call it the gift
of desperation, the gift of desperation to know that without God, I have myself and literally
less than nothing, less than zero.
And so, you know, my experience was, was spawned out of necessity, I believe, you know.
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I think it is for all of us, but that's the way I see it.
It doesn't make me special, doesn't make me better.
In fact, there's a lot of challenges that I'm still working through that I still face
because of wreckage of my past, right?
But by the grace of a loving God, my experience has been that by the merits of Christ, all
(25:10):
of that is made okay.
And so, you know, when we talk about spiritual experiences, that's a ton of different little
spiritual experiences all wrapped into that experience.
Well, whether you're a fish in the water, whether you're a fish out of the water, both
fish have to come to a, not just a testimony, but I think we talked about this a few times
(25:35):
ago, a few podcasts ago, difference between testimony and conversion.
Both fish have to be converted.
Both have to know that they're fallen, that they're lost, that they're, they can merit
nothing of themselves as the Book of Mormon teaches, and they have to receive a forgiveness
of sin and be born again.
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That's more than just knowing that it's true.
They have to be transformed.
They have to be changed.
They have to know.
I had to know as much as you had to know and learn for yourself that it's not about conforming.
It's not about performing.
It's about Christ transforming us.
(26:17):
I love the way you put that.
And that's what we both had to come to know.
So whether you're a fish in the water and you never rebelled and you grow up in the
Gospel of Jesus Christ and you're basically, you never really leave the path or you're
a fish out of the water and you feel like you may or may never really got your feet
planted on the path and you were off and you were running across back and forth the path
(26:41):
throughout your life.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is that you got to the tree.
You got to the tree of life and you partook.
And you partook of the love of God and the Atonement of Jesus Christ and you were transformed.
And you fell down.
You weren't those who were the clingers who partook of the fruit.
(27:04):
Then you saw the Great and Spacious Building.
But rather you partook of the fruit of love and forgiveness and grace of God and you
fell down on your knees in gratitude.
Scott, that's being converted to the Lord and that's much deeper and more important
(27:25):
really than having a testimony of the church.
And there's lots of people, I think, that only get to the testimony of the church and
they're the ones who see the Great and Spacious Building and they leave.
They may be taste of the fruit just a little bit, but they see the Great and Spacious Building
and then they're jumping over the water to get there.
(27:48):
But if you have been converted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to the Lord, you will
fall down and you will stay.
You will choose to not just believe, but you will choose to stay.
And we led very different lives, but we got to the same point.
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That's what's important.
That's right.
That's right.
It's about the conversion and the transformation of your life that matters.
And so I'm just going to say this because there's probably those who listen.
In fact, I know there is those who listen that have been down a similar path that maybe
I've been down.
Today, Dave, the challenge that there's still challenges and one of the main challenges
(28:36):
today is I've even felt this.
I've even had this experience just sitting here in the last couple of minutes as I was
listening to you.
You know, there's a little tinge of guilt inside of me saying, man, Scott, you should
have screwed up.
You know, you should have.
You should have cut a wood.
And again, whispering of the adversary, right?
(28:56):
The accuser accusing me.
Yeah, and our own insecurities and fears and all that Scott, but the bottom line is,
but the bottom line is this, you're ever bit as dependent on the mercies, graces and love
of Jesus Christ as I am and no less and no less.
And that's that's the important thing that we all when we start drawing comparisons and
(29:19):
we do that.
I mean, I think it's just a natural thing that humans and maybe some of us are more
susceptible to this and others, but we do start comparing ourselves and by comparison,
I see, oh man, I should have done better.
But then I realize, don't compare me.
I need to compare him, compare him to what compare him to my problems.
(29:40):
My problems are swallowed up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, yeah, that's my experience and that's and date.
That is exactly that is exactly why I stay because there's no, there's no human or other
power that could have relieved my alcoholism.
There was only one.
(30:00):
Yeah.
Now one is God.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the Glacians 522, I think it's such a sweet description of the fruits of the spirit
Scott, which I think so many people in this world do not understand or or they're not
(30:20):
able to quite capture in their life, you know, the gifts of joy and peace and love that we
feel because of the conversion and our redemption in Jesus Christ and our relationship with
him.
(30:41):
Again, I know we don't have a corner on the market or an monopoly in that either, but
wow, Scott, we are so blessed to be able to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ,
which gives us a little deeper joy, I believe, a little firmer peace and a little more love
(31:02):
and charity in our lives because of the confidence and the assurance and the level of hope that
is in our life because of ordinances and covenants and our relationship and our understanding
of who God is and who we are in relationship to him and who God is and who Jesus Christ
(31:29):
is and their relationship to each other.
I mean, just just our beliefs in the Holy Trinity, Scott makes makes things just so much
more clear in my mind about their relationship with each other and how I'm a joint air through
ordinances and covenants with Jesus Christ to the Father and how with the help of the
(31:53):
Holy Ghost and through Jesus Christ and his Atonement, I can enter into the presence of
the Father.
That's just all so clear in the Holy Temple and the ordinances that we participate in,
right, and all of that strengthens our relationship with him, which really leads us into the—and
(32:14):
you know, Scott, I just want to say something about the commandments, too.
I think the commandments themselves are evidence and witnesses as well as personal reasons why
I stay active in the church.
The protection and blessings of keeping the commandments, right?
Lord of wisdom, the law of chastity, commandments, tithing, the blessings, blessings and promises
(32:41):
and miracles of paying tithing, man, keeping the Sabbath day holy.
These commandments that God has given us, which we are encouraged to obey for those who
stay active in the gospel of Jesus Christ, are God's way of not only protecting us,
(33:04):
but of elevating us and blessing us and helping us to qualify for his presence in the presence
of the Holy Ghost in our life.
I'm really grateful for them, and I see the commandments, some of them the restored commandments
of the restored church, of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as some of the evidences of
(33:32):
the truthfulness of the restoration.
Well, and definitely, I see the commandments and all of the law of God as an expression
of God's love for us.
He said it, it's safe, you know, and all of that.
Evidence of his love.
But it's definitely an evidence, outright evidence of his love for us.
Yeah.
Well, that's all of that personal experience, personal life is all part of the reason why
(33:57):
I choose to believe, why I choose to stay.
And I hope people are trying to have personal experiences daily, weekly, monthly.
There's ways to do that, you know, and remember them, journal them, right?
Be grateful for them.
See God's hand in their life.
Sure, and when it's appropriate with those that you love, that love you, that may be
struggling to understand these principles themselves, given the right circumstances,
(34:23):
etc.
One of those to David, and we touched on this as prayer, but that, but that's one that
if daily, you know, and even more, I mean, you know, we're commanded to pray always in
our fields and our closets in our, in public by ourselves and private and all of that,
you know, that, that relationship that that that it's a really a miraculous relationship
(34:49):
that we're given as we engage in that prayer.
I mentioned earlier, I had a contorted view of my relationship with God or rather God's
relationship with me.
That didn't change until I started talking to God again.
Right.
Right.
And I needed to know not what I was left with my thoughts and the silent whisperings
(35:15):
of the adversary that that didn't help me.
What helped me was having those conversations and those pouring out my hearts and even those
expressions of frustration and I don't understand it.
And maybe you can help me or, you know, those kinds of things and that, but we can do that
daily.
Well, it's, it is not just talking to him.
(35:37):
It was the fact that you knew he was listening and it's the connecting to him.
Yeah.
It's the connecting with him that, that has such power in our lives.
So yeah, that's, that's good Scott, the power of prayer, such an important part of the reason
(35:57):
why I choose to believe and stay.
Roman numeral number three, Scott is about our relationship with God and we've already
touched on some of these things, but it seemed to me to be kind of a separate third point.
(36:17):
And it's, you know, it's based on really the scripture in John 17 three, then this is
life eternal that they might know the, the only true God in Jesus Christ and that was
sin.
You know, at the very heart of this God, it's the Prophet Joseph Smith said, man cannot
begin to comprehend themselves until they comprehend God.
(36:41):
I have found that to really be true throughout my life that, that my personal identity and
who I am is very much tied to bound to my understanding of who God is.
And because I know who God is as my loving heavenly father, the father of my spirit and
(37:08):
that I'm his son, man, Scott, that, that has makes such a difference in my worship and
in my, uh, where I'm at in relationship to him and to everyone else because I know of
where I stand with him.
(37:28):
I don't know if other people have this experience when they pray, but of course when I pray,
all of the things I try with all my heart to express my gratitude for, thank him for
is, is his only begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ, his only begotten son in the flesh,
(37:50):
his firstborn son in the spirit in the pre moral existence.
And I try to thank him for that.
And then I thank him that I'm his son too.
I, I, you know, without taking anything away from Jesus Christ and who the same, my savior
redeemer is often to my prayer, I say in father, I'm grateful that I'm your son too.
(38:20):
And help me to be a better son.
Help me to be a more faithful, loyal, serviceable son.
You know, I say that often in my prayers because I think about that relationship.
So because I through the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, I can begin to comprehend God.
(38:46):
I begin to comprehend myself and it makes all the difference in, in my identity and
identity.
Right.
We started this whole podcast three years ago based on identity is everything identity
determines your eternity identity.
Honestly, Scott, we wouldn't even know who we are or not believe who we are if it wasn't
(39:11):
for the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
And I think there's a lot of people who leave, who, who believe that and they leave.
And I think, wow, their whole identity is at stake.
And not, not just, not just their membership in the church, forget that, but their whole
identity is at stake and in danger.
(39:35):
If they don't, if they don't believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, think of
the truths and understanding and wisdom that they're leaving behind in terms of, of who
they are and who God is.
So that, that's a big one.
And not only who I am, but who's I am and the fact of our relationship with Jesus Christ
(40:02):
and that we, his blood purchased us and that he, he, uh, oh, he, the died for us, uh, that
he, I owe him.
I, my reconciliation, my, my debt is, is to him because of his, uh, atoning sacrifice
(40:26):
and suffering and, uh, that I can be a joyed heir with him.
Scott Paul teaches that in the Bible, but no, nobody else seems to really understand
what that means that we are sons of God.
I mean, this is in Romans eight, the Holy spirit bears witness to, to our spirit that
(40:46):
we are children of God and or sons of God, children of God, heirs.
And if heirs, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, I know, I know what that means because of
the restored gospel of Jesus Christ when so many others don't have a complete understanding
of that.
(41:06):
So that's just one of the points under knowledge in our relationship with the Godhead.
Another one is understanding, really understanding the plan of redemption and the atonement and
the, what went into the atonement?
Why did I need an atonement?
Uh, why did I need a redeemer, the doctrine of the fall, Scott?
(41:28):
I mean, most religions, most churches believe the fall was evil.
It was bad.
It was a big mistake.
Adam and Eve really blew it for us.
Well, we have a complete different understanding of the fall and the need for a redeemer and
the plan of redemption because we understand the fall because of the book of Mormon and
(41:49):
the truths restored in the book of Mormon.
So that has such a profound effect in my relationship with, uh, my heavenly father and understanding
who I am as a, as a human as a fallen being.
And that that's, that was all part of God's plan.
And when I sin, he knew I would sin.
(42:10):
That's why we have a redeemer justice, mercy, and how those two laws interact with each
other.
Everything about the plan of redemption.
Yeah.
It just really affects our relationship.
That was the, that was the part of my experience that I think that I was trying to, to say,
I think you just pointed that out.
(42:33):
It really is.
It's about that relationship with deity.
Yeah.
Uh, it's God wasn't mad at Adam and Eve.
It was part of the plan.
Right.
If that's part of the plan, then my fallenness must also be, now I'm not excusing it and
then there were definite mistakes.
It shouldn't happen, but, but my fallenness may also, maybe then also be part of the plan
if at least the redemption from my fallenness is part of the plan.
(42:59):
Seeing because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be permanently lost.
Right.
As bad as mortality can be and as bad as man can be and as bad as our choices and decisions
and sins may be Scott doesn't go beyond the love of God and the power and mercy and grace
(43:24):
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And what, what does that teach us about the character attributes and perfections of God
and his plan anyway?
Uh, so knowing who we are, the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, we talk a lot about our
relationship with the father and the son, but there's only one place in all the scriptures
(43:47):
where it says you can have a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, Scott, and that's in the
Doctrine and Covenants, section 121.
Verse 46, I'm going to read it.
The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion and thy sceptre and unchanging sceptre of
righteousness and truth and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion and without
(44:07):
compulsory means that shall flow into thee forever and ever.
Okay, that is so full of doctor.
That verse is so loaded in credible and and that's in the Doctrine and Covenants that
there was a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail.
One verse, one verse, the only place where you can be worried where the doctrine is taught
(44:33):
that the Holy Ghost is our constant companion.
I take that pretty literally, Scott.
I believe that the everyone is entitled to the power of the Holy Ghost and from time
to time, the Holy Ghost can teach individuals truth.
He can warn them.
He can give anyone in this world revelation that the Father wants to wants to communicate
(44:55):
with or use the Holy Ghost as a agent of change and love, whatever.
But we believe that we are able to have the Holy Ghost as a constant, constant companion.
Scott, there is no besides our agency there and besides the gift of Jesus Christ and his
(45:24):
Atonement, there is no other gift that God has given us in this life greater than the
gift of the Holy Ghost as our constant companion.
Now I know that I'm a sinner.
I know I'm never perfect or sinless or ever completely, fully worthy of that gift.
(45:53):
But Scott, I really believe he's with me almost all the time, unless I just don't even want
him with me.
And I know there's people like that and I've been like that in my life.
He hasn't been with me for all the time.
I know that I rebelled to and that I sin and what I do, I, I, I know that the Holy Spirit
(46:15):
cannot man cannot keep God and the spirit in his life when they sin.
But when I repent, I know that he can be my constant companion.
And then because of him in that verse, it says that because of the gift of the Holy
Ghost working upon us, I think the Holy Ghost can change us.
(46:39):
He is the power and agent of change and that it is through him that we can eternally progress.
What do you see in that verse in terms of the doctrine of eternal progression?
It says, and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion.
Dominions, we have dominions kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers.
(47:00):
And without compulsory means, it shall flow into the forever.
I think that's as big a miracle as any of it.
Yeah, just flows.
Just without compulsion as long as right.
We have that unchanging righteous, a sceptre of righteousness and truth.
Thy dominion shall be an everlasting, never ending dominion.
(47:23):
And without compulsory means without compulsion, it will flow into the forever and ever.
It's amazing.
The eternity, the eternity of man and the eternal relationship with a member of the
Godhead.
I mean, he's a, he's a member of the Godhead and we can have him as a constant companion.
(47:48):
That's why I believe in stay.
Yeah.
Why would I go and leave that?
Yeah.
Oh man.
Anyway.
So the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, so many, so many blessings, so many gifts.
(48:08):
It deepens, it strengthens, it expands my reverence for God and how I worship him in
the name of Jesus Christ.
Kind of understanding that relationship.
I worship the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jacob actually says that in Jacob chapter two.
Of course, I worship Jesus Christ.
(48:30):
Of course, I worship in the name of Jesus Christ and I worship the Godhead, the Father,
the Son, the Holy Ghost, but I also understand that there's a hierarchy there.
I understand that and I know Jesus taught that that we pray to the Father in the name
of the Son and I understand that relationship.
(48:51):
I don't pray to Jesus.
I don't pray to the Holy Ghost.
I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ as prompted and directed by the Holy
Spirit.
Words are given to me by the Spirit what I should pray for.
I understand that relationship, Scott, and it makes my prayers more effective.
(49:13):
It makes my relationship more, more clear in my, more, more clear in my mind.
All of that's part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
And then to enjoy the confidence because of that relationship we have with our Heavenly
(49:34):
Father and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost because of knowing that we've entered
into covenants with Him, with them, to know my standing before God as a joint heir with
Christ.
Honestly, that brings just so much peace and purpose and joy in my life, Scott, that that's
(50:01):
why I choose to believe and stay.
And finally, the last point I have under my relationship is that we understand a lot about
the second coming of Jesus Christ.
We understand not just the plan of redemption, the plan of mercy, but we understand something
about the plan and the timing, the overall picture of God and the salvation of this earth
(50:27):
and all the people that live on this earth, which leads me to look forward to with eager
anticipation to watch for the second coming of Jesus Christ and the winding up of these
events.
I just, I really look forward to the second coming of Jesus Christ.
(50:49):
I don't dread it.
I'm not afraid of it.
I pray for it.
Like John says, it's so, I think it's so awesome, kind of cute how John ends his gospel, you
know, praying for the second coming praying for Jesus to come again.
And he says, and come quickly.
(51:11):
I love that.
That's how I feel.
Oh, please, Jesus, come quickly.
And we've been commanded and to watch for the second coming.
And we've been given the signs to watch for now.
I know they're in the Bible.
They're also in the Book of Mormon.
And there's even additional signs that the Bible and the Book of Mormon don't contain
(51:32):
in the doctorate and confidence and the Pearl of Great Price in the in the Book of Moses.
Anyways, it's got and we have a whole chapter in the Pearl of Great Price on Matthew 24,
which is all about the events preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ.
And we have section 45, which talks about the second coming of Jesus Christ.
(51:55):
And we know that because of the revelations and the restoration that we are the children
of light and that he should not come to us as a thief in the night.
But we will know when he's coming.
We'll participate in those events at Adam on the almond.
I I just really that's a big part of why I choose to believe and stay is because of the
(52:22):
events preceding and the events of and the events following the second coming of Jesus
Christ.
That's that's a big deal, Scott.
Yeah, it's gonna make Christmas look pretty insignificant when we start celebrating the
second coming of Jesus Christ and when he comes, whatever day that might be.
(52:45):
But I know it's through the restoration and that we can be prepared for that.
So those are all reasons why I believe and stay.
The I love that you have these in kind of an order, you know, evidences and witnesses,
(53:06):
personal experiences.
And then I love that how you've kind of held this one back for the knowledge of and relationship
with the Godhead.
I don't I don't know if you could probably the most precious one.
Well, I think the other two make it so that that one can happen.
(53:26):
Yeah, you know, and I see this also, we talk about faith being a helix.
I see this also as being a helix, Dave.
Yeah, I see I see that as my knowledge and my relationship, my relationship with my relationship
with Godhead is the most important, the absolute most important activity endeavor.
(53:47):
I shouldn't even call it an activity, but endeavor that I can be involved in period.
Personal experiences, evidences and witnesses lent to that.
Yeah, but but those personal experiences and evidences and witnesses become even more
pronounced even more even more obvious to me, depending on the depth of my relationship
(54:08):
and knowledge with Godhead.
So without a relationship, all those personal experience evidences and witnesses would be
really worth a really matter.
That's right.
So you know, one needful thing.
Exactly.
That's it.
There's one needful thing.
And that third point encapsulates that one needful thing from chapter two knowing their
(54:32):
characters, their attributes, their perfections, being able to have faith in them and a relationship
with them.
Oh, Scott, that's really that's that's everything.
That's that's the I guess that's the bottom line.
You know, and when everybody starts to leave Jesus, you know, in John chapter six, because
(54:55):
he's taught some hard doctrine and they can't quite understand it and wrap their mind around
it or believe in him.
And he asked his disciples, are you also going to leave?
Yeah.
And they said, Peter says.
Hey, where else would we go, Lord?
Right.
Nobody else has the words of eternal life or life with God.
(55:17):
So nobody else can teach us about life with God.
Peter makes that observation.
And that's an important observation.
This is the same Peter that when Jesus said to him, whom say, whom say, man that I am?
Yeah.
And Peter said, will they say you're this guy or that guy or this and then Jesus says,
yeah, but Peter, who do you say that I am?
(55:38):
Right.
And he says, thou art the living Christ, the Christ, the son of the living God.
Right.
And Jesus said, blessed art thou, Simon, bar Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed
it to thee, but my father, which is in heaven, my father, which is in heaven revealed that
to Peter and he will to us again through the third member of the Godhead, the power and
(56:01):
gifted in our constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Yep.
Amen.
And that's what it's all about.
That's why I choose to believe.
And that's why I choose to stay.
And I really feel like I can't afford not to choose to believe at this point in my life.
The cost has been too great.
Yeah.
(56:21):
The cost.
The eternal relationship, Scott, that we can have the eternal progression that we believe
in.
Yeah.
The idea we haven't even talked about this, which I think so sacred, but I know evangelicals
and anti's love to criticize us for the idea, which I believe was taught by early Christian
(56:41):
fathers that we can become like God.
Yeah.
That we, we, I know only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ is that possible.
I know only through his gifts and only through his power that's possible, but that any father,
really loving father, again, that comes back to knowing God.
And it comes back to a relationship with that loving God.
(57:04):
Knowing, knowing him and having a relationship with him that he wants us to become like him
errors.
Nobody else believes that Scott joined errors with Christ.
Nobody else believes that.
And I find that to be so humbling, so motivating, so hopeful, so graceful, merciful words can
(57:32):
describe it.
I choose to believe and I choose to stay and I know I have a lot of work to do.
Yeah, me too.
I have a lot of work to do.
And one last, one last thing.
I know we got to wind this up, but there are the fourth Roman emerald pointers, true points
of doctrine.
Scott and we've touched on almost all of these, eternal progression, salvation of children.
(57:57):
I think that's one of the most precious points of doctrine of the restoration is that we
know where babies go when they die.
When I'm stealing children to families in the two couples to parents in the temple and
I see on a ordinance card that this child does not need to be baptized, didn't need an
(58:17):
ischeterie endowment or any temple work.
All they need to do is be sealed to their parents.
I always think about this point of doctrine that we know where babies go.
And because of my again, personal experience in baring some babies that my wife had in
(58:38):
stillborn that we're stillborn.
And I know there's no official doctrine on stillborns, but I know that I'm going to raise
three sons in the millennium.
And I know that babies who die before the age of eight are unaccountable and I know they
go to heaven and I know they are go to the celestial kingdom unconditionally.
(58:59):
No one else teaches that Scott.
No one else understands what happens to babies.
That point of doctrine alone helps me to believe in the God I believe in, the loving merciful
God I believe in.
Nobody believes that in a God of more mercy and grace than we do Scott, who has saved about
(59:25):
50% of their children in the celestial kingdom because 200 years ago 50% of children never
made it to the age of eight.
200 years ago and prior.
I'm right.
All the way back to Adam.
Exactly.
They never made it to eight years old.
How many of God's children are in the celestial kingdom?
(59:47):
This point of doctrine and alone helps me in my relationship with God to know who he is
and to know how fair life will be because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ that makes
all of these blessings possible that we can actually be with our children and our families
(01:00:14):
together forever.
Well, Scott, all of these points of doctrine, which are only the result of the restoration
of the fullness of the gospel in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith and
the revelations given through him and living prophets is why I choose to believe and why
(01:00:43):
I choose to stay.
You know, who else where else might I go and receive the words of eternal life or life
with God?
Well, and I pray that each of us will seek as Peter did to receive that spiritual witness
that he is the son of the living God that because of his sacrifice because of God's
(01:01:07):
great love for us and the gift of his son and the gift of the Holy Ghost that God has
given us that that demonstration of love binds me to him, not just through the sealing
covenant, but through my love and commitment because he loved me first.
I'm grateful to know that today.
Amen.
(01:01:27):
Thank you.
Thanks for being with us, everybody.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, be well.
Hey there everybody, welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. This
(00:20):
is Scott Durfey, as always joined by David Durfey.
So great to be with you, Scott.
So good to be with you. How are you?
I'm good.
Thank you for the subject we're talking about.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you want to talk about your mission call at all yet?
I wish.
I wish.
So you're saying we're doing a couple more episodes at least.
(00:43):
Oh man.
I know I get that.
I get that question from friends all the time.
So when's Dave going?
We don't want the podcast end.
So maybe it's their fault.
Maybe they're praying that you're not.
Maybe that maybe it's holding this holding me back, but whatever.
We want to go sooner the better.
(01:03):
At least we think but the Lord's timing, you know, all the Lord's timing.
Of course.
Yeah.
Grateful that we were able to take care of some things before we go and it seems like
we have more things to take care of.
Well, that's where we go.
That's life.
Speaking of life, this last week we finished up episode or yeah, version number three.
(01:26):
Of this, what has going to definitely be a for at least episode series of why do I choose
to believe great concepts and so forth that we've been discussing over the last several
weeks around that Dave's had some experiences to believe and stay.
Yeah.
(01:47):
I end stay and stay.
A lot of people have believed in they don't stay.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
So you know, really I've got three major points why I believe and stay Scott.
I mean, it's it's evidences and witnesses that I have several sub points under that.
(02:08):
And we've talked about some of those.
That's been the last podcast that we've done.
Then I have personal experience.
The reason I believe and stay several sub points under that.
And then I've got the knowledge of and relationship with the Godhead as the third point, third
major reason, no Roman numeral number three, why I believe and stay.
(02:34):
And then I just have kind of a fourth point, which is true points of doctrine.
So those are kind of the each one has lots of sub points, but that's kind of the basic
outline.
The four reasons why I stay is because of evidences and witnesses, personal experience, my relationship
(02:59):
with the Godhead and true points of doctrine.
Yeah.
Well, and those are all overlapped.
Sorry.
Yeah.
They overlap and we've spent a substantial amount of time on that first new Roman numeral
one.
And then we've talked about evidences and witnesses last episode, we talked a lot about
scripture and the words of prophets.
(03:22):
Specifically, I think we got into a lot of the Book of Mormon scripture and doctrine
and covenants and Pearl of great price.
And even we even talked about some of the proclamations and how how those, either though
maybe not canonized to scripture, how they choose to see those, they're still witnesses,
right?
Yeah.
Evidence and witnesses.
We, you know, we didn't even really talk about the doctrine, covenants being evidence
(03:47):
and witness of eternal marriage, which is a unique, unique, special belief of the, of
the church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints and the restored gospel is nobody else.
No other church that I believe that I know about believes in eternal marriage.
No other church that I know about.
(04:08):
No other religion believes that families can be together forever.
Now I, I just think that's one of the, the great points of doctrine that's been restored
through the doctrine and covenants.
So you know, temples and eternal marriages, we didn't even talk about those last time.
(04:30):
We didn't even talk about the Book of Moses and the writings of Enoch.
I mean, here we have 18, I think it's 180, sorry.
It's like 180 verses on the words of Enoch, the prophet, something like that.
We have like one verse in the Old Testament on Enoch and the city of Enoch.
(04:55):
And in the, in the Book of Moses of the Pearl and Gray price, which is part of the Joseph
Smith translation, we have, we have chapter, a couple of chapters on Enoch in the city
of Enoch.
And oh man, Scott, that, that is so precious.
(05:15):
And that's evidence and witnesses to me that again, only because the Holy Ghost bears witness
of them, that they're true.
They become additional witnesses and evidence of the truthfulness of the restoration.
So anyway, we, we didn't give a real comprehensive as comprehensive as we could have been on
(05:40):
some of the evidences and witnesses, but in kind of an outline form, we've, we've covered
that.
So maybe we let's move into maybe some personal experience.
One of the reasons I choose to believe and stay is because of personal experience, personal
experiences that I've had that are spiritual miracles that I've witnessed and the joy and
(06:05):
peace and love and all the fruits of the spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost that I have
enjoyed throughout my life growing up in a home that believed and practiced the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
I mean, Scott, I've been so blessed to live up, to be raised up into a home where I saw
(06:31):
the gospel of Jesus Christ in action, you know, and I, I know there's other great people
and there's other righteous individuals of all churches and all religion, but, but I
tasted the fruit of the gospel in my home.
I saw the evidence of the witnesses of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit
(06:54):
in my home.
I grew up immersed in it and it's sometimes harder to, I think, fully appreciate it until
you lose it.
And it's kind of like a, taking a fish out of water when you lose it.
All of a sudden you really can see it.
And I, I never really had to, had to lose it or have it taken from me.
(07:19):
I never, I had a pretty ideal like a childhood and I'm really thankful for that.
And my heart really goes out to others whose members, whose families, parents, or maybe
members of the church who maybe didn't see all that, who didn't see all the fruits of
the gospel or who, who had real abuse or challenges in their families who supposedly, you know,
(07:49):
were members of the church and believed in the gospel.
And my heart really goes out to those folks.
But I was from pretty early on, Scott, I, I was having spiritual experiences.
And I maybe didn't recognize them always that way, but in our family home evenings, both
in our, our immediate family, but I was the youngest in the family.
(08:13):
So by the time it was really important to me, you came along when I was like eight years
old and all my nieces and nephews and we'd have those kind of extended family home evenings.
And oftentimes those would go into testimony meetings and we would hear my dad, your grand
(08:34):
dad, my mom, your grandma, and my brothers and sisters bear testimony to see my own,
my brothers and sisters before me get married in the temple.
And, and, you know, I, I was really blessed to be brought up in that kind of an environment.
(08:55):
But it's not, it's really get me, get me on that, leave home, go out on your own.
Scott, that, that won't necessarily be enough for anybody to be able to endure in the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
And I had to get my own testimony.
I had to get my own witness of the truth and, and I did.
(09:18):
And I think the first experience really personally was when I went to the mountain where we would
hunt, you know, and had that experience, which I think I've maybe have shared on previous
podcast about praying, crying out, but it's worth sharing, crying out to God down near
(09:39):
the Parker mountains and central Utah, southern central Utah and crying out and hearing a
voice and having my prayers answered.
And I knew God knew me.
I knew he was aware of me.
And I knew that he'd heard and answered my prayer after some fasting two or three days
(10:03):
and being on the mountain.
And when I'm my mission, knowing that God was aware of me and that he was in control
and that, and that I was where I was supposed to be.
And then on my mission, having, uh, many personal experiences, Scott, uh, seeing miracles, uh,
(10:28):
priesthood miracles on my mission.
First time, uh, in my lifetime where I ever using the priesthood.
In fact, this is interesting.
I have a golfing buddy, uh, from Fresno, California, and he went home to his sisters.
This past, uh, few months to visit her for the holidays.
(10:52):
He went back to Fresno, his hometown, and he walks in and there's con and Karen bidders.
And, uh, he said, Oh, you know, you know, Dave Durfing, they said, yeah, oh yeah, elder
Durf, yeah, yeah, we know him.
And this is a couple that, um, I had seen baptized and had helped to, to teach and he
(11:21):
got another, they were, they were school teachers, both of them.
And he got another school teacher interested and we were teaching her 22, 23 year old young
woman and, uh, Susan and we got, she committed to be baptized and con couldn't move his arm
(11:41):
the night before he was the baptizer, his right arm.
He couldn't, he couldn't raise it.
It was, he was in terrible pain and Karen calls me up this back in 1974, Scott.
And so 51 years ago and he calls me up and, and says, you know, I can't move my arm.
(12:05):
Would you give me a blessing?
Actually Karen, Karen called me his wife.
Would you give con a blessing?
So they come over and I give them a nice blessing and they leave and it's about nine, 10 o'clock
when they leave two AM, she calls me back and I hear, I can hear him actually groaning
in the background.
Oh no.
And she says it's worse.
(12:25):
His arm is, it's not better.
It's worse.
That cannot, can, would you be willing to give him another blessing?
And I said, yeah, sure, of course.
And I didn't know what to, what else to say, but I knew I had about 20 minutes and I hurried
and got dressed.
I went into our little room where there was a sofa and I nailed down and I cried out to
(12:49):
God like I'd never prayed before and said, please, heavenly father, these are new, these
are new converts in the church.
Please, they have such great faith.
Please help me to say what thou would say if thou weren't here.
That was my prayer.
(13:10):
Anyway, they, they came and we laid our hands upon their head and first time in my life,
not the only time in my life, Scott, but the first time in my life where I said, I command
in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power and authority of the holy priesthood, I command
(13:32):
that your arm be healed.
A 20 year old missionary.
And when the blessing ended, he said, so when you said, I command your arm to be healed.
I felt something pop in my arm.
He was still somewhat in pain and they left and next morning, nine o'clock, we met him
(13:53):
at church.
He had no more pain in his arm.
His arm was completely numb.
He said, raised it to the square, his right arm to the square and baptized Susan Passey
and then Susan, that's her married name now.
Anyway, Susan Eiffler.
(14:16):
Then he went to the doctor.
And because he was worried about it, because it was numb and they took an X-ray and they
said, Oh, you've had bursitis.
You had an acute case of bursitis and usually we're just going to pop that sack of fluid,
but yours has popped and the fluid running in into your arm has pinched the nerve.
(14:36):
And that's why your, your arms know that they'll go away in the next 24 hours, which it did.
Scott, you know, that was not a psychological thing.
That wasn't a psychological miracle.
That wasn't a, I knew by again, the Holy Ghost that I could say that and God would honor
(14:59):
that and that was an immediate answer and miracle.
And I knew the priesthood power was real.
The betters knew the priesthood power was real.
And now here 51 years later today, I think they were in their late twenties when we taught
them and baptized them.
(15:20):
And now here they are in their late seventies and they're still so faithful, so active and
been such great members of the church after all these years.
But we, but we, we experienced that miracle together and there's been other priesthood
miracles and, and miracles in my life that I, and I know, I know we don't have a monopoly
(15:45):
on miracles.
You know, other religions, other churches, certain, certainly through faith and Jesus
Christ, certainly through the power of the spirit, God can heal and bless whoever he
wants Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whoever he wants.
(16:06):
I know that he answers their prayers and I know that he can heal and bless others, not
of our faith.
Yeah.
But I've experienced it in my personal life and I know the priesthood has been restored
in these last days.
I know the priesthood is real, the authority and power of it.
(16:26):
And it's, it's one of again, one of the real cornerstones, foundation stones of my, of
my testimony, Scott.
I know you've had some experience, personal experiences.
I'm listening to you and I'm reminiscing, you know, I'm going back and I'm, I'm remembering
(16:48):
those football games in the backyard that were followed by family night.
Yeah.
Right.
You and Mark beating up on each other.
Yeah.
Carl and Craig and Stephen and John and Paul and so fun and everybody else.
Yeah.
You used to instigate a lot of that.
It got me in a lot of trouble.
I was trying to toughen you up.
(17:10):
Well, you, you didn't do a very good job.
Yeah, I did.
But, you know, so I'm, I'm listening to you share all that and, and my experience was
the same.
Yeah, my response to the experience was a lot different though than yours was and that's
interesting.
You know, I'm, I'm, I haven't tried to and I, and I don't see a lot of fruit and really
(17:34):
analyzing why I chose not to see things the way others saw them.
I did see them and I did feel them and those, those, those testimony building experiences
still a foundation to the most important things in my life for sure.
There's no question.
I remember those.
I also remember experiences on Parker mountain that would not alone.
(17:56):
Well, that's not true.
I had a couple of alone where I would wander away from the deer camp, et cetera.
But, but I remember learning from what I idolized for whatever reason growing up.
I, I, I look at men, mostly men and think I want to be like that.
I want to be like that.
I want to be like that.
There's some characteristics and attributes that most of these men had.
(18:19):
Most of these men were tough.
Yeah.
They were men's men.
They were tough guys, you know, they, they were, they were, uh, and, you know, and when
I'm, and when I'm referring to this, I'm also referring to men in my mom's side of the family,
my grandpa Fagan specifically, just an absolute hard cowboy kind of guy.
Yeah.
And, and, and I, and I looked to that and I saw that as I want to be like that one day.
(18:43):
I wasn't like that inside.
You know, I was a wimpy little kid inside most of the time during those times, but as
I was growing, I didn't respond to those same experience, the experiences that we had, David
shared together and individual.
I didn't respond to them the same way you did.
Um, and, and, and I've wondered why again, it doesn't matter at this point, but I wandered,
(19:06):
you know, I, I, and in my wandering, I didn't wonder.
It was wandering, not wondering, you know, it was an outright rebellion.
Uh, and, and for whatever reason, I, I can relate to maybe layman and Lemuel a little
bit on that, uh, level and I, and I'm, I'm not trying to be funny.
There's just a rebellious streak that I, I, for whatever reason experienced, but that
(19:28):
rebellious streak, Dave, for me ended up being the impetus to my sure knowledge or as
sure knowledge as I can come to at this point in my life, because what that did for me was
that ripped out all of the comforts that were, would be afforded a young man by the spirit.
They ripped away a lot of the direction that would have come, um, and so forth.
(19:54):
I still made decisions and I still made choices to act appropriately and do certain things
right, like go on a mission.
And I, I didn't go on my mission to make everybody else happy.
I went on my mission because I had a testimony and at that point in my life, I was ready
to be done with everything in my life that had been rebellion up until that point in
my life.
And I really was, I really, really was.
(20:16):
I went on my mission, had a great mission, had some of the same experiences that you
just shared in healings and teachings and, uh, and all of that and, and, and had witness
to myself, came home off my mission.
And what I had not realized that there was a part of the fall of Adam and Eve that was
affecting me and that my body had become addicted to chemical and, and, and other things that,
(20:41):
um, would pull me away from the spirit, which it did.
And so I went home very long and I started drinking again and, and I didn't realize until
much later I was drinking again to numb some of the inadequacies and bad feelings and so
forth that I was listening to the voice of the accuser, Satan in my life, who wanted me
to believe that I wasn't worth much.
(21:01):
And so what did it matter anyway?
Well, then there comes a point in your life, you know, I have four children.
I've gone through a divorce or two and, and a lot of other things, you know, that it was
just like, okay, I can't, I no longer can.
And there, and you know, we read about, um, for example, we read about in the Book of
(21:22):
Mormon specifically, Alma the younger and others who, who have these experiences where
there's an absolute crying out where, where there's a, um, I've done everything I can
and I just can't get my life right again.
Um, maybe it never was at that point, but I just can't get my life right again.
(21:43):
So it was in acknowledging and recognizing that I had zero power.
My life had become absolutely unmanageable because I had given up my ability to make
decisions and choices around free agency types of things.
Um, I was subject to the devil.
I was subject to my addiction.
(22:03):
I was subject to my alcoholism until, and this is this, I, my testimony and my relationship
of the Godhead was foundation.
The foundation of that was built in those experiences that you shared, but, but it was
fortified and made whole by my experiences that I later got.
(22:26):
And you're right.
You know, the church of Jesus Christ, water, they say it does not have a corner.
They're not the only way to get the spirit in our lives and to have those kinds of healings.
We're the only way for it to be completed, but we aren't the only way for them to begin.
And, and they began to happen as I began to turn my will in my life over to a God that
(22:47):
maybe I just changed the way I viewed him a little bit.
Say prior to that, I had for whatever reason decided that God was mad at me.
Why wouldn't he be when I made a mistake?
When I love my dad and I get mad at my kids too and they make mistakes, but when I got
in trouble, my dad got mad at me and punishment often ensued as it should.
(23:10):
It's not a criticism on my dad punishment often ensued.
And so I saw God as being like my dad and being that way.
You know, he was mad at me and there was sure going to be punishment.
Well, if there's going to be punishment, then maybe it's more convenient if I can deny it.
Maybe it's more convenient if I can run from it and all that other stuff.
And the running and denying runs out, all you're left with is you and your raw reality.
(23:33):
And in that raw reality, there was a lot of scar tissue, an awful lot of scar tissue,
but that scar tissue could only be healed by God, by Heavenly Father.
And I came to realize that it was through his Son, Jesus Christ, administered to me by
the administration of his Atonement and the blessings from it by the Holy Ghost.
(23:54):
But that's my experience, you know.
And my experience is today still point back to that experience.
My experience, the reason I, and I have a intimate deep relationship with my Heavenly
Father and it's becoming deeper every day.
And while I'm constantly working on it, I'm not there.
But the reason I believe that it's that way is because I needed it so badly.
(24:21):
And I recognize we all do.
But I would, for whatever reason, I was afforded the gift to know that, I call it the gift
of desperation, the gift of desperation to know that without God, I have myself and literally
less than nothing, less than zero.
And so, you know, my experience was, was spawned out of necessity, I believe, you know.
(24:50):
I think it is for all of us, but that's the way I see it.
It doesn't make me special, doesn't make me better.
In fact, there's a lot of challenges that I'm still working through that I still face
because of wreckage of my past, right?
But by the grace of a loving God, my experience has been that by the merits of Christ, all
(25:10):
of that is made okay.
And so, you know, when we talk about spiritual experiences, that's a ton of different little
spiritual experiences all wrapped into that experience.
Well, whether you're a fish in the water, whether you're a fish out of the water, both
fish have to come to a, not just a testimony, but I think we talked about this a few times
(25:35):
ago, a few podcasts ago, difference between testimony and conversion.
Both fish have to be converted.
Both have to know that they're fallen, that they're lost, that they're, they can merit
nothing of themselves as the Book of Mormon teaches, and they have to receive a forgiveness
of sin and be born again.
(25:56):
That's more than just knowing that it's true.
They have to be transformed.
They have to be changed.
They have to know.
I had to know as much as you had to know and learn for yourself that it's not about conforming.
It's not about performing.
It's about Christ transforming us.
(26:17):
I love the way you put that.
And that's what we both had to come to know.
So whether you're a fish in the water and you never rebelled and you grow up in the
Gospel of Jesus Christ and you're basically, you never really leave the path or you're
a fish out of the water and you feel like you may or may never really got your feet
planted on the path and you were off and you were running across back and forth the path
(26:41):
throughout your life.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is that you got to the tree.
You got to the tree of life and you partook.
And you partook of the love of God and the Atonement of Jesus Christ and you were transformed.
And you fell down.
You weren't those who were the clingers who partook of the fruit.
(27:04):
Then you saw the Great and Spacious Building.
But rather you partook of the fruit of love and forgiveness and grace of God and you
fell down on your knees in gratitude.
Scott, that's being converted to the Lord and that's much deeper and more important
(27:25):
really than having a testimony of the church.
And there's lots of people, I think, that only get to the testimony of the church and
they're the ones who see the Great and Spacious Building and they leave.
They may be taste of the fruit just a little bit, but they see the Great and Spacious Building
and then they're jumping over the water to get there.
(27:48):
But if you have been converted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to the Lord, you will
fall down and you will stay.
You will choose to not just believe, but you will choose to stay.
And we led very different lives, but we got to the same point.
(28:12):
That's what's important.
That's right.
That's right.
It's about the conversion and the transformation of your life that matters.
And so I'm just going to say this because there's probably those who listen.
In fact, I know there is those who listen that have been down a similar path that maybe
I've been down.
Today, Dave, the challenge that there's still challenges and one of the main challenges
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today is I've even felt this.
I've even had this experience just sitting here in the last couple of minutes as I was
listening to you.
You know, there's a little tinge of guilt inside of me saying, man, Scott, you should
have screwed up.
You know, you should have.
You should have cut a wood.
And again, whispering of the adversary, right?
(28:56):
The accuser accusing me.
Yeah, and our own insecurities and fears and all that Scott, but the bottom line is,
but the bottom line is this, you're ever bit as dependent on the mercies, graces and love
of Jesus Christ as I am and no less and no less.
And that's that's the important thing that we all when we start drawing comparisons and
(29:19):
we do that.
I mean, I think it's just a natural thing that humans and maybe some of us are more
susceptible to this and others, but we do start comparing ourselves and by comparison,
I see, oh man, I should have done better.
But then I realize, don't compare me.
I need to compare him, compare him to what compare him to my problems.
(29:40):
My problems are swallowed up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, yeah, that's my experience and that's and date.
That is exactly that is exactly why I stay because there's no, there's no human or other
power that could have relieved my alcoholism.
There was only one.
(30:00):
Yeah.
Now one is God.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the Glacians 522, I think it's such a sweet description of the fruits of the spirit
Scott, which I think so many people in this world do not understand or or they're not
(30:20):
able to quite capture in their life, you know, the gifts of joy and peace and love that we
feel because of the conversion and our redemption in Jesus Christ and our relationship with
him.
(30:41):
Again, I know we don't have a corner on the market or an monopoly in that either, but
wow, Scott, we are so blessed to be able to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ,
which gives us a little deeper joy, I believe, a little firmer peace and a little more love
(31:02):
and charity in our lives because of the confidence and the assurance and the level of hope that
is in our life because of ordinances and covenants and our relationship and our understanding
of who God is and who we are in relationship to him and who God is and who Jesus Christ
(31:29):
is and their relationship to each other.
I mean, just just our beliefs in the Holy Trinity, Scott makes makes things just so much
more clear in my mind about their relationship with each other and how I'm a joint air through
ordinances and covenants with Jesus Christ to the Father and how with the help of the
(31:53):
Holy Ghost and through Jesus Christ and his Atonement, I can enter into the presence of
the Father.
That's just all so clear in the Holy Temple and the ordinances that we participate in,
right, and all of that strengthens our relationship with him, which really leads us into the—and
(32:14):
you know, Scott, I just want to say something about the commandments, too.
I think the commandments themselves are evidence and witnesses as well as personal reasons why
I stay active in the church.
The protection and blessings of keeping the commandments, right?
Lord of wisdom, the law of chastity, commandments, tithing, the blessings, blessings and promises
(32:41):
and miracles of paying tithing, man, keeping the Sabbath day holy.
These commandments that God has given us, which we are encouraged to obey for those who
stay active in the gospel of Jesus Christ, are God's way of not only protecting us,
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but of elevating us and blessing us and helping us to qualify for his presence in the presence
of the Holy Ghost in our life.
I'm really grateful for them, and I see the commandments, some of them the restored commandments
of the restored church, of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as some of the evidences of
(33:32):
the truthfulness of the restoration.
Well, and definitely, I see the commandments and all of the law of God as an expression
of God's love for us.
He said it, it's safe, you know, and all of that.
Evidence of his love.
But it's definitely an evidence, outright evidence of his love for us.
Yeah.
Well, that's all of that personal experience, personal life is all part of the reason why
(33:57):
I choose to believe, why I choose to stay.
And I hope people are trying to have personal experiences daily, weekly, monthly.
There's ways to do that, you know, and remember them, journal them, right?
Be grateful for them.
See God's hand in their life.
Sure, and when it's appropriate with those that you love, that love you, that may be
struggling to understand these principles themselves, given the right circumstances,
(34:23):
etc.
One of those to David, and we touched on this as prayer, but that, but that's one that
if daily, you know, and even more, I mean, you know, we're commanded to pray always in
our fields and our closets in our, in public by ourselves and private and all of that,
you know, that, that relationship that that that it's a really a miraculous relationship
(34:49):
that we're given as we engage in that prayer.
I mentioned earlier, I had a contorted view of my relationship with God or rather God's
relationship with me.
That didn't change until I started talking to God again.
Right.
Right.
And I needed to know not what I was left with my thoughts and the silent whisperings
(35:15):
of the adversary that that didn't help me.
What helped me was having those conversations and those pouring out my hearts and even those
expressions of frustration and I don't understand it.
And maybe you can help me or, you know, those kinds of things and that, but we can do that
daily.
Well, it's, it is not just talking to him.
(35:37):
It was the fact that you knew he was listening and it's the connecting to him.
Yeah.
It's the connecting with him that, that has such power in our lives.
So yeah, that's, that's good Scott, the power of prayer, such an important part of the reason
(35:57):
why I choose to believe and stay.
Roman numeral number three, Scott is about our relationship with God and we've already
touched on some of these things, but it seemed to me to be kind of a separate third point.
(36:17):
And it's, you know, it's based on really the scripture in John 17 three, then this is
life eternal that they might know the, the only true God in Jesus Christ and that was
sin.
You know, at the very heart of this God, it's the Prophet Joseph Smith said, man cannot
begin to comprehend themselves until they comprehend God.
(36:41):
I have found that to really be true throughout my life that, that my personal identity and
who I am is very much tied to bound to my understanding of who God is.
And because I know who God is as my loving heavenly father, the father of my spirit and
(37:08):
that I'm his son, man, Scott, that, that has makes such a difference in my worship and
in my, uh, where I'm at in relationship to him and to everyone else because I know of
where I stand with him.
(37:28):
I don't know if other people have this experience when they pray, but of course when I pray,
all of the things I try with all my heart to express my gratitude for, thank him for
is, is his only begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ, his only begotten son in the flesh,
(37:50):
his firstborn son in the spirit in the pre moral existence.
And I try to thank him for that.
And then I thank him that I'm his son too.
I, I, you know, without taking anything away from Jesus Christ and who the same, my savior
redeemer is often to my prayer, I say in father, I'm grateful that I'm your son too.
(38:20):
And help me to be a better son.
Help me to be a more faithful, loyal, serviceable son.
You know, I say that often in my prayers because I think about that relationship.
So because I through the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, I can begin to comprehend God.
(38:46):
I begin to comprehend myself and it makes all the difference in, in my identity and
identity.
Right.
We started this whole podcast three years ago based on identity is everything identity
determines your eternity identity.
Honestly, Scott, we wouldn't even know who we are or not believe who we are if it wasn't
(39:11):
for the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
And I think there's a lot of people who leave, who, who believe that and they leave.
And I think, wow, their whole identity is at stake.
And not, not just, not just their membership in the church, forget that, but their whole
identity is at stake and in danger.
(39:35):
If they don't, if they don't believe in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, think of
the truths and understanding and wisdom that they're leaving behind in terms of, of who
they are and who God is.
So that, that's a big one.
And not only who I am, but who's I am and the fact of our relationship with Jesus Christ
(40:02):
and that we, his blood purchased us and that he, he, uh, oh, he, the died for us, uh, that
he, I owe him.
I, my reconciliation, my, my debt is, is to him because of his, uh, atoning sacrifice
(40:26):
and suffering and, uh, that I can be a joyed heir with him.
Scott Paul teaches that in the Bible, but no, nobody else seems to really understand
what that means that we are sons of God.
I mean, this is in Romans eight, the Holy spirit bears witness to, to our spirit that
(40:46):
we are children of God and or sons of God, children of God, heirs.
And if heirs, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, I know, I know what that means because of
the restored gospel of Jesus Christ when so many others don't have a complete understanding
of that.
(41:06):
So that's just one of the points under knowledge in our relationship with the Godhead.
Another one is understanding, really understanding the plan of redemption and the atonement and
the, what went into the atonement?
Why did I need an atonement?
Uh, why did I need a redeemer, the doctrine of the fall, Scott?
(41:28):
I mean, most religions, most churches believe the fall was evil.
It was bad.
It was a big mistake.
Adam and Eve really blew it for us.
Well, we have a complete different understanding of the fall and the need for a redeemer and
the plan of redemption because we understand the fall because of the book of Mormon and
(41:49):
the truths restored in the book of Mormon.
So that has such a profound effect in my relationship with, uh, my heavenly father and understanding
who I am as a, as a human as a fallen being.
And that that's, that was all part of God's plan.
And when I sin, he knew I would sin.
(42:10):
That's why we have a redeemer justice, mercy, and how those two laws interact with each
other.
Everything about the plan of redemption.
Yeah.
It just really affects our relationship.
That was the, that was the part of my experience that I think that I was trying to, to say,
I think you just pointed that out.
(42:33):
It really is.
It's about that relationship with deity.
Yeah.
Uh, it's God wasn't mad at Adam and Eve.
It was part of the plan.
Right.
If that's part of the plan, then my fallenness must also be, now I'm not excusing it and
then there were definite mistakes.
It shouldn't happen, but, but my fallenness may also, maybe then also be part of the plan
if at least the redemption from my fallenness is part of the plan.
(42:59):
Seeing because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be permanently lost.
Right.
As bad as mortality can be and as bad as man can be and as bad as our choices and decisions
and sins may be Scott doesn't go beyond the love of God and the power and mercy and grace
(43:24):
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And what, what does that teach us about the character attributes and perfections of God
and his plan anyway?
Uh, so knowing who we are, the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, we talk a lot about our
relationship with the father and the son, but there's only one place in all the scriptures
(43:47):
where it says you can have a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, Scott, and that's in the
Doctrine and Covenants, section 121.
Verse 46, I'm going to read it.
The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion and thy sceptre and unchanging sceptre of
righteousness and truth and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion and without
(44:07):
compulsory means that shall flow into thee forever and ever.
Okay, that is so full of doctor.
That verse is so loaded in credible and and that's in the Doctrine and Covenants that
there was a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail.
One verse, one verse, the only place where you can be worried where the doctrine is taught
(44:33):
that the Holy Ghost is our constant companion.
I take that pretty literally, Scott.
I believe that the everyone is entitled to the power of the Holy Ghost and from time
to time, the Holy Ghost can teach individuals truth.
He can warn them.
He can give anyone in this world revelation that the Father wants to wants to communicate
(44:55):
with or use the Holy Ghost as a agent of change and love, whatever.
But we believe that we are able to have the Holy Ghost as a constant, constant companion.
Scott, there is no besides our agency there and besides the gift of Jesus Christ and his
(45:24):
Atonement, there is no other gift that God has given us in this life greater than the
gift of the Holy Ghost as our constant companion.
Now I know that I'm a sinner.
I know I'm never perfect or sinless or ever completely, fully worthy of that gift.
(45:53):
But Scott, I really believe he's with me almost all the time, unless I just don't even want
him with me.
And I know there's people like that and I've been like that in my life.
He hasn't been with me for all the time.
I know that I rebelled to and that I sin and what I do, I, I, I know that the Holy Spirit
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cannot man cannot keep God and the spirit in his life when they sin.
But when I repent, I know that he can be my constant companion.
And then because of him in that verse, it says that because of the gift of the Holy
Ghost working upon us, I think the Holy Ghost can change us.
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He is the power and agent of change and that it is through him that we can eternally progress.
What do you see in that verse in terms of the doctrine of eternal progression?
It says, and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion.
Dominions, we have dominions kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers.
(47:00):
And without compulsory means, it shall flow into the forever.
I think that's as big a miracle as any of it.
Yeah, just flows.
Just without compulsion as long as right.
We have that unchanging righteous, a sceptre of righteousness and truth.
Thy dominion shall be an everlasting, never ending dominion.
(47:23):
And without compulsory means without compulsion, it will flow into the forever and ever.
It's amazing.
The eternity, the eternity of man and the eternal relationship with a member of the
Godhead.
I mean, he's a, he's a member of the Godhead and we can have him as a constant companion.
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That's why I believe in stay.
Yeah.
Why would I go and leave that?
Yeah.
Oh man.
Anyway.
So the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, so many, so many blessings, so many gifts.
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It deepens, it strengthens, it expands my reverence for God and how I worship him in
the name of Jesus Christ.
Kind of understanding that relationship.
I worship the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jacob actually says that in Jacob chapter two.
Of course, I worship Jesus Christ.
(48:30):
Of course, I worship in the name of Jesus Christ and I worship the Godhead, the Father,
the Son, the Holy Ghost, but I also understand that there's a hierarchy there.
I understand that and I know Jesus taught that that we pray to the Father in the name
of the Son and I understand that relationship.
(48:51):
I don't pray to Jesus.
I don't pray to the Holy Ghost.
I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ as prompted and directed by the Holy
Spirit.
Words are given to me by the Spirit what I should pray for.
I understand that relationship, Scott, and it makes my prayers more effective.
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It makes my relationship more, more clear in my, more, more clear in my mind.
All of that's part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
And then to enjoy the confidence because of that relationship we have with our Heavenly
(49:34):
Father and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost because of knowing that we've entered
into covenants with Him, with them, to know my standing before God as a joint heir with
Christ.
Honestly, that brings just so much peace and purpose and joy in my life, Scott, that that's
(50:01):
why I choose to believe and stay.
And finally, the last point I have under my relationship is that we understand a lot about
the second coming of Jesus Christ.
We understand not just the plan of redemption, the plan of mercy, but we understand something
about the plan and the timing, the overall picture of God and the salvation of this earth
(50:27):
and all the people that live on this earth, which leads me to look forward to with eager
anticipation to watch for the second coming of Jesus Christ and the winding up of these
events.
I just, I really look forward to the second coming of Jesus Christ.
(50:49):
I don't dread it.
I'm not afraid of it.
I pray for it.
Like John says, it's so, I think it's so awesome, kind of cute how John ends his gospel, you
know, praying for the second coming praying for Jesus to come again.
And he says, and come quickly.
(51:11):
I love that.
That's how I feel.
Oh, please, Jesus, come quickly.
And we've been commanded and to watch for the second coming.
And we've been given the signs to watch for now.
I know they're in the Bible.
They're also in the Book of Mormon.
And there's even additional signs that the Bible and the Book of Mormon don't contain
(51:32):
in the doctorate and confidence and the Pearl of Great Price in the in the Book of Moses.
Anyways, it's got and we have a whole chapter in the Pearl of Great Price on Matthew 24,
which is all about the events preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ.
And we have section 45, which talks about the second coming of Jesus Christ.
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And we know that because of the revelations and the restoration that we are the children
of light and that he should not come to us as a thief in the night.
But we will know when he's coming.
We'll participate in those events at Adam on the almond.
I I just really that's a big part of why I choose to believe and stay is because of the
(52:22):
events preceding and the events of and the events following the second coming of Jesus
Christ.
That's that's a big deal, Scott.
Yeah, it's gonna make Christmas look pretty insignificant when we start celebrating the
second coming of Jesus Christ and when he comes, whatever day that might be.
(52:45):
But I know it's through the restoration and that we can be prepared for that.
So those are all reasons why I believe and stay.
The I love that you have these in kind of an order, you know, evidences and witnesses,
(53:06):
personal experiences.
And then I love that how you've kind of held this one back for the knowledge of and relationship
with the Godhead.
I don't I don't know if you could probably the most precious one.
Well, I think the other two make it so that that one can happen.
(53:26):
Yeah, you know, and I see this also, we talk about faith being a helix.
I see this also as being a helix, Dave.
Yeah, I see I see that as my knowledge and my relationship, my relationship with my relationship
with Godhead is the most important, the absolute most important activity endeavor.
(53:47):
I shouldn't even call it an activity, but endeavor that I can be involved in period.
Personal experiences, evidences and witnesses lent to that.
Yeah, but but those personal experiences and evidences and witnesses become even more
pronounced even more even more obvious to me, depending on the depth of my relationship
(54:08):
and knowledge with Godhead.
So without a relationship, all those personal experience evidences and witnesses would be
really worth a really matter.
That's right.
So you know, one needful thing.
Exactly.
That's it.
There's one needful thing.
And that third point encapsulates that one needful thing from chapter two knowing their
(54:32):
characters, their attributes, their perfections, being able to have faith in them and a relationship
with them.
Oh, Scott, that's really that's that's everything.
That's that's the I guess that's the bottom line.
You know, and when everybody starts to leave Jesus, you know, in John chapter six, because
(54:55):
he's taught some hard doctrine and they can't quite understand it and wrap their mind around
it or believe in him.
And he asked his disciples, are you also going to leave?
Yeah.
And they said, Peter says.
Hey, where else would we go, Lord?
Right.
Nobody else has the words of eternal life or life with God.
(55:17):
So nobody else can teach us about life with God.
Peter makes that observation.
And that's an important observation.
This is the same Peter that when Jesus said to him, whom say, whom say, man that I am?
Yeah.
And Peter said, will they say you're this guy or that guy or this and then Jesus says,
yeah, but Peter, who do you say that I am?
(55:38):
Right.
And he says, thou art the living Christ, the Christ, the son of the living God.
Right.
And Jesus said, blessed art thou, Simon, bar Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed
it to thee, but my father, which is in heaven, my father, which is in heaven revealed that
to Peter and he will to us again through the third member of the Godhead, the power and
(56:01):
gifted in our constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Yep.
Amen.
And that's what it's all about.
That's why I choose to believe.
And that's why I choose to stay.
And I really feel like I can't afford not to choose to believe at this point in my life.
The cost has been too great.
Yeah.
(56:21):
The cost.
The eternal relationship, Scott, that we can have the eternal progression that we believe
in.
Yeah.
The idea we haven't even talked about this, which I think so sacred, but I know evangelicals
and anti's love to criticize us for the idea, which I believe was taught by early Christian
(56:41):
fathers that we can become like God.
Yeah.
That we, we, I know only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ is that possible.
I know only through his gifts and only through his power that's possible, but that any father,
really loving father, again, that comes back to knowing God.
And it comes back to a relationship with that loving God.
(57:04):
Knowing, knowing him and having a relationship with him that he wants us to become like him
errors.
Nobody else believes that Scott joined errors with Christ.
Nobody else believes that.
And I find that to be so humbling, so motivating, so hopeful, so graceful, merciful words can
(57:32):
describe it.
I choose to believe and I choose to stay and I know I have a lot of work to do.
Yeah, me too.
I have a lot of work to do.
And one last, one last thing.
I know we got to wind this up, but there are the fourth Roman emerald pointers, true points
of doctrine.
Scott and we've touched on almost all of these, eternal progression, salvation of children.
(57:57):
I think that's one of the most precious points of doctrine of the restoration is that we
know where babies go when they die.
When I'm stealing children to families in the two couples to parents in the temple and
I see on a ordinance card that this child does not need to be baptized, didn't need an
(58:17):
ischeterie endowment or any temple work.
All they need to do is be sealed to their parents.
I always think about this point of doctrine that we know where babies go.
And because of my again, personal experience in baring some babies that my wife had in
(58:38):
stillborn that we're stillborn.
And I know there's no official doctrine on stillborns, but I know that I'm going to raise
three sons in the millennium.
And I know that babies who die before the age of eight are unaccountable and I know they
go to heaven and I know they are go to the celestial kingdom unconditionally.
(58:59):
No one else teaches that Scott.
No one else understands what happens to babies.
That point of doctrine alone helps me to believe in the God I believe in, the loving merciful
God I believe in.
Nobody believes that in a God of more mercy and grace than we do Scott, who has saved about
(59:25):
50% of their children in the celestial kingdom because 200 years ago 50% of children never
made it to the age of eight.
200 years ago and prior.
I'm right.
All the way back to Adam.
Exactly.
They never made it to eight years old.
How many of God's children are in the celestial kingdom?
(59:47):
This point of doctrine and alone helps me in my relationship with God to know who he is
and to know how fair life will be because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ that makes
all of these blessings possible that we can actually be with our children and our families
(01:00:14):
together forever.
Well, Scott, all of these points of doctrine, which are only the result of the restoration
of the fullness of the gospel in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith and
the revelations given through him and living prophets is why I choose to believe and why
(01:00:43):
I choose to stay.
You know, who else where else might I go and receive the words of eternal life or life
with God?
Well, and I pray that each of us will seek as Peter did to receive that spiritual witness
that he is the son of the living God that because of his sacrifice because of God's
(01:01:07):
great love for us and the gift of his son and the gift of the Holy Ghost that God has
given us that that demonstration of love binds me to him, not just through the sealing
covenant, but through my love and commitment because he loved me first.
I'm grateful to know that today.
Amen.
(01:01:27):
Thank you.
Thanks for being with us, everybody.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And until then, be well.
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