January 16, 2025 • 30 mins
What does embracing pleasure look like as a woman whether your a woman without kids, a mom, a woman in menopause, a grandmother, etc? In this conversation with Dr. Rosalyn Dischiavo, founder of the Institute for Sexuality Education and Enlightenment and author of The Deep Yes: The Lost Art of True Receiving, she shares her personal and professional journey into sex education and therapy, exploring the profound intersections of sexual health, mental well-being, and personal identity. She dives into her story of overcoming infertility, pursuing a doctoral degree, and the importance of integrating pleasure and desire into our holistic health practices.
Rosalyn reflects on how societal messages, like the Madonna-whore complex and hustle culture, inhibit our ability to truly experience life’s joys like enjoying a sunset or embracing intimacy. She wants us to rethink our relationship with pleasure and provides actionable insights for cultivating deeper connections with themselves and our partners.
This is a conversation that goes beyond sex. It’s about reclaiming wholeness, honoring our bodies, and redefining how we show up in the world.
Connect with Dr. Roz:
http://instituteforsexuality.com
IG: @HolisticSexEd https://www.instagram.com/holisticsexed/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/InstituteforSEE
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Yes-Lost-True-Receiving-ebook/dp/B01COCGE74/ref=monarch_sidesheet_image
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Sexual health is not separate from mental health.
It's not separate from physicalhealth.
It's also not separate from ourlives.
We often think of it as a healthissue when really it's part of
who we are.
It's part of our identity.
But we also forget that this isa piece of us and we put it away
in this corner in the bedroomand say, this is where this
belongs.
And in fact, it doesn't.
So I find many people and womenin particular who they've done
(00:23):
all this work on themselves inevery area, but this is the one
area that they forget about andthey forget that it is attached
every other area of our livesand every other area of our
healing because it's attached toour body and if we're ashamed or
have been shamed even if wedon't think we are ashamed we've
all been shamed about our bodyor about sexuality then we are
(00:44):
also by definition and by proxyshaming our whole bodies so
shaming sex means shaming thewhole body shaming the whole
body bumps into women's issueswomen's bodies have not been
valued except for sexual objects
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrera, licensed professionalcounselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
We'll see you next time.
(01:43):
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieContrahera.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor.
And today I have with me RoslynDeCiavo.
(02:04):
And we're going to talk allabout sex education and sex
therapy.
And I'm really excited to divein.
So the first question that Ireally have for you is, you
know, how did you decide this isthe path that you wanted to take
and dive into sex education andteaching other people about sex
therapy and all there is to knowabout pleasure and desire?
SPEAKER_01 (02:26):
Yeah, thank you.
I get that question a lot,sometimes just from students who
are, you curious, but people whoaren't interested in our field
also want to know why the heckwould you want to do that?
It kind of baffles them.
So I've always been a healtheducator my entire career.
And I've been a health educatorside by side with being a
(02:49):
clinician.
I was a drug and alcoholcounselor for quite a while.
Then I was a marriage and familytherapist after that, you know,
doing individual therapy, all ofthese things.
But I always love to teach and Ialways love looking at health as
a holistic thing.
right?
Not one narrow aspect ofourselves, not mental health
(03:09):
separate from physical health.
Sexual health is not separatefrom mental health.
It's not separate from physicalhealth.
It's also just not separate fromour lives.
So we often think of it as ahealth issue when really it's
just part of who we are.
It's part of our identities.
So that's the sort of standardanswer.
But the more personal answer isthat I went through about 10
years of infertility treatment.
(03:31):
And I know you've talked aboutthat some on your podcast as
well.
And You know, I knew from wayback that I always wanted to get
a doctoral degree at some point,but I didn't want to get it just
for the purpose of a career.
I wanted to get it because Iwanted to study something
deeply, and I didn't want to getthe degree before I knew exactly
what that was.
If you're going to spend yearson something and basically write
(03:54):
a book on it, you know, you wantit to be something you love and
that you're passionate about, orat least I do.
So going through that, Irealized that sex was this big
area of life that even though Ihad always been pretty open
about it, I'd always been prettysex positive.
I never really delved into theparts of myself that needed
(04:15):
healing in that way.
And I never really delved deeplyinto that until I was in my late
30s, early 40s.
And having done that, I realizedthat this was really, I think, a
lost part of a lot of ourhealing.
We go and we do yoga and weexercise and we run marathons or
(04:36):
we go back to school.
We become mothers or whateverwe're going to do with our
personal lives, our relationallives.
But we also forget that this isa piece of us and we put it away
in this corner in the bedroomand say, this is where this
belongs.
And in fact, it doesn't.
And so I find many, many peopleand women also in particular,
(05:01):
who they've done all this workon themselves in every area, but
this is the one area that theyforget about.
And they forget that it isattached to every other area of
our lives and every other areaof our healing because it's
attached to our body.
And if we're ashamed or havebeen shamed, even if we don't
(05:21):
think we are ashamed, we've allbeen shamed about our bodies or
about sexuality, then we arealso by definition and by proxy
shaming our whole bodies.
So shaming sex means shaming thewhole body.
Shaming the whole body bumpsinto women's issues.
Women's bodies have not beenshamed.
valued except for sexualobjects.
(05:43):
There's just so manyintersections with this.
When I went into the wholepersonal journey that I did, I
realized, wow, I want to studythis really deeply.
I want to get a doctoral degree.
When I got into my doctoralprogram, I recognized that There
was a set of people who studysex for academic reasons, and I
(06:04):
always call them the plumbers.
Like, if you can find theclitoris, everything's fine.
You know, if you know how todeal with premature ejaculation,
everything is fine, right?
And they're very mechanical.
And part of the reason for thatis because they were reacting
against people who wereindoctrinated into thinking that
sex was a moral issue.
(06:25):
So they kind of went theopposite and were like, it's all
mechanical and there's noproblems that can't be solved
that way.
And then there were people onthe other end of things that
were doing all kinds of amazingwork with personal growth, but
they didn't know a lot of thefacts about human sexuality.
And so after I finished mydoctoral program, I wanted to
bring those two things together.
I wanted to bring together thepeople who were interested in
(06:47):
personal and spiritual andmental growth and intellectual
growth.
together with the people whowere interested in the academics
of it and had really, reallygood information about human
sexuality from a scientificstandpoint.
So that is a very long answer toyour question, but it is how it
happened.
(07:07):
And so I opened Institute forSexuality Education and
Enlightenment in 2011 to bringthose pieces together.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And you have, from what I've seen on your website,
a broad base of different typesof courses that people can take.
I stumbled across it because itwas the only class that I found
on pregnancy and sexuality.
I just felt like scouring theinternet and there's such a
small amount of information outthere.
So yeah, when I took thatcourse, it was like really
(07:37):
appreciative that it was evenout there because that's
something that I'm reallyinterested in working with
people, whether it's about sexduring pregnancy or birth
traumas that impact your sexualrelationship or infertility that
impacts your sexual relationshipor your relationship with your
body.
Because you're like, why isn'tmy body not working?
Or all the things that peoplethink about when they think
(07:58):
about sex and becoming a motherand that journey.
SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Absolutely.
And it's sad, right?
It's a sad commentary that youcould only find one class on it.
But it's also, is it reallysurprising?
Because we have that Madonnawhore complex still in our
society that as soon as youbecome a mom, you're no longer a
sexual being, which isridiculous.
I mean, we become mothersbecause of sexuality, but right.
(08:24):
So yeah, I can understand that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Yeah.
So I guess I'm curious, youwrote this book called The Deep
Yes, The Lost Art of TrueReceiving.
I'd love to hear more about thatand what drove you to write that
book.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Thank you.
Yeah.
So the deep yes, it kind of cameout of my practice and my study
of tantra, which is an Indianpractice.
It's a spiritual practice,really.
And it's a sister science toAyurveda and it's a sister
science to yoga, but not a lotof people know about it.
And in the West, it's treated asan entirely sexual phenomenon
(09:01):
that, you know, it's all aboutsex and it's not.
Tantra is no more about sex thanyoga is, but you can apply it
towards sexuality.
And so I was studying that, andwhat I was realizing is that the
discussion of yin and yang,which is often seen as feminine
and masculine, I realized thatpart of the reason why this
(09:22):
culture absolutely worshipsmasculine energy, right?
And hyper-masculine energy.
not just healthy masculineenergy, which is all about doing
and initiating, buthyper-masculine, right?
Because we're a capitalisticsociety, we have to produce.
Everything has to be produced,produced, produced, produced,
(09:43):
produced, which means we have todo, do, do, do, do.
We're not allowed to just sitand be.
We can't just sit and rest.
But The feminine energy, or whatis considered feminine
traditionally, we can arguethat.
I have no problem with saying,look, let's just call it yin
energy.
It's not necessarily feminine.
It's not necessarily associatedwith women.
But that energy is the energy oftaking in.
(10:05):
It's the energy of receivingsomething.
And if you think about how tabooit is for people, and
particularly women, to say, Oh,thank you for that compliment.
You're right, I do lookbeautiful today.
Or thank you for this lovelygift instead of you shouldn't
have, right?
Or let me enjoy this amazing,delicious food instead of the
(10:29):
guilt because this food is toorich and I'm gonna gain weight
or it's too sugary or what haveyou, right?
So these are all ways that ourculture blocks receiving in
general and it worships the ideaof giving, right?
but is impossible to givewithout receiving.
You're receiving either way,right?
And to cut off and create adichotomy there when really it's
(10:52):
a continuum is really unhealthy.
So what happens is it thenbecomes unhealthy for us to
accept help.
It becomes unhealthy for us tocreate community.
All of the things that go alongwith not being able to receive.
So what I did was I wrote a bookabout embodied receiving how to
receive through the body acompliment, touch, your food,
(11:18):
sleep, all of these things thatare essential for our well-being
and not just our health.
And sex, of course, is onechapter.
But even how to receive beauty,how to really take in beauty
from our environment, how toreceive nature, these are not
things that we know how to dovery well anymore.
(11:39):
And some people are great at it,but most of us We have to remind
ourselves to do it.
So this book is ways to practicereceiving.
And they're very concrete, butit's not that abstract.
I mean, there are abstract partsof it, but it's also like, how
do you enjoy your food?
How do you enjoy your sleep andnot feel guilty for doing
something that is good for youto begin with, right?
(12:01):
So-
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
Yeah, it's so interesting, the idea that we've
created a culture in which evenjust the idea of simply enjoying
nature is so far removed fromwhat we do every day.
It's like nature's around us allthe time, but we're like, oh, we
need to get to work or, oh, weneed to go to the bank or, oh,
we need to do, again, do, do,do, do, rather than like, oh,
(12:24):
wow, look, the leaves arechanging.
And maybe people are enjoyingnature for the purpose of taking
a picture and posting it onsocial media, but maybe not
actually sitting and embracingits beauty.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Exactly.
And even when people are...
Let me go take a run in thewilderness.
A lot of times there's, okay,now I've got my...
My watch, my Apple watch, it'stelling me how many steps I've
taken or did I make good time.
So we can't even enjoy that.
There's got to be some goalattached or we feel guilty for
(12:59):
just walking around.
And I'm lucky I come from afamily where enjoyment of nature
is basically, I would say, astrong value in the family.
So if you're in the middle of aconversation, but some gorgeous
bird flies by, you areabsolutely expected to say, hey,
wait a minute, look at thatbird.
(13:21):
Let's interrupt what we're doingand stop and look at that bird
or that sunset or that mountainor whatever it is you're seeing.
And I think that's part of beingpresent is taking in these
things.
But it's also part of beingwell.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Yeah, it almost sounds like this idea of taking
mindfulness a step further, notjust noticing, but also
appreciating and allowingyourself to experience that
appreciation and allowingyourself to experience that
moment.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, and it's even more active than that, you know,
Stephanie, because if you canimagine yourself energetically
taking it in, right?
So there's the noticing moment.
which I think is one kind ofenergy.
That's almost yang energy whereyou're just sort of, you're
curious and you're going out ofyourself and noticing.
(14:09):
But if you're seeing this thing,then there's the yang and
there's the noticing, but thenyou're actually going, wow,
isn't that incredible?
And allowing all the feelingsand feeling it in your body.
Look at that bird.
Look at that sunset.
Look at that person.
Look at that gorgeous person.
Whatever it is that you're doingor Let me taste this apple.
(14:30):
Let me really taste it.
There's an energetic taking inthat goes beyond this idea of
mindfulness.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Interesting.
I think a lot of people wouldprobably really get a lot out of
this book as a reminder thatlife is more about doing, doing,
doing.
So I think even though we'vemaybe rephrased like hustle
culture and work hard, play hardover the past several years, I
think there's still thistendency to be in this doing
(14:58):
mindset.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Yeah.
And of course, that goes intothe sexual arena as well.
Because I know you wanted me totalk about that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
So where does sex come into allof us?
I know you wrote a chapterspecifically about that.
So yeah, how does one receive inthat space?
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Yeah.
So this starts with thequestion, do we allow ourselves
to feel pleasure?
Can we truly take in pleasure?
And many people cannot.
They literally cannot.
They feel guilty or they feelashamed or they feel that they
should be doing something moreworthwhile.
And so as a sex educator, youknow, as a therapist, of course,
(15:43):
I did it in session.
But now I get to do this in amuch larger scale because I'm
teaching groups of people and Iteach people who teach other
people.
So there's a ripple.
But if we talk about how do werelate to pleasure?
and our own pleasure?
And how do we begin to own it,begin to cherish it, begin to
(16:05):
honor it for the thing, theworthy thing that it is, one of
the things that makes lifeworthwhile?
And that's a really importantquestion that a lot of people
have never asked themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess it goes back to maybepeople when talking about sex
feel safer talking about it inthis more mechanical way rather
than this way of going back topleasure and desire and the
foundation of, I'm going to bebold and say what sex is about.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Yeah.
And I think it's really aboutboth.
I mean, that's why Institute forSex Education and Enlightenment,
the idea of those two wordstogether really meant to be Yes,
of course we need these piecesabout mechanics, right?
We do, because if you don't knowwhere your clitoris is or your
partner doesn't, you're probablynot gonna be having as much
pleasure.
(16:54):
Likely, doesn't mean absolutelynot, but likely you're not gonna
be having anywhere near as muchpleasure as if you know the
mechanics of that, right?
Or if you think you should befeeling pleasure in one part of
your body and you don't realizethat, hey, guess what?
Any part of your body can bepleasurable.
If it's your right shoulder,that's okay, you know?
These are things that we need toknow and there's mechanics
(17:14):
involved.
But yeah, I think the deeperquestions about how we allow
ourselves to receive thesethings is also equally
important.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
So what do you think is the biggest thing
misunderstood about women andsex and women and pleasure and
desire?
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Where to start?
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Big question.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yeah, big.
And in some ways, I hate to givethe obvious answers, but they
really are the obvious answers,which is women are taught that
we don't want to have sex.
And some don't.
And that's fine.
But the truth is that women canbe highly sexual.
They can be as sexual as anyother gender out there, right?
Or they might not be.
(17:55):
And it's very much on acontinuum, just like with
anyone.
The other thing I think that weget caught in is youth culture.
So we define...
our sexuality by what it waswhen we were younger or what we
think we should be by youngpeople.
We have that young rubric andthat comes from, unfortunately,
from research because researchis done largely on college
(18:16):
students because they are anavailable population of people
and it's hard to survey largerpopulations.
Luckily, in the last 20 yearswith the internet, that has
changed because now we haveaccess to large bodies of people
that we can research where wedidn't used to be able to do
that before.
It would have beenextraordinarily expensive.
Now it is cheap, cheap, cheap,cheap, cheap to do that, right?
(18:40):
So yeah, so there's the, wedon't want it or we're not
supposed to want it.
And both of those are problems.
But the other one is thatsomehow sex is this one thing,
right?
It's intercourse.
Maybe it's intercourse,heterosexual intercourse.
That orgasm is one thing, thatit should feel like one thing,
(19:02):
as opposed to there being many,many different kinds of orgasm
that any one particular personcan feel, right?
And I do think that women'sroles really get in the way.
I think that this piece aboutwhen you become a mother, you're
supposed to be more proper.
When you become a grandma,you're supposed to be more
proper, right?
Well, what about women who neverbecome mothers?
(19:24):
I'm one of those.
Does that mean I'm endlesslysexual?
Does it mean I'm not sexualbecause I was not a mom?
What does that even mean in ourculture?
What about mothers who want tobe sexual?
They want to continue their sexlives.
What about how sex changes whenpeople become mothers or
grandmothers or hit menopause orhave a breast cancer surgery and
(19:48):
recover from that?
What happens then?
So yeah, I think there are allkinds of questions that we have.
But I think shedding...
societal norms is a really bigask because women are also
socialized to be morecooperative and to go with the
flow and try and help everybodyget along.
(20:10):
And as such, we then tend towant to go along with the flow
more ourselves.
And so it's very hard for us tobuck these ideas without feeling
somehow guilty or somehow like afreak or an outsider.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
That's interesting.
I think I've seen a lot ofpeople feeling like they want to
speak up or they want to dosomething different, but then
feel like they need to be quietin order to get along.
That seems like a very commondynamic that I see with a lot of
my clients that I work with.
And so trying to figure outwhat's the balance of like,
(20:45):
maybe not pushing yourself tothe point where you feel like an
outsider and no one wants to bein relation with you, but also
trying still advocating foryourself.
And I think that's a, yeah, atightrope that a lot of women
find themselves in, whether it'sin sexual relationships or just
in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Yeah.
And I think this is why some ofthe shows that we love the most,
right?
It's really, really popularshows.
I go back a ways and I thinkabout the Golden Girls.
and how people love this show.
And they love Betty Whitebecause she was so, quote,
outrageous, right?
Because she was bucking thosenorms and they were bucking
those norms.
And now we have Grace andFrankie, which is an extremely
(21:26):
popular show about two olderwomen.
And they're continuing to talkabout sex and orgasms and
vibrators and all these things.
And they're starting their ownvibrator business and their own
lube business and all thesethings, right?
And so I think part of thereason we like these shows is
because we see...
hey, here's someone who's doingthis.
(21:47):
And it's unfortunate, but somepeople have to enjoy that
vicariously.
They can't own it forthemselves.
So it's both a great way tomodel something and also a
little bit telling as far aswhat we're attracted to, but
maybe feel like we can't quiteget to ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (22:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I'm even thinking of Sex and the City, right?
Everybody loved that show andloved living through those
women.
But I'm curious how much thatwas put into practice.
If there was any study thatfollowed, okay, people who
watched the show maybe felt moreempowered to speak about sex or
to be more sexual and show up inthat way in the relationships
(22:30):
differently.
But yeah, I think that would bean interesting research study to
see.
I wanted to...
transition a little bit to talkabout like, where do you think
sex education and speaking aboutsex in culture and in society is
headed?
And are we hopefully creating aculture and a movement where sex
(22:54):
is more positive and women feelmore empowered in their bodies?
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question right
now in 2024, in December of2024, right after an election,
right?
That is the million dollarquestion.
I don't know.
And the reason I don't know isbecause I'm not really sure
where we're going.
I can see disaster could strike.
(23:20):
I can see many ways in which italready has.
Some of the rights that havebeen taken away from women in
certain areas of this country,even when there's absolutely an
unambiguous scenario around itwhere perhaps there's absolutely
no way that A child's life couldbe saved, for instance.
(23:43):
That is still not okay to savethe mother, right?
I mean, some of these things arejust really frightening.
Having said that, I would saythat we're both in great danger
right now of losing many of therights that we have fought for
so hard.
And also, we have never seen...
(24:03):
a world with an internet beforewhen these things have happened
in our country, in this country,maybe other countries have.
But in this country, we haven'tseen this kind of revolution
where we still have a digitalconnection to other people and
other women in particular.
I don't know if it's a lotharder to lose your rights as a
(24:26):
woman, whether it be tohealthcare or whether it be to
voting.
in a culture where we can stilltalk to each other, or if in
fact it might be even easier forsomeone to take away those
rights because all they have todo is control the digital world,
which unfortunately there are atleast a couple of individuals
(24:49):
who probably are very close tobeing able to do that right now.
How many satellites has ElonMusk sent up?
I mean, many, many hundreds atthis point.
He has more satellites in orbitthan anyone else.
What does that mean?
Does that mean he could cut offdigital communication at some
point?
Does that mean he could controlwho gets to talk to who and
(25:09):
about what?
I don't know.
I know that sounds paranoid, butthe truth is I don't know.
So I'm not sure if it's actuallyeasier for women to lose their
rights now or not as easy.
And I am concerned that womenare going to lose rights.
I'm concerned that People ofcolor and BIPOC people are going
to lose their rights.
I'm concerned that, you know,LGBTQ people are going to lose
(25:33):
their rights.
I think it could very easilyhappen.
And women are always sort of thefirst place where that goes, you
know, or one of the first placeswhere that goes.
Let's take away women's rights.
And that is already happening.
So I don't know.
Sex education is not just aboutsex.
It's about the empowerment ofthe individual to say, this is
(25:54):
my body.
I may do whatever I want with itas long as I'm an adult and I'm
consenting with another adult.
So I wish I knew the answer tothat question.
SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
Which is why I think it's important to keep having
these conversations andeducating people and continuing
to try to do our best to connectin these ways.
Yeah, because who knows whatcould happen?
And again, not to be paranoid,but anything could happen.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (26:21):
think it's
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
important to do what we can every day to...
continue moving this needleforward rather than backwards.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
Yeah.
And I like to remind myself thatanything can happen and anything
can happen.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
That's true.
Well, where can people find youif they want to connect with
you, read your book or followyour educational classes that
you provide?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
thank you.
So the book is The Deep Yes, TheLost Art of True Receiving, and
it's on Amazon.
You can get Kindle version oryou can get paperback.
I do want to make an audio book,but I haven't gotten around to
it.
Maybe I can get some of youradvice about where to start,
Stephanie.
And the other one isinstituteforsexuality.com.
So Institute for Sex Educationand Enlightenment, which is
largely for professionaldevelopment, but which
(27:12):
absolutely any adult human couldwatch are classes and get a lot
out of them.
And I would recommend that ifit's not our program, at least
try and find a credible,somewhere credible to get your
information because there's alot of sex education out there
on the web right now.
And it's a lot of it is badinformation.
(27:32):
So even if you don't go to ourwebsite, which is
instituteforsexuality.com,please find a credible place for
your, for your education.
SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Well, we're going to be sharing all that information
in our show notes and any linksthat Dr.
Roslyn would like to share withyou.
And thank you so much for beingon today.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
Absolutely.
Thank you for asking me.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Thank you all for listening.
I hope you found someinspiration, validation, had
some questions answered, or justenjoyed listening to this week's
episode.
I encourage you to check out ourwebsite,
wellmindedcounseling.combackslash redefininguspod for
any resources that werementioned in today's episode.
(28:17):
Check out my new program on ourwebsite as well for first-time
moms, where you can join otherwomen entering into motherhood.
The program offers three phases.
Phase one, exploring where youare on your journey towards
motherhood and connecting withthis new identity.
Phase two, preparing your mind,body, and spirit for giving
birth.
And phase three, reconnecting toyourself while caring for your
(28:39):
baby.
I truly appreciate if you leavea review and rating so other
women can find us as well.
Thank you all for listeningagain and keep on connecting
with yourself and with others inthe community and redefining us.
Sexual health is not separate from mental health.
It's not separate from physicalhealth.
It's also not separate from ourlives.
We often think of it as a healthissue when really it's part of
who we are.
It's part of our identity.
But we also forget that this isa piece of us and we put it away
in this corner in the bedroomand say, this is where this
belongs.
And in fact, it doesn't.
So I find many people and womenin particular who they've done
(00:23):
all this work on themselves inevery area, but this is the one
area that they forget about andthey forget that it is attached
every other area of our livesand every other area of our
healing because it's attached toour body and if we're ashamed or
have been shamed even if wedon't think we are ashamed we've
all been shamed about our bodyor about sexuality then we are
(00:44):
also by definition and by proxyshaming our whole bodies so
shaming sex means shaming thewhole body shaming the whole
body bumps into women's issueswomen's bodies have not been
valued except for sexual objects
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrera, licensed professionalcounselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
We'll see you next time.
(01:43):
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieContrahera.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor.
And today I have with me RoslynDeCiavo.
(02:04):
And we're going to talk allabout sex education and sex
therapy.
And I'm really excited to divein.
So the first question that Ireally have for you is, you
know, how did you decide this isthe path that you wanted to take
and dive into sex education andteaching other people about sex
therapy and all there is to knowabout pleasure and desire?
SPEAKER_01 (02:26):
Yeah, thank you.
I get that question a lot,sometimes just from students who
are, you curious, but people whoaren't interested in our field
also want to know why the heckwould you want to do that?
It kind of baffles them.
So I've always been a healtheducator my entire career.
And I've been a health educatorside by side with being a
(02:49):
clinician.
I was a drug and alcoholcounselor for quite a while.
Then I was a marriage and familytherapist after that, you know,
doing individual therapy, all ofthese things.
But I always love to teach and Ialways love looking at health as
a holistic thing.
right?
Not one narrow aspect ofourselves, not mental health
(03:09):
separate from physical health.
Sexual health is not separatefrom mental health.
It's not separate from physicalhealth.
It's also just not separate fromour lives.
So we often think of it as ahealth issue when really it's
just part of who we are.
It's part of our identities.
So that's the sort of standardanswer.
But the more personal answer isthat I went through about 10
years of infertility treatment.
(03:31):
And I know you've talked aboutthat some on your podcast as
well.
And You know, I knew from wayback that I always wanted to get
a doctoral degree at some point,but I didn't want to get it just
for the purpose of a career.
I wanted to get it because Iwanted to study something
deeply, and I didn't want to getthe degree before I knew exactly
what that was.
If you're going to spend yearson something and basically write
(03:54):
a book on it, you know, you wantit to be something you love and
that you're passionate about, orat least I do.
So going through that, Irealized that sex was this big
area of life that even though Ihad always been pretty open
about it, I'd always been prettysex positive.
I never really delved into theparts of myself that needed
(04:15):
healing in that way.
And I never really delved deeplyinto that until I was in my late
30s, early 40s.
And having done that, I realizedthat this was really, I think, a
lost part of a lot of ourhealing.
We go and we do yoga and weexercise and we run marathons or
(04:36):
we go back to school.
We become mothers or whateverwe're going to do with our
personal lives, our relationallives.
But we also forget that this isa piece of us and we put it away
in this corner in the bedroomand say, this is where this
belongs.
And in fact, it doesn't.
And so I find many, many peopleand women also in particular,
(05:01):
who they've done all this workon themselves in every area, but
this is the one area that theyforget about.
And they forget that it isattached to every other area of
our lives and every other areaof our healing because it's
attached to our body.
And if we're ashamed or havebeen shamed, even if we don't
(05:21):
think we are ashamed, we've allbeen shamed about our bodies or
about sexuality, then we arealso by definition and by proxy
shaming our whole bodies.
So shaming sex means shaming thewhole body.
Shaming the whole body bumpsinto women's issues.
Women's bodies have not beenshamed.
valued except for sexualobjects.
(05:43):
There's just so manyintersections with this.
When I went into the wholepersonal journey that I did, I
realized, wow, I want to studythis really deeply.
I want to get a doctoral degree.
When I got into my doctoralprogram, I recognized that There
was a set of people who studysex for academic reasons, and I
(06:04):
always call them the plumbers.
Like, if you can find theclitoris, everything's fine.
You know, if you know how todeal with premature ejaculation,
everything is fine, right?
And they're very mechanical.
And part of the reason for thatis because they were reacting
against people who wereindoctrinated into thinking that
sex was a moral issue.
(06:25):
So they kind of went theopposite and were like, it's all
mechanical and there's noproblems that can't be solved
that way.
And then there were people onthe other end of things that
were doing all kinds of amazingwork with personal growth, but
they didn't know a lot of thefacts about human sexuality.
And so after I finished mydoctoral program, I wanted to
bring those two things together.
I wanted to bring together thepeople who were interested in
(06:47):
personal and spiritual andmental growth and intellectual
growth.
together with the people whowere interested in the academics
of it and had really, reallygood information about human
sexuality from a scientificstandpoint.
So that is a very long answer toyour question, but it is how it
happened.
(07:07):
And so I opened Institute forSexuality Education and
Enlightenment in 2011 to bringthose pieces together.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And you have, from what I've seen on your website,
a broad base of different typesof courses that people can take.
I stumbled across it because itwas the only class that I found
on pregnancy and sexuality.
I just felt like scouring theinternet and there's such a
small amount of information outthere.
So yeah, when I took thatcourse, it was like really
(07:37):
appreciative that it was evenout there because that's
something that I'm reallyinterested in working with
people, whether it's about sexduring pregnancy or birth
traumas that impact your sexualrelationship or infertility that
impacts your sexual relationshipor your relationship with your
body.
Because you're like, why isn'tmy body not working?
Or all the things that peoplethink about when they think
(07:58):
about sex and becoming a motherand that journey.
SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Absolutely.
And it's sad, right?
It's a sad commentary that youcould only find one class on it.
But it's also, is it reallysurprising?
Because we have that Madonnawhore complex still in our
society that as soon as youbecome a mom, you're no longer a
sexual being, which isridiculous.
I mean, we become mothersbecause of sexuality, but right.
(08:24):
So yeah, I can understand that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Yeah.
So I guess I'm curious, youwrote this book called The Deep
Yes, The Lost Art of TrueReceiving.
I'd love to hear more about thatand what drove you to write that
book.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Thank you.
Yeah.
So the deep yes, it kind of cameout of my practice and my study
of tantra, which is an Indianpractice.
It's a spiritual practice,really.
And it's a sister science toAyurveda and it's a sister
science to yoga, but not a lotof people know about it.
And in the West, it's treated asan entirely sexual phenomenon
(09:01):
that, you know, it's all aboutsex and it's not.
Tantra is no more about sex thanyoga is, but you can apply it
towards sexuality.
And so I was studying that, andwhat I was realizing is that the
discussion of yin and yang,which is often seen as feminine
and masculine, I realized thatpart of the reason why this
(09:22):
culture absolutely worshipsmasculine energy, right?
And hyper-masculine energy.
not just healthy masculineenergy, which is all about doing
and initiating, buthyper-masculine, right?
Because we're a capitalisticsociety, we have to produce.
Everything has to be produced,produced, produced, produced,
(09:43):
produced, which means we have todo, do, do, do, do.
We're not allowed to just sitand be.
We can't just sit and rest.
But The feminine energy, or whatis considered feminine
traditionally, we can arguethat.
I have no problem with saying,look, let's just call it yin
energy.
It's not necessarily feminine.
It's not necessarily associatedwith women.
But that energy is the energy oftaking in.
(10:05):
It's the energy of receivingsomething.
And if you think about how tabooit is for people, and
particularly women, to say, Oh,thank you for that compliment.
You're right, I do lookbeautiful today.
Or thank you for this lovelygift instead of you shouldn't
have, right?
Or let me enjoy this amazing,delicious food instead of the
(10:29):
guilt because this food is toorich and I'm gonna gain weight
or it's too sugary or what haveyou, right?
So these are all ways that ourculture blocks receiving in
general and it worships the ideaof giving, right?
but is impossible to givewithout receiving.
You're receiving either way,right?
And to cut off and create adichotomy there when really it's
(10:52):
a continuum is really unhealthy.
So what happens is it thenbecomes unhealthy for us to
accept help.
It becomes unhealthy for us tocreate community.
All of the things that go alongwith not being able to receive.
So what I did was I wrote a bookabout embodied receiving how to
receive through the body acompliment, touch, your food,
(11:18):
sleep, all of these things thatare essential for our well-being
and not just our health.
And sex, of course, is onechapter.
But even how to receive beauty,how to really take in beauty
from our environment, how toreceive nature, these are not
things that we know how to dovery well anymore.
(11:39):
And some people are great at it,but most of us We have to remind
ourselves to do it.
So this book is ways to practicereceiving.
And they're very concrete, butit's not that abstract.
I mean, there are abstract partsof it, but it's also like, how
do you enjoy your food?
How do you enjoy your sleep andnot feel guilty for doing
something that is good for youto begin with, right?
(12:01):
So-
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
Yeah, it's so interesting, the idea that we've
created a culture in which evenjust the idea of simply enjoying
nature is so far removed fromwhat we do every day.
It's like nature's around us allthe time, but we're like, oh, we
need to get to work or, oh, weneed to go to the bank or, oh,
we need to do, again, do, do,do, do, rather than like, oh,
(12:24):
wow, look, the leaves arechanging.
And maybe people are enjoyingnature for the purpose of taking
a picture and posting it onsocial media, but maybe not
actually sitting and embracingits beauty.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Exactly.
And even when people are...
Let me go take a run in thewilderness.
A lot of times there's, okay,now I've got my...
My watch, my Apple watch, it'stelling me how many steps I've
taken or did I make good time.
So we can't even enjoy that.
There's got to be some goalattached or we feel guilty for
(12:59):
just walking around.
And I'm lucky I come from afamily where enjoyment of nature
is basically, I would say, astrong value in the family.
So if you're in the middle of aconversation, but some gorgeous
bird flies by, you areabsolutely expected to say, hey,
wait a minute, look at thatbird.
(13:21):
Let's interrupt what we're doingand stop and look at that bird
or that sunset or that mountainor whatever it is you're seeing.
And I think that's part of beingpresent is taking in these
things.
But it's also part of beingwell.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Yeah, it almost sounds like this idea of taking
mindfulness a step further, notjust noticing, but also
appreciating and allowingyourself to experience that
appreciation and allowingyourself to experience that
moment.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, and it's even more active than that, you know,
Stephanie, because if you canimagine yourself energetically
taking it in, right?
So there's the noticing moment.
which I think is one kind ofenergy.
That's almost yang energy whereyou're just sort of, you're
curious and you're going out ofyourself and noticing.
(14:09):
But if you're seeing this thing,then there's the yang and
there's the noticing, but thenyou're actually going, wow,
isn't that incredible?
And allowing all the feelingsand feeling it in your body.
Look at that bird.
Look at that sunset.
Look at that person.
Look at that gorgeous person.
Whatever it is that you're doingor Let me taste this apple.
(14:30):
Let me really taste it.
There's an energetic taking inthat goes beyond this idea of
mindfulness.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Interesting.
I think a lot of people wouldprobably really get a lot out of
this book as a reminder thatlife is more about doing, doing,
doing.
So I think even though we'vemaybe rephrased like hustle
culture and work hard, play hardover the past several years, I
think there's still thistendency to be in this doing
(14:58):
mindset.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Yeah.
And of course, that goes intothe sexual arena as well.
Because I know you wanted me totalk about that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
So where does sex come into allof us?
I know you wrote a chapterspecifically about that.
So yeah, how does one receive inthat space?
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Yeah.
So this starts with thequestion, do we allow ourselves
to feel pleasure?
Can we truly take in pleasure?
And many people cannot.
They literally cannot.
They feel guilty or they feelashamed or they feel that they
should be doing something moreworthwhile.
And so as a sex educator, youknow, as a therapist, of course,
(15:43):
I did it in session.
But now I get to do this in amuch larger scale because I'm
teaching groups of people and Iteach people who teach other
people.
So there's a ripple.
But if we talk about how do werelate to pleasure?
and our own pleasure?
And how do we begin to own it,begin to cherish it, begin to
(16:05):
honor it for the thing, theworthy thing that it is, one of
the things that makes lifeworthwhile?
And that's a really importantquestion that a lot of people
have never asked themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess it goes back to maybepeople when talking about sex
feel safer talking about it inthis more mechanical way rather
than this way of going back topleasure and desire and the
foundation of, I'm going to bebold and say what sex is about.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Yeah.
And I think it's really aboutboth.
I mean, that's why Institute forSex Education and Enlightenment,
the idea of those two wordstogether really meant to be Yes,
of course we need these piecesabout mechanics, right?
We do, because if you don't knowwhere your clitoris is or your
partner doesn't, you're probablynot gonna be having as much
pleasure.
(16:54):
Likely, doesn't mean absolutelynot, but likely you're not gonna
be having anywhere near as muchpleasure as if you know the
mechanics of that, right?
Or if you think you should befeeling pleasure in one part of
your body and you don't realizethat, hey, guess what?
Any part of your body can bepleasurable.
If it's your right shoulder,that's okay, you know?
These are things that we need toknow and there's mechanics
(17:14):
involved.
But yeah, I think the deeperquestions about how we allow
ourselves to receive thesethings is also equally
important.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
So what do you think is the biggest thing
misunderstood about women andsex and women and pleasure and
desire?
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
Where to start?
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Big question.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yeah, big.
And in some ways, I hate to givethe obvious answers, but they
really are the obvious answers,which is women are taught that
we don't want to have sex.
And some don't.
And that's fine.
But the truth is that women canbe highly sexual.
They can be as sexual as anyother gender out there, right?
Or they might not be.
(17:55):
And it's very much on acontinuum, just like with
anyone.
The other thing I think that weget caught in is youth culture.
So we define...
our sexuality by what it waswhen we were younger or what we
think we should be by youngpeople.
We have that young rubric andthat comes from, unfortunately,
from research because researchis done largely on college
(18:16):
students because they are anavailable population of people
and it's hard to survey largerpopulations.
Luckily, in the last 20 yearswith the internet, that has
changed because now we haveaccess to large bodies of people
that we can research where wedidn't used to be able to do
that before.
It would have beenextraordinarily expensive.
Now it is cheap, cheap, cheap,cheap, cheap to do that, right?
(18:40):
So yeah, so there's the, wedon't want it or we're not
supposed to want it.
And both of those are problems.
But the other one is thatsomehow sex is this one thing,
right?
It's intercourse.
Maybe it's intercourse,heterosexual intercourse.
That orgasm is one thing, thatit should feel like one thing,
(19:02):
as opposed to there being many,many different kinds of orgasm
that any one particular personcan feel, right?
And I do think that women'sroles really get in the way.
I think that this piece aboutwhen you become a mother, you're
supposed to be more proper.
When you become a grandma,you're supposed to be more
proper, right?
Well, what about women who neverbecome mothers?
(19:24):
I'm one of those.
Does that mean I'm endlesslysexual?
Does it mean I'm not sexualbecause I was not a mom?
What does that even mean in ourculture?
What about mothers who want tobe sexual?
They want to continue their sexlives.
What about how sex changes whenpeople become mothers or
grandmothers or hit menopause orhave a breast cancer surgery and
(19:48):
recover from that?
What happens then?
So yeah, I think there are allkinds of questions that we have.
But I think shedding...
societal norms is a really bigask because women are also
socialized to be morecooperative and to go with the
flow and try and help everybodyget along.
(20:10):
And as such, we then tend towant to go along with the flow
more ourselves.
And so it's very hard for us tobuck these ideas without feeling
somehow guilty or somehow like afreak or an outsider.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
That's interesting.
I think I've seen a lot ofpeople feeling like they want to
speak up or they want to dosomething different, but then
feel like they need to be quietin order to get along.
That seems like a very commondynamic that I see with a lot of
my clients that I work with.
And so trying to figure outwhat's the balance of like,
(20:45):
maybe not pushing yourself tothe point where you feel like an
outsider and no one wants to bein relation with you, but also
trying still advocating foryourself.
And I think that's a, yeah, atightrope that a lot of women
find themselves in, whether it'sin sexual relationships or just
in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Yeah.
And I think this is why some ofthe shows that we love the most,
right?
It's really, really popularshows.
I go back a ways and I thinkabout the Golden Girls.
and how people love this show.
And they love Betty Whitebecause she was so, quote,
outrageous, right?
Because she was bucking thosenorms and they were bucking
those norms.
And now we have Grace andFrankie, which is an extremely
(21:26):
popular show about two olderwomen.
And they're continuing to talkabout sex and orgasms and
vibrators and all these things.
And they're starting their ownvibrator business and their own
lube business and all thesethings, right?
And so I think part of thereason we like these shows is
because we see...
hey, here's someone who's doingthis.
(21:47):
And it's unfortunate, but somepeople have to enjoy that
vicariously.
They can't own it forthemselves.
So it's both a great way tomodel something and also a
little bit telling as far aswhat we're attracted to, but
maybe feel like we can't quiteget to ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (22:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I'm even thinking of Sex and the City, right?
Everybody loved that show andloved living through those
women.
But I'm curious how much thatwas put into practice.
If there was any study thatfollowed, okay, people who
watched the show maybe felt moreempowered to speak about sex or
to be more sexual and show up inthat way in the relationships
(22:30):
differently.
But yeah, I think that would bean interesting research study to
see.
I wanted to...
transition a little bit to talkabout like, where do you think
sex education and speaking aboutsex in culture and in society is
headed?
And are we hopefully creating aculture and a movement where sex
(22:54):
is more positive and women feelmore empowered in their bodies?
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question right
now in 2024, in December of2024, right after an election,
right?
That is the million dollarquestion.
I don't know.
And the reason I don't know isbecause I'm not really sure
where we're going.
I can see disaster could strike.
(23:20):
I can see many ways in which italready has.
Some of the rights that havebeen taken away from women in
certain areas of this country,even when there's absolutely an
unambiguous scenario around itwhere perhaps there's absolutely
no way that A child's life couldbe saved, for instance.
(23:43):
That is still not okay to savethe mother, right?
I mean, some of these things arejust really frightening.
Having said that, I would saythat we're both in great danger
right now of losing many of therights that we have fought for
so hard.
And also, we have never seen...
(24:03):
a world with an internet beforewhen these things have happened
in our country, in this country,maybe other countries have.
But in this country, we haven'tseen this kind of revolution
where we still have a digitalconnection to other people and
other women in particular.
I don't know if it's a lotharder to lose your rights as a
(24:26):
woman, whether it be tohealthcare or whether it be to
voting.
in a culture where we can stilltalk to each other, or if in
fact it might be even easier forsomeone to take away those
rights because all they have todo is control the digital world,
which unfortunately there are atleast a couple of individuals
(24:49):
who probably are very close tobeing able to do that right now.
How many satellites has ElonMusk sent up?
I mean, many, many hundreds atthis point.
He has more satellites in orbitthan anyone else.
What does that mean?
Does that mean he could cut offdigital communication at some
point?
Does that mean he could controlwho gets to talk to who and
(25:09):
about what?
I don't know.
I know that sounds paranoid, butthe truth is I don't know.
So I'm not sure if it's actuallyeasier for women to lose their
rights now or not as easy.
And I am concerned that womenare going to lose rights.
I'm concerned that People ofcolor and BIPOC people are going
to lose their rights.
I'm concerned that, you know,LGBTQ people are going to lose
(25:33):
their rights.
I think it could very easilyhappen.
And women are always sort of thefirst place where that goes, you
know, or one of the first placeswhere that goes.
Let's take away women's rights.
And that is already happening.
So I don't know.
Sex education is not just aboutsex.
It's about the empowerment ofthe individual to say, this is
(25:54):
my body.
I may do whatever I want with itas long as I'm an adult and I'm
consenting with another adult.
So I wish I knew the answer tothat question.
SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
Which is why I think it's important to keep having
these conversations andeducating people and continuing
to try to do our best to connectin these ways.
Yeah, because who knows whatcould happen?
And again, not to be paranoid,but anything could happen.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (26:21):
think it's
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
important to do what we can every day to...
continue moving this needleforward rather than backwards.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
Yeah.
And I like to remind myself thatanything can happen and anything
can happen.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
That's true.
Well, where can people find youif they want to connect with
you, read your book or followyour educational classes that
you provide?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
thank you.
So the book is The Deep Yes, TheLost Art of True Receiving, and
it's on Amazon.
You can get Kindle version oryou can get paperback.
I do want to make an audio book,but I haven't gotten around to
it.
Maybe I can get some of youradvice about where to start,
Stephanie.
And the other one isinstituteforsexuality.com.
So Institute for Sex Educationand Enlightenment, which is
largely for professionaldevelopment, but which
(27:12):
absolutely any adult human couldwatch are classes and get a lot
out of them.
And I would recommend that ifit's not our program, at least
try and find a credible,somewhere credible to get your
information because there's alot of sex education out there
on the web right now.
And it's a lot of it is badinformation.
(27:32):
So even if you don't go to ourwebsite, which is
instituteforsexuality.com,please find a credible place for
your, for your education.
SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Well, we're going to be sharing all that information
in our show notes and any linksthat Dr.
Roslyn would like to share withyou.
And thank you so much for beingon today.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
Absolutely.
Thank you for asking me.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Thank you all for listening.
I hope you found someinspiration, validation, had
some questions answered, or justenjoyed listening to this week's
episode.
I encourage you to check out ourwebsite,
wellmindedcounseling.combackslash redefininguspod for
any resources that werementioned in today's episode.
(28:17):
Check out my new program on ourwebsite as well for first-time
moms, where you can join otherwomen entering into motherhood.
The program offers three phases.
Phase one, exploring where youare on your journey towards
motherhood and connecting withthis new identity.
Phase two, preparing your mind,body, and spirit for giving
birth.
And phase three, reconnecting toyourself while caring for your
(28:39):
baby.
I truly appreciate if you leavea review and rating so other
women can find us as well.
Thank you all for listeningagain and keep on connecting
with yourself and with others inthe community and redefining us.
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