March 13, 2025 • 34 mins
Grief and motherhood are closely related. One mother may grieve the relationship she had with her partner before kids, another may be grieving a miscarriage, another the loss of her identity before kids. Motherhood is a profound transformation, yet we rarely honor the grief, and healing that come with it.
Our guest Kellee Meyers shares about a ceremony for mother's that she did after her C-section births that helped her grieve and heal. The Closing the Bones ceremony is a four-hour, deeply nourishing ritual that can help any of you mother's out there process birth experiences, losses, and personal evolutions. (It doesn't matter if you had your kid 15 years ago or 3 months ago).
We talk about why so many mothers feel unseen in their struggles and how ritual can provide the witnessing and support they desperately need.
Kellee describes the power of being held both physically and emotionally, by a trusted group of women, the importance of acknowledging grief, and why receiving care is essential, not selfish. Whether you’re newly postpartum or years into your journey, this episode may be a helpful reminder that your experiences deserve to be honored. It just might change the way you think about healing in motherhood.
Connect w/ Kellee:
Website: wildtransformations.com
IG and FB: @wildtransformations.
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I wrote a book! Becoming Mommy: Aligning with yourself and finding your voice during pregnancy and motherhood, available at all major retailers - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DZT9P3RB?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&bestFormat=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
That early postpartum period, anyone who's
been through it knows how taxingit is, even in the most
equitable relationship, thatthere are things only the mother
can provide.
So many women claim it withpride, and they want to give to
this new beautiful being thatthey created.
And it's a lot.
(00:20):
It's exhausting in every wayimaginable.
And I don't know about you, butI've never left a baby shower
feeling nourished.
I maybe felt celebrated.
I maybe felt people wereexcited, but I was doing the
dishes afterwards and it wasn'tnourishing.
So when you think closing thebones, four hours of nourishment
(00:41):
in your home, you can think ofwhatever rituals are meaningful
for you.
I'm willing to bring in whateverpractices are meaningful for
women to really feel nourished.
So that first hour is having teaor coffee and sharing whatever
the woman wants to share aboutwhat's been hard and also So
it's also room to celebrate ofwhat are they proud of, what's
(01:04):
going well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrahera, LicensedProfessional Counselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
how we balance everything, howwe grow, how we be more
(01:26):
authentically us and figuringout who we are through the
transitions of life, whetherthat be motherhood, success,
relationships, and all thingsthat have happened in women's
lives, because it's definitelynot a linear journey.
And I think by talking about itand normalizing it and
validating, we can all risetogether and be the women that
(01:48):
we were meant to be.
So keep tuning in.
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, Stephanie ContraO'Hara.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor.
And today I have with me KellyMyers, who is also a licensed
(02:11):
professional counselor.
Kelly is passionate aboutmotherhood and nourishing
mothers, the power ofspirituality and ceremony to
process grief around motherhoodand spiritual trauma and
post-traumatic growth.
She loves anything related tothe mountains, cats, and coffee.
So thank you very much forjoining us today, Kelly.
Thank you so much, Stephanie.
It's an honor.
Well, I appreciate that.
(02:33):
So I...
Just want to kick off by talkingabout, yeah, what brought you to
this place that you feel likeyou want to talk to people about
the Closing the Bones ceremonyand what brought you to ceremony
because that's the theme oftoday's podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just so honored to be hereand appreciate all these taboo
topics that you talk about thatare so real and alive for all of
us as mothers and in thefertility journey and grief
being one of them that we don'tlove to talk about, but I'm here
to hopefully make it easier forpeople.
Because we all have it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Yeah.
For sure.
Whether it's around...
I mean, you can grieve so manythings, I think.
The life you had beforemotherhood, the ideas that you
had about motherhood, like therelationship that you had with
your partner, and now you have adifferent relationship with your
partner in motherhood.
So...
Yes, yes, yes.
I imagine a lot of that has todo with the shedding of
(03:29):
expectations and your journeyand all of the things, but...
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Yeah.
And how I came to ceremony, I ama mother of two.
I have a three-year-old and aone-year-old.
And I remember as I was pregnantwith my first talking to a
friend of mine who actually aclinical supervisor I had at the
time who was a mother, and shesaid it was the most
life-changing thing she had everbeen through.
And at the time, I couldn'treally grasp that because it was
(03:56):
like, well, I'm still going tobe me.
What's going to change?
It's one of those things thatYou can have this idea, but
until you're in it, then it getsreally real.
And how I came to ceremony, Ithink I'm someone who's always
gravitated towards ceremony.
I'm someone who...
Yeah.
(04:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
For sure.
And I think we always try to putwords to something to maybe
explain ourselves or explain ourexperience.
But I love what you just said,that idea that some things can't
be put into words because Ioftentimes feel like that when
I'm trying to express myself tomy therapist or my husband or a
friend.
(05:03):
I don't even know how todescribe what I'm feeling or
what this experience is for me.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Exactly.
And that's something I soappreciate about you naming to
myself and your other listenersis that transition into
motherhood is so expansive.
It's beyond words, right?
And chalk therapy is wonderfuland it has its limits of what it
can offer.
And I just feel so lucky.
(05:29):
I kind of feel like the ceremonycame to me, not the other way
around is how I view it.
But to share a little bit moreabout how I learned about
Closing of the Bones and I'llsay what that is because I know
it's a really provocative namethat people are wondering, what
the heck is that?
So I had a pretty easy-ish, aseasy as birth can be with my
(05:53):
first, though I did have aC-section.
But I felt pretty goodphysically four weeks after, but
my second birth, whole differentballgame.
I had a another unplannedC-section.
And for me, it was reallyimportant to have a vaginal
birth after C-section, but thatwasn't in the cards.
(06:13):
So that was my big grief that Ihad and have had that I was
introduced to the ceremony.
So I want to give a shout out toa wonderful organization in
Boulder.
They're called Sanctuary Doulas,and they are not only a birth
center, they had a breastfeedingcircle that I was going to
because my first, what wastraumatic with him is he
(06:36):
developed allergies and eczemafour months into his life.
And that's something we continueto battle.
And so I was going to thisbreastfeeding circle and they
also had a postpartum supportgroup.
I was going to that and one ofthe counselors there told me
about the ceremony and my earsperked up.
(06:57):
I'm someone who believes in thepower of ceremony.
And so that's where I was firstintroduced to it, was engaging
with my own support in a reallydifficult time in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, that sounds like a great place.
It really sounds like it has alot of options for people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
yeah.
I guess what do you think foryou was...
the point where you're like, Ineed to do this.
Like you said that it's calledto you, but if you can put into
words, maybe it's not evenwords, but what was the point
where you're like, I need tocommit to doing this for myself?
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yeah, I think it was the facilitator at the time
saying she was completing hermaster's and she was writing a
dissertation on using ceremonyfor maternal mental health and
helping moms grieve.
And when I heard hearing momsgrieve, I was like, every part
of my body was like, yes,because I was grieving my
(08:00):
physical recovery.
The short story is I had mybladder nicked.
I had a stitch put over myureter.
I had even considered, I'm not alitigious person, but I
considered taking legal action.
I think whenever we go throughpain in life, there's nothing
more healing than having ourpain be heard and taking action
(08:21):
over pieces that we did not havechoice or control over.
And so the closing of the bondsreally is that.
It's a way to honor our griefand our celebration.
Like sometimes I find myselfeven I feel like I'm being too
doomsday about motherhood orsomething.
And I have to remind myselfwe're allowed to have our
(08:43):
gratitude and our celebrationtoo.
And I love being a mother.
And this last year having oursecond has rocked me in a way
that I never anticipated.
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Yeah, I think it's interesting the messages that I
think are often given to womenabout, you know, just be
grateful you're alive, just begrateful your baby's healthy.
And it's like, okay, I can bethose things, but I can also be
sad and I can also grieve what Iwanted and what ended up
happening.
SPEAKER_02 (09:13):
Maybe
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
even anger mixed in there too.
Absolutely.
Feeling robbed of an experienceand feeling anger about being in
pain.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Yeah, I think we all know what grief is, right?
We have this understanding, butto listeners who might be
thinking, well, I don't knowthat I have grief.
If you have anger, if you havesadness, those are grief.
Anger around, yeah, how you justbeautifully put it, of getting
something you didn't intend toget or vice versa.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Yeah, I was hoping you could maybe explain to the
listener a little bit about whatgrief the ceremony is like or
the process so they can have afurther understanding of what
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
it looks like.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
I would love to.
So basically, it's a four-hourceremony in your own home.
I am open to facilitating it forpeople in a place other than
their home.
If they don't want to do itthere, you could do an Airbnb or
a friend's house.
And it's a way for the mother tobe nourished.
I think we have in our culture asevere lack of ceremony to
(10:20):
nourish the mother in that Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:02):
curing your pain and reflectingyour strengths.
And so it's an opportunity totell your story of who you are
now, how pregnancy was, sharingall those big pieces.
Because in our culture, when Ithink of ceremony, we have
weddings to honor thattransition.
We have funerals and othercultures have other ones around
(11:26):
turning 15.
But how do we not have one?
For the most expansive change aperson's body and being and a
role can undergo.
And so that's where this comesin.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
Yeah.
I've been talking to a lot ofwomen about what being a woman
is about and motherhood and thewords like receiving and
creating really have come backto me over and over again in
conversations.
And it really sounds like thisis an opportunity for a mother
to change.
Absolutely.
(12:02):
And kind of honor the creatingof this new life and new
experience.
And yeah, I don't know.
Hearing you talk about it mademe think of those two words that
I kind of keep hearing over andover again about what feminine
energy is all about.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Yes, this is all about the divine feminine, the
healthy feminine, and thehealthy masculine too, but heavy
on that.
the mother receiving mothering,hence the title of the episode,
of that early postpartum periodespecially.
Anyone who's been through itknows how taxing it is, even in
(12:38):
the most equitable relationship,that there are things only the
mother can provide.
And so it is what it is, andmany women claim it with pride,
and they want to give to thisnew beautiful being that they
created.
And it's a lot.
It's exhausting in every wayimaginable.
(13:01):
And I don't know about you, butI've never left a baby shower
feeling nourished.
I maybe felt celebrated.
I maybe felt people wereexcited, but I was doing the
dishes afterwards and I wasn'tnourishing.
All I wanted when I was pregnantwith my second was to be in my
(13:23):
living room with some of myclosest friends and do a tarot
reading.
And that's what we did.
So when you think closing thebones, four hours of nourishment
in your home, you can think ofthat.
Whatever rituals are meaningfulfor you.
I identify as interfaith.
I have a Christian background.
I also have attended lots of newthought metaphysical communities
(13:45):
like Unity, and I'm willing tobring in whatever practices
Yeah.
I imagine some
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Prep would go into this too.
So this woman's not justentering into this space.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Exactly.
Not sure how to do this.
Exactly.
Yes.
And I feel strongly about that.
I know other people in thisspace doing Closing of the Bones
without that preparation and nojudgment to them, but I feel
passionate about offering thatpreparation.
So I facilitate threepreparatory sessions for anyone
who's interested in doing this.
(14:46):
For us, you can think of it,it's not therapy, but bringing
in all my therapy skills ofhelping a woman tell her story
of what is she most proud of andwhat's been the hardest.
So for me, it was powerful totalk about having two unplanned
C-sections and all the thingsthat went wrong, needing
(15:06):
multiple surgeries in thosefirst three months.
And then also to talk about, Ihad a two-year-old at the time,
talk about what it was like tohave my own activated needing to
bring an EpiPen everywhere andbe really focusing on, is my
child okay?
Which brought up some stuff Iwon't go into, but touched on
dynamics from my childhood.
(15:27):
And so- the first hours justtalking about whatever you want
to share.
And then us building in thoserituals that we would have
already talked about in thosethree preparatory sessions to
ultimately help a woman let goof a painful story that is hard
to let go of, which we know astherapists, right?
(15:49):
The kind of trauma looping of astory that's trying to work
itself out.
And sometimes the When it's notworking itself out, it's because
it hasn't been witnessed enough.
And so this is helpful for that,for a group of people to really
hear the pain points to helpthat story shift back towards
(16:10):
empowerment, back towards awoman's ultimate power.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Yeah.
The word witnessing made me havea tangent thought about Going
back to that group therapy thingthat you were talking about,
like the power of having otherpeople hear you or see you, like
really see you.
Not just like, oh, I see you'resitting in the room, but see you
(16:36):
in a meaningful and deep way andthat in itself being a part of
the healing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Absolutely.
Yes.
And seeing in ways that, again,don't always involve words.
Yeah.
When I think ritual, I thinkthose tools that we have that
help us move emotion and be withemotion is music.
Music is so powerful.
So that's built in of a song ofa person's choosing.
(17:06):
I have a whole motherhoodplaylist, actually.
If people need ideas, that wasshared with me when I went
through this process, and it'sstill a playlist I listen to all
the time.
So And then I really want totalk about the somatic part of
the intervention.
So why it's called Closing theBones took me a while to get
there, but thanks for hanging onthere, listeners.
(17:29):
So the idea is, or the realityis, our bones are actually open
when giving birth.
And I met with a physicaltherapist recently who told me
even though I had C-sections,the bones still had to open some
because of the laboring process.
And So I do actually know ofsome physical therapists who, if
(17:52):
anyone's needing pelvic floortherapy afterward to help with
that actual physical closing,where my skill set comes in is
the emotional closing of namingwhen you're in a new season or
era of motherhood.
So I'd love to talk about whenthis can be powerful.
But the somatic component islike 20 minutes where...
(18:17):
I bring seven cloths, thesebeautiful, colorful cloths that
you get swaddled.
And so we swaddle our babies.
Why don't we nourish and swaddleour mamas?
And it's just a relaxingexperience.
There can be light music in thebackground and you're adorned
(18:37):
with flowers.
You're lying on the ground, justrelaxing.
soaking in having just sharedyour story, soaking in the
support.
That's what was most powerfulfor me was just feeling these
women sit around me and bethinking of me and holding me in
(18:58):
love.
So powerful.
Yeah.
And
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking of this ideathat you just mentioned, like
women holding you in love andAnd I don't know, it almost
brought a little bit of like atear to my eye by thinking about
that and how, yeah, I'm gettingemotional, how important I think
it is for everyone to feel that,but especially after something
(19:23):
where you're literally givingevery ounce of love that you can
to a baby.
It's so
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
important,
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
I think, to know that it's possible or that other
women are also wanting to givethat back to you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, and I am touched by yourtears, and there's never a dry
eye in the house when we dothis, and it's powerful.
It's powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah, it sounds like a beautiful experience for
everybody involved.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
It is, yeah, and because it brings stuff up and
out, and there's often a reliefat the end of that.
I know you practice EMDR.
I do, too.
And for listeners who have donethat, it's like when there's a
powerful EMDR session, it feelslike that.
It's like, Right.
Like I let go of something.
(20:16):
I don't even know what, but Ilet go of something and thank
God.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
Yeah.
Collective breath, everyone liketogether now.
SPEAKER_00 (20:24):
Yeah.
And so we often do that intenseexperience in the middle.
And then that last hour is justeating a meal together and that
debriefing, the coming down.
I always remember.
prep women, you're going to beexhausted, just like an EMDR
session.
So hopefully you can have a napafterwards.
(20:45):
And then about a month later iswhen I find it to be most useful
is doing a follow-up one-hourintegration session to talk
about the impact of what ithelped a mother release, what it
reminded her of, all the yummypositive impacts.
And then if stuff has left to betended to, which there often is,
(21:09):
if the woman isn't alreadyfeeling supported enough, what
is enough support?
We always need more village.
I have a big network.
I'm happy to, you know, shareand get that person connected.
If I don't have any therapyopenings to groups, like you're
a wonderful group.
SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
thank you.
Yeah.
I think it's, I don't knowwhat's coming up for me here as
you're explaining even like thefollow up that like, even though
this maybe it hasn't been, quoteunquote, researched or like
science.
And like all of the things thatyou're explaining and talking
about in other modalities oftherapeutic experiences have
(21:51):
been in
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
the Semitic
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
ones.
Yes, the somatic ones and evenjust like the power of community
has been, you know, reallytalked about as something that's
like evidence-based and healing.
And I'm even thinking about whatwas it that you said?
Oh my goodness, my brainblanked.
It'll come back.
Yeah, it'll come back.
But I think it's just sounds,yeah, in so many ways, even
(22:15):
though there's maybe hasn't beena research paper written on this
experience that it would trulyhelp people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Yes.
Thank you for naming that.
We are forever changed.
And the impacts that can beexperienced through community,
through ceremony can be at anylevel, every level of mind,
body, spirit.
So I performed one for someonewho was experiencing part of her
journey in pregnancy andpostpartum was blood pressure
(23:12):
all over the place.
And when we did our integrationsession, she said, I have so
much that's stressful that'sgoing on in my life that I
should feel hijacked, but Idon't.
I just feel energized and myblood pressures are going down.
Can we imply causation?
I don't know, but how curious,right?
(23:36):
And that whole, the body keepsthe score.
And so building in the somaticcomponent, Yeah.
Yeah.
(24:04):
What was one thing that waspowerful in mine of helping
letting go of a painful storywas letter writing.
I had my doula and my spouse wasthere for part of the time, not
all of the time.
He wrote a letter justwitnessing all the strength and
power that they witnessed in mylaboring, even though it wasn't
(24:25):
the outcome I wanted.
And that's a letter I'll hold onto my entire life.
Another way it can look iswriting down pain points and
negative beliefs that you haveabout yourself.
You want to let go of, we canburn them in a circle, those
sorts of things.
And I get creative with myceremony clients.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
That's good.
Yeah.
I think the thought that cameback to me was, I imagine
there's potentially certainwomen listening to this being
like, I don't have time forthat.
Or what a privileged thing todo.
Yeah.
how selfish, whatever.
Maybe you're not saying that,but I could potentially hear
(25:05):
critics saying those things.
And I guess I'm sure you havethings to say in support of
this, but something that'scoming is someone hasn't even
done this ceremony, but justlistening to you speak about it
is if you're healing the mother,you're healing the family,
right?
Because the mother is working tobe attuned with the working to
(25:28):
be attuned with a baby, workingto be attuned with a community.
And if mom is out of attunementwith herself, how is she even
able to do any of the thingsthat is really asked of her in
this journey of motherhood?
And so, yeah, I guess that'swhat I would say to any
potential day sayers about thisjourney.
(25:49):
ceremony or really any care thatgoes back to the mother because,
yeah, I would argue that mothersare the foundation of society in
a lot of ways.
They
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
are.
They are.
Yes.
And they need nourishmentdesperately.
We need nourishment.
And I appreciate you namingthat.
It's something my own innercritic.
I'm constantly battling in myown head when I'm trying to get
my butt out of the house to godo that thing I want to do for
myself.
But I also want to be with myfamily and my toddlers crying.
(26:22):
That is real.
And what I would say to that,which I'm so passionate about,
and I think you are too, is whatyou just framed that When we
take care of ourselves asmothers and allow ourselves, I'm
talking four hours.
I'm not talking a week in theBahamas though.
(26:44):
I hope we all do that too.
It is like trying to giveyourself permission for this
gift, whatever it looks like andhowever you're nourished, be it
ceremony or otherwise.
Because when we're able to fitin self-care and being
nourished, We're better humans,better mothers, better spouses.
(27:07):
We're just more filled up and itdoesn't have to be for others
too.
I'm trying to fight thatnarrative.
It can be just for us, but Iknow it's something us women
struggle with.
It has to be like for others.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yes.
Yes.
And so whatever gets you in thedoor, whatever gets you in the
door to take care of you, right?
Like the adage around, you haveto put that oxygen mask on
yourself before you can put iton the person next to you.
Like, it really is important tocare for yourself in a variety
of ways.
And this is just one reallygreat ceremony and excellent way
(27:41):
to support yourself in yourcommunity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
And not shaming yourself when like that takes
years.
Sometimes we, I had a friend sayrecently putting band-aids on
it.
Like, yeah, sometimes we have toput band-aids on it, but when
there's even a little window ofa, of a weekend, it can be
powerful.
UNKNOWN (28:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Yeah.
So why do you think this isparticularly important for women
to hear now in today's world?
I
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
love the question.
I might need to think on that.
I mean, we're inundated.
We are inundated.
We are holding so much.
We give so much to others.
We need to have a balance ofreceiving in that process that
divine feminine receiving tocontinue the flow of give,
(28:36):
receive, give, receive to makeit through these wild times
we're in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that it's reallyvaluable to take care of
yourself, you know, not justnow, but in general in the
future, because the world's notbecoming any less complicated as
we move through it, right?
No.
More things calling ourattention, more barriers to
receive help or access childcareor what have you, like taking
(29:07):
care of you.
Yeah, I think it's fundamental.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Absolutely.
Yes.
When we're doing okay, then wecan show up and take action and
hold hope in a world where itcan be easy to despair.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I was hoping you mightbe able to share how people can
find you or potentially otherresources that you're really
loving right now that you wantto share with the listener.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
Yeah.
Lately, I am loving if you're alistener and also a business
owner.
I was introduced to RenegadeMotherhood.
as a networking opportunity,which is all about doing
business like a mom.
Obviously, I love this podcastor I wouldn't be on here.
Sanctuary Doulas in Boulder,Colorado, all kinds of wonderful
(29:59):
resources out there.
And I know of other groups aswell.
So I am also excited to beoffering a newsletter.
So I hope Listeners will checkme out if this resonates with
you, wildtransformations.com.
Wild Transformations with an Sat the end is my business.
(30:21):
And I'm also on Facebook andInstagram under Wild
Transformations.
And in the monthly newsletter, Ipromise not to inundate people's
inbox, but just once a month, Iwill be sharing little raw
snippets of my own life of beinga mother that'll make you laugh,
make you cry, eating chickennuggets off the floor, just all
(30:45):
the stuff.
And also sharing resources thatare out there to, to get through
this.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
And all that information isgoing to be in our show notes.
So if anyone wants to find it,feel free to go to the website
to find the show notes and alsobe in our newsletter that also
comes out.
So I hope that everyone reallyloved what you had to say.
I loved what you had to say.
So hopefully the audience agreeswith me, but thank you so much
for being on today, Kelly.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yes, thank you so much Stephanie.
It was great to chat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again
and share with other people soother people can continue to
listen to Redefining Us and wecan get into more listeners
ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
(31:41):
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to to bringingon guests and talking about
topics that are unique andinspiring to everyone.
So please let me know.
And this year, hopefully we'llbe full of a lot of community
building, a lot of publicspeaking, a lot of resource
(32:03):
sharing.
So I really encourage you tofollow us on social media at
well-minded counseling onInstagram as our handle, as well
as going directly to ourwebsite, wellmindcounseling.com
backslash redefining hyphen us.
So So you can be in the knowwith all the things that are
happening in the Redefining Uscommunity.
(32:25):
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
That early postpartum period, anyone who's
been through it knows how taxingit is, even in the most
equitable relationship, thatthere are things only the mother
can provide.
So many women claim it withpride, and they want to give to
this new beautiful being thatthey created.
And it's a lot.
(00:20):
It's exhausting in every wayimaginable.
And I don't know about you, butI've never left a baby shower
feeling nourished.
I maybe felt celebrated.
I maybe felt people wereexcited, but I was doing the
dishes afterwards and it wasn'tnourishing.
So when you think closing thebones, four hours of nourishment
(00:41):
in your home, you can think ofwhatever rituals are meaningful
for you.
I'm willing to bring in whateverpractices are meaningful for
women to really feel nourished.
So that first hour is having teaor coffee and sharing whatever
the woman wants to share aboutwhat's been hard and also So
it's also room to celebrate ofwhat are they proud of, what's
(01:04):
going well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrahera, LicensedProfessional Counselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
how we balance everything, howwe grow, how we be more
(01:26):
authentically us and figuringout who we are through the
transitions of life, whetherthat be motherhood, success,
relationships, and all thingsthat have happened in women's
lives, because it's definitelynot a linear journey.
And I think by talking about itand normalizing it and
validating, we can all risetogether and be the women that
(01:48):
we were meant to be.
So keep tuning in.
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, Stephanie ContraO'Hara.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor.
And today I have with me KellyMyers, who is also a licensed
(02:11):
professional counselor.
Kelly is passionate aboutmotherhood and nourishing
mothers, the power ofspirituality and ceremony to
process grief around motherhoodand spiritual trauma and
post-traumatic growth.
She loves anything related tothe mountains, cats, and coffee.
So thank you very much forjoining us today, Kelly.
Thank you so much, Stephanie.
It's an honor.
Well, I appreciate that.
(02:33):
So I...
Just want to kick off by talkingabout, yeah, what brought you to
this place that you feel likeyou want to talk to people about
the Closing the Bones ceremonyand what brought you to ceremony
because that's the theme oftoday's podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just so honored to be hereand appreciate all these taboo
topics that you talk about thatare so real and alive for all of
us as mothers and in thefertility journey and grief
being one of them that we don'tlove to talk about, but I'm here
to hopefully make it easier forpeople.
Because we all have it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Yeah.
For sure.
Whether it's around...
I mean, you can grieve so manythings, I think.
The life you had beforemotherhood, the ideas that you
had about motherhood, like therelationship that you had with
your partner, and now you have adifferent relationship with your
partner in motherhood.
So...
Yes, yes, yes.
I imagine a lot of that has todo with the shedding of
(03:29):
expectations and your journeyand all of the things, but...
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Yeah.
And how I came to ceremony, I ama mother of two.
I have a three-year-old and aone-year-old.
And I remember as I was pregnantwith my first talking to a
friend of mine who actually aclinical supervisor I had at the
time who was a mother, and shesaid it was the most
life-changing thing she had everbeen through.
And at the time, I couldn'treally grasp that because it was
(03:56):
like, well, I'm still going tobe me.
What's going to change?
It's one of those things thatYou can have this idea, but
until you're in it, then it getsreally real.
And how I came to ceremony, Ithink I'm someone who's always
gravitated towards ceremony.
I'm someone who...
Yeah.
(04:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
For sure.
And I think we always try to putwords to something to maybe
explain ourselves or explain ourexperience.
But I love what you just said,that idea that some things can't
be put into words because Ioftentimes feel like that when
I'm trying to express myself tomy therapist or my husband or a
friend.
(05:03):
I don't even know how todescribe what I'm feeling or
what this experience is for me.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Exactly.
And that's something I soappreciate about you naming to
myself and your other listenersis that transition into
motherhood is so expansive.
It's beyond words, right?
And chalk therapy is wonderfuland it has its limits of what it
can offer.
And I just feel so lucky.
(05:29):
I kind of feel like the ceremonycame to me, not the other way
around is how I view it.
But to share a little bit moreabout how I learned about
Closing of the Bones and I'llsay what that is because I know
it's a really provocative namethat people are wondering, what
the heck is that?
So I had a pretty easy-ish, aseasy as birth can be with my
(05:53):
first, though I did have aC-section.
But I felt pretty goodphysically four weeks after, but
my second birth, whole differentballgame.
I had a another unplannedC-section.
And for me, it was reallyimportant to have a vaginal
birth after C-section, but thatwasn't in the cards.
(06:13):
So that was my big grief that Ihad and have had that I was
introduced to the ceremony.
So I want to give a shout out toa wonderful organization in
Boulder.
They're called Sanctuary Doulas,and they are not only a birth
center, they had a breastfeedingcircle that I was going to
because my first, what wastraumatic with him is he
(06:36):
developed allergies and eczemafour months into his life.
And that's something we continueto battle.
And so I was going to thisbreastfeeding circle and they
also had a postpartum supportgroup.
I was going to that and one ofthe counselors there told me
about the ceremony and my earsperked up.
(06:57):
I'm someone who believes in thepower of ceremony.
And so that's where I was firstintroduced to it, was engaging
with my own support in a reallydifficult time in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, that sounds like a great place.
It really sounds like it has alot of options for people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
yeah.
I guess what do you think foryou was...
the point where you're like, Ineed to do this.
Like you said that it's calledto you, but if you can put into
words, maybe it's not evenwords, but what was the point
where you're like, I need tocommit to doing this for myself?
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yeah, I think it was the facilitator at the time
saying she was completing hermaster's and she was writing a
dissertation on using ceremonyfor maternal mental health and
helping moms grieve.
And when I heard hearing momsgrieve, I was like, every part
of my body was like, yes,because I was grieving my
(08:00):
physical recovery.
The short story is I had mybladder nicked.
I had a stitch put over myureter.
I had even considered, I'm not alitigious person, but I
considered taking legal action.
I think whenever we go throughpain in life, there's nothing
more healing than having ourpain be heard and taking action
(08:21):
over pieces that we did not havechoice or control over.
And so the closing of the bondsreally is that.
It's a way to honor our griefand our celebration.
Like sometimes I find myselfeven I feel like I'm being too
doomsday about motherhood orsomething.
And I have to remind myselfwe're allowed to have our
(08:43):
gratitude and our celebrationtoo.
And I love being a mother.
And this last year having oursecond has rocked me in a way
that I never anticipated.
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Yeah, I think it's interesting the messages that I
think are often given to womenabout, you know, just be
grateful you're alive, just begrateful your baby's healthy.
And it's like, okay, I can bethose things, but I can also be
sad and I can also grieve what Iwanted and what ended up
happening.
SPEAKER_02 (09:13):
Maybe
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
even anger mixed in there too.
Absolutely.
Feeling robbed of an experienceand feeling anger about being in
pain.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Yeah, I think we all know what grief is, right?
We have this understanding, butto listeners who might be
thinking, well, I don't knowthat I have grief.
If you have anger, if you havesadness, those are grief.
Anger around, yeah, how you justbeautifully put it, of getting
something you didn't intend toget or vice versa.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Yeah, I was hoping you could maybe explain to the
listener a little bit about whatgrief the ceremony is like or
the process so they can have afurther understanding of what
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
it looks like.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
I would love to.
So basically, it's a four-hourceremony in your own home.
I am open to facilitating it forpeople in a place other than
their home.
If they don't want to do itthere, you could do an Airbnb or
a friend's house.
And it's a way for the mother tobe nourished.
I think we have in our culture asevere lack of ceremony to
(10:20):
nourish the mother in that Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:02):
curing your pain and reflectingyour strengths.
And so it's an opportunity totell your story of who you are
now, how pregnancy was, sharingall those big pieces.
Because in our culture, when Ithink of ceremony, we have
weddings to honor thattransition.
We have funerals and othercultures have other ones around
(11:26):
turning 15.
But how do we not have one?
For the most expansive change aperson's body and being and a
role can undergo.
And so that's where this comesin.
SPEAKER_01 (11:42):
Yeah.
I've been talking to a lot ofwomen about what being a woman
is about and motherhood and thewords like receiving and
creating really have come backto me over and over again in
conversations.
And it really sounds like thisis an opportunity for a mother
to change.
Absolutely.
(12:02):
And kind of honor the creatingof this new life and new
experience.
And yeah, I don't know.
Hearing you talk about it mademe think of those two words that
I kind of keep hearing over andover again about what feminine
energy is all about.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Yes, this is all about the divine feminine, the
healthy feminine, and thehealthy masculine too, but heavy
on that.
the mother receiving mothering,hence the title of the episode,
of that early postpartum periodespecially.
Anyone who's been through itknows how taxing it is, even in
(12:38):
the most equitable relationship,that there are things only the
mother can provide.
And so it is what it is, andmany women claim it with pride,
and they want to give to thisnew beautiful being that they
created.
And it's a lot.
It's exhausting in every wayimaginable.
(13:01):
And I don't know about you, butI've never left a baby shower
feeling nourished.
I maybe felt celebrated.
I maybe felt people wereexcited, but I was doing the
dishes afterwards and I wasn'tnourishing.
All I wanted when I was pregnantwith my second was to be in my
(13:23):
living room with some of myclosest friends and do a tarot
reading.
And that's what we did.
So when you think closing thebones, four hours of nourishment
in your home, you can think ofthat.
Whatever rituals are meaningfulfor you.
I identify as interfaith.
I have a Christian background.
I also have attended lots of newthought metaphysical communities
(13:45):
like Unity, and I'm willing tobring in whatever practices
Yeah.
I imagine some
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Prep would go into this too.
So this woman's not justentering into this space.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Exactly.
Not sure how to do this.
Exactly.
Yes.
And I feel strongly about that.
I know other people in thisspace doing Closing of the Bones
without that preparation and nojudgment to them, but I feel
passionate about offering thatpreparation.
So I facilitate threepreparatory sessions for anyone
who's interested in doing this.
(14:46):
For us, you can think of it,it's not therapy, but bringing
in all my therapy skills ofhelping a woman tell her story
of what is she most proud of andwhat's been the hardest.
So for me, it was powerful totalk about having two unplanned
C-sections and all the thingsthat went wrong, needing
(15:06):
multiple surgeries in thosefirst three months.
And then also to talk about, Ihad a two-year-old at the time,
talk about what it was like tohave my own activated needing to
bring an EpiPen everywhere andbe really focusing on, is my
child okay?
Which brought up some stuff Iwon't go into, but touched on
dynamics from my childhood.
(15:27):
And so- the first hours justtalking about whatever you want
to share.
And then us building in thoserituals that we would have
already talked about in thosethree preparatory sessions to
ultimately help a woman let goof a painful story that is hard
to let go of, which we know astherapists, right?
(15:49):
The kind of trauma looping of astory that's trying to work
itself out.
And sometimes the When it's notworking itself out, it's because
it hasn't been witnessed enough.
And so this is helpful for that,for a group of people to really
hear the pain points to helpthat story shift back towards
(16:10):
empowerment, back towards awoman's ultimate power.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Yeah.
The word witnessing made me havea tangent thought about Going
back to that group therapy thingthat you were talking about,
like the power of having otherpeople hear you or see you, like
really see you.
Not just like, oh, I see you'resitting in the room, but see you
(16:36):
in a meaningful and deep way andthat in itself being a part of
the healing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Absolutely.
Yes.
And seeing in ways that, again,don't always involve words.
Yeah.
When I think ritual, I thinkthose tools that we have that
help us move emotion and be withemotion is music.
Music is so powerful.
So that's built in of a song ofa person's choosing.
(17:06):
I have a whole motherhoodplaylist, actually.
If people need ideas, that wasshared with me when I went
through this process, and it'sstill a playlist I listen to all
the time.
So And then I really want totalk about the somatic part of
the intervention.
So why it's called Closing theBones took me a while to get
there, but thanks for hanging onthere, listeners.
(17:29):
So the idea is, or the realityis, our bones are actually open
when giving birth.
And I met with a physicaltherapist recently who told me
even though I had C-sections,the bones still had to open some
because of the laboring process.
And So I do actually know ofsome physical therapists who, if
(17:52):
anyone's needing pelvic floortherapy afterward to help with
that actual physical closing,where my skill set comes in is
the emotional closing of namingwhen you're in a new season or
era of motherhood.
So I'd love to talk about whenthis can be powerful.
But the somatic component islike 20 minutes where...
(18:17):
I bring seven cloths, thesebeautiful, colorful cloths that
you get swaddled.
And so we swaddle our babies.
Why don't we nourish and swaddleour mamas?
And it's just a relaxingexperience.
There can be light music in thebackground and you're adorned
(18:37):
with flowers.
You're lying on the ground, justrelaxing.
soaking in having just sharedyour story, soaking in the
support.
That's what was most powerfulfor me was just feeling these
women sit around me and bethinking of me and holding me in
(18:58):
love.
So powerful.
Yeah.
And
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking of this ideathat you just mentioned, like
women holding you in love andAnd I don't know, it almost
brought a little bit of like atear to my eye by thinking about
that and how, yeah, I'm gettingemotional, how important I think
it is for everyone to feel that,but especially after something
(19:23):
where you're literally givingevery ounce of love that you can
to a baby.
It's so
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
important,
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
I think, to know that it's possible or that other
women are also wanting to givethat back to you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, and I am touched by yourtears, and there's never a dry
eye in the house when we dothis, and it's powerful.
It's powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah, it sounds like a beautiful experience for
everybody involved.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
It is, yeah, and because it brings stuff up and
out, and there's often a reliefat the end of that.
I know you practice EMDR.
I do, too.
And for listeners who have donethat, it's like when there's a
powerful EMDR session, it feelslike that.
It's like, Right.
Like I let go of something.
(20:16):
I don't even know what, but Ilet go of something and thank
God.
SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
Yeah.
Collective breath, everyone liketogether now.
SPEAKER_00 (20:24):
Yeah.
And so we often do that intenseexperience in the middle.
And then that last hour is justeating a meal together and that
debriefing, the coming down.
I always remember.
prep women, you're going to beexhausted, just like an EMDR
session.
So hopefully you can have a napafterwards.
(20:45):
And then about a month later iswhen I find it to be most useful
is doing a follow-up one-hourintegration session to talk
about the impact of what ithelped a mother release, what it
reminded her of, all the yummypositive impacts.
And then if stuff has left to betended to, which there often is,
(21:09):
if the woman isn't alreadyfeeling supported enough, what
is enough support?
We always need more village.
I have a big network.
I'm happy to, you know, shareand get that person connected.
If I don't have any therapyopenings to groups, like you're
a wonderful group.
SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
thank you.
Yeah.
I think it's, I don't knowwhat's coming up for me here as
you're explaining even like thefollow up that like, even though
this maybe it hasn't been, quoteunquote, researched or like
science.
And like all of the things thatyou're explaining and talking
about in other modalities oftherapeutic experiences have
(21:51):
been in
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
the Semitic
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
ones.
Yes, the somatic ones and evenjust like the power of community
has been, you know, reallytalked about as something that's
like evidence-based and healing.
And I'm even thinking about whatwas it that you said?
Oh my goodness, my brainblanked.
It'll come back.
Yeah, it'll come back.
But I think it's just sounds,yeah, in so many ways, even
(22:15):
though there's maybe hasn't beena research paper written on this
experience that it would trulyhelp people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Yes.
Thank you for naming that.
We are forever changed.
And the impacts that can beexperienced through community,
through ceremony can be at anylevel, every level of mind,
body, spirit.
So I performed one for someonewho was experiencing part of her
journey in pregnancy andpostpartum was blood pressure
(23:12):
all over the place.
And when we did our integrationsession, she said, I have so
much that's stressful that'sgoing on in my life that I
should feel hijacked, but Idon't.
I just feel energized and myblood pressures are going down.
Can we imply causation?
I don't know, but how curious,right?
(23:36):
And that whole, the body keepsthe score.
And so building in the somaticcomponent, Yeah.
Yeah.
(24:04):
What was one thing that waspowerful in mine of helping
letting go of a painful storywas letter writing.
I had my doula and my spouse wasthere for part of the time, not
all of the time.
He wrote a letter justwitnessing all the strength and
power that they witnessed in mylaboring, even though it wasn't
(24:25):
the outcome I wanted.
And that's a letter I'll hold onto my entire life.
Another way it can look iswriting down pain points and
negative beliefs that you haveabout yourself.
You want to let go of, we canburn them in a circle, those
sorts of things.
And I get creative with myceremony clients.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
That's good.
Yeah.
I think the thought that cameback to me was, I imagine
there's potentially certainwomen listening to this being
like, I don't have time forthat.
Or what a privileged thing todo.
Yeah.
how selfish, whatever.
Maybe you're not saying that,but I could potentially hear
(25:05):
critics saying those things.
And I guess I'm sure you havethings to say in support of
this, but something that'scoming is someone hasn't even
done this ceremony, but justlistening to you speak about it
is if you're healing the mother,you're healing the family,
right?
Because the mother is working tobe attuned with the working to
(25:28):
be attuned with a baby, workingto be attuned with a community.
And if mom is out of attunementwith herself, how is she even
able to do any of the thingsthat is really asked of her in
this journey of motherhood?
And so, yeah, I guess that'swhat I would say to any
potential day sayers about thisjourney.
(25:49):
ceremony or really any care thatgoes back to the mother because,
yeah, I would argue that mothersare the foundation of society in
a lot of ways.
They
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
are.
They are.
Yes.
And they need nourishmentdesperately.
We need nourishment.
And I appreciate you namingthat.
It's something my own innercritic.
I'm constantly battling in myown head when I'm trying to get
my butt out of the house to godo that thing I want to do for
myself.
But I also want to be with myfamily and my toddlers crying.
(26:22):
That is real.
And what I would say to that,which I'm so passionate about,
and I think you are too, is whatyou just framed that When we
take care of ourselves asmothers and allow ourselves, I'm
talking four hours.
I'm not talking a week in theBahamas though.
(26:44):
I hope we all do that too.
It is like trying to giveyourself permission for this
gift, whatever it looks like andhowever you're nourished, be it
ceremony or otherwise.
Because when we're able to fitin self-care and being
nourished, We're better humans,better mothers, better spouses.
(27:07):
We're just more filled up and itdoesn't have to be for others
too.
I'm trying to fight thatnarrative.
It can be just for us, but Iknow it's something us women
struggle with.
It has to be like for others.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yes.
Yes.
And so whatever gets you in thedoor, whatever gets you in the
door to take care of you, right?
Like the adage around, you haveto put that oxygen mask on
yourself before you can put iton the person next to you.
Like, it really is important tocare for yourself in a variety
of ways.
And this is just one reallygreat ceremony and excellent way
(27:41):
to support yourself in yourcommunity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
And not shaming yourself when like that takes
years.
Sometimes we, I had a friend sayrecently putting band-aids on
it.
Like, yeah, sometimes we have toput band-aids on it, but when
there's even a little window ofa, of a weekend, it can be
powerful.
UNKNOWN (28:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
Yeah.
So why do you think this isparticularly important for women
to hear now in today's world?
I
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
love the question.
I might need to think on that.
I mean, we're inundated.
We are inundated.
We are holding so much.
We give so much to others.
We need to have a balance ofreceiving in that process that
divine feminine receiving tocontinue the flow of give,
(28:36):
receive, give, receive to makeit through these wild times
we're in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that it's reallyvaluable to take care of
yourself, you know, not justnow, but in general in the
future, because the world's notbecoming any less complicated as
we move through it, right?
No.
More things calling ourattention, more barriers to
receive help or access childcareor what have you, like taking
(29:07):
care of you.
Yeah, I think it's fundamental.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Absolutely.
Yes.
When we're doing okay, then wecan show up and take action and
hold hope in a world where itcan be easy to despair.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I was hoping you mightbe able to share how people can
find you or potentially otherresources that you're really
loving right now that you wantto share with the listener.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
Yeah.
Lately, I am loving if you're alistener and also a business
owner.
I was introduced to RenegadeMotherhood.
as a networking opportunity,which is all about doing
business like a mom.
Obviously, I love this podcastor I wouldn't be on here.
Sanctuary Doulas in Boulder,Colorado, all kinds of wonderful
(29:59):
resources out there.
And I know of other groups aswell.
So I am also excited to beoffering a newsletter.
So I hope Listeners will checkme out if this resonates with
you, wildtransformations.com.
Wild Transformations with an Sat the end is my business.
(30:21):
And I'm also on Facebook andInstagram under Wild
Transformations.
And in the monthly newsletter, Ipromise not to inundate people's
inbox, but just once a month, Iwill be sharing little raw
snippets of my own life of beinga mother that'll make you laugh,
make you cry, eating chickennuggets off the floor, just all
(30:45):
the stuff.
And also sharing resources thatare out there to, to get through
this.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
And all that information isgoing to be in our show notes.
So if anyone wants to find it,feel free to go to the website
to find the show notes and alsobe in our newsletter that also
comes out.
So I hope that everyone reallyloved what you had to say.
I loved what you had to say.
So hopefully the audience agreeswith me, but thank you so much
for being on today, Kelly.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yes, thank you so much Stephanie.
It was great to chat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:19):
Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again
and share with other people soother people can continue to
listen to Redefining Us and wecan get into more listeners
ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
(31:41):
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to to bringingon guests and talking about
topics that are unique andinspiring to everyone.
So please let me know.
And this year, hopefully we'llbe full of a lot of community
building, a lot of publicspeaking, a lot of resource
(32:03):
sharing.
So I really encourage you tofollow us on social media at
well-minded counseling onInstagram as our handle, as well
as going directly to ourwebsite, wellmindcounseling.com
backslash redefining hyphen us.
So So you can be in the knowwith all the things that are
happening in the Redefining Uscommunity.
(32:25):
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
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