April 24, 2025 • 30 mins
What happens when your grief is invisible to the world—but unbearably real to you? In this episode, my guest Arden Cartrette, a birth and bereavement doula who has turned her personal experience of multiple miscarriages into a powerful mission of healing and advocacy. From breaking the silence around first trimester loss to highlighting the massive gaps in medical training and support, Arden shares the truth about miscarriage that too many people experience in isolation.
We talk about the emotional complexity of pregnancy loss, why comparison can deepen our pain, and how empathy—real, lived empathy—can change everything. Whether you're a parent, a practitioner, or simply someone trying to be more present for others, this conversation invites you into a more honest and human understanding of grief and care through pregnancy loss.
And if you need support or would like to connect with Arden you can find her at:
Website - https://www.themiscarriagedoula.co/
Instagram - @themiscarriagedoula
Learn more about the Redefining Us Monthly Community - https://wellmindedcounseling.com/redefining-us-community
Please leave us a review or rating! These help get the show out to more women like you wanting to have these conversations.
Would you like to chat more about this episode's topic? I would love to continue our conversation over on Instagram! @wellmindedcounseling
I wrote a book! Becoming Mommy: Aligning with yourself and finding your voice during pregnancy and motherhood, available at all major retailers - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DZT9P3RB?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&bestFormat=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Redefining Us, where we explore
sexuality, identity, motherhood,and mental health to help women
thrive authentically.
Let's break free from roles thatlimit us and create a life where
you can truly be yourself.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieContrera.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor, and I have with me
(00:21):
today Arden Cartrett, who is abirth and bereavement doula that
focuses on support before,during, and after pregnancy
loss.
She founded the MiscarriageDoula in 2020 as a woman.
We're experiencing pregnancyloss during the pandemic and has
supported thousands of womenthrough the highs and lows of
(00:42):
grief after loss.
Based out of North Carolina,where she lives with her
husband, living children, andpets, she loves to show people
the care they deserve.
Awesome.
Yes, let's just dive in.
So glad that you're here.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out of your day.
I know life as a business personand life as a mom is a crazy
(01:02):
life.
So I really appreciate youtaking time to be here today.
Of course.
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Yeah.
So I'd love to hear about thework that you do with people and
why you're so passionate aboutit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Yeah.
So...
I am essentially a miscarriagedoula, but I always love to
start with like, I don't lovethe term miscarriage because I
don't feel like it properlytakes in everything that we go
through with pregnancy loss.
But I try to first call it firsttrimester birth and second
trimester birth and refer to itas birth and death.
But Algorithms on social mediadon't recognize those as terms
(01:38):
for people to find me.
And so the miscarriage doula iswhat I am.
I started doing this work in2020.
So my first living son was bornin February of 2020, only three
weeks before we were on lockdownfor the pandemic.
I was struggling with postpartumanxiety at the time, but it was
deeper than that because beforehe was born, I had two
(02:01):
miscarriages and I struggled toget pregnant.
And I just had this goal thewhole time of like, if I could
just have a baby in my arms,everything would be fine.
This will all not matter in thefuture.
And then he was born and I sawhis little face and I thought,
oh, that's what the two babies Ilost.
That's what they could havelooked like.
Or this is now putting a humanversion of those babies to my
(02:25):
eyes.
Just the psyche of it wasmessing me up.
And so I had been supportingpeople I guess in a less
professional way because I amvery open.
I have little to no filter.
And so whenever I went throughmy pregnancy loss experiences, I
talked about it very loudly onthe internet and that drew a lot
(02:46):
of attention from people becausenot everybody, I call it a
privilege that I am so openbecause I don't care what people
think about my openness, butthere are people who can't talk
openly, but they want to so bad.
And so I talked really openlyabout miscarriage.
People would find my Instagramaccount and I had a fertility
blog and I would walk themthrough pregnancy loss.
(03:08):
And so then once my living childwas born, I thought, how can I
do this on a bigger scale?
My job working in real estatecontracts did not feel important
anymore.
I was like, this is not making adifference in the world.
Like anybody can read thiscontract.
I don't know.
It just felt so small.
And so I took a course bySisters and Lost to become a
(03:32):
birth and bereavement doula.
And their course really focusedon birth in second and third
trimesters.
And so I saw that still thatfirst trimester birth and lost
was missing.
There was still this gap.
And so I focused more on firstand second trimester losses.
However, I've supported a lot ofpeople through their trimester
(03:53):
losses as well.
And I don't think I knew what Iwas building at the time that I
was building it.
I just knew I needed to buildsomething.
The goal was always for peopleto find me before they
experience loss because I wantto help prepare people.
I want them to know whatquestions to ask.
I want them to understand thepros and cons of all of their
options.
I want them to feel like theyhave an informed choice, not
(04:15):
just hearing the options andbeing like, well, one is
surgery, so I'm going to picksomething else without really
understanding what's what thesurgery aspect is, but also how
to navigate the grief becausethe grief is what took me down.
I felt like it was so heavy andI didn't understand why it was
so heavy because I didn't knowthis little life and I lost them
(04:36):
so early.
I couldn't comprehend why it wasso heavy.
And so doing a lot of continuingeducation in grief and trauma
has been really, reallymeaningful for me, but also for
other people.
And so now I run the MiscarriageDoula, which is an online
resource and service.
I talk to people one-on-one.
We have support groups.
(04:57):
We have a ton of free handoutsthat basically just list out all
of the options and things to goto the store and buy if you're
having a miscarriage at home,along with some things to help
people cope in grief after loss.
And so it's kind of what I doand why I do it.
I feel like that's the shortversion and that was very
long-winded.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
What I really heard from what you were saying is
that like most helpers, therewas this personal experience
that then led to a lot ofcuriosity for you and this deep
drive to have a lot of morepersonal understanding of
yourself that then led to thisdeep desire to help other people
(05:35):
who are going through or maybemight go through or have been
through the same or similarsituation.
And I mean, in my opinion,people can argue about that with
me about that.
But I think those are the besthelpers because there's such a
passion and ability to beempathetic with the person that
(05:57):
they're sitting across from thatmaybe isn't there when someone
doesn't come from that place ofdeep curiosity and deep empathy.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Yeah, totally.
And I usually say to my clients,I like who I am now.
I don't like how I got here, Iguess.
Like I would never, I don'tknow.
It's so complicated.
If I could wish away the traumaI experienced throwing
miscarriages, I would, Iwouldn't heartbeat.
I think that some people saythat they wouldn't because then
it would erase thosepregnancies, but I would love
(06:29):
not to relate to these people.
Right.
But unfortunately I do.
And then I guess, fortunately itgave me this deep understanding
of feeling empathy.
I mean, the empathy that Igained is, Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
I don't know if I've ever met someone who's like, I
really love that I had trauma.
Like, excellent.
Best kisses, right?
So I think that's veryrelatable.
Like, no one wants to go throughthese things in order to have
empathy.
But since it is a part of yourstory, it's really amazing to me
how you've really used that.
(07:27):
I'm going to use the word traumaagain.
I don't know if that's how youlabel it.
I might be putting words.
It is.
Okay.
No, yeah.
Yeah.
that trauma to then help otherpeople.
So,
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I do think it'sbecause I know that with your
podcast, a lot of your topicsare about like womanhood and
motherhood.
And I feel like one of thelessons that I learned from
experiencing loss is to teach mychildren this empathy myself,
instead of allowing them to justexperience the worst things in
the world and then gain thesethings.
Because my parents never taughtme the empathy level, but they
(08:01):
also didn't teach me that it wasokay to give part of myself to
other people.
So I didn't have the bestexamples growing up for these
things that I had to learn in ahard way, if that makes sense.
So I feel like as a mom, and Icall them my living children
because I have two children andthey're my third and fourth
pregnancy, I want to teach themto see people and to feel for
(08:23):
them when they're struggling.
Or if you can offer themsupport, do it like this.
It is simple, but I feel like Iwas never taught things like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
Yeah, I think it's really, I mean, I've heard the
phrase a thousand times, but I'mgoing to just use it since it is
so cliche and people know thesame, but we don't have to walk
in someone's shoes in order tounderstand their story.
And so like, how do you impressupon the importance of that when
it comes to even maybe some ofthe people that you work with?
(08:55):
I imagine, okay, I want to speakfor myself.
In my own story of life, therewas times where I was like,
well, my situation's not as badas this other person's or like,
I'm not that hurt by thisbecause like, look what this
other person went through.
So it's almost this imperativetrauma thing.
(09:18):
And I think that helps somepeople in my case, almost bypass
being empathetic towards myself.
Yeah.
Yes.
I do that a
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
lot with people.
I was going to say, I imaginethat's something you come across
with the people.
Yes.
It is.
And again, because my approachis to make sure that people are
experiencing the grief and thatthey're not trying to bypass the
grief.
I will catch people, especiallyin support groups, they will say
like, oh, well, so-and-so in thegroup had a loss three weeks
(09:50):
later than mine.
That's so much worse.
And then they feel like theycan't speak on their grief.
And so I usually will stop themor talk to them privately and
remind them that just becausesomebody has a loss, it's later
than theirs.
Or if somebody has a loss wherethere's more physical trauma
involved or more medical trauma,however they feel like somebody
else has it, quote-unquote,worse than them, that that's not
(10:11):
a reason not to feel grief.
My mom is very much somebodywho, like that, where she is
always like, well, at least youweren't diagnosed with cancer.
She's literally said that to mebefore.
And I'm like, mom, that doesn'terase what we're going through.
And so my response is always,well, somebody has it better,
but we still celebrate our wins.
We don't just tell somebody notto celebrate a promotion at work
(10:31):
because somebody out there ismaking a billion dollars a year.
You know what I mean?
So I think it's natural to dothat.
But there's that saying thatcomparison is the thief of joy.
And I've posted on Instagramsaying comparison is the thief
of grief.
And I find that to be true a lotof the times because people,
again, talking about like theheaviness of pregnancy loss and
(10:53):
the grief that comes with it.
People are like, well, I've lostmy dad.
Why am I so sad about this loss?
And it's a different loss.
That's why it's heavy in adifferent way.
And so seeing it all as separateis really important.
But people, they compare it allthe time.
It's hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (11:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I oftentimes when I work withclients, even who have had
living children, but maybe ithad a really difficult birth.
I'm not sure if that's somethingthat you focus on with your
clients, but just even the griefaround it not being the way that
they envisioned bringing yourbaby into this world.
And I imagine that probablycomes up in some of the work
(11:29):
that you do as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yeah.
There are people who...
have had a living child andmaybe experienced a loss after.
And maybe with their livingchild, it was a really traumatic
birth.
So they were looking forredemption in this next
pregnancy.
And then they experienced loss.
And it feels like a double blowof why can't the birth part of
this go correctly?
And that's a really hard thingto deal with because I do think
(11:55):
there's grief for thatexperience that you've had in
your head this whole timebecause you're In the world, we
paint birth as always thisbeautiful, magical time.
And for everybody, it's not.
And then the opposite can betrue as well, where people have
pregnancy loss or recurrentpregnancy loss or fertility
trauma, and then they're finallypregnant and things are going
well, they're preparing forbirth.
(12:16):
And usually their only goal is,well, I just want everybody to
be healthy.
And the experience is kind of inthe backseat.
And I do see a lot of people nothaving great birth experiences
because I think they spent 40weeks not focusing on actually
making it to that milestone.
So I feel like birth traumacomes from loss and from
(12:37):
full-term living children andpregnancies as well.
I
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
guess what do you see as a common reason why
people finally make the effortto call you and work with you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Most of the time, people come to me right after a
miscarriage.
And I always love when people dothat because then I can help
them prepare for the road aheadin the first month and having
the first period and thenreturning to everyday life.
But there are people who find mea year after, two years, and
it's sometimes they're stillstruggling to feel comfortable
(13:14):
getting pregnant again.
Sometimes they're struggling toget pregnant.
Sometimes they have a livingchild and they're like, okay,
this didn't fix anything.
Like that's still there.
But I would say majority of thepeople reach out because they
they're struggling and they'relooking for somebody who gets
it.
A lot of people are in therapyand have brought it up with
their therapist.
And like you said, it takes likesometimes just a level of really
(13:38):
getting it on a personal level.
So a lot of my clients are intherapy, but also talk to me as
a second person for thisspecific thing, just to talk
through what they're strugglingwith, especially because in
society, we hear a lot of atleast this and at least that.
And I don't say any of thosethings.
I just kind of will sit in thediscomfort and we make a plan
(13:59):
moving forward and, and thingslike that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
Yeah.
You know, I'll speak for myexperience as a therapist, but
you know, there's no, class thatthey give you on perinatal
mental health you have toindependently go out and seek
that information learn it it'snot just something that is a
prerequisite to become atherapist and even grief isn't
(14:23):
something that's really talkedall that much about in school I
had to take a special electiveto even learn about the process
of grief we get like a weekwhere they're like Oh, let's
talk about it.
And I'm like, grief is prettyimpactful.
And it literally impacts everysingle person, whether, you
(14:44):
know, like you said, like a lossof a parent or a loss of a child
through miscarriage or, youknow, what have you.
There's so many ways that losscan impact you and we get a week
of it.
So, yeah, I think.
Again, I'll speak for myself.
I've had to go out and educatemyself about how to talk to
people and explore theseconcepts and use that, what you
(15:05):
said, all the resources at handto learn because it's not just
readily available and talkedabout commonly, whether it's in
school or in the general public.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
I've had therapists reach out to me That way we
could all hop on a calltogether.
So I have done calls where itwas somebody and their
therapist.
And that was always really likeI like the collaborative aspect
of that.
And then I also I have a coursethat teaches people of different
professions of providingspecific to miscarriage grief.
(15:38):
A lot of therapists, a lot ofbirth doulas, which is really
important because sometimestheir clients can experience
loss.
But I think that that's like abig part of being in this
professional space is realizingif I want to learn more about
something, I have to actively goout and learn it.
There's not just a one size fitsall class or diploma or anything
like that, which I think I guessis really helpful that I like to
(16:01):
learn.
So I don't I don't mind taking alot of courses.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
Yeah, I think it's important for people to learn
what they want to learn about.
But I don't know.
I also feel like it's a slightlike disservice to learning.
Oh, totally.
Not having to be, again, inpeople's faces and talked about
all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Well, and I feel the same about in the medical field.
And I have a lot of clients whoare ER nurses, labor and
delivery nurses, nurses ingeneral, OBGYNs.
I've had fertility specialistsas clients.
They are not taught in medicalschool about miscarriage, not to
(16:40):
the degree that it needs to be.
It's covered in scientificallywhat happens and we can all
figure out what happens, youknow, but it's not discussed
heavily.
In my experience, in my secondmiscarriage, I ended up in the
ER because I was bleeding reallyheavily at home.
And I was in the ER for eighthours before anybody checked me
vaginally, even though I wasprofusely bleeding.
(17:02):
And now you've been trying to bedramatic.
I had blood all over my clothes.
They could see the blood on thefloor.
Nobody checked me.
my vagina for eight hours.
I had to fight them to getsomething stronger than Tylenol.
And the biggest thing was, isthat they just didn't understand
how intense a miscarriage is.
I think they heard me expressthat I was eight weeks, but my
(17:26):
pregnancy was only measuring sixweeks.
And they took that as like,okay, so this shouldn't be that
big of a deal.
But I was covered in blood.
And I have now, you know, nowthat I've had clients who work
in these fields, they have thesame experiences that I did.
And it takes that for them torealize how they weren't taking
it seriously before.
Then there's a lot of guilt withthat and, you know, other layers
(17:48):
to their grief where they wishthey could go back to all of
those patients that they didn'tunderstand what they were going
through because they didn't havethe education.
And so I feel like when I wasgoing through it, I was angry at
the medical staff because I waslike, how could you guys not
know this?
You're doctors.
But now I have a little bit moreempathy and I'm more mad at
education standards.
You know, we could fix that.
Those are things, those areclasses that we could focus on
(18:11):
or topics to spend more than oneclass or one week on.
And I understand the world isvery big and there are a lot of
things to learn about.
But I feel like grief, like yousaid, comes up so much.
And I imagine for nurses,pregnancy loss comes up, whether
it's on somebody's form or froma previous experience, like
still being trauma informed onthese topics is important.
(18:34):
And I just feel like we'refailing.
We're really failing humanbeings and not being more versed
in it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
And I think it could be handleda lot differently, especially
for people who are day in, dayout faced with these types of
clients.
It might be quote unquote, alittle bit different for just
your PCP, right?
That's not the thing thatthey're specializing in.
Yeah.
If you're a nurse that works onlabor and delivery floor, you
(19:02):
should probably be more educatedon miscarriage and that
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Well, and so in the United States specifically,
because I work with people allover the world, so I've got to
know like other health systemsand they all kind of suck.
I used to think, oh, wow, everycountry has it so much better.
And in a lot of ways they do,but healthcare sucks around the
world.
And I feel like that is a reallysad thing to realize.
(19:30):
But like in the UK, they have anearly pregnancy unit where if
somebody has bleeding early inpregnancy, they can go there for
specific care.
They don't have to go to thegeneral hospital.
Like here, if you have aproblem, you're going to the ER.
You can go to urgent care, butthey're going to tell you to go
to the ER.
Like you said, you're not goingto go to your PCP for this.
You might call your OB, butthey're going to tell you to go
to the ER.
(19:51):
And so you go to the ER wherethey see all types of different
things.
And I don't know, it's just, Ifeel like that's the one
department that I'm like, wecould totally do better here
because this is where people go.
When they have vaginal bleedingor if they're bleeding a lot out
of any hole in their body,they're going to the ER.
(20:11):
And so I think that they thinkabout it from a scientific term
and they know they can't doanything to necessarily prevent
it from happening.
But I think that focusing moreon the care would be really
helpful.
But I feel like there's a grayarea, especially in first
trimester care, even forsomebody who's pregnant.
and things are going well andthey're super sick.
(20:32):
I have a friend right now who'sdealing with this.
She goes to the ER, she'swaiting hours while throwing up
and going to the bathroom beforeshe's hooked up with fluids
after it's been days where she'snot eating.
And I just feel like there's agap in the care for people,
especially early on inpregnancy, whether things are
going well or not.
I don't know how to fix that.
(20:52):
I wish I did.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
I mean, I would imagine funding and research are
at the core of a lot of theseproblems.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
And I
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
fear we're getting
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
further and further from getting that.
Yes.
Which sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
I remember when I was pregnant,I had to wait until week 10 and
I was very anxious for like thefirst 10 weeks.
I had already experienced amiscarriage and then I had
experienced a chemicalpregnancy, which was still a
loss of itself, even though Iwouldn't even say it to myself,
(21:28):
even though it was only achemical pregnancy, right?
But the hope was there.
And yeah, so I was like almostangry that I had to wait 10
weeks to see someone because myanxiety was just...
every day.
Should I take another test?
Should I make sure that I'mstill pregnant?
I don't know what's going on inthere.
(21:50):
Do I need to get one of thoseDoppler things off the internet
so I can try to hear?
Can you even hear anything at 10weeks or before 10 weeks?
So I was just very anxious mostof that first trimester because
I don't know until week 10.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
That is also a crazy aspect to me.
I guess I'm biased because I Ionly support people in loss,
although I also support peoplein pregnancy after loss, but
they've experienced loss before.
And so if I had a client who wasin your situation, I'd be like,
well, do you want to be seenbefore 10 weeks?
Because let's make that happenhere.
I literally write out themessage for them to send to
(22:28):
their doctor to advocate forthat earlier ultrasound.
Or we talk about what are thepros or the cons of having an
earlier ultrasound on yourmental health?
Like, is it going to help?
It depends on people's stories.
And I think it's totally...
ridiculous to wait.
That's what the norm is becauseI think about it from my
(22:49):
standpoint, like my firstpregnancy stopped growing at six
weeks.
If I didn't have my firstultrasound until 10 weeks,
that's already over four weeksthat the pregnancy has not been
progressing, that my body hasbeen pregnant.
And then they're going to wantto confirm another seven to 10
days later, right?
And so I'm just going to keepbeing pregnant and That's so
(23:10):
dangerous if I start bleedingand I don't know what's
happening.
There's just so much that thenif you call and you're bleeding,
they're like, oh, that could benormal.
Just wait another week and comein.
And I don't know, I just feellike it could be so much better.
Or even just, you know, having aspot on...
an OB's website of resources incase somebody has a miscarriage
(23:32):
over the weekend or startsbleeding.
So that's a lot of things that Ihave set out to do, that I've
set out to change, making surethat that information is
accessible.
With my first miscarriage, I wasgiven my options and I was
terrified of having amiscarriage at home.
Like nothing else terrified memore.
I Googled, what is a miscarriagereally like?
(23:52):
And I was just met with Redditthreads where people talk about
how it was a heavy period.
I feel like people were afraidto be honest because I don't
think that that was theirexperience.
And now I've met thousands ofwomen who have not had that
experience.
Of course, there are people whohave that, but there's a scale
of normal.
And instead of telling us thescale, I was like, oh, this
(24:15):
can't just be a heavy period.
I already have heavy periods.
How much heavier could it be?
That's alarming.
And so I was not prepared forhaving my miscarriage at home.
And I wasn't prepared for theamount of blood.
I wasn't prepared for the pain.
Now that I have what feels likelived 10 lives, I recognize that
what I experienced werecontractions at home.
(24:36):
It was very birth-like.
And I think that it was reallybrushed off because pregnancy
stopped growing at six weeks.
But I think that there's a lotof factors that aren't taken
into account whenever we thinkabout pregnancy loss and I mean,
I've had people who have thequote unquote, I say quote
unquote chemical pregnancies,not because I don't think that
they are real, because I don'tlike the term.
(24:57):
I call them early miscarriages,is those can still be really
heavy.
And the consistency of thebleeding can be abnormal where
it's really concerning.
It's just across the board, weare so unprepared.
So my goal has always been to bea resource or to provide that
information a little bit easierfor people because I couldn't
(25:17):
find it.
And I don't want people to notbe able to find what they need
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
yeah and google isn't always your friend right
but if you can find the rightresource on google yeah which
just sounds like you have a lotof information on your website
that people can get educatedrather than just reading of no
offense to reddit but a redditthread right it's maybe not the
most educational informationthere
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yes.
And so I do have a lot of peoplewho find me from Googling
specific key terms aboutmiscarriage.
And even on Reddit, there arepeople who have shared my
resources there.
So I feel good that even ifsomebody ends up on Reddit,
there's still a chance that theyget that information.
I have made information fordoctors and I've sent it to them
for free.
I'm like, please just give thisto people.
(26:05):
I don't even care.
I don't care if I'm broke for mywhole life.
I just want people to know thisstuff because I think about
myself and the thought ofsomebody else feeling as
hopeless as I felt, literally,that breaks my heart.
I know that there are stillpeople who don't have access to
information because they're notthinking about Googling it or
(26:27):
maybe it's happening so quickly.
And I feel like those are thethings that keep me going
because I hate this is a realityfor so many people.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, let's share witheverybody where people can find
you and how they can connect.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Yeah, I guess the best way is my website is
miscarriagedoula.co, not dotcom.
And Instagram is where I am mostactive.
It's just Instagram at theMiscarriage Doula.
I provide a lot of contentthere.
I provide links to the freehandouts and our support groups
and things.
So those are probably the twobest places to find me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Awesome.
And I imagine a lot of yoursupport groups are virtual or
are they in person in NorthCarolina?
SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
Everything we do is virtual.
I do have in-person clientswhenever they're local to me,
but everything is offeredvirtually.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Awesome.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Thank you so much for being onArden.
I feel like I learned a lot.
I'm sure people that werelistening learned a lot.
So yeah, I really appreciateyour time.
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for tuning in toRedefining Us once again and
share with other people so otherpeople can continue to listen to
(27:40):
Redefining Us and we can getinto more listeners ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(28:31):
So you can be in the know withall the things that are
happening in the redefining uscommunity.
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
Welcome to Redefining Us, where we explore
sexuality, identity, motherhood,and mental health to help women
thrive authentically.
Let's break free from roles thatlimit us and create a life where
you can truly be yourself.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieContrera.
I'm a licensed professionalcounselor, and I have with me
(00:21):
today Arden Cartrett, who is abirth and bereavement doula that
focuses on support before,during, and after pregnancy
loss.
She founded the MiscarriageDoula in 2020 as a woman.
We're experiencing pregnancyloss during the pandemic and has
supported thousands of womenthrough the highs and lows of
(00:42):
grief after loss.
Based out of North Carolina,where she lives with her
husband, living children, andpets, she loves to show people
the care they deserve.
Awesome.
Yes, let's just dive in.
So glad that you're here.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out of your day.
I know life as a business personand life as a mom is a crazy
(01:02):
life.
So I really appreciate youtaking time to be here today.
Of course.
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Yeah.
So I'd love to hear about thework that you do with people and
why you're so passionate aboutit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Yeah.
So...
I am essentially a miscarriagedoula, but I always love to
start with like, I don't lovethe term miscarriage because I
don't feel like it properlytakes in everything that we go
through with pregnancy loss.
But I try to first call it firsttrimester birth and second
trimester birth and refer to itas birth and death.
But Algorithms on social mediadon't recognize those as terms
(01:38):
for people to find me.
And so the miscarriage doula iswhat I am.
I started doing this work in2020.
So my first living son was bornin February of 2020, only three
weeks before we were on lockdownfor the pandemic.
I was struggling with postpartumanxiety at the time, but it was
deeper than that because beforehe was born, I had two
(02:01):
miscarriages and I struggled toget pregnant.
And I just had this goal thewhole time of like, if I could
just have a baby in my arms,everything would be fine.
This will all not matter in thefuture.
And then he was born and I sawhis little face and I thought,
oh, that's what the two babies Ilost.
That's what they could havelooked like.
Or this is now putting a humanversion of those babies to my
(02:25):
eyes.
Just the psyche of it wasmessing me up.
And so I had been supportingpeople I guess in a less
professional way because I amvery open.
I have little to no filter.
And so whenever I went throughmy pregnancy loss experiences, I
talked about it very loudly onthe internet and that drew a lot
(02:46):
of attention from people becausenot everybody, I call it a
privilege that I am so openbecause I don't care what people
think about my openness, butthere are people who can't talk
openly, but they want to so bad.
And so I talked really openlyabout miscarriage.
People would find my Instagramaccount and I had a fertility
blog and I would walk themthrough pregnancy loss.
(03:08):
And so then once my living childwas born, I thought, how can I
do this on a bigger scale?
My job working in real estatecontracts did not feel important
anymore.
I was like, this is not making adifference in the world.
Like anybody can read thiscontract.
I don't know.
It just felt so small.
And so I took a course bySisters and Lost to become a
(03:32):
birth and bereavement doula.
And their course really focusedon birth in second and third
trimesters.
And so I saw that still thatfirst trimester birth and lost
was missing.
There was still this gap.
And so I focused more on firstand second trimester losses.
However, I've supported a lot ofpeople through their trimester
(03:53):
losses as well.
And I don't think I knew what Iwas building at the time that I
was building it.
I just knew I needed to buildsomething.
The goal was always for peopleto find me before they
experience loss because I wantto help prepare people.
I want them to know whatquestions to ask.
I want them to understand thepros and cons of all of their
options.
I want them to feel like theyhave an informed choice, not
(04:15):
just hearing the options andbeing like, well, one is
surgery, so I'm going to picksomething else without really
understanding what's what thesurgery aspect is, but also how
to navigate the grief becausethe grief is what took me down.
I felt like it was so heavy andI didn't understand why it was
so heavy because I didn't knowthis little life and I lost them
(04:36):
so early.
I couldn't comprehend why it wasso heavy.
And so doing a lot of continuingeducation in grief and trauma
has been really, reallymeaningful for me, but also for
other people.
And so now I run the MiscarriageDoula, which is an online
resource and service.
I talk to people one-on-one.
We have support groups.
(04:57):
We have a ton of free handoutsthat basically just list out all
of the options and things to goto the store and buy if you're
having a miscarriage at home,along with some things to help
people cope in grief after loss.
And so it's kind of what I doand why I do it.
I feel like that's the shortversion and that was very
long-winded.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
What I really heard from what you were saying is
that like most helpers, therewas this personal experience
that then led to a lot ofcuriosity for you and this deep
drive to have a lot of morepersonal understanding of
yourself that then led to thisdeep desire to help other people
(05:35):
who are going through or maybemight go through or have been
through the same or similarsituation.
And I mean, in my opinion,people can argue about that with
me about that.
But I think those are the besthelpers because there's such a
passion and ability to beempathetic with the person that
(05:57):
they're sitting across from thatmaybe isn't there when someone
doesn't come from that place ofdeep curiosity and deep empathy.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Yeah, totally.
And I usually say to my clients,I like who I am now.
I don't like how I got here, Iguess.
Like I would never, I don'tknow.
It's so complicated.
If I could wish away the traumaI experienced throwing
miscarriages, I would, Iwouldn't heartbeat.
I think that some people saythat they wouldn't because then
it would erase thosepregnancies, but I would love
(06:29):
not to relate to these people.
Right.
But unfortunately I do.
And then I guess, fortunately itgave me this deep understanding
of feeling empathy.
I mean, the empathy that Igained is, Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
I don't know if I've ever met someone who's like, I
really love that I had trauma.
Like, excellent.
Best kisses, right?
So I think that's veryrelatable.
Like, no one wants to go throughthese things in order to have
empathy.
But since it is a part of yourstory, it's really amazing to me
how you've really used that.
(07:27):
I'm going to use the word traumaagain.
I don't know if that's how youlabel it.
I might be putting words.
It is.
Okay.
No, yeah.
Yeah.
that trauma to then help otherpeople.
So,
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I do think it'sbecause I know that with your
podcast, a lot of your topicsare about like womanhood and
motherhood.
And I feel like one of thelessons that I learned from
experiencing loss is to teach mychildren this empathy myself,
instead of allowing them to justexperience the worst things in
the world and then gain thesethings.
Because my parents never taughtme the empathy level, but they
(08:01):
also didn't teach me that it wasokay to give part of myself to
other people.
So I didn't have the bestexamples growing up for these
things that I had to learn in ahard way, if that makes sense.
So I feel like as a mom, and Icall them my living children
because I have two children andthey're my third and fourth
pregnancy, I want to teach themto see people and to feel for
(08:23):
them when they're struggling.
Or if you can offer themsupport, do it like this.
It is simple, but I feel like Iwas never taught things like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
Yeah, I think it's really, I mean, I've heard the
phrase a thousand times, but I'mgoing to just use it since it is
so cliche and people know thesame, but we don't have to walk
in someone's shoes in order tounderstand their story.
And so like, how do you impressupon the importance of that when
it comes to even maybe some ofthe people that you work with?
(08:55):
I imagine, okay, I want to speakfor myself.
In my own story of life, therewas times where I was like,
well, my situation's not as badas this other person's or like,
I'm not that hurt by thisbecause like, look what this
other person went through.
So it's almost this imperativetrauma thing.
(09:18):
And I think that helps somepeople in my case, almost bypass
being empathetic towards myself.
Yeah.
Yes.
I do that a
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
lot with people.
I was going to say, I imaginethat's something you come across
with the people.
Yes.
It is.
And again, because my approachis to make sure that people are
experiencing the grief and thatthey're not trying to bypass the
grief.
I will catch people, especiallyin support groups, they will say
like, oh, well, so-and-so in thegroup had a loss three weeks
(09:50):
later than mine.
That's so much worse.
And then they feel like theycan't speak on their grief.
And so I usually will stop themor talk to them privately and
remind them that just becausesomebody has a loss, it's later
than theirs.
Or if somebody has a loss wherethere's more physical trauma
involved or more medical trauma,however they feel like somebody
else has it, quote-unquote,worse than them, that that's not
(10:11):
a reason not to feel grief.
My mom is very much somebodywho, like that, where she is
always like, well, at least youweren't diagnosed with cancer.
She's literally said that to mebefore.
And I'm like, mom, that doesn'terase what we're going through.
And so my response is always,well, somebody has it better,
but we still celebrate our wins.
We don't just tell somebody notto celebrate a promotion at work
(10:31):
because somebody out there ismaking a billion dollars a year.
You know what I mean?
So I think it's natural to dothat.
But there's that saying thatcomparison is the thief of joy.
And I've posted on Instagramsaying comparison is the thief
of grief.
And I find that to be true a lotof the times because people,
again, talking about like theheaviness of pregnancy loss and
(10:53):
the grief that comes with it.
People are like, well, I've lostmy dad.
Why am I so sad about this loss?
And it's a different loss.
That's why it's heavy in adifferent way.
And so seeing it all as separateis really important.
But people, they compare it allthe time.
It's hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (11:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I oftentimes when I work withclients, even who have had
living children, but maybe ithad a really difficult birth.
I'm not sure if that's somethingthat you focus on with your
clients, but just even the griefaround it not being the way that
they envisioned bringing yourbaby into this world.
And I imagine that probablycomes up in some of the work
(11:29):
that you do as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yeah.
There are people who...
have had a living child andmaybe experienced a loss after.
And maybe with their livingchild, it was a really traumatic
birth.
So they were looking forredemption in this next
pregnancy.
And then they experienced loss.
And it feels like a double blowof why can't the birth part of
this go correctly?
And that's a really hard thingto deal with because I do think
(11:55):
there's grief for thatexperience that you've had in
your head this whole timebecause you're In the world, we
paint birth as always thisbeautiful, magical time.
And for everybody, it's not.
And then the opposite can betrue as well, where people have
pregnancy loss or recurrentpregnancy loss or fertility
trauma, and then they're finallypregnant and things are going
well, they're preparing forbirth.
(12:16):
And usually their only goal is,well, I just want everybody to
be healthy.
And the experience is kind of inthe backseat.
And I do see a lot of people nothaving great birth experiences
because I think they spent 40weeks not focusing on actually
making it to that milestone.
So I feel like birth traumacomes from loss and from
(12:37):
full-term living children andpregnancies as well.
I
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
guess what do you see as a common reason why
people finally make the effortto call you and work with you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
Most of the time, people come to me right after a
miscarriage.
And I always love when people dothat because then I can help
them prepare for the road aheadin the first month and having
the first period and thenreturning to everyday life.
But there are people who find mea year after, two years, and
it's sometimes they're stillstruggling to feel comfortable
(13:14):
getting pregnant again.
Sometimes they're struggling toget pregnant.
Sometimes they have a livingchild and they're like, okay,
this didn't fix anything.
Like that's still there.
But I would say majority of thepeople reach out because they
they're struggling and they'relooking for somebody who gets
it.
A lot of people are in therapyand have brought it up with
their therapist.
And like you said, it takes likesometimes just a level of really
(13:38):
getting it on a personal level.
So a lot of my clients are intherapy, but also talk to me as
a second person for thisspecific thing, just to talk
through what they're strugglingwith, especially because in
society, we hear a lot of atleast this and at least that.
And I don't say any of thosethings.
I just kind of will sit in thediscomfort and we make a plan
(13:59):
moving forward and, and thingslike that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
Yeah.
You know, I'll speak for myexperience as a therapist, but
you know, there's no, class thatthey give you on perinatal
mental health you have toindependently go out and seek
that information learn it it'snot just something that is a
prerequisite to become atherapist and even grief isn't
(14:23):
something that's really talkedall that much about in school I
had to take a special electiveto even learn about the process
of grief we get like a weekwhere they're like Oh, let's
talk about it.
And I'm like, grief is prettyimpactful.
And it literally impacts everysingle person, whether, you
(14:44):
know, like you said, like a lossof a parent or a loss of a child
through miscarriage or, youknow, what have you.
There's so many ways that losscan impact you and we get a week
of it.
So, yeah, I think.
Again, I'll speak for myself.
I've had to go out and educatemyself about how to talk to
people and explore theseconcepts and use that, what you
(15:05):
said, all the resources at handto learn because it's not just
readily available and talkedabout commonly, whether it's in
school or in the general public.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
I've had therapists reach out to me That way we
could all hop on a calltogether.
So I have done calls where itwas somebody and their
therapist.
And that was always really likeI like the collaborative aspect
of that.
And then I also I have a coursethat teaches people of different
professions of providingspecific to miscarriage grief.
(15:38):
A lot of therapists, a lot ofbirth doulas, which is really
important because sometimestheir clients can experience
loss.
But I think that that's like abig part of being in this
professional space is realizingif I want to learn more about
something, I have to actively goout and learn it.
There's not just a one size fitsall class or diploma or anything
like that, which I think I guessis really helpful that I like to
(16:01):
learn.
So I don't I don't mind taking alot of courses.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
Yeah, I think it's important for people to learn
what they want to learn about.
But I don't know.
I also feel like it's a slightlike disservice to learning.
Oh, totally.
Not having to be, again, inpeople's faces and talked about
all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Well, and I feel the same about in the medical field.
And I have a lot of clients whoare ER nurses, labor and
delivery nurses, nurses ingeneral, OBGYNs.
I've had fertility specialistsas clients.
They are not taught in medicalschool about miscarriage, not to
(16:40):
the degree that it needs to be.
It's covered in scientificallywhat happens and we can all
figure out what happens, youknow, but it's not discussed
heavily.
In my experience, in my secondmiscarriage, I ended up in the
ER because I was bleeding reallyheavily at home.
And I was in the ER for eighthours before anybody checked me
vaginally, even though I wasprofusely bleeding.
(17:02):
And now you've been trying to bedramatic.
I had blood all over my clothes.
They could see the blood on thefloor.
Nobody checked me.
my vagina for eight hours.
I had to fight them to getsomething stronger than Tylenol.
And the biggest thing was, isthat they just didn't understand
how intense a miscarriage is.
I think they heard me expressthat I was eight weeks, but my
(17:26):
pregnancy was only measuring sixweeks.
And they took that as like,okay, so this shouldn't be that
big of a deal.
But I was covered in blood.
And I have now, you know, nowthat I've had clients who work
in these fields, they have thesame experiences that I did.
And it takes that for them torealize how they weren't taking
it seriously before.
Then there's a lot of guilt withthat and, you know, other layers
(17:48):
to their grief where they wishthey could go back to all of
those patients that they didn'tunderstand what they were going
through because they didn't havethe education.
And so I feel like when I wasgoing through it, I was angry at
the medical staff because I waslike, how could you guys not
know this?
You're doctors.
But now I have a little bit moreempathy and I'm more mad at
education standards.
You know, we could fix that.
Those are things, those areclasses that we could focus on
(18:11):
or topics to spend more than oneclass or one week on.
And I understand the world isvery big and there are a lot of
things to learn about.
But I feel like grief, like yousaid, comes up so much.
And I imagine for nurses,pregnancy loss comes up, whether
it's on somebody's form or froma previous experience, like
still being trauma informed onthese topics is important.
(18:34):
And I just feel like we'refailing.
We're really failing humanbeings and not being more versed
in it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
And I think it could be handleda lot differently, especially
for people who are day in, dayout faced with these types of
clients.
It might be quote unquote, alittle bit different for just
your PCP, right?
That's not the thing thatthey're specializing in.
Yeah.
If you're a nurse that works onlabor and delivery floor, you
(19:02):
should probably be more educatedon miscarriage and that
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Well, and so in the United States specifically,
because I work with people allover the world, so I've got to
know like other health systemsand they all kind of suck.
I used to think, oh, wow, everycountry has it so much better.
And in a lot of ways they do,but healthcare sucks around the
world.
And I feel like that is a reallysad thing to realize.
(19:30):
But like in the UK, they have anearly pregnancy unit where if
somebody has bleeding early inpregnancy, they can go there for
specific care.
They don't have to go to thegeneral hospital.
Like here, if you have aproblem, you're going to the ER.
You can go to urgent care, butthey're going to tell you to go
to the ER.
Like you said, you're not goingto go to your PCP for this.
You might call your OB, butthey're going to tell you to go
to the ER.
(19:51):
And so you go to the ER wherethey see all types of different
things.
And I don't know, it's just, Ifeel like that's the one
department that I'm like, wecould totally do better here
because this is where people go.
When they have vaginal bleedingor if they're bleeding a lot out
of any hole in their body,they're going to the ER.
(20:11):
And so I think that they thinkabout it from a scientific term
and they know they can't doanything to necessarily prevent
it from happening.
But I think that focusing moreon the care would be really
helpful.
But I feel like there's a grayarea, especially in first
trimester care, even forsomebody who's pregnant.
and things are going well andthey're super sick.
(20:32):
I have a friend right now who'sdealing with this.
She goes to the ER, she'swaiting hours while throwing up
and going to the bathroom beforeshe's hooked up with fluids
after it's been days where she'snot eating.
And I just feel like there's agap in the care for people,
especially early on inpregnancy, whether things are
going well or not.
I don't know how to fix that.
(20:52):
I wish I did.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
I mean, I would imagine funding and research are
at the core of a lot of theseproblems.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
And I
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
fear we're getting
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
further and further from getting that.
Yes.
Which sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah.
I remember when I was pregnant,I had to wait until week 10 and
I was very anxious for like thefirst 10 weeks.
I had already experienced amiscarriage and then I had
experienced a chemicalpregnancy, which was still a
loss of itself, even though Iwouldn't even say it to myself,
(21:28):
even though it was only achemical pregnancy, right?
But the hope was there.
And yeah, so I was like almostangry that I had to wait 10
weeks to see someone because myanxiety was just...
every day.
Should I take another test?
Should I make sure that I'mstill pregnant?
I don't know what's going on inthere.
(21:50):
Do I need to get one of thoseDoppler things off the internet
so I can try to hear?
Can you even hear anything at 10weeks or before 10 weeks?
So I was just very anxious mostof that first trimester because
I don't know until week 10.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
That is also a crazy aspect to me.
I guess I'm biased because I Ionly support people in loss,
although I also support peoplein pregnancy after loss, but
they've experienced loss before.
And so if I had a client who wasin your situation, I'd be like,
well, do you want to be seenbefore 10 weeks?
Because let's make that happenhere.
I literally write out themessage for them to send to
(22:28):
their doctor to advocate forthat earlier ultrasound.
Or we talk about what are thepros or the cons of having an
earlier ultrasound on yourmental health?
Like, is it going to help?
It depends on people's stories.
And I think it's totally...
ridiculous to wait.
That's what the norm is becauseI think about it from my
(22:49):
standpoint, like my firstpregnancy stopped growing at six
weeks.
If I didn't have my firstultrasound until 10 weeks,
that's already over four weeksthat the pregnancy has not been
progressing, that my body hasbeen pregnant.
And then they're going to wantto confirm another seven to 10
days later, right?
And so I'm just going to keepbeing pregnant and That's so
(23:10):
dangerous if I start bleedingand I don't know what's
happening.
There's just so much that thenif you call and you're bleeding,
they're like, oh, that could benormal.
Just wait another week and comein.
And I don't know, I just feellike it could be so much better.
Or even just, you know, having aspot on...
an OB's website of resources incase somebody has a miscarriage
(23:32):
over the weekend or startsbleeding.
So that's a lot of things that Ihave set out to do, that I've
set out to change, making surethat that information is
accessible.
With my first miscarriage, I wasgiven my options and I was
terrified of having amiscarriage at home.
Like nothing else terrified memore.
I Googled, what is a miscarriagereally like?
(23:52):
And I was just met with Redditthreads where people talk about
how it was a heavy period.
I feel like people were afraidto be honest because I don't
think that that was theirexperience.
And now I've met thousands ofwomen who have not had that
experience.
Of course, there are people whohave that, but there's a scale
of normal.
And instead of telling us thescale, I was like, oh, this
(24:15):
can't just be a heavy period.
I already have heavy periods.
How much heavier could it be?
That's alarming.
And so I was not prepared forhaving my miscarriage at home.
And I wasn't prepared for theamount of blood.
I wasn't prepared for the pain.
Now that I have what feels likelived 10 lives, I recognize that
what I experienced werecontractions at home.
(24:36):
It was very birth-like.
And I think that it was reallybrushed off because pregnancy
stopped growing at six weeks.
But I think that there's a lotof factors that aren't taken
into account whenever we thinkabout pregnancy loss and I mean,
I've had people who have thequote unquote, I say quote
unquote chemical pregnancies,not because I don't think that
they are real, because I don'tlike the term.
(24:57):
I call them early miscarriages,is those can still be really
heavy.
And the consistency of thebleeding can be abnormal where
it's really concerning.
It's just across the board, weare so unprepared.
So my goal has always been to bea resource or to provide that
information a little bit easierfor people because I couldn't
(25:17):
find it.
And I don't want people to notbe able to find what they need
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
yeah and google isn't always your friend right
but if you can find the rightresource on google yeah which
just sounds like you have a lotof information on your website
that people can get educatedrather than just reading of no
offense to reddit but a redditthread right it's maybe not the
most educational informationthere
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yes.
And so I do have a lot of peoplewho find me from Googling
specific key terms aboutmiscarriage.
And even on Reddit, there arepeople who have shared my
resources there.
So I feel good that even ifsomebody ends up on Reddit,
there's still a chance that theyget that information.
I have made information fordoctors and I've sent it to them
for free.
I'm like, please just give thisto people.
(26:05):
I don't even care.
I don't care if I'm broke for mywhole life.
I just want people to know thisstuff because I think about
myself and the thought ofsomebody else feeling as
hopeless as I felt, literally,that breaks my heart.
I know that there are stillpeople who don't have access to
information because they're notthinking about Googling it or
(26:27):
maybe it's happening so quickly.
And I feel like those are thethings that keep me going
because I hate this is a realityfor so many people.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, let's share witheverybody where people can find
you and how they can connect.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Yeah, I guess the best way is my website is
miscarriagedoula.co, not dotcom.
And Instagram is where I am mostactive.
It's just Instagram at theMiscarriage Doula.
I provide a lot of contentthere.
I provide links to the freehandouts and our support groups
and things.
So those are probably the twobest places to find me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Awesome.
And I imagine a lot of yoursupport groups are virtual or
are they in person in NorthCarolina?
SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
Everything we do is virtual.
I do have in-person clientswhenever they're local to me,
but everything is offeredvirtually.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Awesome.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Thank you so much for being onArden.
I feel like I learned a lot.
I'm sure people that werelistening learned a lot.
So yeah, I really appreciateyour time.
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for tuning in toRedefining Us once again and
share with other people so otherpeople can continue to listen to
(27:40):
Redefining Us and we can getinto more listeners ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(28:31):
So you can be in the know withall the things that are
happening in the redefining uscommunity.
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
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