What if we stopped accepting pain and shame as part of feeding our babies? In this intimate and eye-opening episode, Stephanie is joined by Valana Frohardt, a Denver-based lactation consultant and PA, who shares how her personal and professional experiences have shaped her mission to support birthing people with compassion and clarity. Together, they challenge the outdated narratives around breastfeeding and infant feeding, especially the unspoken expectation that parents should just "figure it out."
Valana dives into the emotional toll of unsupported feeding journeys, the gaps in medical training around lactation, and why trauma-informed care is essential in this space. Whether you're a new parent, a provider, or someone who simply wants to better understand the postpartum experience, this conversation will leave you feeling more informed, more empowered, and deeply seen.
About Valana: Valana Frohardt is an experienced medical provider, lactation consultant, and the owner of Feed & Flourish in Denver, CO. She loves helping moms and babies learn to breastfeed, and supporting women in their recovery after birth. Valana offers lactation visits during pregnancy to prepare for breastfeeding, lactation visits after baby arrives, and postpartum home visits to ensure both mom and baby receive ongoing support during the critical early weeks.
As a Physician Assistant with experience in both Family and Pediatric practice - and a mother herself - Valana brings a deep, holistic understanding of the physical and emotional needs of lactation and postpartum care. During postpartum visits, she tailors her approach to each mother’s unique recovery journey, ensuring they feel empowered, supported, and confident as they navigate this transformative time.
Connect with Valana:
Website: https://www.feedandflourishdenver.com/
Instagram: @feedandflourishdenver
Facebook: Feed & Flourish Denver
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Would you like to chat more about this episode's topic? I would love to continue our conversation over on Instagram! @wellmindedcounseling
I wrote a book! Becoming Mommy: Aligning with yourself and finding your voice during pregnancy and motherhood, available at all major retailers - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DZT9P3RB?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&bestFormat=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Redefining Us, where we explore
sexuality, identity, motherhood,and mental health to help women
thrive authentically.
Let's break free from roles thatlimit us and create a life where
you can truly be yourself.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
This is Stephanie Contrahera,licensed professional counselor,
(00:21):
and today I have with me...
Valena Frohart, who is a medicalprovider and lactation
consultant and the owner of Feedand Flourish in Denver,
Colorado.
She loves helping moms andbabies learn to breastfeed and
supporting women in theirrecovery after birth.
Valena offers lactation visitsduring pregnancy to prepare for
(00:41):
breastfeeding and lactationvisits after baby arrives and
postpartum home visits to ensureboth mom and baby receive
ongoing support during thecritical early weeks.
As a physician's assistant withexperience So thank you so much
(01:09):
for joining us today.
Yeah, thank you for having me,Stephanie.
Yes, of course.
So yeah, let's just jump rightin.
Why don't you share with me andthe audience why you decided to
become a lactation consultant?
(01:30):
Because I'm pretty sure you werea physician assistant first from
what I remember reading on yourwebsite.
So yeah, I'd love to hear yourbackstory and why you've made
this transition.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I always say that my sonAvery is my why.
And So I gave birth to him about10 years ago.
And honestly, it really knockedthe wind out of me, just that
process of giving birth andhaving a new human to take care
of.
And so now I just feel like sortof gradually going through that
(02:05):
process, it really led me tokind of a new passion for
wanting to support moms in thatprocess of finding themselves
navigating that transition andcatching their breath.
And so really for me, thatprocess came through lactation
support.
So, you know, I was sitting daysafter I had my baby, reeling in
(02:28):
shell shock from what I nowrecognize as a traumatic birth
and sitting in a body that kindof felt like it had some parts
broken.
And every time I went to feed mybaby, it was just excruciatingly
painful.
And so having to do that, youknow, eight plus times a day was
really hard.
And so I was living inWashington at the time, and I
(02:51):
was planning a trip to come backto Denver.
And a cousin of mine said, youknow, you should really see this
lactation consultant.
She changed everything for me.
And so I made an appointmentduring our trip.
And I'll be honest, sitting infront of her was the first time
in that post-birth time that Ifelt like somebody had really
(03:11):
listened to me and heard me.
And so that first, I think, waslike a first step in sort of
feeling better.
And then she was the firstperson that was able to make
feeding not painful for me.
And so I really felt like thetides were shifting.
And I felt like through thatprocess, for the first time,
(03:35):
motherhood felt doable.
And I started to find my footingas a mother in that appointment.
And so it really spurred in me apassion to be on the other side
of that table and to help momsin that process.
And hopefully, you know, Iacknowledge that not all women
kind of find their footing inmotherhood through
(03:58):
breastfeeding.
But for me, that was my journey.
And so I hope to help other momsin that way.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Yeah, I think early stages of motherhood, everything
is brand new.
And so having someone to guideyou on something that is a,
what's a good word, like aoption that a lot of women tend
to take, which is breastfeeding,I think is a really important
role.
I know in my postpartumexperience, going to a lactation
(04:27):
consultant was really helpfulbecause I had no idea what I was
signing myself up for withplanning to breastfeed or Really
knowing like how it's supposedto work or how often to do
anything.
Yeah.
So it's like you kind of feellike a fish out of water.
So having a guide in thatcritical moment, I think, is
really valuable for a lot ofwomen.
(04:48):
Yes.
What do you think is reallyimportant for women to hear
about breastfeeding and abouttheir journey?
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
I really like there's a lactation consultant
in town that says breastfeedingis innate and it's learned.
And I love that because I feelit highlights the piece that
you're not supposed to knoweverything the moment your baby
is born.
And so even if you are, youknow, hitting bumps in the road
(05:18):
or got off to a rocky start, itis something that with good
support can get better.
And as lactation consultants, wewant to meet you where you are
and we want to help you withyour goals.
So whatever you want yourfeeding journey to look like, we
want to support you in that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Yeah, I think that's so interesting.
If I would have heard thatpotentially before, I think that
would have been a lot lessstress because I heard from a
lot of women like, oh, it's justso natural.
And they're just like, kind oflike figure it out.
And You know, your baby knowswhat to do.
I'm like, well, I have no ideawhat to do, even if she knows
what to do.
I don't have a clue.
Yes.
(05:56):
Yes.
So, yeah, I think that wouldhave been a really helpful thing
to hear.
Oh, you actually have to learnthis.
You're just not going to figureit out on your own.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Right, right.
And I don't remember the detailsabout this, but I read, you
know, some study that ananthropologist did that was
trying to figure out what's thedifference between the
breastfeeding rates in differentcountries.
And of course, there's like allkinds of factors, you know,
including support for familiesin the postpartum period.
And there's lots of things tolook at there.
But kind of their hypothesis wasthat Women saw, growing up, saw
(06:33):
so many people breastfeedingthat they just had more of a
knowledge base when they hadtheir child.
And what they found was actuallythat was not the case.
What it had to do with is thatthere was more generational
support.
So there were more grandmothersaround and siblings around and
aunts around after the baby wasborn to help fill in those gaps,
(06:54):
to help learn that process.
And so I find that to be reallyfascinating of, you know, I
think in our country, theexperience varies a lot from
family to family.
But in a lot of cases, we don'thave a lot of generational
support.
And so I feel like that's wherewe as lactation consultants can
kind of fill in the gaps of whatin some places is generational
(07:16):
knowledge.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I know there's this termor phrase that people say like
fed is best.
And so I think in my earlyexperience, especially since My
mother-in-law and my mother bothused formula.
I don't know if that was like athing that people just did in
the late 80s and there wasn't asmuch breastfeeding.
I'd love to, never actuallylooked into the history of that,
(07:38):
but I'd be curious if there'sjust like these waves of
differences in generations.
But yeah, both of them werelike, well, just make sure she
eats.
That is best.
I'm like, yeah, but I can't getany tips or hints from you
about, right, do this since yourexperience was different with
breastfeeding.
feeding formula.
(07:59):
Instead of breastfeeding, Idon't think there's anything
wrong with feeding formula toanyone.
But I think just getting...
Yeah, there wasn't thatgenerational knowledge that
you're talking about.
And it was like a new piece forme.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Right.
Yeah.
No, and I think a lot of us havehad that experience in our
generation.
And I think You know, definitelysome of us were breastfed, but I
was in a similar situation wheremost of the information my mom
passed down to me was like, oh,breastfeeding hurt.
You guys bit me.
And so I think what's hard inthat and, you know, obviously
(08:35):
unintentional, but not only didsome of us not get helpful
practical information, but wemay have also gotten sort of
negative history about whatbreastfeeding is.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
And that I, again, I would love to hear what your
thoughts are.
I'm assuming if someone isexperiencing being bitten, there
are things that you can do tokind of encourage your child to
not bite you or to interruptthat behavior in some way to
continue the breastfeedingprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yes, yes.
So I loved it.
My mentor really looked at itfrom kind of an anthropological
lens, an evolutionary lens.
Thank you so much.
(09:42):
what she would always say islet's be curious about that.
And so I really appreciated thatbecause it kind of highlights
that's likely not a choice.
That's likely a behavior, like acompensatory behavior.
And so to your point, yes,there's typically a reason that
they are abiding and there'stypically a root cause of that
(10:02):
that can be addressed andapproved.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you're working with womenwho maybe have issues with their
baby having like tongue ties andthings like that.
Is that something that lactationconsultants are also able to
pick up on?
Or is that something given moreto like doctors or dentists and
things like that?
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, that's a really interesting issue.
So it's definitely acontroversial topic in
healthcare and in lactation.
Right now and probably for thelast five or 10 years.
And so what I always say, justlike in any conversation about
it, is I feel like it'scontroversial because it's
(10:47):
complex and we don't knoweverything about it.
So we're still trying to learnabout that topic and about which
babies benefit from having thattongue tie procedure.
So that's, I think, the lensthat I always like to look at it
through is like humility of, youknow, as medical providers and
as lactation consultants, wedon't know everything.
(11:08):
We're still learning about it.
But kind of officially,lactation consultants, it's not
within our scope to diagnosetongue tie.
So since I sit in this uniqueplace of also being a medical
provider, being a physicianassistant, I can make that
diagnosis and makerecommendations around that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Okay.
UNKNOWN (11:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And my approach is always, again, I try to approach
it with curiosity.
So if I see a baby that all ofthe low-hanging fruit solutions
have not improved whatever theproblem is, I think more deeply
about oral function.
And so in general, that categoryjust means how the mouse is
(11:51):
working, right?
But a component of that iswhether there is tight tissue.
So whether there's either atongue tie, so that soft tissue
that connects the tongue to theroof of the mouth is too tight
and not allowing the mouth tofunction.
But there's other components tothat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, you know, atleast from my very anecdotal
experience of being a mom andlistening to other moms, there
tends to be a lot of, I don'twant to use the word hysteria
because I feel like that's toostrong, but a lot of, oh my
gosh, does my baby have a tonguetie?
Like is that what's preventingthem from breastfeeding?
And it almost becomes thisanxious spiral that some women
(12:33):
tend to find themselves inbecause, you know, breastfeeding
is highly encouraged from a lotof medical professionals.
And so it Yeah, it becomes thispoint of stress and questioning
of whether or not it's this orwhether or not it's that.
And I'm assuming people thatcome work with you, you're able
to help them walk through thatrather than like sit in all of
(12:54):
these unknown questions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Yes, I definitely try to help them feel supported
in that.
Like, you know, first I try tosort of like I did A moment ago,
sort of frame the debate so thatthey recognize that if they
Google this, they will findextremely polarizing information
on either side.
And so I always want people toknow that because I never want
them to sort of feel like.
(13:18):
feel like they were tricked orthat they somehow ended up on
one side of the fence with youknow people that you know only
believe one thing because Ithink like lots of things in
life it's more nuanced you knowevery baby doesn't have a tongue
tie and it's not that no babyhas a tongue tie somewhere in
the middle so yes I do try tohelp them feel supported in that
and feel supported in theiroptions but yeah I think part of
(13:42):
it for me is that I feel likesometimes I mainstream medical
appointments ask, you know, veryquick questions about feeding.
And so I think sometimes we missthe deeper feeding issues unless
you truly ask those questions.
And so I'm also working as apediatric provider in a clinic.
(14:05):
And I love that in thispractice, they really do ask how
breastfeeding is going.
I feel like a lot of places willjust ask, you know, okay, are
you feeding your baby formula orbreast milk?
How often are you feeding?
It's kind of left at that.
And so I feel like that's wherethe complexity of some of these
issues gets fleshed out is whenyou really listen to women and
(14:27):
their feeding experience, youstart to realize that there's
more going on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
Yeah, this is making me think of my pediatrician
early on.
They did ask that question thatyou just said, feeding formula
or breastfeeding, however youfeed them.
And I remember feeling like Ishould say something right now
because she's not asking me, butI feel like I need to say
something.
And, you know, I brought myconcern up and she's like, I
(14:52):
think that's probably best leftfor a lactation consultant.
Maybe you should go see one.
And so that's what I ended updoing.
But yeah, my experience washaving an oversupply, which I
know is I'm sure some people whohave undersupply would probably
like quote unquote kill for thatexperience, but I would say it
was not pleasant when you've hadan oversupply.
(15:14):
And I oftentimes think to myselflike, oh man, maybe I should
have gone the extra mile andhired individual lactation
consultant because I had onlygone to groups like that were
provided at the hospital,
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
which
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
I think were helpful, but Potentially a
one-on-one would have been evenmore beneficial.
I'm kind of curious of yourthoughts of the difference
between like a group setting andan individual setting and what
someone might benefit to go theextra step and get an individual
appointment or to go outside ofmaybe what the hospital just
(15:49):
generally provides.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting
question.
And so I think groups are rundifferently, but I would say in
general, you know, the groupsthat I've been a part of and
ran, I feel like are best forthe social connection of being
around, you know, other peoplewho are in a similar state of
(16:13):
life to you and checking yourbaby's weight.
So you can usually get an ideaof how much they're eating and
feeding because they'll beweighed before feeding.
group and then afterward.
And then maybe troubleshootingpretty simple things, but I
think of it more as like what wewould call in medicine
anticipatory guidance.
(16:34):
So more like what's the normalexperience?
I have a newborn baby.
Approximately how many timesshould I be breastfeeding it in
a day?
I think that groups maybe areless tailored to problem-solving
individual challenges.
And so I think sometimes theycan be met, again, if it more
(16:55):
falls in that realm ofanticipatory guidance of like,
okay, you're just doingsomething like a little bit
incorrectly and we can help youwith sort of the standard
recommendations.
But if it's truly a morechallenging issue or an issue
that's more individual for you,I think a one-on-one lactation
appointment is often the mosthelpful route to go.
(17:17):
I think partially just because,you know, a lot of these Feeding
issues are also emotional and,you know, all of those things.
So I think it's also just likereally nice to talk about it in
a safe space with one person.
And then we can also, you know,typically lactation visits are
60 to 90 minutes.
So it's a long time to sort oftroubleshoot your specific
(17:42):
issue.
and have the opportunity for thelactation consultant to get a
detailed history, get detailedinformation about what's
happening, talk about what yourgoals are, and then watch a full
feed.
So to be able to give thatinsight during the feed.
And then to your point aboutwhether going back to the
hospital or seeking out aprivate lactation consultant, I
(18:06):
think hospital lactationconsultants are great.
And I think that the majority ofwhat they do is help in those
first 24 to 48 hours withbreastfeeding.
So I kind of feel like that'stheir real expertise.
And then after that period oftime, I feel like you've
(18:28):
somewhat graduated.
That's kind of the way I explainit to families that I've seen.
So you can certainly go back tosee a hospital lactation
consultant.
But I feel like those of us thatdo that post-hospital discharge
time, you know, that's what wespecialize in.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
Yeah.
And you wouldn't bring your babyback to the hospital for their
pediatrician appointment.
You'd go to, like, a specializedpediatrician.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So I know hospital lactationconsultants are great and offer
that service.
And so, you know, I encouragepeople to do what they're most
comfortable with, but that'skind of the lens that I think of
it through.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
That and...
If I were to reflect back, likejust even the availability of
making like an individualizedappointment would have been
beneficial for my life because Ifound like the time frame of the
group often like conflicted withsomething else going on.
So like having it be on yourtime in this one-on-one
(19:26):
specialized way, it could bereally beneficial for a person's
experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just reflecting out loudhere.
I think the hospital lactationconsultants did offer me a
one-on-one thing.
But in my early postpartumbrain, I was like, I'm probably
just going to be a burden.
My baby's fed.
(19:47):
Like, it's fine.
I'm just the one having theexperience.
She's, like, thriving.
Like, no issues.
I'm the one that's struggling.
Like, maybe this isn't somethingfor a lactation consultant to
help me with.
was what my brain was saying.
And now upon reflection,actually, it probably would have
been really helpful to go to aone-on-one visit.
(20:08):
So I'm curious if you couldspeak to that as far as how
would you approach someonesaying like, my baby's fine.
I'm the one that's struggling toconvince them to go over the
hump of not feeling like aburden.
That their needs are alsoimportant because I think that
kind of gets wrapped up in theearly postpartum experience and
messaging that we're given aswomen.
(20:29):
Like, oh, the baby has all ofthese appointments and the baby
is the most important person inthis dynamic.
And you're kind of just there toserve the baby.
thriving and striving.
So yeah, I'm kind of curiouswhat your thoughts are and what
you might communicate to womenin those head spaces and in that
early postpartum experience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, so Stephanie, I think that what your thought
process and your experience isvery common.
And so it was really interestingto me in one of my previous
roles as a medical provider, Idid home visits for moms and
babies within that first weekwhen they got home from the
hospital.
And what was fascinating to meabout those visits is that moms
(21:14):
would pretty much exclusivelyonly ask questions about their
baby.
And so the only way that I couldsort of elicit more information
about how the moms were doingand what they were struggling
with was to ask very directquestions about how they were
doing.
And then the whole story wouldcome out about what they were
struggling with.
(21:35):
And sometimes it was lactationrelated.
You know, sometimes it waspainful or a struggle or
stressful or any of thesethings.
But I think that happens for alot of reasons.
I think you're right.
There's cultural messaging therethat like we're there just to
take care of baby.
I think there's also a componentof there's some like tunnel
vision aspect of after you havea baby, it's just like your
(21:58):
mission to take care of thathuman being.
And so, yeah, I really encouragemoms, you know, I just kind of
think of it as, you know, if youwere doing anything else eight
to 12 times a day, you wouldreally try to pay attention to
your experience and make sure,A, it's not painful, B,
(22:19):
hopefully it's not stressful,you know, and C, ideally, it's
like a positive experience.
And so I really encourage momswomen to think about their
experience in breastfeeding.
And, you know, it's not allabout the baby's nourishment.
It needs to be about you too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, and again, I'm justsharing my personal story that
didn't kick in for me, thatthought process until seven
months.
Wow.
It would have been a verydifferent experience if I would
have thought about me beforeseven months.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
Right?
Yes.
Yes.
Well, and I kind of try to frameit for people too as like any
other injury because, you know,sometimes I'll see moms that
have a pretty obvious likenipple injury just in terms of
kind of like a scrape there or acut or a bruise.
And, you know, I try to frame itfor them of like, if you had an
(23:21):
injury anywhere else on yourbody, like you sprained your
ankle, there's no way you'd goout and run eight times a day on
your painful ankle.
And so I think there's maybe alittle bit of a disconnect for
us as women in terms of theseissues that, you know, get kind
of labeled as women's health orwomen's issues that we're
(23:42):
supposed to just push throughthem.
Whereas in any part of yourbody, that would not be the
message you would get.
And so I try to also help peoplethink of it that way of like,
let's take a step back and thinkabout this.
If this was any other part ofyour body, you would be more
gentle and you would seek outcare for how to make this
(24:03):
better.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
I'm even thinking about someclients that I have as a
therapist and I'm talking abouttheir postpartum experience and
just the deprioritization thatwomen put themselves through.
And after birth and figuring outhow to like, okay, well, like
the baby is really important.
(24:24):
And I understand that.
And I think that too.
And you also need care andattention and to be prioritized.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yes.
Yes.
And prioritized as like yourown, you know, to your point, as
your own being, not this vesselthat's doing these other things.
I will always remember that.
having an experience where Ijust didn't really feel seen
because, you know, I had someissues with healing after having
(24:57):
Avery and ended up needing tohave a medical procedure to sort
of correct that.
And I remember sitting in theOB's office and talking to him
about this.
And he said to me, don't worry,it will not affect your ability
to have more children.
And it was just reallyfascinating to me in that moment
of, A, you are not meeting mewhere I am and like thinking
(25:21):
about the headspace I'm in.
And B, that's not my onlypriority as a human being.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Yeah.
And I'm assuming you didn't askany questions, you know, asking,
well, this impacts my ability tohave future children.
It was just like thisvoluntarily given information.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess.
To your point, what do you thinkproviders maybe need to hear
(25:50):
about giving care to postpartumwomen?
What do you think is the missingpiece there?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Yeah, so I always try to give my colleagues the
benefit of the doubt because Ireally feel like one of the
biggest constraints in being agood, empathetic medical
provider is time.
And I feel like to have any ofthese conversations and do a
(26:19):
good job, we need longer visits.
And so I always try to give themthat grace of saying, I think in
a 20-minute appointment, it'sreally hard to get down to these
things.
But I really feel like it's allabout open-ended questions.
You know, it's like getting, youhave to ask your checkbox
questions.
(26:40):
And And either before or afterthat, just really looking the
person in the eye and saying,how are you doing?
You know, is there anythingyou're struggling with that you
want to talk about today?
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
Yeah.
And I think even framing it thatway, I think would be really
helpful because I, again,recalling my appointments, I
just feel like, do you have anyquestions?
Like, well, nothing's coming tomind.
I didn't prepare a list ofquestions.
Right.
But are you struggling withanything?
Is there any, you know...
support that you need.
(27:11):
I think just even wording it alittle bit differently could
provide or elicit like a lotmore information for the
provider to have so they couldgive recommendations or
referrals or what have you, evenif they only have that 20
minutes.
Because I know how the insuranceworld works as a provider who
offers, you know, insurance.
(27:31):
But yeah, just the wording ofthe question could still
accomplish a different things inthe 20 minute time limit that
they have.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yes, I think so.
And again, like I had thebenefit of doing home visits.
And so I was I was given an hourto do that visit.
And I think part of my so thatwas part of my strategy was just
trying to ask open endedquestions and give women, you
know, the space to talk aboutwhat they were going through.
(28:05):
But I also just tried to hitupon, you know, the common
things that women in thepostpartum period are dealing
with, you know, so kind of askfairly blunt questions about,
you know, like, how are yourbreasts feeling?
Are you having any trouble goingto the bathroom?
Just really trying to addressany things that are really
simple, but make such adifference in how people feel.
(28:26):
And so that's where I reallyfeel that routine OB care isn't
necessarily meeting all theneeds of women in this
postpartum period.
You know, typically after youhave a baby, you have some sort
of medical visit before youleave the hospital and then
(28:47):
really no care until you go toyour six-week appointment.
And even that, you know, has tofit in that box of typically a
fairly short visit where youmight not feel like you have the
time and space to talk aboutmaybe some of these other things
that are going on.
And so that's work that I reallyenjoy doing.
(29:07):
I really enjoy seeing women atany point after they've had
their baby.
You know, you don't have to waittill six weeks to see me.
And I'll talk about anything andeverything that is going on for
you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
Yeah.
Sometimes when I reflect back onthe experience, I almost wish
there was a book that they gaveme of like, OK, these are the
required appointments for you togo to.
But here are all the otheroptions.
Yes.
With a lactation consultant, youcan make an appointment with a
postpartum therapist.
You can make an appointmentwith, I don't know.
(29:43):
Public floor PT.
Yes.
Yes.
Going to one of those two.
You can make an appointment witha nurse practitioner who's going
to do a different medical examon you to make sure that you're
healing, like maybe at adifferent point besides six
weeks.
I don't know.
Just like all of the variety ofcare options, because even as a
(30:04):
therapist.
feeling like I quote-unquoteknew things as someone in the,
you know, adjacent medicalfield, I was like, what am I
supposed to do?
Right.
Yes, like, I don't know, like apamphlet or a roadmap or some
sort of something, even if youonly have 20 minutes, a good
handout could hurt you a lot, Ithink.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Yes, I really like that idea because I think there
are a lot of us that You know,often it's rooted in our own
experience that we want to offersomething different than what we
experienced.
And I think it would be reallynice if there were like there
were comprehensive resources of,OK, so, you know, this is what
(30:47):
you'll get in our office.
And these are all the otherthings that can fill in the gaps
if you feel like you have needsin these other areas.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Yeah, for sure.
Even for myself, I learned aboutpostpartum international work.
I don't know, seven to eightmonths postpartum.
That could have been on somepamphlet handed to me at some
appointment way sooner before.
I was just Googling on theinternet, more support.
(31:14):
And the internet could be adangerous place because you
could get widely differentopinions.
So giving that information froma trusted medical professional,
I think, could just go a longway.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
Yeah, I agree.
And I think it also justnormalizes...
You know, the vast experiencethat women can have, the vast
challenges that women canexperience in that time.
So you don't wonder why you'restruggling.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah, it really normalizes it to say that
there's a lot of different pathsand options for support and
treatment.
Yeah.
I feel like we have a lot ofwork to do when it comes to
postpartum care.
Yeah, I guess are there otherways that you feel like
postpartum care could beimproved that your work is
(32:02):
trying to fill in the gaps?
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
I mean, I think that that is my main thought and my
sort of main goal is that womenfeel heard and supported at
whatever point in theirpostpartum journey they're at.
So I feel like it's partially...
Let's give women more resourcesto reach out at any point,
(32:27):
whether it's the day they getback from the hospital or six
months after they have theirbaby, because we know that it
takes much longer than those sixweeks to fully recover.
So I feel like that's part of itis it's like, let's extend that
timeline.
Let's give women access tosupport at any moment that they
need it.
And then let's truly offercomprehensive care of addressing
(32:51):
anything that somebody is goingthrough in that time, not just
like the typical checkboxes.
So that's it for me.
And, you know, like I mentioned,just really giving women the
opportunity to tell their storyand share whatever they want to
talk about.
You know, I'm sure you know inyour work that for a lot of
women, having the chance to talkabout their birth story in, you
(33:14):
know, whatever way they want tocan really feel healing.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
And I even want to reflect something on you said
early on, like only uponreflection, did you feel like
your experience would change?
I think even labeling thatearlier on for people could be
so validating.
(33:51):
Or like they actually had likemedical complications that led
to further issues that requiredmore medical procedures going
forward.
Yeah, I don't I wish there wassome sort of social worker or
something that could be there inthe hospital or in the first six
(34:13):
weeks that is like saying like,oh, do your experience change?
you know, sounds like it'straumatic.
Do you feel like it wastraumatic?
Then almost like months later,potentially coming across this
idea of, oh, birth trauma,that's a thing.
That's probably what Iexperienced.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Right.
No, I think you're absolutelyright on.
I think that would really helpwith the healing because I think
you can kind of just be sittingthere and not feel right, but
not know why.
And because you don't know why,it's hard to access support
around that.
And I feel like it kind of goesback to what we hit upon
(34:51):
earlier, which is that I thinkthe goals of postpartum care
need to shift.
And so we need to have a higherexpectation for the care that we
offer women so that we're notonly looking for
life-threatening complicationsafter birth, and making sure
(35:12):
that the baby is safe to go homewith mom.
I really feel like that's thelevel of mental health screening
that we're doing now is, is thebaby safe?
And that is a pretty low bar.
And so, you know, we need toworry about not only is the mom
safe, but is the mom okay?
Like, does she feel likeherself?
(35:35):
And so I think part of that isgetting out what you're saying
is asking moms how they'refeeling about their birth
experience and if they feel likethey need support in processing
that and support in processingthat earlier rather than later.
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah.
And I know this podcast is aboutwomen, so I don't want to
detract from that by bringingthis up.
But I even think like,especially depending on the
family structure, like checkingin with a partner or whether
that be a a male partner, afemale partner, or a non-binary
(36:09):
partner, what have you, how istheir experience?
Because obviously a role is sopivotal in supporting the
birthing person, right?
What about the check-in forthose people?
How are you doing supportingsomeone who just went through
something so life-altering thattheir whole body and mind and
experience day-to-day hasshifted?
I don't know.
(36:29):
That's a whole nother podcast,probably.
But that just like came to mymind of what are gaps that are
missing is checking in with thatperson so they can support the
birthing person or and evensupport themselves.
I'm not saying that they don'tneed support, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Right.
No, I mean, paratoid is atransformation for everyone.
Right.
Somebody should, you know, atleast check in on that person.
Yeah, at a bare minimum.
(37:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
I'm curious if you'd like toshare with people how they can
reach out to you and connectwith you to hopefully seek your
services.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yes.
So...
Yeah, I am going into the springand summer.
I'm looking to grow my impact onhelping moms with lactation
support and connecting with momsthat want a more comprehensive
model of care in that postpartumtime.
So really the best way to findme is on my website, which,
funny enough, I don't have infront of me, but I believe it's
(37:47):
www.feedandslourishdenver.com.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, and all the information will be in the show
notes too, so you don't have towrite that down just as a
reminder.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on today.
I really appreciate you takingtime to talk with us.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Thank you, Stephanie.
I was really honored toparticipate in your podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again
and share with other people soother people can continue to
listen to Redefining Us and wecan get into more listeners
ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
(38:30):
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(39:08):
So you can be in the know withall the things that are
happening in the Redefining Uscommunity.
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
Welcome to Redefining Us, where we explore
sexuality, identity, motherhood,and mental health to help women
thrive authentically.
Let's break free from roles thatlimit us and create a life where
you can truly be yourself.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
This is Stephanie Contrahera,licensed professional counselor,
(00:21):
and today I have with me...
Valena Frohart, who is a medicalprovider and lactation
consultant and the owner of Feedand Flourish in Denver,
Colorado.
She loves helping moms andbabies learn to breastfeed and
supporting women in theirrecovery after birth.
Valena offers lactation visitsduring pregnancy to prepare for
(00:41):
breastfeeding and lactationvisits after baby arrives and
postpartum home visits to ensureboth mom and baby receive
ongoing support during thecritical early weeks.
As a physician's assistant withexperience So thank you so much
(01:09):
for joining us today.
Yeah, thank you for having me,Stephanie.
Yes, of course.
So yeah, let's just jump rightin.
Why don't you share with me andthe audience why you decided to
become a lactation consultant?
(01:30):
Because I'm pretty sure you werea physician assistant first from
what I remember reading on yourwebsite.
So yeah, I'd love to hear yourbackstory and why you've made
this transition.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I always say that my sonAvery is my why.
And So I gave birth to him about10 years ago.
And honestly, it really knockedthe wind out of me, just that
process of giving birth andhaving a new human to take care
of.
And so now I just feel like sortof gradually going through that
(02:05):
process, it really led me tokind of a new passion for
wanting to support moms in thatprocess of finding themselves
navigating that transition andcatching their breath.
And so really for me, thatprocess came through lactation
support.
So, you know, I was sitting daysafter I had my baby, reeling in
(02:28):
shell shock from what I nowrecognize as a traumatic birth
and sitting in a body that kindof felt like it had some parts
broken.
And every time I went to feed mybaby, it was just excruciatingly
painful.
And so having to do that, youknow, eight plus times a day was
really hard.
And so I was living inWashington at the time, and I
(02:51):
was planning a trip to come backto Denver.
And a cousin of mine said, youknow, you should really see this
lactation consultant.
She changed everything for me.
And so I made an appointmentduring our trip.
And I'll be honest, sitting infront of her was the first time
in that post-birth time that Ifelt like somebody had really
(03:11):
listened to me and heard me.
And so that first, I think, waslike a first step in sort of
feeling better.
And then she was the firstperson that was able to make
feeding not painful for me.
And so I really felt like thetides were shifting.
And I felt like through thatprocess, for the first time,
(03:35):
motherhood felt doable.
And I started to find my footingas a mother in that appointment.
And so it really spurred in me apassion to be on the other side
of that table and to help momsin that process.
And hopefully, you know, Iacknowledge that not all women
kind of find their footing inmotherhood through
(03:58):
breastfeeding.
But for me, that was my journey.
And so I hope to help other momsin that way.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Yeah, I think early stages of motherhood, everything
is brand new.
And so having someone to guideyou on something that is a,
what's a good word, like aoption that a lot of women tend
to take, which is breastfeeding,I think is a really important
role.
I know in my postpartumexperience, going to a lactation
(04:27):
consultant was really helpfulbecause I had no idea what I was
signing myself up for withplanning to breastfeed or Really
knowing like how it's supposedto work or how often to do
anything.
Yeah.
So it's like you kind of feellike a fish out of water.
So having a guide in thatcritical moment, I think, is
really valuable for a lot ofwomen.
(04:48):
Yes.
What do you think is reallyimportant for women to hear
about breastfeeding and abouttheir journey?
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
I really like there's a lactation consultant
in town that says breastfeedingis innate and it's learned.
And I love that because I feelit highlights the piece that
you're not supposed to knoweverything the moment your baby
is born.
And so even if you are, youknow, hitting bumps in the road
(05:18):
or got off to a rocky start, itis something that with good
support can get better.
And as lactation consultants, wewant to meet you where you are
and we want to help you withyour goals.
So whatever you want yourfeeding journey to look like, we
want to support you in that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Yeah, I think that's so interesting.
If I would have heard thatpotentially before, I think that
would have been a lot lessstress because I heard from a
lot of women like, oh, it's justso natural.
And they're just like, kind oflike figure it out.
And You know, your baby knowswhat to do.
I'm like, well, I have no ideawhat to do, even if she knows
what to do.
I don't have a clue.
Yes.
(05:56):
Yes.
So, yeah, I think that wouldhave been a really helpful thing
to hear.
Oh, you actually have to learnthis.
You're just not going to figureit out on your own.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Right, right.
And I don't remember the detailsabout this, but I read, you
know, some study that ananthropologist did that was
trying to figure out what's thedifference between the
breastfeeding rates in differentcountries.
And of course, there's like allkinds of factors, you know,
including support for familiesin the postpartum period.
And there's lots of things tolook at there.
But kind of their hypothesis wasthat Women saw, growing up, saw
(06:33):
so many people breastfeedingthat they just had more of a
knowledge base when they hadtheir child.
And what they found was actuallythat was not the case.
What it had to do with is thatthere was more generational
support.
So there were more grandmothersaround and siblings around and
aunts around after the baby wasborn to help fill in those gaps,
(06:54):
to help learn that process.
And so I find that to be reallyfascinating of, you know, I
think in our country, theexperience varies a lot from
family to family.
But in a lot of cases, we don'thave a lot of generational
support.
And so I feel like that's wherewe as lactation consultants can
kind of fill in the gaps of whatin some places is generational
(07:16):
knowledge.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I know there's this termor phrase that people say like
fed is best.
And so I think in my earlyexperience, especially since My
mother-in-law and my mother bothused formula.
I don't know if that was like athing that people just did in
the late 80s and there wasn't asmuch breastfeeding.
I'd love to, never actuallylooked into the history of that,
(07:38):
but I'd be curious if there'sjust like these waves of
differences in generations.
But yeah, both of them werelike, well, just make sure she
eats.
That is best.
I'm like, yeah, but I can't getany tips or hints from you
about, right, do this since yourexperience was different with
breastfeeding.
feeding formula.
(07:59):
Instead of breastfeeding, Idon't think there's anything
wrong with feeding formula toanyone.
But I think just getting...
Yeah, there wasn't thatgenerational knowledge that
you're talking about.
And it was like a new piece forme.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Right.
Yeah.
No, and I think a lot of us havehad that experience in our
generation.
And I think You know, definitelysome of us were breastfed, but I
was in a similar situation wheremost of the information my mom
passed down to me was like, oh,breastfeeding hurt.
You guys bit me.
And so I think what's hard inthat and, you know, obviously
(08:35):
unintentional, but not only didsome of us not get helpful
practical information, but wemay have also gotten sort of
negative history about whatbreastfeeding is.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (08:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
And that I, again, I would love to hear what your
thoughts are.
I'm assuming if someone isexperiencing being bitten, there
are things that you can do tokind of encourage your child to
not bite you or to interruptthat behavior in some way to
continue the breastfeedingprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yes, yes.
So I loved it.
My mentor really looked at itfrom kind of an anthropological
lens, an evolutionary lens.
Thank you so much.
(09:42):
what she would always say islet's be curious about that.
And so I really appreciated thatbecause it kind of highlights
that's likely not a choice.
That's likely a behavior, like acompensatory behavior.
And so to your point, yes,there's typically a reason that
they are abiding and there'stypically a root cause of that
(10:02):
that can be addressed andapproved.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you're working with womenwho maybe have issues with their
baby having like tongue ties andthings like that.
Is that something that lactationconsultants are also able to
pick up on?
Or is that something given moreto like doctors or dentists and
things like that?
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, that's a really interesting issue.
So it's definitely acontroversial topic in
healthcare and in lactation.
Right now and probably for thelast five or 10 years.
And so what I always say, justlike in any conversation about
it, is I feel like it'scontroversial because it's
(10:47):
complex and we don't knoweverything about it.
So we're still trying to learnabout that topic and about which
babies benefit from having thattongue tie procedure.
So that's, I think, the lensthat I always like to look at it
through is like humility of, youknow, as medical providers and
as lactation consultants, wedon't know everything.
(11:08):
We're still learning about it.
But kind of officially,lactation consultants, it's not
within our scope to diagnosetongue tie.
So since I sit in this uniqueplace of also being a medical
provider, being a physicianassistant, I can make that
diagnosis and makerecommendations around that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Okay.
UNKNOWN (11:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And my approach is always, again, I try to approach
it with curiosity.
So if I see a baby that all ofthe low-hanging fruit solutions
have not improved whatever theproblem is, I think more deeply
about oral function.
And so in general, that categoryjust means how the mouse is
(11:51):
working, right?
But a component of that iswhether there is tight tissue.
So whether there's either atongue tie, so that soft tissue
that connects the tongue to theroof of the mouth is too tight
and not allowing the mouth tofunction.
But there's other components tothat.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, you know, atleast from my very anecdotal
experience of being a mom andlistening to other moms, there
tends to be a lot of, I don'twant to use the word hysteria
because I feel like that's toostrong, but a lot of, oh my
gosh, does my baby have a tonguetie?
Like is that what's preventingthem from breastfeeding?
And it almost becomes thisanxious spiral that some women
(12:33):
tend to find themselves inbecause, you know, breastfeeding
is highly encouraged from a lotof medical professionals.
And so it Yeah, it becomes thispoint of stress and questioning
of whether or not it's this orwhether or not it's that.
And I'm assuming people thatcome work with you, you're able
to help them walk through thatrather than like sit in all of
(12:54):
these unknown questions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Yes, I definitely try to help them feel supported
in that.
Like, you know, first I try tosort of like I did A moment ago,
sort of frame the debate so thatthey recognize that if they
Google this, they will findextremely polarizing information
on either side.
And so I always want people toknow that because I never want
them to sort of feel like.
(13:18):
feel like they were tricked orthat they somehow ended up on
one side of the fence with youknow people that you know only
believe one thing because Ithink like lots of things in
life it's more nuanced you knowevery baby doesn't have a tongue
tie and it's not that no babyhas a tongue tie somewhere in
the middle so yes I do try tohelp them feel supported in that
and feel supported in theiroptions but yeah I think part of
(13:42):
it for me is that I feel likesometimes I mainstream medical
appointments ask, you know, veryquick questions about feeding.
And so I think sometimes we missthe deeper feeding issues unless
you truly ask those questions.
And so I'm also working as apediatric provider in a clinic.
(14:05):
And I love that in thispractice, they really do ask how
breastfeeding is going.
I feel like a lot of places willjust ask, you know, okay, are
you feeding your baby formula orbreast milk?
How often are you feeding?
It's kind of left at that.
And so I feel like that's wherethe complexity of some of these
issues gets fleshed out is whenyou really listen to women and
(14:27):
their feeding experience, youstart to realize that there's
more going on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
Yeah, this is making me think of my pediatrician
early on.
They did ask that question thatyou just said, feeding formula
or breastfeeding, however youfeed them.
And I remember feeling like Ishould say something right now
because she's not asking me, butI feel like I need to say
something.
And, you know, I brought myconcern up and she's like, I
(14:52):
think that's probably best leftfor a lactation consultant.
Maybe you should go see one.
And so that's what I ended updoing.
But yeah, my experience washaving an oversupply, which I
know is I'm sure some people whohave undersupply would probably
like quote unquote kill for thatexperience, but I would say it
was not pleasant when you've hadan oversupply.
(15:14):
And I oftentimes think to myselflike, oh man, maybe I should
have gone the extra mile andhired individual lactation
consultant because I had onlygone to groups like that were
provided at the hospital,
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
which
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
I think were helpful, but Potentially a
one-on-one would have been evenmore beneficial.
I'm kind of curious of yourthoughts of the difference
between like a group setting andan individual setting and what
someone might benefit to go theextra step and get an individual
appointment or to go outside ofmaybe what the hospital just
(15:49):
generally provides.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting
question.
And so I think groups are rundifferently, but I would say in
general, you know, the groupsthat I've been a part of and
ran, I feel like are best forthe social connection of being
around, you know, other peoplewho are in a similar state of
(16:13):
life to you and checking yourbaby's weight.
So you can usually get an ideaof how much they're eating and
feeding because they'll beweighed before feeding.
group and then afterward.
And then maybe troubleshootingpretty simple things, but I
think of it more as like what wewould call in medicine
anticipatory guidance.
(16:34):
So more like what's the normalexperience?
I have a newborn baby.
Approximately how many timesshould I be breastfeeding it in
a day?
I think that groups maybe areless tailored to problem-solving
individual challenges.
And so I think sometimes theycan be met, again, if it more
(16:55):
falls in that realm ofanticipatory guidance of like,
okay, you're just doingsomething like a little bit
incorrectly and we can help youwith sort of the standard
recommendations.
But if it's truly a morechallenging issue or an issue
that's more individual for you,I think a one-on-one lactation
appointment is often the mosthelpful route to go.
(17:17):
I think partially just because,you know, a lot of these Feeding
issues are also emotional and,you know, all of those things.
So I think it's also just likereally nice to talk about it in
a safe space with one person.
And then we can also, you know,typically lactation visits are
60 to 90 minutes.
So it's a long time to sort oftroubleshoot your specific
(17:42):
issue.
and have the opportunity for thelactation consultant to get a
detailed history, get detailedinformation about what's
happening, talk about what yourgoals are, and then watch a full
feed.
So to be able to give thatinsight during the feed.
And then to your point aboutwhether going back to the
hospital or seeking out aprivate lactation consultant, I
(18:06):
think hospital lactationconsultants are great.
And I think that the majority ofwhat they do is help in those
first 24 to 48 hours withbreastfeeding.
So I kind of feel like that'stheir real expertise.
And then after that period oftime, I feel like you've
(18:28):
somewhat graduated.
That's kind of the way I explainit to families that I've seen.
So you can certainly go back tosee a hospital lactation
consultant.
But I feel like those of us thatdo that post-hospital discharge
time, you know, that's what wespecialize in.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
Yeah.
And you wouldn't bring your babyback to the hospital for their
pediatrician appointment.
You'd go to, like, a specializedpediatrician.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So I know hospital lactationconsultants are great and offer
that service.
And so, you know, I encouragepeople to do what they're most
comfortable with, but that'skind of the lens that I think of
it through.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
That and...
If I were to reflect back, likejust even the availability of
making like an individualizedappointment would have been
beneficial for my life because Ifound like the time frame of the
group often like conflicted withsomething else going on.
So like having it be on yourtime in this one-on-one
(19:26):
specialized way, it could bereally beneficial for a person's
experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just reflecting out loudhere.
I think the hospital lactationconsultants did offer me a
one-on-one thing.
But in my early postpartumbrain, I was like, I'm probably
just going to be a burden.
My baby's fed.
(19:47):
Like, it's fine.
I'm just the one having theexperience.
She's, like, thriving.
Like, no issues.
I'm the one that's struggling.
Like, maybe this isn't somethingfor a lactation consultant to
help me with.
was what my brain was saying.
And now upon reflection,actually, it probably would have
been really helpful to go to aone-on-one visit.
(20:08):
So I'm curious if you couldspeak to that as far as how
would you approach someonesaying like, my baby's fine.
I'm the one that's struggling toconvince them to go over the
hump of not feeling like aburden.
That their needs are alsoimportant because I think that
kind of gets wrapped up in theearly postpartum experience and
messaging that we're given aswomen.
(20:29):
Like, oh, the baby has all ofthese appointments and the baby
is the most important person inthis dynamic.
And you're kind of just there toserve the baby.
thriving and striving.
So yeah, I'm kind of curiouswhat your thoughts are and what
you might communicate to womenin those head spaces and in that
early postpartum experience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, so Stephanie, I think that what your thought
process and your experience isvery common.
And so it was really interestingto me in one of my previous
roles as a medical provider, Idid home visits for moms and
babies within that first weekwhen they got home from the
hospital.
And what was fascinating to meabout those visits is that moms
(21:14):
would pretty much exclusivelyonly ask questions about their
baby.
And so the only way that I couldsort of elicit more information
about how the moms were doingand what they were struggling
with was to ask very directquestions about how they were
doing.
And then the whole story wouldcome out about what they were
struggling with.
(21:35):
And sometimes it was lactationrelated.
You know, sometimes it waspainful or a struggle or
stressful or any of thesethings.
But I think that happens for alot of reasons.
I think you're right.
There's cultural messaging therethat like we're there just to
take care of baby.
I think there's also a componentof there's some like tunnel
vision aspect of after you havea baby, it's just like your
(21:58):
mission to take care of thathuman being.
And so, yeah, I really encouragemoms, you know, I just kind of
think of it as, you know, if youwere doing anything else eight
to 12 times a day, you wouldreally try to pay attention to
your experience and make sure,A, it's not painful, B,
(22:19):
hopefully it's not stressful,you know, and C, ideally, it's
like a positive experience.
And so I really encourage momswomen to think about their
experience in breastfeeding.
And, you know, it's not allabout the baby's nourishment.
It needs to be about you too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, and again, I'm justsharing my personal story that
didn't kick in for me, thatthought process until seven
months.
Wow.
It would have been a verydifferent experience if I would
have thought about me beforeseven months.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
Right?
Yes.
Yes.
Well, and I kind of try to frameit for people too as like any
other injury because, you know,sometimes I'll see moms that
have a pretty obvious likenipple injury just in terms of
kind of like a scrape there or acut or a bruise.
And, you know, I try to frame itfor them of like, if you had an
(23:21):
injury anywhere else on yourbody, like you sprained your
ankle, there's no way you'd goout and run eight times a day on
your painful ankle.
And so I think there's maybe alittle bit of a disconnect for
us as women in terms of theseissues that, you know, get kind
of labeled as women's health orwomen's issues that we're
(23:42):
supposed to just push throughthem.
Whereas in any part of yourbody, that would not be the
message you would get.
And so I try to also help peoplethink of it that way of like,
let's take a step back and thinkabout this.
If this was any other part ofyour body, you would be more
gentle and you would seek outcare for how to make this
(24:03):
better.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
I'm even thinking about someclients that I have as a
therapist and I'm talking abouttheir postpartum experience and
just the deprioritization thatwomen put themselves through.
And after birth and figuring outhow to like, okay, well, like
the baby is really important.
(24:24):
And I understand that.
And I think that too.
And you also need care andattention and to be prioritized.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yes.
Yes.
And prioritized as like yourown, you know, to your point, as
your own being, not this vesselthat's doing these other things.
I will always remember that.
having an experience where Ijust didn't really feel seen
because, you know, I had someissues with healing after having
(24:57):
Avery and ended up needing tohave a medical procedure to sort
of correct that.
And I remember sitting in theOB's office and talking to him
about this.
And he said to me, don't worry,it will not affect your ability
to have more children.
And it was just reallyfascinating to me in that moment
of, A, you are not meeting mewhere I am and like thinking
(25:21):
about the headspace I'm in.
And B, that's not my onlypriority as a human being.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Yeah.
And I'm assuming you didn't askany questions, you know, asking,
well, this impacts my ability tohave future children.
It was just like thisvoluntarily given information.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess.
To your point, what do you thinkproviders maybe need to hear
(25:50):
about giving care to postpartumwomen?
What do you think is the missingpiece there?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Yeah, so I always try to give my colleagues the
benefit of the doubt because Ireally feel like one of the
biggest constraints in being agood, empathetic medical
provider is time.
And I feel like to have any ofthese conversations and do a
(26:19):
good job, we need longer visits.
And so I always try to give themthat grace of saying, I think in
a 20-minute appointment, it'sreally hard to get down to these
things.
But I really feel like it's allabout open-ended questions.
You know, it's like getting, youhave to ask your checkbox
questions.
(26:40):
And And either before or afterthat, just really looking the
person in the eye and saying,how are you doing?
You know, is there anythingyou're struggling with that you
want to talk about today?
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
Yeah.
And I think even framing it thatway, I think would be really
helpful because I, again,recalling my appointments, I
just feel like, do you have anyquestions?
Like, well, nothing's coming tomind.
I didn't prepare a list ofquestions.
Right.
But are you struggling withanything?
Is there any, you know...
support that you need.
(27:11):
I think just even wording it alittle bit differently could
provide or elicit like a lotmore information for the
provider to have so they couldgive recommendations or
referrals or what have you, evenif they only have that 20
minutes.
Because I know how the insuranceworld works as a provider who
offers, you know, insurance.
(27:31):
But yeah, just the wording ofthe question could still
accomplish a different things inthe 20 minute time limit that
they have.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yes, I think so.
And again, like I had thebenefit of doing home visits.
And so I was I was given an hourto do that visit.
And I think part of my so thatwas part of my strategy was just
trying to ask open endedquestions and give women, you
know, the space to talk aboutwhat they were going through.
(28:05):
But I also just tried to hitupon, you know, the common
things that women in thepostpartum period are dealing
with, you know, so kind of askfairly blunt questions about,
you know, like, how are yourbreasts feeling?
Are you having any trouble goingto the bathroom?
Just really trying to addressany things that are really
simple, but make such adifference in how people feel.
(28:26):
And so that's where I reallyfeel that routine OB care isn't
necessarily meeting all theneeds of women in this
postpartum period.
You know, typically after youhave a baby, you have some sort
of medical visit before youleave the hospital and then
(28:47):
really no care until you go toyour six-week appointment.
And even that, you know, has tofit in that box of typically a
fairly short visit where youmight not feel like you have the
time and space to talk aboutmaybe some of these other things
that are going on.
And so that's work that I reallyenjoy doing.
(29:07):
I really enjoy seeing women atany point after they've had
their baby.
You know, you don't have to waittill six weeks to see me.
And I'll talk about anything andeverything that is going on for
you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
Yeah.
Sometimes when I reflect back onthe experience, I almost wish
there was a book that they gaveme of like, OK, these are the
required appointments for you togo to.
But here are all the otheroptions.
Yes.
With a lactation consultant, youcan make an appointment with a
postpartum therapist.
You can make an appointmentwith, I don't know.
(29:43):
Public floor PT.
Yes.
Yes.
Going to one of those two.
You can make an appointment witha nurse practitioner who's going
to do a different medical examon you to make sure that you're
healing, like maybe at adifferent point besides six
weeks.
I don't know.
Just like all of the variety ofcare options, because even as a
(30:04):
therapist.
feeling like I quote-unquoteknew things as someone in the,
you know, adjacent medicalfield, I was like, what am I
supposed to do?
Right.
Yes, like, I don't know, like apamphlet or a roadmap or some
sort of something, even if youonly have 20 minutes, a good
handout could hurt you a lot, Ithink.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Yes, I really like that idea because I think there
are a lot of us that You know,often it's rooted in our own
experience that we want to offersomething different than what we
experienced.
And I think it would be reallynice if there were like there
were comprehensive resources of,OK, so, you know, this is what
(30:47):
you'll get in our office.
And these are all the otherthings that can fill in the gaps
if you feel like you have needsin these other areas.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Yeah, for sure.
Even for myself, I learned aboutpostpartum international work.
I don't know, seven to eightmonths postpartum.
That could have been on somepamphlet handed to me at some
appointment way sooner before.
I was just Googling on theinternet, more support.
(31:14):
And the internet could be adangerous place because you
could get widely differentopinions.
So giving that information froma trusted medical professional,
I think, could just go a longway.
SPEAKER_00 (31:26):
Yeah, I agree.
And I think it also justnormalizes...
You know, the vast experiencethat women can have, the vast
challenges that women canexperience in that time.
So you don't wonder why you'restruggling.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah, it really normalizes it to say that
there's a lot of different pathsand options for support and
treatment.
Yeah.
I feel like we have a lot ofwork to do when it comes to
postpartum care.
Yeah, I guess are there otherways that you feel like
postpartum care could beimproved that your work is
(32:02):
trying to fill in the gaps?
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
I mean, I think that that is my main thought and my
sort of main goal is that womenfeel heard and supported at
whatever point in theirpostpartum journey they're at.
So I feel like it's partially...
Let's give women more resourcesto reach out at any point,
(32:27):
whether it's the day they getback from the hospital or six
months after they have theirbaby, because we know that it
takes much longer than those sixweeks to fully recover.
So I feel like that's part of itis it's like, let's extend that
timeline.
Let's give women access tosupport at any moment that they
need it.
And then let's truly offercomprehensive care of addressing
(32:51):
anything that somebody is goingthrough in that time, not just
like the typical checkboxes.
So that's it for me.
And, you know, like I mentioned,just really giving women the
opportunity to tell their storyand share whatever they want to
talk about.
You know, I'm sure you know inyour work that for a lot of
women, having the chance to talkabout their birth story in, you
(33:14):
know, whatever way they want tocan really feel healing.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
And I even want to reflect something on you said
early on, like only uponreflection, did you feel like
your experience would change?
I think even labeling thatearlier on for people could be
so validating.
(33:51):
Or like they actually had likemedical complications that led
to further issues that requiredmore medical procedures going
forward.
Yeah, I don't I wish there wassome sort of social worker or
something that could be there inthe hospital or in the first six
(34:13):
weeks that is like saying like,oh, do your experience change?
you know, sounds like it'straumatic.
Do you feel like it wastraumatic?
Then almost like months later,potentially coming across this
idea of, oh, birth trauma,that's a thing.
That's probably what Iexperienced.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Right.
No, I think you're absolutelyright on.
I think that would really helpwith the healing because I think
you can kind of just be sittingthere and not feel right, but
not know why.
And because you don't know why,it's hard to access support
around that.
And I feel like it kind of goesback to what we hit upon
(34:51):
earlier, which is that I thinkthe goals of postpartum care
need to shift.
And so we need to have a higherexpectation for the care that we
offer women so that we're notonly looking for
life-threatening complicationsafter birth, and making sure
(35:12):
that the baby is safe to go homewith mom.
I really feel like that's thelevel of mental health screening
that we're doing now is, is thebaby safe?
And that is a pretty low bar.
And so, you know, we need toworry about not only is the mom
safe, but is the mom okay?
Like, does she feel likeherself?
(35:35):
And so I think part of that isgetting out what you're saying
is asking moms how they'refeeling about their birth
experience and if they feel likethey need support in processing
that and support in processingthat earlier rather than later.
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah.
And I know this podcast is aboutwomen, so I don't want to
detract from that by bringingthis up.
But I even think like,especially depending on the
family structure, like checkingin with a partner or whether
that be a a male partner, afemale partner, or a non-binary
(36:09):
partner, what have you, how istheir experience?
Because obviously a role is sopivotal in supporting the
birthing person, right?
What about the check-in forthose people?
How are you doing supportingsomeone who just went through
something so life-altering thattheir whole body and mind and
experience day-to-day hasshifted?
I don't know.
(36:29):
That's a whole nother podcast,probably.
But that just like came to mymind of what are gaps that are
missing is checking in with thatperson so they can support the
birthing person or and evensupport themselves.
I'm not saying that they don'tneed support, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:43):
Right.
No, I mean, paratoid is atransformation for everyone.
Right.
Somebody should, you know, atleast check in on that person.
Yeah, at a bare minimum.
(37:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
I'm curious if you'd like toshare with people how they can
reach out to you and connectwith you to hopefully seek your
services.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yes.
So...
Yeah, I am going into the springand summer.
I'm looking to grow my impact onhelping moms with lactation
support and connecting with momsthat want a more comprehensive
model of care in that postpartumtime.
So really the best way to findme is on my website, which,
funny enough, I don't have infront of me, but I believe it's
(37:47):
www.feedandslourishdenver.com.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
Yeah, and all the information will be in the show
notes too, so you don't have towrite that down just as a
reminder.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on today.
I really appreciate you takingtime to talk with us.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Thank you, Stephanie.
I was really honored toparticipate in your podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again
and share with other people soother people can continue to
listen to Redefining Us and wecan get into more listeners
ears.
If you follow us or subscribe orleave a comment or review,
that'd be greatly helpful forother people to find us and also
(38:30):
just for me to get somefeedback.
What do you guys want to hear mesay?
What do you women care abouthearing?
I'm totally open to Thank you somuch for joining us today.
(39:08):
So you can be in the know withall the things that are
happening in the Redefining Uscommunity.
Once again, thank you so muchfor listening and keep being
awesome.
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