December 5, 2024 • 40 mins
Abuse can look many different ways, both overt and not. Our guest, Sybil Cummin, MA, LPC, ACS, shares her evolution working as a play therapist with children in contentious divorces to uncovering the often-overlooked dynamics of abuse dismissed by the systems at play. Our conversation lays bare the realities of narcissistic abuse, domestic violence, and the systemic gaps within family courts.
Sybil highlights the critical role of community, connection, and safety planning in the journey toward healing for anyone who's endured any amount of harm. We talk about how abuse can look many different ways and break the stereotypes that are most often portrayed. We delve into the struggles survivors endure—recognizing coercive control, overcoming post-separation abuse, and reclaiming a sense of self.
If you know someone who's suffering from abuse, or that's you yourself, or if you're a professional who stands survivors, this episode offers clarity, practical guidance, and a steadfast reminder: recovery is possible, and no one walks this path alone.
Connect with Sybil:
https://www.risingbeyondpc.com
https://instagram.com/risingbeyondpc
https://www.risingbeyondpc.com/podcasts
About Sybil: Sybil is a Licensed Professional Counselor who has specialized in working with victims and survivors of narcissistic abuse and domestic violence for the last decade, including the child victims in these families. She owns a small group therapy practice in Colorado and after witnessing the constant ethical issues survivors experience in the family court system trying to protect their children she created Rising Beyond Power and Control (often referred to as The Rising Beyond Community) to help close the gaps in support for this population. Sybil hosts The Rising Beyond Podcast and is active in legislative changes in Colorado for family court reform.
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Would you like to chat more about this episode's topic? I would love to continue our conversation over on Instagram! @wellmindedcounseling
I wrote a book! Becoming Mommy: Aligning with yourself and finding your voice during pregnancy and motherhood, available at all major retailers - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DZT9P3RB?ref=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&social_share=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_KFT90ZBDS48FDGG6DH5X&bestFormat=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
What I've really seen, this is why I started the
Rising Beyond community, isthat, you know, in my therapy
practice, I would have reallysimilar cases.
And the cases in which thesurvivor had a pretty strong,
healthy support system versusthe person who had almost
identical case, very similarabuse, the ones that do not have
(00:22):
safe people in their world, theydon't have a support network,
the length of time it takes themto heal is astronomically
longer.
Years later, longer.
And I was seeing this over andover.
And so that importance ofhealing within connection with
others, healing in a communitywas so apparent because it was
(00:43):
like, well, what's wrong withthis person?
They're not healing.
Is it me?
Is the therapist?
Is it them?
And no, it's none of the above.
It was the lack of connectionswith others.
And for survivors, that is thescariest thing to do is to
connect with others.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrera, licensed professionalcounselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
how we balance everything, howwe grow, how we be more
authentically us and figuringout who we are through the
(01:24):
transitions of life, whetherthat be motherhood, success,
relationships, and all thingsthat have happened in women's
lives, because it's definitelynot a linear journey.
And I think by talking about itand normalizing it and
validating, we can all risetogether and be the women that
we were meant to be.
(01:44):
So keep tuning in.
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieControhera, licensed
professional counselor.
And today I have with me SybilCummins, who specializes in
(02:08):
working with survivors and theirchildren from narcissistic
abuse.
So thank you so much for joiningus.
And yeah, welcome.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (02:20):
so let's just dive in.
What kind of inspires you to dothis work and why are you so
passionate about continuingworking with this population?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Yeah, so I started from a different way than a lot
of the advocates and therapiststhat work in this field of
narcissistic abuse and domesticviolence and that I'm not a
survivor of.
And so I started at it from...
working with the kids.
And I would see these familydynamics, and they were always
(02:52):
deemed, air quotes, highconflict divorce families.
And what I really saw was therewas abuse in these families.
And there was a very specifictype of abuse.
One of the partners would havetraits of narcissism.
So the reason I becamepassionate about it is because
(03:12):
that I was noticing specificallythat our family court system was
not keeping kids safe.
And they didn't actually seem tocare that they're not keeping
kids safe.
And that is ridiculous, right?
I didn't understand it.
I couldn't understand that.
And so if I don't understandsomething, I just dive in.
I just go down the rabbit holetrying to figure things out.
(03:36):
And so I really saw the dynamicswithin our larger systems that
were happening.
how protective parents, and Iwork mostly with moms.
I do work with some males in ourpractice, but in a community
that I run, it's specificallyfor women.
And I just could not wrap myhead around how horrible these
(03:58):
protective moms are treated.
And so in order to help thekiddos, I also need to help the
protective parents in thesesituations.
And so that's really how I gotinvolved is to help families be
safe in a system where they'renot gonna get the support that
they need.
(04:18):
Yeah, I
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
imagine it's really both devastating and raging when
you consider that the courtsystem doesn't do a lot to
protect the families in thesecases.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Yeah, and there's this belief, right?
That, okay, I'm gonna leave thisrelationship and it's all gonna
be better And I'm going to besafer.
And there are these people inplace to help me and my child.
And a lot of the people that areput in place to do that, that's
actually not their role.
That's supposed to be theirrole.
And that's not what happens.
(04:54):
So
SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
it's almost like this false sense of security
that a lot of maybe women enterinto when they decide to leave
the relationship.
And it turns out that it's maybejust more of the same.
It sounds like.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, it's like.
The abuse looks differentbecause maybe their partner
doesn't have access to them inthe hall.
Maybe they've left.
But they will use these othermethods and other ways in the
system to continue to abuse.
And what's sad is so many of thewomen and men that I've worked
with actually don't even knowthat they are being abused.
(05:30):
Because the belief that is outthere, the myths that are out
there is that domestic violenceand abuse is hitting.
or throwing things or choking,that is domestic violence.
And that's actually not all ofdomestic violence.
And so they don't evenunderstand a lot of times that
they are being abused because itis the more coercive control
(05:54):
type behaviors that arehappening.
SPEAKER_02 (05:57):
Yeah.
I know a lot of times in mypractice when I'm giving
supervision to other clients, ornot other clients, other
supervisees who work with moreof this population, Even just
identifying that they're beingabused can be really shocking to
the client that you're workingwith.
It's like, what do you know?
They're not hitting me or no,they're not doing this.
(06:19):
But yeah, if they're controllingyour money, controlling the way
that you parent, controllingwhen you leave the house or, you
know, have an opinion aboutliterally everything that you do
and try to convince you to dosomething different or to do it
the way that they want to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:35):
Yeah.
And isolation is probably one ofthe most common and detrimental
tactics of an abuser.
And so, yeah, they don'tunderstand they've been abused
because it doesn't fit thestereotype of abuse and they
don't fit the stereotype of avictim.
Right.
And this is geographicdifferences.
(06:56):
But here in Colorado, I wouldsay the stereotypical victim of
domestic violence is a A lowincome, low education woman, you
know, many children, blue collarhusband comes home, he drinks a
beer and he beats her.
And that is not even remotelyclose.
(07:17):
Like, can that happen?
Yes, sure.
But that's not what it lookslike.
Unfortunately, narcissisticabuse, domestic violence, they
don't discriminate.
So it doesn't matter how muchmoney you earn, how much
education you have, where youlive.
If you have children or don'thave children, it is possible.
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
Yeah, I think that's really important for people to
be aware of is that it couldhappen at any socioeconomic
status or any demographic.
It doesn't look just one way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And so when they first a lot oftimes get that understanding or
it's written on paper or atherapist suggests it or
something like that, it isshocking.
A lot of them don't want tobelieve that because they have
these ideas about what thatmeans about them.
And it actually means nothingabout you.
It means that you chose someonewho chose to abuse you.
(08:10):
That's what it means.
And so taking away some of thatshame and that guilt and the
false responsibility that theyput on you Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Absolutely.
And then they've been told thatit's all their fault in
different ways, either throughgaslighting or overt behaviors
or statements.
And so over time, you start tobelieve it.
If you do have a history in yourfamily of origin, and it doesn't
have to be abuse in your familyof origin, but there's a history
of people pleasing to stay safe,taking ownership of things that
(09:08):
are not yours, you're morelikely to accept that
responsibility for it.
And then, yeah, when you havekiddos, all you want to do is
you want to keep them safe andtake care of them.
And you're put in a positionpotentially where they're not
safe.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
yeah.
So I know you do a lot of workwith the survivors, both in the
court system as well as in thetherapy office.
I'm curious, does your workprimarily focus on
identification and ways to staysafe?
Or what other things are youworking on with these people?
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Yeah, so there's just a constant assessment of
safety throughout the wholeprocess because unfortunately,
harm can come, physical harm cancome at any time.
And I don't ever say that toscare people.
And it's just something to bereally aware of that they may
have never been physical withyou before and it can happen.
(10:05):
So yes, I work with, you know,on that safety piece and keeping
people safe.
And the more fun part, of my jobis working with survivors to
learn how to work in that worldbecause there is if you share
children with your abuser younine times out of ten are going
(10:27):
to have to have contact withthem and so how do you live with
that and keep that contact andstay healthy and mentally
healthy at the same time that'sreally difficult so it is it's
like that healing from thetrauma relearning how to trust
yourself relearning how toconnect with other people
(10:48):
especially if there's thatisolation you have no trust in
your you know trust detectorbecause you trusted this person
who said they were your soulmateright and you truly believed it
you you did believe it and youlove this person you loved this
person and to learn that thatwas a scam and they didn't Yeah.
(11:32):
And so those are the much morefun things to work on than
safety and family court.
But we do them in tandem becauseyou can't really do one without
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (11:43):
Yeah, I'm kind of getting the sense that even if
someone's in the midst of thetrauma, it might be harder to
work on that.
But hopefully when thingsstabilize even a small
percentage, some of thatempowerment, redefining who they
are outside of the relationship,how they can reconnect with
(12:04):
their community is stillimportant to be doing at the
same time.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Yeah.
And what I've really seen, thisis why I started the Rising
Beyond Community, is that, youknow, in my prep, this is my
therapy practice, I would havereally similar cases.
And the cases in which theperson, the survivor had a
pretty strong, healthy supportsystem, versus the person who
had almost identical case,right?
(12:32):
Very similar abuse.
The ones that do not have safepeople in their world, they
don't have a support network,the length of time it takes them
to heal is astronomicallylonger.
And so years longer.
And so I was seeing this overand over again.
And so that importance ofhealing within connection with
(12:56):
others, healing in a communitywas so apparent because it was
like, well, what's wrong withthis person?
They're not healing.
Is it me?
Is the therapist?
Is it them?
And no, it's none of the above.
It was the lack of connectionswith others.
And so that piece of it isreally important.
(13:18):
And for survivors, that is thescariest thing to do is to
connect with others.
SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
Well, yeah, it takes a certain level of
vulnerability, I imagine, afterhaving, again, going back to
that trust piece, like beingbetrayed, trying to open
themselves up again to acommunity is probably very
scary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And most of the time they'vetried to reach out to people and
the responses have been harmful.
And so they've tried to maybeshare with a friend about the
crazy making stuff That's beengoing on in their relationship.
And the response is, wow, Ican't even believe that.
(13:58):
He's always been so nice.
SPEAKER_03 (14:01):
Yeah, dismissive.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
So the response is like, no, actually, see, you're
still the crazy one.
Nope, we don't believe you.
And so there's this sense of Ican't reach out to anybody
because I won't be believed.
Law enforcement doesn't believeif there is not a bruise on you.
there's not a scratch lawenforcement's not really that
helpful and doesn't believe infamily court it's he said she
(14:25):
said they believe that it'salways two-party conflict when
it's not and so yeah that is soscary to trust someone with your
story and know that they willhold it and they will believe
you and they're not going toshame you for what you've been
through that's really scary yeahWell,
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
narcissists or people who have narcissistic
traits tend to be really good atmasking and having a lot of
charisma and being one way infront of others and another way
behind closed doors.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Yep.
Yeah.
And so it is crazy makingbecause everyone around them
sees, you know, the amazing,caring dad or partner.
And it's all done on purpose.
Like it's willful, which issuper gross to think about that
all the things that they've doneis not because of childhood
(15:21):
trauma.
There's an element of that, butit's not the reason.
It's not because they're analcoholic.
It's not these reasons.
It is willful.
It is done on purpose to gettheir needs met.
SPEAKER_02 (15:32):
Yeah.
It's interesting that youmentioned the community aspect.
I feel like that's been a goldenthread of a lot of the things
that I've been talking to peopleabout and the need for
connection and the need forcommunity and how healing that
can be surrounded by otherpeople who understand what
you're going through and aremaybe in either similar places
(15:56):
than you or maybe just a littlebit further along and learning
from them and how they can learnfrom you and that mutual benefit
that can come from beingconnected to others.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Yeah.
And if you've been told that youhave no worth and then you're
able to help someone in asimilar situation, you can see
like, oh my gosh, that is nottrue.
I am worth something.
And rebuilding that self-worthand that sense of self, it takes
a long time.
It's not this magic like, oh, Idid this and now I know I'm
amazing and I know that I haveall this worth, but it can be so
(16:31):
helpful.
And to have, I think one of theother reasons that community is
so important for this populationspecifically, but most almost
all populations, right?
Where there's some sort of harmor hurt is that the person that
was around you before is onlymirroring back to you how much
you suck.
Nothing good about yourself.
(16:52):
And so then you're around theseother people who are mirroring
back your amazing qualities sothat you can see them because
you can't see them.
There's that phrase, you can'tsee the label when you're inside
the bottle or something of thatnature.
And so having these other peoplemirror these things back to you
so you can see, oh, wow, I am agood person.
I have worth.
(17:12):
I am smart.
I am kind.
I am empathic.
When you see yourself throughthe eyes of someone else, it can
be really healing.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
Yeah.
And just this understanding thatit's okay to have the emotions
that you do, because I imaginethere's a lot of emotions that
are probably had in thesecircles of women or this
community of women.
And rather than getting thatfeedback from maybe people who
don't understand or potentiallyhave only seen one side of their
partner to be like, oh, I feltthe same way with my partner or
(17:49):
Yeah, I get where you're comingfrom and it changes that script
of you're the crazy one to like,no, this is what's happening and
make it feel more less crazymaking and more truthful.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
Yeah, it gives you the sense of peace that you
aren't the only one, right?
It removes some of that shamethat there's something wrong
with you, that you're crazy.
And then it's interesting when Ido live events or support
groupie type stuff and someone'stalking and every head is
(18:24):
nodding, right?
And it's like, yep, yep, I feltthat.
I've experienced that.
It is, it's so validating.
It's like, okay, I am not crazy.
This is what they do.
There's actually a way out ofthis, right?
It gives people hope.
SPEAKER_03 (18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
I will say as long as the people around you are set
up a specific way and there's asafe container, because
sometimes you can get aroundother people where you're only
sharing the horror stories,which at times can be really
helpful to hear, hey, you're notcrazy.
And it can also bring you intothis pit of despair, too, if
(19:04):
it's only the horror stories.
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
That and I think another danger that sometimes
can...
important for people to be awareof is comparing one person's
story to your own.
Like, oh, my story is not as bador, oh, my God, my story is so
much worse.
Like, I'm so sick or thissituation was so traumatic or,
yeah, this spectrum of peoplewho show up in communities, they
(19:28):
can have potentially thispitfall of comparing their story
to others.
And so I think that's alsoimportant.
the importance of having a safecontainer to explore these
things in.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
yeah.
And I 100% agree because if youhave a group of, you know, 10
survivors who some have hadphysical abuse and sexual abuse,
some have children, some don'thave children, right?
All of their differences.
And so it's like, oh, well, mystory is not as bad because I
don't have children with thisperson.
My story is not as bad because Iwas not physically assaulted,
(20:03):
right?
My story is not as bad because Ihave a job and I can take care
of myself while they have nomoney and their ex took all the
money.
So those are all differentchallenges that people have and
have to work around.
But there isn't a worse than.
Right.
There's no trauma is sorelative.
(20:25):
And honestly, from what I hearover the last decade plus from
this population is that So manywomen, and this is even, can be
harmful to women who have beenphysically assaulted.
I wish I was hit because thenpeople could see it.
People could see a bruise andsay, yes, she's been abused.
(20:48):
But even saying something likethat to someone who has been,
you know, beaten, well, thatdoesn't feel good either.
And so it is, it's kind ofdelicate when people are
comparing.
And I think some of it's humannature to do that comparison.
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
And
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
if you've been in an abusive relationship, you have
been trained to discount yourexperience and to minimize what
you've gone through.
You're more likely to do thatbecause that's how you've been
trained over however long youwere with your partner.
SPEAKER_02 (21:18):
Yeah, I think even in maybe relationships that
don't necessarily havenarcissistic abuse, but just the
two people together don't workout, it's almost like...
I have had clients, I wish I hada reason that I could tell
people why we're gettingdivorced or why we're breaking
(21:39):
up, but it's just not workingbecause of X, Y, and Z.
And so people, I think, seek outsome sort of dramatic event or
some specific details to shareto others to justify why they
need to end a relationship.
But I think it's important forall listeners to hear, you can
end and start any relationshipjust because you want to.
(22:00):
You don't have to have a longlist of evidence to explain to
other people.
It's your life, your feelings,your relationship.
Why do you have to explain it toother people?
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Yeah, and that it's not their privilege all the time
to know.
Right?
And so it can be hard when yourpartner is going to create the
narrative to make you look bad.
And I think that happens.
Well, it always happens whenthere's abuse.
But even in other relationships,because people don't want to be
(22:32):
the bad one, even though in alot of relationships there's not
a bad anyone, it's just notworking.
But we're so polarized, good,bad.
You know, we're, as a culture,not comfortable in the gray.
Yep.
And there's, oh my gosh, there'sso much gray.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Yeah.
I imagine that feeds into thecourt system and the way that
they judge people.
things of like, oh, this is thebad party or this is the good
party or neither party is wrong.
It's both people's fault.
It's like you mentioned.
Well, you know, maybe it's bothand rather than like yes or no.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Yeah.
And that it's, you know, infamily court specifically, they
typically get a snapshot, right?
You don't have weeks to shareyour story.
And unfortunately, survivors, ifyou're listening, you are in
family court.
You are going to want to wordvomit and share the context of
the whole thing.
And unfortunately, it doesn'twork in a family court setting.
(23:33):
And so it is important to getsupport on how to share your
story in a different way, whichthat's a whole other podcast
episode.
But it is.
It's like they don't have thetime to pay attention.
They have their biases.
Like, unfortunately, theirbiases and lack of education and
in family court professionals.
(23:54):
And so very often it's like ajudge actually recently, and
this isn't a singular event, butliterally just recently said,
jerks can be parents too.
To the protective parent wherethere's been physical abuse,
there's been gross stuff, right?
That anyone you would thinkoutside watching would be like,
(24:16):
oh, that's a red flag.
That's a concern.
Maybe we should look at that.
Nope.
Jerks can be parents too.
50-50.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's like so you're notvalidated outside of, you know,
in these larger systems a lot oftimes.
And so it can be really hard.
And then you want to share yourstory because you're like, no,
(24:38):
the judge thinks I'm a badperson, too, that I'm high
conflict, too, that I'm theproblem, too.
And, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Yeah, I think that goes back to the core system
issue.
needing to have like veryspecific evidence sometimes like
I I don't know I don't want toget into a bunch of side stories
here and tangents but I do thinkanytime that I've had a client
who's dealt with the court italmost needs to be like so solid
(25:09):
of an evidence or so very likespecific pieces of information
that indicate like things needto go one way or another and
Maybe they have part of theevidence or a little bit of what
the court's looking for.
But unless it's outstanding,discreet information that the
(25:30):
court is looking for, it doesn'tgo the way that the person wants
it to.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
And sometimes the judge's hands are tied or your
attorney's hands are tiedbecause it doesn't fit the legal
framework.
requirements for somethingdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (25:51):
Yeah, that's what I think I was looking for.
And
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
so, yes, we like, would a judge want their
children to go home with yourex?
No, no, they don't.
But they don't have anything tostand on legally.
And then there are some judgesthat literally suck and are
completely biased and makehorrible decisions.
So as we're going back to thatthought of community, it's so
(26:13):
important when you are goingthrough something so hard And
the marathon of leaving anarcissistic partner, you need
that support.
You need that community.
You need people in your world tohelp you.
Sometimes you need to just ventand needing a place for that.
Sometimes you need logisticalsupport like childcare or
(26:35):
referrals to good attorneys orthings like that.
So that community piece isreally helpful and is important
and It can be a creativecommunity of mine, but it can be
the people in your world.
If you have safe family andfriends, it can be them.
It can be your therapist.
It can be your attorney, butdon't use your attorney as your
(26:57):
therapist.
That's really expensive, FYI,and they're not good at it.
So don't do that.
Yes, they're not trained in thatregard.
No, and it happens all the time.
It happens all the time becauseit's someone who's listening to
you.
And if you feel like you'venever been heard...
Amazing to have someone hearyou.
(27:19):
Yeah.
But
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
sharing what you need to share with the people
who actually are trained or havethe mental space and have the
time to do that, I think isreally important, too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Yes.
Yep.
And knowing people's role.
Right.
A therapist role is reallydifferent than the attorney's
role is different than yourmom's role.
And then the other thing is youdon't have to share, like we
were talking about before, evenif there is no abuse in your
relationship, but you're justdone with that relationship.
You don't have to share 100% ofyour story with everybody.
They don't maybe have thatprivilege or deserve it.
(27:52):
I have a client actually who islike, you know, these people got
the 50% version.
These people get the 80%version.
You and one other person get the100% version.
because you understand thenuances or the details and
you're not judging, right?
And so you get to choose howmuch of your story you want to
(28:14):
share.
And
SPEAKER_02 (28:15):
I think that also gives just that dialogue in
general gives the person thatyou're working with potentially
some more trust in themselvesbecause they can identify what's
important to share with who.
And they're reestablishinginternal boundaries by doing
that rather than feeling likethey don't have any control over
(28:39):
the narrative or any controlover where their life is going.
They can at least have that moreinternal boundary.
And hopefully that feelsgrounding to people in that
situation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Yeah.
There's something so amazingabout sharing your shame
stories.
And I...
Like some of Brene Brown'sstuff, I don't like some of the
stuff, but that one piece ofsharing your shame stories is so
healing.
And so when you can find, again,you're not sharing with the mom,
(29:10):
you're waiting outside of schoolto pick your kid up and there's
random mom you've seen a coupleof times.
Nope, that's not the personright away to word vomit your
whole story.
You're dipping your toe in thewater and seeing their responses
and So you can judge like, oh,do I trust this?
Do I not trust this?
How much can I share with thisperson?
(29:31):
And even just sharing littlebits of your stories that carry
some shame will help you releasesome of that shame.
SPEAKER_02 (29:39):
Yeah, I do like the idea that you just mentioned of
like, maybe this is BernieBrown's idea.
So I don't know who to givecredit to, but to like pay
attention to like how someone isresponding to what you're saying
before you say everything.
Because, yeah, you don't want towalk away from a conversation
being like, why did I say that?
(29:59):
I don't trust this person.
And now their reaction hasinfluenced another domino effect
of emotions that are arising inme.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
Yeah, it's protecting yourself.
And like you were saying, it'sredeveloping that sense of your
boundaries and your internalfeelings of safety.
And so that dipping the toe inthe water is...
so helpful because then ifsomebody does respond with one
of those horrible things like,gosh, if that happened to me, I
(30:30):
would have left the first time.
SPEAKER_02 (30:33):
Yeah, it's not helpful to hear.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Right?
Then it's like, thank you.
Have a nice day.
It's so nice and warm and sunnytoday.
And those are your conversationsabout the weather.
It's not about anything deep.
You know that that person is notgoing to be your person.
And it gives you just a littleindicator of, okay, they don't
actually get any of my story.
We're talking about the weather.
But then this person seemedreally curious and thoughtful
(30:58):
and didn't say somethinghorrible.
So the next time I will continueand just see where this can go.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Yeah, I think redeveloping that internal trust
is really important because Iwould imagine someone that's
also coming out of this positionwho's or anybody who's
experienced trauma.
might find that their compass isoff and so they keep checking in
with other people on what to doand how to do it.
And then they get maybe 10different stories of how to
(31:29):
resolve their issue and thenoverwhelmed by that information
and then are even more paralyzedof how to make a choice of how
to proceed.
But if you know that you cantrust one or two people or maybe
three or four and only getfeedback from those people, You
(31:49):
could then discern, okay, basedon this feedback and based on my
own opinions, I can make thisdecision and, again, further
develop that inner trust Iimagine is part of the process
that a lot of these women gothrough.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Yeah, and something I love to be able to share with
the survivors I work with is youknow better than anyone else
about how to help your kids,about what your ex-partner's
going to do, Mm-hmm.
(32:45):
And so, you know, by the wayyour partner comes home, they
throw the mail on the table,your nervous system already
computes like a computer.
This is what I need to dotonight to stay safer.
Do you already know?
And so we as professionals needto tap in to survivors'
expertise more than we do.
(33:06):
And I think even then, if we areasking their expertise and what
they predict will happen,they're right on, right?
They are almost always right on.
And so then it's, okay, you knowthis.
Now, how can I support you inour next step?
And so often survivors thinkthat they are completely
(33:27):
worthless, incapable of all thethings.
And yet that is the best sourceof information is within.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Well, I hope that through the work that they do,
not only with you, but In thecommunity that you have,
hopefully all women can get backto that place of that self-trust
and that self-empowerment ofthem knowing that they do know
what's best rather than feelinglost and confused in their
journey to heal.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's amazing getting to see thatand getting to see them support
each other.
It moves from this place ofwhere a lot of people call
neediness, like they seem towhere They're just consulting,
right?
They're not asking for advice.
It's just a consult of like,hey, this is what I'm thinking
of doing.
This is how I'm thinking ofwriting this message.
(34:18):
Okay, good, check.
To then them being like, hey, Iwrote this, right?
Not needing to check in.
I wrote this message, look atthe outcome.
And so just getting to see thatprocess is awesome.
And as a therapist, we get tosee that trauma work and that
process of them moving fromtheir neural networks that we
were talking about, new pathwaysof safety and confidence and
(34:42):
boundaries and all of thosethings.
And so, yeah, getting to seethat progress in both places,
it's just an honor and soamazing.
So why am I passionate aboutdoing this?
Because of that.
That's why.
Because I get to see that.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
So before we have to wrap up, Iwas hoping you could share with
people that are listening, howthey can find you and what you
have going on.
So if anyone is interested inworking with you or being
involved in your community thatthey can tap in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yes.
So the community is, it's knownas the Rising Beyond Community.
The business is actually calledRising Beyond Power and Control,
but it's called the, people knowit as the Rising Beyond
Community.
Stephanie on my website, butit's www.risingbeyondpc.com.
That's the best way to get allof the things.
There's free resources on there.
(35:35):
If you are stuck and need legal,if you are stuck and need
parenting, you're stuck and needsome trauma related information,
that is probably the best placeto go.
And then I also have a podcast.
It's called the Rising BeyondPodcast.
And I share the nitty grittydetails of how to share
(35:57):
messages, like how to respond toyour ex-partner and your
co-parenting app.
how to make sure you have aloophole-free parenting plan,
and then some of the moretherapeutic things.
So it's definitely thelogistical and therapeutic.
I have some amazing guests onthere as well that are really
well-known in the field thatshare their insights as well.
(36:19):
And then you can find me onInstagram, risingbeyondpc.
And then if you're in Coloradoand you want therapeutic
services, which is differentthan the community-based
services I'm atArvadaTherapySolutions.com.
And I'm clearly in Arvada, whichis a city in Colorado.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk
with me today and share with ourlisteners what you do and the
importance of the work thatyou're doing.
I really think that women allaround can learn from listening
to themselves and trustingthemselves as well as stepping
away from toxic relationships.
protecting both themselves andtheir children, I think is
(37:02):
really important for all womenwho have children or even for
themselves.
So thank you again for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Thank you for having me.
And I hope that it resonateswith somebody out there.
Thank
SPEAKER_02 (37:15):
you all for listening.
I hope you found someinspiration, validation, had
some questions answered, or justenjoyed listening to this week's
episode.
I encourage you to check out ourwebsite,
wellmindedcounseling.combackslash redefininguspod for
any resources that werementioned in today's episode.
Check out my new program on ourwebsite as well for first-time
(37:38):
moms, where you can join otherwomen entering into motherhood.
The program offers three phases.
Phase one, exploring where youare on your journey towards
motherhood and connecting withthis new identity.
Phase two, preparing your mind,body, and spirit for giving
birth.
And phase three, reconnecting toyourself while caring for your
baby.
(37:59):
I truly appreciate if you leavea review and rating so other
women can find us as well.
Thank you all for listeningagain and keep on connecting
with yourself and with others inthe community and redefining us.
What I've really seen, this is why I started the
Rising Beyond community, isthat, you know, in my therapy
practice, I would have reallysimilar cases.
And the cases in which thesurvivor had a pretty strong,
healthy support system versusthe person who had almost
identical case, very similarabuse, the ones that do not have
(00:22):
safe people in their world, theydon't have a support network,
the length of time it takes themto heal is astronomically
longer.
Years later, longer.
And I was seeing this over andover.
And so that importance ofhealing within connection with
others, healing in a communitywas so apparent because it was
(00:43):
like, well, what's wrong withthis person?
They're not healing.
Is it me?
Is the therapist?
Is it them?
And no, it's none of the above.
It was the lack of connectionswith others.
And for survivors, that is thescariest thing to do is to
connect with others.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
This is Redefining Us, and I'm your host, Stephanie
Contrera, licensed professionalcounselor.
And I'm so glad that you joinedus today so we can dive into
what it means to be a woman intoday's society, figuring out
how we balance everything, howwe grow, how we be more
authentically us and figuringout who we are through the
(01:24):
transitions of life, whetherthat be motherhood, success,
relationships, and all thingsthat have happened in women's
lives, because it's definitelynot a linear journey.
And I think by talking about itand normalizing it and
validating, we can all risetogether and be the women that
we were meant to be.
(01:44):
So keep tuning in.
And I am so excited aboutjoining the conversation and
being in your ears each week.
Let's get into it.
Welcome back to Redefining Us.
I'm your host, StephanieControhera, licensed
professional counselor.
And today I have with me SybilCummins, who specializes in
(02:08):
working with survivors and theirchildren from narcissistic
abuse.
So thank you so much for joiningus.
And yeah, welcome.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (02:20):
so let's just dive in.
What kind of inspires you to dothis work and why are you so
passionate about continuingworking with this population?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Yeah, so I started from a different way than a lot
of the advocates and therapiststhat work in this field of
narcissistic abuse and domesticviolence and that I'm not a
survivor of.
And so I started at it from...
working with the kids.
And I would see these familydynamics, and they were always
(02:52):
deemed, air quotes, highconflict divorce families.
And what I really saw was therewas abuse in these families.
And there was a very specifictype of abuse.
One of the partners would havetraits of narcissism.
So the reason I becamepassionate about it is because
(03:12):
that I was noticing specificallythat our family court system was
not keeping kids safe.
And they didn't actually seem tocare that they're not keeping
kids safe.
And that is ridiculous, right?
I didn't understand it.
I couldn't understand that.
And so if I don't understandsomething, I just dive in.
I just go down the rabbit holetrying to figure things out.
(03:36):
And so I really saw the dynamicswithin our larger systems that
were happening.
how protective parents, and Iwork mostly with moms.
I do work with some males in ourpractice, but in a community
that I run, it's specificallyfor women.
And I just could not wrap myhead around how horrible these
(03:58):
protective moms are treated.
And so in order to help thekiddos, I also need to help the
protective parents in thesesituations.
And so that's really how I gotinvolved is to help families be
safe in a system where they'renot gonna get the support that
they need.
(04:18):
Yeah, I
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
imagine it's really both devastating and raging when
you consider that the courtsystem doesn't do a lot to
protect the families in thesecases.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Yeah, and there's this belief, right?
That, okay, I'm gonna leave thisrelationship and it's all gonna
be better And I'm going to besafer.
And there are these people inplace to help me and my child.
And a lot of the people that areput in place to do that, that's
actually not their role.
That's supposed to be theirrole.
And that's not what happens.
(04:54):
So
SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
it's almost like this false sense of security
that a lot of maybe women enterinto when they decide to leave
the relationship.
And it turns out that it's maybejust more of the same.
It sounds like.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, it's like.
The abuse looks differentbecause maybe their partner
doesn't have access to them inthe hall.
Maybe they've left.
But they will use these othermethods and other ways in the
system to continue to abuse.
And what's sad is so many of thewomen and men that I've worked
with actually don't even knowthat they are being abused.
(05:30):
Because the belief that is outthere, the myths that are out
there is that domestic violenceand abuse is hitting.
or throwing things or choking,that is domestic violence.
And that's actually not all ofdomestic violence.
And so they don't evenunderstand a lot of times that
they are being abused because itis the more coercive control
(05:54):
type behaviors that arehappening.
SPEAKER_02 (05:57):
Yeah.
I know a lot of times in mypractice when I'm giving
supervision to other clients, ornot other clients, other
supervisees who work with moreof this population, Even just
identifying that they're beingabused can be really shocking to
the client that you're workingwith.
It's like, what do you know?
They're not hitting me or no,they're not doing this.
(06:19):
But yeah, if they're controllingyour money, controlling the way
that you parent, controllingwhen you leave the house or, you
know, have an opinion aboutliterally everything that you do
and try to convince you to dosomething different or to do it
the way that they want to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:35):
Yeah.
And isolation is probably one ofthe most common and detrimental
tactics of an abuser.
And so, yeah, they don'tunderstand they've been abused
because it doesn't fit thestereotype of abuse and they
don't fit the stereotype of avictim.
Right.
And this is geographicdifferences.
(06:56):
But here in Colorado, I wouldsay the stereotypical victim of
domestic violence is a A lowincome, low education woman, you
know, many children, blue collarhusband comes home, he drinks a
beer and he beats her.
And that is not even remotelyclose.
(07:17):
Like, can that happen?
Yes, sure.
But that's not what it lookslike.
Unfortunately, narcissisticabuse, domestic violence, they
don't discriminate.
So it doesn't matter how muchmoney you earn, how much
education you have, where youlive.
If you have children or don'thave children, it is possible.
SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
Yeah, I think that's really important for people to
be aware of is that it couldhappen at any socioeconomic
status or any demographic.
It doesn't look just one way.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And so when they first a lot oftimes get that understanding or
it's written on paper or atherapist suggests it or
something like that, it isshocking.
A lot of them don't want tobelieve that because they have
these ideas about what thatmeans about them.
And it actually means nothingabout you.
It means that you chose someonewho chose to abuse you.
(08:10):
That's what it means.
And so taking away some of thatshame and that guilt and the
false responsibility that theyput on you Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Absolutely.
And then they've been told thatit's all their fault in
different ways, either throughgaslighting or overt behaviors
or statements.
And so over time, you start tobelieve it.
If you do have a history in yourfamily of origin, and it doesn't
have to be abuse in your familyof origin, but there's a history
of people pleasing to stay safe,taking ownership of things that
(09:08):
are not yours, you're morelikely to accept that
responsibility for it.
And then, yeah, when you havekiddos, all you want to do is
you want to keep them safe andtake care of them.
And you're put in a positionpotentially where they're not
safe.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
yeah.
So I know you do a lot of workwith the survivors, both in the
court system as well as in thetherapy office.
I'm curious, does your workprimarily focus on
identification and ways to staysafe?
Or what other things are youworking on with these people?
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Yeah, so there's just a constant assessment of
safety throughout the wholeprocess because unfortunately,
harm can come, physical harm cancome at any time.
And I don't ever say that toscare people.
And it's just something to bereally aware of that they may
have never been physical withyou before and it can happen.
(10:05):
So yes, I work with, you know,on that safety piece and keeping
people safe.
And the more fun part, of my jobis working with survivors to
learn how to work in that worldbecause there is if you share
children with your abuser younine times out of ten are going
(10:27):
to have to have contact withthem and so how do you live with
that and keep that contact andstay healthy and mentally
healthy at the same time that'sreally difficult so it is it's
like that healing from thetrauma relearning how to trust
yourself relearning how toconnect with other people
(10:48):
especially if there's thatisolation you have no trust in
your you know trust detectorbecause you trusted this person
who said they were your soulmateright and you truly believed it
you you did believe it and youlove this person you loved this
person and to learn that thatwas a scam and they didn't Yeah.
(11:32):
And so those are the much morefun things to work on than
safety and family court.
But we do them in tandem becauseyou can't really do one without
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (11:43):
Yeah, I'm kind of getting the sense that even if
someone's in the midst of thetrauma, it might be harder to
work on that.
But hopefully when thingsstabilize even a small
percentage, some of thatempowerment, redefining who they
are outside of the relationship,how they can reconnect with
(12:04):
their community is stillimportant to be doing at the
same time.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Yeah.
And what I've really seen, thisis why I started the Rising
Beyond Community, is that, youknow, in my prep, this is my
therapy practice, I would havereally similar cases.
And the cases in which theperson, the survivor had a
pretty strong, healthy supportsystem, versus the person who
had almost identical case,right?
(12:32):
Very similar abuse.
The ones that do not have safepeople in their world, they
don't have a support network,the length of time it takes them
to heal is astronomicallylonger.
And so years longer.
And so I was seeing this overand over again.
And so that importance ofhealing within connection with
(12:56):
others, healing in a communitywas so apparent because it was
like, well, what's wrong withthis person?
They're not healing.
Is it me?
Is the therapist?
Is it them?
And no, it's none of the above.
It was the lack of connectionswith others.
And so that piece of it isreally important.
(13:18):
And for survivors, that is thescariest thing to do is to
connect with others.
SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
Well, yeah, it takes a certain level of
vulnerability, I imagine, afterhaving, again, going back to
that trust piece, like beingbetrayed, trying to open
themselves up again to acommunity is probably very
scary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And most of the time they'vetried to reach out to people and
the responses have been harmful.
And so they've tried to maybeshare with a friend about the
crazy making stuff That's beengoing on in their relationship.
And the response is, wow, Ican't even believe that.
(13:58):
He's always been so nice.
SPEAKER_03 (14:01):
Yeah, dismissive.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
So the response is like, no, actually, see, you're
still the crazy one.
Nope, we don't believe you.
And so there's this sense of Ican't reach out to anybody
because I won't be believed.
Law enforcement doesn't believeif there is not a bruise on you.
there's not a scratch lawenforcement's not really that
helpful and doesn't believe infamily court it's he said she
(14:25):
said they believe that it'salways two-party conflict when
it's not and so yeah that is soscary to trust someone with your
story and know that they willhold it and they will believe
you and they're not going toshame you for what you've been
through that's really scary yeahWell,
SPEAKER_02 (14:45):
narcissists or people who have narcissistic
traits tend to be really good atmasking and having a lot of
charisma and being one way infront of others and another way
behind closed doors.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Yep.
Yeah.
And so it is crazy makingbecause everyone around them
sees, you know, the amazing,caring dad or partner.
And it's all done on purpose.
Like it's willful, which issuper gross to think about that
all the things that they've doneis not because of childhood
(15:21):
trauma.
There's an element of that, butit's not the reason.
It's not because they're analcoholic.
It's not these reasons.
It is willful.
It is done on purpose to gettheir needs met.
SPEAKER_02 (15:32):
Yeah.
It's interesting that youmentioned the community aspect.
I feel like that's been a goldenthread of a lot of the things
that I've been talking to peopleabout and the need for
connection and the need forcommunity and how healing that
can be surrounded by otherpeople who understand what
you're going through and aremaybe in either similar places
(15:56):
than you or maybe just a littlebit further along and learning
from them and how they can learnfrom you and that mutual benefit
that can come from beingconnected to others.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Yeah.
And if you've been told that youhave no worth and then you're
able to help someone in asimilar situation, you can see
like, oh my gosh, that is nottrue.
I am worth something.
And rebuilding that self-worthand that sense of self, it takes
a long time.
It's not this magic like, oh, Idid this and now I know I'm
amazing and I know that I haveall this worth, but it can be so
(16:31):
helpful.
And to have, I think one of theother reasons that community is
so important for this populationspecifically, but most almost
all populations, right?
Where there's some sort of harmor hurt is that the person that
was around you before is onlymirroring back to you how much
you suck.
Nothing good about yourself.
(16:52):
And so then you're around theseother people who are mirroring
back your amazing qualities sothat you can see them because
you can't see them.
There's that phrase, you can'tsee the label when you're inside
the bottle or something of thatnature.
And so having these other peoplemirror these things back to you
so you can see, oh, wow, I am agood person.
I have worth.
(17:12):
I am smart.
I am kind.
I am empathic.
When you see yourself throughthe eyes of someone else, it can
be really healing.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
Yeah.
And just this understanding thatit's okay to have the emotions
that you do, because I imaginethere's a lot of emotions that
are probably had in thesecircles of women or this
community of women.
And rather than getting thatfeedback from maybe people who
don't understand or potentiallyhave only seen one side of their
partner to be like, oh, I feltthe same way with my partner or
(17:49):
Yeah, I get where you're comingfrom and it changes that script
of you're the crazy one to like,no, this is what's happening and
make it feel more less crazymaking and more truthful.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
Yeah, it gives you the sense of peace that you
aren't the only one, right?
It removes some of that shamethat there's something wrong
with you, that you're crazy.
And then it's interesting when Ido live events or support
groupie type stuff and someone'stalking and every head is
(18:24):
nodding, right?
And it's like, yep, yep, I feltthat.
I've experienced that.
It is, it's so validating.
It's like, okay, I am not crazy.
This is what they do.
There's actually a way out ofthis, right?
It gives people hope.
SPEAKER_03 (18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
I will say as long as the people around you are set
up a specific way and there's asafe container, because
sometimes you can get aroundother people where you're only
sharing the horror stories,which at times can be really
helpful to hear, hey, you're notcrazy.
And it can also bring you intothis pit of despair, too, if
(19:04):
it's only the horror stories.
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
That and I think another danger that sometimes
can...
important for people to be awareof is comparing one person's
story to your own.
Like, oh, my story is not as bador, oh, my God, my story is so
much worse.
Like, I'm so sick or thissituation was so traumatic or,
yeah, this spectrum of peoplewho show up in communities, they
(19:28):
can have potentially thispitfall of comparing their story
to others.
And so I think that's alsoimportant.
the importance of having a safecontainer to explore these
things in.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
yeah.
And I 100% agree because if youhave a group of, you know, 10
survivors who some have hadphysical abuse and sexual abuse,
some have children, some don'thave children, right?
All of their differences.
And so it's like, oh, well, mystory is not as bad because I
don't have children with thisperson.
My story is not as bad because Iwas not physically assaulted,
(20:03):
right?
My story is not as bad because Ihave a job and I can take care
of myself while they have nomoney and their ex took all the
money.
So those are all differentchallenges that people have and
have to work around.
But there isn't a worse than.
Right.
There's no trauma is sorelative.
(20:25):
And honestly, from what I hearover the last decade plus from
this population is that So manywomen, and this is even, can be
harmful to women who have beenphysically assaulted.
I wish I was hit because thenpeople could see it.
People could see a bruise andsay, yes, she's been abused.
(20:48):
But even saying something likethat to someone who has been,
you know, beaten, well, thatdoesn't feel good either.
And so it is, it's kind ofdelicate when people are
comparing.
And I think some of it's humannature to do that comparison.
SPEAKER_03 (21:03):
And
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
if you've been in an abusive relationship, you have
been trained to discount yourexperience and to minimize what
you've gone through.
You're more likely to do thatbecause that's how you've been
trained over however long youwere with your partner.
SPEAKER_02 (21:18):
Yeah, I think even in maybe relationships that
don't necessarily havenarcissistic abuse, but just the
two people together don't workout, it's almost like...
I have had clients, I wish I hada reason that I could tell
people why we're gettingdivorced or why we're breaking
(21:39):
up, but it's just not workingbecause of X, Y, and Z.
And so people, I think, seek outsome sort of dramatic event or
some specific details to shareto others to justify why they
need to end a relationship.
But I think it's important forall listeners to hear, you can
end and start any relationshipjust because you want to.
(22:00):
You don't have to have a longlist of evidence to explain to
other people.
It's your life, your feelings,your relationship.
Why do you have to explain it toother people?
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Yeah, and that it's not their privilege all the time
to know.
Right?
And so it can be hard when yourpartner is going to create the
narrative to make you look bad.
And I think that happens.
Well, it always happens whenthere's abuse.
But even in other relationships,because people don't want to be
(22:32):
the bad one, even though in alot of relationships there's not
a bad anyone, it's just notworking.
But we're so polarized, good,bad.
You know, we're, as a culture,not comfortable in the gray.
Yep.
And there's, oh my gosh, there'sso much gray.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Yeah.
I imagine that feeds into thecourt system and the way that
they judge people.
things of like, oh, this is thebad party or this is the good
party or neither party is wrong.
It's both people's fault.
It's like you mentioned.
Well, you know, maybe it's bothand rather than like yes or no.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Yeah.
And that it's, you know, infamily court specifically, they
typically get a snapshot, right?
You don't have weeks to shareyour story.
And unfortunately, survivors, ifyou're listening, you are in
family court.
You are going to want to wordvomit and share the context of
the whole thing.
And unfortunately, it doesn'twork in a family court setting.
(23:33):
And so it is important to getsupport on how to share your
story in a different way, whichthat's a whole other podcast
episode.
But it is.
It's like they don't have thetime to pay attention.
They have their biases.
Like, unfortunately, theirbiases and lack of education and
in family court professionals.
(23:54):
And so very often it's like ajudge actually recently, and
this isn't a singular event, butliterally just recently said,
jerks can be parents too.
To the protective parent wherethere's been physical abuse,
there's been gross stuff, right?
That anyone you would thinkoutside watching would be like,
(24:16):
oh, that's a red flag.
That's a concern.
Maybe we should look at that.
Nope.
Jerks can be parents too.
50-50.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's like so you're notvalidated outside of, you know,
in these larger systems a lot oftimes.
And so it can be really hard.
And then you want to share yourstory because you're like, no,
(24:38):
the judge thinks I'm a badperson, too, that I'm high
conflict, too, that I'm theproblem, too.
And, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Yeah, I think that goes back to the core system
issue.
needing to have like veryspecific evidence sometimes like
I I don't know I don't want toget into a bunch of side stories
here and tangents but I do thinkanytime that I've had a client
who's dealt with the court italmost needs to be like so solid
(25:09):
of an evidence or so very likespecific pieces of information
that indicate like things needto go one way or another and
Maybe they have part of theevidence or a little bit of what
the court's looking for.
But unless it's outstanding,discreet information that the
(25:30):
court is looking for, it doesn'tgo the way that the person wants
it to.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
And sometimes the judge's hands are tied or your
attorney's hands are tiedbecause it doesn't fit the legal
framework.
requirements for somethingdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (25:51):
Yeah, that's what I think I was looking for.
And
SPEAKER_01 (25:53):
so, yes, we like, would a judge want their
children to go home with yourex?
No, no, they don't.
But they don't have anything tostand on legally.
And then there are some judgesthat literally suck and are
completely biased and makehorrible decisions.
So as we're going back to thatthought of community, it's so
(26:13):
important when you are goingthrough something so hard And
the marathon of leaving anarcissistic partner, you need
that support.
You need that community.
You need people in your world tohelp you.
Sometimes you need to just ventand needing a place for that.
Sometimes you need logisticalsupport like childcare or
(26:35):
referrals to good attorneys orthings like that.
So that community piece isreally helpful and is important
and It can be a creativecommunity of mine, but it can be
the people in your world.
If you have safe family andfriends, it can be them.
It can be your therapist.
It can be your attorney, butdon't use your attorney as your
(26:57):
therapist.
That's really expensive, FYI,and they're not good at it.
So don't do that.
Yes, they're not trained in thatregard.
No, and it happens all the time.
It happens all the time becauseit's someone who's listening to
you.
And if you feel like you'venever been heard...
Amazing to have someone hearyou.
(27:19):
Yeah.
But
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
sharing what you need to share with the people
who actually are trained or havethe mental space and have the
time to do that, I think isreally important, too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Yes.
Yep.
And knowing people's role.
Right.
A therapist role is reallydifferent than the attorney's
role is different than yourmom's role.
And then the other thing is youdon't have to share, like we
were talking about before, evenif there is no abuse in your
relationship, but you're justdone with that relationship.
You don't have to share 100% ofyour story with everybody.
They don't maybe have thatprivilege or deserve it.
(27:52):
I have a client actually who islike, you know, these people got
the 50% version.
These people get the 80%version.
You and one other person get the100% version.
because you understand thenuances or the details and
you're not judging, right?
And so you get to choose howmuch of your story you want to
(28:14):
share.
And
SPEAKER_02 (28:15):
I think that also gives just that dialogue in
general gives the person thatyou're working with potentially
some more trust in themselvesbecause they can identify what's
important to share with who.
And they're reestablishinginternal boundaries by doing
that rather than feeling likethey don't have any control over
(28:39):
the narrative or any controlover where their life is going.
They can at least have that moreinternal boundary.
And hopefully that feelsgrounding to people in that
situation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Yeah.
There's something so amazingabout sharing your shame
stories.
And I...
Like some of Brene Brown'sstuff, I don't like some of the
stuff, but that one piece ofsharing your shame stories is so
healing.
And so when you can find, again,you're not sharing with the mom,
(29:10):
you're waiting outside of schoolto pick your kid up and there's
random mom you've seen a coupleof times.
Nope, that's not the personright away to word vomit your
whole story.
You're dipping your toe in thewater and seeing their responses
and So you can judge like, oh,do I trust this?
Do I not trust this?
How much can I share with thisperson?
(29:31):
And even just sharing littlebits of your stories that carry
some shame will help you releasesome of that shame.
SPEAKER_02 (29:39):
Yeah, I do like the idea that you just mentioned of
like, maybe this is BernieBrown's idea.
So I don't know who to givecredit to, but to like pay
attention to like how someone isresponding to what you're saying
before you say everything.
Because, yeah, you don't want towalk away from a conversation
being like, why did I say that?
(29:59):
I don't trust this person.
And now their reaction hasinfluenced another domino effect
of emotions that are arising inme.
SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
Yeah, it's protecting yourself.
And like you were saying, it'sredeveloping that sense of your
boundaries and your internalfeelings of safety.
And so that dipping the toe inthe water is...
so helpful because then ifsomebody does respond with one
of those horrible things like,gosh, if that happened to me, I
(30:30):
would have left the first time.
SPEAKER_02 (30:33):
Yeah, it's not helpful to hear.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Right?
Then it's like, thank you.
Have a nice day.
It's so nice and warm and sunnytoday.
And those are your conversationsabout the weather.
It's not about anything deep.
You know that that person is notgoing to be your person.
And it gives you just a littleindicator of, okay, they don't
actually get any of my story.
We're talking about the weather.
But then this person seemedreally curious and thoughtful
(30:58):
and didn't say somethinghorrible.
So the next time I will continueand just see where this can go.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Yeah, I think redeveloping that internal trust
is really important because Iwould imagine someone that's
also coming out of this positionwho's or anybody who's
experienced trauma.
might find that their compass isoff and so they keep checking in
with other people on what to doand how to do it.
And then they get maybe 10different stories of how to
(31:29):
resolve their issue and thenoverwhelmed by that information
and then are even more paralyzedof how to make a choice of how
to proceed.
But if you know that you cantrust one or two people or maybe
three or four and only getfeedback from those people, You
(31:49):
could then discern, okay, basedon this feedback and based on my
own opinions, I can make thisdecision and, again, further
develop that inner trust Iimagine is part of the process
that a lot of these women gothrough.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Yeah, and something I love to be able to share with
the survivors I work with is youknow better than anyone else
about how to help your kids,about what your ex-partner's
going to do, Mm-hmm.
(32:45):
And so, you know, by the wayyour partner comes home, they
throw the mail on the table,your nervous system already
computes like a computer.
This is what I need to dotonight to stay safer.
Do you already know?
And so we as professionals needto tap in to survivors'
expertise more than we do.
(33:06):
And I think even then, if we areasking their expertise and what
they predict will happen,they're right on, right?
They are almost always right on.
And so then it's, okay, you knowthis.
Now, how can I support you inour next step?
And so often survivors thinkthat they are completely
(33:27):
worthless, incapable of all thethings.
And yet that is the best sourceof information is within.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
Well, I hope that through the work that they do,
not only with you, but In thecommunity that you have,
hopefully all women can get backto that place of that self-trust
and that self-empowerment ofthem knowing that they do know
what's best rather than feelinglost and confused in their
journey to heal.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's amazing getting to see thatand getting to see them support
each other.
It moves from this place ofwhere a lot of people call
neediness, like they seem towhere They're just consulting,
right?
They're not asking for advice.
It's just a consult of like,hey, this is what I'm thinking
of doing.
This is how I'm thinking ofwriting this message.
(34:18):
Okay, good, check.
To then them being like, hey, Iwrote this, right?
Not needing to check in.
I wrote this message, look atthe outcome.
And so just getting to see thatprocess is awesome.
And as a therapist, we get tosee that trauma work and that
process of them moving fromtheir neural networks that we
were talking about, new pathwaysof safety and confidence and
(34:42):
boundaries and all of thosethings.
And so, yeah, getting to seethat progress in both places,
it's just an honor and soamazing.
So why am I passionate aboutdoing this?
Because of that.
That's why.
Because I get to see that.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
So before we have to wrap up, Iwas hoping you could share with
people that are listening, howthey can find you and what you
have going on.
So if anyone is interested inworking with you or being
involved in your community thatthey can tap in.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
Yes.
So the community is, it's knownas the Rising Beyond Community.
The business is actually calledRising Beyond Power and Control,
but it's called the, people knowit as the Rising Beyond
Community.
Stephanie on my website, butit's www.risingbeyondpc.com.
That's the best way to get allof the things.
There's free resources on there.
(35:35):
If you are stuck and need legal,if you are stuck and need
parenting, you're stuck and needsome trauma related information,
that is probably the best placeto go.
And then I also have a podcast.
It's called the Rising BeyondPodcast.
And I share the nitty grittydetails of how to share
(35:57):
messages, like how to respond toyour ex-partner and your
co-parenting app.
how to make sure you have aloophole-free parenting plan,
and then some of the moretherapeutic things.
So it's definitely thelogistical and therapeutic.
I have some amazing guests onthere as well that are really
well-known in the field thatshare their insights as well.
(36:19):
And then you can find me onInstagram, risingbeyondpc.
And then if you're in Coloradoand you want therapeutic
services, which is differentthan the community-based
services I'm atArvadaTherapySolutions.com.
And I'm clearly in Arvada, whichis a city in Colorado.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk
with me today and share with ourlisteners what you do and the
importance of the work thatyou're doing.
I really think that women allaround can learn from listening
to themselves and trustingthemselves as well as stepping
away from toxic relationships.
protecting both themselves andtheir children, I think is
(37:02):
really important for all womenwho have children or even for
themselves.
So thank you again for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (37:10):
Thank you for having me.
And I hope that it resonateswith somebody out there.
Thank
SPEAKER_02 (37:15):
you all for listening.
I hope you found someinspiration, validation, had
some questions answered, or justenjoyed listening to this week's
episode.
I encourage you to check out ourwebsite,
wellmindedcounseling.combackslash redefininguspod for
any resources that werementioned in today's episode.
Check out my new program on ourwebsite as well for first-time
(37:38):
moms, where you can join otherwomen entering into motherhood.
The program offers three phases.
Phase one, exploring where youare on your journey towards
motherhood and connecting withthis new identity.
Phase two, preparing your mind,body, and spirit for giving
birth.
And phase three, reconnecting toyourself while caring for your
baby.
(37:59):
I truly appreciate if you leavea review and rating so other
women can find us as well.
Thank you all for listeningagain and keep on connecting
with yourself and with others inthe community and redefining us.
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