Welcome to Rediscovering Connection!
Have you ever found yourself in a room full of people and yet felt utterly alone? In this episode, I speak to Monika Jiang, a writer, facilitator, and community builder, who joins me in a heart-to-heart on the silent epidemic of modern loneliness and our hunger for authentic connection.
We strip away the facade of social media's promised connectivity, and the importance of creating spaces, on-and-offline, to share stories about our human experience.
Join us for a soulful exploration as we journey towards understanding loneliness and embracing the growth that comes with genuine connection - with ourselves and others.
Get in touch with Monika:
Instagram: @monika.jiang
https://www.linkedin.com/in/monika-jiang/
https://www.monikajiang.org/
https://www.monikajiang.org/sharing-our-loneliness
Through her project 'Sharing Our Loneliness' Monika explores modern loneliness as a personal, collective, and political challenge, aiming to raise awareness and cultivate third places for dialogue, connection, and community.
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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley
About Your Host
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
Today's guest is Monica Jang.
Monica was introduced to me bya mutual friend of ours, claire
Holt, at my former company, whoreally introduced us to the
House of Beautiful Business.
So we attended one year of theHouse of Beautiful Business and
(00:23):
this is kind of where Monica'sjourney where I understand
Monica's journey began.
I'm sure it goes way backbefore that and then since then
Monica has really been delvinginto the topic of loneliness and
those of you who have followedmy journey so far will know that
loneliness has played a part inmy journey, which probably
(00:44):
comes to as a bit of a surpriseto many of my friends, family
connections, who know me, whoknow me as a very social human
being, who've always kind of hadbig, big groups of friends
around the world.
I do have a habit of moving, ofcreating and kind of leaving
pockets of friends which I'mstill getting under the skin of.
(01:05):
I did do a talk at Royal RoadsUniversity last year which
really dissected this a bit moreand and help help people to
understand my journey ofloneliness moving to a new
country during lockdown.
I'm really feeling that, eventhough I have many, many friends
and family in my life at thattime it didn't feel like any of
(01:27):
them were in my life, as thoughI was kind of a passive
spectator in their lives.
If I chose to go on socialmedia, it didn't help me to feel
connected.
And that's really where I'mstarting to get to in my journey
with my personal inner work andalso helping clients and
organizations to really lookafter their social and digital
(01:51):
health through education, toolsand strategies to help us feel
more authentically connected,whether that is in person or
whether that is connecting witha team member from afar.
So welcome, welcome, monica.
I'm so, so glad to have youhere.
I have attended one of yourdigital events, which was really
(02:13):
nourishing, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Thank you so much, shelley.
I really appreciate it and it'sa joy to be here with you.
When you just were sharingabout this part of your life
where you had this and I thinkwe all have an intimate
relationship in a way withloneliness, I really resonated
because I have also felt lonelydespite of having you know,
(02:41):
despite being a social person,of having wonderful people in my
life.
So I think modern lonelinessalso comes often in a paradox,
almost like it hides very welland it shows up in very
different ways and nuances.
Often that doesn't necessarilygo along with this, say, cliche
(03:04):
idea or stereotypical idea ofthis one person who is like,
physically alone, detached,isolated, has no friends or
whatever, although of coursethat also exists, but it's more
like this abundance ofconnections.
You mentioned social media, allof that.
Since you mentioned social media, all of that, and to bridge
(03:25):
over to my time at the house, Iwas responsible there for the
community and for the curationof the content.
So I was lucky to be the personwho, yeah, over the years I was
there for five years reallybuilding the community, from
when it was just a you know,just a conference.
It was just beginning.
You know, just a conference.
(03:45):
It was just beginning to becomesomething and um, so I was
lucky to be connected with a lotof our members and, you know,
spend time with them, get toknow many of them, um, now it's
a global network of like 30,000or more members all around the
world and that, in a way, showedme that many of them had the
(04:12):
sense of, oh, here I don't feel,or I recognize, that I'm not
alone, right, that I don't feelso alone in what I'm trying to
pursue, whether that is inbusiness, trying to do something
else, trying to do somethingunconventional, right, something
out of the business norm, or ona very personal level.
So I just got really curious tosee, like, okay, there seems to
(04:34):
be a much deeper reason whypeople are so attracted to the
house, connection, community,this sense of intimate, intimate
connections, but then alsobeing part of something greater,
like it's almost like thisexistential loneliness, um, and
that just, yeah, led me into um,following this curiosity, uh,
(04:59):
as my chapter at the house wasending, because I've sensed like
there's, there's something else, there's something new for me
to explore, um, and then I doveinto loneliness, um, both sort
of you know, through my ownexperience, partly and probably
subconsciously, to be honest, atthat time, uh, through the
house and through the communitywork, wanting to understand what
(05:21):
is beneath that desire, andthen also seeing our societies
drifting apart more and more,and especially in Europe where
I'm based, in the last few yearsthere's been such a rise in
right-wing and far-rightpopulism and anti-democratic
movements, and there seems to bea resonance right, and there
(05:45):
seems to be a lot of people whofeel neglected and abandoned and
not part, and longing forsomething too, which then gets
responded by in an ugly way, ofcourse, in a non-human way in
many ways, I think, by populistmovements who are very good at
(06:07):
creating belonging in that sense.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So yeah, Someone that's just come onto my radar
is a guy named Robert Putnam.
I don't know if you've heard ofhim.
So he wrote the book calledBowling Alone a decade ago and
his whole thing was about join,join clubs, join communities,
and how people are are less andless joiners.
(06:32):
So we're not joining clubs,we're not.
So what people are feelingalone, but it's like the impetus
is is on us, like it's for usto take the initiative and to
understand and to realize thatour loneliness is is in our
control a lot of the time.
And if only we look out to seewhat opportunities and
(06:53):
initiatives are out there thatspeak to us.
And I think, I think for a lotof us, work just takes over our
lives, right, and we're likelike, like I've struggled to
find the balance between sharingpersonal and professional,
sharing my personal or myprofessional life on social
(07:13):
media, and that that gives me alot of social media anxiety,
particularly in my personalplatforms.
Like I feel quite comfortablesharing professionally on
LinkedIn, but I just I struggleto to know what to share and to
feel comfortable and safesharing on my personal channels
about my personal life.
(07:34):
So, and I just think in thatrespect, my professional life
just always does take priority alot of the time in in terms of
what I'm willing to share withmy wider social connections,
which is really why I've chosento bring my social connections
and relationships in.
So I'm really focused onquality over quantity.
(07:57):
Yeah, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I think, um, you know , you said it, I think you, you
said you know safety likefeeling safe, um, and I would
presume that you know, when atleast it's the case for me as
well when I share somethingabout my work and through my,
with my professional network,that feels much more, it feels
close but distant, you know, uh,feels much more safe because I
(08:22):
there, I'm monica, the personwho's exploring loneliness and
community.
You know, I'm not, that's notthe whole of me, but if I would
want to share something trulyintimate and personal, there's
also this, this question of likewhy and with whom, and you know
, I make myself much morevulnerable, I, I make myself
(08:43):
much more open to be perhapsjudged by the people that I
actually care about, that Iactually love, right.
So I think that that is what Ihear in what you were just
sharing.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And I wonder.
I know that you've recentlystarted on Substack and I'm like
just preparing to launch onemyself and that just the idea of
that is feeling somewhatvulnerable, because I know that
when I do launch eventually,then it will be the more
personal and authentic versionof me that is going to be shared
(09:20):
.
Like I have notebooks brimmingwith stuff that I don't share
anywhere at all because Iwouldn't feel comfortable
sharing on LinkedIn, I wouldn'tfeel comfortable sharing it on
Facebook and it's like where,where?
What is this for?
Am I saving it for a book, ordo I just need to release when
it is actually most alive for me?
So how is that?
(09:41):
How has that journey felt foryou?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
on Substack how has that?
How has that journey felt foryou?
On Substack, yeah, I think.
Well, I guess you know there'sso much to be said about, you
know, social media or media,digital media in general, how
that is both helpful but thenalso often detrimental to our
desire to want to connect and toour well-being overall.
(10:05):
Um, like this desire to like,share or not, and for whom, but
um, for me, I mean, it was justlike the first things.
I, when I, um, when I left thehouse, I took a few months for
nothing.
I really plunged into theunknown.
At that time I really had noidea.
(10:25):
I had an inkling of maybe thereis something with this
loneliness topic, but no realidea of where that could go.
And that was a really importanttime for me.
Just to, you know, enjoy thistransition and honor the time
that I had with the house andthen also let that sink before
I'm jumping into the next thing.
(10:47):
Right, so the launch of the stepstack, I remember, was sort of
a very, for me, a tender thing,but it always also was, it felt
doable.
At that time, you know, I waslike, okay, it's, it's, it's a
newsletter, like I'm writing,and this is for me, this is
research, and writing for me, isthinking.
So I'm basically justmotivating myself to, you know,
(11:10):
think more and deeper about thistopic, and if there are a few
people who want to, you know,read it along with me and who
become curious as well,particularly about something
that is so stigmatized and sooften misunderstood loneliness
then that's wonderful.
And I think you know what Ihear in your sharing of wanting
(11:37):
to maybe share something morepersonal is that it's that's one
big learning that I that I haveso far and it's not been a long
time that it is so needed andso helpful for all of us
actually to share more of theseparticularly intimate personal
(11:58):
things that we usually maybekeep to ourselves, whether they
are more, you know, difficultfeelings or difficult
experiences, or they're verypositive ones, right and
everywhere on that spectrum.
But it is just so, so neededthat we are coming into
connection through these sharedexperiences, that someone reads
something of your you know umsubstack and says like, oh, I, I
(12:22):
thought it was just me, youknow.
Or, oh, that there's somethingthat I can take just as an
inspiration for today, or, oryeah, or just like these are
beautiful words, like it's sopoetic, you know, it's like a
piece of art, like there.
There's so many ways we canresonate with each other.
Um, that doesn't necessarilyhave to fulfill a specific
(12:45):
measurable outcome or purpose.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know, I think yeah, and you have been um
hosting some physical eventsrecently in Berlin am.
I right yes so some of themwere open to all, and was it?
Did you do one just for guys?
We're just for men.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yes that was the most recent ones.
I did a first one in like a,just the first one in, in Berlin
, uh, in December last year.
That was the, the very firstone.
Then I did one in Lisbon inMarch and then last week one
just for men, together with awith a friend of mine, and now
(13:26):
I'm gonna do one in Madrid aswell in two weeks.
Yes, and yeah, that one thatthe one for men was sort of, and
yeah, that one the one for menwas sort of more looking at sort
of the disconnection of menfrom themselves and you know
(13:47):
each other and this idea ofmasculinity and how that is
connected to this disconnectionor this sense of loneliness.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And how facilitated were these events.
Mightily or fully facilitatedwere these events kind of
lightly or fully facilitated?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
actually pretty like half half, I would say um, it
was definitely carried by thegroup.
So we had 32 men join um and Idid this together with my um,
with my friend Jindi man, who'sdoing a lot of men's work and
he's also a leadership coach, um, and yeah, so together we sort
(14:21):
of opened um.
It was so interesting becausewe opened this circle with just
a few, you know, a few words,also with a grounding exercise,
like some movement.
You know, some of the men werelooking at me like for real, I
have to now go tapping and likebreathing, and I'm, but most of
them, you know, they playedalong.
They were, oh, this is actuallyfun, great um.
(14:41):
And then we opened the circleand I basically just prompted
them to say okay, what are someyou know, associations that you
have with the, with masculinity?
If I say masculinity, what'spopping up?
And I thought, you know, wewould hear maybe one or two
keywords, just like here, there,and then launch into a
conversation between Jindy and I.
And then what happened was thatthere was so much energy
(15:04):
already and so much that wantedto be shared from the men, the
participants about, you know,their personal relationship to
um.
This idea of masculinity issomething that is, like, you
know, a concept um, that theyrelate or not relate to so much.
So there was a lot that wantedto be shared and talked about,
(15:27):
so we just let, we just wentwith that um, holding it but
going with it and having some,uh, some, some conversations,
can some pointers that we wantedto touch on, just to understand
, you know, what are we um, whatare we talking about here, and
how is that also connected tosome research?
Um, and then that was sort ofthe first part, really an open
(15:49):
conversation, discussion,discussion, um.
And then the second part werethese men's circles.
So those were facilitated, butalso lightly, in a way that it
was really about the men sharingtheir stories, and the way that
these men came into the spaceand left was, you know, day and
(16:13):
night, almost, or sun, and itwas really, really beautiful for
me, particularly to witnessthat um, because the the second
part with the men's circles Iwas not part of.
So it was really beautiful forme to, as a woman, you know, as
a, as a woman, as a daughter, asa, as a friend, as a partner,
(16:37):
right, all of these dimensionslike as as me to to witness that
and and how much such a such aspace is is needed actually, and
for men, and for menexclusively, um, I think yeah,
yeah, wow, what a privilege tohave been like you, facilitated
but as a witness to to that, tothat need and feeling of that, I
(17:01):
I'm curious if any likeconnections were made by some of
the attendees there and ifthere's any.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, beautiful, um.
I hosted a circle at myuniversity last week which was
all about authentic connectionin nature and just the gratitude
afterwards of people justsaying I really needed this
space today, thank you, andpeople really feeling seen and
(17:30):
heard in circle.
There's just something magicalabout that process.
So I applaud you for creatingthat space and the bravery of
going out there to say I'mlearning, but I know that this
is needed.
And then look at the respect.
Look at the reception like 32guys.
(17:50):
And how about your your opensessions for men and women?
Have they been quite wellattended also?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
yeah, so I so far I've always kept it with 30, and
now I'm actually interestedbecause, partly because of that
experience with a men'sgathering, to maybe try smaller
groups, because I think thequality and you will probably
notice, like the quality ofcourse, of conversation and
exchange, it does change if youhave right, 15 or 20 instead of
(18:21):
because it was a lot.
It was just wow, there was justa lot and it almost felt like,
you know, it was not enough.
I mean, it's it's never enoughwith these kinds of things, but,
um, I think that's that's oneof the few things that I will
definitely, you know, dodifferently or explore.
But thank you, thank you foracknowledging it, and I think
that's one of the few thingsthat I will definitely do
differently or explore.
But thank you, thank you foracknowledging it.
And I think it just speaksreally to the need for
(18:44):
connection more than anythingelse amongst each other, and I
think there is somethingparticularly precious about men
connecting with each other, notthrough sports, not through, you
know, going to the pub and um,hanging out there, not, um, not
(19:05):
these kinds of activities.
I mean, activities are great,but not necessarily those spaces
where not to say that they'rewrong and they're needed and
they're great, but where there'salready a social code right on
how to be there and in biggergroups and you're like, okay,
you know this is going out andlike that kind of sit, but but
(19:26):
in a, in a more, yeah, focusedway where you can show up.
And, of course, I think the theone of the advantages um
advantages, I guess, yeah, in inthose spaces is that people
don't know each other.
So there is almost this rightwe said like, okay, we'll not
share details that can beattributed to someone um,
(19:47):
outside of this space.
It's like just here, pleasehonor that um.
And they didn't know each otherso often.
Often it is easier,paradoxically, to share
something more intimate with astranger in those spaces now and
in our circle last week it wasmajority women.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
There was one guy and sometimes we would go round in
circle and sometimes we wouldkind of popcorn it to allow
people to just speak when theyfelt the impulse to, and he was
definitely one of them thatspoke last and it was almost
like it had to sink in that oh,we're going there, and almost
(20:30):
like it took a a while for that,that opening, to even make the
words accessible in terms ofwhat he was actually feeling,
yeah, yeah, it's, I think, um,and also, I guess, and I could
imagine, right in the presenceof many other very articulate,
(20:54):
I'm assuming all of these thingswomen, uh, you know to to be
like, okay, what am I going tosay?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
you know, I want to speak my truth, but like, is it
that or is it this?
So I I again just assuming howhe might have felt, um, that I
could imagine that might havebeen the case as well.
And there is, um, just on this,uh, um, on this topic, not this
observation, there's researchdone primarily by a woman called
(21:24):
Niobe Wei, and she's beenstudying boys and young men in
particular, over decades now andacross the world.
She's based in the US, but likeacross the world, and she's
based in the us, but like acrossthe world.
And what she found was thatboys around the age of seven or
eight ish, I think, um, you know, before that or during that age
(21:47):
, they have very closerelationships and friendships,
like with other boys inparticular, but then something
shifts during their very earlyadolescence, where they get this
idea that, um, you know it's,it's not manly enough to be
(22:09):
intimate with another boy inparticular, right, like, maybe
touching each other now in thisway, like hugging each other,
holding that's weird.
Like girls maybe do that.
You know we shouldn't be doingthat.
And like, like all of thesecliches about like boys don't
cry, men don't talk about theirfeelings, like all of that is
(22:32):
very much interwoven in at leastthe you know, most Western
industrialized nations andcultures, right, this idea that
yes, there is a certain way howa boy is growing up to be a man,
right To be self-sufficient, tobe strong, to like be composed.
You know how dare you like cryand like make a drama scene,
(22:53):
like, no, not a girl, you're nota woman another cliche, um, but
there's something that happens.
It gets so suppressed and robsthem almost right of of this
very natural human instinct ofwanting to be emotionally
intimate, wanting to connectright, wanting to hug each other
(23:16):
, wanting to be close.
So I think when you, when youshared about this um participant
of yours in your circle andthat you felt like maybe there
was a little bit of hesitationor it had to sink in, um,
there's, there's many reasonsfor that, and just mentioned
this to say like that's there'sso much depth in you know the
(23:40):
reasons and the whys of how menhave been socialized, or boys,
men, um, and how that plays outin our society right now that is
going through so much uh, yeah,waking up for like, a sense of
like transformation, right andand predominantly also through,
(24:03):
uh, feminist movement and soforth.
Not that they were yet thereyet, but, um, I have a lot of
new found compassion, I wouldsay personally, for boys and men
in in this regard in particular.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.
I have a five-year-old boy, soit's actually really valuable to
know to for me to be able tosupport him in the years to come
yeah, I, I recommend you if youhave not seen it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It's the?
A movie called close and it's abelgian movie and it's also
based on the research that Imentioned.
Um, and it's a.
It's a yeah, it's a very heavymovie, um, but uh, it's a
beautiful one that depicts thisinner confusion, almost at such
a young age like I, really I getgoosebumps because it's so.
It's a beautiful one thatdepicts this inner confusion,
almost at such a young age likeI.
(24:58):
Really I get goosebumps becauseit's so.
It's.
Seeing that and reading theresearch is one thing, but like
seeing it in a movie, likethrough personal stories, and
the director also who spokeabout this, is like very, um,
it's concerning in a way.
Right, it's like wow, and nowthis movie is coming out, you
know, after so many years.
So, anyway, I recommend it toyou because I think it's
concerning in a way.
Right, it's like wow, and nowthis movie is coming out, you
know, after so many years.
So, anyway, I recommend it toyou because I think it's maybe
(25:22):
inspiring in a way, even thoughit's a heavy one.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, it's a beautiful one, thank you, and
much of my work leans on theresearch of Dr Robin Dunbar in
terms of understanding thenumbers of people that actually
really impact our health andhappiness.
And, looking at that, thenumbers are small and I do think
(25:46):
, as a parent, this is going toreally help me to be a good mum
in terms of encouraging mychildren to have a small number
of close friends and stop tryingto be popular to everybody,
because that does notnecessarily lead to lead to
happiness.
Um, I wonder if kind of numbershas come up for you in any of
(26:08):
the work that you've done?
Um, in terms of seeing how howpeople's social needs are and if
they're being satisfied intheir in their physical life or
in their digital life.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Perhaps yeah, it's such an important aspect, and I
think that's where social mediacomes in again.
Right, it's this, this sensethat you know, I have hundreds,
maybe thousands of followers,but I have no one to call when
(26:39):
I'm feeling sad, right, or ifI'm feeling, um, I want to share
something really important, andso that's sort of the modern
notion of this weird modernloneliness, right, and that that
has nothing to do necessarilywith um, with lack of
connections, because we are sohyper connected in a way, but
(27:02):
the quality of it and, as yousay, sort of the, the number, um
, I think does, does absolutelyplay a role, and the trends,
like at least the, the numbersthat are coming out of the us
and that I know of, because ineurope there's also similar
statistics but different onesthe numbers are really declining
(27:23):
in terms of friendships, andclose friendships in particular,
which is very concerning, um.
But then, on the other hand,you have sort of the social
media phenomenon, right, it'slike everybody's your friend now
I'm following an influencer andlike they share their morning
routine and like that this iswhere I go to for lunch and
you're like, oh, that's myfriend.
You know, it's not that I wouldsay it like this.
But it feels like that and um,of course, when they do research
(27:47):
and like compare right, how howpeople feel actually after
social media interactions andthe, the results are very mixed.
Because and maybe you resonatewith this, I do for sure is that
sometimes I go on social mediaand I scroll and I'm like, yeah,
I actually I love to see whatmy friend there and there or
(28:07):
that person is doing, you know,right now on the other side of
the world.
That's cool, I feel connected ina way, right, or I have this
new app that I'm testing,actually, where you check in, uh
, on how you feel today.
When you do that three times orso a day, it's like it's a
small check-in, it's likeliterally one, one minute on the
app, but not even just likethis is how I feel today and you
(28:30):
can check how your friends feel, which is interesting and nice
because, um, it's actually in acanadian, it's a canadian um app
or a company startup, uh, it'scalled up being and they really
look at the social aspect ofwell-being anyway.
So that's nice.
You know, I'm like, oh, that's,that's cool.
(28:50):
But then often, of course, I goon social media and I scroll,
I'm like what have.
What have I been actuallylooking at?
Like I don't even remember, I'mjust in this doom scroll and I
don't feel connected, I feeldisconnected, I feel jealous, I
you know, because I'm seeingthis, I'm seeing that and I feel
like I'm left out and like whydidn't they ask me to come?
(29:11):
You know all of these things.
So back to your question of youknow, quality versus quantity.
Um, I think absolutely.
In terms of close relationshipsor close friendships, it is so,
so important for us to at leasthave one person right that we
can rely on, that, we can trustto, that, we can speak to, that
(29:35):
we can call um and shift ourperception a little bit of what
it means to be in relationship,what it means to have true
friendships.
I'm posting, in two weeks, thisevent here in madrid that is
exactly about this like what isactually true friendship in this
age of everybody's your friendand no one?
(29:56):
And also, which is a little bitof a related question but a
slightly different one, what ifwe centered our lives more
around our friends and aroundfriendship rather than, say, the
nuclear family?
So, yes, I I definitelyresonate with this idea of
keeping the circle small andtight and then also being
(30:21):
conscious of nurturing thoserelationships, because we all
have just a certain amount ofenergy to give and even though
love is expansive, right, likeyou need energy to communicate,
you need energy to connect, youneed energy to visit someone if
they're not in your same youknow place and you need to take
time right and and that thattakes energy.
(30:44):
So, um, I personally can onlyhave like a yeah small, small
circle of really really closefriends that I then tend to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I so resonate and with that energy, that we have a
finite supply of energy andtime.
I I think that met.
For many people they'respending that time and energy
like crafting a post for socialmedia.
And I've just had a big testbecause I've just gone on a huge
(31:18):
road trip to Utah to see mybrother.
It was 1600 kilometers each waywith my two children and my
partner.
It was a huge deal, huge dealand you know, I did feel a bit
of an impulse to share somethingon social media but ultimately
it was a really big deal and I'mlike I only really want my
(31:40):
close connections to even knowthat I'm going, because I don't
want the whole world to bechecking in and feel like I need
to be updating everybody alongthe way of how it's going and
everything.
I wanted to be able to reallysink into the enormousness of
what we were doing and to beable to get there and be in full
(32:01):
presence, not feeling like Ineed to answer to anybody at all
.
So I let about 12 or 15 peopleknow that we were going on this
trip and then some of them didmessage me kind of on the way,
and those that did, I kind ofresponded to those that didn't
you know.
I felt like I'd done my duediligence to let them know and
(32:21):
that was enough.
And then I let let people knowonce we arrived home safely.
Now I I will share something onsocial media.
Um, I will, I'm excited, likegot some beautiful photos.
But actually some of thosephotos I've sent to kind of a
few like different family groupsand I've sent to individuals to
(32:43):
go wow, this was like such anourishing trip.
And now I feel called toactually go and print some
photos and send some in the post.
And then I think if I just sharethis on social media, if they
then receive that in the mail,would that feel as personal,
would that feel as special?
So I'm kind of doing a littlebit of a test for myself to see
(33:07):
if I can hold off and actuallyspend the month of May just
personally sharing with my widersocial connections.
So, going back to robindunbar's numbers, so he says
your, your, your brains uh, your, your brain has the capacity
for about 150 people in thewider social spheres.
(33:28):
So I've done, I've done my workto map my, to map my people,
and mapping like, the differentclusters of people around it as
well, to make it feel a bit moremanageable.
So really, what I'm wanting todo from this is to really take
in all the learnings from mytrip and that intimate
connection that we had, thegrowth that me and my family had
(33:51):
in the car we were literally inthe car for about 56 hours
together over five days, oh mygosh, um and share it intimately
with people and invite peopleto kind of live experiences,
whether it's in zoom or in themetaverse which I'm exploring
and offering.
You know, sharing, askingpeople, what do you want to ask
(34:12):
me about it?
It was a big deal.
So this, for me, is my firstreal test to see, um, how this
feels to be sharing in this muchmore personalized way.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I love it.
So, first of all,congratulations on successfully
making that huge trip.
I like coming back safely and I, yeah, I find it very inspiring
that you, you know, consciouslyare choosing to experiment a
little bit and see, like, howdoes that feel?
And question you know how andwith whom do I want to share
(34:54):
what?
Because you know that thishappened right, your partner
knows, your children know youwill forever have this memory
because you have had thisexperience.
But what the zeitgeist is sortof telling us these days, like
if you don't, if you can't provethat there was, you know, a
photo and a live stream and avideo and like a second by
(35:16):
second documentation of this iswhat I'm doing right now, by the
way, then it did it actuallyexist, you know?
Did it actually happen?
So I think to resist that is isa wonderful provocation and uh,
and really speaks to you know.
Coming back to coming back tothe basics of like, let me just
(35:39):
be here and like, take this in,because we're doing this right
now and this is how it feels,and like, how, you know,
wonderful, or like, howchallenging also sometimes, or
how, whatever it was right, um,but that's so precious, even
more so, I think these days tokeep that to yourself, um, and
not feeling like you.
(36:00):
You have no zero obligation toshare.
You know, with, with like thewider, like social media world
at all right so thank you andyeah it was definitely all the
feels, it was all of theemotions.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
It was amazingly, stunningly, breathtakingly
beautiful and it was anxietyridden at times.
The pace of US cities on theroads is crazy.
Yeah, that was heartless wowtimes, um, but yeah, it was
incredible and I have had somefeedback from a friend of mine
(36:35):
that I don't share enough interms of my personal life on
social media and I'm like Iguess my podcast, in a way, is
probably a bit more of apersonal touch.
So, um, but yeah, I don't, Idon't I save it.
I save it for people that arein my circles and you know,
maybe, maybe I don't, I don't Isave it.
I save it for people that arein my circles and you know,
maybe, maybe we don't need tobear all to the public all the
(36:57):
time.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
No, no, I mean, there's so much of it already.
And I feel that.
I really feel that because Ialso you know I'm now that I've
started my projects I'm likematter, like, should I post this
like?
And then, of course, at leastagain I'm speaking just for
myself I'm getting into thiscycle of like how's the post
(37:21):
performing what time?
Who are these people?
And it's just like, oh my gosh,monica, you don't like.
No, you know, disconnect fromthat.
But it's so hard because, ofcourse, I am.
You know, I'm spending a lot oftime online and and on social
media and it's so seductive andit's so smart and so
(37:42):
manipulative to, you know, tieyour self worth through a stupid
post.
You know stupid likes on socialmedia.
It's just like, just postsomething and then don't look at
it, you know, but it doesn't.
It just never happens for me.
Um, but I, yeah, I, I thinkthat's it's.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
It's a it's not an easy, easy task and I I think
the social media algorithms arejust kind of annoying because,
like, if I go more than twoweeks without posting um a video
on YouTube, for instance, likeit's just the algorithm doesn't
work for you and I came offLinkedIn for a little bit and
(38:22):
I've gone back on.
It's like it just doesn't needthe consistency for the
algorithm to actually be yourfriend and for them to actually
show your post, um, which is whyone of the big, big um
learnings that I love to shareis when you're going on social
media like, map the people, evenjust the you know the 12 to 15
(38:44):
people who are really importantto you.
And when you're going on socialmedia platforms like, look them
up first, the likelihood is,even if they have shared which
half of them won't have, but youwon't see it anyway.
And then I do hear from somepeople.
They're like, oh, didn't yousee my post?
And I'm like, well, no, Ididn't, cause I don't go on
(39:06):
social media very much.
I try and go on there as littleas possible, but I'm getting
better at when I do go on beinga bit more intentional with who
I look up.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
I think that's a great um.
You know prompt to say, likemap this, as you said, right,
map your people, like just don'tlook at your contact list,
right, don't look through yourLinkedIn connections, just out
of your you know top of yourmind who are the people and map
them.
And I did that as well.
(39:40):
Just like in terms ofunderstanding, you know who is
there actually and who.
So what are the clusters, asyou said, right, like family and
so forth, and that would tellyou a lot already you know about
it.
And how do you resonate?
Then sit with that and say, howdo you resonate?
You feel like I, I wish therewere more people, or is it more?
(40:04):
Is it not more?
It's different, like have yououtgrown some of these
friendships?
Because that's happened, thathappens, right, it's like I
don't think we, it's like in anyrelationships, like seems like
we're not, you know, on the samepath, or like it seems like we
have less, we have less to toshare.
Now, somehow, neither was, Iwas really invested into this
(40:26):
relationship, which is just here, because it's convenient and
it's comfortable.
You know no one wants to leaveum, so to make also the
conscious choice of ending umbeautifully in a way, or as
beautiful as possible, or honest, by the friendship.
I think that's.
That's really not easy andusually it fades out.
(40:47):
Somehow you lose touch.
I'd like to say to someone in away, without you know, making it
a big drama, but just say, hey,I've noticed like you don't
seem to be hanging out in thisway anymore, like I just wonder
if it's, if you notice that aswell, like maybe it's because of
this or that, or like this iswhat I'm interested in.
You know to, to, to also honorthe friendship and say we ended
(41:10):
here, and then you create roomor space again for new people,
so that it balances it out aswell, of how many new people can
you, you know, can do, you wantto meet, or can you meet um, so
that it's not always this senseof yeah coming from a void.
Right, I feel like I'm actuallyhappy, I'm actually okay, but
(41:31):
I'm still gonna go to 25networking, you know events or
whatever that.
But that's also the culture youknow that that we live in.
It's like, why aren't yousocial?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
be social, right, like no, I don't want to be
social all the time, yeah yeah,that so resonates all of that,
and and I just think, yeah,being intentional with how we're
spending our time, and one ofthe checks that I have is do I
like the version of me that isalive when I'm in the presence
(42:03):
of others?
Yeah, beautiful, and, and Idon't know what it is and it's
sometimes I feel, um, I feellike it's unfair, because I feel
myself pulling away fromcertain individuals and I can't
put my finger on why.
They've done absolutely nothingwrong, but for some reason,
that version of me that I loveto be doesn't come out, and
(42:29):
actually, sometimes, a versionof me that I'm not wanting to be
is present.
So in that respect, I mean,we're honoring ourselves by by
stepping back and acknowledgingthat, whether it's out loud or
not, yes, no, um, absolutely Ium.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It reminds me, right, of this baseline of being if
you are not connected withyourself, you're not going me,
you know, and there's very manyversions of me, um, but like
(43:15):
this version of me, do I, youknow, do I resonate, or is it
one from the past?
I actually don't want to bethat person anymore.
I thought like I left that part, just like that particular part
, behind and therefore can I gointo connection with certain
kinds of people because Iintentionally want to, and vice
versa, right, like that theother person hopefully also
(43:38):
feels the same way, right, andthen you have something that you
can nourish and that you wantto nourish.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
So, yeah, so I'd love to know I I understand and this
might be wrong, but Iunderstand that you've kind of
gone into this realm ofloneliness and facilitating
events with curiosity to reallysee what is wanting to emerge.
Um, are you still in that phaseor are you?
(44:08):
Do you feel like you started toget under the skin of what is
wanting and you've kind of gotsome vision of how that's going
to play out in your future?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I think I'm still in the exploration um phase and I
hope it never stops.
To be very honest, um, I hope Ikeep this sense of curiosity.
I hope I keep this sense of um,yeah, the way that you know we
just talked about the the waythat my heart feels and my soul
(44:45):
feels when I am in in this workof being with others, of holding
space, of having people andoften strangers in a sense, or,
you know, people that I've notspent a lot of time with bare
their soul, in a way that is somoving to me and again seems to
(45:08):
be so needed without me beingagain seems to be so needed um,
without me being having to saylike, okay, now I'm a coach, I'm
a therapist, I'm a I don't knowwhat I, I mean, I am trying to
create those spaces, but I, I,um, I hope I don't lose that.
You know the sense and at thesame time, um, I I guess I'm
(45:33):
becoming clearer um that I wouldlove to focus my work on, on
what I'm doing, but just doingit better.
So I think there is somethingvery natural for me of, yeah,
bringing people together andlike creating this sense of
community, um, but differentfrom before, I guess it's more.
(45:54):
It feels more like small,direct, intimate, it feels
there's some, a space aroundreally cultivating and
practicing connection skills um.
So compassion and empathy,active listening and
self-reflection um shiftingperspective of me and other
(46:16):
people, presence, um, thesekinds of skills or capacities
really that are needed, I think,more so than ever, and I I want
to, yes, step into that part aswell.
So both, yes, understanding andholding space for how
loneliness one wants to be shown, um wants to be shown or made
(46:38):
visible um again, because it isstill a topic that is, yeah,
tiptoed around um often and, onthe other hand, trying to say,
like, how can we nurture thosecapacities in order to be more
able to reconnect with ourselvesand others and and the world
right at large?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
yeah, and I love that .
Just the reconnect with self,that just so resonates because I
think, through through work andbusiness of life, we can so
easily lose our essenceourselves.
And then we find ourselves,when we do get social, like what
(47:21):
, what are we talking about?
What is our conversation?
It's like we really need to goinside to start remembering what
lights us up, what we want tobe talking about, not just
allowing the narrative to justflow from our mouths on topics
that we're not even interestedin or we don't actually have our
own voice on.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
We may be just repeating somebody else's
thoughts or words rather thangoing deep to understand what we
think that's such an importantpoint because it speaks to the
fact that we've all and it'sironic because I'm speaking now
um, that we've all become soused to speaking, you know, to
(48:04):
sharing, to posting, tobroadcasting, to voicing, and to
say like, okay, I'm on thisside, I'm on this side.
I'm not with those people, I'mon this side, I'm not with those
people, I'm on this side, yes,I'm with the good ones, right,
like I'm with the ones that areright.
And I think this capacity toreally listen right to the other
person, but also to yourself,like really, really, really
(48:28):
listen, that is something thatneeds to be brought back in a
way, that needs to be nurturedand that can lead to this sense
of self-connection in a deeperway and then connection to the
other, because, ultimately, weall want to be listened to.
But the fact that we speak moreand shout louder and more
(48:51):
channels, more and more, andit's like who is even listening
to this?
Like are you still, you know?
And to pause and to say like Iactually don't know, I don't
have an answer to this, or Iactually notice right now I'm
not in the conversation, notpresent, I'm not here, I'm
(49:13):
actually thinking about my lunch, you know, or I'm thinking
about what else I have to do.
I'm going to do this.
I'm actually not here at all yetso that you know and then to be
able to ask better questions.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, and even asking questions of yourself, like,
like when you immediately think,oh, I don't have a, I don't
have a thought on this topic.
It's like no, don't know shouldnot be in our vocabulary.
Don't know simply means you'venot given yourself a chance to
think about it.
So ask yourself the questionsand then allow the pause.
(49:49):
And that pause might take you awhole hike, or you know that
pause.
It might not come instantly,but allow the pause, allow
yourself to be curious about howyou do feel on a certain topic.
And maybe that is the standardline, or maybe it's not.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
And be curious doesn't mean you need to tell
everybody, but getting a deeperknowing of self, like that's
kind of why we're here, I thinkyes, I think this contemplation,
right, this idea of, yeah, letme, hmm, sit with them, right,
let me, yeah, go for a walk, asyou, as you said, or hike, or um
(50:34):
, movement is always movement isalways wonderful.
I guess it's so helpful, right,especially when we feel like
overwhelmed or stuck.
Um, just get your body movingand you'll be like, okay, maybe
I'm just walking, you know, justtaking a walk doesn't have to
run, or um, and my, somethingmight emerge right, or this
(50:54):
thought might lead you tosomething else, um, and, and
those are the, yeah, those arethe really, really precious, uh,
in between spaces wheresomething's like oh, what was
that?
Didn't know that that was here.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Um, so yeah, was that , didn't know that that was here
.
Um.
So yeah, and what I'm justfeeling called to kind of leave
leave with from my side is when,when I had kind of gone deep
and into curiosity about myfeelings of loneliness, when I
came out the other side of it, Ireally did feel that I had been
(51:31):
missing myself.
I had been lonely because I wasmissing a version of me that
hadn't been alive for a whileand she was back or she was
returning.
I think she's still returning,but I'm really feeling a lot
closer in my connection withself.
(51:51):
But I'm really feeling a lotcloser in my connection with
self and I'd love to just putthat to you as kind of our
closing of this beautifulconversation.
Have you had any epiphaniesthrough your journey and being
really beautifully open andvocal about your experience?
What has something helped you?
Have you had an epiphany?
That's really been life, beenbeen life-changing for your
(52:11):
journey, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
It's that I've never articulated it like this, but I
think it was that for me as well.
Um, this one moment a few yearsago, when I just realized that
I had been so occupied with work, back to the work topic and
(52:37):
this idea and this mission thatI was so passionate about, and
that I kind of lost the sense ofwho is Monica without her work,
sense of who is monica withouther work.
(52:57):
What is she trying to prove sohard and try to fill so
desperately that still she can'tstop working right, because it
seems like it's not workingactually, uh, that this filling
of, of whatever wants to befilled.
So I came really to this pointwhere I felt completely lost, um
, and and very, very alone.
Uh, and luckily I had, you know, friends and also family around
(53:21):
who were still there.
When I reached back out, youknow to say, like you know what
I, I realized something Ineglected you, I, I neglected
you, I neglected me, I neglectedall the possibility of what, if
, what could have been.
And I, I remember and I stillfeel that when I share it now,
(53:42):
right, this, there's a part ofthat that's even grieving in a
way, because you're like, I wishI would have made time.
I wish I would have listened toyou, because you're an
important person to me.
You are one of my best friendsand I, you know I was there, but
I was not there.
So I think, in realizing thatand then slowly shifting things
(54:03):
and balancing right and seeing,okay, let me create space
actively, you know, get intocreative things again, try new
things actively.
You know, find back.
Find back, as you, as you said,and in that um, finding back to
the, to the relationships, thepeople that really matter to you
, and then also new onesappeared, right, that's the
(54:26):
beauty of life.
It's just like, oh, there it is, there's this person right and
that person like, wow, now newthings are weaving together.
So yes, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
That actually made me a little bit teary because I
yeah, I really resonate and justthinking back to some of the
time that's lost when peoplethat are now lost that maybe I
didn't spend as much time withthat I could have done.
So I'm thankful to havediscovered this now and to be
investing my time a little bitmore wisely same, yeah, thank
(55:02):
you so much, monica.
It's been such a delight toshare space with you.
Um, I will, of course, shareyour sub stack, your LinkedIn,
but is there anywhere else thatyou would like to direct people
to?
To your work, to your events?
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Sounds good to me, those two.
Thank you so much, shelley.
I really appreciate it.
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
Today's guest is Monica Jang.
Monica was introduced to me bya mutual friend of ours, claire
Holt, at my former company, whoreally introduced us to the
House of Beautiful Business.
So we attended one year of theHouse of Beautiful Business and
(00:23):
this is kind of where Monica'sjourney where I understand
Monica's journey began.
I'm sure it goes way backbefore that and then since then
Monica has really been delvinginto the topic of loneliness and
those of you who have followedmy journey so far will know that
loneliness has played a part inmy journey, which probably
(00:44):
comes to as a bit of a surpriseto many of my friends, family
connections, who know me, whoknow me as a very social human
being, who've always kind of hadbig, big groups of friends
around the world.
I do have a habit of moving, ofcreating and kind of leaving
pockets of friends which I'mstill getting under the skin of.
(01:05):
I did do a talk at Royal RoadsUniversity last year which
really dissected this a bit moreand and help help people to
understand my journey ofloneliness moving to a new
country during lockdown.
I'm really feeling that, eventhough I have many, many friends
and family in my life at thattime it didn't feel like any of
(01:27):
them were in my life, as thoughI was kind of a passive
spectator in their lives.
If I chose to go on socialmedia, it didn't help me to feel
connected.
And that's really where I'mstarting to get to in my journey
with my personal inner work andalso helping clients and
organizations to really lookafter their social and digital
(01:51):
health through education, toolsand strategies to help us feel
more authentically connected,whether that is in person or
whether that is connecting witha team member from afar.
So welcome, welcome, monica.
I'm so, so glad to have youhere.
I have attended one of yourdigital events, which was really
(02:13):
nourishing, so welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Thank you so much, shelley.
I really appreciate it and it'sa joy to be here with you.
When you just were sharingabout this part of your life
where you had this and I thinkwe all have an intimate
relationship in a way withloneliness, I really resonated
because I have also felt lonelydespite of having you know,
(02:41):
despite being a social person,of having wonderful people in my
life.
So I think modern lonelinessalso comes often in a paradox,
almost like it hides very welland it shows up in very
different ways and nuances.
Often that doesn't necessarilygo along with this, say, cliche
(03:04):
idea or stereotypical idea ofthis one person who is like,
physically alone, detached,isolated, has no friends or
whatever, although of coursethat also exists, but it's more
like this abundance ofconnections.
You mentioned social media, allof that.
Since you mentioned social media, all of that, and to bridge
(03:25):
over to my time at the house, Iwas responsible there for the
community and for the curationof the content.
So I was lucky to be the personwho, yeah, over the years I was
there for five years reallybuilding the community, from
when it was just a you know,just a conference.
It was just beginning.
You know, just a conference.
(03:45):
It was just beginning to becomesomething and um, so I was
lucky to be connected with a lotof our members and, you know,
spend time with them, get toknow many of them, um, now it's
a global network of like 30,000or more members all around the
world and that, in a way, showedme that many of them had the
(04:12):
sense of, oh, here I don't feel,or I recognize, that I'm not
alone, right, that I don't feelso alone in what I'm trying to
pursue, whether that is inbusiness, trying to do something
else, trying to do somethingunconventional, right, something
out of the business norm, or ona very personal level.
So I just got really curious tosee, like, okay, there seems to
(04:34):
be a much deeper reason whypeople are so attracted to the
house, connection, community,this sense of intimate, intimate
connections, but then alsobeing part of something greater,
like it's almost like thisexistential loneliness, um, and
that just, yeah, led me into um,following this curiosity, uh,
(04:59):
as my chapter at the house wasending, because I've sensed like
there's, there's something else, there's something new for me
to explore, um, and then I doveinto loneliness, um, both sort
of you know, through my ownexperience, partly and probably
subconsciously, to be honest, atthat time, uh, through the
house and through the communitywork, wanting to understand what
(05:21):
is beneath that desire, andthen also seeing our societies
drifting apart more and more,and especially in Europe where
I'm based, in the last few yearsthere's been such a rise in
right-wing and far-rightpopulism and anti-democratic
movements, and there seems to bea resonance right, and there
(05:45):
seems to be a lot of people whofeel neglected and abandoned and
not part, and longing forsomething too, which then gets
responded by in an ugly way, ofcourse, in a non-human way in
many ways, I think, by populistmovements who are very good at
(06:07):
creating belonging in that sense.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So yeah, Someone that's just come onto my radar
is a guy named Robert Putnam.
I don't know if you've heard ofhim.
So he wrote the book calledBowling Alone a decade ago and
his whole thing was about join,join clubs, join communities,
and how people are are less andless joiners.
(06:32):
So we're not joining clubs,we're not.
So what people are feelingalone, but it's like the impetus
is is on us, like it's for usto take the initiative and to
understand and to realize thatour loneliness is is in our
control a lot of the time.
And if only we look out to seewhat opportunities and
(06:53):
initiatives are out there thatspeak to us.
And I think, I think for a lotof us, work just takes over our
lives, right, and we're likelike, like I've struggled to
find the balance between sharingpersonal and professional,
sharing my personal or myprofessional life on social
(07:13):
media, and that that gives me alot of social media anxiety,
particularly in my personalplatforms.
Like I feel quite comfortablesharing professionally on
LinkedIn, but I just I struggleto to know what to share and to
feel comfortable and safesharing on my personal channels
about my personal life.
(07:34):
So, and I just think in thatrespect, my professional life
just always does take priority alot of the time in in terms of
what I'm willing to share withmy wider social connections,
which is really why I've chosento bring my social connections
and relationships in.
So I'm really focused onquality over quantity.
(07:57):
Yeah, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I think, um, you know , you said it, I think you, you
said you know safety likefeeling safe, um, and I would
presume that you know, when atleast it's the case for me as
well when I share somethingabout my work and through my,
with my professional network,that feels much more, it feels
close but distant, you know, uh,feels much more safe because I
(08:22):
there, I'm monica, the personwho's exploring loneliness and
community.
You know, I'm not, that's notthe whole of me, but if I would
want to share something trulyintimate and personal, there's
also this, this question of likewhy and with whom, and you know
, I make myself much morevulnerable, I, I make myself
(08:43):
much more open to be perhapsjudged by the people that I
actually care about, that Iactually love, right.
So I think that that is what Ihear in what you were just
sharing.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And I wonder.
I know that you've recentlystarted on Substack and I'm like
just preparing to launch onemyself and that just the idea of
that is feeling somewhatvulnerable, because I know that
when I do launch eventually,then it will be the more
personal and authentic versionof me that is going to be shared
(09:20):
.
Like I have notebooks brimmingwith stuff that I don't share
anywhere at all because Iwouldn't feel comfortable
sharing on LinkedIn, I wouldn'tfeel comfortable sharing it on
Facebook and it's like where,where?
What is this for?
Am I saving it for a book, ordo I just need to release when
it is actually most alive for me?
So how is that?
(09:41):
How has that journey felt foryou?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
on Substack how has that?
How has that journey felt foryou?
On Substack, yeah, I think.
Well, I guess you know there'sso much to be said about, you
know, social media or media,digital media in general, how
that is both helpful but thenalso often detrimental to our
desire to want to connect and toour well-being overall.
(10:05):
Um, like this desire to like,share or not, and for whom, but
um, for me, I mean, it was justlike the first things.
I, when I, um, when I left thehouse, I took a few months for
nothing.
I really plunged into theunknown.
At that time I really had noidea.
(10:25):
I had an inkling of maybe thereis something with this
loneliness topic, but no realidea of where that could go.
And that was a really importanttime for me.
Just to, you know, enjoy thistransition and honor the time
that I had with the house andthen also let that sink before
I'm jumping into the next thing.
(10:47):
Right, so the launch of the stepstack, I remember, was sort of
a very, for me, a tender thing,but it always also was, it felt
doable.
At that time, you know, I waslike, okay, it's, it's, it's a
newsletter, like I'm writing,and this is for me, this is
research, and writing for me, isthinking.
So I'm basically justmotivating myself to, you know,
(11:10):
think more and deeper about thistopic, and if there are a few
people who want to, you know,read it along with me and who
become curious as well,particularly about something
that is so stigmatized and sooften misunderstood loneliness
then that's wonderful.
And I think you know what Ihear in your sharing of wanting
(11:37):
to maybe share something morepersonal is that it's that's one
big learning that I that I haveso far and it's not been a long
time that it is so needed andso helpful for all of us
actually to share more of theseparticularly intimate personal
(11:58):
things that we usually maybekeep to ourselves, whether they
are more, you know, difficultfeelings or difficult
experiences, or they're verypositive ones, right and
everywhere on that spectrum.
But it is just so, so neededthat we are coming into
connection through these sharedexperiences, that someone reads
something of your you know umsubstack and says like, oh, I, I
(12:22):
thought it was just me, youknow.
Or, oh, that there's somethingthat I can take just as an
inspiration for today, or, oryeah, or just like these are
beautiful words, like it's sopoetic, you know, it's like a
piece of art, like there.
There's so many ways we canresonate with each other.
Um, that doesn't necessarilyhave to fulfill a specific
(12:45):
measurable outcome or purpose.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know, I think yeah, and you have been um
hosting some physical eventsrecently in Berlin am.
I right yes so some of themwere open to all, and was it?
Did you do one just for guys?
We're just for men.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yes that was the most recent ones.
I did a first one in like a,just the first one in, in Berlin
, uh, in December last year.
That was the, the very firstone.
Then I did one in Lisbon inMarch and then last week one
just for men, together with awith a friend of mine, and now
(13:26):
I'm gonna do one in Madrid aswell in two weeks.
Yes, and yeah, that one thatthe one for men was sort of, and
yeah, that one the one for menwas sort of more looking at sort
of the disconnection of menfrom themselves and you know
(13:47):
each other and this idea ofmasculinity and how that is
connected to this disconnectionor this sense of loneliness.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And how facilitated were these events.
Mightily or fully facilitatedwere these events kind of
lightly or fully facilitated?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
actually pretty like half half, I would say um, it
was definitely carried by thegroup.
So we had 32 men join um and Idid this together with my um,
with my friend Jindi man, who'sdoing a lot of men's work and
he's also a leadership coach, um, and yeah, so together we sort
(14:21):
of opened um.
It was so interesting becausewe opened this circle with just
a few, you know, a few words,also with a grounding exercise,
like some movement.
You know, some of the men werelooking at me like for real, I
have to now go tapping and likebreathing, and I'm, but most of
them, you know, they playedalong.
They were, oh, this is actuallyfun, great um.
(14:41):
And then we opened the circleand I basically just prompted
them to say okay, what are someyou know, associations that you
have with the, with masculinity?
If I say masculinity, what'spopping up?
And I thought, you know, wewould hear maybe one or two
keywords, just like here, there,and then launch into a
conversation between Jindy and I.
And then what happened was thatthere was so much energy
(15:04):
already and so much that wantedto be shared from the men, the
participants about, you know,their personal relationship to
um.
This idea of masculinity issomething that is, like, you
know, a concept um, that theyrelate or not relate to so much.
So there was a lot that wantedto be shared and talked about,
(15:27):
so we just let, we just wentwith that um, holding it but
going with it and having some,uh, some, some conversations,
can some pointers that we wantedto touch on, just to understand
, you know, what are we um, whatare we talking about here, and
how is that also connected tosome research?
Um, and then that was sort ofthe first part, really an open
(15:49):
conversation, discussion,discussion, um.
And then the second part werethese men's circles.
So those were facilitated, butalso lightly, in a way that it
was really about the men sharingtheir stories, and the way that
these men came into the spaceand left was, you know, day and
(16:13):
night, almost, or sun, and itwas really, really beautiful for
me, particularly to witnessthat um, because the the second
part with the men's circles Iwas not part of.
So it was really beautiful forme to, as a woman, you know, as
a, as a woman, as a daughter, asa, as a friend, as a partner,
(16:37):
right, all of these dimensionslike as as me to to witness that
and and how much such a such aspace is is needed actually, and
for men, and for menexclusively, um, I think yeah,
yeah, wow, what a privilege tohave been like you, facilitated
but as a witness to to that, tothat need and feeling of that, I
(17:01):
I'm curious if any likeconnections were made by some of
the attendees there and ifthere's any.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, beautiful, um.
I hosted a circle at myuniversity last week which was
all about authentic connectionin nature and just the gratitude
afterwards of people justsaying I really needed this
space today, thank you, andpeople really feeling seen and
(17:30):
heard in circle.
There's just something magicalabout that process.
So I applaud you for creatingthat space and the bravery of
going out there to say I'mlearning, but I know that this
is needed.
And then look at the respect.
Look at the reception like 32guys.
(17:50):
And how about your your opensessions for men and women?
Have they been quite wellattended also?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
yeah, so I so far I've always kept it with 30, and
now I'm actually interestedbecause, partly because of that
experience with a men'sgathering, to maybe try smaller
groups, because I think thequality and you will probably
notice, like the quality ofcourse, of conversation and
exchange, it does change if youhave right, 15 or 20 instead of
(18:21):
because it was a lot.
It was just wow, there was justa lot and it almost felt like,
you know, it was not enough.
I mean, it's it's never enoughwith these kinds of things, but,
um, I think that's that's oneof the few things that I will
definitely, you know, dodifferently or explore.
But thank you, thank you foracknowledging it, and I think
that's one of the few thingsthat I will definitely do
differently or explore.
But thank you, thank you foracknowledging it.
And I think it just speaksreally to the need for
(18:44):
connection more than anythingelse amongst each other, and I
think there is somethingparticularly precious about men
connecting with each other, notthrough sports, not through, you
know, going to the pub and um,hanging out there, not, um, not
(19:05):
these kinds of activities.
I mean, activities are great,but not necessarily those spaces
where not to say that they'rewrong and they're needed and
they're great, but where there'salready a social code right on
how to be there and in biggergroups and you're like, okay,
you know this is going out andlike that kind of sit, but but
(19:26):
in a, in a more, yeah, focusedway where you can show up.
And, of course, I think the theone of the advantages um
advantages, I guess, yeah, in inthose spaces is that people
don't know each other.
So there is almost this rightwe said like, okay, we'll not
share details that can beattributed to someone um,
(19:47):
outside of this space.
It's like just here, pleasehonor that um.
And they didn't know each otherso often.
Often it is easier,paradoxically, to share
something more intimate with astranger in those spaces now and
in our circle last week it wasmajority women.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
There was one guy and sometimes we would go round in
circle and sometimes we wouldkind of popcorn it to allow
people to just speak when theyfelt the impulse to, and he was
definitely one of them thatspoke last and it was almost
like it had to sink in that oh,we're going there, and almost
(20:30):
like it took a a while for that,that opening, to even make the
words accessible in terms ofwhat he was actually feeling,
yeah, yeah, it's, I think, um,and also, I guess, and I could
imagine, right in the presenceof many other very articulate,
(20:54):
I'm assuming all of these thingswomen, uh, you know to to be
like, okay, what am I going tosay?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
you know, I want to speak my truth, but like, is it
that or is it this?
So I I again just assuming howhe might have felt, um, that I
could imagine that might havebeen the case as well.
And there is, um, just on this,uh, um, on this topic, not this
observation, there's researchdone primarily by a woman called
(21:24):
Niobe Wei, and she's beenstudying boys and young men in
particular, over decades now andacross the world.
She's based in the US, but likeacross the world, and she's
based in the us, but like acrossthe world.
And what she found was thatboys around the age of seven or
eight ish, I think, um, you know, before that or during that age
(21:47):
, they have very closerelationships and friendships,
like with other boys inparticular, but then something
shifts during their very earlyadolescence, where they get this
idea that, um, you know it's,it's not manly enough to be
(22:09):
intimate with another boy inparticular, right, like, maybe
touching each other now in thisway, like hugging each other,
holding that's weird.
Like girls maybe do that.
You know we shouldn't be doingthat.
And like, like all of thesecliches about like boys don't
cry, men don't talk about theirfeelings, like all of that is
(22:32):
very much interwoven in at leastthe you know, most Western
industrialized nations andcultures, right, this idea that
yes, there is a certain way howa boy is growing up to be a man,
right To be self-sufficient, tobe strong, to like be composed.
You know how dare you like cryand like make a drama scene,
(22:53):
like, no, not a girl, you're nota woman another cliche, um, but
there's something that happens.
It gets so suppressed and robsthem almost right of of this
very natural human instinct ofwanting to be emotionally
intimate, wanting to connectright, wanting to hug each other
(23:16):
, wanting to be close.
So I think when you, when youshared about this um participant
of yours in your circle andthat you felt like maybe there
was a little bit of hesitationor it had to sink in, um,
there's, there's many reasonsfor that, and just mentioned
this to say like that's there'sso much depth in you know the
(23:40):
reasons and the whys of how menhave been socialized, or boys,
men, um, and how that plays outin our society right now that is
going through so much uh, yeah,waking up for like, a sense of
like transformation, right andand predominantly also through,
(24:03):
uh, feminist movement and soforth.
Not that they were yet thereyet, but, um, I have a lot of
new found compassion, I wouldsay personally, for boys and men
in in this regard in particular.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.
I have a five-year-old boy, soit's actually really valuable to
know to for me to be able tosupport him in the years to come
yeah, I, I recommend you if youhave not seen it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It's the?
A movie called close and it's abelgian movie and it's also
based on the research that Imentioned.
Um, and it's a.
It's a yeah, it's a very heavymovie, um, but uh, it's a
beautiful one that depicts thisinner confusion, almost at such
a young age like I, really I getgoosebumps because it's so.
It's a beautiful one thatdepicts this inner confusion,
almost at such a young age likeI.
(24:58):
Really I get goosebumps becauseit's so.
It's.
Seeing that and reading theresearch is one thing, but like
seeing it in a movie, likethrough personal stories, and
the director also who spokeabout this, is like very, um,
it's concerning in a way.
Right, it's like wow, and nowthis movie is coming out, you
know, after so many years.
So, anyway, I recommend it toyou because I think it's
concerning in a way.
Right, it's like wow, and nowthis movie is coming out, you
know, after so many years.
So, anyway, I recommend it toyou because I think it's maybe
(25:22):
inspiring in a way, even thoughit's a heavy one.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, it's a beautiful one, thank you, and
much of my work leans on theresearch of Dr Robin Dunbar in
terms of understanding thenumbers of people that actually
really impact our health andhappiness.
And, looking at that, thenumbers are small and I do think
(25:46):
, as a parent, this is going toreally help me to be a good mum
in terms of encouraging mychildren to have a small number
of close friends and stop tryingto be popular to everybody,
because that does notnecessarily lead to lead to
happiness.
Um, I wonder if kind of numbershas come up for you in any of
(26:08):
the work that you've done?
Um, in terms of seeing how howpeople's social needs are and if
they're being satisfied intheir in their physical life or
in their digital life.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Perhaps yeah, it's such an important aspect, and I
think that's where social mediacomes in again.
Right, it's this, this sensethat you know, I have hundreds,
maybe thousands of followers,but I have no one to call when
(26:39):
I'm feeling sad, right, or ifI'm feeling, um, I want to share
something really important, andso that's sort of the modern
notion of this weird modernloneliness, right, and that that
has nothing to do necessarilywith um, with lack of
connections, because we are sohyper connected in a way, but
(27:02):
the quality of it and, as yousay, sort of the, the number, um
, I think does, does absolutelyplay a role, and the trends,
like at least the, the numbersthat are coming out of the us
and that I know of, because ineurope there's also similar
statistics but different onesthe numbers are really declining
(27:23):
in terms of friendships, andclose friendships in particular,
which is very concerning, um.
But then, on the other hand,you have sort of the social
media phenomenon, right, it'slike everybody's your friend now
I'm following an influencer andlike they share their morning
routine and like that this iswhere I go to for lunch and
you're like, oh, that's myfriend.
You know, it's not that I wouldsay it like this.
But it feels like that and um,of course, when they do research
(27:47):
and like compare right, how howpeople feel actually after
social media interactions andthe, the results are very mixed.
Because and maybe you resonatewith this, I do for sure is that
sometimes I go on social mediaand I scroll and I'm like, yeah,
I actually I love to see whatmy friend there and there or
(28:07):
that person is doing, you know,right now on the other side of
the world.
That's cool, I feel connected ina way, right, or I have this
new app that I'm testing,actually, where you check in, uh
, on how you feel today.
When you do that three times orso a day, it's like it's a
small check-in, it's likeliterally one, one minute on the
app, but not even just likethis is how I feel today and you
(28:30):
can check how your friends feel, which is interesting and nice
because, um, it's actually in acanadian, it's a canadian um app
or a company startup, uh, it'scalled up being and they really
look at the social aspect ofwell-being anyway.
So that's nice.
You know, I'm like, oh, that's,that's cool.
(28:50):
But then often, of course, I goon social media and I scroll,
I'm like what have.
What have I been actuallylooking at?
Like I don't even remember, I'mjust in this doom scroll and I
don't feel connected, I feeldisconnected, I feel jealous, I
you know, because I'm seeingthis, I'm seeing that and I feel
like I'm left out and like whydidn't they ask me to come?
(29:11):
You know all of these things.
So back to your question of youknow, quality versus quantity.
Um, I think absolutely.
In terms of close relationshipsor close friendships, it is so,
so important for us to at leasthave one person right that we
can rely on, that, we can trustto, that, we can speak to, that
(29:35):
we can call um and shift ourperception a little bit of what
it means to be in relationship,what it means to have true
friendships.
I'm posting, in two weeks, thisevent here in madrid that is
exactly about this like what isactually true friendship in this
age of everybody's your friendand no one?
(29:56):
And also, which is a little bitof a related question but a
slightly different one, what ifwe centered our lives more
around our friends and aroundfriendship rather than, say, the
nuclear family?
So, yes, I I definitelyresonate with this idea of
keeping the circle small andtight and then also being
(30:21):
conscious of nurturing thoserelationships, because we all
have just a certain amount ofenergy to give and even though
love is expansive, right, likeyou need energy to communicate,
you need energy to connect, youneed energy to visit someone if
they're not in your same youknow place and you need to take
time right and and that thattakes energy.
(30:44):
So, um, I personally can onlyhave like a yeah small, small
circle of really really closefriends that I then tend to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I so resonate and with that energy, that we have a
finite supply of energy andtime.
I I think that met.
For many people they'respending that time and energy
like crafting a post for socialmedia.
And I've just had a big testbecause I've just gone on a huge
(31:18):
road trip to Utah to see mybrother.
It was 1600 kilometers each waywith my two children and my
partner.
It was a huge deal, huge dealand you know, I did feel a bit
of an impulse to share somethingon social media but ultimately
it was a really big deal and I'mlike I only really want my
(31:40):
close connections to even knowthat I'm going, because I don't
want the whole world to bechecking in and feel like I need
to be updating everybody alongthe way of how it's going and
everything.
I wanted to be able to reallysink into the enormousness of
what we were doing and to beable to get there and be in full
(32:01):
presence, not feeling like Ineed to answer to anybody at all
.
So I let about 12 or 15 peopleknow that we were going on this
trip and then some of them didmessage me kind of on the way,
and those that did, I kind ofresponded to those that didn't
you know.
I felt like I'd done my duediligence to let them know and
(32:21):
that was enough.
And then I let let people knowonce we arrived home safely.
Now I I will share something onsocial media.
Um, I will, I'm excited, likegot some beautiful photos.
But actually some of thosephotos I've sent to kind of a
few like different family groupsand I've sent to individuals to
(32:43):
go wow, this was like such anourishing trip.
And now I feel called toactually go and print some
photos and send some in the post.
And then I think if I just sharethis on social media, if they
then receive that in the mail,would that feel as personal,
would that feel as special?
So I'm kind of doing a littlebit of a test for myself to see
(33:07):
if I can hold off and actuallyspend the month of May just
personally sharing with my widersocial connections.
So, going back to robindunbar's numbers, so he says
your, your, your brains uh, your, your brain has the capacity
for about 150 people in thewider social spheres.
(33:28):
So I've done, I've done my workto map my, to map my people,
and mapping like, the differentclusters of people around it as
well, to make it feel a bit moremanageable.
So really, what I'm wanting todo from this is to really take
in all the learnings from mytrip and that intimate
connection that we had, thegrowth that me and my family had
(33:51):
in the car we were literally inthe car for about 56 hours
together over five days, oh mygosh, um and share it intimately
with people and invite peopleto kind of live experiences,
whether it's in zoom or in themetaverse which I'm exploring
and offering.
You know, sharing, askingpeople, what do you want to ask
(34:12):
me about it?
It was a big deal.
So this, for me, is my firstreal test to see, um, how this
feels to be sharing in this muchmore personalized way.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I love it.
So, first of all,congratulations on successfully
making that huge trip.
I like coming back safely and I, yeah, I find it very inspiring
that you, you know, consciouslyare choosing to experiment a
little bit and see, like, howdoes that feel?
And question you know how andwith whom do I want to share
(34:54):
what?
Because you know that thishappened right, your partner
knows, your children know youwill forever have this memory
because you have had thisexperience.
But what the zeitgeist is sortof telling us these days, like
if you don't, if you can't provethat there was, you know, a
photo and a live stream and avideo and like a second by
(35:16):
second documentation of this iswhat I'm doing right now, by the
way, then it did it actuallyexist, you know?
Did it actually happen?
So I think to resist that is isa wonderful provocation and uh,
and really speaks to you know.
Coming back to coming back tothe basics of like, let me just
(35:39):
be here and like, take this in,because we're doing this right
now and this is how it feels,and like, how, you know,
wonderful, or like, howchallenging also sometimes, or
how, whatever it was right, um,but that's so precious, even
more so, I think these days tokeep that to yourself, um, and
not feeling like you.
(36:00):
You have no zero obligation toshare.
You know, with, with like thewider, like social media world
at all right so thank you andyeah it was definitely all the
feels, it was all of theemotions.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
It was amazingly, stunningly, breathtakingly
beautiful and it was anxietyridden at times.
The pace of US cities on theroads is crazy.
Yeah, that was heartless wowtimes, um, but yeah, it was
incredible and I have had somefeedback from a friend of mine
(36:35):
that I don't share enough interms of my personal life on
social media and I'm like Iguess my podcast, in a way, is
probably a bit more of apersonal touch.
So, um, but yeah, I don't, Idon't I save it.
I save it for people that arein my circles and you know,
maybe, maybe I don't, I don't Isave it.
I save it for people that arein my circles and you know,
maybe, maybe we don't need tobear all to the public all the
(36:57):
time.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
No, no, I mean, there's so much of it already.
And I feel that.
I really feel that because Ialso you know I'm now that I've
started my projects I'm likematter, like, should I post this
like?
And then, of course, at leastagain I'm speaking just for
myself I'm getting into thiscycle of like how's the post
(37:21):
performing what time?
Who are these people?
And it's just like, oh my gosh,monica, you don't like.
No, you know, disconnect fromthat.
But it's so hard because, ofcourse, I am.
You know, I'm spending a lot oftime online and and on social
media and it's so seductive andit's so smart and so
(37:42):
manipulative to, you know, tieyour self worth through a stupid
post.
You know stupid likes on socialmedia.
It's just like, just postsomething and then don't look at
it, you know, but it doesn't.
It just never happens for me.
Um, but I, yeah, I, I thinkthat's it's.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
It's a it's not an easy, easy task and I I think
the social media algorithms arejust kind of annoying because,
like, if I go more than twoweeks without posting um a video
on YouTube, for instance, likeit's just the algorithm doesn't
work for you and I came offLinkedIn for a little bit and
(38:22):
I've gone back on.
It's like it just doesn't needthe consistency for the
algorithm to actually be yourfriend and for them to actually
show your post, um, which is whyone of the big, big um
learnings that I love to shareis when you're going on social
media like, map the people, evenjust the you know the 12 to 15
(38:44):
people who are really importantto you.
And when you're going on socialmedia platforms like, look them
up first, the likelihood is,even if they have shared which
half of them won't have, but youwon't see it anyway.
And then I do hear from somepeople.
They're like, oh, didn't yousee my post?
And I'm like, well, no, Ididn't, cause I don't go on
(39:06):
social media very much.
I try and go on there as littleas possible, but I'm getting
better at when I do go on beinga bit more intentional with who
I look up.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
I think that's a great um.
You know prompt to say, likemap this, as you said, right,
map your people, like just don'tlook at your contact list,
right, don't look through yourLinkedIn connections, just out
of your you know top of yourmind who are the people and map
them.
And I did that as well.
(39:40):
Just like in terms ofunderstanding, you know who is
there actually and who.
So what are the clusters, asyou said, right, like family and
so forth, and that would tellyou a lot already you know about
it.
And how do you resonate?
Then sit with that and say, howdo you resonate?
You feel like I, I wish therewere more people, or is it more?
(40:04):
Is it not more?
It's different, like have yououtgrown some of these
friendships?
Because that's happened, thathappens, right, it's like I
don't think we, it's like in anyrelationships, like seems like
we're not, you know, on the samepath, or like it seems like we
have less, we have less to toshare.
Now, somehow, neither was, Iwas really invested into this
(40:26):
relationship, which is just here, because it's convenient and
it's comfortable.
You know no one wants to leaveum, so to make also the
conscious choice of ending umbeautifully in a way, or as
beautiful as possible, or honest, by the friendship.
I think that's.
That's really not easy andusually it fades out.
(40:47):
Somehow you lose touch.
I'd like to say to someone in away, without you know, making it
a big drama, but just say, hey,I've noticed like you don't
seem to be hanging out in thisway anymore, like I just wonder
if it's, if you notice that aswell, like maybe it's because of
this or that, or like this iswhat I'm interested in.
You know to, to, to also honorthe friendship and say we ended
(41:10):
here, and then you create roomor space again for new people,
so that it balances it out aswell, of how many new people can
you, you know, can do, you wantto meet, or can you meet um, so
that it's not always this senseof yeah coming from a void.
Right, I feel like I'm actuallyhappy, I'm actually okay, but
(41:31):
I'm still gonna go to 25networking, you know events or
whatever that.
But that's also the culture youknow that that we live in.
It's like, why aren't yousocial?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
be social, right, like no, I don't want to be
social all the time, yeah yeah,that so resonates all of that,
and and I just think, yeah,being intentional with how we're
spending our time, and one ofthe checks that I have is do I
like the version of me that isalive when I'm in the presence
(42:03):
of others?
Yeah, beautiful, and, and Idon't know what it is and it's
sometimes I feel, um, I feellike it's unfair, because I feel
myself pulling away fromcertain individuals and I can't
put my finger on why.
They've done absolutely nothingwrong, but for some reason,
that version of me that I loveto be doesn't come out, and
(42:29):
actually, sometimes, a versionof me that I'm not wanting to be
is present.
So in that respect, I mean,we're honoring ourselves by by
stepping back and acknowledgingthat, whether it's out loud or
not, yes, no, um, absolutely Ium.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It reminds me, right, of this baseline of being if
you are not connected withyourself, you're not going me,
you know, and there's very manyversions of me, um, but like
(43:15):
this version of me, do I, youknow, do I resonate, or is it
one from the past?
I actually don't want to bethat person anymore.
I thought like I left that part, just like that particular part
, behind and therefore can I gointo connection with certain
kinds of people because Iintentionally want to, and vice
versa, right, like that theother person hopefully also
(43:38):
feels the same way, right, andthen you have something that you
can nourish and that you wantto nourish.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
So, yeah, so I'd love to know I I understand and this
might be wrong, but Iunderstand that you've kind of
gone into this realm ofloneliness and facilitating
events with curiosity to reallysee what is wanting to emerge.
Um, are you still in that phaseor are you?
(44:08):
Do you feel like you started toget under the skin of what is
wanting and you've kind of gotsome vision of how that's going
to play out in your future?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I think I'm still in the exploration um phase and I
hope it never stops.
To be very honest, um, I hope Ikeep this sense of curiosity.
I hope I keep this sense of um,yeah, the way that you know we
just talked about the the waythat my heart feels and my soul
(44:45):
feels when I am in in this workof being with others, of holding
space, of having people andoften strangers in a sense, or,
you know, people that I've notspent a lot of time with bare
their soul, in a way that is somoving to me and again seems to
(45:08):
be so needed without me beingagain seems to be so needed um,
without me being having to saylike, okay, now I'm a coach, I'm
a therapist, I'm a I don't knowwhat I, I mean, I am trying to
create those spaces, but I, I,um, I hope I don't lose that.
You know the sense and at thesame time, um, I I guess I'm
(45:33):
becoming clearer um that I wouldlove to focus my work on, on
what I'm doing, but just doingit better.
So I think there is somethingvery natural for me of, yeah,
bringing people together andlike creating this sense of
community, um, but differentfrom before, I guess it's more.
(45:54):
It feels more like small,direct, intimate, it feels
there's some, a space aroundreally cultivating and
practicing connection skills um.
So compassion and empathy,active listening and
self-reflection um shiftingperspective of me and other
(46:16):
people, presence, um, thesekinds of skills or capacities
really that are needed, I think,more so than ever, and I I want
to, yes, step into that part aswell.
So both, yes, understanding andholding space for how
loneliness one wants to be shown, um wants to be shown or made
(46:38):
visible um again, because it isstill a topic that is, yeah,
tiptoed around um often and, onthe other hand, trying to say,
like, how can we nurture thosecapacities in order to be more
able to reconnect with ourselvesand others and and the world
right at large?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
yeah, and I love that .
Just the reconnect with self,that just so resonates because I
think, through through work andbusiness of life, we can so
easily lose our essenceourselves.
And then we find ourselves,when we do get social, like what
(47:21):
, what are we talking about?
What is our conversation?
It's like we really need to goinside to start remembering what
lights us up, what we want tobe talking about, not just
allowing the narrative to justflow from our mouths on topics
that we're not even interestedin or we don't actually have our
own voice on.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
We may be just repeating somebody else's
thoughts or words rather thangoing deep to understand what we
think that's such an importantpoint because it speaks to the
fact that we've all and it'sironic because I'm speaking now
um, that we've all become soused to speaking, you know, to
(48:04):
sharing, to posting, tobroadcasting, to voicing, and to
say like, okay, I'm on thisside, I'm on this side.
I'm not with those people, I'mon this side, I'm not with those
people, I'm on this side, yes,I'm with the good ones, right,
like I'm with the ones that areright.
And I think this capacity toreally listen right to the other
person, but also to yourself,like really, really, really
(48:28):
listen, that is something thatneeds to be brought back in a
way, that needs to be nurturedand that can lead to this sense
of self-connection in a deeperway and then connection to the
other, because, ultimately, weall want to be listened to.
But the fact that we speak moreand shout louder and more
(48:51):
channels, more and more, andit's like who is even listening
to this?
Like are you still, you know?
And to pause and to say like Iactually don't know, I don't
have an answer to this, or Iactually notice right now I'm
not in the conversation, notpresent, I'm not here, I'm
(49:13):
actually thinking about my lunch, you know, or I'm thinking
about what else I have to do.
I'm going to do this.
I'm actually not here at all yetso that you know and then to be
able to ask better questions.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Yeah, and even asking questions of yourself, like,
like when you immediately think,oh, I don't have a, I don't
have a thought on this topic.
It's like no, don't know shouldnot be in our vocabulary.
Don't know simply means you'venot given yourself a chance to
think about it.
So ask yourself the questionsand then allow the pause.
(49:49):
And that pause might take you awhole hike, or you know that
pause.
It might not come instantly,but allow the pause, allow
yourself to be curious about howyou do feel on a certain topic.
And maybe that is the standardline, or maybe it's not.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
And be curious doesn't mean you need to tell
everybody, but getting a deeperknowing of self, like that's
kind of why we're here, I thinkyes, I think this contemplation,
right, this idea of, yeah, letme, hmm, sit with them, right,
let me, yeah, go for a walk, asyou, as you said, or hike, or um
(50:34):
, movement is always movement isalways wonderful.
I guess it's so helpful, right,especially when we feel like
overwhelmed or stuck.
Um, just get your body movingand you'll be like, okay, maybe
I'm just walking, you know, justtaking a walk doesn't have to
run, or um, and my, somethingmight emerge right, or this
(50:54):
thought might lead you tosomething else, um, and, and
those are the, yeah, those arethe really, really precious, uh,
in between spaces wheresomething's like oh, what was
that?
Didn't know that that was here.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Um, so yeah, was that , didn't know that that was here
.
Um.
So yeah, and what I'm justfeeling called to kind of leave
leave with from my side is when,when I had kind of gone deep
and into curiosity about myfeelings of loneliness, when I
came out the other side of it, Ireally did feel that I had been
(51:31):
missing myself.
I had been lonely because I wasmissing a version of me that
hadn't been alive for a whileand she was back or she was
returning.
I think she's still returning,but I'm really feeling a lot
closer in my connection withself.
(51:51):
But I'm really feeling a lotcloser in my connection with
self and I'd love to just putthat to you as kind of our
closing of this beautifulconversation.
Have you had any epiphaniesthrough your journey and being
really beautifully open andvocal about your experience?
What has something helped you?
Have you had an epiphany?
That's really been life, beenbeen life-changing for your
(52:11):
journey, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
It's that I've never articulated it like this, but I
think it was that for me as well.
Um, this one moment a few yearsago, when I just realized that
I had been so occupied with work, back to the work topic and
(52:37):
this idea and this mission thatI was so passionate about, and
that I kind of lost the sense ofwho is Monica without her work,
sense of who is monica withouther work.
(52:57):
What is she trying to prove sohard and try to fill so
desperately that still she can'tstop working right, because it
seems like it's not workingactually, uh, that this filling
of, of whatever wants to befilled.
So I came really to this pointwhere I felt completely lost, um
, and and very, very alone.
Uh, and luckily I had, you know, friends and also family around
(53:21):
who were still there.
When I reached back out, youknow to say, like you know what
I, I realized something Ineglected you, I, I neglected
you, I neglected me, I neglectedall the possibility of what, if
, what could have been.
And I, I remember and I stillfeel that when I share it now,
(53:42):
right, this, there's a part ofthat that's even grieving in a
way, because you're like, I wishI would have made time.
I wish I would have listened toyou, because you're an
important person to me.
You are one of my best friendsand I, you know I was there, but
I was not there.
So I think, in realizing thatand then slowly shifting things
(54:03):
and balancing right and seeing,okay, let me create space
actively, you know, get intocreative things again, try new
things actively.
You know, find back.
Find back, as you, as you said,and in that um, finding back to
the, to the relationships, thepeople that really matter to you
, and then also new onesappeared, right, that's the
(54:26):
beauty of life.
It's just like, oh, there it is, there's this person right and
that person like, wow, now newthings are weaving together.
So yes, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
That actually made me a little bit teary because I
yeah, I really resonate and justthinking back to some of the
time that's lost when peoplethat are now lost that maybe I
didn't spend as much time withthat I could have done.
So I'm thankful to havediscovered this now and to be
investing my time a little bitmore wisely same, yeah, thank
(55:02):
you so much, monica.
It's been such a delight toshare space with you.
Um, I will, of course, shareyour sub stack, your LinkedIn,
but is there anywhere else thatyou would like to direct people
to?
To your work, to your events?
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Sounds good to me, those two.
Thank you so much, shelley.
I really appreciate it.
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