July 25, 2024 • 48 mins
Sotos Poulimnos is a Director at Sun Life, and an expert in global talent management, learning, and transformation.
This episode is perfect for leaders and anyone interested in understanding how workplace culture is shaped by people and their sense of belonging, rather than physical office spaces.
During our interview, Sotos discusses the rise of hybrid work models, the impact of the pandemic on work-life balance, and the dangers of strict return-to-office mandates. He shares insights on the benefits of remote work, employee incentives that can attract and retain high performers, and the influence of corporate giants.
About Sotos Poulimnos
Sotos Poulimnos is a passionate talent management professional with rich cross-industry experience and a track record for leading complex transformations. As a Talent Transformation Leader, Lifelong Learning Architect, and DE&I Advocate, Sotos excels in full project lifecycle management, stakeholder engagement, and team coaching. He is deeply invested in the intersection of learning, leadership, and the bottom line, helping organizations lead significant transformations in their work, workforce, and workplace.
Find Sotos Poulimnos on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sotospoulimenos/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The office cannot be, and never was, a driver of
culture.
It never was the driver ofculture.
The physical space was neverthe driver for culture.
Right, it's the people thatmake the culture.
It's how you feel the sense ofbelongingness.
Now, how does that play outafter COVID?
(00:22):
Well, we demonstrated veryclearly for three years that we
don't have to be in the officeto perform.
Why are you telling me to comeback to the office?
For what?
To do what?
Because it's good for ourculture.
Guess what's going to happen ifyou bring people by force under
the threat of punishment ormissing a know, missing a
(00:44):
promotion or, you know,decreasing your pay.
Guess what's going to happen tothe culture of your company in
this same office where you'rebringing people to.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Resentment, discontent.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I don't think it's going to go well.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
My name's Shelley and today I'mwith Sotos Poulimnos.
Oh goodness.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Go again, it's easy.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Sotos Poulimnos Perfect, okay, great Been
practicing that one.
Who is here representinghimself but is also the director
of a global insurance companycalled Sun Life, which is kind
of one of the more futurelooking organizations out there.
They're leaning towards ahybrid first model, which we
(01:36):
will go into.
What hybrid first actuallymeans, maybe how this is
different from traditionalhybrid, how this is different
from remote work, and then theoffice based environments.
Sotos and I caught up a coupleof weeks back and delving into
his work.
I'm really curious about thisfor my master's thesis, which
I'm currently doing at RoyalRoads University, and I really
(01:57):
just felt like we needed achance to go deeper, so I'm
really thrilled to have Sotoshere here also as a.
Would you still call yourselfan expat or would you call
yourself an immigrant?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I don't know something.
I don't know, maybe both.
You know, I'm not an expat inthe in the sense of, you know, I
wasn't working at a company andthen that company sent me to
work for them somewhere else.
So you know, I just left myhome country, greece, and went
for my studies to the US andthen found myself in Canada.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So yeah, Well, we will unpack this journey a
little bit, because I thinkthat's why we connected really
nicely when we did.
I seem to really resonate withpeople who have traveled a lot,
lived in a lot of differentplaces.
We seem to speak the samelanguage, so thrilled to have
you here, sotos.
So, first off, why don't wetalk about how your experience
(02:56):
of the workplace has changedpre-pandemic and then going into
the now?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
There's so many things that happened in such a
short time frame that it was abit of a shock for all of us,
right as humanity, as people.
You know, our collectivepsychology, our organizational
psychology, was impacted.
Nobody could say that.
(03:24):
You know, the before and aftercovid are the same.
I think one of the bigdifferences is it has to do with
with the fact that we wereexposed to very, a very
different reality that made madeus reconsider certain certain
(03:45):
not just about work and theworkplace, but also about life.
So these two are interconnected.
Work is part of what you do whenyou live, unless you're very
lucky and you never have to work.
So I would say that people havestarted to look at especially
(04:06):
the younger members of theworkforce long work hours as a
badge of honor, Valuingwell-being and mental health and
(04:34):
physical health a bit more thana certain amount of money and
in terms of expectations fromthe workplace.
We knew from before that, asgenerations change and the
information becomes moredemocratized, people have access
(04:58):
to free learning everywhere andthey can learn just by Googling
something or going on YouTubeor TikTok or any of these
platforms to learn things.
People have started to put morevalue and have certain
expectations when it comes totheir own development at work.
(05:20):
So we don't see the traditionalloyal employee that you would
see, you know, in our, in myparents generation, where you
know they would start and wouldstay for 25, 30 years with the
same employer and the employeris going to take care of me,
right?
For a couple of reasons.
(05:41):
Number one the economy is verydifferent now than what it was
then.
You cannot afford a house, acottage and a boat on your dad's
salary with your mom and twosiblings.
That doesn't happen anymore.
So people are naturally chasingafter money.
(06:05):
So it's more likely for them tojump.
One of the factors that changethat that can change that is
development and learning at work, along with a host of other
things.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But that's one of the things that we definitely see a
trend with regards to peoplethat are either entering the
workforce or people that areleaving a certain company for a
different one, for sure.
But one thing that does come tomind for me when I was entering
the workforce and I was in PRagencies in London.
They say that now people don'tgo to work on a Friday, but for
me back then, as a young 20something, fridays were like the
(06:52):
best day to be in the office.
It was like drinks trolley cameout at 4 pm.
It was like let's get ready forthe weekend.
It's like have we lost that?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
we can.
We can still have that.
I think that now we have to bea bit more strategic about when
we're having these things happenin the workplace.
So more of an approach that hasto to do with the milestones or
(07:26):
the important times that youneed to get together, that you
need to go to the office andthrow that party, have that
strategy session and then have anice lunch or dinner.
Things like that, I think, areincreasingly becoming important
and, frankly, I see manycompanies that are imposing
(07:50):
strict mandates around return tooffice three days, four days,
five days in the office, andthere's research again and again
and again and again showingthat if you do that, you're
gonna lose people, and thepeople you're gonna lose are
your high performers, becausehigh performers know they can do
(08:13):
their job anywhere and theyknow, because exactly they're
high performers, that if theyneed to be in the office to
perform, they'll go to theoffice.
If they don't, why would theyjust to sit in front of a screen
or to be interrupted byeverybody around?
Because you know they want tochit chat or just sit at your
desk with your headset on, likenoise cancelling right, and
(08:37):
nobody talked to me.
What's the point of that?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
right.
So when people come to theoffice, we need to create
meaningful in-person experiencesso they can connect with each
other and not just be inback-to-back meetings that they
could have just been in theirhome office for.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
To a certain extent, yes.
So make it a meaningfulexperience.
Make the office a hub forcollaboration, for creativity,
for innovation, for celebration.
The office cannot be, and neverwas, a driver of culture.
It never was the driver ofculture.
The physical space was neverthe driver for culture.
(09:18):
Right, it's the people thatmake the culture.
It's how you feel the sense ofbelongingness.
Now, how does that play outafter COVID?
Well, we demonstrated veryclearly for three years that we
don't have to be in the officeto perform.
Why are you telling me to comeback to the office?
(09:38):
For what?
To do what?
Because it's good for ourculture.
Guess what's going to happen ifyou bring people by force under
the threat of punishment ormissing a promotion or
decreasing your pay.
Guess what's going to happen tothe culture of your company in
this same office where you'rebringing people to.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Resentment, discontent.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I don't think it's going to go well and that's it.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Certain teams, like I know when we spoke before and
you said the sales team do tendto come in together quite
frequently like they, maybe theythey really thrive off the
energy of each other and that'skind of just natural.
That team has chosen that theywant to be more present in the
office.
But I imagine there's otherteams of people who are much
(10:27):
more likely to just get in, getthe job done and actually their
need for the office is very low.
I guess a question that'scoming up for me is remote first
Companies, so they actuallydon't have the office base at
all.
What do you think about thedifference between that way of
doing things and actually havingan office?
(10:49):
So there's an option there foremployees.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
If it was a discussion around personal
preferences.
I prefer to have an office andthe option to go to it when I
feel that I need to go to it.
But I don't that I don't haveto go to it because I just need
to show my face and punch mycard to say that I, that I went
to the office, right, so I, Iwant to have a physical office,
(11:20):
the option for a physical officeAlso.
It's a good thing.
You change your environment.
Not all of us are lucky to have, you know, their own office at
home and and isolated like.
Not not all of us have that.
I don't have that, so I like it.
Today I'm in the office.
I came to the office because Ihad a couple of meetings that
you know.
I talked to the people and Iwas like I was like do you, do
(11:49):
you want to come to the officefor that, or were you planning
to go to the office?
And we were saying you knowwhat?
That's actually a goodopportunity.
Let's go to the office, let'smeet, let's grab lunch together,
right?
You see how different theinteraction is there.
How you add meaning to it andweight, special weight to the
interaction, it becomessomething more than just we're
getting on a Zoom call, forexample.
We can do that right, but whydon't we grab lunch, so we can
(12:11):
have the meeting in person andthen grab lunch together and we
can laugh and drink somethingright.
So it's very different.
I've never worked for a companythat was remote, only granted
before COVID.
I don't know many companiesthat were.
There were some, but not many.
As you mentioned.
(12:35):
There are certain teams, again,not just at my company.
In general, this is such a.
It's a very personal matter.
You know your team better thananyone else.
You know whether your teamprefers to be in person or not.
You know whether the functionthat your team performs needs to
(12:58):
happen in person at the officeor not.
If there's a question mark there, this is your opportunity to
question a little bit the statusquo and say do I really need to
bring them into the officethree days a week?
What if the entire team isdistributed across different
(13:18):
offices?
Does this mean that each personneeds to go as a unit, single
unit, in the office even thoughthey're in different offices,
because I've seen that?
Or does Shelly need to go tothe office when in downtown
Toronto, when her leader is inthe United States?
(13:40):
So, regardless of whetherthey're in the office or not,
they're not going to see eachother physically.
What function are we serving bybringing people in the office?
And these are not easy.
I don't have the answers to allthese things, but what I do
know is that, as an adultprofessional, I know when it
(14:03):
makes sense to come in and whenit doesn't.
I know what I can do from homeand what I should be doing at
the office.
And another thing isproductivity when working from
home.
There were, like certainresearchers that came out early
(14:25):
after you know, the big covidwaves right went away and
companies were starting to talkabout return to office.
There were some researchersthat came out that were talking
about oh, when you're at home,you're less productive.
A lot of these companiesclearly demonstrated ties.
There was a conflict ofinterest, let's say, between who
(14:48):
was pushing for these researchpapers to come out.
This is public information.
I'm not calling anyone outspecifically, but you can look
it up.
And it was really weird becauseyou would hear these things.
You would hear that, oh, thisresearch came out and said that
people working from home areless productive.
(15:09):
And I was thinking to myself.
I was thinking well, when I'mworking from home, a, I'm less
tired in the morning because Idon't have to wake up two hours
earlier to drive or to take thesubway.
Right, I spend less moneybecause I can cook at home.
I can eat something at home,and not only that.
(15:32):
But I most likely won't closemy laptop at 4.30 or 5 and say,
okay, I'm done and done, I'm nottouching it again.
What usually happens is I pause, I'll make something to eat,
I'll go back, I'll take a walkwith my dog for 20 minutes, I'll
(15:56):
come back.
And these are the rechargeinterims that help you keep
going.
Interim's that help you keepgoing, and this is why I find
myself sitting with my laptop onmy couch watching TV,
responding to emails at seven,eight.
If I were in the office, I,having woken up at 6.30 am, come
(16:21):
to the office by 8, 8.30, thenleave the office by 5, traffic,
et cetera, et cetera, get backhome at 7.
How many hours of productivityhave I lost there that I?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
would otherwise.
And then you're done Likethere's no time.
And then I'm done.
I'm not like once.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I shut my laptop at work and I'm in the car.
That's it.
I'm done Like it's not openingit, like it's not turning on
again, right?
So these are things that andagain these are.
There's always kind of we needto think about the context here
in every situation.
I'm not saying there's like oneblanket solution for everyone.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
What I'm saying is that we need to consider these
opportunities to tailor theemployee experience depending on
who the employee is everynewspaper article as factually
(17:26):
correct and bring all of youremployees back into the office,
because you've seen one statthat says about productivity and
maybe looking at your, lookingat your organization, and how
productivity has has shifted alot of it is, you know, like
monkey.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
See monkey do so.
If, if the alpha monkey, thegoogles of the world or the
microsoft of the world or youknow whatever, depending on the
industry come out, amazon, andsay we're mandating people back
to the office because that's themost productive thing, people
won't even ask, won't evenquestion it.
(17:57):
That's the alpha monkey doingsomething.
You're just gonna followbecause they know something.
Well, guess what.
Going to follow because theyknow something.
Well, guess what?
Most of the time they knowsomething, but it's not what you
think.
It is right.
There's so many differentthings.
There's so many different.
As I said, there's a lot ofmoney to be made by maintaining
(18:17):
the status quo and there's a lotof money to be made by
challenging it.
It's just different types ofmoney, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was surprised that Elon Musk was in the camp of
bringing people back.
I don't know why that surprisedme, but it did.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah Well, I think that he has a very interesting
leadership style.
Um, do I agree with elon musk'sleadership leadership style?
Not necessarily, but then whocares, right?
Um, all I'm saying is elon, ifyou're watching this.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
We all love you.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I don't love you, elon, but but it's OK, and you
don't need to love me either.
Maybe if we get to know eachother, the what I was going to
say is, again, it all, it allhas to do with the decision
maker.
Right?
If the decision maker has theirmindset on a certain way
there's two there's not manythings you can do to change
(19:27):
their opinion on the matter.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
If someone is used to working in an office with all
their employees like looking atthe bullpen and having them all
there, and that has been theirway of working for the past 15,
20, 25 years, and that's howthey were successful, because
they were controlling andcommanding like this guess what
(19:53):
they're gonna they're gonna wantto have to go back to yeah, no,
that's really evocativeactually, because I know like
when I deliver workshops inperson and I have a circle of
people around me and I'mdelivering for like 90 minutes,
I leave that workshop feeling,feeling elevated, really feeling
(20:13):
the energy.
So I can almost empathize withthe experience of wow, yeah, not
having the people that you haveworked up your corporate ladder
to um to to work with.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, that's, I hadn't really felt that but
surely this conversation you see, this is a great comment that
you're making.
Here's the big differenceworking every day at the office
has nothing to do with yourexperience when you're going
into a finite workshop.
These are two different things.
(20:52):
Nothing can replace in-personinteraction, nothing can.
Nothing can replace in-personlearning, nothing.
We're not saying this shouldnot happen.
We're just saying that now weneed to be smart around when
this is happening.
We need to have a purpose,right.
(21:16):
If you have a workshop yeah,don't do it virtually, depending
on the type of workshop, to behonest.
Yeah, don't do it virtually,depending on the type of
workshop, to be honest, but morelikely than not, you'll get
more value out of bringing thesepeople together.
It's similar to the thing, it'ssimilar to, you know, before
(21:36):
COVID, when we were doing thesebig in-person events, learning
events, right, and you wouldbring 100 people and you would
say this is a great trainingwith 100 people.
It's not.
This is a great training with ahundred people.
It's not.
It's not a great training witha hundred people.
And also, they didn't need tobe in person to do this training
this 100 people, right.
It's a different thing to bring10 people, 15 people, up to 20,
(21:58):
let's say, together to reflect,to mentor each other, to learn
from each other, to try thingsout there tangibly and fail
together.
And a different thing to createa town hall and bring everyone
in just to say that this is anin-person event.
Right, there are so manyvariables that that we need to
(22:20):
consider and a lot of them haveimplications behavioral
implications, learningimplications, psychological
implications on the participantsthat we tend to not really
think about.
Because why?
Because this is how it's alwaysbeen done, that's how we did it
before COVID, so that's howwe're going to do it after, how
(22:41):
it's always been done.
That's how we did it beforeCOVID, so that's how we're going
to do it after.
There's a very, very importantmoderator there between the
before and after, and that's thethree years of COVID that
really taught us many, manythings about ourselves the way
we operate, the way we can run abusiness, the way we learn, the
way we raise our children right.
(23:02):
So many things.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
One of the really beautiful initiatives that you
shared with me when we initiallyspoke was this new opportunity
for employees to work fromanywhere for a month.
Is it a month a year, or is itjust a one-off?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
yeah, many companies are are offering similar um,
similar um, let's say benefits,because that's what it really is
, um, it's a really good benefit.
I won't lie to you.
Today I was talking to someonefrom a different company, um,
the other week I was talkingabout it with someone from the
UK actually and they weretelling me their company allows
(23:46):
that as well.
So I see more and morecompanies providing that kind of
benefit the work fromeverywhere benefit.
For, you know, as long as youhave the appropriate work
permits, right, and as long asyou're going in a country where
your organization, um, doesn'tconsider a risk, right, so, for
(24:10):
example, a war zone, okay,you're not, probably not,
allowed to work from a war zone,um, or you cannot really go,
for example, as a europeancitizen.
You cannot really go, forexample, as a European citizen.
You cannot just go to the USand work from there if you don't
have a work permit.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Right, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So there are some limitations and depending on the
legislation you know, taxmandates of each country, some
countries are 20 days a yearwork days a year, some are 10,
some are 15, some are five rightDepends on the country and
their own kind of legislationand tax system.
(24:49):
But it is something that ithelped me a lot personally when
I needed to take because Ididn't use it to necessarily
vacation and work from my homecountry, greece.
I went there during the winterbecause there was a family
emergency and I was going totake a leave of absence and
(25:14):
essentially not get paid duringmy absence, and my leader came
to me and said listen, did youknow that?
We have?
This policy was new.
You can actually work fromthere.
If you have the appropriate,you know work permits, which I
do.
You can just go and work fromthere.
(25:37):
We'll figure out how you'regoing to be working, what hours
you're going to be working.
It's going to be working.
What hours you're going to beworking.
It's going to be core.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Canada hours.
It's going to be how, however,you know that would be working
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So, but you know what ?
We made it work and it workedbeautifully and I got to spend
time with uh, with those familymembers that otherwise I
wouldn't have, um, and that wasall thanks to this policy and so
you hadn't heard about thepolicy before you suggested is
is that policy now somethingwhere that, that Sun Life is
(26:10):
promoting, or is it more a?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
as people hear about it, then they might start asking
to take it up there was.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
There was a promotion period that apparently I missed
out on, like I didn't see thatnot reading all your internal
comms?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
yeah, um, so um I used to be in internal comms, so
it was it was it was promotedinternally.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
But yeah, it was, it was somewhere.
So I think benefits like thatkind of spread like wildfire
after a few people that are theformal or informal leaders in
the organization have used themand are happy with them.
Similar to learning programsand you see a list of learning
programs.
Like which one should I go to?
(26:54):
Oh, you know, shelly told methis one is really good.
I really trust shelly, I'mgonna go to that one similar
with that.
So I talked to people about myexperience doing that and guess
what, like a bunch of people,because I talked about it, went
and did it amazing, and I betthey really thanked you for that
as well well, they thanked thecompany yes because I didn't
(27:17):
make the policy um.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So social well-being is an area that I'm particularly
interested in and that's reallywhat I'm delving into in my
thesis, and I do wonder, likeanecdotally personally, has the
shift like during and postpandemic had had much bearing on
your social well-being?
(27:41):
Like are your social needs?
Was the work environment kindof satisfying a lot of your
social needs or have you managedto find a balance, kind of
outside work and being in theoffice enough to satisfy that?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well, that's a great question.
I I can't really tell.
I'll tell you what.
Before before covid, I wasworking in consulting.
I was a traveling consultant.
So every week I would, frommonday through thursday or
sometimes friday, I would bewherever the client was.
I I would get on a plane, gothere, live at a hotel.
(28:23):
So I wasn't really at mycompany's office with my
colleagues.
I was wherever the client wasthree months here, six months
there, four months the otherplace, a year somewhere else,
year somewhere else.
So I didn't really crave.
(28:44):
You know the traditional let mego to my desk thing, because I
didn't really have it for a longtime and I thrived not having
it.
So I don't know if that answers, partially at least, the
question for me personally, Idon't think it changed.
(29:07):
I did miss seeing people duringCOVID.
Everybody did.
Even if you're the mostintroverted person, you miss
seeing people.
You need to talk to someoneelse.
You have your partner at homeand your kids and your dog and
that's all you see all daybecause you have to work from
the kitchen table, right?
So you want to see people.
Did that necessarily change theway I think, the way I feel
(29:31):
about socializing and the way Isocialize, not really.
I think it actually reinforcedmy, my, my preferences with
regards to that because, then Igot to bring like I love hosting
people right during COVID.
We couldn't do that.
Now I got back to doing thatand I'm I'm thinking you know
(29:53):
that's great, like I missed that.
I love doing that again.
So it was more, more like thatfor me.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So it was more like that for me.
Okay, so last real topic that Iwould love to run by you is
emerging technology, and youknow there's a lot of debates
over which way it's all going atthe moment.
I like to think of everythinghappening for the good of
society, so I really try andkeep my mind on the positive.
(30:24):
Do you think that we canembrace emerging technology to
enhance, enhance connection,enhance, um the way that we work
with our teams, whether it's inperson, remotely?
Do you think, do you think we,do you think technology can help
(30:45):
us?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
are we talking about ai or, in general, technology?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
and the metaverse as well.
The metaverse is something thatI've been really interested in,
like pre-ai.
It kind of took a back seat assoon as ai took off, um, but the
metaverse is certainly an areathat I see us spending more time
like.
I was reading an articleyesterday and it was saying how,
just walking around the, theold office, the office of the
(31:14):
old days, when you had your owndesks and you'd have like a
picture of your partner or yourdog and as people walk by, or
you might have a picture with asoccer jersey on it and people
walk by and know that, oh, yousupport that team and like
starting to be able to paint apicture of you based on your
desk.
And it just got me thinkingabout, well, when we're, when we
all have our offices in themetaverse, then we could totally
(31:37):
like make it ourselves and makeit so people can walk up and,
um, I'm uh, I'm very connectedwith a company called so work
and they, they're currentlydoing this.
Um, it currently um it looksvery gamey.
It doesn't look like thisbeautiful aesthetic office that
(31:58):
I have in my mind Imagine.
It does feel a lot morelifelike.
So I don't think we're thereyet in terms of technology, but
I think it's coming.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I have conflicting thoughts about, specifically,
the metaverse.
We know that Meta or Facebookand Mark Zuckerberg who, mark,
if you're listening to us, Idon't particularly like you
either, but we can meet eachother and maybe this will change
(32:35):
.
What I was going to say is weknow that they spend a lot of
money and effort and brains andblood, sweat and tears in
creating something that didn'tnecessarily have the roi that
we're expecting, so that's not.
(32:56):
That should not be the onlyindicator of where these things
are going, because sometimessociety is not ready or
technology is not there yet.
I do think that it could replace, potentially, part of how we do
our job, similar to how zoomreplaced us getting in person
but it will never replace and Iwill go on record saying that it
(33:21):
will never replace the reallife experience that you have
with people, and even if we feelthat momentarily it replaces
that, in the long term we'll seethings that start popping up
because you're lacking, startpopping up because you're
(33:42):
lacking.
You're lacking this tactileexperience of touching the nice
couch in your office or hugginga colleague, or smelling
someone's perfume, or going tothe cafeteria and eating
together.
You're missing out on thesethings and these are core
(34:02):
behavioral.
You know know, these are likeschemata that we have in our in
our brains, around how, how theworld works.
Our brains are not evolved tobe in front of a screen the
whole day, and that's why wetalked about covid fatigue and
Zoom fatigue.
Right, because our brains arenot there yet.
(34:23):
Our brains are more this inperson, not what we're doing now
on Zoom.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Totally yes.
Yes, and kind of that's delvinginto kind of digital wellbeing.
And I wonder if you found anypractices yourself so that
you're not when you're workingfrom home, so you're not staring
at a screen from the moment youstart work to the moment you
kind of put your laptop down.
Do you have any practices whereyou're like, ok, I can read
this offline, I can plan thisoffline.
(34:55):
Do you put any kind of digitalboundaries on yourself for your
the health of your eyes, ifnothing else?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
boundaries on yourself for your the health of
your eyes, if nothing else, wellthat's.
That's a tough one, because, nomatter whether you're, you know
you can be at the office, youcan be at home, you can be in
your car or on the beach, aslong as you're working.
You have to work with a screenmost of the time.
Right 90 of the time there'sgoing to be these meetings that
you don't need a laptop, buteven in these meetings you'll
have your laptop in front of youtaking notes or finding
(35:27):
something, so you're going to belooking at the screen.
So that's why it's a tricky one.
What I do is like an exercisethat someone taught me from my
previous job when COVID startedand we started to work from home
my previous job when COVIDstarted and we started to work
(35:51):
from home, and they taught me tofocus somewhere outside of my
immediate environment.
So look at the window.
It doesn't need to be beautiful.
It can be literally an uglybuilding across the street.
Just focus on one tiny detailof this building, for example,
and spend about a minute or twojust looking at that and
thinking about that particular,one particular window.
(36:13):
That's very dirty and I can seeit from here, and there's a
curtain that's half hangingthere.
How can it be inside the house,the apartment, who lives there?
What does it smell?
So you think about it, you getyourself out of the, the
environment for a minute or twoand then you come back.
So you've done two thingsyou've given your, your brain, a
(36:36):
break by thinking somethingcompletely different.
Creative.
You, you wonder right.
And your eyes, because from thenear focus on the screen, the
crystals on the screen, you'refocusing on a real life thing
that exists right there.
(36:56):
So it has helped me a lot.
I'm lucky enough to have a.
We are relatively low in thecondo that we live, we're like
on the fourth floor.
So the trees, the surroundingtrees, we can see them from our
windows and you know we havesquirrels and we have little
(37:17):
birds and all that.
So that's what I do and allthat.
So that's what I do.
I just take a minute or twoevery now and then to just focus
on something else, think aboutit, fantasize.
And then also, what people do,and I try to do as well, is
don't sit for too long If you'reon a call and you're working
(37:41):
from home and you don't need tobe on camera, I don't know, pick
up a duster and, while you'reon the call, dust and you'll see
that you'll be even morefocused when you do that on the
call, by the way rather thanactually just being on your
phone.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
But they can't see because they've got the screen
there and you're just likeexactly so sounds like a better
use of your fine.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Exactly, find opportunities to to move, and
for people with with ADHD, itactually helps because you
you're doing something you knowwith with your hands, which
means that your brain can focuson what's being discussed.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
So that's another thing that I've found useful
totally, and I was just thinkingof those instances where, you
know, on a on a meeting, maybethere's going to be you know
three or four presenters, butthen there's a whole field of
faces and it's like why?
Why do we need to have ourcameras on at these points?
(38:41):
Is it just to show presence orto show reaction, so the
speakers don't speak, feel likethey're speaking to no one?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
there was definitely that debate going around because
some people would just alwayshave cameras off and some people
would always have them on youremember how we said that coming
into the office should becomepart of the experience and we
need to be mindful around whenwe're bringing people to the
office.
Just because the office existsdoesn't mean that it needs to be
(39:12):
full of people all the time.
Similarly, when you're gettingon a Zoom call, just because you
have the opportunity to turn onthe camera doesn't mean that
you should have the camera onall the time when there's a
speaker, and when there's fourspeakers, hello sorry, so just
one sec.
You just need to grab somethingI I love these impromptu kind of
(39:38):
like I'm here and I just goingto tell you what I need to tell
you, and it makes me smile andthis is another benefit that we
get Right now.
We just had this wonderfulbreak when this little one came
in and said hey, I need to movethis.
What was it like?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
a chair or something, just a stool Right.
Can you help?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
me, mom Right, and look at you smiling.
Look at all the chemicals thatare coming through from your
brain to your body right now,just because we had this
experience.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I don't even remember what we were talking
about.
I don't know, but it's justbringing me back to that vision
of the desk with the photo andit's like, well, you've just had
a live photo of, you've got aninsight into my life.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Yeah, so yeah, now I remember it because you said so.
We were talking about camerason versus cameras off.
So if you have a meeting withup to, let's say, if it's an
intimate meeting and you knowwhen a meeting is intimate,
don't try to quantify it.
Don't say you know, oh, if it'slike five to 10 people, then
it's intimate.
(40:40):
If it's like 11, it's notintimate.
That If it's like five to 10people, then it's intimate.
If it's like 11, it's notintimate.
That's not how it works.
You know when a meeting isintimate.
When you know when a meetingneeds to be intimate, that's
when you need the cameras to beon.
If you have a meeting with 30people, 40 people, a hundred
people, right During COVID,let's say, and you're just
asking a hundred people to turntheir cameras on, first of all,
this is going to destroy yourbandwidth.
(41:00):
Number one, number two you'renot going to be able to focus on
anyone because there's so many.
Why don't you just spotlightthe two main speakers and
whoever comes on mic, you know,turns on their mic to say
something or ask a question.
You spotlight them for likethese two, three seconds and
then you take them off again andpeople don't even need to have
(41:21):
their cameras on, because what'sthe point?
Right, it's not an intimatesetting, doesn't need to be an
intimate setting.
If you're doing virtualcoaching, group coaching, that's
a very intimate setting.
You need to have the cameras on, but that's exactly what we say
that group coaching, forexample, cannot happen with more
than 12 people.
(41:41):
It's eight to 12 people.
We don't do more than that,because then you know, either in
person or virtually, it becomesa town hall.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So, as we begin to wrap up this beautiful
conversation, I wonder in anideal world?
So right now you have heaps offlexibility, which sounds
perfect In an ideal world.
Given that flexibility, howoften do you tend to want to be
(42:16):
in the office?
And, as a build to that, howoften would you love to have all
of your team and potentiallykind of the whole team in one
place, and that doesn'tnecessarily have to be the
office environment?
But how many touch points doyou think like per month or
potentially per year, to reallyfeel like you are one team
(42:40):
together?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
like you are one, one team together.
I will respond in a typicalconsultant way, saying which is
it depends um a good rule ofthumb in would definitely say
get together once a month.
Personally, I come into theoffice because I want to, not
(43:15):
because I have to, and it'squite the drive for me to come
to the office, but still, yousee, I'm coming because there's
a reason.
Once a week, for sure,sometimes two.
Last week I came in four daysbecause every day there was
something that I needed to.
I was meeting someone, or wewere celebrating something, or
(43:39):
there was a workshop thing orthere was a workshop.
So I think, again, as I said it,it really depends on the phase
that you're in with your team,with your function, the time of
the year here in canada, youcan't really expect people to
travel when it's snowing likecrazy, no matter how many days
(43:59):
you have mandated.
Even before covid, when itsnowed, people would stare right
and they wouldn't work at all.
But now they have their laptops, so at least they can, they can
keep working, you see, sothere's something that
everybody's gaining from this,right let's, let's be honest
about that and and find a middleground that that works for
(44:19):
everybody and how did you feelafter those four days, because I
imagine that that's quiteunusual for you to actually be
in the office four days did you?
how was your?
Speaker 2 (44:29):
how was your energy?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
because I wasn't in the office for four days, even
before COVID, I was not, Iwasn't at my office, I was
wherever the client was, andthen on the plane and then a
hotel, right.
Um, it was exhausting and itmade me appreciate again.
You know, I thought how lucky Iam to be working, because I
(45:02):
paid about $80 in gas just todrive back and from, from and to
, plus $25 a day for parking,plus whatever you would eat,
(45:22):
plus whatever you would eat.
So we're talking about asubstantial amount of money.
And then every time I wouldtake about an hour each way.
So put that together andcumulatively it really dawns on
(45:42):
you and you're thinking, wow, Ican't believe that people used
to do that Right, and I washappy to do it because it was,
you know, the circumstancerequired.
I was actually talking to afriend here about this and I was
(46:02):
saying you know, whenever Icome to the office, I make sure
to know at least one or twopeople that are in the office
too, so that we can grab lunchor we can grab dinner afterwards
, because these are the thingsthat get you going right,
motivate you.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
A hundred percent.
And interestingly I'll justshare a friend of mine.
Their company has mandated twodays in the office.
She's got two young children,so on one hand she's kind of
frustrated but on the other hand, um, she doesn't live in in
(46:39):
central London anymore so it'sforcing her to to go back into
London and then she does thenarrange things with friends for
afterwards to like help motivateher.
So she's almost she knows thatshe wouldn't be going into the
office if it wasn't mandated.
But actually she's a littlethankful because it's giving her
that balance of life thatotherwise she would just be, you
(47:02):
know, doing, doing nurseryschool pickup and all that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
You know I'll say everything fades away.
Nothing stays new forever.
Working from home fades away.
Working from the office fadesaway.
Coming to the office and thenhaving drinks with friends that
fades away too.
So it's part of the naturalevolution of human behavior.
(47:30):
We always want to change thingsaround or we're very
comfortable keeping thingsexactly the same they are if
they work for us well.
I just think we need to beflexible and open to figuring
out what's needed at each pointin time.
Having our ears open to listenright to the environment, kind
(47:56):
of these cues that sometimes ittakes a double take for you to
figure out what's happeningthere, because these are
eventually the moments thatmatter in the employee
experience.
That's how I see it.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
So, tos, it's been a pleasure to get to know you, to
get under the skin of how you'reworking, how you're thriving in
this new way, the new normal,as we were all calling it a
while back.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
I really hope we'll stay intouch.
I'm excited to see and learnwhat happens next in all of
these kind of different ways ofworking.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Thank you very much for having me, shelley.
It was an absolute pleasure and, yes, we will stay in touch and
keep talking.
The office cannot be, and never was, a driver of
culture.
It never was the driver ofculture.
The physical space was neverthe driver for culture.
Right, it's the people thatmake the culture.
It's how you feel the sense ofbelongingness.
Now, how does that play outafter COVID?
(00:22):
Well, we demonstrated veryclearly for three years that we
don't have to be in the officeto perform.
Why are you telling me to comeback to the office?
For what?
To do what?
Because it's good for ourculture.
Guess what's going to happen ifyou bring people by force under
the threat of punishment ormissing a know, missing a
(00:44):
promotion or, you know,decreasing your pay.
Guess what's going to happen tothe culture of your company in
this same office where you'rebringing people to.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Resentment, discontent.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I don't think it's going to go well.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
My name's Shelley and today I'mwith Sotos Poulimnos.
Oh goodness.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Go again, it's easy.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Sotos Poulimnos Perfect, okay, great Been
practicing that one.
Who is here representinghimself but is also the director
of a global insurance companycalled Sun Life, which is kind
of one of the more futurelooking organizations out there.
They're leaning towards ahybrid first model, which we
(01:36):
will go into.
What hybrid first actuallymeans, maybe how this is
different from traditionalhybrid, how this is different
from remote work, and then theoffice based environments.
Sotos and I caught up a coupleof weeks back and delving into
his work.
I'm really curious about thisfor my master's thesis, which
I'm currently doing at RoyalRoads University, and I really
(01:57):
just felt like we needed achance to go deeper, so I'm
really thrilled to have Sotoshere here also as a.
Would you still call yourselfan expat or would you call
yourself an immigrant?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I don't know something.
I don't know, maybe both.
You know, I'm not an expat inthe in the sense of, you know, I
wasn't working at a company andthen that company sent me to
work for them somewhere else.
So you know, I just left myhome country, greece, and went
for my studies to the US andthen found myself in Canada.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So yeah, Well, we will unpack this journey a
little bit, because I thinkthat's why we connected really
nicely when we did.
I seem to really resonate withpeople who have traveled a lot,
lived in a lot of differentplaces.
We seem to speak the samelanguage, so thrilled to have
you here, sotos.
So, first off, why don't wetalk about how your experience
(02:56):
of the workplace has changedpre-pandemic and then going into
the now?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
There's so many things that happened in such a
short time frame that it was abit of a shock for all of us,
right as humanity, as people.
You know, our collectivepsychology, our organizational
psychology, was impacted.
Nobody could say that.
(03:24):
You know, the before and aftercovid are the same.
I think one of the bigdifferences is it has to do with
with the fact that we wereexposed to very, a very
different reality that made madeus reconsider certain certain
(03:45):
not just about work and theworkplace, but also about life.
So these two are interconnected.
Work is part of what you do whenyou live, unless you're very
lucky and you never have to work.
So I would say that people havestarted to look at especially
(04:06):
the younger members of theworkforce long work hours as a
badge of honor, Valuingwell-being and mental health and
(04:34):
physical health a bit more thana certain amount of money and
in terms of expectations fromthe workplace.
We knew from before that, asgenerations change and the
information becomes moredemocratized, people have access
(04:58):
to free learning everywhere andthey can learn just by Googling
something or going on YouTubeor TikTok or any of these
platforms to learn things.
People have started to put morevalue and have certain
expectations when it comes totheir own development at work.
(05:20):
So we don't see the traditionalloyal employee that you would
see, you know, in our, in myparents generation, where you
know they would start and wouldstay for 25, 30 years with the
same employer and the employeris going to take care of me,
right?
For a couple of reasons.
(05:41):
Number one the economy is verydifferent now than what it was
then.
You cannot afford a house, acottage and a boat on your dad's
salary with your mom and twosiblings.
That doesn't happen anymore.
So people are naturally chasingafter money.
(06:05):
So it's more likely for them tojump.
One of the factors that changethat that can change that is
development and learning at work, along with a host of other
things.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But that's one of the things that we definitely see a
trend with regards to peoplethat are either entering the
workforce or people that areleaving a certain company for a
different one, for sure.
But one thing that does come tomind for me when I was entering
the workforce and I was in PRagencies in London.
They say that now people don'tgo to work on a Friday, but for
me back then, as a young 20something, fridays were like the
(06:52):
best day to be in the office.
It was like drinks trolley cameout at 4 pm.
It was like let's get ready forthe weekend.
It's like have we lost that?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
we can.
We can still have that.
I think that now we have to bea bit more strategic about when
we're having these things happenin the workplace.
So more of an approach that hasto to do with the milestones or
(07:26):
the important times that youneed to get together, that you
need to go to the office andthrow that party, have that
strategy session and then have anice lunch or dinner.
Things like that, I think, areincreasingly becoming important
and, frankly, I see manycompanies that are imposing
(07:50):
strict mandates around return tooffice three days, four days,
five days in the office, andthere's research again and again
and again and again showingthat if you do that, you're
gonna lose people, and thepeople you're gonna lose are
your high performers, becausehigh performers know they can do
(08:13):
their job anywhere and theyknow, because exactly they're
high performers, that if theyneed to be in the office to
perform, they'll go to theoffice.
If they don't, why would theyjust to sit in front of a screen
or to be interrupted byeverybody around?
Because you know they want tochit chat or just sit at your
desk with your headset on, likenoise cancelling right, and
(08:37):
nobody talked to me.
What's the point of that?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
right.
So when people come to theoffice, we need to create
meaningful in-person experiencesso they can connect with each
other and not just be inback-to-back meetings that they
could have just been in theirhome office for.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
To a certain extent, yes.
So make it a meaningfulexperience.
Make the office a hub forcollaboration, for creativity,
for innovation, for celebration.
The office cannot be, and neverwas, a driver of culture.
It never was the driver ofculture.
The physical space was neverthe driver for culture.
(09:18):
Right, it's the people thatmake the culture.
It's how you feel the sense ofbelongingness.
Now, how does that play outafter COVID?
Well, we demonstrated veryclearly for three years that we
don't have to be in the officeto perform.
Why are you telling me to comeback to the office?
(09:38):
For what?
To do what?
Because it's good for ourculture.
Guess what's going to happen ifyou bring people by force under
the threat of punishment ormissing a promotion or
decreasing your pay.
Guess what's going to happen tothe culture of your company in
this same office where you'rebringing people to.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Resentment, discontent.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I don't think it's going to go well and that's it.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Certain teams, like I know when we spoke before and
you said the sales team do tendto come in together quite
frequently like they, maybe theythey really thrive off the
energy of each other and that'skind of just natural.
That team has chosen that theywant to be more present in the
office.
But I imagine there's otherteams of people who are much
(10:27):
more likely to just get in, getthe job done and actually their
need for the office is very low.
I guess a question that'scoming up for me is remote first
Companies, so they actuallydon't have the office base at
all.
What do you think about thedifference between that way of
doing things and actually havingan office?
(10:49):
So there's an option there foremployees.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
If it was a discussion around personal
preferences.
I prefer to have an office andthe option to go to it when I
feel that I need to go to it.
But I don't that I don't haveto go to it because I just need
to show my face and punch mycard to say that I, that I went
to the office, right, so I, Iwant to have a physical office,
(11:20):
the option for a physical officeAlso.
It's a good thing.
You change your environment.
Not all of us are lucky to have, you know, their own office at
home and and isolated like.
Not not all of us have that.
I don't have that, so I like it.
Today I'm in the office.
I came to the office because Ihad a couple of meetings that
you know.
I talked to the people and Iwas like I was like do you, do
(11:49):
you want to come to the officefor that, or were you planning
to go to the office?
And we were saying you knowwhat?
That's actually a goodopportunity.
Let's go to the office, let'smeet, let's grab lunch together,
right?
You see how different theinteraction is there.
How you add meaning to it andweight, special weight to the
interaction, it becomessomething more than just we're
getting on a Zoom call, forexample.
We can do that right, but whydon't we grab lunch, so we can
(12:11):
have the meeting in person andthen grab lunch together and we
can laugh and drink somethingright.
So it's very different.
I've never worked for a companythat was remote, only granted
before COVID.
I don't know many companiesthat were.
There were some, but not many.
As you mentioned.
(12:35):
There are certain teams, again,not just at my company.
In general, this is such a.
It's a very personal matter.
You know your team better thananyone else.
You know whether your teamprefers to be in person or not.
You know whether the functionthat your team performs needs to
(12:58):
happen in person at the officeor not.
If there's a question mark there, this is your opportunity to
question a little bit the statusquo and say do I really need to
bring them into the officethree days a week?
What if the entire team isdistributed across different
(13:18):
offices?
Does this mean that each personneeds to go as a unit, single
unit, in the office even thoughthey're in different offices,
because I've seen that?
Or does Shelly need to go tothe office when in downtown
Toronto, when her leader is inthe United States?
(13:40):
So, regardless of whetherthey're in the office or not,
they're not going to see eachother physically.
What function are we serving bybringing people in the office?
And these are not easy.
I don't have the answers to allthese things, but what I do
know is that, as an adultprofessional, I know when it
(14:03):
makes sense to come in and whenit doesn't.
I know what I can do from homeand what I should be doing at
the office.
And another thing isproductivity when working from
home.
There were, like certainresearchers that came out early
(14:25):
after you know, the big covidwaves right went away and
companies were starting to talkabout return to office.
There were some researchersthat came out that were talking
about oh, when you're at home,you're less productive.
A lot of these companiesclearly demonstrated ties.
There was a conflict ofinterest, let's say, between who
(14:48):
was pushing for these researchpapers to come out.
This is public information.
I'm not calling anyone outspecifically, but you can look
it up.
And it was really weird becauseyou would hear these things.
You would hear that, oh, thisresearch came out and said that
people working from home areless productive.
(15:09):
And I was thinking to myself.
I was thinking well, when I'mworking from home, a, I'm less
tired in the morning because Idon't have to wake up two hours
earlier to drive or to take thesubway.
Right, I spend less moneybecause I can cook at home.
I can eat something at home,and not only that.
(15:32):
But I most likely won't closemy laptop at 4.30 or 5 and say,
okay, I'm done and done, I'm nottouching it again.
What usually happens is I pause, I'll make something to eat,
I'll go back, I'll take a walkwith my dog for 20 minutes, I'll
(15:56):
come back.
And these are the rechargeinterims that help you keep
going.
Interim's that help you keepgoing, and this is why I find
myself sitting with my laptop onmy couch watching TV,
responding to emails at seven,eight.
If I were in the office, I,having woken up at 6.30 am, come
(16:21):
to the office by 8, 8.30, thenleave the office by 5, traffic,
et cetera, et cetera, get backhome at 7.
How many hours of productivityhave I lost there that I?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
would otherwise.
And then you're done Likethere's no time.
And then I'm done.
I'm not like once.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I shut my laptop at work and I'm in the car.
That's it.
I'm done Like it's not openingit, like it's not turning on
again, right?
So these are things that andagain these are.
There's always kind of we needto think about the context here
in every situation.
I'm not saying there's like oneblanket solution for everyone.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
What I'm saying is that we need to consider these
opportunities to tailor theemployee experience depending on
who the employee is everynewspaper article as factually
(17:26):
correct and bring all of youremployees back into the office,
because you've seen one statthat says about productivity and
maybe looking at your, lookingat your organization, and how
productivity has has shifted alot of it is, you know, like
monkey.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
See monkey do so.
If, if the alpha monkey, thegoogles of the world or the
microsoft of the world or youknow whatever, depending on the
industry come out, amazon, andsay we're mandating people back
to the office because that's themost productive thing, people
won't even ask, won't evenquestion it.
(17:57):
That's the alpha monkey doingsomething.
You're just gonna followbecause they know something.
Well, guess what.
Going to follow because theyknow something.
Well, guess what?
Most of the time they knowsomething, but it's not what you
think.
It is right.
There's so many differentthings.
There's so many different.
As I said, there's a lot ofmoney to be made by maintaining
(18:17):
the status quo and there's a lotof money to be made by
challenging it.
It's just different types ofmoney, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was surprised that Elon Musk was in the camp of
bringing people back.
I don't know why that surprisedme, but it did.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah Well, I think that he has a very interesting
leadership style.
Um, do I agree with elon musk'sleadership leadership style?
Not necessarily, but then whocares, right?
Um, all I'm saying is elon, ifyou're watching this.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
We all love you.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I don't love you, elon, but but it's OK, and you
don't need to love me either.
Maybe if we get to know eachother, the what I was going to
say is, again, it all, it allhas to do with the decision
maker.
Right?
If the decision maker has theirmindset on a certain way
there's two there's not manythings you can do to change
(19:27):
their opinion on the matter.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
If someone is used to working in an office with all
their employees like looking atthe bullpen and having them all
there, and that has been theirway of working for the past 15,
20, 25 years, and that's howthey were successful, because
they were controlling andcommanding like this guess what
(19:53):
they're gonna they're gonna wantto have to go back to yeah, no,
that's really evocativeactually, because I know like
when I deliver workshops inperson and I have a circle of
people around me and I'mdelivering for like 90 minutes,
I leave that workshop feeling,feeling elevated, really feeling
(20:13):
the energy.
So I can almost empathize withthe experience of wow, yeah, not
having the people that you haveworked up your corporate ladder
to um to to work with.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, that's, I hadn't really felt that but
surely this conversation you see, this is a great comment that
you're making.
Here's the big differenceworking every day at the office
has nothing to do with yourexperience when you're going
into a finite workshop.
These are two different things.
(20:52):
Nothing can replace in-personinteraction, nothing can.
Nothing can replace in-personlearning, nothing.
We're not saying this shouldnot happen.
We're just saying that now weneed to be smart around when
this is happening.
We need to have a purpose,right.
(21:16):
If you have a workshop yeah,don't do it virtually, depending
on the type of workshop, to behonest.
Yeah, don't do it virtually,depending on the type of
workshop, to be honest, but morelikely than not, you'll get
more value out of bringing thesepeople together.
It's similar to the thing, it'ssimilar to, you know, before
(21:36):
COVID, when we were doing thesebig in-person events, learning
events, right, and you wouldbring 100 people and you would
say this is a great trainingwith 100 people.
It's not.
This is a great training with ahundred people.
It's not.
It's not a great training witha hundred people.
And also, they didn't need tobe in person to do this training
this 100 people, right.
It's a different thing to bring10 people, 15 people, up to 20,
(21:58):
let's say, together to reflect,to mentor each other, to learn
from each other, to try thingsout there tangibly and fail
together.
And a different thing to createa town hall and bring everyone
in just to say that this is anin-person event.
Right, there are so manyvariables that that we need to
(22:20):
consider and a lot of them haveimplications behavioral
implications, learningimplications, psychological
implications on the participantsthat we tend to not really
think about.
Because why?
Because this is how it's alwaysbeen done, that's how we did it
before COVID, so that's howwe're going to do it after, how
(22:41):
it's always been done.
That's how we did it beforeCOVID, so that's how we're going
to do it after.
There's a very, very importantmoderator there between the
before and after, and that's thethree years of COVID that
really taught us many, manythings about ourselves the way
we operate, the way we can run abusiness, the way we learn, the
way we raise our children right.
(23:02):
So many things.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
One of the really beautiful initiatives that you
shared with me when we initiallyspoke was this new opportunity
for employees to work fromanywhere for a month.
Is it a month a year, or is itjust a one-off?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
yeah, many companies are are offering similar um,
similar um, let's say benefits,because that's what it really is
, um, it's a really good benefit.
I won't lie to you.
Today I was talking to someonefrom a different company, um,
the other week I was talkingabout it with someone from the
UK actually and they weretelling me their company allows
(23:46):
that as well.
So I see more and morecompanies providing that kind of
benefit the work fromeverywhere benefit.
For, you know, as long as youhave the appropriate work
permits, right, and as long asyou're going in a country where
your organization, um, doesn'tconsider a risk, right, so, for
(24:10):
example, a war zone, okay,you're not, probably not,
allowed to work from a war zone,um, or you cannot really go,
for example, as a europeancitizen.
You cannot really go, forexample, as a European citizen.
You cannot just go to the USand work from there if you don't
have a work permit.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Right, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So there are some limitations and depending on the
legislation you know, taxmandates of each country, some
countries are 20 days a yearwork days a year, some are 10,
some are 15, some are five rightDepends on the country and
their own kind of legislationand tax system.
(24:49):
But it is something that ithelped me a lot personally when
I needed to take because Ididn't use it to necessarily
vacation and work from my homecountry, greece.
I went there during the winterbecause there was a family
emergency and I was going totake a leave of absence and
(25:14):
essentially not get paid duringmy absence, and my leader came
to me and said listen, did youknow that?
We have?
This policy was new.
You can actually work fromthere.
If you have the appropriate,you know work permits, which I
do.
You can just go and work fromthere.
(25:37):
We'll figure out how you'regoing to be working, what hours
you're going to be working.
It's going to be working.
What hours you're going to beworking.
It's going to be core.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Canada hours.
It's going to be how, however,you know that would be working
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So, but you know what ?
We made it work and it workedbeautifully and I got to spend
time with uh, with those familymembers that otherwise I
wouldn't have, um, and that wasall thanks to this policy and so
you hadn't heard about thepolicy before you suggested is
is that policy now somethingwhere that, that Sun Life is
(26:10):
promoting, or is it more a?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
as people hear about it, then they might start asking
to take it up there was.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
There was a promotion period that apparently I missed
out on, like I didn't see thatnot reading all your internal
comms?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
yeah, um, so um I used to be in internal comms, so
it was it was it was promotedinternally.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
But yeah, it was, it was somewhere.
So I think benefits like thatkind of spread like wildfire
after a few people that are theformal or informal leaders in
the organization have used themand are happy with them.
Similar to learning programsand you see a list of learning
programs.
Like which one should I go to?
(26:54):
Oh, you know, shelly told methis one is really good.
I really trust shelly, I'mgonna go to that one similar
with that.
So I talked to people about myexperience doing that and guess
what, like a bunch of people,because I talked about it, went
and did it amazing, and I betthey really thanked you for that
as well well, they thanked thecompany yes because I didn't
(27:17):
make the policy um.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So social well-being is an area that I'm particularly
interested in and that's reallywhat I'm delving into in my
thesis, and I do wonder, likeanecdotally personally, has the
shift like during and postpandemic had had much bearing on
your social well-being?
(27:41):
Like are your social needs?
Was the work environment kindof satisfying a lot of your
social needs or have you managedto find a balance, kind of
outside work and being in theoffice enough to satisfy that?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well, that's a great question.
I I can't really tell.
I'll tell you what.
Before before covid, I wasworking in consulting.
I was a traveling consultant.
So every week I would, frommonday through thursday or
sometimes friday, I would bewherever the client was.
I I would get on a plane, gothere, live at a hotel.
(28:23):
So I wasn't really at mycompany's office with my
colleagues.
I was wherever the client wasthree months here, six months
there, four months the otherplace, a year somewhere else,
year somewhere else.
So I didn't really crave.
(28:44):
You know the traditional let mego to my desk thing, because I
didn't really have it for a longtime and I thrived not having
it.
So I don't know if that answers, partially at least, the
question for me personally, Idon't think it changed.
(29:07):
I did miss seeing people duringCOVID.
Everybody did.
Even if you're the mostintroverted person, you miss
seeing people.
You need to talk to someoneelse.
You have your partner at homeand your kids and your dog and
that's all you see all daybecause you have to work from
the kitchen table, right?
So you want to see people.
Did that necessarily change theway I think, the way I feel
(29:31):
about socializing and the way Isocialize, not really.
I think it actually reinforcedmy, my, my preferences with
regards to that because, then Igot to bring like I love hosting
people right during COVID.
We couldn't do that.
Now I got back to doing thatand I'm I'm thinking you know
(29:53):
that's great, like I missed that.
I love doing that again.
So it was more, more like thatfor me.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So it was more like that for me.
Okay, so last real topic that Iwould love to run by you is
emerging technology, and youknow there's a lot of debates
over which way it's all going atthe moment.
I like to think of everythinghappening for the good of
society, so I really try andkeep my mind on the positive.
(30:24):
Do you think that we canembrace emerging technology to
enhance, enhance connection,enhance, um the way that we work
with our teams, whether it's inperson, remotely?
Do you think, do you think we,do you think technology can help
(30:45):
us?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
are we talking about ai or, in general, technology?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
and the metaverse as well.
The metaverse is something thatI've been really interested in,
like pre-ai.
It kind of took a back seat assoon as ai took off, um, but the
metaverse is certainly an areathat I see us spending more time
like.
I was reading an articleyesterday and it was saying how,
just walking around the, theold office, the office of the
(31:14):
old days, when you had your owndesks and you'd have like a
picture of your partner or yourdog and as people walk by, or
you might have a picture with asoccer jersey on it and people
walk by and know that, oh, yousupport that team and like
starting to be able to paint apicture of you based on your
desk.
And it just got me thinkingabout, well, when we're, when we
all have our offices in themetaverse, then we could totally
(31:37):
like make it ourselves and makeit so people can walk up and,
um, I'm uh, I'm very connectedwith a company called so work
and they, they're currentlydoing this.
Um, it currently um it looksvery gamey.
It doesn't look like thisbeautiful aesthetic office that
(31:58):
I have in my mind Imagine.
It does feel a lot morelifelike.
So I don't think we're thereyet in terms of technology, but
I think it's coming.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I have conflicting thoughts about, specifically,
the metaverse.
We know that Meta or Facebookand Mark Zuckerberg who, mark,
if you're listening to us, Idon't particularly like you
either, but we can meet eachother and maybe this will change
(32:35):
.
What I was going to say is weknow that they spend a lot of
money and effort and brains andblood, sweat and tears in
creating something that didn'tnecessarily have the roi that
we're expecting, so that's not.
(32:56):
That should not be the onlyindicator of where these things
are going, because sometimessociety is not ready or
technology is not there yet.
I do think that it could replace, potentially, part of how we do
our job, similar to how zoomreplaced us getting in person
but it will never replace and Iwill go on record saying that it
(33:21):
will never replace the reallife experience that you have
with people, and even if we feelthat momentarily it replaces
that, in the long term we'll seethings that start popping up
because you're lacking, startpopping up because you're
(33:42):
lacking.
You're lacking this tactileexperience of touching the nice
couch in your office or hugginga colleague, or smelling
someone's perfume, or going tothe cafeteria and eating
together.
You're missing out on thesethings and these are core
(34:02):
behavioral.
You know know, these are likeschemata that we have in our in
our brains, around how, how theworld works.
Our brains are not evolved tobe in front of a screen the
whole day, and that's why wetalked about covid fatigue and
Zoom fatigue.
Right, because our brains arenot there yet.
(34:23):
Our brains are more this inperson, not what we're doing now
on Zoom.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Totally yes.
Yes, and kind of that's delvinginto kind of digital wellbeing.
And I wonder if you found anypractices yourself so that
you're not when you're workingfrom home, so you're not staring
at a screen from the moment youstart work to the moment you
kind of put your laptop down.
Do you have any practices whereyou're like, ok, I can read
this offline, I can plan thisoffline.
(34:55):
Do you put any kind of digitalboundaries on yourself for your
the health of your eyes, ifnothing else?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
boundaries on yourself for your the health of
your eyes, if nothing else, wellthat's.
That's a tough one, because, nomatter whether you're, you know
you can be at the office, youcan be at home, you can be in
your car or on the beach, aslong as you're working.
You have to work with a screenmost of the time.
Right 90 of the time there'sgoing to be these meetings that
you don't need a laptop, buteven in these meetings you'll
have your laptop in front of youtaking notes or finding
(35:27):
something, so you're going to belooking at the screen.
So that's why it's a tricky one.
What I do is like an exercisethat someone taught me from my
previous job when COVID startedand we started to work from home
my previous job when COVIDstarted and we started to work
(35:51):
from home, and they taught me tofocus somewhere outside of my
immediate environment.
So look at the window.
It doesn't need to be beautiful.
It can be literally an uglybuilding across the street.
Just focus on one tiny detailof this building, for example,
and spend about a minute or twojust looking at that and
thinking about that particular,one particular window.
(36:13):
That's very dirty and I can seeit from here, and there's a
curtain that's half hangingthere.
How can it be inside the house,the apartment, who lives there?
What does it smell?
So you think about it, you getyourself out of the, the
environment for a minute or twoand then you come back.
So you've done two thingsyou've given your, your brain, a
(36:36):
break by thinking somethingcompletely different.
Creative.
You, you wonder right.
And your eyes, because from thenear focus on the screen, the
crystals on the screen, you'refocusing on a real life thing
that exists right there.
(36:56):
So it has helped me a lot.
I'm lucky enough to have a.
We are relatively low in thecondo that we live, we're like
on the fourth floor.
So the trees, the surroundingtrees, we can see them from our
windows and you know we havesquirrels and we have little
(37:17):
birds and all that.
So that's what I do and allthat.
So that's what I do.
I just take a minute or twoevery now and then to just focus
on something else, think aboutit, fantasize.
And then also, what people do,and I try to do as well, is
don't sit for too long If you'reon a call and you're working
(37:41):
from home and you don't need tobe on camera, I don't know, pick
up a duster and, while you'reon the call, dust and you'll see
that you'll be even morefocused when you do that on the
call, by the way rather thanactually just being on your
phone.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
But they can't see because they've got the screen
there and you're just likeexactly so sounds like a better
use of your fine.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Exactly, find opportunities to to move, and
for people with with ADHD, itactually helps because you
you're doing something you knowwith with your hands, which
means that your brain can focuson what's being discussed.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
So that's another thing that I've found useful
totally, and I was just thinkingof those instances where, you
know, on a on a meeting, maybethere's going to be you know
three or four presenters, butthen there's a whole field of
faces and it's like why?
Why do we need to have ourcameras on at these points?
(38:41):
Is it just to show presence orto show reaction, so the
speakers don't speak, feel likethey're speaking to no one?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
there was definitely that debate going around because
some people would just alwayshave cameras off and some people
would always have them on youremember how we said that coming
into the office should becomepart of the experience and we
need to be mindful around whenwe're bringing people to the
office.
Just because the office existsdoesn't mean that it needs to be
(39:12):
full of people all the time.
Similarly, when you're gettingon a Zoom call, just because you
have the opportunity to turn onthe camera doesn't mean that
you should have the camera onall the time when there's a
speaker, and when there's fourspeakers, hello sorry, so just
one sec.
You just need to grab somethingI I love these impromptu kind of
(39:38):
like I'm here and I just goingto tell you what I need to tell
you, and it makes me smile andthis is another benefit that we
get Right now.
We just had this wonderfulbreak when this little one came
in and said hey, I need to movethis.
What was it like?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
a chair or something, just a stool Right.
Can you help?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
me, mom Right, and look at you smiling.
Look at all the chemicals thatare coming through from your
brain to your body right now,just because we had this
experience.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So I don't even remember what we were talking
about.
I don't know, but it's justbringing me back to that vision
of the desk with the photo andit's like, well, you've just had
a live photo of, you've got aninsight into my life.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Yeah, so yeah, now I remember it because you said so.
We were talking about camerason versus cameras off.
So if you have a meeting withup to, let's say, if it's an
intimate meeting and you knowwhen a meeting is intimate,
don't try to quantify it.
Don't say you know, oh, if it'slike five to 10 people, then
it's intimate.
(40:40):
If it's like 11, it's notintimate.
That If it's like five to 10people, then it's intimate.
If it's like 11, it's notintimate.
That's not how it works.
You know when a meeting isintimate.
When you know when a meetingneeds to be intimate, that's
when you need the cameras to beon.
If you have a meeting with 30people, 40 people, a hundred
people, right During COVID,let's say, and you're just
asking a hundred people to turntheir cameras on, first of all,
this is going to destroy yourbandwidth.
(41:00):
Number one, number two you'renot going to be able to focus on
anyone because there's so many.
Why don't you just spotlightthe two main speakers and
whoever comes on mic, you know,turns on their mic to say
something or ask a question.
You spotlight them for likethese two, three seconds and
then you take them off again andpeople don't even need to have
(41:21):
their cameras on, because what'sthe point?
Right, it's not an intimatesetting, doesn't need to be an
intimate setting.
If you're doing virtualcoaching, group coaching, that's
a very intimate setting.
You need to have the cameras on, but that's exactly what we say
that group coaching, forexample, cannot happen with more
than 12 people.
(41:41):
It's eight to 12 people.
We don't do more than that,because then you know, either in
person or virtually, it becomesa town hall.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So, as we begin to wrap up this beautiful
conversation, I wonder in anideal world?
So right now you have heaps offlexibility, which sounds
perfect In an ideal world.
Given that flexibility, howoften do you tend to want to be
(42:16):
in the office?
And, as a build to that, howoften would you love to have all
of your team and potentiallykind of the whole team in one
place, and that doesn'tnecessarily have to be the
office environment?
But how many touch points doyou think like per month or
potentially per year, to reallyfeel like you are one team
(42:40):
together?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
like you are one, one team together.
I will respond in a typicalconsultant way, saying which is
it depends um a good rule ofthumb in would definitely say
get together once a month.
Personally, I come into theoffice because I want to, not
(43:15):
because I have to, and it'squite the drive for me to come
to the office, but still, yousee, I'm coming because there's
a reason.
Once a week, for sure,sometimes two.
Last week I came in four daysbecause every day there was
something that I needed to.
I was meeting someone, or wewere celebrating something, or
(43:39):
there was a workshop thing orthere was a workshop.
So I think, again, as I said it,it really depends on the phase
that you're in with your team,with your function, the time of
the year here in canada, youcan't really expect people to
travel when it's snowing likecrazy, no matter how many days
(43:59):
you have mandated.
Even before covid, when itsnowed, people would stare right
and they wouldn't work at all.
But now they have their laptops, so at least they can, they can
keep working, you see, sothere's something that
everybody's gaining from this,right let's, let's be honest
about that and and find a middleground that that works for
(44:19):
everybody and how did you feelafter those four days, because I
imagine that that's quiteunusual for you to actually be
in the office four days did you?
how was your?
Speaker 2 (44:29):
how was your energy?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
because I wasn't in the office for four days, even
before COVID, I was not, Iwasn't at my office, I was
wherever the client was, andthen on the plane and then a
hotel, right.
Um, it was exhausting and itmade me appreciate again.
You know, I thought how lucky Iam to be working, because I
(45:02):
paid about $80 in gas just todrive back and from, from and to
, plus $25 a day for parking,plus whatever you would eat,
(45:22):
plus whatever you would eat.
So we're talking about asubstantial amount of money.
And then every time I wouldtake about an hour each way.
So put that together andcumulatively it really dawns on
(45:42):
you and you're thinking, wow, Ican't believe that people used
to do that Right, and I washappy to do it because it was,
you know, the circumstancerequired.
I was actually talking to afriend here about this and I was
(46:02):
saying you know, whenever Icome to the office, I make sure
to know at least one or twopeople that are in the office
too, so that we can grab lunchor we can grab dinner afterwards
, because these are the thingsthat get you going right,
motivate you.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
A hundred percent.
And interestingly I'll justshare a friend of mine.
Their company has mandated twodays in the office.
She's got two young children,so on one hand she's kind of
frustrated but on the other hand, um, she doesn't live in in
(46:39):
central London anymore so it'sforcing her to to go back into
London and then she does thenarrange things with friends for
afterwards to like help motivateher.
So she's almost she knows thatshe wouldn't be going into the
office if it wasn't mandated.
But actually she's a littlethankful because it's giving her
that balance of life thatotherwise she would just be, you
(47:02):
know, doing, doing nurseryschool pickup and all that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
You know I'll say everything fades away.
Nothing stays new forever.
Working from home fades away.
Working from the office fadesaway.
Coming to the office and thenhaving drinks with friends that
fades away too.
So it's part of the naturalevolution of human behavior.
(47:30):
We always want to change thingsaround or we're very
comfortable keeping thingsexactly the same they are if
they work for us well.
I just think we need to beflexible and open to figuring
out what's needed at each pointin time.
Having our ears open to listenright to the environment, kind
(47:56):
of these cues that sometimes ittakes a double take for you to
figure out what's happeningthere, because these are
eventually the moments thatmatter in the employee
experience.
That's how I see it.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
So, tos, it's been a pleasure to get to know you, to
get under the skin of how you'reworking, how you're thriving in
this new way, the new normal,as we were all calling it a
while back.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
I really hope we'll stay intouch.
I'm excited to see and learnwhat happens next in all of
these kind of different ways ofworking.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Thank you very much for having me, shelley.
It was an absolute pleasure and, yes, we will stay in touch and
keep talking.
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