August 6, 2024 • 48 mins
Join us for a compelling episode of Rediscovering Connection with Seth Kaplan, a leading expert on fragile states and Professor of International Studies at Johns Hopkins University.
We delve into the art of building resilient neighborhoods through active community involvement and local volunteerism. Seth shares profound insights on the role of embodied relationships and social capital, drawing from his extensive research and personal experiences.
This episode is perfect for anyone considering where they want to put down roots or wondering how to integrate into their community, with practical insights on building your social wealth locally. During our interview, Seth discusses the importance of thinking local vs. national, being intentional about your place, and understanding thick vs. thin societies.
About Seth Kaplan
Seth Kaplan is the author of "Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society One Zip Code at a Time", and a leading expert on fragile states, who consults for international organizations as well as country governments and NGO's.
Find Seth Kaplan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethkaplan28/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I tend to find intentionally looking to meet
people is not as good as ifyou're doing something with
people.
If you have a goal, we're goingto work together to help,
so-and-so.
And then if you spend like Iresearched and wrote about an
organization in Detroit and oneof their main activities is six
days of volunteer activities toimprove neighborhoods If you
(00:23):
join that and you spend a day ortwo volunteering with other
people, maybe you will befinding some people there in an
environment that's not there tomeet people.
But because you're working withpeople closely for the day,
you're likely to be relaxed andget to know people.
So I would always be lookingfor things like that.
Ideally, you find a few peopleand then you have partners to
(00:47):
work with and ultimately, Ibelieve neighborhoods are key
because that is where we startwith embodied relationships and
the more people you know locally, the more likely you're going
to have social wealth.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
I am your host, shelley Doyle,and today's guest is Seth Kaplan
, who's a leading expert onfragile states.
Who's worked around the worldfor NGOs and international
organizations, but his latestbook is really a homecoming,
(01:21):
talking about repairing Americansociety one zip code at a time.
So this is FragileNeighborhoods Seth's latest book
, and it was a real gift for meto connect with Seth.
We spoke a lot aboutneighborhoods and how we can
build our social capital, trustin our locality, and how so few
(01:41):
people are actually doing thisinvesting in where they live,
and Seth is really a prime casestudy for his work incredibly
intentional about where he chosehis family to live for the last
12 years, which is reallyinspiring for me as someone
that's moved quite a lot and iskind of looking for somewhere to
put down my roots.
(02:02):
The reason that Seth came ontomy radar was something they had
said on LinkedIn about socialwealth, and this term just so
spoke to me as someone who'sbeen working in the realm of
social wellbeing, social health,social capital.
The term social wealth I foundvery evocative and, in contrast
(02:23):
to social capital, it feels likesocial wealth is something that
feels quite tangible, like wecan actually put a figure on
that and see how that can beused, transferred like any other
form of wealth.
So this is really what I'mdigging into even deeper in my
master's thesis right now andI'm very thrilled that not only
(02:45):
Seth Kaplan but another of myguests, robin Dunbar two of my
guests in the last 12 months areactually featured in the
literature review of my master's.
So a huge, huge honor andprivilege to have the
opportunity to have theseindividuals come on to speak to
me and share some of theirdecades of knowledge and wisdom.
(03:07):
So I really hope you're goingto enjoy this episode.
I know that I really did enjoyspeaking to Seth.
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
First of all, thrilled to be with you, shelley
.
Thank you so much for yourbubbling enthusiasm.
It certainly affects me, so Iappreciate that so much.
And if you want a couple ofbullets on who I am, I teach at
Johns Hopkins University.
I work in a lot of fragilecountries, conflict-prone
countries, and I have a booklast year on the fragility of
(03:37):
American society which I thinkworks.
The message works well for anycountry like the UK, australia,
canada and so on and so forthSimilar challenges that we all
face in this atomized world thatwe live in.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And many of these countries are going through big
elections, big changes.
The UK has just gone over tolabor, canada and the US have
elections looming.
So how is all of this going tobe affecting the fragility of
the states that we are living in?
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think I try not to think too much about politics.
I have I don't put politicalsigns on my front yard.
I don't have political signs onmy car.
If people talk politics I willtake an interest, but I mostly
think in these developed, stablecountries, compared to where I
(04:35):
usually work, like in Nigeria orLibya or someplace like that,
it's not the politics.
The politics can affect how wefeel, but I don't think it
should.
I think we should focus firstand foremost on things that we
can change and we can have thebiggest impact on what is around
us.
So if you ask me how they willaffect us, it will probably make
(04:57):
some people happy when theirchoice wins and they'll make
other people unhappy.
But I think we should not vesttoo much in politics that are
far from us and we should lookclose to home and think what can
we do close to home?
That is where we can have a bigimpact.
It's hard to have a big impactwhen you're talking tens of
millions of people.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I went to a TEDx TEDx Victoria recently and one of
the speakers was really justtalking about micro villages and
how this is the missing pieceand how, for some reason, like
new developments were just builtand that all it is is homes and
there was no third spacesplanned into them, which has
(05:41):
really kept everybody quiteisolated and siloed and actually
really reimagining the village.
I'd love to explore this topicwith you.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'd be delighted to.
I think the way I would thinkabout it is that we all used to
live in something like villages.
We all used to live inplace-based communities with
lots of places to meet, lots ofinstitutions.
We shopped locally, we prayedlocally, we went to school
locally.
Whatever government or politicswas mostly involved was the
(06:14):
local.
And now these things have beenremoved further from us and
we've built a landscape in whichwe are just in our home.
And now, with technology, we'renot only in our home, we're in
our room alone.
And I would say the word that Iwould like to use is re-village
.
We want to re-village and Ididn't invent that, someone
(06:38):
named Mack McCarter who worksgreat on community building in
Shreveport Louisiana, that's hisexpression.
We want to re-villagize ourlandscapes so that we know our
neighbors, so that we have localinstitutions, that we have
local places to meet, and themore we are interacting with
(06:58):
each other in place or aroundour places and the more those
opportunities present themselvesor we create those
opportunities, the richer oursocial lives will be.
I think the more trust we willhave with each other and
actually the better we will beable to solve our problems,
because so many of our problemsare not problems of government
(07:21):
or problems of policy.
They're actually problems ofbreakdown of our relationships.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yes, and something that's coming up for me is the
word fear.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Fear.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
yes, Thinking that the streets aren't safe anymore,
and the reality is where peopleare living in so much fear that
we're not giving ourselves andour children the freedom that we
all need to thrive.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So I would say we are anxious in a way that it's
we're anxious because we don'tknow our neighbors.
We're anxious because we are.
We don't have the socialsupport network we used to have.
So in my neighborhood, when Iwalk down the street, I feel a
sense of joy.
I do not feel a sense ofanxiety.
I mean, of course, if you lookat any data on crime, crime is
way down over many, many decades.
(08:16):
But I feel a sense of joybecause I know who's behind the
houses.
I know if I'm walking aroundand I see someone, they're not
likely my friend but they'relikely a relationship because
I've seen their face regularly.
I know, if I'm walking aroundand I see someone, they're not
likely my friend but they'relikely a relationship because
I've seen their face regularly.
I know them.
I probably know how many kidsthey have or I know what's going
on a little bit with theirfamily or something like that.
(08:37):
The point is, when you havelots of relationships and also
you have lots of experiences.
Let me share an experience withyou.
I can recall many years ago myoldest daughter took her younger
brother, who was about a yearand a half, out of the car and
(08:57):
she dropped him within a fewsteps, on the cement in front of
her house.
So imagine I'm there with mywife looking at my year and a
half old son and he had a bloodychin, and you're like a frantic
parent.
I'm like what is happening?
My wife runs, picks up the kidand runs down the street.
It didn't tell me where she wasgoing.
I mean, I'm like what is goingon?
But she's great in an emergency.
What did she do?
(09:18):
She comes back a half an hourlater and he's bandaged.
She went to the closest nurse.
Because it's not a friend ofours, it's simply a relationship
.
If you live in a place with theterm that I use would be social
wealth that you know lots ofpeople, you have relationships
with each other, you know eachother, you don't feel anxious,
(09:38):
you're able to let your kidswander, You're able to go and
find help when you need help,and I could give you a hundred
stories of I needed help,somebody needed help, somebody
was there for somebody else, andhow many of us can say that?
And that's not just friends.
We all try to make friends, butI think the more important
factor is relationships.
(10:00):
Yes, good that we have someclose friends and I have a
couple of people I would callfriends in my neighborhood, but
I know hundreds of people and wehave norms of supporting each
other and we talk to each otherwhen they get to a certain age.
And that's a great contrastbecause most people they have no
one to go to who's near them,they're afraid to let their kids
(10:32):
out, they're safeguardingthemselves.
Day to day, your whole mindsetchanges.
Your feeling of joy andhappiness is not there because
you feel alone and at risk.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So there's a couple of points I'd love to touch on
there.
I guess one of them is how haveyou built such strong ties in
your neighborhood?
And the other one is about thefreedom that we are allowing our
children in the real worldversus the virtual world.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, so why don't I do that in reverse order?
So I think I just publishedsomething on this and I think we
look at the.
Jonathan Haidt in his booktalks about how we've moved from
the play-based childhood to thephone-based childhood and about
all the downsides.
So the problem is, most of hiswork is he's literally trying to
(11:29):
get people to not allow kids toespecially not use social media
.
It's not the phones alone.
I mean, you can have a phonethat's like a dumb phone and you
could talk to your family ortalk to your neighbors, but it's
the smartphones and socialmedia that the data says is the
worst for the kids, because thatputs them into a completely
(11:50):
different mindset.
I mean, they're not present.
They have all these socialpressures and bullying and
feeling bad about themselvesbecause of the social media, not
because they're on the internetlooking for information, for
some research or they're doingat school or something.
So there's a positive side butthere's a negative side.
(12:11):
But all of his work is focusedon let's stop access to the
phone, and my argument is youcan't just focus on the bad.
You got to focus on the good,and so he does say we have to go
out and play on the good.
And so he does say we have togo out and play.
But if you're a family and youdon't know your neighbors and
you don't have relationships,it's not so simple to say go out
(12:31):
and play, who are they playingwith?
And you don't feel so trustingof your neighbors and you don't
have any places for themobviously to go to.
So I think the bigger argumentis the ability to switch from
phone to play means that we haveto have a community around us,
and it's the decay of ourcommunities that put the kids on
(12:52):
the screens in the first placeand they made them vulnerable to
the rise of social media andsmartphones.
And so we need to think of thatas like a three-part story,
three-chapter story, and so weneed to go upstream and work on
the community.
And so why my neighborhood isspecial?
Because there's various thingsthat make my neighborhood
(13:13):
special.
First, we have an abundance ofplace, unique institutions, so
we have local stores, we havelocal civic institutions, we
have local religiousinstitutions, we have local
businesses, and also we arephysically surrounded on three
sides by green, so we are a verynatural neighborhood.
(13:33):
We have a center with stores,and again, we have all these
institutions.
We have parks.
So a neighborhood is typicallystronger if it's physically
designed as a neighborhood andit has lots of place, specific
institutions in the neighborhood.
So it's not like I mean, yes, Iuse, I buy virtually, but I go
(13:55):
to restaurants locally, I go tothe supermarket locally and I
know my neighbors.
We have community schools.
One of the things that's reallytalked about is the importance
of neighborhood schools.
If your kids go to a school andtheir neighbors go to a school,
it's like the parents and thekids know their peers and they
visit their homes.
If everyone is busing to aschool, that's not going to
(14:18):
happen or you're going to aschool far away from home.
So I would say we have allthese institutions and we have a
natural environment andtherefore we have much more of a
play based childhood than mostother kids are having at this
point in time.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And having been doing this work, were you then quite
intentional about theneighborhood that you chose to?
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So if you think about my life, so my life it's, I
think, the big journey.
If I may give you the bigjourney, I had a lot of trouble
as a as a kid, with my peers.
I mean, I did fine till sixthgrade and then you got into
middle school and you go to alarger school and we had a lot
(15:01):
of bullying.
And we had a lot of bullyingand I was always good with class
but I was slow on learning allthe norms and how to behave, and
so I literally had an awfulexperience in seventh grade, so
much that we switched to adifferent public school in
eighth grade, went to theneighboring town's public school
, and so I had years seventh,eighth, ninth, into 10th grade
(15:24):
in which I was bullied and I wasleft out and I felt clearly I
didn't feel good about myself.
But that experience forced meto watch people, watch how
people treat each other, watchhow people were socialized or
the norms or how people behaved,and something about that
(15:45):
experience stayed with me.
So when I left college, alittle bit like you, shelley, I
wandered, I basically backpacked.
I lived in Africa, I lived inAsia, I lived in the Middle East
, I just wandered to, likedozens of countries and at some
point I said we need to bepractical.
So I started working on thequestion that bothered me the
most why do some states work andsome don't?
(16:06):
I mean, that's a very bigquestion and there's lots of
things you can read on it, butvery few people focused on the
nature of relationships and Iwas asking myself why does
Nigeria not work for the mostpart, and Japan, where I also
live, work so well?
Well, one is cohesive, one hasvery strong social ties, very
(16:28):
strong sense of common identity,and so that's where I started
my work.
Actually, so literally, I havea book on fragile states, the
first book ever written onfragile states and I've spent
the last 15 years of my this ismy career helping countries
based upon that book andadditional books and work.
And the main entry point for meis always how do we build
(16:49):
stronger relationships, how dowe build stronger institutions?
Because that will helpcountries thrive.
And the journey continues interms of.
I did this book, my recent bookand my recent research because
people started asking me what iswrong with our country, what is
wrong with America, and whenthat happened, over and over
again, I said I have to delveinto it, but in terms of my
(17:11):
personal journey.
So I mean, I did not grow upreligious but at one point I was
attracted to religion becausereligion especially, I felt, if
you went to the right, I went tomy tradition.
But also I was very selectivein terms of the part of my
tradition.
I went to the part that wasmost community oriented, the
(17:31):
most communitarian, and then interms of so that was one step I
made and that was like a journeyover about 10 years to get a
little bit, little bit more andmore religious, and so that was
one part.
But then when I decided, when Iwas thinking about where to live
after I got married, Iliterally looked at half a dozen
neighborhoods.
I lived in New York.
I didn't find it too communityoriented People.
(17:53):
I love New York, a lot ofdynamism, but people are not so
close to each other.
So we literally my wife and I,looked in New Jersey, looked in
Pennsylvania, looked in Marylandand I was always looking in the
direction of Washington becauseI had work here, and ultimately
we chose a place.
A neighbor actually in Brooklynsays why don't you try this
(18:14):
community?
And this place where I live nowis amazing.
So I'm so thrilled, but itreally was.
It was very intentional and itwas a lot of choices along the
way that kept leading me intomore community oriented
lifestyle.
So it's almost like I've chosenmany things to have a better
lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
And I'm on that journey right now, seth.
So I'm slapping this up andI've been exploring, like two
years ago I took my family intoan eco village where we lived
for four months to experiencehow it felt to live in community
.
Now, this was quite an intenseversion of home living.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Is that near Victoria ?
Where is that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, it's just.
It was in Shawnegan Lake, soabout an hour north of Victoria,
and we had our own home, but ithad very limited kitchen
facilities, so we we ate incommunity like 13 meals a week,
wow so very, very intense.
Like a massive learningexperience it was how large was
the community?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
how many people?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
it fluctuated between about 12 people in the depths
of winter up to about 30.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So it was a really small.
It's not like I live in like athousand family community, so
that's like really small.
So you literally shared yourlives with, sounds to me, with
seven, 10, whatever familiesyeah, so that was.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It was a huge learning experience not not an
environment that I wish torepeat, but I do love the idea
of co-living in a way, um, butco-living in that you would
maybe have weekly meals incommunity, because I know that
the weekly the regularity ofdoing something weekly, which is
(20:01):
why what you did sound sounds abit too intense for me.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I mean I don't want to be eating every meal with
people.
It also sounds like a veryinefficient, if I may say that,
and you may not want to talk toeverybody if you live in a.
For me, the key thing withcommunity of course faith and
religion matters.
I mean it would be great if wecould have in my area there's
six houses of worship, sothere's a variety that people
(20:32):
can join.
But I would say it's the sizethat's very important.
I mean, for me this is a greatsize because that means we are
big enough to have the communityinstitutions and yet we're
small enough to have diversity.
I mean we're big enough butwe're also big enough to have
the diversity.
We're small enough that we canmore or less know all the
(20:55):
institutions.
We can always know of somebodythrough somebody.
We're not like a 50,000.
50,000 doesn't work, 20,000doesn't work.
I think 10,000 is stretching it, a thousand like houses,
families.
I mean that is a really goodsize for a community because
you've more or less goteverything you need but you
don't have a lot more than youneed and you have an intimacy
(21:18):
and a cohesion that's great whenyou get much smaller than that.
It's more of a stretch everyday in terms of what you're
doing and how about thecongregation at your church?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I wonder how many are in.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I mean, I'm Jewish, so it's synagogue, but we're
roughly about 300 families or300 people and that's.
I think that's a good size.
I mean, there's mega churcheswhich are over the top and I
wonder how you get community ina mega church.
I think you can probably get itin pieces, but I wonder if
you're just involved with lotsof networks and not not
(21:53):
community.
So in a sense, I mean for me, I, I, I think 300, 200, 300, 400,
that's a really good size interms of families or households,
but the key thing is regularand lots of other institutions
the school, the church or houseof worship or synagogue and then
(22:15):
we also have places to eat andyou have other activities going
on.
So you really are like a wholeecosystem.
It's an ecosystem that you canengage as much as you want.
If you want to stay in yourhome and just show up whatever
once a week, you can do that.
I mean, there are people whodon't even show up once a week
but they sort of know enoughpeople that they're in the
(22:37):
system.
But if it's just oneinstitution, I think it's much
harder to have a community andwhat you described in terms of
just that small number.
That sounds a littlesuffocating for me, to be very
honest it felt it a lot of thetime.
You need this attention betweenhaving too much and too little.
I would say most of us have fartoo little.
(22:59):
So what you described was sortof an opposite extreme.
But I think if you have alarger group and again many
institutions, and again the roleof place is so important, I
can't get this online, I can'tget this by just go.
I mean, again, I'm Jewish but Itell my Christian friends, if
(23:20):
you just go once a week andyou're leaving and then your
kids go some other place, that'snot related.
Where's the community?
It's just a bunch of networks.
So again, the role of place isso important.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And just you mentioned about not getting this
online, but obviously we haveaccess to have communities
online now, and I do.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Are they communities, if I may say that we use the
term, but is that really acommunity?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Well, I do wonder, and actually this is something
that I am working on, so I'vecreated a concept called the
communiverse, and the idea forthe communiverse is you do the
work to identify who the keyplayers are in your life,
(24:13):
whether they live around thecorner from you or they live the
other side of the world fromyou and like finding what
regularity you want to have inyour relationships.
And maybe it doesn't need to bethat structured, but just
understanding you know you canfeel into.
If you haven't spoken to one ofyour key players for a month,
then you probably want to bepicking up the phone to
reconnect with them, but thenkind of widening that out and
(24:34):
then thinking about what, whatgroups you are you are involved
with, because we've all gotmaximum capacity in our lives
and I think it's so easy to umget overwhelmed by the number of
groups you join and communitiesyou join, particularly online.
So it's finding that balance togain that I love the term that
you use um social wealth.
(24:56):
So finding a balance to toreally maximize your social
wealth by knowing what yourlimitations are.
So we're not using all of ourdigital time on social media,
for instance, in what a lot ofpeople are doing.
I think the sats are sayingpeople are spending between two
and a half and three and a halfhours a day on social media and
(25:17):
for some of us I know, likeLinkedIn is a fantastic
professional tool that I amdefinitely have a slight
addiction to which I do try andmanage.
But just thinking about, yeah,communities both on and offline
can be really nourishing andspending time in those
(25:39):
communities versus going onsocial media and being exposed
to thousands of people ondifferent channels every day.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So I believe I think what you're suggesting is most
likely going to work if it'shybrid.
I mean, the thing is you'rebasing it upon embodied
relationships and using thevirtual to support the strength
of those that I think can work.
I would say that if you onlyhave virtual ties with people
(26:11):
and there's no embodiedrelationship underlying it, I'm
more skeptical that that canactually be a community, because
people can come and go andthere's, there's, there's not,
there's not the same type ofglue and there's not the same
type of um I would say um glueas well as penalties If you, if
(26:32):
you are not a good character inthe, in the network and to the
extent that you have, if youhave whatever and again it's a
question of how large could thatbe?
So if you're talking about,let's say, 15 people and you're
doing something like that andthat you're complementing some
embodied with some virtual, Imean that could be really very
(26:56):
helpful for people.
I just don't believe you canhave a completely virtual
community.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that's really animportant nugget and something
that I'm sure a lot of peoplehaven't thought of, but I do.
Also, on the flip side, I dothink having a digital
relationship with individualsthat we know personally in
person can really deepen ourrelationships yes, so as an
(27:24):
example um, let's see if there'sdistance yes, yes.
So when I first moved over herefrom the UK in 2021, feeling
incredibly disconnected, Ireally heard my soul calling,
which was to help people feelconnected which was ironic
because I didn't.
I had to start with myself first.
So I set about exploring themetaverse and inviting friends
(27:49):
and family groups into spacesthat I created, and I really did
find particularly one group ofschool friends.
We've all been friends for manydecades.
We had three digital catch upsbefore.
I then went back to the UK inthe summer and then we had a
beautiful picnic family day inthe park and in that day we all
(28:12):
had our kids there and we didn'tneed to talk about, like, a lot
of the topics, a lot of what'sbeen happening on our lives,
because we'd had those digitalcatch-ups in between.
So we were able to really justbe in presence with each other.
So I really do feel like thathybrid those digital
interactions in between physicalcatch-ups really did enhance
(28:34):
the feeling of connectedness.
When we did catch-ups I thinkit can.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I think it can because you already know the
people and you have trust, youhave some sense of
interdependency, sense of care.
And then I think I mean I seeit even in my neighborhood.
In my neighborhood, technologyis mostly bonding because we all
know each other.
We have a community WhatsAppgroups.
(29:00):
I mean we have many of them andI mean I can just give an
example of we have.
I mean I'm on one of the groupsand one of the groups I was in
Denver recently giving some talkor something and I had finished
and I was waiting, spending therest of the day there before I
was going to fly back to where Ilive in Washington, and one of
the groups I noticed that itpopped up that somebody was
(29:21):
reporting a missing child andall of a sudden all these
volunteers appeared on the group.
And so I think you're talkingabout people you know well
personally, but in this case,because we're I mean so I
totally think that's important.
In this case, I don't thinkeverybody actually knew each
other, but they were all tiedtogether because they were in a.
Maybe this group had a couplehundred people maximum, but they
(29:44):
all were neighbors, they allknew each other, they all had
some connection and boom, youhad maybe 20 or so volunteers.
We're going to meet at 4 pm.
In fact they weren't going tomeet.
We're going to go and search at4 pm, like an hour later, and
they all went off in differentdirections.
I'm going to this woods, I'mgoing up this street, I'm going
behind the supermarket, I'mgoing here and within an hour or
(30:08):
whatever of searching, they hadfound the kid and then the
texts were.
I went this far.
Can somebody pick me up BecauseI'm down by this, I'm over
there and the whole thing startto finish is maybe four hours
and boom, that was because theyknew each other.
But tech, so tech, I think canbe really helpful in helping
(30:30):
people when they are in need,keeping people well connected,
but I think there really has tobe an embodied relationship
before and so if you havewhatever number of people in
your lives and you're connectedto them regularly, or if you
could be family, friends,classmates, I certainly think
you could do a lot with that andyou could talk about positive
(30:52):
tech or tech cultivating depthor bonding in my relationships.
I think that is great.
I just think if you start fromzero, it's it doesn't have the
same outcome is what I have.
Especially when you get tolarge numbers and people can
come and go, that's really hard.
(31:12):
So for people who are feelingfor giving me, for having strong
opinions on the topic.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
No, I love it.
So for people who are feelinglike a sense of disconnect maybe
they're now working, but theydon't live in anything that they
would call a community whatcould they do?
What could they practically toreally start themselves to
(31:41):
feeling connected in theircommunity and in their digital
lives as well?
Where would you suggest theystart?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Again, people have great they're great differences
in situations.
So I hate to give one or onething that will fit everybody,
but I would always start again.
I'm really.
I really think some sort ofembodied relationship is a good
place to start.
And so I would be looking isthere a neighbor?
Is there a local institution?
(32:11):
I mean you could startvolunteering.
You can look for places wherepeople gather.
I mean, the problem is some ofour neighborhoods or places
where people live today, they'renot neighborhoods, they're just
a bunch of houses and streets.
And if you're on a cul-de-sacif you know what a cul-de-sac is
like a dead end, we sometimesuse that term as well.
(32:34):
I mean, it's easy becausepeople sort of relate that we
have some physical connection toeach other, so it's okay.
But if you just live on astreet and the cars are coming
back and forth and that's allthat is around you, what is it
that?
But I would say, look for waysto meet neighbors.
Can you have a block party, canyou invite some people over for
(32:56):
a meal?
But of course it's alwayseasier if you have one or two
other people with you.
Imagine there was three of youand you were doing something
together.
You would have more courage,you would have more connections
to start with.
You know a few, they know a few, the third person, all three.
So I'd be looking for those fewneighbors.
(33:17):
I'd be looking for whatactivity can you start?
Can you repeat that activity?
I would be looking.
If some of that seems hard, isthere something near where you
live that you can volunteer forand then show up?
I was recently in Los Angeleswith a good friend of mine and
she had relocated there near herparents and she was surprised
(33:40):
how atomized Los Angeles was.
She was from the East Coast andpeople there are, just they
don't have many, they're notstrong on relationships.
So she basically was lookingfor activities that she could go
to with a lot of othernewcomers.
I mean, la is huge so it's nota great example.
But imagine you live in aneighborhood.
(34:01):
Where is it that you go?
What activity could you join?
What volunteer activity couldyou do?
What organization could youjoin that enables you to meet
people in a relaxed environment?
I tend to find intentionallylooking to meet people is not as
(34:21):
good as if you're doingsomething with people.
If you have a goal, we're goingto work together to help,
so-and-so, and then if you spendlike I wrote about.
I researched and wrote about anorganization in Detroit and one
of their main activities is sixdays of volunteer activities to
improve neighborhoods, removeblight, beautify, repair some
(34:45):
houses.
So if you are in Detroit that'snot quite your immediate
neighborhood.
But if you join that and youspend a day or two volunteering
with other people, maybe youwill be finding some people
there in an environment that'snot there to meet people.
But because you're working withpeople closely for the day,
you're likely to be relaxed andget to know people.
(35:07):
So I would always be lookingfor things like that.
Ideally, you find a few peopleand then you have partners to
work with and ultimately Ibelieve neighborhoods are key
because that is where we startwith embodied relationships and
the more people you know locally, the more likely you're going
to have social wealth.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I've just read a paper by RobinDunbar I don't know if he's on
your radar, he's a Britishanthropologist, so it was a
recent paper and it was calledthe neurobiology of, of social
distance and they came tothere's a 30 minute cut off, so
if you live within a 30 minuteradius of somebody, your chances
(35:52):
measured by?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
measured by walking or driving, or what?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Exactly Any form of form whatever you you use.
So if you're not able to drive,then it'd need to be walking
distance, so whatever you'reable.
And so I was like, wow, that isreally a critical knowing for
me, somebody that hasn't yet putdown roots.
Um, to be more intentional andI love how intentional you were
(36:17):
by looking for that neighborhood.
So for me, I have a lot ofbeautiful connections back home
in the UK and if that is gonnabe where we end up landing, then
knowing that 30 minute rule tothen be intentional about okay,
well, who do I really reallywant in my life?
And then let's look at a 30minute radius of these
(36:40):
particular individuals, if that,if that works, I think that's
really powerful to consider as astarting point for somebody
that is going to be movinglocation.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yes, 30 minutes is good.
I mean, in terms of aneighborhood, roughly 30 minutes
walking, that's a pretty good,pretty good number for a
neighborhood.
My, my oldest child, who justturned 12, she will go in.
About three quarters of herclassmates live within 30
minutes walking.
So she's able to go out um inthe daytime and she can go to
(37:15):
any of those houses and she'swalking.
That's what she's doing and I'mthrilled that she just does
that.
I mean, she probably does thatabout once a week, maybe more
now because we're in the summer.
But that 30 minutes is a reallygood number and if it's so, I
would say in general, I likethat If it's within even closer.
(37:35):
I mean I use walking and thenyou can get a couple of other
people, then you begin to have.
It begins to have a cascadingimpact as opposed to 30 minutes
driving.
There could be five millionpeople If you're 30 minutes
walking.
I mean, I live in a suburb.
You're probably talking aboutthousands of people, so if you
could actually get a few ofthose and then they probably
(37:59):
know a few others and then a fewothers and it begins to have a
cascading impact on the peoplethat you know beautiful.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
You've traveled a great deal around the world.
What have you learned thatyou've really brought back to
incorporate into your life andyour way of living that you
would love to share, to inspireother people about, potentially,
the way that they choose tolive their lives?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I think clearly my whole focus on relationships
that's a product of my travel.
I mean, I first went off justout of curiosity, but the fact
that I spent so many years and Icontinue to spend time working
on basically fragile states,fragile countries,
(38:50):
conflict-prone countries,fragile countries,
conflict-prone countries one ofthe reasons is because I find
the richness of therelationships, the way people
treat each other in these places, I find them welcoming, I find
them warm, I find them enticing,I find myself comfortable in
that type of relationalenvironment and I find that the
(39:16):
wealthier places I mean we'retalking now about
English-speaking countriesmostly there's so many great
things that we might havebecause we're materially
well-off, we have infrastructure, we have efficiency, but we
don't emphasize relationships.
We tend to emphasize ourindividual self and there's a
(39:38):
balance there's always going tobe a balance between your
individual and the relationships.
But if you ask me what clearlyhas had a strong impact on me,
it's just this feeling of warmthand relationships that I've got
from people and relationshipsthat I've got from people.
I think it's affected all partsof my life choice.
Even the person I've marriedcomes from one of these fragile
(40:00):
places.
She originally came.
She comes from the poorestcountry in Europe, a place in
Eastern Europe, and so she comesfrom a very relational culture.
It's just my culture.
I feel most comfortable withvery relationship.
I would use the term thicksocieties In fact I use that in
one of my books thick versusthin.
(40:20):
We in the English speakingworld we live in a very thin
society mostly not always andnot everywhere, Depends where
you are but I've always feltmyself much more comfortable in
thick societies with thick bondsand thick institutions and I
would say, thick norms.
We should do this now, weshould do that then, and that's
(40:41):
not for everybody, but I find itvery comforting.
So, that's probably the thingthat I bring back the most is
this appreciation, this emphasis.
I'm sure it's affected mychoices about becoming more
religious, because a lot ofthese places people are very
religious and it's affected, Imean, everything from my desire
(41:01):
to live in a thicker communityto my desire in terms of how I
spend my time.
I don't send money mostly tofaraway charities.
I look for charities close tohome.
I don't volunteer for farawaycharities.
I'm on the board of a localnonprofit and I help with
another nonprofit and so on andso forth.
These are all the thingsbecause I believe the more I
(41:22):
focus on the local, the more,the more the local will give to
me or I'll give to the local.
I just find this to be a veryand so I think, if you ask me
what I bring back, it's not aparticular thing.
It's this mindset and thisculture.
Um, I must have had some of itbefore, but it's certainly all
come out much richer because ofall my experiences in many
(41:44):
countries.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I don't know why, but the comedian Dave Chappelle is
coming to my mind.
Um quite a lot of his um, hisuh like shows and his
documentaries and and he he'salways returned to his hometown
and he's very grounded you knowthat.
I didn't know that and he'sjust so happy and he's, and
everyone knows him, everybodyknows him, and he's just Dave
(42:10):
it's a different experience.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I I mean honestly it's different experience.
I think the virtual does giveus the opportunity.
I mean I have.
I know people.
They said I don't need to livein Washington DC, I can move
back.
I have a former classmate aclassmate not a classmate, a
student.
She says I'm moving back toCleveland, I can continue my
career.
I can do it all virtually.
(42:32):
I'll just fly when I have toand I'll live near my parents
because we have a bettercommunity in Cleveland and I
have more family and classmatesand all that there.
And so I believe more of us wantto do that than we are.
Technology it could allow us tomake those choices.
(42:53):
We ourselves have to make thosechoices, but the technology
means we miss less, we haveaccess to more and we can stay
vested in smaller places, placeswhere people actually know each
other, care for each other in away that they don't, and
sometimes in big cities,especially in my country, on the
coast.
On the coast they're more likepeople came there from elsewhere
(43:15):
and they're strangers, but ifyou go to the heartland you tend
to know people much more yeah,there's definitely been a theme
that's been running through myrecent conversations about the
return and the return yes,hero's journey.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And and so many of us go on this big worldwide
exploration only to really feelthe yearning to return, but
returning with fresh eyes.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yes.
So there's organizations thathelp people do that.
For example, in America we haveLead for America that helps
people from top universities goback and don't basically change
their career path.
So they're going home and theycan be leaders at 25 as opposed
to being in a big city and somebig organizations.
They're not gonna be leadersuntil they're 45.
(44:04):
But I also think this idea ofthe return I mean you should
make a movie with that title andthen you did different examples
, but I think that's like.
That's like it can be a chapteryou left home at whatever age
and then you have whateverchapter one chapter, two
chapters, and then at whateverage.
I mean I have another person Iknow well.
She basically she even has abook in which she laments being
(44:28):
away from her family and thecommunity and then finally and
the whole book is about do I gohome, do I stay?
And after she wrote the book,within a year she actually went
home.
She moved back to Boise, idaho,after spending maybe 10 or 15
years away from the place, andso she's not exactly where she
grew up, but she's withinprobably 30 minutes there's your
(44:48):
30 minutes from where she grewup.
She's in a medium sized citycity, but close to her farm.
Basically, she grew up on afarm.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I drove through Boise just a few weeks back, so lucky
you.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I wish I had the time to do Utah and Idaho.
That sounds it was so cool todrive through, oh wow it sounds
like you were in a car a lot,but it's so much.
Yeah, going to.
I'm taking my kids to WestVirginia the day after tomorrow,
so it's completely differentside of the.
I'm taking my kids to WestVirginia the day after tomorrow,
so it's completely differentside of the of the continent,
but we're going deep into themountains and the just for the
beauty of it.
Actually, so lucky you.
(45:22):
I wish I, I wish I could dothat so easily, but it takes a
plane to get there.
I'm not driving to Boise, sorry, it's probably about 2000 miles
.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
The other case study for this book, the Return, is
Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Oh yes, his famous story, yeah, the Born to Run.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
And now he lives 10 minutes from his hometown.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yes, If you study his , I didn't include it, but when
I researched for what I wroteabout, I actually have a
paragraph on Bruce Springsteenthat got cut, and the paragraph
talks about how he's thisworld-famous star, but actually
many of his songs are aboutwhere he grew up in Jersey, new
Jersey and I even have a coupleof quotes from his songs about
(46:05):
his yearning for home.
So it's not only that he livesthere, but listen to his lyrics,
read what they say, and they'reoften yearning for home.
So actually, yes, he's a greatexample.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I can feel it, I feel the yearn.
All right.
Well, seth, this has been sucha beautiful and nourishing
conversation.
Is there anything that wehaven't said, that you feel a
yearning to share about yourself, your work, your recent latest
book?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
um, well, first of all, I give an open offer to you
, shelly, or anyone listeningwatching.
If I can be helpful in any way,by all means find me on.
Yes, linkedin is a great way tomeet people, or you can go to
sethcaplinorg.
And if you're looking for waysto improve your community, your
neighborhood, your city, by allmeans but please read Fragile
(47:00):
Neighborhoods.
But I think the thing I wouldleave people with is think local
, think hyper-local, if you canthink balance.
We need to invest in ourrelationships and our place for
them to invest in us.
If we want them to be there forus, we have to be there for
(47:20):
them.
Be a steward, like stand up andbe a steward.
Be a person who has acommitment to your place.
And I would say take some risks, don't be afraid that things
don't work out the first time.
Find partners, find allies,find organizations and by all
(47:40):
means, get to it and let's rollup our hands and roll up our
sleeves, if I may say and Idon't think it's always easy but
our lives will be richer for itand our societies will be
better for it.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Beautifully said.
I appreciate you, Seth.
It's been beautiful to connectand I really hope we reconnect
and stay connected in the future.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thank you so much.
By all means, find me if I canbe helpful in any way, shelley,
to you or your friends network,whatever watchers, by all means.
Thank you so much.
A great pleasure.
I tend to find intentionally looking to meet
people is not as good as ifyou're doing something with
people.
If you have a goal, we're goingto work together to help,
so-and-so.
And then if you spend like Iresearched and wrote about an
organization in Detroit and oneof their main activities is six
days of volunteer activities toimprove neighborhoods If you
(00:23):
join that and you spend a day ortwo volunteering with other
people, maybe you will befinding some people there in an
environment that's not there tomeet people.
But because you're working withpeople closely for the day,
you're likely to be relaxed andget to know people.
So I would always be lookingfor things like that.
Ideally, you find a few peopleand then you have partners to
(00:47):
work with and ultimately, Ibelieve neighborhoods are key
because that is where we startwith embodied relationships and
the more people you know locally, the more likely you're going
to have social wealth.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
I am your host, shelley Doyle,and today's guest is Seth Kaplan
, who's a leading expert onfragile states.
Who's worked around the worldfor NGOs and international
organizations, but his latestbook is really a homecoming,
(01:21):
talking about repairing Americansociety one zip code at a time.
So this is FragileNeighborhoods Seth's latest book
, and it was a real gift for meto connect with Seth.
We spoke a lot aboutneighborhoods and how we can
build our social capital, trustin our locality, and how so few
(01:41):
people are actually doing thisinvesting in where they live,
and Seth is really a prime casestudy for his work incredibly
intentional about where he chosehis family to live for the last
12 years, which is reallyinspiring for me as someone
that's moved quite a lot and iskind of looking for somewhere to
put down my roots.
(02:02):
The reason that Seth came ontomy radar was something they had
said on LinkedIn about socialwealth, and this term just so
spoke to me as someone who'sbeen working in the realm of
social wellbeing, social health,social capital.
The term social wealth I foundvery evocative and, in contrast
(02:23):
to social capital, it feels likesocial wealth is something that
feels quite tangible, like wecan actually put a figure on
that and see how that can beused, transferred like any other
form of wealth.
So this is really what I'mdigging into even deeper in my
master's thesis right now andI'm very thrilled that not only
(02:45):
Seth Kaplan but another of myguests, robin Dunbar two of my
guests in the last 12 months areactually featured in the
literature review of my master's.
So a huge, huge honor andprivilege to have the
opportunity to have theseindividuals come on to speak to
me and share some of theirdecades of knowledge and wisdom.
(03:07):
So I really hope you're goingto enjoy this episode.
I know that I really did enjoyspeaking to Seth.
Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
First of all, thrilled to be with you, shelley
.
Thank you so much for yourbubbling enthusiasm.
It certainly affects me, so Iappreciate that so much.
And if you want a couple ofbullets on who I am, I teach at
Johns Hopkins University.
I work in a lot of fragilecountries, conflict-prone
countries, and I have a booklast year on the fragility of
(03:37):
American society which I thinkworks.
The message works well for anycountry like the UK, australia,
canada and so on and so forthSimilar challenges that we all
face in this atomized world thatwe live in.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And many of these countries are going through big
elections, big changes.
The UK has just gone over tolabor, canada and the US have
elections looming.
So how is all of this going tobe affecting the fragility of
the states that we are living in?
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think I try not to think too much about politics.
I have I don't put politicalsigns on my front yard.
I don't have political signs onmy car.
If people talk politics I willtake an interest, but I mostly
think in these developed, stablecountries, compared to where I
(04:35):
usually work, like in Nigeria orLibya or someplace like that,
it's not the politics.
The politics can affect how wefeel, but I don't think it
should.
I think we should focus firstand foremost on things that we
can change and we can have thebiggest impact on what is around
us.
So if you ask me how they willaffect us, it will probably make
(04:57):
some people happy when theirchoice wins and they'll make
other people unhappy.
But I think we should not vesttoo much in politics that are
far from us and we should lookclose to home and think what can
we do close to home?
That is where we can have a bigimpact.
It's hard to have a big impactwhen you're talking tens of
millions of people.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I went to a TEDx TEDx Victoria recently and one of
the speakers was really justtalking about micro villages and
how this is the missing pieceand how, for some reason, like
new developments were just builtand that all it is is homes and
there was no third spacesplanned into them, which has
(05:41):
really kept everybody quiteisolated and siloed and actually
really reimagining the village.
I'd love to explore this topicwith you.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I'd be delighted to.
I think the way I would thinkabout it is that we all used to
live in something like villages.
We all used to live inplace-based communities with
lots of places to meet, lots ofinstitutions.
We shopped locally, we prayedlocally, we went to school
locally.
Whatever government or politicswas mostly involved was the
(06:14):
local.
And now these things have beenremoved further from us and
we've built a landscape in whichwe are just in our home.
And now, with technology, we'renot only in our home, we're in
our room alone.
And I would say the word that Iwould like to use is re-village
.
We want to re-village and Ididn't invent that, someone
(06:38):
named Mack McCarter who worksgreat on community building in
Shreveport Louisiana, that's hisexpression.
We want to re-villagize ourlandscapes so that we know our
neighbors, so that we have localinstitutions, that we have
local places to meet, and themore we are interacting with
(06:58):
each other in place or aroundour places and the more those
opportunities present themselvesor we create those
opportunities, the richer oursocial lives will be.
I think the more trust we willhave with each other and
actually the better we will beable to solve our problems,
because so many of our problemsare not problems of government
(07:21):
or problems of policy.
They're actually problems ofbreakdown of our relationships.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yes, and something that's coming up for me is the
word fear.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Fear.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
yes, Thinking that the streets aren't safe anymore,
and the reality is where peopleare living in so much fear that
we're not giving ourselves andour children the freedom that we
all need to thrive.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So I would say we are anxious in a way that it's
we're anxious because we don'tknow our neighbors.
We're anxious because we are.
We don't have the socialsupport network we used to have.
So in my neighborhood, when Iwalk down the street, I feel a
sense of joy.
I do not feel a sense ofanxiety.
I mean, of course, if you lookat any data on crime, crime is
way down over many, many decades.
(08:16):
But I feel a sense of joybecause I know who's behind the
houses.
I know if I'm walking aroundand I see someone, they're not
likely my friend but they'relikely a relationship because
I've seen their face regularly.
I know, if I'm walking aroundand I see someone, they're not
likely my friend but they'relikely a relationship because
I've seen their face regularly.
I know them.
I probably know how many kidsthey have or I know what's going
on a little bit with theirfamily or something like that.
(08:37):
The point is, when you havelots of relationships and also
you have lots of experiences.
Let me share an experience withyou.
I can recall many years ago myoldest daughter took her younger
brother, who was about a yearand a half, out of the car and
(08:57):
she dropped him within a fewsteps, on the cement in front of
her house.
So imagine I'm there with mywife looking at my year and a
half old son and he had a bloodychin, and you're like a frantic
parent.
I'm like what is happening?
My wife runs, picks up the kidand runs down the street.
It didn't tell me where she wasgoing.
I mean, I'm like what is goingon?
But she's great in an emergency.
What did she do?
(09:18):
She comes back a half an hourlater and he's bandaged.
She went to the closest nurse.
Because it's not a friend ofours, it's simply a relationship
.
If you live in a place with theterm that I use would be social
wealth that you know lots ofpeople, you have relationships
with each other, you know eachother, you don't feel anxious,
(09:38):
you're able to let your kidswander, You're able to go and
find help when you need help,and I could give you a hundred
stories of I needed help,somebody needed help, somebody
was there for somebody else, andhow many of us can say that?
And that's not just friends.
We all try to make friends, butI think the more important
factor is relationships.
(10:00):
Yes, good that we have someclose friends and I have a
couple of people I would callfriends in my neighborhood, but
I know hundreds of people and wehave norms of supporting each
other and we talk to each otherwhen they get to a certain age.
And that's a great contrastbecause most people they have no
one to go to who's near them,they're afraid to let their kids
(10:32):
out, they're safeguardingthemselves.
Day to day, your whole mindsetchanges.
Your feeling of joy andhappiness is not there because
you feel alone and at risk.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
So there's a couple of points I'd love to touch on
there.
I guess one of them is how haveyou built such strong ties in
your neighborhood?
And the other one is about thefreedom that we are allowing our
children in the real worldversus the virtual world.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, so why don't I do that in reverse order?
So I think I just publishedsomething on this and I think we
look at the.
Jonathan Haidt in his booktalks about how we've moved from
the play-based childhood to thephone-based childhood and about
all the downsides.
So the problem is, most of hiswork is he's literally trying to
(11:29):
get people to not allow kids toespecially not use social media
.
It's not the phones alone.
I mean, you can have a phonethat's like a dumb phone and you
could talk to your family ortalk to your neighbors, but it's
the smartphones and socialmedia that the data says is the
worst for the kids, because thatputs them into a completely
(11:50):
different mindset.
I mean, they're not present.
They have all these socialpressures and bullying and
feeling bad about themselvesbecause of the social media, not
because they're on the internetlooking for information, for
some research or they're doingat school or something.
So there's a positive side butthere's a negative side.
(12:11):
But all of his work is focusedon let's stop access to the
phone, and my argument is youcan't just focus on the bad.
You got to focus on the good,and so he does say we have to go
out and play on the good.
And so he does say we have togo out and play.
But if you're a family and youdon't know your neighbors and
you don't have relationships,it's not so simple to say go out
(12:31):
and play, who are they playingwith?
And you don't feel so trustingof your neighbors and you don't
have any places for themobviously to go to.
So I think the bigger argumentis the ability to switch from
phone to play means that we haveto have a community around us,
and it's the decay of ourcommunities that put the kids on
(12:52):
the screens in the first placeand they made them vulnerable to
the rise of social media andsmartphones.
And so we need to think of thatas like a three-part story,
three-chapter story, and so weneed to go upstream and work on
the community.
And so why my neighborhood isspecial?
Because there's various thingsthat make my neighborhood
(13:13):
special.
First, we have an abundance ofplace, unique institutions, so
we have local stores, we havelocal civic institutions, we
have local religiousinstitutions, we have local
businesses, and also we arephysically surrounded on three
sides by green, so we are a verynatural neighborhood.
(13:33):
We have a center with stores,and again, we have all these
institutions.
We have parks.
So a neighborhood is typicallystronger if it's physically
designed as a neighborhood andit has lots of place, specific
institutions in the neighborhood.
So it's not like I mean, yes, Iuse, I buy virtually, but I go
(13:55):
to restaurants locally, I go tothe supermarket locally and I
know my neighbors.
We have community schools.
One of the things that's reallytalked about is the importance
of neighborhood schools.
If your kids go to a school andtheir neighbors go to a school,
it's like the parents and thekids know their peers and they
visit their homes.
If everyone is busing to aschool, that's not going to
(14:18):
happen or you're going to aschool far away from home.
So I would say we have allthese institutions and we have a
natural environment andtherefore we have much more of a
play based childhood than mostother kids are having at this
point in time.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And having been doing this work, were you then quite
intentional about theneighborhood that you chose to?
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So if you think about my life, so my life it's, I
think, the big journey.
If I may give you the bigjourney, I had a lot of trouble
as a as a kid, with my peers.
I mean, I did fine till sixthgrade and then you got into
middle school and you go to alarger school and we had a lot
(15:01):
of bullying.
And we had a lot of bullyingand I was always good with class
but I was slow on learning allthe norms and how to behave, and
so I literally had an awfulexperience in seventh grade, so
much that we switched to adifferent public school in
eighth grade, went to theneighboring town's public school
, and so I had years seventh,eighth, ninth, into 10th grade
(15:24):
in which I was bullied and I wasleft out and I felt clearly I
didn't feel good about myself.
But that experience forced meto watch people, watch how
people treat each other, watchhow people were socialized or
the norms or how people behaved,and something about that
(15:45):
experience stayed with me.
So when I left college, alittle bit like you, shelley, I
wandered, I basically backpacked.
I lived in Africa, I lived inAsia, I lived in the Middle East
, I just wandered to, likedozens of countries and at some
point I said we need to bepractical.
So I started working on thequestion that bothered me the
most why do some states work andsome don't?
(16:06):
I mean, that's a very bigquestion and there's lots of
things you can read on it, butvery few people focused on the
nature of relationships and Iwas asking myself why does
Nigeria not work for the mostpart, and Japan, where I also
live, work so well?
Well, one is cohesive, one hasvery strong social ties, very
(16:28):
strong sense of common identity,and so that's where I started
my work.
Actually, so literally, I havea book on fragile states, the
first book ever written onfragile states and I've spent
the last 15 years of my this ismy career helping countries
based upon that book andadditional books and work.
And the main entry point for meis always how do we build
(16:49):
stronger relationships, how dowe build stronger institutions?
Because that will helpcountries thrive.
And the journey continues interms of.
I did this book, my recent bookand my recent research because
people started asking me what iswrong with our country, what is
wrong with America, and whenthat happened, over and over
again, I said I have to delveinto it, but in terms of my
(17:11):
personal journey.
So I mean, I did not grow upreligious but at one point I was
attracted to religion becausereligion especially, I felt, if
you went to the right, I went tomy tradition.
But also I was very selectivein terms of the part of my
tradition.
I went to the part that wasmost community oriented, the
(17:31):
most communitarian, and then interms of so that was one step I
made and that was like a journeyover about 10 years to get a
little bit, little bit more andmore religious, and so that was
one part.
But then when I decided, when Iwas thinking about where to live
after I got married, Iliterally looked at half a dozen
neighborhoods.
I lived in New York.
I didn't find it too communityoriented People.
(17:53):
I love New York, a lot ofdynamism, but people are not so
close to each other.
So we literally my wife and I,looked in New Jersey, looked in
Pennsylvania, looked in Marylandand I was always looking in the
direction of Washington becauseI had work here, and ultimately
we chose a place.
A neighbor actually in Brooklynsays why don't you try this
(18:14):
community?
And this place where I live nowis amazing.
So I'm so thrilled, but itreally was.
It was very intentional and itwas a lot of choices along the
way that kept leading me intomore community oriented
lifestyle.
So it's almost like I've chosenmany things to have a better
lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
And I'm on that journey right now, seth.
So I'm slapping this up andI've been exploring, like two
years ago I took my family intoan eco village where we lived
for four months to experiencehow it felt to live in community
.
Now, this was quite an intenseversion of home living.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Is that near Victoria ?
Where is that?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, it's just.
It was in Shawnegan Lake, soabout an hour north of Victoria,
and we had our own home, but ithad very limited kitchen
facilities, so we we ate incommunity like 13 meals a week,
wow so very, very intense.
Like a massive learningexperience it was how large was
the community?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
how many people?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
it fluctuated between about 12 people in the depths
of winter up to about 30.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So it was a really small.
It's not like I live in like athousand family community, so
that's like really small.
So you literally shared yourlives with, sounds to me, with
seven, 10, whatever familiesyeah, so that was.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It was a huge learning experience not not an
environment that I wish torepeat, but I do love the idea
of co-living in a way, um, butco-living in that you would
maybe have weekly meals incommunity, because I know that
the weekly the regularity ofdoing something weekly, which is
(20:01):
why what you did sound sounds abit too intense for me.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I mean I don't want to be eating every meal with
people.
It also sounds like a veryinefficient, if I may say that,
and you may not want to talk toeverybody if you live in a.
For me, the key thing withcommunity of course faith and
religion matters.
I mean it would be great if wecould have in my area there's
six houses of worship, sothere's a variety that people
(20:32):
can join.
But I would say it's the sizethat's very important.
I mean, for me this is a greatsize because that means we are
big enough to have the communityinstitutions and yet we're
small enough to have diversity.
I mean we're big enough butwe're also big enough to have
the diversity.
We're small enough that we canmore or less know all the
(20:55):
institutions.
We can always know of somebodythrough somebody.
We're not like a 50,000.
50,000 doesn't work, 20,000doesn't work.
I think 10,000 is stretching it, a thousand like houses,
families.
I mean that is a really goodsize for a community because
you've more or less goteverything you need but you
don't have a lot more than youneed and you have an intimacy
(21:18):
and a cohesion that's great whenyou get much smaller than that.
It's more of a stretch everyday in terms of what you're
doing and how about thecongregation at your church?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I wonder how many are in.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I mean, I'm Jewish, so it's synagogue, but we're
roughly about 300 families or300 people and that's.
I think that's a good size.
I mean, there's mega churcheswhich are over the top and I
wonder how you get community ina mega church.
I think you can probably get itin pieces, but I wonder if
you're just involved with lotsof networks and not not
(21:53):
community.
So in a sense, I mean for me, I, I, I think 300, 200, 300, 400,
that's a really good size interms of families or households,
but the key thing is regularand lots of other institutions
the school, the church or houseof worship or synagogue and then
(22:15):
we also have places to eat andyou have other activities going
on.
So you really are like a wholeecosystem.
It's an ecosystem that you canengage as much as you want.
If you want to stay in yourhome and just show up whatever
once a week, you can do that.
I mean, there are people whodon't even show up once a week
but they sort of know enoughpeople that they're in the
(22:37):
system.
But if it's just oneinstitution, I think it's much
harder to have a community andwhat you described in terms of
just that small number.
That sounds a littlesuffocating for me, to be very
honest it felt it a lot of thetime.
You need this attention betweenhaving too much and too little.
I would say most of us have fartoo little.
(22:59):
So what you described was sortof an opposite extreme.
But I think if you have alarger group and again many
institutions, and again the roleof place is so important, I
can't get this online, I can'tget this by just go.
I mean, again, I'm Jewish but Itell my Christian friends, if
(23:20):
you just go once a week andyou're leaving and then your
kids go some other place, that'snot related.
Where's the community?
It's just a bunch of networks.
So again, the role of place isso important.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And just you mentioned about not getting this
online, but obviously we haveaccess to have communities
online now, and I do.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Are they communities, if I may say that we use the
term, but is that really acommunity?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Well, I do wonder, and actually this is something
that I am working on, so I'vecreated a concept called the
communiverse, and the idea forthe communiverse is you do the
work to identify who the keyplayers are in your life,
(24:13):
whether they live around thecorner from you or they live the
other side of the world fromyou and like finding what
regularity you want to have inyour relationships.
And maybe it doesn't need to bethat structured, but just
understanding you know you canfeel into.
If you haven't spoken to one ofyour key players for a month,
then you probably want to bepicking up the phone to
reconnect with them, but thenkind of widening that out and
(24:34):
then thinking about what, whatgroups you are you are involved
with, because we've all gotmaximum capacity in our lives
and I think it's so easy to umget overwhelmed by the number of
groups you join and communitiesyou join, particularly online.
So it's finding that balance togain that I love the term that
you use um social wealth.
(24:56):
So finding a balance to toreally maximize your social
wealth by knowing what yourlimitations are.
So we're not using all of ourdigital time on social media,
for instance, in what a lot ofpeople are doing.
I think the sats are sayingpeople are spending between two
and a half and three and a halfhours a day on social media and
(25:17):
for some of us I know, likeLinkedIn is a fantastic
professional tool that I amdefinitely have a slight
addiction to which I do try andmanage.
But just thinking about, yeah,communities both on and offline
can be really nourishing andspending time in those
(25:39):
communities versus going onsocial media and being exposed
to thousands of people ondifferent channels every day.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
So I believe I think what you're suggesting is most
likely going to work if it'shybrid.
I mean, the thing is you'rebasing it upon embodied
relationships and using thevirtual to support the strength
of those that I think can work.
I would say that if you onlyhave virtual ties with people
(26:11):
and there's no embodiedrelationship underlying it, I'm
more skeptical that that canactually be a community, because
people can come and go andthere's, there's, there's not,
there's not the same type ofglue and there's not the same
type of um I would say um glueas well as penalties If you, if
(26:32):
you are not a good character inthe, in the network and to the
extent that you have, if youhave whatever and again it's a
question of how large could thatbe?
So if you're talking about,let's say, 15 people and you're
doing something like that andthat you're complementing some
embodied with some virtual, Imean that could be really very
(26:56):
helpful for people.
I just don't believe you canhave a completely virtual
community.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that's really animportant nugget and something
that I'm sure a lot of peoplehaven't thought of, but I do.
Also, on the flip side, I dothink having a digital
relationship with individualsthat we know personally in
person can really deepen ourrelationships yes, so as an
(27:24):
example um, let's see if there'sdistance yes, yes.
So when I first moved over herefrom the UK in 2021, feeling
incredibly disconnected, Ireally heard my soul calling,
which was to help people feelconnected which was ironic
because I didn't.
I had to start with myself first.
So I set about exploring themetaverse and inviting friends
(27:49):
and family groups into spacesthat I created, and I really did
find particularly one group ofschool friends.
We've all been friends for manydecades.
We had three digital catch upsbefore.
I then went back to the UK inthe summer and then we had a
beautiful picnic family day inthe park and in that day we all
(28:12):
had our kids there and we didn'tneed to talk about, like, a lot
of the topics, a lot of what'sbeen happening on our lives,
because we'd had those digitalcatch-ups in between.
So we were able to really justbe in presence with each other.
So I really do feel like thathybrid those digital
interactions in between physicalcatch-ups really did enhance
(28:34):
the feeling of connectedness.
When we did catch-ups I thinkit can.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I think it can because you already know the
people and you have trust, youhave some sense of
interdependency, sense of care.
And then I think I mean I seeit even in my neighborhood.
In my neighborhood, technologyis mostly bonding because we all
know each other.
We have a community WhatsAppgroups.
(29:00):
I mean we have many of them andI mean I can just give an
example of we have.
I mean I'm on one of the groupsand one of the groups I was in
Denver recently giving some talkor something and I had finished
and I was waiting, spending therest of the day there before I
was going to fly back to where Ilive in Washington, and one of
the groups I noticed that itpopped up that somebody was
(29:21):
reporting a missing child andall of a sudden all these
volunteers appeared on the group.
And so I think you're talkingabout people you know well
personally, but in this case,because we're I mean so I
totally think that's important.
In this case, I don't thinkeverybody actually knew each
other, but they were all tiedtogether because they were in a.
Maybe this group had a couplehundred people maximum, but they
(29:44):
all were neighbors, they allknew each other, they all had
some connection and boom, youhad maybe 20 or so volunteers.
We're going to meet at 4 pm.
In fact they weren't going tomeet.
We're going to go and search at4 pm, like an hour later, and
they all went off in differentdirections.
I'm going to this woods, I'mgoing up this street, I'm going
behind the supermarket, I'mgoing here and within an hour or
(30:08):
whatever of searching, they hadfound the kid and then the
texts were.
I went this far.
Can somebody pick me up BecauseI'm down by this, I'm over
there and the whole thing startto finish is maybe four hours
and boom, that was because theyknew each other.
But tech, so tech, I think canbe really helpful in helping
(30:30):
people when they are in need,keeping people well connected,
but I think there really has tobe an embodied relationship
before and so if you havewhatever number of people in
your lives and you're connectedto them regularly, or if you
could be family, friends,classmates, I certainly think
you could do a lot with that andyou could talk about positive
(30:52):
tech or tech cultivating depthor bonding in my relationships.
I think that is great.
I just think if you start fromzero, it's it doesn't have the
same outcome is what I have.
Especially when you get tolarge numbers and people can
come and go, that's really hard.
(31:12):
So for people who are feelingfor giving me, for having strong
opinions on the topic.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
No, I love it.
So for people who are feelinglike a sense of disconnect maybe
they're now working, but theydon't live in anything that they
would call a community whatcould they do?
What could they practically toreally start themselves to
(31:41):
feeling connected in theircommunity and in their digital
lives as well?
Where would you suggest theystart?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Again, people have great they're great differences
in situations.
So I hate to give one or onething that will fit everybody,
but I would always start again.
I'm really.
I really think some sort ofembodied relationship is a good
place to start.
And so I would be looking isthere a neighbor?
Is there a local institution?
(32:11):
I mean you could startvolunteering.
You can look for places wherepeople gather.
I mean, the problem is some ofour neighborhoods or places
where people live today, they'renot neighborhoods, they're just
a bunch of houses and streets.
And if you're on a cul-de-sacif you know what a cul-de-sac is
like a dead end, we sometimesuse that term as well.
(32:34):
I mean, it's easy becausepeople sort of relate that we
have some physical connection toeach other, so it's okay.
But if you just live on astreet and the cars are coming
back and forth and that's allthat is around you, what is it
that?
But I would say, look for waysto meet neighbors.
Can you have a block party, canyou invite some people over for
(32:56):
a meal?
But of course it's alwayseasier if you have one or two
other people with you.
Imagine there was three of youand you were doing something
together.
You would have more courage,you would have more connections
to start with.
You know a few, they know a few, the third person, all three.
So I'd be looking for those fewneighbors.
(33:17):
I'd be looking for whatactivity can you start?
Can you repeat that activity?
I would be looking.
If some of that seems hard, isthere something near where you
live that you can volunteer forand then show up?
I was recently in Los Angeleswith a good friend of mine and
she had relocated there near herparents and she was surprised
(33:40):
how atomized Los Angeles was.
She was from the East Coast andpeople there are, just they
don't have many, they're notstrong on relationships.
So she basically was lookingfor activities that she could go
to with a lot of othernewcomers.
I mean, la is huge so it's nota great example.
But imagine you live in aneighborhood.
(34:01):
Where is it that you go?
What activity could you join?
What volunteer activity couldyou do?
What organization could youjoin that enables you to meet
people in a relaxed environment?
I tend to find intentionallylooking to meet people is not as
(34:21):
good as if you're doingsomething with people.
If you have a goal, we're goingto work together to help,
so-and-so, and then if you spendlike I wrote about.
I researched and wrote about anorganization in Detroit and one
of their main activities is sixdays of volunteer activities to
improve neighborhoods, removeblight, beautify, repair some
(34:45):
houses.
So if you are in Detroit that'snot quite your immediate
neighborhood.
But if you join that and youspend a day or two volunteering
with other people, maybe youwill be finding some people
there in an environment that'snot there to meet people.
But because you're working withpeople closely for the day,
you're likely to be relaxed andget to know people.
(35:07):
So I would always be lookingfor things like that.
Ideally, you find a few peopleand then you have partners to
work with and ultimately Ibelieve neighborhoods are key
because that is where we startwith embodied relationships and
the more people you know locally, the more likely you're going
to have social wealth.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I've just read a paper by RobinDunbar I don't know if he's on
your radar, he's a Britishanthropologist, so it was a
recent paper and it was calledthe neurobiology of, of social
distance and they came tothere's a 30 minute cut off, so
if you live within a 30 minuteradius of somebody, your chances
(35:52):
measured by?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
measured by walking or driving, or what?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Exactly Any form of form whatever you you use.
So if you're not able to drive,then it'd need to be walking
distance, so whatever you'reable.
And so I was like, wow, that isreally a critical knowing for
me, somebody that hasn't yet putdown roots.
Um, to be more intentional andI love how intentional you were
(36:17):
by looking for that neighborhood.
So for me, I have a lot ofbeautiful connections back home
in the UK and if that is gonnabe where we end up landing, then
knowing that 30 minute rule tothen be intentional about okay,
well, who do I really reallywant in my life?
And then let's look at a 30minute radius of these
(36:40):
particular individuals, if that,if that works, I think that's
really powerful to consider as astarting point for somebody
that is going to be movinglocation.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yes, 30 minutes is good.
I mean, in terms of aneighborhood, roughly 30 minutes
walking, that's a pretty good,pretty good number for a
neighborhood.
My, my oldest child, who justturned 12, she will go in.
About three quarters of herclassmates live within 30
minutes walking.
So she's able to go out um inthe daytime and she can go to
(37:15):
any of those houses and she'swalking.
That's what she's doing and I'mthrilled that she just does
that.
I mean, she probably does thatabout once a week, maybe more
now because we're in the summer.
But that 30 minutes is a reallygood number and if it's so, I
would say in general, I likethat If it's within even closer.
(37:35):
I mean I use walking and thenyou can get a couple of other
people, then you begin to have.
It begins to have a cascadingimpact as opposed to 30 minutes
driving.
There could be five millionpeople If you're 30 minutes
walking.
I mean, I live in a suburb.
You're probably talking aboutthousands of people, so if you
could actually get a few ofthose and then they probably
(37:59):
know a few others and then a fewothers and it begins to have a
cascading impact on the peoplethat you know beautiful.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
You've traveled a great deal around the world.
What have you learned thatyou've really brought back to
incorporate into your life andyour way of living that you
would love to share, to inspireother people about, potentially,
the way that they choose tolive their lives?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I think clearly my whole focus on relationships
that's a product of my travel.
I mean, I first went off justout of curiosity, but the fact
that I spent so many years and Icontinue to spend time working
on basically fragile states,fragile countries,
(38:50):
conflict-prone countries,fragile countries,
conflict-prone countries one ofthe reasons is because I find
the richness of therelationships, the way people
treat each other in these places, I find them welcoming, I find
them warm, I find them enticing,I find myself comfortable in
that type of relationalenvironment and I find that the
(39:16):
wealthier places I mean we'retalking now about
English-speaking countriesmostly there's so many great
things that we might havebecause we're materially
well-off, we have infrastructure, we have efficiency, but we
don't emphasize relationships.
We tend to emphasize ourindividual self and there's a
(39:38):
balance there's always going tobe a balance between your
individual and the relationships.
But if you ask me what clearlyhas had a strong impact on me,
it's just this feeling of warmthand relationships that I've got
from people and relationshipsthat I've got from people.
I think it's affected all partsof my life choice.
Even the person I've marriedcomes from one of these fragile
(40:00):
places.
She originally came.
She comes from the poorestcountry in Europe, a place in
Eastern Europe, and so she comesfrom a very relational culture.
It's just my culture.
I feel most comfortable withvery relationship.
I would use the term thicksocieties In fact I use that in
one of my books thick versusthin.
(40:20):
We in the English speakingworld we live in a very thin
society mostly not always andnot everywhere, Depends where
you are but I've always feltmyself much more comfortable in
thick societies with thick bondsand thick institutions and I
would say, thick norms.
We should do this now, weshould do that then, and that's
(40:41):
not for everybody, but I find itvery comforting.
So, that's probably the thingthat I bring back the most is
this appreciation, this emphasis.
I'm sure it's affected mychoices about becoming more
religious, because a lot ofthese places people are very
religious and it's affected, Imean, everything from my desire
(41:01):
to live in a thicker communityto my desire in terms of how I
spend my time.
I don't send money mostly tofaraway charities.
I look for charities close tohome.
I don't volunteer for farawaycharities.
I'm on the board of a localnonprofit and I help with
another nonprofit and so on andso forth.
These are all the thingsbecause I believe the more I
(41:22):
focus on the local, the more,the more the local will give to
me or I'll give to the local.
I just find this to be a veryand so I think, if you ask me
what I bring back, it's not aparticular thing.
It's this mindset and thisculture.
Um, I must have had some of itbefore, but it's certainly all
come out much richer because ofall my experiences in many
(41:44):
countries.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I don't know why, but the comedian Dave Chappelle is
coming to my mind.
Um quite a lot of his um, hisuh like shows and his
documentaries and and he he'salways returned to his hometown
and he's very grounded you knowthat.
I didn't know that and he'sjust so happy and he's, and
everyone knows him, everybodyknows him, and he's just Dave
(42:10):
it's a different experience.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I I mean honestly it's different experience.
I think the virtual does giveus the opportunity.
I mean I have.
I know people.
They said I don't need to livein Washington DC, I can move
back.
I have a former classmate aclassmate not a classmate, a
student.
She says I'm moving back toCleveland, I can continue my
career.
I can do it all virtually.
(42:32):
I'll just fly when I have toand I'll live near my parents
because we have a bettercommunity in Cleveland and I
have more family and classmatesand all that there.
And so I believe more of us wantto do that than we are.
Technology it could allow us tomake those choices.
(42:53):
We ourselves have to make thosechoices, but the technology
means we miss less, we haveaccess to more and we can stay
vested in smaller places, placeswhere people actually know each
other, care for each other in away that they don't, and
sometimes in big cities,especially in my country, on the
coast.
On the coast they're more likepeople came there from elsewhere
(43:15):
and they're strangers, but ifyou go to the heartland you tend
to know people much more yeah,there's definitely been a theme
that's been running through myrecent conversations about the
return and the return yes,hero's journey.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And and so many of us go on this big worldwide
exploration only to really feelthe yearning to return, but
returning with fresh eyes.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Yes.
So there's organizations thathelp people do that.
For example, in America we haveLead for America that helps
people from top universities goback and don't basically change
their career path.
So they're going home and theycan be leaders at 25 as opposed
to being in a big city and somebig organizations.
They're not gonna be leadersuntil they're 45.
(44:04):
But I also think this idea ofthe return I mean you should
make a movie with that title andthen you did different examples
, but I think that's like.
That's like it can be a chapteryou left home at whatever age
and then you have whateverchapter one chapter, two
chapters, and then at whateverage.
I mean I have another person Iknow well.
She basically she even has abook in which she laments being
(44:28):
away from her family and thecommunity and then finally and
the whole book is about do I gohome, do I stay?
And after she wrote the book,within a year she actually went
home.
She moved back to Boise, idaho,after spending maybe 10 or 15
years away from the place, andso she's not exactly where she
grew up, but she's withinprobably 30 minutes there's your
(44:48):
30 minutes from where she grewup.
She's in a medium sized citycity, but close to her farm.
Basically, she grew up on afarm.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I drove through Boise just a few weeks back, so lucky
you.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I wish I had the time to do Utah and Idaho.
That sounds it was so cool todrive through, oh wow it sounds
like you were in a car a lot,but it's so much.
Yeah, going to.
I'm taking my kids to WestVirginia the day after tomorrow,
so it's completely differentside of the.
I'm taking my kids to WestVirginia the day after tomorrow,
so it's completely differentside of the of the continent,
but we're going deep into themountains and the just for the
beauty of it.
Actually, so lucky you.
(45:22):
I wish I, I wish I could dothat so easily, but it takes a
plane to get there.
I'm not driving to Boise, sorry, it's probably about 2000 miles
.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
The other case study for this book, the Return, is
Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Oh yes, his famous story, yeah, the Born to Run.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
And now he lives 10 minutes from his hometown.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yes, If you study his , I didn't include it, but when
I researched for what I wroteabout, I actually have a
paragraph on Bruce Springsteenthat got cut, and the paragraph
talks about how he's thisworld-famous star, but actually
many of his songs are aboutwhere he grew up in Jersey, new
Jersey and I even have a coupleof quotes from his songs about
(46:05):
his yearning for home.
So it's not only that he livesthere, but listen to his lyrics,
read what they say, and they'reoften yearning for home.
So actually, yes, he's a greatexample.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I can feel it, I feel the yearn.
All right.
Well, seth, this has been sucha beautiful and nourishing
conversation.
Is there anything that wehaven't said, that you feel a
yearning to share about yourself, your work, your recent latest
book?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
um, well, first of all, I give an open offer to you
, shelly, or anyone listeningwatching.
If I can be helpful in any way,by all means find me on.
Yes, linkedin is a great way tomeet people, or you can go to
sethcaplinorg.
And if you're looking for waysto improve your community, your
neighborhood, your city, by allmeans but please read Fragile
(47:00):
Neighborhoods.
But I think the thing I wouldleave people with is think local
, think hyper-local, if you canthink balance.
We need to invest in ourrelationships and our place for
them to invest in us.
If we want them to be there forus, we have to be there for
(47:20):
them.
Be a steward, like stand up andbe a steward.
Be a person who has acommitment to your place.
And I would say take some risks, don't be afraid that things
don't work out the first time.
Find partners, find allies,find organizations and by all
(47:40):
means, get to it and let's rollup our hands and roll up our
sleeves, if I may say and Idon't think it's always easy but
our lives will be richer for itand our societies will be
better for it.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Beautifully said.
I appreciate you, Seth.
It's been beautiful to connectand I really hope we reconnect
and stay connected in the future.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Thank you so much.
By all means, find me if I canbe helpful in any way, shelley,
to you or your friends network,whatever watchers, by all means.
Thank you so much.
A great pleasure.
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