#31 - Dr. Kiffer Card - **WORLD FIRST** NEW Social Connection Guidelines are launched in Canada - Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
social connection is one of these interesting public
health behaviors.
If I want to go on a diet, Icould.
I could try to go on a diet onmy own.
It wouldn't take anyone elsenecessarily to make that
decision.
Certainly, if people help meI'll be much more successful.
But I can do that on my own.
Social connection isn'tsomething you can do on your own
.
It takes the community, ittakes people, and so so our

(00:21):
community guidelines are thereto recognize that this isn't
something people are necessarilyempowered to do, and so we give
advice to communities that theyneed to help raise awareness
about the importance of socialconnection.
Most people, I think,intuitively, know that social
connection is good for you.
Most of us have relationshipsin which we think that
relationship can ruin my day ormake my day right.
We know that social, but mostof us don't know that it's worse

(00:44):
.
You know being lonely is worsethan being obese, right, and
every time I go to the doctorthey weigh my weight.
But how often will they ask meabout my relationships and my
connections and how I'm beingfulfilled in that way?

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
My name is Shelley Doyle andI'm here today with Dr Kifakad.
Before I introduce Dr Kifakad,I'm just going to share a brief
update on myself.
I'm really excited to reportthat since my last podcast was
filmed, I have secured acorporate research partner for

(01:16):
my Royal Roads Masters research.
I can't say much more than thatat this time, but I'm super
thrilled that an organizationhas really seen the value in my
mission, my passion and andreally seen that I am somebody
that they believe can make apositive change to their remote
and hybrid leaders.
So really excited.

(01:36):
I will be sharing more when Ican, um, but for now that's
where I'm at um.
Dr K Kip Akad is someone this isour second attempt to podcast
together.
He is not an easy man to gethold of.
He is someone who is at theforefront of social connection
here in Canada.
He is a professor at SimonFraser University leading the

(01:58):
way in social connection.
Alongside Jen Well Cash, he'sbeen working on the Canadian
social connection guidelines.
Not sure how much of this he'sable to share with me here today
before a big conference inVancouver in a couple of weeks.
So let's see.
And I know there's also been alot of research that Dr Kiff has
been involved with in terms ofpsychedelics and psychoactive.

(02:20):
Again, not sure how much youcan share here, dr Kiff, but
really welcome you to explorethis space here today.
So let's see Hello and welcome.
How are you and what is reallytaking up most of your thought
energy right now?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Good to be with you, shelley.
Yeah, I think definitely a lotof exciting stuff and happy to
talk about some of the researchtopics you mentioned.
My passion is really emotionsand emotional distress in the
context of public health, andwhy don't our social structures
and institutions take emotionsseriously when in fact they have

(03:00):
a huge impact on our wealth andwell-being?
So that's what my researchmostly focuses on.
In my personal life, you know,I have a partner and a dog and
they take up all the energy andemotions that those things do in
life.
And so you know I'm actuallydown in Bellingham, our dog is
getting some cancer treatmentsand so we're here in Bellingham,

(03:24):
washington, seeing a vet theonly clinic in the whole world
that offers this procedure.
So that's probably taking upthe most of my mind space these
days.
But you know, really gratefulfor you know really grateful for
the time and space to talkabout connection, because in my
life connections really core toeverything I believe in and do
and and I'm very privileged tohave it be my research and work

(03:47):
in life.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Beautiful.
So last summer I had theprivilege of interviewing Dr
Robin Dunbar on my podcast andand, and his framework has
really stuck in my mind.
But the last few years, reallyjust thinking about the spheres
of intimacy in our, in our livesand just thinking about your
dog, there you obviously, um,you is obviously this very deep

(04:13):
connection that you have withyour pet.
So like thinking of thosespheres of intimacy, like where
would, where would they sit inyour connection, in your
connection circles?

Speaker 1 (04:27):
in your connection circles.
Yeah, robin's work is reallyinteresting.
The the, the innermost layer,uh, he says, is 1.5 people, uh,
large on average, and he, hesays typically this is gendered
and that men tend to have theirwives filling that spot, or
girlfriends or or other partners, uh, you know, and women tend
to have their partner plus theirbest friend, and so on average
it works out to 1.5.
I always say that my dog is mybest friend and so I'm a one.

(04:51):
I'm part of the 1.5 crowd andmaybe a dog gets to count as
half.
But there's been some researchon these networks and how people
feel them.
Even a belief in God couldoccupy one of those layered
networks, because it depends whoyou connect to.
Yeah, I'm definitely a dogperson, you know, an animal
person in general, so I'm happyto have animals in my innermost

(05:13):
circles.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
And I did watch the results from the 2022 Canadian
Social Connection Survey thatyou presented.
That is available on YouTubeYouTube.
I'll put a link to that belowour podcast here and what I
found intriguing was it wassaying about the close friends
that Canadians have, and 19% ofclose friends come from the

(05:36):
workplace.
So, bearing in mind, all of ourwork, lives and dynamics have
had a shift of some respect overthe last few years.
I wonder how that's going toplay into people's friendships.
Anything on that?

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I think one of the things thatI think about a lot in my work
is about our time and how wehave time and how time is this
one thing that really can't betaken away from us by someone
else.
We can only give our time,right.
You can throw me in jail, youcan take my freedom, my property

(06:14):
, all of that, but I have togive you my time, and I think,
when it comes to time, we spenda lot of time at work.
I think something like a thirdof our waking hours are spent in
the workplace, and so if we'renot making strong, meaningful
connections in the workplace,we're missing out on a huge
opportunity for socialconnection.

(06:35):
I think it's actually RobinDunbar's work you mentioned at
the beginning of our, where theytalked about nomadic and
pastoralist societies and peopleget, on average, 21 to 24 hours
a week of socialization.
I think in today's modern,fast-paced world, some of us
would take 24 hours.
Where would I find the time?

Speaker 2 (06:53):
and I think workplaces are one of those
places you can find the time anddo you think that we can make
friends through the screen, likewhen we're, when we're just
having digital interactions, ordo you think that we need some
physical to kind of embed thoserelationships?

Speaker 1 (07:12):
yeah, I think, uh, you know there's a lot of some
sometimes people in in in thiswork talk.
I mean, there's been a lot oftalk around like social media
and its influences on youth andthat sort of thing.
Certainly there are lots ofthings to be concerned or
worried about that need furtherresearch and study and careful
attention from parents andfamily members.
But I think, on the whole,technology can be used as a tool

(07:35):
for social connection.
I think many communities, ifyou're living with a disability
and you're homebound, the onlyway you might be able to connect
with somebody is throughLifeline.
If you're part of a marginalizedcommunity, the only connections
you might have to other peoplein your community are through
the internet.
So I think they're vital to theway that we've structured

(07:56):
ourselves in our lives socially,and we actually have some data
that shows that the people whowe're most connected to are not
people we most often are notonly people who are most
connected to are not people.
We most often are not onlypeople who we most often see in
person, but we most ofteninteract with those people
online and using technologies aswell, and so those things
aren't necessarily conflict,they're together.
However, when technologysupplants or replaces our social

(08:18):
connections, then it's not good, because there is a good body
of research that shows that inin-person, face-to-face social
connection seems to offer thingsyou know enhanced understanding
, body language, bettercommunication, better emotion
recognition, um bettersynchronization that you don't
get when you're interacting, say, on the phone or texting, or

(08:40):
via zoom even yeah, totally, andI definitely feel like there's
something in live.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
So, like I'm having a live conversation with you
today and for me I this willfill me up for the day, like I
won't necessarily need outsideof my family that I'm blessed to
have in my home.
I won't necessarily feel thesocial need to have another big
live interaction today becausewe've had this and I think

(09:07):
there's definitely a differencebetween that live versus like
social media, scrolling thepassive.
So live versus passive, that'swhat I'm really feeling and
sensing in my own life and alittle bit in the research that
I've started started doingmyself own life and a little bit

(09:27):
in the research that I'vestarted started doing myself.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, this active versus passive use, I think, uh,
you know, I think it's.
It's a lot of things in life,when you're engaged actively,
when you're acting withintention, that's when we see
people really thrive.
Uh, when, when people arepassive and they passively cope
with stress and those sort ofthings, that's when we see
people not thriving.
And so, you know, I think thesame thing is with our
technology is if you're beingsmart about how you use
technology, even scrolling andfinding memes so that you can

(09:51):
share them with friends, so youcan.
You know, connect is ameaningful part of the way we
connect today, and so I wouldn'tdiscount it.
But definitely, the more activeand the more thoughtful you are
about this is actuallybenefiting me.
Is it benefiting myrelationship?
Are we growing together?
That sort of intentionality isreally what makes relationships
work right.
Relationships just don't workfor no reason.

(10:13):
They work because people puteffort and time and thought into
it, and that's something thatall of us could be more
thoughtful of, whether that's inour workplace relationships or,
you know, any friendship, or,like you said today on today's
zoom call and I love that wordthat you use the intention like
how can we just take a breathand start being more intentional

(10:36):
?

Speaker 2 (10:37):
and actually, this is the first part of the work that
I'm going to be doing with thiscorporate group.
The first step is disconnectdisconnect from everything, to
then reconnect with moreintention.
And one of the pieces in myresearch on social wealth, one
of the foundational pillars ofsocial wealth, is personal
expression.

(10:57):
And it's that moment ofdisconnecting.
It's then questioning am I ableto express myself authentically
on this channel, that I usethis channel, that I use this
channel that I use and start tofeel into.
Okay, maybe one of them is morealigned with where I'm at right
now, like all the differentsocial channels are going to be

(11:18):
speaking to different audiences,different groups of people that
you've collected along your way.
So, starting to feel into okay,I'm expressing myself here, but
actually it's not landing.
It's not landing because thisaudience isn't, they're not
professional connections,they're actually friends and
actually they don't necessarilywant to be hearing that side of

(11:39):
my life.
So how can I express myselfmore personally to this group
that is going to land?
So, yeah, that's part of thework that I'm going to be doing.
And all of this I'm testing itin my own life and failing all
the time to get it right.
Finally one day.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the big challenges
with social media andtechnology is you know they talk
about it in self-monitoring,and self-monitoring is one of
the big things that underliesfeelings of loneliness and
isolation and disconnection,that sense that you aren't your
authentic self, that you have tothink about and how you perform
.
And technology asks us to dothat because, like you've said,

(12:20):
there's different platforms,there's different spaces, we are
, in essence, different peopleand so I think, to really meet
our psychological needs forautonomy, for competence and for
belonging you know that'sfrustrated today by some of
these channels and technology.
So sometimes the best thing youcan do with one is disconnect
from it Because you know maybeit's not working for you and

(12:42):
that's totally fine.
And I think I think doing a youknow some people call it like a
technology audit Just thinkabout how do you use technology,
what's working for you, what'snot?
Most of us click on theInstagram app or the Facebook
app or the LinkedIn app almostout of habit, right?
We just go through our list onour phone and we just click on
them out of habit, withoutsecond thought.

(13:03):
Through our list on our phoneand we just click on them out of
habit without second thought,and I think taking that thought
is really, really a smart moveto take, even if you have to set
a reminder in your phone toonce a month.
Just take five minutes.
Think about how have I beenusing technology and is it
working for me.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing.
And, while we're in this space,I wonder if you'd be open to
delving a bit into likepsychoactive medicines and how
they might help us to maybereflect and reconnect with a bit
more intention.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, I mean this is obviously very exciting and
cutting edge science.
You know, over the past fewyears it's been increasingly
recognized that psychedelics canbe used in therapeutic contexts
.
You know, certainly this is notthe first time there's been a
lot of research in this area butit is something that's new.

(13:57):
When it comes to our socialwell-being, I think there's a
few key statistics to considerabout social connection and
development.
One is that about 50% of thevariation in loneliness, about
half of it, really seems to begenetic or inherited from your
parents and early familyenvironment.
So most of your vulnerabilityto loneliness is something
that's not necessarily withinyour control or not necessarily

(14:18):
within the environment's parentsand early family environment.
So most of your vulnerabilityto loneliness is something
that's not necessarily withinyour control or not necessarily
within the environment'sinfluence.
And so that emotionalsatisfaction is believed to
really find its beginning inearly childhood and what we call
critical periods of development.
And you actually see this.
If you follow people over along period of time and ask

(14:39):
their loneliness over that time,you see that it has what we
call trait like stability, andthat just means that your
personality we considerpersonality to have trait like
stability, because yourpersonality stays somewhat
stable throughout most of yourlife and we see that with
loneliness that it increasesinto young adulthood, into early
childhood, and then isbasically stable and flat.

(15:02):
And I think that highlightsthis big conundrum or challenge
about how do we intervene toaddress loneliness, because we
know loneliness is associatedwith huge health effects.
You know 30 to 50% increase inrisk for mortality.
So it's a very bad condition,worse than smoking, drinking,
obesity, sedentary living, airpollution, all that.

(15:22):
And so how do we change that inpeople, I think, is the
question.
And in psychedelic medicinesthey've been studying this idea
of critical periods ofdevelopment, and our critical
period of social development isearly in life and so it's hard
to intervene on that early lifeperiod for a number of reasons.
But so people have wonderedwell, can we reopen a critical

(15:45):
period of development and dopsychedelics give people the
introspective opportunity tothink about and to objectively
evaluate themselves in ways thatallow them to maybe do some
tinkering in their experiences?
And so that's our interest inpsychedelic medicine.
We see, for example, thatpeople with adverse childhood

(16:05):
experiences benefit quite a bitfrom these sort of things.
Ptsd, other mental healthconditions all seem to show
fairly good improvements, and soour hope is that maybe
broadening that a bit out fromthe traditional medical model to
think about our broader socialdevelopment and who we are as
people and our attachment toothers and how we love, can we

(16:26):
actually moderate that.
So I don't do the basic clinicalscience, I do observational
natural experiments where peoplewho naturally use these drugs
throughout the course of theirlife or through seeking therapy,
you know, because obviouslyit's not easy to do those big,
large trials it costs about amillion dollars to put 3040
people through a trial and ofcourse the funding on this topic

(16:46):
isn't necessarily the easiestbecause of so much stigma around
drugs.
So that's, that's the work andthat's kind of my interest in
that.
That that I think shows a lotof promise and I think over the
next few years I think we'll seethat that it does pan out.
Um, and I think over the nextfew years I think we'll see that
that it does pan out um thatthere are like really good
benefits of some of these, uh,some of these medicines like
psilocybin and and mdma forexample and there's.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
there's two different trains of thought that I've
heard in this space, and one isthat actually you don't need
many, but you can have a few bigexperiences and they can really
help to lift you beyond,whether that's PTSD or whatever
you're really struggling with.
But then the other train ofthought is micro dosing and

(17:31):
that's much more regular butsmall doses that you wouldn't
necessarily feel, but it'sreally helping to rewire your
brain yeah, and I think I thinkthe jury is still a bit out on
some of these things.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Uh, there's.
There's current great workgoing on by zach walsh at ubc
around microdosing in particular.
Microdosing has had a bit ofcontroversy for the reason you
mentioned as to whether or notyou really need those profound
psychedelic moments.
Most what we call likeprotocols or therapies for
psychedelic medicine usuallyinvolve a session where you use

(18:09):
the drug and then several whatwe call integration sessions
where you work with a therapistto reflect on that experience
and that is believed that thereare some neuroplasticity,
there's some change possibleeven when you're not at the
highest height of the drug.
So basically, taking that astep further, it's that even at
low doses there's someneuroplasticity and you might be

(18:31):
able to work through.
Don't think we know for sureyet, but I think both show
promise and maybe both havedifferent mechanisms of action.
There might be a directmechanism, say, for a micro dose
, but maybe a differentmechanism for that for those
larger kind of doses.

(18:52):
My work is mostly focused onkind of the larger.
You know my interests aremostly on those larger doses
Because I think that you know,in terms of shaping your social
development, that's going totake thinking.
We know that loneliness andsocial isolation, of all the
factors that drive into it, it'show you think your social
cognition is what we call that,that that's the biggest factor

(19:14):
in shaping your well being, andso so we think to alter social
cognition you probably need abit more intentionality going
into that work, and sotherapeutic systems that that
involve kind of those large,larger doses tend to be the ones
that allow for more of that.
I guess introspection to takeplace.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
This summer I went up to Parksville and there's a
little town close to that thatactually has this little
mushroom hut, so I got somemicro doses.
So I've been toying with mylike very micro dosing since
then.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, that's, it's very.
I think that's.
One of the cool things about itis that they're widely
accessible, particularlypsilocybin, which is where I
started some of my work inpsychedelic medicine, and the
reason I started with psilocybinwas because it's so widely
accessible that I think peopleare going to use it.
So we should understand it, weshould know how to give them the
best advice we can.
That, if you're going to usehere's the best practices, best

(20:14):
guidance we can give, and sosomebody who's concerned with
public health and making surepeople are empowered with
knowledge, you know, I thinkthat's a, that's a really great,
you know, a real great reasonto focus on some of these
because people are using themand they're trying to figure out
for themselves.
And wouldn't it be nice to justhave some good guidance?
And you know, in our currentlegal model that's made it too

(20:36):
difficult.
So we're lucky in academia tobe able to like, think about and
, to you know, publish aboutthem, to share that no we
actually you know.
Here's what we know, at leastyeah, amazing, amazing.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, I've been exploring the stamet stack,
which, which is lion's mane,psilocybin and niacin, which
kind of give this flushingeffect, which is meant to really
activate the um, lion's mane, Ibelieve.
Okay, let's bring us back.
So in a couple of weeks, youwill be leading the opening of

(21:13):
the human connection conferencein vancouver, and I believe this
might be where you're sheddingsome insight into the new social
connection guidelines forCanada.
Is this so, and is thereanything that you can share with
us here ahead of that?

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah.
So we've been developing overthe past few years through a
variety of methods to developthese recommended national
public health guidelines forsocial connection that we hope
not only Canada but the US andevery other country around the
globe can adopt and hopefullythat WHO and other global health

(21:51):
organizations will also, youknow, pay attention to our
launch of our recommendedguidelines.
You know, through thedevelopment of these guidelines
we've developed more than 49evidence briefs and reviews.
We've conducted more than 60interviews with people from key
populations, including frommarginalized and equity-seeking

(22:11):
groups, and we've conductedwhat's called a Delphi study,
which is just an iterative backand forth kind of conversation
but over, you know, interviewsand focus groups and surveys
with some of the globe's leadingexperts on social connection,
mostly social psychologists, butalso people in community design

(22:31):
and that sort of thing.
And from all this data, pullingtogether our survey data, our,
you know data from the existingresearch and literature, our
interview data with experts,we've developed 12 public health
guidelines for socialconnection.
Six of those are tailored toindividuals.
They address things about thestructure of your social network

(22:53):
, the function of it, thequality of your network, making
sure you make social connectiona priority, how to use
technology wisely, and the sixguidelines for communities are
an acknowledgement that peoplecan't do this alone.
You know, social connection isone of these interesting public
health behaviors.
If I want to go on a diet, Icould try to go on a diet on my

(23:15):
own.
It wouldn't take anyone elsenecessarily to make that
decision.
Anyone else necessarily to makethat decision?
But I can do that on my own.
Social connection isn'tsomething you can do on your own
.
It takes a community, it takespeople, and so our community
guidelines are there torecognize that this isn't
something people are necessarilyempowered to do, and so we give

(23:35):
advice to communities that theyneed to help raise awareness
about the importance of socialconnection.
Most people, I thinkintuitively, know that social
connection is good for you.
Most of us have relationshipsin which we think that
relationship can ruin my day ormake my day right.
We know that social, but mostof us don't know that it's worse
.
You know being lonely is worsethan being obese, right, and

(23:56):
every time I go to the doctorthey weigh my weight.
But how often will they ask meabout my relationships and my
connections and how I'm beingfulfilled in that way, and so
our community guidelines.
We want communities to raiseawareness of the importance of
this.
We want policies to reflectthis.
You know, an example of policyis like your bus schedule.
If your bus schedule doesn'tmatch up with people's social
lives, they're not going to beable to get to their friends'

(24:18):
houses.
Do those connections.
So we want policy and practiceto match our social needs and we
want communities to reallyfocus on inclusion and
accessibility.
We want them to focus onpractices and building
communities in ways.
So do we build apartments thatare big enough for people to
have friends over, or do they atleast have common areas in

(24:40):
their buildings?
Are our parks designed to walkthrough or sit in and do a
company in?
You know, thinking about thesevarious things, about how we
design environments for optimalsocial connection, that's
something cities andmunicipalities and other forms
of communities, evenneighborhood groups, need to do,
and so our public healthguidelines really span the full
spectrum of what you can do asan individual and what our

(25:03):
society needs to do to reallymake social connections and
relationships a priority in ameaningful way.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Wow, thank you for sharing that.
That just sounds so much morecomprehensive than I could ever
have imagined it was going to be.
That sounds really, reallyexciting.
I have been speaking with PaulKahn, or the Honorable Paul Kahn
OBE, at the GILC and, yeah, Iwonder how much they are already

(25:35):
aware of this and, if not, Iwonder if there's any hybridized
sessions at the HumanConnection Conference in
Vancouver that they could belooped in on.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Certainly, members of the GILC are on the expert
advisory committee, people likeJoe Babcock and Gillian
Holt-Lunstad.
They're some of the globalleading experts on social
connections and public healthresponses to loneliness and
isolation, and so they'recertainly looped in as members
of our expert advisory panel.
And once we get the guidelineslaunched, one of our big efforts

(26:08):
will be to work with thesenational organizations to figure
out okay, here they are, here'swhat we've got.
But also to start thinking,just like we update nutrition
guidelines and we update alcoholguidelines, our kind of plan is
to relook at these guidelinesevery five years to assess where
is the evidence at now?
Can we give better guidance nowthan we were able to give five

(26:28):
years ago?
Our initial guidelines, you knowthey're flexible, they're
tailored.
They allow individuals totailor the guidelines themselves
.
We don't tell you that you needfive friends or you're going to
like be lonely.
We tell you to think about thenumber of friends you have and
think about those relationships.
We do think we have someevidence that shows three to
five friends it seems to besomewhat of a minimum that if

(26:50):
you have less than that, you'rereally vulnerable to loneliness
and isolation.
But we don't give peoplenumbers per se.
We give them tools to thinkabout their social connections.
But maybe one day we'll havebetter guidance and better
evidence to support morespecific and detailed responses
and we would continue to need,you know, collaborations in the
global public health communityand global social connection

(27:11):
community to kind of develop andrefine those guidelines what's
coming up for me, just alsothinking the other way.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Like people that have a very big job, they also have
a lot of friends and connectionsand they're possibly just
feeling overwhelmed with thenumber of people that they
should be keeping in contactwith and maybe some help to
navigate how they can stayconnected and feel like these

(27:42):
people are in their lives,whilst not feeling the guilt
that they're not there orthey're not remembering people's
birthdays and not doing thisand that because there's just
too many people to kind offacilitate in their busy lives.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, there's been some interesting research out of
SFU in the UK aroundre-contacting friends and
basically they find that it'sreally hard to get people to
recontact old friends and I wastalking with one of the lead
authors of that and you know Ikind of hypothesize that.
One of the things is we feelvery guilty when you've let a

(28:16):
relationship die, when you'velet it down.
When you've let a relationshipdie, when you've let it down,
you feel guilty like oh, Ididn't invest in that, they
don't think I value them, when Ithink it's important for us to
recognize that that's notentirely the case.
It's natural.
It's a natural psychologicalprocess that we call it social
emotional selectivity and wetend to get more selective as we

(28:38):
age.
But we tend to selectrelationships that offer the
greatest meaning and fulfillmentto our lives and that means
that we do end up losing somecontact with people who are and
it's not because we don't likethose body weight.

(28:59):
Your brain is the most complexand most energy intensive thing
and if you think about the wholedevelopment of the brain, it's
built for social connection,right?
This is one of Robin Dunbar'sbig points in his work is that
you know you have a.
Your neural architecture is allreally social Ants.
Ants can find food and go towar.
You know.
They can do everything withvery small, simple nervous

(29:20):
systems.
Human beings have huge brainsbecause we have complex social
worlds and so I think that ideaof, you know, having too big of
a social network, it's a veryreal problem.
We do see that there isactually rebounds in loneliness
in our data that if people havevery large social networks say
10 or more people that theyidentify as a close friend that

(29:41):
those people actually start tofeel more lonely.
And again it comes back to thebasic constraints that I've only
got 24 hours a day.
I got to spend eight hours ofthose sleeping, eight hours of
those working.
The time I have to give isgoing to be limited.
So if I divide that timeamongst more people, my average
relational closeness or myaverage emotional connection to

(30:02):
each person in my network isgoing to be lower and that's
going to overall give me thesense of I'm disconnected, I
don't have true meaningfulrelationships.
So I think that like sense ofburden and responsibility, like
that's just a real natural partof being human and the natural
constraints of our lives, and soI think it is something we've
got to navigate carefully andwith intentionality and thinking

(30:24):
about.
You know, how is my socialnetwork?
How am I fulfilling theseobligations?
You know Robin Dunbar's work.
Around you can have about 150friends.
Well, and sometimes some of usin our just our work lives alone
have 150 people we have to keeptrack of, and so, adding on top
of that, all these otherdomains of life can really be
really be a challenge, and Ithink that's one of the big

(30:44):
challenges of our modern life.
You know, we evolved in tribesof 30 to 50 people.
That's all our brains arereally built for the same 30 to
50 people your whole life.
And now we've got, you know, somany people strangers on the
street that you know never seein in our evolved, uh, kind of
environment, and so thatevolutionary mismatch is
sometimes used.
The term for this is that howwe evolved and what we're being

(31:07):
asked to do now are incongruent,and so we've got to think a
little carefully about how welead our lives and making sure
that we don't, you know, livetoo outside the boundaries of
what a human being can do andwhat you said before about the
guilt.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
I certainly had that and when I, when I moved to
Canada, I I just felt like noone was.
No one cared that we weremoving.
The reality was that I used tobe a big instigator.
I'd be the one to bring groupstogether.
I was always kind of in themiddle of it all.
And then I got a proper jobafter being self-employed for

(31:46):
many years and I had twochildren and I didn't have the
capacity to be the facilitatorthat I once was and I also lived
a few hours away from most ofmy friends and family.
So before even moving to Canada, I'd already kind of steps
aside from that instigator role.
And then, when we moved here, Ibarely really told anyone that

(32:10):
we were coming.
I mean, we couldn't have aleaving party because of the
restrictions.
And then, you know, I kind ofjust came quietly and then
feeling like people didn't care.
It's like well, well, I wasn'tposting anything on social media
.
It's like how could people careif I'm not letting them know
that they matter to me?
So, like after, after doingthis work, I can see now there

(32:33):
are so many things that I couldhave done to help people know
that I cared enough to tell themdirectly personally that we
were going and like what ourintention was, but I wasn't
inviting people to feel likethey're on this journey with me,
so they weren't.
They weren't on board thisjourney with me.
So I like, looking at Dunbar'snumber, I effectively just let

(32:56):
everybody out.
Like my bus was free to startinviting new people on board and
yet we went back into lockdown.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
So there was like the pool of people to invite was
very slim yeah, yeah, I think Ithink this is one of the reasons
we're advancing our guidelines.
Work is, I think that the normsand the permission structures
around our social lives are notvery good in contemporary
society.
I think there's a lot of socialanxiety, a lot of desire.

(33:28):
We're taught that we need to beindependent and self-reliant
and those are sometimes barriers.
We're taught not to be a burdenon somebody else.
So I, as your friend might notwant to express, I had a friend
a couple of years ago.
My best friend moved fromVictoria to Vancouver just an
hour and a half ferry ride, a45-minute drive, and we could

(33:49):
have seen each other and I wasvery saddened by the move.
It was hard on me to see himleave, but I didn't necessarily
want to express that.
I didn't feel like I had thepermission structures to say I
really wish you weren't moving,I wish we did a better job of

(34:09):
having community in a way thatyou didn't want to move type
thing.
But we don't want to be aburden, we don't want to tie
anyone down, we don't want tofeel any obligation to each
other and I think that's aproblem in our society, I think.
I think we need to build thepermission structures between
friends and family and build thenorms.
You know, the norm now is thatyou move out when you're 18 and

(34:31):
you go to college, right, andyou leave your family and that
you start work in a differentcity and you live there your
whole life, away from yourfamily, and you'll maybe see
your parents 10 times more inyour life.
Right, that's not natural, um,and it's not necessarily the
best, and so I think that thatthat's one of the big challenges
of contemporary life is likeknowing how to navigate those

(34:52):
like complexities of like beingthe instigator, you know, but
also not wanting to put pressureon people, and you know.
Or feeling like you're notheard or seen, but also not
letting yourself be heard orseen because you don't want to
put pressure on people, and youknow.
Or feeling like you're notheard or seen, but also not
letting yourself be heard orseen because you don't want to
put obligations on other people.
But I think that's one of thebig things, that if we can make
social connection a priority foreveryone, then everyone would

(35:13):
maybe be a bit more thoughtfuland more willing to say you know
, we're going to let those dumbsocial norms that aren't serving
us well, we're going to letthose dumb social norms that
aren't serving us.
Well, we're going to let thosego and we're going to create new
social norms around.
You know it's okay to talk tosomebody at the bus stop.
You know it's okay to makeyourself a bit of a burden on
somebody else from a time totime.
Right, it needs to be give ortake, it needs to be reciprocal,

(35:34):
and one of the things we knowfrom relationship science is
reciprocity, and reciprocalrelationships are what's key.
And so if you're always the oneputting effort in and you're
never getting any anything inreturn, sometimes that means
that you need to reinvest.
Right, because you need to makesure that those relationships
are reciprocal in two ways,cause sometimes I'm not going to

(35:55):
feel like going out andsometimes you're not going to
feel like you know, putting theeffort in, and so both of us are
needed.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
And kind of thinking is a conversation needed?
Like if you're feeling likeyou're giving, giving, giving in
a relationship or inviting,inviting, inviting and then, but
then they don't invite you,then it's like a reflection on
maybe this relationship isn'twhere I think it is kind of in

(36:26):
those spheres of intimacy.
Maybe you think they're in yourinner sphere but actually for
them you're in an outer sphere.
So is it worth a conversationor is that kind of deep
reflection?
Maybe that's when we need toleave psychedelics kind of get a
grounding, look at where we'reat and, um, yeah, it's like do
we, should we be fighting forour friendships or should we

(36:50):
just kind of appreciate them forwhat they are and not try to
make them something they're not?

Speaker 1 (36:58):
I think there's a lot of inner work that needs to
happen in these sort ofsituations as well, and we
probably over um, you know, we,yeah, I, I I think that we
probably underestimate how ourown emotions, our own sense of
self, our own belief of ourrelationships are shaping these

(37:18):
sort of experiences, feel likethey're, you know, might have
very positive, might wish likeheck that they could spend more
time with you, but maybe they'reafraid, maybe they've got an
avoidant attachment style thatcauses them a lot of social

(37:39):
anxiety around.
You know, or you know, one ofthe things that underlies
loneliness the most is what wecall rejection sensitivity.
And it's just that some peopleare very sensitive to the fear
of rejection and it becomes thisfreeze on their life that if
they have to do something andthey're going to get rejected
and I experienced this a littlebit myself of that I hate.

(37:59):
I hate inviting people to somesomething like I hate hosting a
party or an event, not becauseI'm afraid of the effort I would
gladly put an effort to hostbut it's the fear that, oh,
people will say no, and then howwill that make me feel?
And being afraid of your ownemotions is, I think, something
a lot of us experience, if weexperience loneliness or social

(38:21):
isolation, and so I thinksometimes there's inner work
that needs to be done and thensometimes there's conversations
that need to happen about youknow where things at, and I
think it's so difficult to knowwhich of those things is going
to be the best.
I think one thing thathopefully anyone can do is that
you could confide in somebodyelse and talk to them.
So if you have a friend who youdon't feel like is putting in

(38:42):
the effort you know, talk to apartner, talk about the
situation, see what they think,get more things.
Because I think you know at ourcore, sometimes our thinking is
untrustworthy.
We have a whole host ofcognitive biases, we call them,
and our social cognition ishighly biased.
You know, we tend to thinksocial connection is much more
costly than it is.
We tend to underestimate thevalues of social connection.

(39:03):
But who hasn't gone to a partythat they didn't want to go to?
And then at the end of thenight thought, oh boy, I had
such a good time, I'm so glad Iwent right.
We're often wrong.
We call that effectiveforecasting.
We're bad at forecasting howthings will make us feel, and so
getting other people'sperspectives is like a real
valuable thing, right.
It's like you get somebody elseto think about your problem too
, and then at least you've gottwo brains going at it and

(39:26):
you've, you know, once removedone of those brains from the
situation.
So you know, talk to somebody.
It doesn't have to be theperson who you're necessarily
struggling with, but, um,sometimes it needs to be that
person as well, especially ifyou think that you know you need
something more from them thanthey're giving, and maybe they
do want to give it.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
They just don't know they have the permission to, and
in that sort of situation, aconversation can really change
the whole nature of yourrelationship and I love that
kind of invitation to discuss itbecause there's kind of a
stigma about gossiping and Ithink some people are afraid to
talk about their personalexperience of a relationship

(40:05):
with another because they feellike it's gossiping.
So it's kind of allowing peopleknow this isn't gossiping.
So it's kind of allowing peopleknow this isn't gossiping.
This is your personalexperience and, as a friend, I'm
happy to help you through thisand to give you my thoughts and
feelings on this.
If it can serve you, great.
If it.
If it doesn't help you, maybeit will just help you to
identify what actually does feeltrue for you.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, and I think we've all been in gossip where
there's mean-spirited, you know,destructive gossip and then
there's positive, uplifting andreal, authentic.
You know, I think there's adifference.
Actually, one of the majorcoping skills that we use in our
work is called the copeinventory, and it has two.
One is highly associated withreduced loneliness and that's

(40:50):
like emotional confiding inothers is really good for
reducing loneliness, but ventingemotions is really bad and
causes increased loneliness.
So it depends Are you beingconstructive?
Are you working activelytowards a solution?
Are you just venting and justbeing angry?
Sometimes it's.
Sometimes you need to vent.
I'm not saying this is wrong,but sometimes you need to think

(41:11):
about what type of emotionalcoping am I doing?
What type of gossip is this?
And then I think, rememberingthat gossip is also believed to
be an evolved response, thatthere's evolutionary value to
gossip.
It's about informationtransmission and connection and
it's about community, it'sfeeling like the people I know
also know me and also know otherpeople I know.

(41:31):
In fact, I'll just tack on this.
One piece of data from theCanadian Social Connection
Survey was that the more tightyour social network is, so the
more integrated and dense it is,the better sense of belonging
and connection, you have thelower levels of loneliness.
If all your relationships arejust one-on-one relationships,
you get a lot less out of yourrelationships than if you have

(41:53):
just one tight, cohesive groupof friends and they all know
each other.
They all connect.
Now there's certainlycomplexity to it.
You have to manage thoserelationships, but managing
things isn't necessarily bad.
I call that mutual obligation.
Those sorts of environmentscreate more obligation because
if I offend a one-on-onerelationship, that's the end of

(42:14):
it.
That relationship will likelyend.
If I offend somebody in mygroup, we're going to have to
work it out because we've gotall these other people that
we're obliged to and I thinkthat's a really.
It can be a difficult socialprocess to navigate but at the
end of the day it's thehealthiest social progress
because some degree ofaccountability to each other is

(42:34):
actually good for us and eventhough accountability restrains
your autonomy a bit, I thinkthat tension is well worth the
trade off.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I love this so much.
I wonder if there's anything onthe size of those groups, like
the perfect size of group,because I come from, I've got a
group of school friends, I'vegot a group of university
friends, like, yes, I was, likeoften, the instigator, but you
know, if someone is going tohave a wedding and I'm not
actually there, then that groupwill still come together for
both of those.
And I've tried here and I'mstill in the process of trying

(43:08):
to bring a group together.
But the issue is that I haveone-to-one relationships with
everybody and when they cometogether I sense judgment and
they don't see each other in theway that I see them.
I have got an idea of how I'mgonna change that in the next
couple of months, but but yeah,any thoughts on group size would

(43:30):
be very welcome.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
I mean, that's a thing I think lots of people
experience and challenges ofbringing the worlds together.
There's this idea of, like, thesix pillars of friendship, you
know, and this idea is thatreally degree of homophily or
how similar you are reallyshapes your social network, and
nowadays our social networks areso fragmented.

(43:53):
We used to almost everybody mettheir spouse through family and
friends Historically.
Now almost everybody meetstheir spouses through the
Internet.
Nothing's wrong.
I met my partner on theInternet.
Nothing's wrong with Internetfacilitated dating and
relationships.
That's fine, but one of thedisadvantages of it, compared to
this traditional model ofmeeting through friends and

(44:14):
family, is it means it's harderto know when the match is going
to be bringing people together.
And I think we fix that when webring friends together is like,
do these friends, like I havemaybe certain things in common
with each of these friends andthat allows us to be close to
each other, but they might nothave things to each other.
So this is like the challengeof forming a community can be

(44:36):
hard.
There are tricks that you canuse.
You know, creating sharedexperiences is probably one of
the best evidence-based things.
Shared experiences seem to bereally important to group
formation, identity formationand so I think that it's not
insurmountable but it's a commonchallenge that people face.
In terms of how many people dobring together, I don't think we

(44:58):
know with regards to overallsize, but we do know from
research that there is cognitivelimits on how many people you
can really entertain in asetting right, and that when you
start to get too big, the groupside of fracture, they break

(45:20):
off and form smaller groups orit changes the style of the
interaction.
So I as a professor, I'm oftenin front of large style
classrooms.
You know, with anywhere from 20to 150, some classrooms have
like 2000 students in them, youcan't really connect in a
meaningful exchange way in thatsort of setting.
It becomes a I talk, you listentype kind of environment.

(45:41):
So that can happen at partiesas well.
If you have eight to 10 people,you know it can be a one person
talking at a time and everybodylistening.
Well, that doesn't fulfillpeople's needs, because people
we call these self-determinationtheory, but people have three
basic psychological needs.
It's the need to have autonomy,your individuality, your

(46:01):
competence, that's yourcontribution to the group and
both of those things, how uniqueand individual, what your
contribution is, those thingsboth help you belong because it
creates you value for the group.
So if people can't demonstratehow they belong to the group,
they're not going to be meetingtheir own psychological needs
and they're not going to enjoythat social interaction as more
as well.
Your brain can only think aboutso many people in a, you know,

(46:24):
in a room at a time, and so youcan't give people the attention
they need to making sure thatrelation, those psychological
needs are met.
And so four to five peopleseems to be the magic number of
where you still maintain aninteraction and be able to
attach things.
Or you can design your partiesand design your environments in
ways that can manage more groups.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
And so if you're doing a big, board game.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
You know, a big board game, four to five people is
probably the max, but if you'redoing like a soiree, then having
tables where four to fivepeople can gather around each
table will probably meet theneeds there.
So there is some choicearchitecture around how you
design sort of events that takesinto account our social
psychology and and I think forthose friend groups probably you
know, my guess would be thatmany of them this is actually a

(47:09):
good idea for our next survey.
Maybe I'll ask people about howsatisfied they are with their
groups and how large theirgroups are, because it's a good
question.
I don't know exactly what we'llfind, but my guess is that we'd
find something around five tosix people, four to five.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, that magic five , I've definitely I've heard.
I did a, I did an interviewwith a guy named Richard
Bartlett who is brilliant and hetalks about group, group
formation and um and howdifferent group sizes can serve
different purposes and um.
Then Robin Dunbar obviouslytalks about the 12 to 15 and and

(47:44):
in my conversation with Robinhe mentioned that in new group
environments the idea of maybehaving three, three hubs, so
three individual three friends,and then bringing together, say,
four of their friends, so youthen have a group of 15 of you
but there's like those threecentral hubs who they they all

(48:06):
kind of know each other.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
They know each other and they know each other and
then you bring those threegroups together and that could
be a really effective localizedgroup yeah, I, I think I think
that anything you can do tomaximize somebody's sense of
inclusion like, oh, I may notknow everyone here, but I know
two people here that's a lotbetter than knowing one person

(48:27):
there, right, because it givesthem it's that same principle,
like a group that is moredensely interconnected has more
belonging in it.
And so, yeah, I think I think,planning things in ways that
allow people, um, to to havetheir own, because, right, just
like people just need to getover themselves first in a
social encounter, and so if Ican let my stress go of oh, oh,

(48:48):
I don't know any of these people, if I can even just have one
person, it's going to makeinteracting with everyone else
so easier, because that stressis just going to melt away.
And I think that thatconnection is worth noting is
that, you know, the reasonsocial connection has such a
profound impact on our health isbecause loneliness is a
stressful experience.
It triggers your entire stressresponse.
Stressful experience thattriggers your entire stress

(49:10):
response, the hypothalamicpituitary axis, which is how
your body regulates stress, andso the interconnection between
your social connections, stressand your well-being is really a
kind of a powerful triad there,and so resolving stress is
really critical.
One of the worst things forpeople's social connections is
to be really stressed.
What does stressed people do?
You know they're a little angry, they're a little dismissive,

(49:35):
they don't have time right, theyjust want to get things done.
You know stress is kind of atoxic thing and so doing
anything you can to makesomebody feel comfortable, like
there's genuine, it's not just a, you know, it's not just
something you read in the how towin friends and influence
people.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Actually creating genuine comfort is really
important for how peopleregulate their emotions and
regulate their connections toothers, beautiful.
So I know we are coming up totime, but I feel like I've got
so many more like bubbles ofquestions that I could be asking
you.
But I'm wanting to honor yourtime and also honor the time of
listeners here, so maybe we cando a part two sometime, but is

(50:14):
there anything that we haven'tyet got to today that you think?
I cannot leave thisconversation without touching on
this piece, because it's justso important to me right now to
let people know about this.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
I think just the one thing that maybe comes to mind
is this idea of effort and riskof burnout and, just in general,
the striving that is often whenwe raise something to be a
public health priority, peoplethen strive for it, and we've

(50:48):
seen this in the mental healthepidemic more broadly is that
people become obsessed withachieving mental health and that
those people seem to have theworst outcomes.
And I think that this is areally interesting challenge of
what we call inward attentionalfocus that when people are

(51:08):
turned inward, inwardattentional focus, that when
people are turned inward whenthey're self-evaluating, that
creates a really toxic state fortheir social cognitions and
they don't get as much out oftheir social relationships.
They have more fear, they havemore sense that they have to be
well-regulated and controlledrather than being authentic, and
that is what we actually needto do is take a moment to have

(51:29):
more outward attentional focus,and so interventions that we're
seeing have a lot of promise forpeople with loneliness and
isolation are things that askpeople to do random acts of
kindness for other people or toexpress gratitude to other
people or to give support forother people.
When you turn outward, somemagic of turning outward solves

(51:50):
the inward problems, and so youknow, that's something I'm very
thoughtful of as we try to makesocial connection of public
health and a priority onpeople's mind is that we don't
create more anxiety and stressand feeling like, oh, I'm not
doing enough, right, thatshouldn't be the message that
people take home from our work,but rather it should be.

(52:12):
We collectively need to do more,and I think, not to mention
that people who provide supportoften benefit more than people
who receive support, right?
So there's maybe this magicingredient that, by focusing on
other people, instead ofthinking how can I feel included
?
It's how can I make my friendsfeel more included?
Right, and that might be themore magic remedy, and so so

(52:33):
that's something I would suggestis that helping people turn
outward.
You know there's risks there aswell for burnout and that sort
of thing.
You know, if you've always feellike you're the one who has to,
you know organize and makethings happen, that that's good.
That can be hard, but weshouldn't we shouldn't, I guess
stress too much about all this,and so that would be my closing
plea as we kind of percolatelike how does this stuff apply

(52:57):
to my life?

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Thank you, and I do have one last question, which is
what can workplaces do?
Is there a quick win thatworkplaces could do to support
this work, to really help theiremployees, who might only be
coming into the office, say,once a week?
What could they do to help themconnect more?

Speaker 1 (53:22):
I think just making time and space for that
connection to take place andgiving the permission structures
in place for it to happenconnection to take place and
giving the permission structuresin place for it to happen.
I think you know, because youmentioned hybrid, I'll maybe
we've done some work aroundhybrid work kind of environments
, and we actually find hybrid isbetter than completely in
person.
You know, for a lot ofdifferent reasons stress
reduction, being able to manageyour life, having the autonomy

(53:44):
and control but we find thatwhat's worse is the completely
online control.
But we find that what's worseis the completely online, and I
think a lot of workplaces haveturned to this.
We'll do one or two days a weekin person, but everybody picks
their own one or two days, andso then nobody's actually
connecting the workplace becauseyou're the only one there on
Tuesday, right?
And so I think if you're doingthese sort of policies, you need

(54:08):
to really be intentional.
Are my policies actuallycreating meaningful connection
between people or are they justcreating more burdens for my
employees?
And so I think the best thingto do if I were a manager or in
a workplace is work with youremployees to figure out, you
know, when is the pizza partythe right solution.
And when is the pizza party?
Feel like it's too little, toolate, right, and so having those

(54:31):
meaningful relationships withyour employees and the
psychological safety for them tosay listen, I don't think this
is like I don't need anothersocial obligation after working
hours.
You know I need a longer lunchbreak that I'm allowed to take
at the same time as my coworkersare taking their lunch breaks.
So those sorts of solutionsthat are community-based but in
the workplace, I think, reallystand the most chance of being

(54:53):
successful.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
The lunchtime pizza party on a specific day
regularly could be the answerfor workplaces.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
For some of them, I'm sure yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Dr Kivakad, it's been such a pleasure to connect with
you here.
I can't wait to see you inperson in Vancouver in a couple
of weeks.
Thank you from my heart toyours.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Yeah, thank you.
It was great having a chat withyou today and definitely would
come back again.

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#31 - Dr. Kiffer Card - WORLD FIRST NEW Social Connection Guidelines are launched in Canada

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#31 - Dr. Kiffer Card - **WORLD FIRST** NEW Social Connection Guidelines are launched in Canada