December 3, 2024 • 35 mins
Jaqueline Oliveira Cella is an innovative force in employee health and well-being. As the founder of wellBe Consulting, she's at the forefront of advocating for health equity within organizations.
In this episode of "Rediscovering Connection," we delve into the intricacies of balancing professional life with personal health and caregiving responsibilities. Jaqueline shares her insights on:
>> Navigating the Modern Workforce: Strategies to bridge the gap between work commitments and personal well-being.
>> Digital Health Innovations: How technology can support mental and physical health in our increasingly virtual work environments.
>> Empowering Through Health: The impact of employee health programs on workplace culture and productivity.
We also explore mental health as a daily practice, the psychological safety in remote work, and the evolving nature of workplace relationships in the digital age.
If you are a leader looking to foster healthier, more connected teams, this conversation is made for you.
Find Jaqueline Oliveira Cella on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaquelineoc/
Episodes You Might Enjoy:
#32 - Ashley Chang - Reclaiming Sundays: The Power of Executive Assistance for Ambitious Parents
https://youtu.be/Rj4VURRfB1Y?si=QBzXlyPA9LQb1VhN
#12 - Candice Neveu - Navigating Mid-Career Transitions and Virtual Connections
https://youtu.be/iQy1o0S3yeE?si=F0vWeEw5gPDXiR7d
#8 Ame-Lia Tamburrini - How to Manage Difficult Conversations
https://youtu.be/DgytXJS7aNI?si=wBXzvcHAZrcfwuYp
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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley
About Your Host
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's funny because, the proability community has been
asking for those types of, um,hybrid scenarios or virtual way
of working for many years.
And COVID pretty muchaccelerated.
There are companies that were alittle bit more on a.
forefront of knowing how to workvirtually.
(00:22):
When you combine this with thefact that mental health, it
should not be a checkpoint,checkpoint, checkpoint.
Mental health is to be worked asthe same way that you think
about going to a gym, that youthink about breathing, or you
think about eating.
You're keeping your emotions andyour mental well being in check.
(00:45):
It's something that benefits youhello and welcome to
Rediscovering Connection.
I am Shelley Doyle and I'm herethis morning with the beautiful
Jackie Oliveira Sela, originallyfrom Brazil, currently living in
the US of A, and we wereintroduced to each other through
(01:07):
Trish Tonaj's community, shareyour stories.
So I'm just going to give alittle shout out to my friend
Trish over on the east coast ofCanada, Thank you for bringing
us together, Trish.
I'm really excited to welcomeJackie here today.
Something that Jackie said whenwe first connected was this
crazy stat that I just neverheard before.
(01:29):
And you know, when somethinglike this comes into your
consciousness and it sticks withyou, this particular stat was
that 80 percent of full timeworkers have caring
responsibilities outside ofwork.
Now, as a mom, obviously I havecaring responsibilities outside
of work.
And I think about friends andconnections of mine, whether
(01:51):
they're parents or not.
They've got, perhaps some ofthem have got dogs, animals, big
responsibilities that actuallysometimes do take them away from
work with like vet visits andthat sort of thing.
And then other friends of minehave, have elderly parents that
they're taking care of.
So actually, when you thinkabout it, it's obvious.
(02:11):
Stop.
That, that is the case, but Iknow how it feels to be in a big
organization and feel soapologetic when something comes
up in your personal life withyour kids that you have to get
away for.
And, and, and the reality isthis is a reality for the
majority of us at 80%.
Beautiful.
(02:32):
Thanks for having me, Shelley.
So it's true, the majority ofour employees are caregivers,
parents or sandwichedgenerations and so on.
So the reason why I'm here,relates to.
Feeling the pain, like havingempathy for so many employees
(02:52):
who are not, like, so often notable to articulate for
themselves how to, um, advocatefor their health.
And if, I figured that if we canhelp them with data to, um,
articulate for themselves, havethe right talking points, and be
(03:16):
able to share that in a way thatit's not about the individual,
the person, but it's more about,uh, our employees who could be
in that same situation, thenmagic happens.
That's why, for example, anactuary, with a business
(03:36):
background, uh, decided tocreate different business cases
focused on top health riskconcerns, which serves as a self
advocacy tool, but it alsoserves as a tool for employers
who are curious enough tounderstand what best practice
(03:57):
could look like.
And I try to make it as dynamicas possible.
It's a collaboration.
So, um, All the healthcareexperts, the brilliant minds,
the industry leaders that arepart of those different
collaborations, um, they arevolunteering their time.
It's a beautiful way to shareknowledge and impact.
(04:20):
So that's part, that's part ofmy, um, my mission, right?
It's like finding ways to upliftothers.
And pausing, creating themeaningful pause is, uh,
whatever that pause is for you,so you can rethink your journey.
(04:40):
Right, you are, you'll feel likeyou have the luxury because it's
true, it is a luxury to pauseand, uh, and make sure that you
understand who you are and whereyou want to be and who is going
to be there with you, for you.
And just the idea of.
Pausing.
(05:00):
Like when I had my first child,I was back at work within a week
because I had my own agency andI had an opportunity came
through that I couldn't not jumpon.
And actually when your baby's aweek old, they're kind of sleepy
most of the time anyway, so Iwasn't working a lot.
(05:21):
But then when my son was.
It's five, my second, when myson was five months old, I was
back in the office.
And it wasn't till I came toCanada in July, 2021, that I
really took my big pause.
So I've just been working,working, working all the while
with little ones.
And this has been such abeautiful opportunity to find
(05:42):
out my why, but yeah, this isn'ta luxury that's afforded to, to
everyone.
So I'm.
Very, very grateful and feelingblessed for the opportunity to
take that pause.
And what a beautiful idea toencourage people to, whether
that pause is a day or a week ora month, whatever that pause
looks like to help peoplerecalibrate in a world that's so
(06:07):
fast paced.
Absolutely.
I also had a few weeks ofparental leave, Different
cultures take in differentmanners, like, of how to, to
create the pause, how to, tocare for, um, caregivers, for
(06:27):
example, right?
Um, I'm also, I, I am acaregiver.
I have two beautiful children.
I also have elderly parents.
I also love work.
That's like, uh, creatingsolutions, crafting solutions
that can, uh, empower health,wealth, and wellbeing of
(06:49):
employees and that comes whenyou are in a, when you feel
psychologically safe, when youare able to create the trust,
uh, with the ones that you love.
surrounding you.
Why do I mention that?
Because I had that.
And when I joined, uh, on myprior corporate job, I have
(07:11):
worked for very largecorporations.
This corporation we are talkingabout at the time around, uh,
350, 000 employees in, in abouta hundred countries.
And I was empowered by the CHROat the time, Diana Gearson to M.
My boss, who, who is now mymanager, who hired me, who is
(07:34):
now retired.
Barbara was amazing.
Um, on we had a beautiful paidtime off, uh, for parents in the
U.
S.
But it was a mixed bag outsideof the U.
S., so they actually empoweredme and my team to create that,
(07:55):
uh, opportunity for ouremployees by taking a step back
and understanding where the gapswere.
It took us 18 months, country bycountry, business case by
business case, and the lastcountry was Canada.
To be able to create that buy inand take the fear away.
(08:17):
Look at the data.
The data is telling yousomething.
The data is telling you thatwhen you are empowering
caregivers, right, both, uh, ourcolors of the rainbow families
and, uh, of our genders, andwhen you empower them to have
that space with their offspring,you receive back.
(08:40):
Like it's not that your companyis going, uh, to be impacted in
a way that you fear you were so,uh, um, worried about, right?
There was a lot of, a lot ofconcerns about productivity and,
and Presentation and how others,the ones that are left, uh, at
(09:01):
work, how they would be able tocope.
But that was all debunked timeover time.
We proved that that action, wecreated ripple benefits, not
only for the ones taking theleave, but also for the ones
staying, uh, and understandingthat they are in a company that
(09:23):
cared for them.
So that was beautiful.
It's, it was, uh, I think wewere able to have it rolled out
for, uh, 63 countries, 18months, lots of hands on deck
and successful stories.
(09:45):
Time over time, we heard fromemployees, very positive
feedback, engagement, uh, I feelpride.
I feel joy to be part of thiscorporation.
So amazing.
Um, and on that note, when Ithink about, I think we are
(10:06):
chatting before on employeebenefits, on offering, something
and the focus was on caregivers.
The majority of workers arecaregivers and there is more.
One in five is expected to havea child with a disability.
So, when I think about what typeof offerings can, uh, and not
(10:31):
just offerings, but the way thatpeople work could enable those
caregivers to be at their bestselves, could remove roadblocks
so they could be at their bestselves.
And I try to always start withwhat's the understanding the
problem that I'm dealing, likewhat exactly I'm solving for.
(10:52):
So when I start, when like forthe leaves that I just
mentioned, that's one.
Part of the equation, right?
It was to address.
I need flexibility.
I need time off to care and tobond with my child.
I will be back at work with myfull self.
But now I need that pause.
(11:13):
Um, But taking a step back,there is so much more.
So the way, uh, start withunderstanding where the issues
are, like, what are the problemsyou're trying to solve?
Go big, go complex.
Start with the more complexcase, and then you can narrow
down to what the company can actupon.
(11:35):
And usually I think about, um,health, wealth, and well being
in different categories.
They are interconnected, butthey, like, they build a
beautiful picture together, butYou, there are specific actions
that you could be taking.
(11:57):
So for example, when you thinkabout caregivers that happen to
be, uh, responsible for anindividual with a disability,
how many hours those, and I,this is real.
I was on a, uh, Congress not solong ago where I over, on a, I
was on a advocacy session andone of the parents behind me,
(12:22):
um, those are like, one is, uh,a pilot for a very, uh, very
large corporation.
And his spouse was also at work,but basically they are telling
how many hours they're spendingto find the right doctor to
fight, uh, medical claims.
(12:42):
And those hours, it's not justlost.
hours of work.
That's energy.
That's your, like, it's, itdrags you.
So that's, okay, that's aproblem that could be solved if
there are, like, within yourhealthcare plan or anything
within your offerings, you areable to find, uh, I don't like
(13:07):
the name concierge because itseems luxury and that's not what
I'm asking for, but finding away to get access to that
healthcare, uh, to thathealthcare professional who can
help you as opposed to spendhours trying to reach.
Other things that came tosurface is the shock that, uh,
(13:31):
the financial shock.
Other than the emotion, thesocial, the financial shock that
sometimes comes with asituation, an unexpected
situation like having a childwith disability, there are so
many things that are not coveredon your health care plan.
And this is in the U.
S.
and in other countries as well.
(13:52):
So Thank you.
perhaps having a childdisability program or having a
fund for emergency.
It's so much easier than tryingto scramble.
How many times, uh, I have seen,uh, HR, well intended, uh, HR
professionals scrambling totrying to solve for a business
(14:13):
situation.
Now that executive has to, um,To care for a child with, uh,
with disability and has extracosts.
Is there anything that could bedone for, for them in their, in
their behalf?
Um, and the other thing that itwas really relevant to me and we
(14:37):
can, uh, explore that a littlefurther was, I heard time and
resource, big ticket items, butwhen we think about wellbeing,
um, the relationship, how yourmanager is reacting to a
(14:59):
situation where You are, let'ssay it's an emergency, it's
unexpected, how your managerreacts to that situation is a
key indicator of whether or notyou will feel like you can stay
at that company.
And that was like you, uh, oneof the stories that were shared
(15:22):
was exact.
I asked the question, I said,okay, this happened, the, the,
this particular, uh, executivehad a child with down syndrome
and I asked him how the companyreacted.
Right at the time and he vividlyremember this was before all the
new great pay time off and etc.
(15:46):
And he reacted or policies inplace.
He enabled that employee, thatdad, like that parent to
actually take care of yourfamily.
This is, uh, an unusual, like anexpected situation.
You need to be there for them.
That's going to, uh, it's a,it's a moment on your life that
(16:11):
matter.
Um, and he still remembers like15 years, uh, actually more like
almost 20 years later.
He remembers the name of themanager.
He remembers the situation.
So it's about like, how can youtrain, like when you think about
wellbeing, it comes to mind waysof work, right?
(16:33):
How you're interacting with eachother.
Um, and.
Then comes like teachings likeboundless leadership,
compassionate leadership, all ofthem with science back inside
saying, Hey, the future ofleadership needs to contain, um,
empathy needs to contain action.
(16:56):
Right needs to contain beingtransparent and pausing to have
when you are interacting withone another to have your motives
in your intentions.
Yes, your company needs toperform.
That's it.
That's, that's, uh, uh, that's agiven, yes, but you never know
(17:19):
what's across from you.
So maybe that's very closeconversation, right, or open,
not close, that conversationthat enables the employee to
feel comfortable enough to sharesomething that could be the
reason why he is not.
Exactly why they're notperforming as they want to be
(17:42):
and as they usually do becausethey've got stuff on going on at
home.
Something you mentioned Jackie,um, about the, uh, about the
language and how language servesus.
And one of the words that youmentioned that you, you don't
like to use because it seems,um, I guess like luxury is
concierge.
(18:02):
I've just spoken with a womannamed Ashley Chang, who launched
a company called Sundays, whichis designed for caregivers and
her terminology for this is lifeops or life operations.
So she supports families.
you know, with their life ops.
And I was like, that is it.
(18:24):
That's the language, isn't it?
That's, you know, we all havelife ops, whatever stage of
career or level of society we'reworking in.
I love that.
I love that.
It's like being there formoments that matter.
Right, create, uh, being there,and I get it, you still need to
make sure that your actions aresustainable, affordable, uh, on
(18:48):
the long run, um, but there aremoments that matter that you
need to bring the age back intothe, into the equation.
You need to bring the human backinto the equation.
Something else that youmentioned earlier was about
psychological safety.
And I, I'm really intrigued athow this has potentially been
(19:11):
impacted with the huge shift toremote working.
And I know Digital healthinterventions is something that
you've studied.
You've studied all over theplace.
It looks like Harvard businessschool.
You studied in the UK also.
Um, so yeah, I wonder if there'sanything that, that comes up for
you.
And I mentioned thatpsychological safety and working
(19:32):
remotely.
Uh, thank you for that.
So I have just finished.
Like, uh, the one year executiveprogram you were mentioning with
Harvard Medical School.
Digital healthcaretransformation was a big ticket
item.
It's funny because, the proability community has been
(19:53):
asking for those types of, um,hybrid scenarios or virtual way
of working for many years.
And COVID pretty muchaccelerated.
There are companies that were alittle bit more on a.
forefront of knowing how to workvirtually.
When you combine this with thefact that mental health, it
(20:14):
should not be a checkpoint,checkpoint, checkpoint.
Mental health is to be worked asthe same way that you think
about going to a gym, that youthink about breathing, or you
think about eating.
You're keeping your emotions andyour mental well being in check.
It's something that benefitsyou.
(20:36):
So having digital health toolscould help on this journey of,
uh, creating that during the inbetween spaces.
If you happen to be lucky enoughto be with a therapist, You
still want that uh, continuityto what, how you're caring for
your mental well being, fromsetting up your intentions in
(20:59):
the morning, whatever you do to,uh, regulate yourself and paying
attention to your emotionsduring the day.
So, There are so many tools,wearables and et cetera, that
can help you on a journey.
And we are not saying take thehuman out of the equation, quite
the opposite.
Use the tools, to solve forproblems.
(21:23):
Don't create things like, whenpeople come with, what's your AI
strategy?
Pause.
Would someone ask you, what'syour PowerPoint strategy?
What's your Excel strategy?
No.
So we start with what you'retrying to solve and then go
there.
(21:44):
Yeah.
I guess something that's comingup for me is just about
connecting with colleagues.
Thanks.
Remotely, and like some peoplemay not be comfortable with
video.
And I'm part of quite a fewcommunities, and they stipulate
when you, when they start,videos must be on.
(22:07):
That if you want to be part ofthis community, videos must be
on.
We want to see everybody,everybody present.
And like, for me, that's fine.
I'm totally comfortable havingmy video on, but also
understanding that some peoplemight not be.
Has that come up for you?
Oh boy.
This has been on and off for somany years.
Um, here is what I would say tomy direct report.
(22:31):
Think about the impact to haveemotionally when you read a
text, a lot of things can bemissed.
Right on that text or an email,then you add to that a phone
call.
Wow.
Now it gets a little bit more,um, like I can see, I can ask
(22:51):
questions, I can interact.
I feel a conversation, ameaningful dialogue being built.
If you add to that the, the bodyimage, if you add to that, even
if it's a smile, someone cansee, right, your expressions,
um, That's powerful.
(23:12):
Now, so I would tell them if,uh, no, I would share and
suggest try to have some facetime if you're uncomfortable
because you never know.
Some of my employees wereworking up to a very tiny
apartment that you're sharingwith their spouse.
Right?
And they're uncomfortable to, tobe on video all the time.
(23:33):
Um, respect that.
But at the same time, can youmake an effort to at least say
hi so people see you and maybesay a bye?
Like just In certain instances,make sure that people see you,
right?
If not in person, at least likea little bit over the camera.
Um, that's, that would be myrecommendation for them.
(23:57):
Because I know that over time,um, It's, it's just human that
you remember when you have thewhole package.
And I know before we jumped onand started filming, we were
talking a little bit about thenumber of hours that it takes to
make a friend, which is.
Two hundred hours is suggestedto make a good friend and
(24:19):
actually a recent paper by RobinDunbar Which was about the
neurobiology of social distance,which was fantastic but it was
saying the feeling that you canget from having a video call
with a friend is almost as goodas having face to face
(24:40):
interaction with that friend.
If they're already anestablished friend in your life,
you can get the samephysiological benefits from a
video call, but that's verydifferent to a telephone call.
So there is, I can see theargument for there.
So I think the idea ofsandwiching that and giving
people space that you don't needto have your camera on the
whole, But if you can just sayhello and goodbye, then that's
(25:03):
going to serve us all and helpus like see you.
Absolutely.
Um, I, I would just pause us,um, for a minute on the virtual.
He's another stats that I wouldadd to the equation.
Yes.
You, you said something that'scrucial.
(25:24):
You have establishedrelationship.
Right?
So any shape and form that youcan find to build that
relationship.
Sometimes it's like withfriends, they, I only have time
if I happen to be walkingoutside for a minute with the
dog or else, or I'm on a train,they take it and vice versa.
(25:48):
I take it, but I have arelationship established.
If you do not have arelationship established.
It does make like, uh, iffeasible having an in-person
encounter, um, I believe itmakes, it just maybe makes that
bridge faster and that'ssomething for, for me to
(26:09):
research as well.
I will give you another, uh,thought provoking kind of aha
moment in that I had when I wasbuilding the mental fitness at
work.
Collaboration I think it was adelight study where most of the
new, like the, the youngerfolks, I think Gen Z,
(26:32):
millennials, um, they weresharing that hybrid or virtual
for them, it's the same as inperson.
Right?
It's like, it doesn't matter.
They prefer that type ofarrangement in comparison with
Gen Z, Baby Boomers, etc.
(26:55):
Um, when you correlate that,With the other statistic that
tells, uh, that's sharing, like,that's telling us that the
younger generations are the onesshowing symptoms of mental
illness, depression, anxiety,loneliness.
There is something that'smissing between the two.
(27:17):
And I, I say that some of theconnections that I have made
during my time, like there arevirtual was a work in progress,
right?
When I started working, um, itwas in person.
Mostly, even if I had during allmy global roles, there was like
(27:38):
a heavy component of in person,uh, work, like being in the
office and the relationshipsthat I have built 20 years ago,
15 years ago, I stillrelationships.
We are not working at the samespot, but we.
Have built a bond together thathas no, uh, that's, it's not the
(28:02):
same as with the ones I haveonly built over, uh, virtually.
Right.
So those, a lot of the kids thatare like, and again, I think the
balance between the two would bebeautiful, but can you imagine
starting your career only withvirtual?
(28:22):
Imagine.
Yeah.
And I, I attended a CPHRworkshop last week and the
speaker was Emily Fair and shewas talking about the different
generations and the trends basedon the impacts and the
experience that they've gonethrough during those pivotal
moments in their lives.
And she was actually saying thatthe generation already.
(28:43):
After the millennials, they'regoing to be looking for
stability.
They're going to be looking formuch different, like millennials
saying, you know, there'll be ina job for two, three years,
they'll leave.
They won't feel bad at all aboutleaving.
Like the loyalty isn't reallythere.
Whereas the next generationcoming through, they're going to
be much more loyal and wantingto stay.
(29:03):
So it's, it's going to be veryinteresting to see how this does
play out.
Play out.
And, you know, we have all hadthese experiences.
We've all lived through COVID,but we've been at different
levels of maturity.
So how that plays out inpeople's.
And the question is, will therebe a place for them to create
the stability?
We need to train the kids.
(29:25):
Um, I'm afraid that what we,there will be more and more, um,
conglomeration of work asopposed to jobs.
Right.
Meaning working for acorporation versus like, I love
the spirit of how entrepreneursthey are, how like, it's
(29:48):
fascinating.
Portfolio careers that you canhave multiple hats on, um, to
suit your interests, skills,capabilities.
And adjust to the new ways ofworking.
And that's like, um, just a fewweeks ago, uh, there was a.
A very interesting articlepublished by, um, I think it was
(30:11):
the Harvard Business Review withDiana Gerson, it talks about
this.
Um, this new way of working thatemployers need to prepare for
what is, you may not be able toget the talents you want on a
full time.
So what to not have the time orthe, um, the resources.
(30:36):
to, to have that person, uh,full time.
So what to do, how to create anenvironment where that person
who is maybe a, a, a fractionalC suite or a fractional, um,
employee, that's a very, uh,it's a talent that you really
(30:57):
want to keep.
How to make them feelcomfortable, how to make them
feel, I think the word is noteven comfortable, how to make
them feel that they belong.
So if this, we, Keep seeing overand over and over, maybe
starting with GE many years ago,um, this mass, uh, mass layoffs
(31:18):
that Like it deteriorated.
I think I see that and studiesshow that employees trust the
loyalty, the engagement can bethere, right?
Because again, people leavepeople, people don't leave
necessarily companies, uh, Theengagement may be there, but the
(31:40):
loyalty, I think it, the trustwas, has been broken, uh, for a
few years now.
So I, hopefully the newgeneration, even though they
want stability, but they will,Learn how to live on this, uh,
interesting word where like jobsare not going to look like the
(32:00):
jobs we had, like in a few yearsago, a few decades ago.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I attended an AI summitrecently with the lead from
Mindvalley, is it Vishal?
And his prediction was by 2029,we will all.
(32:21):
working a three day week.
Because we're going to havelearned how to use AI to our
advantage to support us.
So actually we will all get beon the same pay, but working a
three day week.
So love this idea.
And maybe the stability of thatis we have a three, you know,
three day.
(32:42):
job and then we all kind of havethese other things going on that
are more like passion projectson the side that we can be a bit
more flexible with, like what adream, let's uh, let's live
that.
It would be a dream if you cancreate sustainability with that
type of arrangement, it would bebeautiful.
Um, we do need to be careful ofwho are we leaving behind, um,
(33:07):
but absolutely it's, it's, uh,it's, I, I, I will wait and see,
and not wait and see, I willcontinue to learn, uh, and see,
because it does, uh, working onyour passion projects, even if
it's outside of your work day,um, it's something that really
(33:31):
boosts your mental fitness,right?
It makes you feel like the senseof purpose goes, like, shines,
uh, bright.
100%.
Jackie, it's been such apleasure to have you here today.
I feel like we could continuetalking all day.
So let's do that again, please.
Um, but for today, I wish you awonderful day ahead.
(33:52):
Is there any final words thatyou want to share anything that
you're like, I can't leave thisconversation without sharing
this?
The thoughts that came to mindis so many times we, we are so
busy in our lives and we refrainfrom taking a step towards
making a meaningful connection.
So number one is approach, like,It's a call for action.
(34:16):
Perhaps today is the day thatyou're going to build a new
meaningful connection withdividing tensions, thinking of
what can you do for that other,For the greater good for to help
that, uh, person across fromyou.
Or it could be an old friendthat you haven't seen in a, in a
while and you happen to comeacross something that's really
interesting that he or she maylike.
(34:39):
There we go.
Right.
Don't wait to build meaningfulconnections and to cultivate the
ones you have because that'sgoing to be, um.
Part of what will determinewhether or not you will leave
your life with happiness, likewith sustainable happiness.
(35:01):
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
And actually this draws to aconversation I was having with a
friend yesterday aboutnetworking and starting
businesses.
And you can, you can keepcollecting new people, new
people, new people, but actuallyat some point you need to stop,
take a breath.
and appreciate the people thatyou have in your life and stop
(35:23):
collecting, collecting,collecting, because we can't
keep hold of too many people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Timing resource.
It's like how we can prioritizenow, but this was beautiful.
Thank you so much for sharingyour journey with me, sharing
this space with me.
And, uh, I hope us all abeautiful rest of our week.
It's funny because, the proability community has been
asking for those types of, um,hybrid scenarios or virtual way
of working for many years.
And COVID pretty muchaccelerated.
There are companies that were alittle bit more on a.
forefront of knowing how to workvirtually.
(00:22):
When you combine this with thefact that mental health, it
should not be a checkpoint,checkpoint, checkpoint.
Mental health is to be worked asthe same way that you think
about going to a gym, that youthink about breathing, or you
think about eating.
You're keeping your emotions andyour mental well being in check.
(00:45):
It's something that benefits youhello and welcome to
Rediscovering Connection.
I am Shelley Doyle and I'm herethis morning with the beautiful
Jackie Oliveira Sela, originallyfrom Brazil, currently living in
the US of A, and we wereintroduced to each other through
(01:07):
Trish Tonaj's community, shareyour stories.
So I'm just going to give alittle shout out to my friend
Trish over on the east coast ofCanada, Thank you for bringing
us together, Trish.
I'm really excited to welcomeJackie here today.
Something that Jackie said whenwe first connected was this
crazy stat that I just neverheard before.
(01:29):
And you know, when somethinglike this comes into your
consciousness and it sticks withyou, this particular stat was
that 80 percent of full timeworkers have caring
responsibilities outside ofwork.
Now, as a mom, obviously I havecaring responsibilities outside
of work.
And I think about friends andconnections of mine, whether
(01:51):
they're parents or not.
They've got, perhaps some ofthem have got dogs, animals, big
responsibilities that actuallysometimes do take them away from
work with like vet visits andthat sort of thing.
And then other friends of minehave, have elderly parents that
they're taking care of.
So actually, when you thinkabout it, it's obvious.
(02:11):
Stop.
That, that is the case, but Iknow how it feels to be in a big
organization and feel soapologetic when something comes
up in your personal life withyour kids that you have to get
away for.
And, and, and the reality isthis is a reality for the
majority of us at 80%.
Beautiful.
(02:32):
Thanks for having me, Shelley.
So it's true, the majority ofour employees are caregivers,
parents or sandwichedgenerations and so on.
So the reason why I'm here,relates to.
Feeling the pain, like havingempathy for so many employees
(02:52):
who are not, like, so often notable to articulate for
themselves how to, um, advocatefor their health.
And if, I figured that if we canhelp them with data to, um,
articulate for themselves, havethe right talking points, and be
(03:16):
able to share that in a way thatit's not about the individual,
the person, but it's more about,uh, our employees who could be
in that same situation, thenmagic happens.
That's why, for example, anactuary, with a business
(03:36):
background, uh, decided tocreate different business cases
focused on top health riskconcerns, which serves as a self
advocacy tool, but it alsoserves as a tool for employers
who are curious enough tounderstand what best practice
(03:57):
could look like.
And I try to make it as dynamicas possible.
It's a collaboration.
So, um, All the healthcareexperts, the brilliant minds,
the industry leaders that arepart of those different
collaborations, um, they arevolunteering their time.
It's a beautiful way to shareknowledge and impact.
(04:20):
So that's part, that's part ofmy, um, my mission, right?
It's like finding ways to upliftothers.
And pausing, creating themeaningful pause is, uh,
whatever that pause is for you,so you can rethink your journey.
(04:40):
Right, you are, you'll feel likeyou have the luxury because it's
true, it is a luxury to pauseand, uh, and make sure that you
understand who you are and whereyou want to be and who is going
to be there with you, for you.
And just the idea of.
Pausing.
(05:00):
Like when I had my first child,I was back at work within a week
because I had my own agency andI had an opportunity came
through that I couldn't not jumpon.
And actually when your baby's aweek old, they're kind of sleepy
most of the time anyway, so Iwasn't working a lot.
(05:21):
But then when my son was.
It's five, my second, when myson was five months old, I was
back in the office.
And it wasn't till I came toCanada in July, 2021, that I
really took my big pause.
So I've just been working,working, working all the while
with little ones.
And this has been such abeautiful opportunity to find
(05:42):
out my why, but yeah, this isn'ta luxury that's afforded to, to
everyone.
So I'm.
Very, very grateful and feelingblessed for the opportunity to
take that pause.
And what a beautiful idea toencourage people to, whether
that pause is a day or a week ora month, whatever that pause
looks like to help peoplerecalibrate in a world that's so
(06:07):
fast paced.
Absolutely.
I also had a few weeks ofparental leave, Different
cultures take in differentmanners, like, of how to, to
create the pause, how to, tocare for, um, caregivers, for
(06:27):
example, right?
Um, I'm also, I, I am acaregiver.
I have two beautiful children.
I also have elderly parents.
I also love work.
That's like, uh, creatingsolutions, crafting solutions
that can, uh, empower health,wealth, and wellbeing of
(06:49):
employees and that comes whenyou are in a, when you feel
psychologically safe, when youare able to create the trust,
uh, with the ones that you love.
surrounding you.
Why do I mention that?
Because I had that.
And when I joined, uh, on myprior corporate job, I have
(07:11):
worked for very largecorporations.
This corporation we are talkingabout at the time around, uh,
350, 000 employees in, in abouta hundred countries.
And I was empowered by the CHROat the time, Diana Gearson to M.
My boss, who, who is now mymanager, who hired me, who is
(07:34):
now retired.
Barbara was amazing.
Um, on we had a beautiful paidtime off, uh, for parents in the
U.
S.
But it was a mixed bag outsideof the U.
S., so they actually empoweredme and my team to create that,
(07:55):
uh, opportunity for ouremployees by taking a step back
and understanding where the gapswere.
It took us 18 months, country bycountry, business case by
business case, and the lastcountry was Canada.
To be able to create that buy inand take the fear away.
(08:17):
Look at the data.
The data is telling yousomething.
The data is telling you thatwhen you are empowering
caregivers, right, both, uh, ourcolors of the rainbow families
and, uh, of our genders, andwhen you empower them to have
that space with their offspring,you receive back.
(08:40):
Like it's not that your companyis going, uh, to be impacted in
a way that you fear you were so,uh, um, worried about, right?
There was a lot of, a lot ofconcerns about productivity and,
and Presentation and how others,the ones that are left, uh, at
(09:01):
work, how they would be able tocope.
But that was all debunked timeover time.
We proved that that action, wecreated ripple benefits, not
only for the ones taking theleave, but also for the ones
staying, uh, and understandingthat they are in a company that
(09:23):
cared for them.
So that was beautiful.
It's, it was, uh, I think wewere able to have it rolled out
for, uh, 63 countries, 18months, lots of hands on deck
and successful stories.
(09:45):
Time over time, we heard fromemployees, very positive
feedback, engagement, uh, I feelpride.
I feel joy to be part of thiscorporation.
So amazing.
Um, and on that note, when Ithink about, I think we are
(10:06):
chatting before on employeebenefits, on offering, something
and the focus was on caregivers.
The majority of workers arecaregivers and there is more.
One in five is expected to havea child with a disability.
So, when I think about what typeof offerings can, uh, and not
(10:31):
just offerings, but the way thatpeople work could enable those
caregivers to be at their bestselves, could remove roadblocks
so they could be at their bestselves.
And I try to always start withwhat's the understanding the
problem that I'm dealing, likewhat exactly I'm solving for.
(10:52):
So when I start, when like forthe leaves that I just
mentioned, that's one.
Part of the equation, right?
It was to address.
I need flexibility.
I need time off to care and tobond with my child.
I will be back at work with myfull self.
But now I need that pause.
(11:13):
Um, But taking a step back,there is so much more.
So the way, uh, start withunderstanding where the issues
are, like, what are the problemsyou're trying to solve?
Go big, go complex.
Start with the more complexcase, and then you can narrow
down to what the company can actupon.
(11:35):
And usually I think about, um,health, wealth, and well being
in different categories.
They are interconnected, butthey, like, they build a
beautiful picture together, butYou, there are specific actions
that you could be taking.
(11:57):
So for example, when you thinkabout caregivers that happen to
be, uh, responsible for anindividual with a disability,
how many hours those, and I,this is real.
I was on a, uh, Congress not solong ago where I over, on a, I
was on a advocacy session andone of the parents behind me,
(12:22):
um, those are like, one is, uh,a pilot for a very, uh, very
large corporation.
And his spouse was also at work,but basically they are telling
how many hours they're spendingto find the right doctor to
fight, uh, medical claims.
(12:42):
And those hours, it's not justlost.
hours of work.
That's energy.
That's your, like, it's, itdrags you.
So that's, okay, that's aproblem that could be solved if
there are, like, within yourhealthcare plan or anything
within your offerings, you areable to find, uh, I don't like
(13:07):
the name concierge because itseems luxury and that's not what
I'm asking for, but finding away to get access to that
healthcare, uh, to thathealthcare professional who can
help you as opposed to spendhours trying to reach.
Other things that came tosurface is the shock that, uh,
(13:31):
the financial shock.
Other than the emotion, thesocial, the financial shock that
sometimes comes with asituation, an unexpected
situation like having a childwith disability, there are so
many things that are not coveredon your health care plan.
And this is in the U.
S.
and in other countries as well.
(13:52):
So Thank you.
perhaps having a childdisability program or having a
fund for emergency.
It's so much easier than tryingto scramble.
How many times, uh, I have seen,uh, HR, well intended, uh, HR
professionals scrambling totrying to solve for a business
(14:13):
situation.
Now that executive has to, um,To care for a child with, uh,
with disability and has extracosts.
Is there anything that could bedone for, for them in their, in
their behalf?
Um, and the other thing that itwas really relevant to me and we
(14:37):
can, uh, explore that a littlefurther was, I heard time and
resource, big ticket items, butwhen we think about wellbeing,
um, the relationship, how yourmanager is reacting to a
(14:59):
situation where You are, let'ssay it's an emergency, it's
unexpected, how your managerreacts to that situation is a
key indicator of whether or notyou will feel like you can stay
at that company.
And that was like you, uh, oneof the stories that were shared
(15:22):
was exact.
I asked the question, I said,okay, this happened, the, the,
this particular, uh, executivehad a child with down syndrome
and I asked him how the companyreacted.
Right at the time and he vividlyremember this was before all the
new great pay time off and etc.
(15:46):
And he reacted or policies inplace.
He enabled that employee, thatdad, like that parent to
actually take care of yourfamily.
This is, uh, an unusual, like anexpected situation.
You need to be there for them.
That's going to, uh, it's a,it's a moment on your life that
(16:11):
matter.
Um, and he still remembers like15 years, uh, actually more like
almost 20 years later.
He remembers the name of themanager.
He remembers the situation.
So it's about like, how can youtrain, like when you think about
wellbeing, it comes to mind waysof work, right?
(16:33):
How you're interacting with eachother.
Um, and.
Then comes like teachings likeboundless leadership,
compassionate leadership, all ofthem with science back inside
saying, Hey, the future ofleadership needs to contain, um,
empathy needs to contain action.
(16:56):
Right needs to contain beingtransparent and pausing to have
when you are interacting withone another to have your motives
in your intentions.
Yes, your company needs toperform.
That's it.
That's, that's, uh, uh, that's agiven, yes, but you never know
(17:19):
what's across from you.
So maybe that's very closeconversation, right, or open,
not close, that conversationthat enables the employee to
feel comfortable enough to sharesomething that could be the
reason why he is not.
Exactly why they're notperforming as they want to be
(17:42):
and as they usually do becausethey've got stuff on going on at
home.
Something you mentioned Jackie,um, about the, uh, about the
language and how language servesus.
And one of the words that youmentioned that you, you don't
like to use because it seems,um, I guess like luxury is
concierge.
(18:02):
I've just spoken with a womannamed Ashley Chang, who launched
a company called Sundays, whichis designed for caregivers and
her terminology for this is lifeops or life operations.
So she supports families.
you know, with their life ops.
And I was like, that is it.
(18:24):
That's the language, isn't it?
That's, you know, we all havelife ops, whatever stage of
career or level of society we'reworking in.
I love that.
I love that.
It's like being there formoments that matter.
Right, create, uh, being there,and I get it, you still need to
make sure that your actions aresustainable, affordable, uh, on
(18:48):
the long run, um, but there aremoments that matter that you
need to bring the age back intothe, into the equation.
You need to bring the human backinto the equation.
Something else that youmentioned earlier was about
psychological safety.
And I, I'm really intrigued athow this has potentially been
(19:11):
impacted with the huge shift toremote working.
And I know Digital healthinterventions is something that
you've studied.
You've studied all over theplace.
It looks like Harvard businessschool.
You studied in the UK also.
Um, so yeah, I wonder if there'sanything that, that comes up for
you.
And I mentioned thatpsychological safety and working
(19:32):
remotely.
Uh, thank you for that.
So I have just finished.
Like, uh, the one year executiveprogram you were mentioning with
Harvard Medical School.
Digital healthcaretransformation was a big ticket
item.
It's funny because, the proability community has been
(19:53):
asking for those types of, um,hybrid scenarios or virtual way
of working for many years.
And COVID pretty muchaccelerated.
There are companies that were alittle bit more on a.
forefront of knowing how to workvirtually.
When you combine this with thefact that mental health, it
(20:14):
should not be a checkpoint,checkpoint, checkpoint.
Mental health is to be worked asthe same way that you think
about going to a gym, that youthink about breathing, or you
think about eating.
You're keeping your emotions andyour mental well being in check.
It's something that benefitsyou.
(20:36):
So having digital health toolscould help on this journey of,
uh, creating that during the inbetween spaces.
If you happen to be lucky enoughto be with a therapist, You
still want that uh, continuityto what, how you're caring for
your mental well being, fromsetting up your intentions in
(20:59):
the morning, whatever you do to,uh, regulate yourself and paying
attention to your emotionsduring the day.
So, There are so many tools,wearables and et cetera, that
can help you on a journey.
And we are not saying take thehuman out of the equation, quite
the opposite.
Use the tools, to solve forproblems.
(21:23):
Don't create things like, whenpeople come with, what's your AI
strategy?
Pause.
Would someone ask you, what'syour PowerPoint strategy?
What's your Excel strategy?
No.
So we start with what you'retrying to solve and then go
there.
(21:44):
Yeah.
I guess something that's comingup for me is just about
connecting with colleagues.
Thanks.
Remotely, and like some peoplemay not be comfortable with
video.
And I'm part of quite a fewcommunities, and they stipulate
when you, when they start,videos must be on.
(22:07):
That if you want to be part ofthis community, videos must be
on.
We want to see everybody,everybody present.
And like, for me, that's fine.
I'm totally comfortable havingmy video on, but also
understanding that some peoplemight not be.
Has that come up for you?
Oh boy.
This has been on and off for somany years.
Um, here is what I would say tomy direct report.
(22:31):
Think about the impact to haveemotionally when you read a
text, a lot of things can bemissed.
Right on that text or an email,then you add to that a phone
call.
Wow.
Now it gets a little bit more,um, like I can see, I can ask
(22:51):
questions, I can interact.
I feel a conversation, ameaningful dialogue being built.
If you add to that the, the bodyimage, if you add to that, even
if it's a smile, someone cansee, right, your expressions,
um, That's powerful.
(23:12):
Now, so I would tell them if,uh, no, I would share and
suggest try to have some facetime if you're uncomfortable
because you never know.
Some of my employees wereworking up to a very tiny
apartment that you're sharingwith their spouse.
Right?
And they're uncomfortable to, tobe on video all the time.
(23:33):
Um, respect that.
But at the same time, can youmake an effort to at least say
hi so people see you and maybesay a bye?
Like just In certain instances,make sure that people see you,
right?
If not in person, at least likea little bit over the camera.
Um, that's, that would be myrecommendation for them.
(23:57):
Because I know that over time,um, It's, it's just human that
you remember when you have thewhole package.
And I know before we jumped onand started filming, we were
talking a little bit about thenumber of hours that it takes to
make a friend, which is.
Two hundred hours is suggestedto make a good friend and
(24:19):
actually a recent paper by RobinDunbar Which was about the
neurobiology of social distance,which was fantastic but it was
saying the feeling that you canget from having a video call
with a friend is almost as goodas having face to face
(24:40):
interaction with that friend.
If they're already anestablished friend in your life,
you can get the samephysiological benefits from a
video call, but that's verydifferent to a telephone call.
So there is, I can see theargument for there.
So I think the idea ofsandwiching that and giving
people space that you don't needto have your camera on the
whole, But if you can just sayhello and goodbye, then that's
(25:03):
going to serve us all and helpus like see you.
Absolutely.
Um, I, I would just pause us,um, for a minute on the virtual.
He's another stats that I wouldadd to the equation.
Yes.
You, you said something that'scrucial.
(25:24):
You have establishedrelationship.
Right?
So any shape and form that youcan find to build that
relationship.
Sometimes it's like withfriends, they, I only have time
if I happen to be walkingoutside for a minute with the
dog or else, or I'm on a train,they take it and vice versa.
(25:48):
I take it, but I have arelationship established.
If you do not have arelationship established.
It does make like, uh, iffeasible having an in-person
encounter, um, I believe itmakes, it just maybe makes that
bridge faster and that'ssomething for, for me to
(26:09):
research as well.
I will give you another, uh,thought provoking kind of aha
moment in that I had when I wasbuilding the mental fitness at
work.
Collaboration I think it was adelight study where most of the
new, like the, the youngerfolks, I think Gen Z,
(26:32):
millennials, um, they weresharing that hybrid or virtual
for them, it's the same as inperson.
Right?
It's like, it doesn't matter.
They prefer that type ofarrangement in comparison with
Gen Z, Baby Boomers, etc.
(26:55):
Um, when you correlate that,With the other statistic that
tells, uh, that's sharing, like,that's telling us that the
younger generations are the onesshowing symptoms of mental
illness, depression, anxiety,loneliness.
There is something that'smissing between the two.
(27:17):
And I, I say that some of theconnections that I have made
during my time, like there arevirtual was a work in progress,
right?
When I started working, um, itwas in person.
Mostly, even if I had during allmy global roles, there was like
(27:38):
a heavy component of in person,uh, work, like being in the
office and the relationshipsthat I have built 20 years ago,
15 years ago, I stillrelationships.
We are not working at the samespot, but we.
Have built a bond together thathas no, uh, that's, it's not the
(28:02):
same as with the ones I haveonly built over, uh, virtually.
Right.
So those, a lot of the kids thatare like, and again, I think the
balance between the two would bebeautiful, but can you imagine
starting your career only withvirtual?
(28:22):
Imagine.
Yeah.
And I, I attended a CPHRworkshop last week and the
speaker was Emily Fair and shewas talking about the different
generations and the trends basedon the impacts and the
experience that they've gonethrough during those pivotal
moments in their lives.
And she was actually saying thatthe generation already.
(28:43):
After the millennials, they'regoing to be looking for
stability.
They're going to be looking formuch different, like millennials
saying, you know, there'll be ina job for two, three years,
they'll leave.
They won't feel bad at all aboutleaving.
Like the loyalty isn't reallythere.
Whereas the next generationcoming through, they're going to
be much more loyal and wantingto stay.
(29:03):
So it's, it's going to be veryinteresting to see how this does
play out.
Play out.
And, you know, we have all hadthese experiences.
We've all lived through COVID,but we've been at different
levels of maturity.
So how that plays out inpeople's.
And the question is, will therebe a place for them to create
the stability?
We need to train the kids.
(29:25):
Um, I'm afraid that what we,there will be more and more, um,
conglomeration of work asopposed to jobs.
Right.
Meaning working for acorporation versus like, I love
the spirit of how entrepreneursthey are, how like, it's
(29:48):
fascinating.
Portfolio careers that you canhave multiple hats on, um, to
suit your interests, skills,capabilities.
And adjust to the new ways ofworking.
And that's like, um, just a fewweeks ago, uh, there was a.
A very interesting articlepublished by, um, I think it was
(30:11):
the Harvard Business Review withDiana Gerson, it talks about
this.
Um, this new way of working thatemployers need to prepare for
what is, you may not be able toget the talents you want on a
full time.
So what to not have the time orthe, um, the resources.
(30:36):
to, to have that person, uh,full time.
So what to do, how to create anenvironment where that person
who is maybe a, a, a fractionalC suite or a fractional, um,
employee, that's a very, uh,it's a talent that you really
(30:57):
want to keep.
How to make them feelcomfortable, how to make them
feel, I think the word is noteven comfortable, how to make
them feel that they belong.
So if this, we, Keep seeing overand over and over, maybe
starting with GE many years ago,um, this mass, uh, mass layoffs
(31:18):
that Like it deteriorated.
I think I see that and studiesshow that employees trust the
loyalty, the engagement can bethere, right?
Because again, people leavepeople, people don't leave
necessarily companies, uh, Theengagement may be there, but the
(31:40):
loyalty, I think it, the trustwas, has been broken, uh, for a
few years now.
So I, hopefully the newgeneration, even though they
want stability, but they will,Learn how to live on this, uh,
interesting word where like jobsare not going to look like the
(32:00):
jobs we had, like in a few yearsago, a few decades ago.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I attended an AI summitrecently with the lead from
Mindvalley, is it Vishal?
And his prediction was by 2029,we will all.
(32:21):
working a three day week.
Because we're going to havelearned how to use AI to our
advantage to support us.
So actually we will all get beon the same pay, but working a
three day week.
So love this idea.
And maybe the stability of thatis we have a three, you know,
three day.
(32:42):
job and then we all kind of havethese other things going on that
are more like passion projectson the side that we can be a bit
more flexible with, like what adream, let's uh, let's live
that.
It would be a dream if you cancreate sustainability with that
type of arrangement, it would bebeautiful.
Um, we do need to be careful ofwho are we leaving behind, um,
(33:07):
but absolutely it's, it's, uh,it's, I, I, I will wait and see,
and not wait and see, I willcontinue to learn, uh, and see,
because it does, uh, working onyour passion projects, even if
it's outside of your work day,um, it's something that really
(33:31):
boosts your mental fitness,right?
It makes you feel like the senseof purpose goes, like, shines,
uh, bright.
100%.
Jackie, it's been such apleasure to have you here today.
I feel like we could continuetalking all day.
So let's do that again, please.
Um, but for today, I wish you awonderful day ahead.
(33:52):
Is there any final words thatyou want to share anything that
you're like, I can't leave thisconversation without sharing
this?
The thoughts that came to mindis so many times we, we are so
busy in our lives and we refrainfrom taking a step towards
making a meaningful connection.
So number one is approach, like,It's a call for action.
(34:16):
Perhaps today is the day thatyou're going to build a new
meaningful connection withdividing tensions, thinking of
what can you do for that other,For the greater good for to help
that, uh, person across fromyou.
Or it could be an old friendthat you haven't seen in a, in a
while and you happen to comeacross something that's really
interesting that he or she maylike.
(34:39):
There we go.
Right.
Don't wait to build meaningfulconnections and to cultivate the
ones you have because that'sgoing to be, um.
Part of what will determinewhether or not you will leave
your life with happiness, likewith sustainable happiness.
(35:01):
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
And actually this draws to aconversation I was having with a
friend yesterday aboutnetworking and starting
businesses.
And you can, you can keepcollecting new people, new
people, new people, but actuallyat some point you need to stop,
take a breath.
and appreciate the people thatyou have in your life and stop
(35:23):
collecting, collecting,collecting, because we can't
keep hold of too many people.
Yes.
Yeah.
Timing resource.
It's like how we can prioritizenow, but this was beautiful.
Thank you so much for sharingyour journey with me, sharing
this space with me.
And, uh, I hope us all abeautiful rest of our week.
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