February 12, 2025 • 40 mins
Welcome to "Rediscovering Connection," where we explore the power of play and improvisation with Brett Macdonald, a former teacher turned improv expert. In this 40-minute journey, we delve into how improv can reshape organizational culture, enhance team collaboration, and foster deep personal connections.
Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction to Brett Macdonald and her work in improv.
05:00 - Brett's journey from teaching to improv facilitation.
10:00 - The impact of expatriate experiences on personal and professional growth.
15:00 - How improv builds instant connections through vulnerability and trust.
20:00 - The role of shared experiences in workplace culture.
25:00 - Personal mission to bring joy into daily life.
30:00 - The nuances of building trust in various work environments.
35:00 - Brett's vision for the future and how she's evolving her offerings.
Key Topics:
- Expatriate Insights on Connection
- Improv for Trust & Camaraderie
- Vulnerability & Honesty in Leadership
- Trust Strategies in Hybrid Work
- Self-Compassion & Personal Joy
Guest Bio:
Brett Macdonald helps community-minded organizations build connection and reignite collaboration on their teams. Through laughter and the power of play, her engaging workshops offer an opportunity to shape – or reshape – essential business skills, camaraderie, and culture. She lives, learns, and plays in Victoria, BC.
Whether you're a leader seeking to nurture a more connected and healthier team, or an individual looking to enrich your personal relationships, this episode is made for you.
Website: brettmacdonald.ca/
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/brett-mac/
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#16 - Karen Grosz - How Collaborative Art Can Connect Colleagues, School Friends & Families https://youtu.be/5P_Ny9jmy9Y?si=VoQOgSCTlMUJXWkZ
#7 - Dr. Robin Dunbar - Building Community in the Modern Workplace
https://youtu.be/OUsKHCNmfPA?si=VPGN4ABbo9hlEj6P
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---
I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The more I learned and performedand went to improv festivals was
(00:03):
just the like deep instantaneousconnection you build with these
peoples because it's such avulnerable art form because you
are bringing yourself to thestage, you don't have a script,
you don't have a characternecessarily, it's just you and
the other people on stage andthere has to be a really deep
level of trust to be able tofeel comfortable up there with
(00:26):
them and know that you're takingcare of and you're taking care
of them and vice versa and soum, even within my group in
Munich, we noticed how themindset shift was, was seeping
over into our workplaces andinto our own personal and
professional lives.
Hello and welcome toRediscovering Connection.
I am Shelley Doyle.
(00:47):
This is my first recording of2025 on a full moon.
And January is, I don't knowabout you, but it always a
little bit tough for me.
Um, I have siblings spreadacross the world and three of us
have birthdays within eight daysof each other.
Um, and I'm never together withthem.
(01:08):
The last time we were alltogether.
was eight years ago.
So it's been a long time and I,I did catch a little bit of the
Mark Zuckerberg interview withJoe Rogan at the weekend and
talking about our imaginedhybrid future and about us kind
of having holograph versions of,of our friends and family
(01:29):
teleporting in to play cardstogether.
I've heard a lot of critique ofhis vision.
People are saying that no one'sasking for this, but as someone
who's.
quite nomadic.
I move around a lot.
My favorite humans aren't alwaysnear me or around me.
Um, so I can't help but be alittle bit excited about this
(01:52):
idea of the future.
Um, Brett McDonald is my guesttoday and Thankfully, she is
near me.
She's here in Victoria, BC.
I was so thrilled to be invitedto an event that Brett hosted
yesterday, doing our goals andvision for 2025 with a bunch of
amazing, um, brilliant, uh,professional and personal
(02:14):
contacts from across Victoria.
I came out with a beautifulvision board.
Um, it was a brilliant way tospend a couple of hours on a
Sunday, sipping tea and eatingsushi and doing our vision
board.
So Brett's here with me today.
She's a former teacher, improvexpert, workshop facilitator,
(02:35):
and really helpingorganizations, um, to bring
their teams together in a morejoyful way, a very different way
than they've probablyexperienced before.
Um, I've been blessed toexperience Brett's work at
multiple big events in Victoria,uh, TEDx, Disrupt HR.
Um, all sorts.
(02:55):
So, uh, brilliant to have youhere today, Brett.
Welcome.
How is your Monday feeling sofar?
How is 2025 feeling for you sofar?
Thank you so much, Shelley.
I'm, I'm really touched that tobe here today.
And I think it's so neat that wespent yesterday together as
well.
You know, 2025 is, I think thebeginning of years are always
It's, it's this like feeling ofyou have, you know, like, Oh,
(03:17):
here I go.
I've got to like restarteverything.
But, um, I'm just sort of, I'mimagining I'm on one of those
little lazy rivers on my, on mylittle inner tube and I'm just
coasting along and being like,look at that cool tree.
Look at that interesting person.
So it's good.
Mindfully flowing into the year.
I love this.
something that we touched on,um, yesterday was about our
(03:39):
international experiences.
So perhaps before we delve intowhat you're doing today, I'd
love to just get a sense of yourjourney to here and how kind of
those expatriate experience havereally shaped your path.
Yeah, yeah.
So I actually have been a bit ofa traveler, my first, since I
(04:00):
was a child, uh, my parentsworked for a non profit
organization in Canada calledCUSO.
And so we actually lived inMozambique for three years when
I was three to six years old.
So this was, this kind ofinternational curiosity was
always ingrained in me.
So after I finished training asa teacher, I ended up getting a
job in Scotland.
(04:20):
And so my first.
Two years of teaching were inScotland and from there I moved
over to Berlin in Germany for acouple years and then down to
Munich where I settled for sevenyears.
So I was away for 11 years andreturned back here in in 2016
which created a pivot moment forme where it was a little bit of
coming home but also You know, Ileft as a student and I came
(04:44):
back as an adult and so Victoriawas a very different city to me.
Also, it was 11 years later.
So things had changed, it wasalso a time where I realized I
didn't want to full time teachanymore.
There was something else thatwas bubbling up inside of me to
explore.
So that's what I then took thattime to teach part time and
(05:05):
start exploring what it was Iwanted to do.
Um, Something else with my life.
What else did I want to trybesides teaching?
I guess that's what I'm tryingto say.
Yeah, I love it.
And something that's just comingup to me and we'll talk about
kind of your improv work.
But, um, I know in myconversation with Dr.
(05:26):
Robin Dunbar a year and a halfago, he just mentioned about
When you have something incommon with someone, like if you
visited the same place or ifyou've got a person in common,
um, uh, there's something calleddyadic closure and it just helps
to ignite that spark.
And not long after we met and weconnected on LinkedIn, I noticed
(05:47):
that you were connected with aformer colleague of mine called
Alex Menems, who has shiftedfrom corporate into improv and
it was like almost even thoughwe didn't know each other very
well just seeing thatinternational connection with
someone that I knew quite wellfrom the UK definitely just
helped to, uh, form thatconnectedness between us.
(06:08):
Um, Yeah, so let's talk aboutimprov and like how this has
like really shifted things foryou and how, how this really
helps you to bring joy andconnection into the lives of
whoever participates in in yoursessions.
Yeah, so I'll say my briefly myhistory with improv is I grew up
(06:29):
as a theater kid I was on stagedoing musicals I actually
studied theater beforeeducation, and part of it was an
improv course.
And.
I left theater aside then andmoved on to education and
teaching, but when I was livingin Berlin, I rediscovered improv
there and took an English coursein improv and it had a
performance element.
(06:49):
And that was where I was like,this, oh, this feels good.
And so it led into me cofounding a group in Munich and
that went on.
They're still going, uh, thoughmany of us have moved on.
And what I noticed the more Ilearned and performed and went
to improv festivals was just thelike deep instantaneous
(07:09):
connection you build with thesepeoples because it's such a, it
can't.
It can be a very sort ofvulnerable art form because you
are bringing yourself to thestage, you don't have a script,
you don't have a characternecessarily, it's just you and
the other people on stage andthere has to be a really deep
level of trust to be able tofeel comfortable up there with
(07:32):
them and know that you're takingcare of and you're taking care
of them and vice versa and soum, We, even within my group in
Munich, we noticed how themindset shift was, was seeping
over into our workplaces andinto our own personal and
professional lives.
So when I moved back to Canada,I, that was where the idea kind
of started of like, how do I, Ijust want to speak.
(07:53):
Spread this and share this withother people without the
performance element.
You don't need to get on stageand perform at all.
I just want people to experiencethat joy and that connection and
that like, slight vulnerabilitythat we can all have together to
deepen that connection.
Even if you're not aiming forthe comedy or performing, there
is still such a sense ofjoyousness within all improv
(08:16):
games, I find, because you'reletting go, you're stretching
your comfort zone, and you'rehaving this shared experience
of, like, nerves, which justleads into bubbles of laughter.
Yes.
So much yes to that.
There's two, two things thatreally come up for me there, the
shared experience.
And I think this is so importantand whether it's, I don't know
(08:40):
if any of your delivery isactually virtual, so maybe we
can touch on that, but the ideaof shared experiences and
especially when.
Uh, when people are going backto their offices, like maybe one
or two days a week, and whenwe're there, they're half of
their colleagues aren't therebecause they're working from
home.
And it's like the importance ofcreating these shared
experiences every so often tojust help bring our teams
(09:05):
together.
And then have some, have amemory, have like a core memory
to think back to how silly youallowed yourself to be in the
company of your colleagues.
And then maybe you'll be in areally serious meeting, but
you've still got that knowingthat colleague has a, like a
silly side to them.
And you just see a differentside that, yeah, is a bit more,
(09:29):
um, a bit different to justhaving a drink down the pub.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
One of my recent clients rightbefore Christmas, he said it
perfectly.
It was a, uh, a governmentaladjacent organization and, and
it was all of their stafftogether in the room and we
worked together for two hours.
And at the end of it, he said hewas, you know, he was really
(09:50):
impressed with, with just howengaged everybody was.
But one comment really stood outto me, which was, You know, we
laugh together.
Like, it's not like we don'tlaugh, but he said, I haven't
seen us laugh like that togetherin, I don't know how long.
And I think that's it too.
It's, we all have a good laughevery now and again, but to have
those, like, uproarious, almostlike tear filled laughters where
(10:14):
people are like, my cheeks hurtfrom laughing.
And it's.
Only because they're together,they're not watching something
together, they're engaging in ittogether, and yeah, to that
shared experience, I've beendoing some research into
laughter and the benefits of it,and of course there's all the
known benefits of your heartrate and uplifting things and
everything, but there's alsoevidence now of This shared
(10:37):
laughter deepening connectionsnot shared as in watching
something together, but actuallysharing it together and that
that itself builds trust amongstpeople.
And I just think that's sospecial.
And I can't wait to learn moreabout that too.
I agree.
I think it's beautiful.
Love that so much.
Um, one thing that you mentionedyesterday was, uh, your, your
(11:00):
personal mission to bring joyinto your own daily life.
And I think that was sointeresting.
Just knowing your work is reallyhelping to bring joy into the
lives of your clients andparticipants.
And.
Uh, we spoke also about the ideathat we teach what we need to
(11:20):
learn.
So I wonder if there's justanything coming up for you there
that why you're feeling thiscalling to bring joy to others
and like how important it is tosee yourself as, as, as an
other, as an important person inyour life that you also want to
help share laughter with others.
(11:41):
Yeah, definitely.
I think two things.
One, one is something that I'vebeen working on for a few years
and researching and doing workwith is the idea of self
compassion.
and being aware of my own needsand being okay with taking care
of myself while also taking careof others.
And so I think what I noticed,having really gone full bore
(12:02):
into building my business overthe last year and a half is I
think I forgot to bring joy tomyself.
Like I bring, I love doing whatI do and coming into
organizations and helping otherpeople.
And then I started lookingaround my house and being like,
there's all these puzzles Ihaven't done.
And my guitar, I haven't beenplaying and that crochet project
and that all these differentthings.
(12:22):
And so I thought this year, andI noticed that I just noticed
that in myself that I wasmissing those like little sparks
of excitement that I get in myworkshops.
And I see other people get, andI thought, what about.
I need to feel that too, becauseif I feel that, that's just
going to benefit my workshopparticipants even more as well.
Um, and it's a journey.
We talked about that yesterday,that we are, I'm doing it
(12:46):
because I love helping otherpeople come to these
realizations, but I also loveComing to these realizations
myself and learning as I go too,so, yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent, um,yeah.
I'm there with you on thisjourney of knowing that we teach
what we need to learn.
And I watch back, um, just acouple of my interviews over
(13:08):
the, over the break.
And one of them I was sayinglike, hand on heart, like I feel
connected and supported where Iam right now.
And it's like, on that day thatI did that recording, I felt
that way.
And that's not to say that twoweeks later I feel exactly the
same way because maybe I haven'tbeen connecting outside of my
bubble as much as I want tobecause I have very demanding
(13:32):
children and I, I just don'thave the capacity when they're
here full time to actuallyconnect with the people that I
really want to and have thosenutritious conversations that
you can like.
Go over an hour if you feelcompelled to because you've got
the spaciousness.
So I know I need to do more ofthe work in my own life.
And I've got, like I said, I'vegot amazing contacts all around
(13:54):
the world, but it's reallycarving out the time and the
intention to reconnect so thatwe do feel connected.
And some of the times I'llreconnect and I'll have these
like.
big realizations.
And sometimes it can take a lotof energy to reconnect with
people.
And then you have like anamazing, um, hour together and
(14:15):
you're like, wow, I really feellike our relationship is like
back on track.
And then again, another sixmonths go by and you're like,
Damn it.
I like, I did the work to get usback together.
And then the follow up wasn'tthere.
So it's about how do we getregularity back into those
connections, whether that's likeonce a year or once a quarter or
(14:37):
whatever, and sensing that.
So that's part of my work on myown personal journey to feel
connected to my people aroundthe world.
So a little bit of an insightinto me.
Um, So we spoke about movingbefore.
So you've lived in Scotland andin Germany, and I wonder how
your, how your feeling ofconnectedness was in these
(14:59):
places around the world.
And I dare say like theenvironments, like if you're
teaching in Scotland, you'relike moving into like a whole
community of people.
So you, you, you kind of havethose people naturally around
you.
So I wonder how your feelings ofconnection was in these
different places around theworld.
Yeah.
Oh, that's a great question.
And it's just made me come to arealization that I had two very
(15:23):
different experiences inScotland versus in Germany.
Um, in Scotland, I moved therewith one of my good friends from
here.
We both graduated.
She's a McLeod.
I'm a McDonald.
We were like, we're going toScotland to conquer the max.
And, uh, We moved to a verysmall town in the Scottish
borders, and so there was noother international people
there.
We, you know, we even, I have anarticle still of us on the front
(15:46):
of the local newspaper with ourCanadian flag, you know, we
really stood out.
And we were lucky we had eachother, and we loved road
tripping all over Scotland, allover the UK, really.
Um, but it took us a while tobreak into the local community.
Like any small town, you need aninn.
And we finally got an inn.
And, uh, even though we wereboth working in schools, that
(16:06):
was one way in, but it was theinn to the local, you know, the
rugby people, the, the localtheatre people.
And we were only there for twoyears, but we made, you know, I
still have close friends that Icatch up with every time I go
back.
And so that was one community ofreally breaking into the local.
And once I moved to Germany, Iwas working in international.
So I was joining into schoolsthat were full of expats.
(16:29):
And so you had thisinstantaneous group of like 10
to 20, however many friends youwant.
Um, and you were working veryintensely within the schools as
well.
And it wasn't so much aboutgetting into the local
community.
Partly because of the languagebarrier as well.
So that made it tricky, but Ithink in terms of connections
again I think there is somethingto it was, you know, kind of the
(16:51):
formative years of my life I wasmy into my 20s into my 30s while
I lived there and I was reallycoming into myself and learning
who I was as a person and who Iwanted around me and The expat
community is just so special,um, I think in many places.
I think in Asia, it's even moreunique.
It's much more intense there.
But even in Europe, to be withall these international people
(17:14):
who just want to know otherinternational people, you
instantaneously have such neatbonds because you're so,
everyone's so curious about eachother and curious about how we
It's just such work and what ourcultural differences are and and
similarities and you know,whether it was the theater
groups I joined or the schools Iwas a part of, um, and then of
course I used a lot of likemeetup.
(17:35):
com was really big back then andthere was a thing called
internations.
I didn't know if you know thatit was a professional
international one and yeah.
Oh, in fact, I think you're kindof active on the internations
here, aren't you?
A little bit.
A little bit.
I've been so curious because itwas such a big part of a couple
of years in Munich for me, but Ijust feel.
It would be different.
So to wrap it up, I'll say whenI moved back to Canada, it was a
(17:56):
real seeking of whether it wasinternational people or people
who had lived internationally.
Like those were the people Iwanted to connect with here
because I didn't want to losethat huge part of my life, that
international mindset andexperience.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And the repatriation I hearagain and again is almost
(18:20):
harder.
Then the expatriate adventurebecause you come back and maybe
your old friends and connectionslike they're expecting the old
version of you to return andyou're like, Oh, hey guys.
Like, Oh no, this is the new me.
Um, and, uh, maybe yourwavelengths are somewhat
(18:40):
different and the expectation offalling back into old folds
maybe doesn't feel as natural asyou anticipated that it might.
I wonder if you've got any.
Any, anything that you want toshare on that, that repatriation
part of your journey?
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say that, uh, reverseculture shock is a real thing.
(19:01):
Um, like I said, I was gone for11 years, and I would, Germany
is a very different type ofcult.
Even Scotland's a lot differentthan living in Canada.
I mean, you would know UK toCanada differences too, of
course.
Um, There were friends that Ihad left from university here
who, you know, have never leftand they've gotten married and
had kids and, and my partner andI have chosen not to have kids.
(19:25):
So I came back, you know, justthe two of us.
And I think One bonus I have isthat my partner is from Germany.
I met him there.
He's very international as well,and he was super excited to move
to Canada.
And so, I had this person in my,in my house, literally, who I
could talk to about the trips wedid and the travels we did.
And we could analyze the waythat Canadians do things and
(19:46):
laugh about moments whereeveryone's apologizing over the
most, you know, where we arestanding in line at the grocery
store.
And we just thought it washilarious.
You know, I think I was reallylucky in that way.
But, but I found it hard.
There were things that I missedfrom Germany.
And I think, of course, thebiggest thing I missed were my
friends.
All my, all my close friendsstill, most of my close friends
(20:07):
live in Europe or they've leftEurope and gone back to
Australia or wherever.
And so there was this reallonging, too, of like, how am I
possibly going to makeTranscribed new friends to that
level again.
Is that even possible?
And am I okay with that?
And, um, yeah.
And then I think just gettingused to how things are done
here.
It's, it's, it's a lot gentlerand kind of easygoing and, you
(20:31):
know, Germans will say it likeit is.
And, and, uh, there's a reason Ileft Germany though, too.
I was ready to come back tofriendly Kind of surface level
bubbly people too.
I, I needed to get back intothat for my own mental health as
well.
So it was a, it's a mixed bag.
It's a hard question to answerin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's, uh, the wordthat's coming to mind is banter.
(20:54):
Like in the UK, like you havebanter, like you take the mickey
out of each other.
And it, it feels like thatdoesn't really happen here.
Like it feels like it could betaken in the wrong way.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I think that's part of like,I miss, I love going back to
Scotland and the UK because Imiss things like real banter
and, and just, I feel like whenI was living in Scotland, it
(21:17):
was, I always say it was a goodease into Germany because
already in Scotland, people weredefinitely more.
up front with what they weresaying and they just say things
like it is and, and, but withthis real like sense of humor
and stuff.
And then you get to Germany andthey've lost the humor aspect,
mostly.
Um, I just said that of course,jokingly, but, uh, but it's
very, you know, straightforwardthere.
(21:38):
And so it was a nice ease.
So I definitely miss that.
I will say from Germany toCanada, Canada, there's a lot
more banter here.
Germans don't really banter.
It's not really, in myexperience, it's not a, my, my
American friend and I would talkabout that in Germany, how we
miss that just like boom, boom,boom, that funny banter.
Um, so you definitely get moreof it here, but I totally see
what you mean that it's nothingcompared to, to the UK.
(22:02):
What I love about the Germanlanguage is some of the phrases.
Um, my favorite German phrase isKopfkino.
Have you heard of this one?
I can translate it to whatever.
Yeah, so cinema in your mind.
So if you're just going off on atangent and someone would be
like, you're having a cop kinomoment right now.
Like this is not happeninganywhere else except for your
(22:25):
mind.
Like, oh my gosh, it's just notsomething that we necessarily
would.
So, um, my former boss wasGerman.
Um, so I had four years ofworking side by side, um, and
learning.
So learning some of thesephrases to just throw into our
conversations, which alwaysbrought him a little bit of joy
(22:46):
that I would take the effort tolearn a few bits and pieces in
German.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we mentioned about you havingconnections all around the world
and I know about your in persondelivery.
Do you, do you do much virtualand do you, do you enjoy doing
like your work in a virtualenvironment?
(23:07):
How is that received?
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
You know, it really Picked upover the pandemic.
I was still building my businessat that point, and there's a
network out there called theApplied Improv Network, which is
all people like me who are usingimprov and applying it in
different situations, medicalfields, politics, you know, all
(23:28):
sorts of industries.
They all hopped online at thebeginning of the pandemic and
we're like, how do we do thisvirtual?
So I got thrown right into itthere.
And so, yeah, I did a fairamount of virtual during the
pandemic.
Um, I worked with libraryfederations around BC actually,
cause they were learning how toput their programming online and
how to use zoom.
(23:48):
And so I would do workshops forthem on some of the basic tools
of zoom.
Uh, and then also.
Some games and exercises theycould use.
And we talked a lot aboutconnection before content.
That was kind of the biggesttheme was it's not just about
getting people like a normalspace, but getting people in the
zoom room, we need to get themconnected because you're all
sitting in your own littlebubbles.
(24:09):
Um, so that was great.
So I think that's still, when Ido do virtual ones, which I do
do every now and again, it's.
I really want, I use thebreakout rooms because I want
people to connect and we stilldo it through improv games and,
and getting to know each otherkind of prompt questions and
such, um, because I want toprove that it is possible.
I know there's people who aredoing it tremendously better
(24:33):
than I am, but I want to showthat even just the simplest way.
You can build that connectionwithin there.
Totally.
Totally.
And I, I did do a one to onesession with Alex Menon.
Um, a couple of years ago now.
And it was what I found reallyinteresting was the invitation
(24:54):
and ability to play with ouremotions.
in like a safe setting so he waslike giving me a present like a
pretend present through thescreen and then saying like when
you receive this you're going tobe really unhappy like you're
going to be real it's not goingto be what you wanted at all and
then it's like playing with likemy like Maybe I'm gonna hide the
(25:18):
unhappiness, but still, like,feel it.
And that's it.
You, you, you do, you feel theemotions.
So that, I, I found, I'm like, Iwant to find some way to do kind
of authentic improv.
And it was like, well, this kindof is because we're
authentically feeling thefeelings.
Even though it's a curated.
(25:41):
fictional scenario that's beingpresented to us.
So I found that so intriguing.
So I want to do some more improvfor sure, for sure.
And I want to say, can I jump inand say one thing?
Cause I want to clarify, cause Ilove what you said about doing
that.
Now I've forgotten the word youuse, but that sort of authentic
improv.
And this is something I reallytry to explain to people right
(26:02):
off the bat.
Because I think a lot of people,especially North Americans, only
know improv as, like, the showWhose Line Is It Anyway.
Yes.
Which is all, I mean, those guysare unbelievable, they're so
talented, they've been doing itfor decades, and, and, uh It's a
very curated, performative,comedy focused format.
(26:24):
And so I think a lot of peoplethink of improv as improv
comedy, and many people call itimprov comedy, and that it's all
about the laugh and the joke andso on.
And I wanna, I always try to letpeople know there's a whole
other side of improv, whichstill has a layer of comedy,
because it's, all, you know,discovered on the spot and
spontaneous.
So you're gonna have comedy init, but it is genre focused.
(26:47):
It is truthful.
It can make you cry.
It can make you feel scared.
It can, it can make you feel allthe other emotions beyond just a
laugh.
And what it's really about ishitting on, relatability where
you're watching something andyou're like that, wow.
I know exactly what that feelslike and what, whatever emotion
(27:09):
it brings up.
And that's the world of improvthat I love to live in.
That's, I call it narrativeimprov, that's not the technical
name, but it's more about thestories and the relationships
and the people that are in thereand what's happening.
And the exercises to get to thatplace are similar as to the
comedy place, but there's adifferent intention there where
(27:29):
it's a real, it's a human sense.
One of my favorite tools whenI'm performing improv is if I
don't know what to say, I juststate what I'm feeling in that
moment, like I might actuallyjust say, I don't know what to
say.
And that's a gift to my partnerbecause they're going to be
like, one, I know Brett, theimproviser is feeling lost.
And two, I'm going to use thatas my gift for my next line.
(27:51):
So yeah, I love what you justsaid.
Um, cause that is a huge part ofimprov.
And I think yeah.
Many, if not most people don'tunderstand that or know that
yet.
And that's bringing up somethingquite profound for me.
One of my earliest podcastinterviews is with a brilliant
coach called Kirsten Barfoot.
(28:12):
And she does, in her coachingwork, when she was starting out,
she had an experience with aclient and She didn't know what
to say after her client hadrevealed something and she spoke
that she just said, I don't knowwhat to say.
And that honesty in her sayingthat created an aha moment for
(28:39):
her client.
So it's like us being truthful.
We don't know what to say inthis moment or how I'm feeling
in this moment helps others havebreakthroughs.
Yeah, yeah, it takes away that,that need to be forced to say
something or like scramble forsomething, whether it's a moment
(29:01):
of silence or it's a moment of,I don't know what to say.
And I, and I feel like thispodcast journey is helping with
that because we give each othergrace.
Like if we don't know what tosay, you know, I might just
pause and edit something outlater.
But in the boardroom where Icome from a very corporate
environment, if I didn't knowwhat to say, I probably would
(29:23):
have just continued talking.
So it's like, I'm, I've learnedthis over the last few years and
what a gift that is.
Wow, so thank you for that huge,huge reminder and I really hope
that helps other people torealise that when they don't
know what to say, it's okay tosay that.
And we spoke a bit about trustbefore and I think that, that is
(29:49):
a huge trust builder.
To be honest, um, and trust issomething that's coming up in my
research again and again, um,and I'm, at the moment my, my
research is all about hybrid,hybrid working and in connection
and like building trust when itis mainly through a screen and
how challenging that can be andhow we do need some, you know,
(30:13):
face to face interaction to, tobuild that trust and how
different organizations areplaying around with that.
I wonder if there's anythingelse on trust that we could dig
into.
I think what you just said, Ireally liked was the different
ways of building trust.
I imagine it's scary to be in aleadership role and see a
breakdown of trust and be like,what do I do?
(30:33):
And easily just pick those go tokind of activities.
Um, but to really sit down andfind out like what's what's the
reason what's happening here?
What are other ways that we cantry and rebuild trust in here?
And, and I definitely don'tthink I'm the answer, but I am a
clue.
I think improv is a clue.
is a seed that can be used aspart of that rebuilding as well.
(30:57):
Um, so I think, yeah, lookingfor different ways of building
trust.
And also people build trustthemselves in different ways as
well, too.
And I think that when we'rethinking about inclusivity in
workplaces, it's also thinkingabout learning styles or Or, um,
of course there's the introvert,extrovert things to keep in mind
(31:19):
as well, but this idea thatpeople build trust in different
ways and trust looks differentfor everybody at the same time
too.
So there's not a one size fitsall for, and now we all have
trust.
It's like, no, maybe it's a bitof a spectrum.
I don't know.
Like, I think it is when itcomes to connections.
Like I have this much trust withthis person and maybe a little
bit less trust with this one.
I'm still building it.
(31:39):
And, and I think it's okay to.
To again, like, speak the truthon that.
We're building trust indifferent ways here, and yeah,
those are my, my ramblingthoughts on trust.
And like, organizations thathave gone through big change
programs that every organizationdoes, uh, when that trust has
eroded, like, having anicebreaker.
(32:02):
Like the improv just to maybethe tension has just been
building and building and it'slike you just need to do
something for you all to justbreak out of that and help to
reset and I know when I wasliving at the eco village for
four months.
Um, it was, um.
It, it got quite overwhelmingsometimes, particularly in the
(32:24):
winter when we were inside andwe'd be seeing, you know, these
other 15 humans three times aday, it was like, you know, can
be too much.
And then on a Friday, we wouldhave these heart circles and
we'd sit around and we, we wouldbe brutally just honest about
whatever's coming up for us.
And it was all about don'tpremeditate, just allow whatever
wants to be said to be said.
(32:45):
And you go around three timesand it always felt like on the
Saturday after being in that.
kind of trusted circleenvironment, there was a
lightness that you then had withthe other community members that
we like, we know we see eachother in a different way now.
(33:05):
So it's almost like breakingthat.
breaking that boundary, doingsomething that's going to get
you in a different frame.
And that can really help.
Monday morning, you come intothe office and you're not going
to keep doing improv every day,or maybe some of them will, but,
but, but it's, it's kind ofchanged the dynamic.
It's changed the tone.
Yeah.
(33:25):
It's given some new lenses too.
I think it's, it's, it's justshifted that mindset.
Cause we all get.
You know, I think some of usmore than others get set on that
fixed mindset.
And so it's, it's breaking that,like you said, or shifting it,
just cracking it a little bitand being like, Hey, have you
thought of it this way?
Have you looked at it from thisangle and bringing that
curiosity into it too?
(33:47):
So what's next?
What's next?
What's next in your world?
Like what's, what's in your, inyour vision board?
Like what's the most excitingthing that you're working on
that you're like, this is reallygoing to shift things for me.
It's going to shift things forthe people that I serve.
Good question.
I think part of what's drivingme this year is, uh, I'm
(34:09):
continuing to evolve what it isI'm offering for my clients and
how it is I'm serving the peoplethat I'm working with.
And one thing for me is now toreally look back at my full time
business in the past year and ahalf is what are people looking
for?
Like, what is it that theseorganizations and these leaders
are seeking and like cravingand, and what's coming out of
(34:30):
the work I'm doing with them andbeing able to shift that more
and bring that more into thelight.
So I think really focusing on,um, the wonderful people that
I've worked with already andlearning from them.
What's out there and maybefinding new ways of helping them
or finding different waysbecause I think improv can be
used in so many different placesand situations.
(34:50):
And every time there's a newopportunity that comes, you
know, have you ever like thevisioning thing yesterday?
I, you know, I didn't bring anyimprov into that really, but
bringing other areas of mytraining and my experience in
and I guess just finding Ialways love evolving and
learning and trying new things.
And so I think part of it now isa focusing, though, on the
wonderful people I've workedwith so far and taking that
(35:12):
knowledge and learning andmoving it out back to them or
into to new people as well.
And, you know, I've been part ofsome networking groups locally
now for, it's been a full year,and so I feel like, okay, I've
settled in, it's kind of likewhen you move to a new country,
I feel like the first yearyou're like, what's, what is
this?
Oh, that's, oh, and you'realways just like a step, a step
(35:34):
behind everything, somethingcool happens, and you make, make
a note for next year, and it'syear two where you kind of
settle in and you really find,you Your home and your space and
your people and I think that'skind of the pro this the stage
I'm in in my business with withit as a full time business now,
um, is that like, okay, I know,I know what's coming.
(35:55):
How am I really going to wearthe bits I'm going to thrive in
and really put my focus and myenergy into as well.
And we mentioned about somevirtual improv groups but for
those.
Uh, listeners in Victoria, arethere any groups that you've
joined that you've really feltat home in and you're like,
these are going to, you know,continue to be a fixture in my
(36:17):
weekly or monthly diary thatother people might want to check
out?
Yeah.
I mean, I think for myself, italways, and I think for anybody,
it really comes down to thepeople in the room and, and how
the space is kind of held and,and run if it's, if it's like a
free form one or if there is ateacher.
So that.
That's been a journey for me asI rediscover the communities in,
(36:40):
in Victoria, but I will say, um,I always recommend Paper Street
Theatre.
I really love the improv they dobecause it is, as Dave Morris,
their, their, um, founder says,it's improv that feels like
theatre.
And so it's all genre basedtheatre, and he does really
interesting, unique, and it's,really, And, uh, with all those
range of authentic emotions likewe talked about.
(37:02):
So definitely they do shows andworkshops as well.
I always think that's a greatplace to start, um, but it is
not a comedy focused improv.
So if you want to do comedyfocused improv, then I would
highly recommend my friend,Alexander Foreman, who does.
Okay, dope.
They do comedy and improv andAlex runs a series of workshops,
even for kids now too.
And uh, so if you're looking abit more, if you enjoy the
(37:23):
comedy aspect of it, she teachesa style that is much more comedy
focused and they have showsevery week.
They have numerous showshappening at the mint downtown.
So it's, uh, yeah, there was adifferent thing.
Those are my two that I'drecommend.
And are you fully focused onkind of the corporate space or
do you do, do you do any stufffor, for general kind of
(37:44):
consumers or children yourself?
Oh yeah, great question.
So my kind of, my side, my sidehustle that I love to do out of
passion is, is actually Improvfor seniors.
So I do it at various seniorcenters in town.
Um, some of them are all ages,some are more senior focused
like Silver Threads andsometimes I do Monterey Rec in
Oak Bay.
Um, I also work in some, uh,retirement communities and do
(38:05):
workshops for them and a memorycafe which works with people
living with memory loss.
So there is that kind ofcommunity side.
So it's a bit more focused onseniors in that sense.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And I, I imagine those eventswould be really satisfying.
Oh, they're incredible.
I mean, it's generally women whocome, which is interesting.
(38:27):
You know, you imagine a roomfull of women who are 60, 70,
80, 90 even, and they are just,they're going back to their
childhood.
They are just, everything'scoming up and they have so much
experience and wisdom to shareand they're so reflective and
they love this like breaking outof their shell and, and uh,
yeah, it's such a joy.
I love that space as well.
So.
(38:48):
Amazing.
Oh, I'm so glad to know that ofyou.
Um, Brett, is there anythingcoming up for you that maybe we
just haven't touched on that youthink in the realm of
connection, rediscoveringconnection, whether that's
personal, professional, is thereanything coming up that you just
really want to share with, um,with our listeners here?
I think the only thing coming upis I encourage everyone to try
(39:11):
an improv class at some point intheir life, no matter what your
age is, give it a try, whetherit's a drop in or a four week
class or something, I just thinkeveryone can learn something
from those experiences, and itmay be that you do it once and
you think, well, that wasinteresting and I'll never do it
again, but that's okay, I thinkit's worth, you don't have to
(39:32):
perform, just go and experiencethe joy, the connection, and
the, the vulnerability, the kindof stretching that comfort zone
and, and the pride that you feelhaving done something that feels
a bit scary.
Uh, but you're going to come outof there feeling, feeling joyful
and connected at least to, tosome people in the group.
So I think that's it.
(39:52):
I encourage everyone to give ita try.
I'm sold.
I'm coming.
Excellent.
Meanwhile, I'm doing likeimprovised podcasting.
So I've had a good, this is,this has been my warmup.
Perfect.
Thank you, Brett.
It's been a pleasure to get toknow you a little bit deeper and
get to know your work.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Thank you for having me,Shelley.
The more I learned and performedand went to improv festivals was
(00:03):
just the like deep instantaneousconnection you build with these
peoples because it's such avulnerable art form because you
are bringing yourself to thestage, you don't have a script,
you don't have a characternecessarily, it's just you and
the other people on stage andthere has to be a really deep
level of trust to be able tofeel comfortable up there with
(00:26):
them and know that you're takingcare of and you're taking care
of them and vice versa and soum, even within my group in
Munich, we noticed how themindset shift was, was seeping
over into our workplaces andinto our own personal and
professional lives.
Hello and welcome toRediscovering Connection.
I am Shelley Doyle.
(00:47):
This is my first recording of2025 on a full moon.
And January is, I don't knowabout you, but it always a
little bit tough for me.
Um, I have siblings spreadacross the world and three of us
have birthdays within eight daysof each other.
Um, and I'm never together withthem.
(01:08):
The last time we were alltogether.
was eight years ago.
So it's been a long time and I,I did catch a little bit of the
Mark Zuckerberg interview withJoe Rogan at the weekend and
talking about our imaginedhybrid future and about us kind
of having holograph versions of,of our friends and family
(01:29):
teleporting in to play cardstogether.
I've heard a lot of critique ofhis vision.
People are saying that no one'sasking for this, but as someone
who's.
quite nomadic.
I move around a lot.
My favorite humans aren't alwaysnear me or around me.
Um, so I can't help but be alittle bit excited about this
(01:52):
idea of the future.
Um, Brett McDonald is my guesttoday and Thankfully, she is
near me.
She's here in Victoria, BC.
I was so thrilled to be invitedto an event that Brett hosted
yesterday, doing our goals andvision for 2025 with a bunch of
amazing, um, brilliant, uh,professional and personal
(02:14):
contacts from across Victoria.
I came out with a beautifulvision board.
Um, it was a brilliant way tospend a couple of hours on a
Sunday, sipping tea and eatingsushi and doing our vision
board.
So Brett's here with me today.
She's a former teacher, improvexpert, workshop facilitator,
(02:35):
and really helpingorganizations, um, to bring
their teams together in a morejoyful way, a very different way
than they've probablyexperienced before.
Um, I've been blessed toexperience Brett's work at
multiple big events in Victoria,uh, TEDx, Disrupt HR.
Um, all sorts.
(02:55):
So, uh, brilliant to have youhere today, Brett.
Welcome.
How is your Monday feeling sofar?
How is 2025 feeling for you sofar?
Thank you so much, Shelley.
I'm, I'm really touched that tobe here today.
And I think it's so neat that wespent yesterday together as
well.
You know, 2025 is, I think thebeginning of years are always
It's, it's this like feeling ofyou have, you know, like, Oh,
(03:17):
here I go.
I've got to like restarteverything.
But, um, I'm just sort of, I'mimagining I'm on one of those
little lazy rivers on my, on mylittle inner tube and I'm just
coasting along and being like,look at that cool tree.
Look at that interesting person.
So it's good.
Mindfully flowing into the year.
I love this.
something that we touched on,um, yesterday was about our
(03:39):
international experiences.
So perhaps before we delve intowhat you're doing today, I'd
love to just get a sense of yourjourney to here and how kind of
those expatriate experience havereally shaped your path.
Yeah, yeah.
So I actually have been a bit ofa traveler, my first, since I
(04:00):
was a child, uh, my parentsworked for a non profit
organization in Canada calledCUSO.
And so we actually lived inMozambique for three years when
I was three to six years old.
So this was, this kind ofinternational curiosity was
always ingrained in me.
So after I finished training asa teacher, I ended up getting a
job in Scotland.
(04:20):
And so my first.
Two years of teaching were inScotland and from there I moved
over to Berlin in Germany for acouple years and then down to
Munich where I settled for sevenyears.
So I was away for 11 years andreturned back here in in 2016
which created a pivot moment forme where it was a little bit of
coming home but also You know, Ileft as a student and I came
(04:44):
back as an adult and so Victoriawas a very different city to me.
Also, it was 11 years later.
So things had changed, it wasalso a time where I realized I
didn't want to full time teachanymore.
There was something else thatwas bubbling up inside of me to
explore.
So that's what I then took thattime to teach part time and
(05:05):
start exploring what it was Iwanted to do.
Um, Something else with my life.
What else did I want to trybesides teaching?
I guess that's what I'm tryingto say.
Yeah, I love it.
And something that's just comingup to me and we'll talk about
kind of your improv work.
But, um, I know in myconversation with Dr.
(05:26):
Robin Dunbar a year and a halfago, he just mentioned about
When you have something incommon with someone, like if you
visited the same place or ifyou've got a person in common,
um, uh, there's something calleddyadic closure and it just helps
to ignite that spark.
And not long after we met and weconnected on LinkedIn, I noticed
(05:47):
that you were connected with aformer colleague of mine called
Alex Menems, who has shiftedfrom corporate into improv and
it was like almost even thoughwe didn't know each other very
well just seeing thatinternational connection with
someone that I knew quite wellfrom the UK definitely just
helped to, uh, form thatconnectedness between us.
(06:08):
Um, Yeah, so let's talk aboutimprov and like how this has
like really shifted things foryou and how, how this really
helps you to bring joy andconnection into the lives of
whoever participates in in yoursessions.
Yeah, so I'll say my briefly myhistory with improv is I grew up
(06:29):
as a theater kid I was on stagedoing musicals I actually
studied theater beforeeducation, and part of it was an
improv course.
And.
I left theater aside then andmoved on to education and
teaching, but when I was livingin Berlin, I rediscovered improv
there and took an English coursein improv and it had a
performance element.
(06:49):
And that was where I was like,this, oh, this feels good.
And so it led into me cofounding a group in Munich and
that went on.
They're still going, uh, thoughmany of us have moved on.
And what I noticed the more Ilearned and performed and went
to improv festivals was just thelike deep instantaneous
(07:09):
connection you build with thesepeoples because it's such a, it
can't.
It can be a very sort ofvulnerable art form because you
are bringing yourself to thestage, you don't have a script,
you don't have a characternecessarily, it's just you and
the other people on stage andthere has to be a really deep
level of trust to be able tofeel comfortable up there with
(07:32):
them and know that you're takingcare of and you're taking care
of them and vice versa and soum, We, even within my group in
Munich, we noticed how themindset shift was, was seeping
over into our workplaces andinto our own personal and
professional lives.
So when I moved back to Canada,I, that was where the idea kind
of started of like, how do I, Ijust want to speak.
(07:53):
Spread this and share this withother people without the
performance element.
You don't need to get on stageand perform at all.
I just want people to experiencethat joy and that connection and
that like, slight vulnerabilitythat we can all have together to
deepen that connection.
Even if you're not aiming forthe comedy or performing, there
is still such a sense ofjoyousness within all improv
(08:16):
games, I find, because you'reletting go, you're stretching
your comfort zone, and you'rehaving this shared experience
of, like, nerves, which justleads into bubbles of laughter.
Yes.
So much yes to that.
There's two, two things thatreally come up for me there, the
shared experience.
And I think this is so importantand whether it's, I don't know
(08:40):
if any of your delivery isactually virtual, so maybe we
can touch on that, but the ideaof shared experiences and
especially when.
Uh, when people are going backto their offices, like maybe one
or two days a week, and whenwe're there, they're half of
their colleagues aren't therebecause they're working from
home.
And it's like the importance ofcreating these shared
experiences every so often tojust help bring our teams
(09:05):
together.
And then have some, have amemory, have like a core memory
to think back to how silly youallowed yourself to be in the
company of your colleagues.
And then maybe you'll be in areally serious meeting, but
you've still got that knowingthat colleague has a, like a
silly side to them.
And you just see a differentside that, yeah, is a bit more,
(09:29):
um, a bit different to justhaving a drink down the pub.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
One of my recent clients rightbefore Christmas, he said it
perfectly.
It was a, uh, a governmentaladjacent organization and, and
it was all of their stafftogether in the room and we
worked together for two hours.
And at the end of it, he said hewas, you know, he was really
(09:50):
impressed with, with just howengaged everybody was.
But one comment really stood outto me, which was, You know, we
laugh together.
Like, it's not like we don'tlaugh, but he said, I haven't
seen us laugh like that togetherin, I don't know how long.
And I think that's it too.
It's, we all have a good laughevery now and again, but to have
those, like, uproarious, almostlike tear filled laughters where
(10:14):
people are like, my cheeks hurtfrom laughing.
And it's.
Only because they're together,they're not watching something
together, they're engaging in ittogether, and yeah, to that
shared experience, I've beendoing some research into
laughter and the benefits of it,and of course there's all the
known benefits of your heartrate and uplifting things and
everything, but there's alsoevidence now of This shared
(10:37):
laughter deepening connectionsnot shared as in watching
something together, but actuallysharing it together and that
that itself builds trust amongstpeople.
And I just think that's sospecial.
And I can't wait to learn moreabout that too.
I agree.
I think it's beautiful.
Love that so much.
Um, one thing that you mentionedyesterday was, uh, your, your
(11:00):
personal mission to bring joyinto your own daily life.
And I think that was sointeresting.
Just knowing your work is reallyhelping to bring joy into the
lives of your clients andparticipants.
And.
Uh, we spoke also about the ideathat we teach what we need to
(11:20):
learn.
So I wonder if there's justanything coming up for you there
that why you're feeling thiscalling to bring joy to others
and like how important it is tosee yourself as, as, as an
other, as an important person inyour life that you also want to
help share laughter with others.
(11:41):
Yeah, definitely.
I think two things.
One, one is something that I'vebeen working on for a few years
and researching and doing workwith is the idea of self
compassion.
and being aware of my own needsand being okay with taking care
of myself while also taking careof others.
And so I think what I noticed,having really gone full bore
(12:02):
into building my business overthe last year and a half is I
think I forgot to bring joy tomyself.
Like I bring, I love doing whatI do and coming into
organizations and helping otherpeople.
And then I started lookingaround my house and being like,
there's all these puzzles Ihaven't done.
And my guitar, I haven't beenplaying and that crochet project
and that all these differentthings.
(12:22):
And so I thought this year, andI noticed that I just noticed
that in myself that I wasmissing those like little sparks
of excitement that I get in myworkshops.
And I see other people get, andI thought, what about.
I need to feel that too, becauseif I feel that, that's just
going to benefit my workshopparticipants even more as well.
Um, and it's a journey.
We talked about that yesterday,that we are, I'm doing it
(12:46):
because I love helping otherpeople come to these
realizations, but I also loveComing to these realizations
myself and learning as I go too,so, yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent, um,yeah.
I'm there with you on thisjourney of knowing that we teach
what we need to learn.
And I watch back, um, just acouple of my interviews over
(13:08):
the, over the break.
And one of them I was sayinglike, hand on heart, like I feel
connected and supported where Iam right now.
And it's like, on that day thatI did that recording, I felt
that way.
And that's not to say that twoweeks later I feel exactly the
same way because maybe I haven'tbeen connecting outside of my
bubble as much as I want tobecause I have very demanding
(13:32):
children and I, I just don'thave the capacity when they're
here full time to actuallyconnect with the people that I
really want to and have thosenutritious conversations that
you can like.
Go over an hour if you feelcompelled to because you've got
the spaciousness.
So I know I need to do more ofthe work in my own life.
And I've got, like I said, I'vegot amazing contacts all around
(13:54):
the world, but it's reallycarving out the time and the
intention to reconnect so thatwe do feel connected.
And some of the times I'llreconnect and I'll have these
like.
big realizations.
And sometimes it can take a lotof energy to reconnect with
people.
And then you have like anamazing, um, hour together and
(14:15):
you're like, wow, I really feellike our relationship is like
back on track.
And then again, another sixmonths go by and you're like,
Damn it.
I like, I did the work to get usback together.
And then the follow up wasn'tthere.
So it's about how do we getregularity back into those
connections, whether that's likeonce a year or once a quarter or
(14:37):
whatever, and sensing that.
So that's part of my work on myown personal journey to feel
connected to my people aroundthe world.
So a little bit of an insightinto me.
Um, So we spoke about movingbefore.
So you've lived in Scotland andin Germany, and I wonder how
your, how your feeling ofconnectedness was in these
(14:59):
places around the world.
And I dare say like theenvironments, like if you're
teaching in Scotland, you'relike moving into like a whole
community of people.
So you, you, you kind of havethose people naturally around
you.
So I wonder how your feelings ofconnection was in these
different places around theworld.
Yeah.
Oh, that's a great question.
And it's just made me come to arealization that I had two very
(15:23):
different experiences inScotland versus in Germany.
Um, in Scotland, I moved therewith one of my good friends from
here.
We both graduated.
She's a McLeod.
I'm a McDonald.
We were like, we're going toScotland to conquer the max.
And, uh, We moved to a verysmall town in the Scottish
borders, and so there was noother international people
there.
We, you know, we even, I have anarticle still of us on the front
(15:46):
of the local newspaper with ourCanadian flag, you know, we
really stood out.
And we were lucky we had eachother, and we loved road
tripping all over Scotland, allover the UK, really.
Um, but it took us a while tobreak into the local community.
Like any small town, you need aninn.
And we finally got an inn.
And, uh, even though we wereboth working in schools, that
(16:06):
was one way in, but it was theinn to the local, you know, the
rugby people, the, the localtheatre people.
And we were only there for twoyears, but we made, you know, I
still have close friends that Icatch up with every time I go
back.
And so that was one community ofreally breaking into the local.
And once I moved to Germany, Iwas working in international.
So I was joining into schoolsthat were full of expats.
(16:29):
And so you had thisinstantaneous group of like 10
to 20, however many friends youwant.
Um, and you were working veryintensely within the schools as
well.
And it wasn't so much aboutgetting into the local
community.
Partly because of the languagebarrier as well.
So that made it tricky, but Ithink in terms of connections
again I think there is somethingto it was, you know, kind of the
(16:51):
formative years of my life I wasmy into my 20s into my 30s while
I lived there and I was reallycoming into myself and learning
who I was as a person and who Iwanted around me and The expat
community is just so special,um, I think in many places.
I think in Asia, it's even moreunique.
It's much more intense there.
But even in Europe, to be withall these international people
(17:14):
who just want to know otherinternational people, you
instantaneously have such neatbonds because you're so,
everyone's so curious about eachother and curious about how we
It's just such work and what ourcultural differences are and and
similarities and you know,whether it was the theater
groups I joined or the schools Iwas a part of, um, and then of
course I used a lot of likemeetup.
(17:35):
com was really big back then andthere was a thing called
internations.
I didn't know if you know thatit was a professional
international one and yeah.
Oh, in fact, I think you're kindof active on the internations
here, aren't you?
A little bit.
A little bit.
I've been so curious because itwas such a big part of a couple
of years in Munich for me, but Ijust feel.
It would be different.
So to wrap it up, I'll say whenI moved back to Canada, it was a
(17:56):
real seeking of whether it wasinternational people or people
who had lived internationally.
Like those were the people Iwanted to connect with here
because I didn't want to losethat huge part of my life, that
international mindset andexperience.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And the repatriation I hearagain and again is almost
(18:20):
harder.
Then the expatriate adventurebecause you come back and maybe
your old friends and connectionslike they're expecting the old
version of you to return andyou're like, Oh, hey guys.
Like, Oh no, this is the new me.
Um, and, uh, maybe yourwavelengths are somewhat
(18:40):
different and the expectation offalling back into old folds
maybe doesn't feel as natural asyou anticipated that it might.
I wonder if you've got any.
Any, anything that you want toshare on that, that repatriation
part of your journey?
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say that, uh, reverseculture shock is a real thing.
(19:01):
Um, like I said, I was gone for11 years, and I would, Germany
is a very different type ofcult.
Even Scotland's a lot differentthan living in Canada.
I mean, you would know UK toCanada differences too, of
course.
Um, There were friends that Ihad left from university here
who, you know, have never leftand they've gotten married and
had kids and, and my partner andI have chosen not to have kids.
(19:25):
So I came back, you know, justthe two of us.
And I think One bonus I have isthat my partner is from Germany.
I met him there.
He's very international as well,and he was super excited to move
to Canada.
And so, I had this person in my,in my house, literally, who I
could talk to about the trips wedid and the travels we did.
And we could analyze the waythat Canadians do things and
(19:46):
laugh about moments whereeveryone's apologizing over the
most, you know, where we arestanding in line at the grocery
store.
And we just thought it washilarious.
You know, I think I was reallylucky in that way.
But, but I found it hard.
There were things that I missedfrom Germany.
And I think, of course, thebiggest thing I missed were my
friends.
All my, all my close friendsstill, most of my close friends
(20:07):
live in Europe or they've leftEurope and gone back to
Australia or wherever.
And so there was this reallonging, too, of like, how am I
possibly going to makeTranscribed new friends to that
level again.
Is that even possible?
And am I okay with that?
And, um, yeah.
And then I think just gettingused to how things are done
here.
It's, it's, it's a lot gentlerand kind of easygoing and, you
(20:31):
know, Germans will say it likeit is.
And, and, uh, there's a reason Ileft Germany though, too.
I was ready to come back tofriendly Kind of surface level
bubbly people too.
I, I needed to get back intothat for my own mental health as
well.
So it was a, it's a mixed bag.
It's a hard question to answerin.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like there's, uh, the wordthat's coming to mind is banter.
(20:54):
Like in the UK, like you havebanter, like you take the mickey
out of each other.
And it, it feels like thatdoesn't really happen here.
Like it feels like it could betaken in the wrong way.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I think that's part of like,I miss, I love going back to
Scotland and the UK because Imiss things like real banter
and, and just, I feel like whenI was living in Scotland, it
(21:17):
was, I always say it was a goodease into Germany because
already in Scotland, people weredefinitely more.
up front with what they weresaying and they just say things
like it is and, and, but withthis real like sense of humor
and stuff.
And then you get to Germany andthey've lost the humor aspect,
mostly.
Um, I just said that of course,jokingly, but, uh, but it's
very, you know, straightforwardthere.
(21:38):
And so it was a nice ease.
So I definitely miss that.
I will say from Germany toCanada, Canada, there's a lot
more banter here.
Germans don't really banter.
It's not really, in myexperience, it's not a, my, my
American friend and I would talkabout that in Germany, how we
miss that just like boom, boom,boom, that funny banter.
Um, so you definitely get moreof it here, but I totally see
what you mean that it's nothingcompared to, to the UK.
(22:02):
What I love about the Germanlanguage is some of the phrases.
Um, my favorite German phrase isKopfkino.
Have you heard of this one?
I can translate it to whatever.
Yeah, so cinema in your mind.
So if you're just going off on atangent and someone would be
like, you're having a cop kinomoment right now.
Like this is not happeninganywhere else except for your
(22:25):
mind.
Like, oh my gosh, it's just notsomething that we necessarily
would.
So, um, my former boss wasGerman.
Um, so I had four years ofworking side by side, um, and
learning.
So learning some of thesephrases to just throw into our
conversations, which alwaysbrought him a little bit of joy
(22:46):
that I would take the effort tolearn a few bits and pieces in
German.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we mentioned about you havingconnections all around the world
and I know about your in persondelivery.
Do you, do you do much virtualand do you, do you enjoy doing
like your work in a virtualenvironment?
(23:07):
How is that received?
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
You know, it really Picked upover the pandemic.
I was still building my businessat that point, and there's a
network out there called theApplied Improv Network, which is
all people like me who are usingimprov and applying it in
different situations, medicalfields, politics, you know, all
(23:28):
sorts of industries.
They all hopped online at thebeginning of the pandemic and
we're like, how do we do thisvirtual?
So I got thrown right into itthere.
And so, yeah, I did a fairamount of virtual during the
pandemic.
Um, I worked with libraryfederations around BC actually,
cause they were learning how toput their programming online and
how to use zoom.
(23:48):
And so I would do workshops forthem on some of the basic tools
of zoom.
Uh, and then also.
Some games and exercises theycould use.
And we talked a lot aboutconnection before content.
That was kind of the biggesttheme was it's not just about
getting people like a normalspace, but getting people in the
zoom room, we need to get themconnected because you're all
sitting in your own littlebubbles.
(24:09):
Um, so that was great.
So I think that's still, when Ido do virtual ones, which I do
do every now and again, it's.
I really want, I use thebreakout rooms because I want
people to connect and we stilldo it through improv games and,
and getting to know each otherkind of prompt questions and
such, um, because I want toprove that it is possible.
I know there's people who aredoing it tremendously better
(24:33):
than I am, but I want to showthat even just the simplest way.
You can build that connectionwithin there.
Totally.
Totally.
And I, I did do a one to onesession with Alex Menon.
Um, a couple of years ago now.
And it was what I found reallyinteresting was the invitation
(24:54):
and ability to play with ouremotions.
in like a safe setting so he waslike giving me a present like a
pretend present through thescreen and then saying like when
you receive this you're going tobe really unhappy like you're
going to be real it's not goingto be what you wanted at all and
then it's like playing with likemy like Maybe I'm gonna hide the
(25:18):
unhappiness, but still, like,feel it.
And that's it.
You, you, you do, you feel theemotions.
So that, I, I found, I'm like, Iwant to find some way to do kind
of authentic improv.
And it was like, well, this kindof is because we're
authentically feeling thefeelings.
Even though it's a curated.
(25:41):
fictional scenario that's beingpresented to us.
So I found that so intriguing.
So I want to do some more improvfor sure, for sure.
And I want to say, can I jump inand say one thing?
Cause I want to clarify, cause Ilove what you said about doing
that.
Now I've forgotten the word youuse, but that sort of authentic
improv.
And this is something I reallytry to explain to people right
(26:02):
off the bat.
Because I think a lot of people,especially North Americans, only
know improv as, like, the showWhose Line Is It Anyway.
Yes.
Which is all, I mean, those guysare unbelievable, they're so
talented, they've been doing itfor decades, and, and, uh It's a
very curated, performative,comedy focused format.
(26:24):
And so I think a lot of peoplethink of improv as improv
comedy, and many people call itimprov comedy, and that it's all
about the laugh and the joke andso on.
And I wanna, I always try to letpeople know there's a whole
other side of improv, whichstill has a layer of comedy,
because it's, all, you know,discovered on the spot and
spontaneous.
So you're gonna have comedy init, but it is genre focused.
(26:47):
It is truthful.
It can make you cry.
It can make you feel scared.
It can, it can make you feel allthe other emotions beyond just a
laugh.
And what it's really about ishitting on, relatability where
you're watching something andyou're like that, wow.
I know exactly what that feelslike and what, whatever emotion
(27:09):
it brings up.
And that's the world of improvthat I love to live in.
That's, I call it narrativeimprov, that's not the technical
name, but it's more about thestories and the relationships
and the people that are in thereand what's happening.
And the exercises to get to thatplace are similar as to the
comedy place, but there's adifferent intention there where
(27:29):
it's a real, it's a human sense.
One of my favorite tools whenI'm performing improv is if I
don't know what to say, I juststate what I'm feeling in that
moment, like I might actuallyjust say, I don't know what to
say.
And that's a gift to my partnerbecause they're going to be
like, one, I know Brett, theimproviser is feeling lost.
And two, I'm going to use thatas my gift for my next line.
(27:51):
So yeah, I love what you justsaid.
Um, cause that is a huge part ofimprov.
And I think yeah.
Many, if not most people don'tunderstand that or know that
yet.
And that's bringing up somethingquite profound for me.
One of my earliest podcastinterviews is with a brilliant
coach called Kirsten Barfoot.
(28:12):
And she does, in her coachingwork, when she was starting out,
she had an experience with aclient and She didn't know what
to say after her client hadrevealed something and she spoke
that she just said, I don't knowwhat to say.
And that honesty in her sayingthat created an aha moment for
(28:39):
her client.
So it's like us being truthful.
We don't know what to say inthis moment or how I'm feeling
in this moment helps others havebreakthroughs.
Yeah, yeah, it takes away that,that need to be forced to say
something or like scramble forsomething, whether it's a moment
(29:01):
of silence or it's a moment of,I don't know what to say.
And I, and I feel like thispodcast journey is helping with
that because we give each othergrace.
Like if we don't know what tosay, you know, I might just
pause and edit something outlater.
But in the boardroom where Icome from a very corporate
environment, if I didn't knowwhat to say, I probably would
(29:23):
have just continued talking.
So it's like, I'm, I've learnedthis over the last few years and
what a gift that is.
Wow, so thank you for that huge,huge reminder and I really hope
that helps other people torealise that when they don't
know what to say, it's okay tosay that.
And we spoke a bit about trustbefore and I think that, that is
(29:49):
a huge trust builder.
To be honest, um, and trust issomething that's coming up in my
research again and again, um,and I'm, at the moment my, my
research is all about hybrid,hybrid working and in connection
and like building trust when itis mainly through a screen and
how challenging that can be andhow we do need some, you know,
(30:13):
face to face interaction to, tobuild that trust and how
different organizations areplaying around with that.
I wonder if there's anythingelse on trust that we could dig
into.
I think what you just said, Ireally liked was the different
ways of building trust.
I imagine it's scary to be in aleadership role and see a
breakdown of trust and be like,what do I do?
(30:33):
And easily just pick those go tokind of activities.
Um, but to really sit down andfind out like what's what's the
reason what's happening here?
What are other ways that we cantry and rebuild trust in here?
And, and I definitely don'tthink I'm the answer, but I am a
clue.
I think improv is a clue.
is a seed that can be used aspart of that rebuilding as well.
(30:57):
Um, so I think, yeah, lookingfor different ways of building
trust.
And also people build trustthemselves in different ways as
well, too.
And I think that when we'rethinking about inclusivity in
workplaces, it's also thinkingabout learning styles or Or, um,
of course there's the introvert,extrovert things to keep in mind
(31:19):
as well, but this idea thatpeople build trust in different
ways and trust looks differentfor everybody at the same time
too.
So there's not a one size fitsall for, and now we all have
trust.
It's like, no, maybe it's a bitof a spectrum.
I don't know.
Like, I think it is when itcomes to connections.
Like I have this much trust withthis person and maybe a little
bit less trust with this one.
I'm still building it.
(31:39):
And, and I think it's okay to.
To again, like, speak the truthon that.
We're building trust indifferent ways here, and yeah,
those are my, my ramblingthoughts on trust.
And like, organizations thathave gone through big change
programs that every organizationdoes, uh, when that trust has
eroded, like, having anicebreaker.
(32:02):
Like the improv just to maybethe tension has just been
building and building and it'slike you just need to do
something for you all to justbreak out of that and help to
reset and I know when I wasliving at the eco village for
four months.
Um, it was, um.
It, it got quite overwhelmingsometimes, particularly in the
(32:24):
winter when we were inside andwe'd be seeing, you know, these
other 15 humans three times aday, it was like, you know, can
be too much.
And then on a Friday, we wouldhave these heart circles and
we'd sit around and we, we wouldbe brutally just honest about
whatever's coming up for us.
And it was all about don'tpremeditate, just allow whatever
wants to be said to be said.
(32:45):
And you go around three timesand it always felt like on the
Saturday after being in that.
kind of trusted circleenvironment, there was a
lightness that you then had withthe other community members that
we like, we know we see eachother in a different way now.
(33:05):
So it's almost like breakingthat.
breaking that boundary, doingsomething that's going to get
you in a different frame.
And that can really help.
Monday morning, you come intothe office and you're not going
to keep doing improv every day,or maybe some of them will, but,
but, but it's, it's kind ofchanged the dynamic.
It's changed the tone.
Yeah.
(33:25):
It's given some new lenses too.
I think it's, it's, it's justshifted that mindset.
Cause we all get.
You know, I think some of usmore than others get set on that
fixed mindset.
And so it's, it's breaking that,like you said, or shifting it,
just cracking it a little bitand being like, Hey, have you
thought of it this way?
Have you looked at it from thisangle and bringing that
curiosity into it too?
(33:47):
So what's next?
What's next?
What's next in your world?
Like what's, what's in your, inyour vision board?
Like what's the most excitingthing that you're working on
that you're like, this is reallygoing to shift things for me.
It's going to shift things forthe people that I serve.
Good question.
I think part of what's drivingme this year is, uh, I'm
(34:09):
continuing to evolve what it isI'm offering for my clients and
how it is I'm serving the peoplethat I'm working with.
And one thing for me is now toreally look back at my full time
business in the past year and ahalf is what are people looking
for?
Like, what is it that theseorganizations and these leaders
are seeking and like cravingand, and what's coming out of
(34:30):
the work I'm doing with them andbeing able to shift that more
and bring that more into thelight.
So I think really focusing on,um, the wonderful people that
I've worked with already andlearning from them.
What's out there and maybefinding new ways of helping them
or finding different waysbecause I think improv can be
used in so many different placesand situations.
(34:50):
And every time there's a newopportunity that comes, you
know, have you ever like thevisioning thing yesterday?
I, you know, I didn't bring anyimprov into that really, but
bringing other areas of mytraining and my experience in
and I guess just finding Ialways love evolving and
learning and trying new things.
And so I think part of it now isa focusing, though, on the
wonderful people I've workedwith so far and taking that
(35:12):
knowledge and learning andmoving it out back to them or
into to new people as well.
And, you know, I've been part ofsome networking groups locally
now for, it's been a full year,and so I feel like, okay, I've
settled in, it's kind of likewhen you move to a new country,
I feel like the first yearyou're like, what's, what is
this?
Oh, that's, oh, and you'realways just like a step, a step
(35:34):
behind everything, somethingcool happens, and you make, make
a note for next year, and it'syear two where you kind of
settle in and you really find,you Your home and your space and
your people and I think that'skind of the pro this the stage
I'm in in my business with withit as a full time business now,
um, is that like, okay, I know,I know what's coming.
(35:55):
How am I really going to wearthe bits I'm going to thrive in
and really put my focus and myenergy into as well.
And we mentioned about somevirtual improv groups but for
those.
Uh, listeners in Victoria, arethere any groups that you've
joined that you've really feltat home in and you're like,
these are going to, you know,continue to be a fixture in my
(36:17):
weekly or monthly diary thatother people might want to check
out?
Yeah.
I mean, I think for myself, italways, and I think for anybody,
it really comes down to thepeople in the room and, and how
the space is kind of held and,and run if it's, if it's like a
free form one or if there is ateacher.
So that.
That's been a journey for me asI rediscover the communities in,
(36:40):
in Victoria, but I will say, um,I always recommend Paper Street
Theatre.
I really love the improv they dobecause it is, as Dave Morris,
their, their, um, founder says,it's improv that feels like
theatre.
And so it's all genre basedtheatre, and he does really
interesting, unique, and it's,really, And, uh, with all those
range of authentic emotions likewe talked about.
(37:02):
So definitely they do shows andworkshops as well.
I always think that's a greatplace to start, um, but it is
not a comedy focused improv.
So if you want to do comedyfocused improv, then I would
highly recommend my friend,Alexander Foreman, who does.
Okay, dope.
They do comedy and improv andAlex runs a series of workshops,
even for kids now too.
And uh, so if you're looking abit more, if you enjoy the
(37:23):
comedy aspect of it, she teachesa style that is much more comedy
focused and they have showsevery week.
They have numerous showshappening at the mint downtown.
So it's, uh, yeah, there was adifferent thing.
Those are my two that I'drecommend.
And are you fully focused onkind of the corporate space or
do you do, do you do any stufffor, for general kind of
(37:44):
consumers or children yourself?
Oh yeah, great question.
So my kind of, my side, my sidehustle that I love to do out of
passion is, is actually Improvfor seniors.
So I do it at various seniorcenters in town.
Um, some of them are all ages,some are more senior focused
like Silver Threads andsometimes I do Monterey Rec in
Oak Bay.
Um, I also work in some, uh,retirement communities and do
(38:05):
workshops for them and a memorycafe which works with people
living with memory loss.
So there is that kind ofcommunity side.
So it's a bit more focused onseniors in that sense.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And I, I imagine those eventswould be really satisfying.
Oh, they're incredible.
I mean, it's generally women whocome, which is interesting.
(38:27):
You know, you imagine a roomfull of women who are 60, 70,
80, 90 even, and they are just,they're going back to their
childhood.
They are just, everything'scoming up and they have so much
experience and wisdom to shareand they're so reflective and
they love this like breaking outof their shell and, and uh,
yeah, it's such a joy.
I love that space as well.
So.
(38:48):
Amazing.
Oh, I'm so glad to know that ofyou.
Um, Brett, is there anythingcoming up for you that maybe we
just haven't touched on that youthink in the realm of
connection, rediscoveringconnection, whether that's
personal, professional, is thereanything coming up that you just
really want to share with, um,with our listeners here?
I think the only thing coming upis I encourage everyone to try
(39:11):
an improv class at some point intheir life, no matter what your
age is, give it a try, whetherit's a drop in or a four week
class or something, I just thinkeveryone can learn something
from those experiences, and itmay be that you do it once and
you think, well, that wasinteresting and I'll never do it
again, but that's okay, I thinkit's worth, you don't have to
(39:32):
perform, just go and experiencethe joy, the connection, and
the, the vulnerability, the kindof stretching that comfort zone
and, and the pride that you feelhaving done something that feels
a bit scary.
Uh, but you're going to come outof there feeling, feeling joyful
and connected at least to, tosome people in the group.
So I think that's it.
(39:52):
I encourage everyone to give ita try.
I'm sold.
I'm coming.
Excellent.
Meanwhile, I'm doing likeimprovised podcasting.
So I've had a good, this is,this has been my warmup.
Perfect.
Thank you, Brett.
It's been a pleasure to get toknow you a little bit deeper and
get to know your work.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Thank you for having me,Shelley.
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