December 12, 2024 • 31 mins
On today's episode we discuss Dia de La Virgen Guadalupe. We are joined by a special guest, Nellie from Milwaukee!
Please visit Edward's blog! Let's keep this family research going: http://ruedafingerhut.blogspot.com/
Rediscovering Latinidad is an independent podcast. This show is hosted by Briar Rose, Fausto, Edward, y Jellissa and is engineered by Matthew Sambolin. Cover art designed by George Colon. If you would like to reach out, please email us at RediscoveringLatinidad@gmail.com, or leave us a voicemail at 646-470-9824. Please find us and follow our social media accounts on Facebook as Rediscovering Latinidad, on Instagram at @RediscoveringLatinidad, on Twitter at @RediscLatinidad, and on reddit at r/RediscoveringLatindad. If you would like to become a member of our Patreon, please join at: https://patreon.com/RediscoveringLatinidad?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator
Please visit Edward's blog! Let's keep this family research going: http://ruedafingerhut.blogspot.com/
Rediscovering Latinidad is an independent podcast. This show is hosted by Briar Rose, Fausto, Edward, y Jellissa and is engineered by Matthew Sambolin. Cover art designed by George Colon. If you would like to reach out, please email us at RediscoveringLatinidad@gmail.com, or leave us a voicemail at 646-470-9824. Please find us and follow our social media accounts on Facebook as Rediscovering Latinidad, on Instagram at @RediscoveringLatinidad, on Twitter at @RediscLatinidad, and on reddit at r/RediscoveringLatindad. If you would like to become a member of our Patreon, please join at: https://patreon.com/RediscoveringLatinidad?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Brain rose here from the Rediscovering Latini that podcast serving
and supporting our Latin familias is important and rewarding work.
But the reality is not all service providers are the same.
While there are lots of amazing teams out there doing
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(00:34):
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Parenting is an organization based in Santana, California, dedicated to
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They have worked with schools, universities, and organizations around the country,
(00:58):
including MIT, Mihinte and the Institute of Child Technology, presenting workshops, trainings,
and series for professionals working with the Latin community. Whether
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school administrator, or anyone serving Latin familias, LATINX Parenting has
something for you. Reach out to partnerships at Latinxparenting dot
(01:22):
org to learn how to bring LATINX parenting to your communidad.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Rediscovering Latinidad. This is
season five, episode thirteen, when we're going to be talking
about Senora Guadalupe. I'm Fausto, I'm out Word.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm Briar Rose, and I'm j Lisa.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And today we're also going to be joined by one
of my colleagues from Milwaukee, Nellie.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Nelli, Hi, everyone, And so we wanted to talk a
little bit about Guada Lupez. We're you know, progressing in
our podcast right and and and really talking about different
topics of importance to Latino Hispanic Latino American people and
Lesnuada Lupe is a huge deal, not just I mean
(02:24):
especially for the Mexican people, but also for the rest
of Latin America. She is also known as La Emperatrice,
the last Americas are Empress of the Americas. So a
little bit about her story. So for those of us
who are not Catholic, every once in a while, the
(02:48):
Virgin Mary, you know, does a cameo and appears at
a different in a different part of the world where
she comes in, you know, tells us about the message
of Jesus Christ and essentially shows us to his path,
and so for Nasasaguada Lupe. She appeared in particular in Mexico.
(03:09):
This was in the early fifteen hundreds, right after the
destruction of the Aztec Empire and other empires in what
is today Mexico. So on December ninth, fifteen thirty one,
there was an indigenous man named Tuan Diego who had
recently converted to Catholicism, and he was walking near a
(03:35):
hill that was called Depeyac, which is in Suda in Mexico,
Mexico City. He was on his way to church, actually,
and as he's walking by this hill, he all of
a sudden hears this beautiful music, birds singing, and really
sees sort of like this radiant light. And so he
is also hearing his name. Someone is calling him juang
(03:59):
Con Dieguito, Juanito Jo, and he of course is like
looking for this person who is calling him, and so
he comes upon this young woman. And this young woman
is surrounded by light, dressed in a blue mantle which
is adorned with stars. The woman speaks to Juan Diego
(04:22):
in his native Nawadl language and introduces herself and let's
lets him know that she is the Virgin Mary, the
Mother of God. She then asks Juan Diego to go
to the Bishop Fray Juan Dee Sumarraga, and requests that
the bishop build a shrine in her honor in the
(04:44):
city on top of the hill in Tepeyac. So j
Diego goes to the bishop. He's made to wait a
long time. He tells a bishop what this woman said
and who she said she was. The Bisho is kind
of like, all right, let me let me think about it,
dismisses him. Juan Diego goes back to the lady and says,
(05:07):
you know, I went to the bishop, but he, you know,
he sent me back. He didn't believe me. So she
actually appears a couple more times and sends him back
to the bishop. The bishop each time makes him wait
even longer than before. At one point, Juan Diego's a
little deflated, and he was living with an uncle, and
(05:29):
so his uncle actually was sick. So Juan Diego was
sort of trying to take a different path so as
not to see the lady again. But she appears to
him and so he lets her know, you know, my
uncle is sick, and she says, don't worry about it.
He's healed. Go back to the go back to the bishop.
(05:50):
The bishop says, finally says to him, you know, have
this lady provides some proof, so come back with with proof.
He goes back to the lady. I was a lady
what the bishop said. And she says, okay, great, So
you have a a thema. A thema is kind of
like a like a cloak. I guess I would say,
you know that was used to it was worn in
front and used to to carry things. And so she
(06:14):
says to him, go to the hill. Take your thema.
You're going to find some flowers up there. And this
is in December. Remember this. You're going to find some
flowers up there, Go pick them, put them in your thema,
and bring them to me. He does what he was instructed,
brings the cut flowers to the woman. The woman blesses
(06:35):
the flowers and then sends him to the bishop and
she says, you cannot show this to anyone, accept the bishop.
So he goes to the bishop. You know, people are
trying to sort of like bug him and you know,
get him to show what's in the thingma. He's like, no, no, no,
I can't until until I see the bishop. The bishop
comes out, He's like, okay, do you have you know,
(06:56):
do you have the proof? And Juan Diego says yes,
right here. So then he releases his stigma. Where the
flowers that roll out of the thema are Castilian roses,
so not roses that should be one in bloom in
December and two growing in that part of the world.
And what but most importantly on this thema is this
(07:20):
image of the woman that Juan Diego had seen. And
so the bishop Sumataga is you know, of course, like,
oh my god, it is the Virgin, you know who
who has sent you? He like falls to his knees
and has a shrine a chapel built to her on Tepeyac.
(07:41):
I will go ahead and pause there, Nellie, did I
get all of the details correctly? And is there anything
that I may have been missing? There?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
No, no, no, I think you got everything. And you
know that's a beautiful story and you got it your
own point.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay, thank you. And so one of the reasons why
I know this so for context, Nelia as well, right
as you know, I grew up Catholic. I grew up
in a neighborhood that for the most part was mostly Dominican,
but really there was sort of like everyone from from everywhere,
and our church would celebrate thea you know, the Santos
patronales from our countries, and in particular I always remember
(08:18):
Neguada Lupe and so at every Guadalupe mess around, you know,
December twelfth, they would have they would have like a
little play of of this story and and yeah, so
that's how like I learned about the story of Guada
up and why I was just kind of like, okay,
these are the details that that I that I recall.
(08:40):
So it was a shrine that was built in the
fifteen hundreds, but over time, right, it became you know,
sort of bigger, as more more people would go on
pilgrimage to visit the image. So the image right now,
there's a basilica, a ginormous, genormous church that was built
in that area, but that was only finished a little
(09:01):
bit less than a hundred years ago, if I'm not mistaken,
But the image is still preserved from fifteen thirty one.
It is the original one. The image is not a painting,
so there are no brushstrokes on the image either, which
is you know, something that you know a lot of
people are kind of like, well, how could someone have
(09:22):
put this image together? No one painted it. It's just
like imposed on the fabric. It is in like climate
controlled right to make sure they preserve it for generations.
But I also think, if I'm not mistaken, that like
it's not there. It hasn't suffered any damage in almost
four hundred, four hundred years, and a lot of Mexicans,
(09:47):
Mexican Americans are very devoted to to Nicta Senora de
ja la Lupe. I will talk a little bit more
also about sort of like the significance of the image,
why she looks the way that she does. But I
wanted to and then sort of like what why she Well, yes,
why she looks the way that she does, the significance
to the indigenous peoples of the time as well, But
(10:10):
I wanted to take a pause and really just sort
of like ask Nelly a couple of questions, right, like
can you remind or tell us a little bit about
how your devotion to necess and Lupe began and what
your personal experience and story to that to your devotion
you know, look like sure.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah, thank you, fausto. Yeah. I want to start by
saying that I was born and raised in Mexico, you know,
as well as my parents and all my family members.
So I want to say that my devotion started since,
I would say, since I was little, because my dad
he you know, he's gone now, but he was a
huge devotion, you know, devotion. He had a huge devotion
(10:54):
to our bipe and that was especially I think because
you know our lady of Wallaalupe, there's we have a
very religious and like a strong religious significance, and that
is because of some of I would say, my father
(11:15):
when they were expecting a long time ago, when they
were my mom was expecting my older sister, they were
told by the doctor that you know that my sister
well you know, she could have could have had some
medical problems. So they were naturally my sister was gonna
make it, you know, to get born. So my dad
and my mom I remember that, and this is a
(11:37):
story that they told me that they they went to
the church, they went to the to the cathedral in
Sanuis Potosi where I was born, and they kind of
asked the version of Wallalalupealupe like please let my you know,
my daughter get born and then we all bring her
to you and we will also take her to Mexico City.
(12:01):
So there was my sister, you know, you know, she's
she's now forty nine years old and her name is
Bala Lupe Mariaguala Lupez, so she I know that this.
I believe that's how that devotion started because they saw
a miracle, they asked for something, you know, they asked
for a miracle. And then you know, all of a sudden,
(12:21):
when my mom, when my sister was born, the doctor
not even knew how my sister made it. So I
think that's how the devotion started. Thenis I would say,
also it's a cultural thing that after you know that
not just that, but I also have had personal experiences
my own that I again, I we I asked the
(12:44):
Virgin Blavisiandola Lupez like you know, I mean, you know,
I'm going through these challenges and you know, I pray
and I ask her for you know, for a sign
or I asked her for a miracle and all of this,
you know, all of all of a sudden, I you know,
things that were challenging for me, then all of the things,
you know, they get straight. So I think that's and
(13:07):
I think it's just not my story, but I know
that a lot of Mexicans we are very very devoted
to Lavish and Nooela Lupe. And I think it's it's
it's you know, it's because of we see her, because
she was a proclaim. I think who protects and leads
you know, not just the Mexican but like like you
(13:27):
mentioned that you know a lot of people from Latin
and Latin America. So I think that's that's how my
devotion started and up until now. You know, every time
when I I'm in trouble, not in trouble, but I'm
going through challenges and I'm the first question that I
think of is the vision Nobela Lupe.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Thank you so much, Netlie for for sharing your your story,
in particular your your family's devotion. I remember, even growing
up as as a kid, like sometimes on the New
Use they would show people on pilgrimage to see Mexico
to Mexico City to see leveting and oftentimes like literally
(14:09):
there are people who who who walk on their knees
from their place of origin wherever they came from, like
literally to Mexico City to see the Virgin. Whether it's
because they're asking for something or in an act of thanksgiving?
Was that also your experience, Neali, have you seen that tour?
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Yes? Yes, and actually you know, my mom and my
dad when my sister turned fifty, because this is something
that you know that they asked the Virgin Davisendela Lupe
before my sister was born. So they also made a
promise to the Vicendola Lupe that they were going to
be taken for that not just to the Caral Cathedral,
but also to the Mexico City. So when my sisters,
(14:52):
my sister turned fifteen, they had an opportunity to take
my sister all the way down to Mexico City and
my mom, my dad, and my sister, not my sister,
I mean my sister went there, but my mom and
my dad they were actually doing the pilgrim underneath. Yes,
have you.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Ever made a pilgrimage to the Basilica?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Not to the.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Basilica and not yet, but I have done it in
Sanris Potosi. That was when I the first time I
came to the United States, and then I got the
opportunity to go back. So that was a promise that
that the next time that I will be in Mexico,
then I will go and see her. But that again,
that was a cathedral that we have, you know that
(15:40):
it's the catrio's name is also Viendupe. That's that's that's
his name. So that's why we a lot of you
know a lot of people go there also, you know,
around Sanris Potosi. They typically go there if they're not
able to go to the you know, to Mexico City
to see her. But I personally haven't have not done it,
(16:01):
but if I for sure, if I will have the opportunity,
I will definitely that's something that I will be doing.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Okay, And in what ways is her feast day celebrated
both in you know, like your family and and from
what you've experienced in Mexico itself.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah, so, like you mentioned, it is celebrator on December twelfth,
so it's celebrated, you know, and again we celebrate that
in order in order in honor of the Virgin Mary
as well. And the celebration, I would say, you know,
for the Mexicans, we go to the church, like if
(16:41):
it's it's on December eleventh, before twelve am, we go
to a church, you know, a Catholic church, and that's
where we typically they hold a math and this is
like a culture, a tradition that we have in my
family that we always have to go to math and
and kind of pray and then you know, because we
(17:04):
have these faith and it's also be an identity with
her that that's why it's a tradition for us, and
that's how we celebrated.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No misad gadya. I think that's what they're called.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Yeah, that's that's what. Yeah, it is, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
And I think it's called the Missa dee Gaya or
like I guess a Rooster's mass today. Yeah, right, because
it happens like literally, you know, so so early in
the morning. So I wonder as well, Nelly, what messages
or lessons from the story do you find our most
(17:42):
inspiring or relevant to today?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I would say, you know, I you know, I just
want to say, like it's very inspiring. I mean for me,
like especially because of my color and like brown, and
I know that you know, like like you just mentioned
a little bit ago, like the More the Virgin that
(18:10):
where she the appearance or where she was talking to
Fan Diego, it was at an indigenous area. So I
think that's very important for me because I I identify myself
with you know, with her and again, like I said,
with not just Mexicans but also people from Latin America.
(18:31):
So I think that that's the most inspiring for me,
Like I am very proud of knowing that, you know,
from all around the world that she picked that specific
place in Mexico, and I think that's that's something that
I'm very very proud and inspiring for me.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yes, I forgot to mention Thepez also known as lavidng Morena,
morena and more means I guess kind of like brownish.
I mean, I guess comes from more Ish, but but yeah,
it means sort of like darker, darker skin. And so
this is part of the relevance of especially the Guadalupez,
(19:14):
that she looked like the people to whom you know,
she she she appeared and spoke in in in their
in their language. And so let me take advantage and
then describe the image a little bit and anyone can
you know, just sort of look it up. But essentially it's,
you know, an indigenous woman who is dressed with a
(19:38):
blue bluish right sort of like bluish green mantle. So
the point of that of color, the significance of that
color rather in Aztec culture is that it was usually
used a reserved for royalty. Blues and purples are very
difficult colors to make dyes to make, and so that
really sort of like highlights her well divinity, right, and
(20:03):
like the royal importance and royal status. In addition, on
these stars in the veil, and there are plenty of
like documentaries about this, what you can see is constellations
for the night sky of that time that she appeared.
(20:24):
So yeah, so that's also something like that's very you
know again, right, like highlighting her celestial origins. She is
wearing this like rose colored tunic with floral designs, and
so I think that that is really a show, I guess,
of the significance of like, you know, fertility and life.
(20:45):
She also has a black sash around her waist, which
indicates maternity. So in an Aztec traditions, pregnant women would
wear a black sash to well to indicate that they're pregnant.
She is praying, so her hands are you know, sort
of like in a supplicant form, and she has a
(21:09):
very sort of like serene expression on her face right
to represent humility. She is also surrounded in rays of
light and with a crown above her head, if I'm
not mistaken, And this is because in the Book of Revelation,
or the Apocalypse as Catholics call it, there's a passage
(21:33):
describing a woman with a crown of stars, clothed in
the sun and the moon beneath her her feet, and
that's literally what the what the lupe looks like, and
so for Catholics, that is that represents the Virgin Mary.
And then right below the moon, the crescent moon is
(21:56):
an angel supporting her as as well. So all of
these features right make her very much significant to and
helped as tech people identify themselves with her. And it
is also believed by some that all of those symbols
(22:17):
would have been incredibly significant to the Aztec people, and
so they would have been able to recognize her as
a celestial messenger, but then also very similar to a
mother goddess in their religion whose name was a Nansen.
If I'm not, If I'm not mistaken, So yeah, so sorry,
(22:38):
I just wanted to nerd out a little bit about
that above that significance. Nelly. Did you were you aware
of like all of that symbolism? Were you aware of
all that symbolism.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Number one, I'm not all of them. I think you
did a great job describing the way it is. But
yes I was aware of some like I know, especially
you know, like like two Mexicans, I the Virgin of
wallal Lupe. We you know, we see her because she
and bodies that like you said, the feminine and maternal
(23:12):
attributes of the virgin symbol. But it is also we
also seen her representing like life, hope, and salvation. Those
are the things that are always stuck on my head
when I think about, you know, the vision the Wallalupe.
But I think you did a great job describing all
of those symbols.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, really appreciate it. Again
all things that I learned in church. So I guess
to one to wrap up, I guess I want to
ask two questions. Number one, what do you hope others,
especially young people will understand or take away from the
story of Necessa Guadalupe and also the devotion.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
So I would say, you know, for younger you know,
younger people, I think we have to continue that that
tradition of you know, of what of means? And I
think I will encourage all young people to research or
look a little bit more about so they can learn
(24:15):
a little bit more about and also just have you know,
like faith, And I would say every time when you
have faith on something, especially you know, like for me,
I have faith on they will see, you know, they
will see good things coming on their ways. So I
think that's that's what I would say, you know, in
(24:38):
in in products to your to answer your.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Question, thank you. And then do you know the song?
Speaker 4 (24:47):
The song?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, yes, yeah, a beautiful, beautiful song that summarizes the story. So, Nellie,
is there anything else that we should think about that
we should consider as we are commemorating this really special
day in Mexican culture and throughout the Americas.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Yeah, yeah, No, Like I said, I just encourage other
people to, you know, to learn a little bit more about,
you know, who is a vendela lupe and her beautiful
story and so maybe they can also understand, you know,
why we are so like Mexicans and Latin America are
so devoted to the viola lupe because I know that,
(25:43):
you know, I just had a personal story, but I
know that there's a lot of more a lot of
people around the world that they also have have had
any type of personal story and miracles, because again we're
so devoted and you know, she definitely means a lot. ALTA.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, awesome, thank you.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Do you all have any Yeah, I just I have
a visual arts background, and I just want to point
out how as you described, the Fierran de Guadalupe is
an iconic image. Of course, if you're in any Mexican
diaspora place, you're going to see the fierdanen Deguadalupe in
many different things. But a lot of particularly Chicano artists
(26:29):
who've worked in the last fifty plus years, have used,
have have have used the fiertanen Deguadalupe and taken their
own spin on it. There's one very famous example i'll
briefly describe. There's this Chicana artist, Landa Yolanda Lopez, and
she passed a few years ago, but in nineteen seventy
(26:52):
eight she did portraits of her grandmother, her mother, and herself.
The self portrait is the most famous. She's she's showing
herself in the pink dress, but she's in running shoes,
and she's running like like she's crossing a marathon finish line,
(27:12):
and and she's holding the the blue cloak with stars
kind of kind of like the way you see a
a a marathon runner like hold holding a cloak running through.
She shows her her her grandmother seated on the blue
cloak and also wearing a pink dress. And and then
(27:34):
she shows her her her mother wearing the pink dress.
It kind of looks looks more like a moomoo on her.
And then and then she seated at at at at
at a sewing machine sewing the the blue cloak with stars.
But yeah, that that in particular, especially uh, the Yolanda
Lopez self portrait is a is an iconic, uh Chicano
(27:56):
art masterpiece.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, just looked it up in there at The images
are absolutely beautiful. One thing that I did that I
meant to mention as well is the origin of the
name Guadalupe. Number one, there's a place in Espana that's
named Gugualalupe. So that was sort of like already in
the Spanish or lexicon, right and culture. But what some historians,
(28:27):
and this is not everyone that everyone agrees on this,
but part of some hypotheses include that the name may
come from and I can't speak now with y'all, but
I think it sounds like quatsal lupe. And if anyone
remembers from history class when we would study you know,
(28:47):
the Aztec culture and quetzal quarto, right, ketsal quaro means
the feathered serpent. He was one of the gods. And
so apparently this term quatsal Lupe means the woman who
steps on the snake. And so again like that that
name would have been significant to the people of the
(29:08):
time to sort of like recognize this woman, this mother
of God, of this you know, quote unquote one true religion,
essentially stepping on the religion of old, right and sort
of like defeating the religion of old and bringing people
to to Christianity. So that is one of the hypotheses.
(29:31):
And there are a couple of other words that some
historians think are you know, it may come from, but
they're all related to to this like woman you know
who essentially, like I guess it's like stepping over a
snake or or stepping over a beast or something like that.
So just f y, f yi, y'all, f yi.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
But that's the story that I knew. Also, you know,
the origin of the name, that's that's that's story that
I knew as well.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Okay, all right, So I'm so happy that I'm like
not off, and that my research is all good and
on point, and that my memory is also still still
somewhat intact. Well, thank you so very much, Nellie for
joining us today. I really appreciate you dedicating the time,
especially to speak about a personal belief right, something just
(30:21):
so so near and dear to you. And thank you
for sharing your family's story.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
No, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yep, so thank you all. That is all for our
episode today. Let's do a little bit of housekeeping. If
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the link in the show notes. We'll see you next
week as we discuss.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Scrubbing genealogy lines and genealogical annoyances.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
All right, everyone, thank you so much. Bye bye bye
bye bye
Brain rose here from the Rediscovering Latini that podcast serving
and supporting our Latin familias is important and rewarding work.
But the reality is not all service providers are the same.
While there are lots of amazing teams out there doing
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we know that there is still also lots of room
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(00:34):
tell you about LATINX Parenting and their professional partnerships. LATINX
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(00:58):
including MIT, Mihinte and the Institute of Child Technology, presenting workshops, trainings,
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(01:22):
org to learn how to bring LATINX parenting to your communidad.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Rediscovering Latinidad. This is
season five, episode thirteen, when we're going to be talking
about Senora Guadalupe. I'm Fausto, I'm out Word.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm Briar Rose, and I'm j Lisa.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And today we're also going to be joined by one
of my colleagues from Milwaukee, Nellie.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Nelli, Hi, everyone, And so we wanted to talk a
little bit about Guada Lupez. We're you know, progressing in
our podcast right and and and really talking about different
topics of importance to Latino Hispanic Latino American people and
Lesnuada Lupe is a huge deal, not just I mean
(02:24):
especially for the Mexican people, but also for the rest
of Latin America. She is also known as La Emperatrice,
the last Americas are Empress of the Americas. So a
little bit about her story. So for those of us
who are not Catholic, every once in a while, the
(02:48):
Virgin Mary, you know, does a cameo and appears at
a different in a different part of the world where
she comes in, you know, tells us about the message
of Jesus Christ and essentially shows us to his path,
and so for Nasasaguada Lupe. She appeared in particular in Mexico.
(03:09):
This was in the early fifteen hundreds, right after the
destruction of the Aztec Empire and other empires in what
is today Mexico. So on December ninth, fifteen thirty one,
there was an indigenous man named Tuan Diego who had
recently converted to Catholicism, and he was walking near a
(03:35):
hill that was called Depeyac, which is in Suda in Mexico,
Mexico City. He was on his way to church, actually,
and as he's walking by this hill, he all of
a sudden hears this beautiful music, birds singing, and really
sees sort of like this radiant light. And so he
is also hearing his name. Someone is calling him juang
(03:59):
Con Dieguito, Juanito Jo, and he of course is like
looking for this person who is calling him, and so
he comes upon this young woman. And this young woman
is surrounded by light, dressed in a blue mantle which
is adorned with stars. The woman speaks to Juan Diego
(04:22):
in his native Nawadl language and introduces herself and let's
lets him know that she is the Virgin Mary, the
Mother of God. She then asks Juan Diego to go
to the Bishop Fray Juan Dee Sumarraga, and requests that
the bishop build a shrine in her honor in the
(04:44):
city on top of the hill in Tepeyac. So j
Diego goes to the bishop. He's made to wait a
long time. He tells a bishop what this woman said
and who she said she was. The Bisho is kind
of like, all right, let me let me think about it,
dismisses him. Juan Diego goes back to the lady and says,
(05:07):
you know, I went to the bishop, but he, you know,
he sent me back. He didn't believe me. So she
actually appears a couple more times and sends him back
to the bishop. The bishop each time makes him wait
even longer than before. At one point, Juan Diego's a
little deflated, and he was living with an uncle, and
(05:29):
so his uncle actually was sick. So Juan Diego was
sort of trying to take a different path so as
not to see the lady again. But she appears to
him and so he lets her know, you know, my
uncle is sick, and she says, don't worry about it.
He's healed. Go back to the go back to the bishop.
(05:50):
The bishop says, finally says to him, you know, have
this lady provides some proof, so come back with with proof.
He goes back to the lady. I was a lady
what the bishop said. And she says, okay, great, So
you have a a thema. A thema is kind of
like a like a cloak. I guess I would say,
you know that was used to it was worn in
front and used to to carry things. And so she
(06:14):
says to him, go to the hill. Take your thema.
You're going to find some flowers up there. And this
is in December. Remember this. You're going to find some
flowers up there, Go pick them, put them in your thema,
and bring them to me. He does what he was instructed,
brings the cut flowers to the woman. The woman blesses
(06:35):
the flowers and then sends him to the bishop and
she says, you cannot show this to anyone, accept the bishop.
So he goes to the bishop. You know, people are
trying to sort of like bug him and you know,
get him to show what's in the thingma. He's like, no, no, no,
I can't until until I see the bishop. The bishop
comes out, He's like, okay, do you have you know,
(06:56):
do you have the proof? And Juan Diego says yes,
right here. So then he releases his stigma. Where the
flowers that roll out of the thema are Castilian roses,
so not roses that should be one in bloom in
December and two growing in that part of the world.
And what but most importantly on this thema is this
(07:20):
image of the woman that Juan Diego had seen. And
so the bishop Sumataga is you know, of course, like,
oh my god, it is the Virgin, you know who
who has sent you? He like falls to his knees
and has a shrine a chapel built to her on Tepeyac.
(07:41):
I will go ahead and pause there, Nellie, did I
get all of the details correctly? And is there anything
that I may have been missing? There?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
No, no, no, I think you got everything. And you
know that's a beautiful story and you got it your
own point.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay, thank you. And so one of the reasons why
I know this so for context, Nelia as well, right
as you know, I grew up Catholic. I grew up
in a neighborhood that for the most part was mostly Dominican,
but really there was sort of like everyone from from everywhere,
and our church would celebrate thea you know, the Santos
patronales from our countries, and in particular I always remember
(08:18):
Neguada Lupe and so at every Guadalupe mess around, you know,
December twelfth, they would have they would have like a
little play of of this story and and yeah, so
that's how like I learned about the story of Guada
up and why I was just kind of like, okay,
these are the details that that I that I recall.
(08:40):
So it was a shrine that was built in the
fifteen hundreds, but over time, right, it became you know,
sort of bigger, as more more people would go on
pilgrimage to visit the image. So the image right now,
there's a basilica, a ginormous, genormous church that was built
in that area, but that was only finished a little
(09:01):
bit less than a hundred years ago, if I'm not mistaken,
But the image is still preserved from fifteen thirty one.
It is the original one. The image is not a painting,
so there are no brushstrokes on the image either, which
is you know, something that you know a lot of
people are kind of like, well, how could someone have
(09:22):
put this image together? No one painted it. It's just
like imposed on the fabric. It is in like climate
controlled right to make sure they preserve it for generations.
But I also think, if I'm not mistaken, that like
it's not there. It hasn't suffered any damage in almost
four hundred, four hundred years, and a lot of Mexicans,
(09:47):
Mexican Americans are very devoted to to Nicta Senora de
ja la Lupe. I will talk a little bit more
also about sort of like the significance of the image,
why she looks the way that she does. But I
wanted to and then sort of like what why she Well, yes,
why she looks the way that she does, the significance
to the indigenous peoples of the time as well, But
(10:10):
I wanted to take a pause and really just sort
of like ask Nelly a couple of questions, right, like
can you remind or tell us a little bit about
how your devotion to necess and Lupe began and what
your personal experience and story to that to your devotion
you know, look like sure.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah, thank you, fausto. Yeah. I want to start by
saying that I was born and raised in Mexico, you know,
as well as my parents and all my family members.
So I want to say that my devotion started since,
I would say, since I was little, because my dad
he you know, he's gone now, but he was a
huge devotion, you know, devotion. He had a huge devotion
(10:54):
to our bipe and that was especially I think because
you know our lady of Wallaalupe, there's we have a
very religious and like a strong religious significance, and that
is because of some of I would say, my father
(11:15):
when they were expecting a long time ago, when they
were my mom was expecting my older sister, they were
told by the doctor that you know that my sister
well you know, she could have could have had some
medical problems. So they were naturally my sister was gonna
make it, you know, to get born. So my dad
and my mom I remember that, and this is a
(11:37):
story that they told me that they they went to
the church, they went to the to the cathedral in
Sanuis Potosi where I was born, and they kind of
asked the version of Wallalalupealupe like please let my you know,
my daughter get born and then we all bring her
to you and we will also take her to Mexico City.
(12:01):
So there was my sister, you know, you know, she's
she's now forty nine years old and her name is
Bala Lupe Mariaguala Lupez, so she I know that this.
I believe that's how that devotion started because they saw
a miracle, they asked for something, you know, they asked
for a miracle. And then you know, all of a sudden,
(12:21):
when my mom, when my sister was born, the doctor
not even knew how my sister made it. So I
think that's how the devotion started. Thenis I would say,
also it's a cultural thing that after you know that
not just that, but I also have had personal experiences
my own that I again, I we I asked the
(12:44):
Virgin Blavisiandola Lupez like you know, I mean, you know,
I'm going through these challenges and you know, I pray
and I ask her for you know, for a sign
or I asked her for a miracle and all of this,
you know, all of all of a sudden, I you know,
things that were challenging for me, then all of the things,
you know, they get straight. So I think that's and
(13:07):
I think it's just not my story, but I know
that a lot of Mexicans we are very very devoted
to Lavish and Nooela Lupe. And I think it's it's
it's you know, it's because of we see her, because
she was a proclaim. I think who protects and leads
you know, not just the Mexican but like like you
(13:27):
mentioned that you know a lot of people from Latin
and Latin America. So I think that's that's how my
devotion started and up until now. You know, every time
when I I'm in trouble, not in trouble, but I'm
going through challenges and I'm the first question that I
think of is the vision Nobela Lupe.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Thank you so much, Netlie for for sharing your your story,
in particular your your family's devotion. I remember, even growing
up as as a kid, like sometimes on the New
Use they would show people on pilgrimage to see Mexico
to Mexico City to see leveting and oftentimes like literally
(14:09):
there are people who who who walk on their knees
from their place of origin wherever they came from, like
literally to Mexico City to see the Virgin. Whether it's
because they're asking for something or in an act of thanksgiving?
Was that also your experience, Neali, have you seen that tour?
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Yes? Yes, and actually you know, my mom and my
dad when my sister turned fifty, because this is something
that you know that they asked the Virgin Davisendela Lupe
before my sister was born. So they also made a
promise to the Vicendola Lupe that they were going to
be taken for that not just to the Caral Cathedral,
but also to the Mexico City. So when my sisters,
(14:52):
my sister turned fifteen, they had an opportunity to take
my sister all the way down to Mexico City and
my mom, my dad, and my sister, not my sister,
I mean my sister went there, but my mom and
my dad they were actually doing the pilgrim underneath. Yes,
have you.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Ever made a pilgrimage to the Basilica?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Not to the.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Basilica and not yet, but I have done it in
Sanris Potosi. That was when I the first time I
came to the United States, and then I got the
opportunity to go back. So that was a promise that
that the next time that I will be in Mexico,
then I will go and see her. But that again,
that was a cathedral that we have, you know that
(15:40):
it's the catrio's name is also Viendupe. That's that's that's
his name. So that's why we a lot of you
know a lot of people go there also, you know,
around Sanris Potosi. They typically go there if they're not
able to go to the you know, to Mexico City
to see her. But I personally haven't have not done it,
(16:01):
but if I for sure, if I will have the opportunity,
I will definitely that's something that I will be doing.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Okay, And in what ways is her feast day celebrated
both in you know, like your family and and from
what you've experienced in Mexico itself.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Yeah, so, like you mentioned, it is celebrator on December twelfth,
so it's celebrated, you know, and again we celebrate that
in order in order in honor of the Virgin Mary
as well. And the celebration, I would say, you know,
for the Mexicans, we go to the church, like if
(16:41):
it's it's on December eleventh, before twelve am, we go
to a church, you know, a Catholic church, and that's
where we typically they hold a math and this is
like a culture, a tradition that we have in my
family that we always have to go to math and
and kind of pray and then you know, because we
(17:04):
have these faith and it's also be an identity with
her that that's why it's a tradition for us, and
that's how we celebrated.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No misad gadya. I think that's what they're called.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
Yeah, that's that's what. Yeah, it is, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
And I think it's called the Missa dee Gaya or
like I guess a Rooster's mass today. Yeah, right, because
it happens like literally, you know, so so early in
the morning. So I wonder as well, Nelly, what messages
or lessons from the story do you find our most
(17:42):
inspiring or relevant to today?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I would say, you know, I you know, I just
want to say, like it's very inspiring. I mean for me,
like especially because of my color and like brown, and
I know that you know, like like you just mentioned
a little bit ago, like the More the Virgin that
(18:10):
where she the appearance or where she was talking to
Fan Diego, it was at an indigenous area. So I
think that's very important for me because I I identify myself
with you know, with her and again, like I said,
with not just Mexicans but also people from Latin America.
(18:31):
So I think that that's the most inspiring for me,
Like I am very proud of knowing that, you know,
from all around the world that she picked that specific
place in Mexico, and I think that's that's something that
I'm very very proud and inspiring for me.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yes, I forgot to mention Thepez also known as lavidng Morena,
morena and more means I guess kind of like brownish.
I mean, I guess comes from more Ish, but but yeah,
it means sort of like darker, darker skin. And so
this is part of the relevance of especially the Guadalupez,
(19:14):
that she looked like the people to whom you know,
she she she appeared and spoke in in in their
in their language. And so let me take advantage and
then describe the image a little bit and anyone can
you know, just sort of look it up. But essentially it's,
you know, an indigenous woman who is dressed with a
(19:38):
blue bluish right sort of like bluish green mantle. So
the point of that of color, the significance of that
color rather in Aztec culture is that it was usually
used a reserved for royalty. Blues and purples are very
difficult colors to make dyes to make, and so that
really sort of like highlights her well divinity, right, and
(20:03):
like the royal importance and royal status. In addition, on
these stars in the veil, and there are plenty of
like documentaries about this, what you can see is constellations
for the night sky of that time that she appeared.
(20:24):
So yeah, so that's also something like that's very you
know again, right, like highlighting her celestial origins. She is
wearing this like rose colored tunic with floral designs, and
so I think that that is really a show, I guess,
of the significance of like, you know, fertility and life.
(20:45):
She also has a black sash around her waist, which
indicates maternity. So in an Aztec traditions, pregnant women would
wear a black sash to well to indicate that they're pregnant.
She is praying, so her hands are you know, sort
of like in a supplicant form, and she has a
(21:09):
very sort of like serene expression on her face right
to represent humility. She is also surrounded in rays of
light and with a crown above her head, if I'm
not mistaken, And this is because in the Book of Revelation,
or the Apocalypse as Catholics call it, there's a passage
(21:33):
describing a woman with a crown of stars, clothed in
the sun and the moon beneath her her feet, and
that's literally what the what the lupe looks like, and
so for Catholics, that is that represents the Virgin Mary.
And then right below the moon, the crescent moon is
(21:56):
an angel supporting her as as well. So all of
these features right make her very much significant to and
helped as tech people identify themselves with her. And it
is also believed by some that all of those symbols
(22:17):
would have been incredibly significant to the Aztec people, and
so they would have been able to recognize her as
a celestial messenger, but then also very similar to a
mother goddess in their religion whose name was a Nansen.
If I'm not, If I'm not mistaken, So yeah, so sorry,
(22:38):
I just wanted to nerd out a little bit about
that above that significance. Nelly. Did you were you aware
of like all of that symbolism? Were you aware of
all that symbolism.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Number one, I'm not all of them. I think you
did a great job describing the way it is. But
yes I was aware of some like I know, especially
you know, like like two Mexicans, I the Virgin of
wallal Lupe. We you know, we see her because she
and bodies that like you said, the feminine and maternal
(23:12):
attributes of the virgin symbol. But it is also we
also seen her representing like life, hope, and salvation. Those
are the things that are always stuck on my head
when I think about, you know, the vision the Wallalupe.
But I think you did a great job describing all
of those symbols.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, really appreciate it. Again
all things that I learned in church. So I guess
to one to wrap up, I guess I want to
ask two questions. Number one, what do you hope others,
especially young people will understand or take away from the
story of Necessa Guadalupe and also the devotion.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
So I would say, you know, for younger you know,
younger people, I think we have to continue that that
tradition of you know, of what of means? And I
think I will encourage all young people to research or
look a little bit more about so they can learn
(24:15):
a little bit more about and also just have you know,
like faith, And I would say every time when you
have faith on something, especially you know, like for me,
I have faith on they will see, you know, they
will see good things coming on their ways. So I
think that's that's what I would say, you know, in
(24:38):
in in products to your to answer your.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Question, thank you. And then do you know the song?
Speaker 4 (24:47):
The song?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, yes, yeah, a beautiful, beautiful song that summarizes the story. So, Nellie,
is there anything else that we should think about that
we should consider as we are commemorating this really special
day in Mexican culture and throughout the Americas.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Yeah, yeah, No, Like I said, I just encourage other
people to, you know, to learn a little bit more about,
you know, who is a vendela lupe and her beautiful
story and so maybe they can also understand, you know,
why we are so like Mexicans and Latin America are
so devoted to the viola lupe because I know that,
(25:43):
you know, I just had a personal story, but I
know that there's a lot of more a lot of
people around the world that they also have have had
any type of personal story and miracles, because again we're
so devoted and you know, she definitely means a lot. ALTA.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, awesome, thank you.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Do you all have any Yeah, I just I have
a visual arts background, and I just want to point
out how as you described, the Fierran de Guadalupe is
an iconic image. Of course, if you're in any Mexican
diaspora place, you're going to see the fierdanen Deguadalupe in
many different things. But a lot of particularly Chicano artists
(26:29):
who've worked in the last fifty plus years, have used,
have have have used the fiertanen Deguadalupe and taken their
own spin on it. There's one very famous example i'll
briefly describe. There's this Chicana artist, Landa Yolanda Lopez, and
she passed a few years ago, but in nineteen seventy
(26:52):
eight she did portraits of her grandmother, her mother, and herself.
The self portrait is the most famous. She's she's showing
herself in the pink dress, but she's in running shoes,
and she's running like like she's crossing a marathon finish line,
(27:12):
and and she's holding the the blue cloak with stars
kind of kind of like the way you see a
a a marathon runner like hold holding a cloak running through.
She shows her her her grandmother seated on the blue
cloak and also wearing a pink dress. And and then
(27:34):
she shows her her her mother wearing the pink dress.
It kind of looks looks more like a moomoo on her.
And then and then she seated at at at at
at a sewing machine sewing the the blue cloak with stars.
But yeah, that that in particular, especially uh, the Yolanda
Lopez self portrait is a is an iconic, uh Chicano
(27:56):
art masterpiece.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, just looked it up in there at The images
are absolutely beautiful. One thing that I did that I
meant to mention as well is the origin of the
name Guadalupe. Number one, there's a place in Espana that's
named Gugualalupe. So that was sort of like already in
the Spanish or lexicon, right and culture. But what some historians,
(28:27):
and this is not everyone that everyone agrees on this,
but part of some hypotheses include that the name may
come from and I can't speak now with y'all, but
I think it sounds like quatsal lupe. And if anyone
remembers from history class when we would study you know,
(28:47):
the Aztec culture and quetzal quarto, right, ketsal quaro means
the feathered serpent. He was one of the gods. And
so apparently this term quatsal Lupe means the woman who
steps on the snake. And so again like that that
name would have been significant to the people of the
(29:08):
time to sort of like recognize this woman, this mother
of God, of this you know, quote unquote one true religion,
essentially stepping on the religion of old, right and sort
of like defeating the religion of old and bringing people
to to Christianity. So that is one of the hypotheses.
(29:31):
And there are a couple of other words that some
historians think are you know, it may come from, but
they're all related to to this like woman you know
who essentially, like I guess it's like stepping over a
snake or or stepping over a beast or something like that.
So just f y, f yi, y'all, f yi.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
But that's the story that I knew. Also, you know,
the origin of the name, that's that's that's story that
I knew as well.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Okay, all right, So I'm so happy that I'm like
not off, and that my research is all good and
on point, and that my memory is also still still
somewhat intact. Well, thank you so very much, Nellie for
joining us today. I really appreciate you dedicating the time,
especially to speak about a personal belief right, something just
(30:21):
so so near and dear to you. And thank you
for sharing your family's story.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
No, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yep, so thank you all. That is all for our
episode today. Let's do a little bit of housekeeping. If
you like our podcast, please hit follow or subscribe. It
is different from downloading. If you enjoy our podcast, Rediscovering
Latini That, please leave us a five star rating and
(30:49):
a review or twelve stars. If you would like to
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You may also follow our social media at rediscovering Latini
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(31:12):
would like to become a Patreon subscriber, please click on
the link in the show notes. We'll see you next
week as we discuss.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Scrubbing genealogy lines and genealogical annoyances.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
All right, everyone, thank you so much. Bye bye bye
bye bye
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