Rediscovering Latinidad Season 6 Bonus Episode El Papa León XIV está invitado a la carne asada

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Surprise. Welcome back to Rediscovering Latinidad, the bonus episode of
season six. It's only fair that in a season that
has been full of breaking news and also all all
of these updates, that we address a really huge update,
the death of Pope Francis, the first Pope from the Americas,

(00:25):
and the election of Pope Leo the fourteenth, the second
Pope from the Americas. So let's introduce ourselves.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm Edward, I'm Fausto, I'm Briar Rose and Angelisa.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
There's two kinds of Latinos, those who are crazy about
the pope and those who don't care about the pope.
I myself belong to the first camp, even though I'm Jewish.
I find, like, you know, the papal election, all the
Vatican ritual just like really fascinating. How do we feel

(00:59):
about the Vatican and popes and all?

Speaker 3 (01:02):
We were all on Pope Watch, I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
So it felt like at the same time this was happening,
the NBA Draft was happening in the NFL Draft was happening,
and it was just draft season all around, super Bowl
all here.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
For Chicago won the papacy. Who who would have thought, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Who would have thought, yeah, that it would have been
so close to my current home in the Midwest. That
was Yeah, that was actually really cool. I mean, as
you know, a current atheist, former Catholic. Yeah, these these
things are still like really fascinating to me. Uh the

(01:45):
you know, the entire history of like why things happened
this way right, the politics, friend, what that are going
on behind the scenes and sometimes in front of the scenes.
So it is it is really fascinating to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
How do how do we feel about the pope having
been born in the United States?

Speaker 3 (02:08):
I mean, I mean that's cool.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
I do think it's interesting because I believe if I'm
not mistaken, please correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm
not up to date. But I think everyone was expecting,
like there was a contender that everyone thought was going
to get it.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
That yeah, exactly. Yeah, social media was convinced Cardinal Pizza
Bala was going to be pope.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
But he was never going to be I think that
I've heard.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
But but but yeah, it was funny, like so many
names were bad at about uh taggle I think from
from the Philippines and you know, the arch conservative er
no from Hungary. Just like all you know, all these
different possibilities, and we've just assumed that there would never
be a pope from the US, so surprise show.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, and apparently it seems like with the Conclaves whatever,
it's sometimes people it's like what do they call like
the dark horses, right, it's like the ones that people
that are not in anyone's radars whatsoever.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
Well, that was, for instance, he wasn't on anyone's radar.
That was not anticipated at all in twenty thirteen.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, and I think Benedict as well.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Right to some no, Benedict was a favorite.

Speaker 5 (03:23):
He was what they went in. We're like, this is
our guy. We just gotta wait until we can rally
the votes.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I guess I was surprised. I was surprised about Benedict
back in the day because John Paul was so loved,
you know, and I felt like Benedict was very divisive,
like once he was actually in the role. So I
was surprised, but maybe I was in the minority there.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, he certainly was a different kind of personality, Like
you know, we all grew up with Pope John Paul
two is like the Michael Jackson of Catholicism, you know,
Vega Mega groups. He's like super grandfather and warm and
then the stairline miles of any pope.

Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah for sure, you went everywhere. Yeah had Miles.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
And then we had Benedict, who was this more you know, reclusive,
dressed fancy, had a Nazi past, like just you know,
just just a real tone of different tone from from
from John Paul two. Yeah, So so I guess it
turned to Leo the fourteenth. First hot take of this episode.

(04:31):
I feel like we're starting with Pope Leo the fourteenth,
and there's so many different you know, things swirling about him.
There's so many facets to his identity. It kind of
reminds me of when Obama was first selected and people
could read like different things into his personality. It's like,
you know, oh, he's from Kansas, but he's also from Kenya,
you know, and there's just all different ways. And the

(04:53):
coverage of Pope Leo has been so intense about he's
from He's he's from Chicago, but he has roots from
New Orleans and is he from Haiti? Like the funny
thing is like he Poplio is such a gringo boomer
and yet he is not a gringo boomer, you know,
grew up in literal suburbs. You know, can fix a

(05:14):
pickup truck. He loves the Chicago White Sox. It's it's,
it's it's it's like Pope Tim Walls, right, but but
at the same time, it's it's really not because he's
you know, a dual citizen. Briar's ears perks up at that, like,
spends so much time in Peru, cares about Peru, literally

(05:35):
gave Peru a shout out when when he was first
on the balcony of Saint Peter's. It's it's it's funny
how the gringos are happy because he's a gringo, and
then everyone else is happy because he's not a gringo.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
It's saying that's the exact reason how they chose him,
because he ticks all of those boxes. He's an American,
but he's also Latino.

Speaker 5 (05:54):
And he's also spent I think thirteen years in Rome
in between all of this as well. Like he is
you know, international, and you can fit him into any
box that you want. So I think that was a
very deliberate choice for them to say, well, here we go, this.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Is the guy.

Speaker 5 (06:12):
He literally can take all the I think Cardinal Dolan
maybe a week or so before the conclave convened, he
was going, he was on the news and he was
talking about, oh, well, you know, we would love to
have kind of an amalgamation of our last three popes.
We would like to have you know, the kindness and
the warmth of Francis and also you know the austerity

(06:33):
of Benedict and also you know the outreach of John Paul.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Two.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
And there you go.

Speaker 5 (06:38):
You got your man, Frank and pope pretty much pretty much.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
If I'm not mistaken, it seems to me that Popolio
is actually on the younger side of what.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Is nine, Francis seventy six.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Bend seventy eight or something. Yeah, he was up there,
Yeah he was. He was really up I guess he's.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
Very very young for a pope. But John Paul was
very young. I think John Paul was fifty six, I
want to say, when he was like yeah, so that
was that. They've kind of moved away from that because
he was pope for what twenty six years, and they're like, well,
we don't want to give the keys to a man
for that long again.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
But it was on again.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
It shows how much faith they have in him to
elect someone so young, because that is a very big
push to say we have faith in you that you know,
you can live for another twenty twenty five years and
we trust you to be the leader for that amount
of time. So it is a strong statement to choose

(07:41):
someone so young.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, and you know, despite you know, being pope
being head of the Catholic Church being a spiritual position, right, Like,
I think there's also a lot of politics that play
into this, and so John Paul the Second being Polish, right,
and at the time, you know, with the USSR being around,

(08:07):
right and really sort of well, I guess there was
some persecution right of the of the church and of
religious people. Every time it seemed yeah, yeah, I think
that there was a that was hope for for the church,
at least at that time. With John Paul the Second,

(08:30):
they also I mean it was also was a surprise,
right because his predecessor, Don't Book jump Off the First
passed away after just a little bit over a month
of being in the papacy. So I think you know
this this maybe that's what it was, Julia, that you know,
we're just kind of like, oh, we elected a noble

(08:52):
one and they lasted a month swing all the other
way and like this one. But yeah, but I think
that is his background, and it looks like his political
involvement at the time also made a difference of tipping
things in his direction.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Well, since this is a genealogy podcast, let's let's dive
into Pope Leo's family tree. This has been very strange.
I've never seen real time genealogy play out. For first off,
the fact that it became breaking news. Second of all,
like within hours of his being elected, a bunch of
online sluice had pieced together like multiple generations of his tree.

(09:30):
That was scary, very unusual. Yeah, it really is scary.
And like, as somebody who appreciates online databases, I was
still like, this is really creepy that we can learn
about his family so easily.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
It's really creepy. And yet let's just say, who has
the best records for like genealogy is actually the Catholic Church.
So it's like, okay, well fixed, we're going to go
to the Catholic Church to talk about the pope and
we're going to go right there.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Very good point.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Reap what you sew true.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
So he's a native son of Chicago.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
M hm, native son of Chicago. Are both his parents
from Chicago?

Speaker 5 (10:12):
I think yes, his mom was also born in Chicago
and so was his dad.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, but then go back one generation and it literally
gets spicier. So hours after Popelia's election on May eighth,
we had Jari Honoree, a genealogist with the Historic New
Orleans Collection. Uh So, this dude in a Louisiana archive
was just watching on TV heard that the Pope's last

(10:39):
name was Prevost. He's like, hmm, that sounds French. I
wonder if you know there's a distant connection with France
or Louisiana. And then just given that all these resources
family search, ancestry, genie dot com, Wiki tree, like just
you could very easily piece together that the pope's maternal
grandparents were Creole Catholics of color from New Orleans seventh ward.

(11:03):
And now this this academic is concentrating. He's working with
the local archdiocese to dig into Popolio's roots, but everyone
else can dig into it as well. I myself did
some a little bit of obsessive digging. I'm gonna quickly
walk us through it, so do Yeah. So the Popolio's

(11:26):
maternal grandparents. They're Joseph Nerval. The last name's Martinez, but
apparently in Louisiana you say Martinez, okay, and Louise Bachier.
So what's interesting is towards the end of their life
in Chicago, they're listed as white, but from the nineteen
hundred census, going back, they're listed as either black or mulatto.

(11:51):
I love that the first American pope gets us into
like messy racial policy territory. It's like, here are chickens
come home to roost?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
So the story of the Americas?

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yes, story this story, story of the Americas. Yeah. So
these grandparents were both born in New Orleans, and it's
it seems like the family goes back multiple generations in
this creole New Orleans territory. However, we like the grandfather's
parents Jacques Martinez or Martinez and Mary Rosa Ramos.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Hmm.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
And I found I think it was on family search
the great grandfather's death certificate. He died Jacques Martinez died
eighteen ninety one in New Orleans. It says his parents
were born in Cuba. And then on May eighth, again
Genie dot Com, who knows that they're correct or not.
They claimed that the Ramos side also went back to Cuba.

(12:49):
It was like her great grandfather, the grandmother's great grandfather's
a long time back. First was born in Havana and
then died in New Orleans. And like the late seventeen hundreds,
that's since been a raced so who knows if the
line's being reinvestigated or stuff. But still the pope had
great grandparents of the last name Martinez and Ramos, which

(13:11):
is interesting. So going back to the grandfather, you have
the interesting thing where he growing up the eighteen seventy census,
then he marries. In the nineteen hundred census, he's listed
as black. Nineteen hundred he's in New Orleans. He's listed
as a cigar maker. Nineteen ten, he's listed in New Orleans.

(13:32):
He has a different last name, Joseph Martina. Who knows
if this is correct or not. And here's where dad,
He's listed as white and he's listed as an office clerk,
which makes me wonder if you know, is he trying
to be a more professional? Did that make him start
to pass? Who knows? And then by nineteen twenty he's
in Chicago, white and from then on the family identified

(13:55):
as white. The other fun detail is that this grandfather,
Joseph of All Martinez he shows up in documents, is
either born in Haiti but to parents from New Orleans
or one form says Santha Domingo. So I don't know
if this is you know, actual dr or if this

(14:16):
is like a san Do Domang like Haiti. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
I think brother mentioned in an interview the post brother John,
the middle brother, he said that they were born in Haiti,
the grandparents. So there is a bit of discrepancy between
what records are saying and what their own family history saying.
They don't know a ton so that could have just
been like, oh, you know they were from Haiti, and

(14:41):
you know, it just kind of kind of melts together,
Oh your great grandparents or your grandparents. So even they
are not one hundred percent clear on what exactly the
trajectory of the family line was before New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Interesting, Okay, I guess like a question for all of
us to answer is does this matter, Like do we
do we consider this pope to be quote unquote black?
Do you consider him to be Latino?

Speaker 5 (15:06):
Like Latino because he's got Peruvian citizenship? That alone, I
would always consider him, Okay, the years of his slepe
in Peru.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
He's a citizen, he's he's a naturalized Peruvian.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Naturalized Peruvian.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
He is Latino, Okay, he's yeah, by nationality, he is.

Speaker 5 (15:24):
He spent more time in Latin America than all of us,
twenty four years in Peru, so he definitely counts.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Okay, all right, so he's I would think so.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
But would we, you know, consider him black? I think
that is a different question, right, Like, it depends on
to the United States, right, to American culture one drop,
you know, probably and maybe although you know they are
also passing, so uh, you know, that has worked in
their in their in their favor. And I think to

(15:58):
any Latin American, you know, they be like, sure, if
you want to be black African descent, sure, you know,
we have the entire spectrum and cast system over there.
So so yeah, so it's a it's a really interesting
interesting question. But as you were saying earlier, Edward, right, like,

(16:19):
having this American pope checks you know, so so many boxes,
to the point that one of the fastest growing Catholic
regions in the world, you know, Latin America, right, is
now still freely connected to the institution of the church

(16:40):
and the papacy.

Speaker 5 (16:41):
Who Latino pops back to back look at us.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
I know, I'm just like, Okay, let's get somebody else
a chances, come on, it needs to be it needs
to go back to Italy.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
It's been so long, yeah, right, almost fifty years to
step up.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
They had it for five hundred years. Rome is in Italy, right,
I mean the Medican city is within the borders of Rome,
just within the borders of Italy.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
So but but but to go back with to what
Fessa was saying, like what what I have been thinking
mid the swirl of you know, aren't are they or
aren't they? Like all and and again. I love how
it shows how genealogy the records are so ambiguous and
sometimes it's hard to figure out what exactly is going on.
But it is cool that we have a pope who's

(17:32):
descended from enslaved Africans and this is the first time ever.
You know, some people were saying like, oh, there have
been popes from Africa, but you know they were Roman
citizens of.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, multiple people survived the Middle Passage so that this
pope could live, which is quite a thought.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Oh, he'd look at that. He's like our own little
African Harry.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Potter boy who lived.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
See now, had I written that story a science fiction
story a year ago, nobody would have believe it. Everyone
would have been like, Wow, that's really fantastic. House still
great imagination, and look at that. Life is full circle.
Life is life.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
And indeed, do we want to talk some more about
how how peruvian is is the pope super?

Speaker 5 (18:26):
Have you seen him with his hat and Islamas and
all of his gear with the people one hundred percent
at his Facebook feed? The joys of having a boomer
pope is that he's got Facebook pictures for like the
last decade and a half. It's just fantastic seeing him
at like quintaneras and like communion parties and singing felisaad

(18:47):
and at karaoke.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
It's one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (18:50):
He's he's so Peruvian than we are.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
I hadn't Facebook stocked the pontava yet. That's that's wild, glorious.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
I'm gonna have to do that now.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
It's like when you're you know, you're texting your cousins
back home and they're sending you pictures of oh yeah,
it was so and so's birthday party. It's literally that.
It feels like there he is and a horse in
the middle of nowhere. There he is at you know,
a rented out hall for somebody's baptism. It's he's got
the hat with all the stripes and the it's it's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
It's so he also used to be one of the
background players and now his main character.

Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah, there's with all three former popes. Amazing. I have
to go check that out.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yea, let's do it Facebook.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
In the group chat for us.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Sorry, actually, let's let's let let's put the link to
his Facebook page in the show notes that are.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
That feels although it's public orderline, it's it's been on
the news.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
We're just sharing respect.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
I don't know how I would feel if someone put
a link to something like my tree or my Facebook
or something our show notes. But I'm also not the pope.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
I didn't sign up for that life, so right, Yeah,
you're you're you're You're not the leader of a billion souls, so.

Speaker 4 (20:18):
Poor get your numbers, right, buddy, I know, right.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Speaking about social media, he's also a tweeterro and it's fascinating,
Like I didn't realize a cardinal could be the South
spoken like he was. He was reposting editorials criticizing the
Trump administration. Is he gonna have Twitter fingers during his papacy? Like?

Speaker 4 (20:41):
How's official page just went live today?

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Damn?

Speaker 4 (20:45):
He created a new account just for him.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
What's what's what's his handle?

Speaker 4 (20:49):
It's pontific It's the same. That's pretty okay. St Francis, excuse.

Speaker 5 (20:54):
Me, Paul Francis is, but they made that an archive
and now he is the new pontiff.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Actually, yeah, saw on on Instagram, right, pun efects is.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, it's the popes. That is the Pope's handle.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
It's all his now.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
It has thirved since since I think, yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
For about a month. And then he was like, I quit.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
In case, I'm sorry I missed. At the beginning of
the episode, I think you may I mentioned it. One
of the reasons this was swirling in the news with
Americans and the current administration is our current vice president
Jadvans did meet with Hope Francis, not like maybe what
a day or two before he died. Day before he died,

(21:44):
Hope Francis actually criticized policy and the next day he
was gone. I'm not saying the Vice president did anything
to him, but the joke was. The joke was for
the week between that something else an Indian Pakistan like,
there was just a destructive there was just destruction where

(22:05):
VI Jdi Evans went. Now, I just find that I
just find that interesting that there's this link between the
American Vice president seeing the Pope a day before he died,
and then the next pope being an American who was
criticized the administration.

Speaker 5 (22:21):
He's suspicious, it's mighty suspicious. I'm not saying there's causality,
but it did happen. There's proof, there are witnesses, there's
photographic evidence.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
The correlation is correlationing sure, timestamped.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
I mean, I just think that Pope Francis took a
look one look at JD. Van's and literally it was
just like, all right, y'all, peace, y'all are going to
need somebody with more energy to deal with this anti Christ.
And so then that's what happened. And so then when
the Pope went in to play the pope games, you know,

(23:02):
and quoting one off the island or the other. Yeah,
they had to settle on the American want to be like, oh,
get your boy, all right, go keep them in line,
because we're trying to keep world peace here, all right,
don't be the last hope.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
I did see a video today a reporter asked, like,
Pope Leosi was walking by any message for the United States,
and I just said many and then kept walking.

Speaker 5 (23:31):
So my brother said, yeah, we're going to get a
letter like Saint Paul to the Corinthians, and it's just
going to be like I have written list of all
of our sins.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
And.

Speaker 5 (23:43):
I would frame that we are gonna get We're gonna
get hammered when the time comes, and deservedly so, because
this country has a lot to fix.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
And that's the real reason why Solom and Golmora, you know,
we're actually burned. Everyone wants to say that it's because
of the gay sex, and I'm like, no, it's not
because of the butt sex. It says it later on
in the Bible that it was because they were too prightful,
but in the way of like not helping the poor,
right and not taking in the stranger or oh, I

(24:16):
think that's a synonym for immigrant and so so yeah,
so that's why Sonomamora were really burned. So yeah, I
think Pope Leo the fourteens is really going to burn
the US and in so many ways. And you know what,
I almost kind of do hope that he does get
what did you call it, Edward Twitter fingers yet, Yeah,

(24:38):
like three o'clock in the morning, right, like, yeah, wake
up to pray. Then you know, maybe maybe you sit
on some tears chair because whatever you say from that
chair right like makes you in whatever you say from
that chair is infatible because you're sitting in that chair.
So I think he just, you know, should just kind
of be like, you know, free either proletariat.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
See, we already have to deal with someone else doing
tweets at three am. I don't mind him.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
I know, let's go for the holy Man.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
The actual it is wild, though, Like should somebody be
that forthcoming on social media and the infallible at the
same time, That just seems really wrong.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
The rules, right, I mean, that is that infallible everywhere,
just when he's sitting in that chair, Okay, in Saint
Peter's chair, which wasn't the actual chair that Saint Peter's used,
but you know whatever.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
I didn't know the little qualifications about people and infallibility.
I thought it was just a blanket thing. That's that's
that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Oh yeah, and it just hasn't been something from the
beginning either. This was something that came out of the
First Vatican Council in the in eighteen sixty nine, and
that is a doctrine of people infallibility that when the
Pope speaks extatada which literally means from the chair of

(26:09):
Saint Peter, on anything that matters, on any matters of
faith or morals, he is infallible. H he is making
no mistakes.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Lay pastor Fausto teaching us. So so okay, I got
to ask you. I'm gonna ask in general, like this
is very presumptuous, but hey, do do we mirror four podcasters?
How how do we feel about the direction of the
Roman Catholic Church under Leo's leadership? Like are we optimistic

(26:41):
or so far so good?

Speaker 5 (26:43):
I would say, this is honestly probably one of the
better choices they could have made. So as far as
that statement goes, like just picking an American and you know,
Trump was always like, oh, you know, the Pope doesn't
know the US and what does he know about American culture?
And you don't have to listen to him, like, well,
now you can't use that excuse anymore. And Jadis is

(27:04):
not the all, you know, the highest elected official of
American politics and the expert on Catholicism. You can't go
around saying well, we know better, because now you've got competition.
So I think this was a very intentional statement, just
an intentional choice that they made, and I think it's
the probab in terms of American politics. I know, you know,

(27:27):
America is not the center of the world, but in
terms of our situation, I think this is probably the
best choice they could have made in terms of tackling
that kind of alt right, you know, scary conservative noise
on the other side of the aisle.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
This is even though it's a religious position, it is
also sort of like a political position, right, especially on
the world stage. So I would hope that he is leading,
that he continues like took Francis to lead the church,

(28:06):
you know, so sort of like more towards I think
it's called discipleship, right, so like really following what is
in the gospels and what Jesus you know, said, and
the beatitudes, and really taking care of the poor and
the sick and the immigrant right, instead of just sticking
too like dogma and Catechism. Right. I think that if

(28:30):
he continues down that path, and I think he will
ensure the survival of the of the church at least
for you know, one more one more generation.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yeah, he's a missionary first and foremost, and that was
something that he mentioned in his first speech to the public,
that you know, we must continue our missionary work and
helping the poor and aiding those you know who we
can help in any way possible. So I think again,
this is a very target and a very well thought

(29:02):
out choice that they made in the type of man
that they chose for this position.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
So I have to ask you, how did your mom,
because your mom you said your mom is observing Catholic,
how happy was she with the new pope? My dad
was thrilled.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
I mean, I think my mother was also very happy.
We haven't really been able to speak much about it
in depth, so I will have to report back on that.
But you know, I think she was really excited, as
many Catholics and other non Catholics, you know, sort of

(29:34):
were I do you.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Think my dad was a little more excited about Francis,
but he was pretty happy about this guy too, So I.

Speaker 5 (29:43):
Fear that they were going to go really conservative. That
was a kind of concern that a lot of people
had that, you know, Francis was so to the left,
and everyone was like, oh, is the pendulum going to swing?
Are they going to be reactionary and try to go
someone super you know, Shaw was getting thrown around and
Burke was getting thrown around, like a lot of scary names.
I don't think it was ever a possibility, but I
think people are so happy for this because there was

(30:05):
that fear in the back of their minds of my god,
what if they choose, like, you know, someone really regressive
to kind of toe the line after a lot of
people were kind of afraid of all of the you know,
progressive movements from Francis, you.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Know, and I agree, And also I mean, yes, Francis
compared to previous popes, absolutely the most progressive. Taking out
of context, I mean, if you heard what Francis said
about certain things, they were pretty in line with certain policies.
He just he's not never going to condone and say abortions, okay, right,

(30:41):
but he will say you should have compassion for those
who have to make that choice. He's not going to say,
you know, this is a medical health thing that everyone's
entitled to. He's never going to say that Catholic Church
will never take that stand like they will die on that.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
They will not.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
But just him saying there's room for compassion choices you
don't agree with, whether it's homosexuality, abortion, et cetera, Like leave.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Room for the compassion. I think that's the.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Most christ Like thing we've heard, you know, like that's
the whole instead of just condemning everybody.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
Now, yeah, I disagree on the abortion thing because the
abortion thing actually was it didn't become a big deal
in the Catholic Church until earth like mid twentieth century.
So I mean, you know, I'm sure they had an opinion.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Wait, so so like a Vatican two thing or you don't.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Know that it necessarily came out of Vatican too, What
was that, Lisa?

Speaker 4 (31:33):
More like a Roe v. Wade thing?

Speaker 5 (31:35):
Because you know, if you talk about it in terms
of human history, it's only in the last fifty years
ish that people are you know, people were used to
children dying. You know, you would have twelve kids in
the hope that you know, maybe five will survive and
make it to adulthood. So it wasn't like this, oh
my god, every single baby you have to make sure.
It's like, you know, you have a couple of spares,

(31:55):
and as long as you you know, your wak doesn't die,
you can always have some more. So, honestly, that's really
how it shifted so much like the twentieth century has
worked how we view a lot of things where the
norm for the majority of human history has been the
complete opposite. You know, oh, still born. Okay, well sorry,
but don't worry. Your wife is still alive. You can

(32:16):
go and have another one in a year. So it
was not really a big deal in the way that
we view it from like our modern perspective.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
My aunt, one of my mom's older sisters, she rests
in peace, told me, and I think she was born
in the thirties when she started having kids, I think
in her teenage years, and so she said that initially
the church said, you know, have you know, as many
kids as possible. Then at one point she says that

(32:46):
the message changed to only have as many kids as
you can educate. And she said that nuns would walk
around in the countryside handing out contraception contraceptive so yeah, exactly.
So I literally was just like, what is going on?
So yeah, So like a lot of the things that

(33:06):
we think are like entrenched in tradition and things that
are dogmatic supposedly like I guess, the persecution of you know,
gay and queer people and you know, abortion, these things
are actually pretty sort of like modern inventions and modern
concerns of the church.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
To show a similar I guess growth, perhaps with with
with Popolio, they dug up a twenty twelve interview where
he said, quote, Western mass media is extraordinarily effective and
fostering within the general public enormous sympathy for beliefs and
practices that are at odds with gospel, for example, abortion,
homosexual lifestyle, euthanasia. And he particularly pointed out how alternative

(33:53):
families composed of same sex partners and their adopted children
are so benignly and sympathetically portrayed and tell television, schools
and cinema today. Then in twenty sixteen he opposed the
teaching of gender and sexuality improve in schools. Then in
twenty twenty three, when he became a cardinal Catholic, news
service asked if he changed his mind, and he didn't

(34:16):
say yes, but he pointed out how Pope Francis quote
made it very clear that he doesn't want people to
be excluded simply on the basis of choices that they make,
whether it be lifestyle, work, way to dress, or whatever.
But you know who who knows. When he was asked
about women leading services, he said, quote, clericalizing women doesn't

(34:39):
necessarily solve a problem. It might make a new problem.
So I think there's going to be moments where he's
going to say some things, and it's gonna much like
how Francis would occasionally like reveal it. He's a practicing
Catholic with conservative views, and I think it's going to
jar us a little bit once that happens.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
So to take your point right there first, to please
correct me if I'm wrong, because you've may no more
background on this. But I've spoken to people who are Christian,
like observ and born again, like they read this for fun,
you know, the whole thing, and they've told me that
if they ever walk into a church and a woman
is leading, no matter the denomination, they will walk out

(35:19):
because their understanding of the Bible is that the one
who is teaching the sermon and the one who is
leading the church is supposed to be emulating Christ, who
is a man. Well, if they see something that's directly
against that, because Jesus wasn't a woman, they were like,
well this is this is heretical that we're out?

Speaker 4 (35:35):
Goodbye?

Speaker 2 (35:36):
So I could be wrong, but I have spoken a
born again Christians like Baptist Lutherans, and that's pretty consistent
across the board, I imagine.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
No, I would put.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Money on the fact the Catholics so the same way.
So I'm not surprised Leo said that at all.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
No, neither neither am I. And let's just make it
clear that if you want to define yourself with or Christian, right,
is because you want to be like Jesus Christ. And
how are you like Jesus Christ? I guess you read
about how he acted and what he said, right, And
though what he said the direct quote are supposedly in

(36:17):
the Gospels, not the rest of the letters of Paul,
who was a misogynoust right, So nowhere in you know,
in the Gospels does Jesus sort of say that, you know,
women shouldn't be in his discipleship. I think he actually
had a lot of women. I mean they maybe they
weren't one of the tub apostles or again, right, like

(36:39):
these are stories that were handed down. Perhaps there were
more than tuble apostles, perhaps one or two of them
were you know, we're actually we're actually women. So there
is a lot of evidence that there he had a
lot of women followers, right. There is a lot of
evidence as well that there could have been women that

(37:00):
were leading churches as well, because again, this whole male
only thing sort of happened once the church wasn't persecuted
anymore and actually became the institution of the of the state.
And so again I'm not saying that from its inception,
like Christianity was completely egalitarian, but yeah, Jesus doesn't say that, right.

(37:27):
So again, right, like one of the things, so we
have that misconception, right. One of the mixedconceptions as well
is Mary Magdalene being a prostitute. Like literally, nowhere in
the Bibles does it say the Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. Unfortunately,
there was a story about yeah, yeah, the sex worker

(37:47):
who was getting stoned, and then like the next paragraph,
you know, literally it's a completely completely different story but
starts talking you know about Mary Magdalene, you know then
or reader of people who were tired, you know, put
essentially put the you know, mistogynists put those together, you know,
kind of like, oh, yeah, she was so she actually

(38:10):
you know, she was most prospected. Right to use the
word I think they use in the Bible right now,
right exactly, so like it's really it's it's really sort
of like fascinating. I don't think the church is going
to welcome, you know, women into the clergy any time soon.

(38:31):
I think in some senses kind of none, sort of
like serve.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
Capacities in other you know, parishes that are very small
or you know, where the priest is not there permanently.
I mean it's been known to happen, not super common,
but noneys have been deaconized. So I think when people
talk about women in more leadership roles, I think that's
probably like the ceiling for most people when they think
about women leadership, like you know, deaconized nuns and having

(38:59):
more control. Oliver Parish is more localized rather than the
top top dog.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
And then again, right, like the first Jesus' first miracle,
according to the Gospel of John Right was at a party.
First of all, he converted wine into water, I mean
water into wine. And it was at his mother's behest
as well, right, So she was the one who asked
him like, hey, like, these people don't have wine. Can
you do something about this?

Speaker 4 (39:26):
Literally?

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Right?

Speaker 4 (39:27):
And so he was just like, are like, go go
show show the company.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Exactly, go show the company what you can do. He
was like, I'm not ready yet, and she was just like,
don't worry, honey, child, and she literally just turns to
the servants and says, do whatever he asked you to do.
So again, right, like women clearly, if they weren't supposed
to be around him, he I think clearly would have
said no women around me. But anyway, again right, But

(39:55):
even the Gospels were written way after he died, so
even though they say that's what they said, and then
three of them are based off of one of them,
and then one of them is very fantastical to the
point that there was debate about whether or not to
even include it in the cannon.

Speaker 5 (40:10):
And even that you know, chose those are what we're
chosen to be included in the canon.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
There are how many.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
Books that were not and there were you know, seen
as apocryphal, and we cannot include those, So who knows
there could have been all kinds of things that we're
just unaware of.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
So I mean there was that. I guess Maybe I
don't know, Edward how you want to end it. But
there's that quote from Cardinal Francis George, who was at
one point Archbishop of Chicago. He said that the only
way the Catholic Church would have an American pope is
if the United States goes into a decline as a

(40:45):
world's power, which I think we're pretty prophetic prophetic words,
so yes, buckle up. I guess has survived the downfall dozens,
if not hundreds of civilizations by now.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
The church without always.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, two thousand years ago and strong. We can close
by addressing the late Pope Francis, any any thoughts on
him as we lay him to rest well.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
He seems to have been just like a really good person,
and I do really hope that he rests in peace.
He really I think he did a lot to make
to help people feel empathy for others. Again, in a
world one that's materialistic, right, but that can also literally

(41:37):
be very dogmatic about well the way that we behave right,
And so I think he's shining a light on that
compassion for LGBTQ people, right, but also for the poor,
the meek, you know, those who are experiencing genocide as well, right,
Like he really that is the point of a megaphone,

(42:00):
right of that size, is really to be able to
magnify and bring attention to certain issues and really sort
of like ask for for compassion. And remember that there
are humans right like in the middle of in the
middle of all of this. And you know, one of
the things that again that the Gospels say that Jesus said, right,

(42:21):
is that Jesus is in those people, right who are
like on the street, on the ones who are going hungry,
the ones who don't have you know, any clothing. So
anything that we do for for those who are quote
unquote less fortunate, right, we are we are doing to Jesus.
And I think that is a very important message for

(42:43):
the Church, for Christianity, for this pope in particular right
to carry on, especially in the face of as we
were speaking a little bit earlier, there seems to be
this like, right word, uh, turn towards well fascism right
in in the United States. So so I hope that
he would would help to soften some some hearts. And

(43:08):
so I really thank hope Francis for for really sort
of like building the way right and and being that
what's that word pontiffects, you know between the like the
twentieth right and and the twenty first century. And yes,
I know, you know Pope Paul, but Paul second did

(43:29):
die in the twenty first century, and we had you know, Benedict.
But I think Francis was outspoken in a really a
really different way. So may he rest in peace.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
And I said it better myself. I'll always have a
soft for friends.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Here's do you check?

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yes, I know, right, thank you, and I really hope
we have more Jesuit hopes and more Jesuit.

Speaker 4 (43:51):
That was such a shock.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
I remember that day. I was sitting at my desk
at work and we had we were all like watching
CNN on our on our computers, and one of my coworkers.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
Like, oh my god, they chose a Jesuit.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
We were like, that was such a shock to us,
Like it really is that that was that was a
huge statement at that time, and I think it's like
an equal one for now that oh my god, they
chose an American.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
It was that same moment of can you believe this?
This is this is incredible.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
I did mean to ask because Leo's the first Augustinian
does that does does that mean anything to anyone? The
Order of Augustine, in particular.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
Augustine was a very more Augustine. You don't call him Augustine.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
He's Augustine, but the followers are Augustinian. But yeah, he's
the one that came up with original sin fun fact
and they he lived a very sinful life until he
was like thirty, and then suddenly he found the way and.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
He was I forget now.

Speaker 5 (44:54):
But as I was telling you guys before, one of
my my brother's godbrother that grew up with us, he's
an Augustinian friar, so we know a lot about the Augustinians.
So he was like super hype when when this news
came out. Yeah, he lived a very sinful life, was
running around with women, had a child out of wedlock,
was a drinker, was this and that. Very kind of

(45:17):
a degenerate almost, and then one day he just kind
of saw the light and he was He was created
a bishop on like his first day at church, Like
it was just it all kind of happened all at
once with him. It really was incredible. If you it's
quite interesting.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
Prayers to God would be like, oh God, you know,
save me from all these slices, but not yet, but
not yet, from sin but not yet, but not yet time.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
And then finally it was like, all right, your time
is up. And that was it.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
It was like a light bulb going off and suddenly
he was he was.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
Right. He did whatever he needed to do, so like
in what in his youth, but then after yeah, and
then after he was a little older, he was probably like,
all right, I should probably start thinking about my salvation
now and make everybody else feel bad for their sins. Please.
Oh sorry, I wasn't supposed to go down that.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
Road, It's the truth. Though he did it.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, Poplio did not follow in that route. He entered
the seminary immediately after middle school, which is impressive. And
apparently when when he was a kid, like his other
kids would be like shooting, his brothers would be shooting
guns and stuff, and he would be play acting the mass.
So he was very focused on.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Very focused, and I wonder how he became an Augustinian.
But just to sort of like flesh out a little
bit more Chilisa, right, like key characteristics of Augustinian something
like order. It's like community life and intellectual and pastoral focus,
social justice and service and you know, leading a contemplative

(47:08):
but active ministry. So I think in some senses maybe
kind of like Francis right, and that that desire to serve. Yeah,
I would.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Say any more thoughts before we close our little conclave.
We'll see what our little supposed Latino Pope does. He
is a Latino. I'm sorry, what our what our brave
Peruvian brother in the Vatican to do?

Speaker 5 (47:33):
As send you guys have all the pictures right now,
got some, even me and my cousins, heaven sending them down.
Stop there's ones with him and kids dabbing like he's
just it's it's it's it's awesome.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
This is not like Pope Benedict.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
This is why with his five PhDs or whatever the
heck he's God.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
This guy's only got one right, yeah, six languages.

Speaker 5 (47:57):
Like, yeah, Benedict was an over achiever. This guy he
was out in the trenches with the people.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Yeah, time to have fun.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
There you go, boom or Pope this fall on NBC. Wow,
Well I guess with that, Thank you for listening to
this bonus episode about our fun Paopal electoral season, and
we will see you for season seven.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Enjoy summer. Bye,

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