January 13, 2025 • 28 mins
Open communication is essential for helping children process their fears and feelings regarding crises like the LA wildfires. Parents should approach conversations with empathy, reinforcing feelings of safety and community support while recognizing their own emotional well-being.
Today, I chatted with Dr. Tamara Soles to get some advice for how to speak to kids that were impacted by the fires or those that are hearing about it.
• Importance of initiating conversations about crises with children
• Assessing children's current understanding of events
• Fostering empathy through reflective questioning
• Addressing children's fears by discussing safety measures
• Balancing parental emotions with children's emotional needs
• Engaging in community service to help children process feelings
• Recognizing signs of trauma in children’s behavior
• Establishing routines to provide normalcy
• Prioritizing self-care for parents during challenging times
Here is a growing directory of 500+ providers offering pro bono services for individuals impacted by the Los Angeles wildfires:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uAMVz8TQMzShQeuEA6kmOP0jyRN7qe1Iiqb6JOLTPqg/edit?gid=303232729#gid=303232729
Helpful article in the LA Times:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-01-11/kids-wildfire-losses-experts-eaton-palisades-fire
Listen to my conversation with research Dr. Susan King (from McGill University) to learn how natural disasters can impact expecting moms and their babies (and how to mitigate the stress).
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/curious-neuron-with-dr-cindy-hovington/id1440533170?i=1000502669619
Search for a past podcast episode or guest:
https://curiousneuron.com/podcast/
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https://tremendous-hustler-7333.kit.com/c6701d059a
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Kirsten On
Podcast.
My name is Cindy and I am yourhost, and today we are doing
something a little bit differentWith everything that's going on
in LA and the fires.
I think that it's important forus to cover that and give
everybody some guidance in termsof how to speak to your child
about it, whether they were partof it, whether they have a
friend that was part of it, orwhether they're like us and far
away from it, but still seeingit on the news or hearing about
(00:23):
it with their friends, and soI'm really grateful that Dr
Tamara Soles has joined me today.
Tamara, welcome again to theCuresNorm podcast.
Thank you for having me, Cindy.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I wish it was under different circumstances.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Exactly.
I'm really grateful that youwere okay with meeting with me
at the last minute, because I'mgetting messages from parents
and I want to make sure thatthey have the right me at the
last minute, because I'm gettingmessages from parents and I
want to make sure that they havethe right, not scripts, but
sort of guidance in terms of theconversations to have.
So we're going to try to keepit short today, so that you know
, but covering everything at thesame time.
So how about we begin with?
You know, being here inMontreal, what I'm hearing is
(00:59):
you know kids are seeing it onthe news, you know we're hearing
about they're hearing about itat school, and I think what's
important is there are differentperspectives to this.
So one of my kids, one of theirquestions, was fire is really
dangerous and it's scary toimagine just the idea of your
house and town and city burningdown.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So I've tried to be mindful in terms of the images
that they're seeing, becausesome of them, to be honest,
stuck with me going to bed and,just you know, feeling sad and
it's a scary thing.
So how do we begin to talkabout to our kids?
You know, as parents, we wantto protect our kids from hearing
things that they can't unhearor unsee, that may impact them,
you know, short-term orlong-term.
And yet, recognizing that manyof our kids are of an age where
they may be exposed toinformation in other ways, be it
(01:59):
from friends or at theschoolyard or on the internet,
and so we want to be the driversof those conversations, we want
to make sure that our childrenhave opportunity to process what
they're hearing andexperiencing within the comfort
of our relationship, and so wecan do that by starting the
(02:20):
conversations Now.
If you have a very young child,let's say you're really distant
from LA and you have a veryyoung child who is unlikely to
be exposed in any way to this,we don't have to introduce that
to them, but for other children,it's a good place to start with
a question of I know there'sbeen a lot on the news about
(02:41):
what's happening in Californiaand the fires and I'm wondering
what you've heard.
So starting there before wedive in, just to assess what
they know and what they feelabout what they've heard so far,
that's a good place to start.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I like that because, again, you're not putting
certain words in their mouth orquestions that they might not
have had but they'd neverthought of.
But the scary thing, it couldbecome a scary thing for a child
.
So I think I agree with you inthe sense that if your child is
too young, we don't have tobring that into their awareness.
You know, so I understand that.
You know.
I wonder if there are childrenout there also who might hear
(03:18):
about it and you're talkingabout it in your house and then
you feel that there's no empathyor they're like it's not
affecting me, so who cares?
Is that also a conversation weshould have with our child in
terms of well, or are we makingit too much of a big thing if
that happens?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's a great question, cindy, you know.
I think one of the potentialbenefits of exposing children to
a curated amount of informationabout world events is that it
can develop empathy andcompassion, and so what we do
with that, though, is critical.
So how we approach thatsituation, there may be children
(03:57):
who, on the surface, appear tobe unsympathetic about it, which
may be their ownself-protective response to so
we want to be careful not tojust be sort of horrified, as a
parent, by what seems like alack of empathy, and just dive
in, but rather use reallyreflective questions like what
do you think it would be like tobe this person?
(04:19):
Or imagine, can you imaginewhat it feels like to be in this
situation right now, where yourschool is burned down or you're
not sure if your friends areokay?
These are big questions, bigsituations, but asking
reflective questions, or evenasking questions about what
(04:42):
others might feel in thatsituation how do you think
so-and-so would feel it's reallyjust helping to shift that
perspective and to develop thatempathy and compassion.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, and I do think it is a good time to talk about
that and help them develop thoseskills, because some young kids
might not have that developedyet.
And again, it's so far away,it's not happening to me, it's
not happening in my home and mycity.
So it's easy to feel thatdisconnect.
And I just want to quickly goback to the images Again.
The fire, the image of a fire,I think again, thinking about
(05:14):
maybe a hurricane or tornado,we're like that can't happen
here.
But a fire is something thatmany kids can fear and I know
with my kids as well it was likecan this happen to us?
Can our home burn down?
And you know what would happento all my things?
And so they did question that.
Would you know if maybe a childnow had a nightmare or you know
(05:37):
anything?
But in terms of fearing thefire, what can we do with a
child?
You know how do we approachthem if they have that new fear
now and we want to help them.
Kind of work on that, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think we want to acknowledge the elements of
control that we have.
That is the key.
So, of course, unfortunately, afire is a potential possibility
for anyone.
So we can start with the thingsthat we do that keep us safe.
And one of the most importantthings you can do in
conversation with your childabout this is to reassure them
(06:08):
that you've got this, that asparents, this is our
responsibility.
It's our job to do everythingwe can to keep you safe, so that
it's very clear that this isn'ta worry that they need to hold
on their own.
That that's our job.
So that's something we need tomake explicit always.
But then we can talk abouthere's the things that we do to
(06:31):
keep our house safe.
Right, we have a fire blanket,we have fire extinguishers, we
have a safety plan of what wewould do and, of course,
depending on the ages of yourchildren, you can involve them
in that safety planning.
You can tell them that you'velooked at the government
recommendations about how tokeep your home fire safe.
(06:52):
So engaging them in theconcrete things that you're
doing to keep everyone safe iskey, while also reminding them
that this is very unlikely, butalso reminding them that this is
very unlikely and sometimes oneof the challenges, especially
for younger children.
When they see things on thenews, it's hard for them to
understand that this may bedevastating, but also isolated,
(07:16):
and it feels like it could begeneralized and happen at any
moment.
And so being able to say, yes,we take all of these steps to be
prepared and I've got you, thisis my job to keep you safe.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But also, we live in a place where this is why this
is less likely and we do what wecan, but we're also grateful to
be living somewhere that's verysafe like starting off with
that element of control, and Ithink it's a good reminder for
us parents too, right, in termsof any situation that happens,
to kind of come back to it andtake a moment to say, okay,
(07:49):
what's under control?
You know, in this situation andI love that.
So let's move on towards thosewho are affected and in the area
.
One question you know that aparent was asking is you know if
they're close to the area andactually fearful right now of
this extending to their city andtheir home, and they don't want
to?
Do you hide the emotion and theworry from your child?
(08:09):
You don't want to create asense of urgency, but you are
literally worried for your home,and so how much do we hide from
our child and I think thatwould extend into somebody who
was affected right now as wellDo you hide the sadness?
Do you try to be resilient andshow them that we're strong?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, it's such a tight rope, I think, as a parent
(08:47):
, because we want to both modelhow we navigate our emotions
that are real and valid, whilealso holding it together enough
that our children sees thattheir caregivers, their
protectors, are still in control, and so allowing them to see
your sadness is perfectly okay,understandable, even helpful at
times.
And expressing that and alsogrounding that in I am sad.
I'm sad for all the myriadreasons we would be sad in this
situation, but also I'm grateful.
(09:08):
I'm grateful that we're safe,I'm grateful that you're okay.
So, having the duality of it, itreally is, as I said, a
tightrope, because if we onlysay you know what, thank
goodness, we're safe, we're okay, it's just stuff right, we can
invalidate the feelings of Ijust lost the most important toy
(09:31):
I had or my home, my safe haven.
So it's important not to veerinto that toxic positivity and
negate whatever feelings theymay have, because that sadness
is real, that fear is real andunderstandable.
Real, that fear is real andunderstandable.
So, validating that, modelinghow we deal with it and still
(09:53):
also showing gratitude for thethings that matter to us most is
, I think, where we can try tofind that balance and that
duality is something that weexperience as well as somebody
who's not part of it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
but we might have friends or people that are
experiencing this, while alsobeing grateful that we're okay
and that we're not in that area.
It's hard to balance that,because then you feel the guilt
of thank goodness we're okay,but then I know people that are
going through this.
Even as an adult, that dualityis really hard.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, it is.
It's making me tear up rightnow.
As you know, I lived in LA formany years.
We have many friends andcolleagues and people we care
for very deeply who are impactedsignificantly right now in LA
and it is hard.
It's hard because, of course,we also feel a sense of
(10:45):
helplessness in a way, but it'salso a reminder of how
connection and compassion serveus all.
So when we can reach out tofriends and say listen, I'm not
expecting you to respond to meright now, I'm just wanting you
to know that you're in mythoughts and maybe here's
(11:06):
something that I've done.
I've donated to thisorganization or I've done
something to show my support.
It's really, really hard.
That duality is part of life,right?
This dialectic element of lifeis that two things can be true
at once, and it is the humancondition of wrestling with
(11:27):
multiple feelings.
And I think in the same way,when we're trying to help our
children through difficultsituations, it can be helpful to
ground them in solutions, andsometimes the solutions can be
things that we can do todirectly support a catastrophe,
a crisis.
Sometimes it's okay.
Here's what we can do for thatcommunity.
(11:49):
It's limited, but what can wedo in our own as well.
So really just bringing it backto all the ways that we can
contribute to making our world,to think of, you know, any
catastrophe, like you said, oreven mourning somebody, a
grandparent or a family member,where you're, at the same time,
(12:16):
grateful for all the momentsthat you had, while you're also
sad that they're.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I just feel that there's so many moments that
that duality comes back.
So I just want to put like aslight emphasis on it, because
it's really an important one forparents to be okay with that
ourselves and to allow our childto experience that duality.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yes exactly.
Yeah, one of the things I justalso wanted to mention is
obviously the only way that wecan care for our children and be
able to tolerate thatdiscomfort and duality is being
able to tolerate it in ourselvesand care for ourselves too.
So, especially in the middleall of this, just really think
(12:52):
about what you're doing to carefor yourself.
How much are you exposingyourself to the media, even if
you are in an affected area,being mindful of what you need
to keep on, what you need to bealerted to, but also tuning out
as much as you can to keepyourself from being overwhelmed
(13:14):
as well?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So yeah, I'm really happy you said that, because I
know I was talking to somefriends over the weekend and we
are feeling overwhelmed.
You know we are picturingourselves in that situation,
saying it's so sad, it's just sosad to think of it, so we had
to stop at some point.
It's like, okay, I know what'shappening, I'll come back to
social media or news, like in aday, you know, and see where
(13:36):
it's at, because it becomes veryoverwhelming and we have to be
mindful of that as well for ourkids.
If we have the TV on and that'sall there is on the news,
whether it's this or any othernatural catastrophe or wars that
are going on, we have to beaware of how much they're
consuming, because we know itaffects us Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What would you?
You know there might be a childout there.
I'm just hearing a lot aboutkids and how they're struggling
and, you know, maybe there's achild out there in LA or close
to LA whose house was spared.
Their home is safe, theirfamily is okay, but their
school's gone and most of theirfriends lost their home.
What should a parent or whatsort of guidance maybe can you
(14:18):
offer a parent?
Maybe it's the duality, but I'mnot sure.
But how do you move forwardwith that, while the child might
feel guilt that they're okay,but all their friends have lost
their home.
That they're okay, but alltheir friends have lost their
home.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What can we do in terms of starting that
conversation?
Yes, I was inspired by goodfriends of ours whose child lost
their school and their teacherlost their home, and what they
did as a community was mobilizefor several of the teachers and
students and got together andhelped them move into temporary
housing, helped them get whatthey need, get supplies.
(14:57):
So again, it's really comingback to the community element,
it's the coming together, andthat is what gives some sense of
relief to the soul, if you will, when you see the people who
are saying, okay, yes, maybe Iam privileged or lucky or
(15:18):
circumstantially unaffecteddirectly in this way, but so
what can I do?
How can I get my hands in thereto serve others?
And to me, I think it'spowerful what we've witnessed
already from the communitiesaffected how much they have come
to support each other and howmuch they have grieved together,
(15:40):
worked together, served eachother.
And there'll be a long time ofprocessing and rebuilding and
coming together.
But seeing this in this moment,seeing the service, the acts of
service and connection witheach other, is really the saving
grace.
I think that will help thathuman spirit keep hopeful and
(16:03):
optimistic and connected.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And I think that idea of that community part you know
, I guess if a child is sad andfeels bad, you can even draw
like a picture for thefirefighters, like a thank you
card.
You know, just the fact thatyou're thinking about how to
help the community and supportthem is showing that you were
spared, yes, but you know yourhouse was spared and you were
okay, but you can still feel,you know like you want to help
(16:28):
others.
I really like that aspect, butyou can still feel like you want
to help others.
I really like that aspect.
Again, any sort of now we'retalking about the LA fires, but
any sort of catastrophe or eventwithin your home, your school,
I think it's a nice way to thinkabout it that way.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, yes, I mean, it's devastating and yet we need
to make sense of things right.
And we both know that meaningmaking is a huge part of how we
can have some post-traumaticgrowth right.
And we both know that meaningmaking is a huge part of how we
can have some post-traumaticgrowth right.
Not everyone who experiences astress or a trauma will develop
(17:01):
trauma symptoms.
Thankfully, many can grow fromthe experience.
I wish they didn't have to, butthey can.
Often, when we've been able tomake sense of the experience and
we may not understand thecauses, we may not understand
the whys, but we can make senseof what it did to each of us,
(17:24):
how it affected each of us, whatwe do differently, going
forward or the things that gaveus comfort.
So meaning making together is apowerful way forward to grow
and to protect our emotionalwell-being.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I'm so happy that you brought that up, because one of
my other questions was movingforward, and I often hear this
phrase it bothers me a littlebit like kids are resilient.
I don't know why.
It's just because I feel thatit kind of says like, okay, well
, we've done whatever happenedhappened and they'll be fine in
the end.
But I love that you're makingthat connection because I do
(18:01):
think that there's work and Ithink maybe there's some parents
that are going to question howis this going to impact my child
if there is trauma?
How do I know?
If there's trauma, what shouldI be looking for and then what
sort of support?
So, taking that what you justsaid, what should a parent be
mindful of and aware of?
Moving forward now as they areworking on the resilience, I'd
(18:22):
rather say it that way thansaying they are resilient.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I don't know if it's just me, no, no, and I
appreciate you saying that, andI think, in a way, relying on
the resilience of children hasthe potential to negate the
impact or to invalidate thefeelings that they may have, and
(18:45):
I think it also may reflect theinherent systemic biases,
injustices that exist in oursociety, because there are many
marginalized, racialized groupswho are absolutely
disproportionately impacted byall kinds of negative, stressful
(19:07):
and traumatic events, and sothose individuals shouldn't have
to be resilient, and so Ireally appreciate you saying
that.
What we do know is that, as Isaid, there doesn't need to be
trauma from every experience.
We may be able to do somethings to mitigate it.
(19:28):
So really being attuned to anychanges in your child's behavior
, sleep patterns, eating,tearfulness, their mood in
general and again, this would beexpected.
So it's not as though when wesee these things that we need to
panic.
As parents, we would expect thatafter a major event, we could
(19:50):
see an impact on those things,but noticing them and trying to
engage in conversation, as wetalked about already, engage in
ritual, often in times of stress, being able to just rest in our
rituals, going back to whetherit's saying the same thing that
we say at bedtime every night,or eating a certain meal at a
(20:14):
certain time, whatever ritualsexist in our family, those
provide a tremendous amount ofcomfort and also sort of
normalcy for our children, evenwhen everything else is abnormal
.
So, tuning into thosedifferences that we might see
and attending to them withoutpanic and worry, but really
leaning into connection, aswe've talked about ritual
(20:38):
everything that we can toprioritize their well-being and
to help them make sense of thosethings, whether it's talking
about it, whether it's drawingabout it, whether it's writing
about it, singing about it, orfor some children, they may need
the support of an outsideprofessional, or even as parents
, consulting with an outsideprofessional.
So there's varying degrees, ofcourse, but just being aware of
(21:01):
those changes in mood, eating,sleep, interest in activities,
all of those things that we needto kind of tune into as parents
and then respond to accordingly.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And if a child starts to wake up in fear?
Right now they might besleeping at a hotel, at a family
member's house, Maybe they'rereally far away and they just
keep envisioning again thedeparture from their home,
seeing the fires behind in thecar and just seeing the smoke.
People are departing their homeand just picturing this moment
(21:34):
of grab.
Whatever you can, and, like yousaid, you mentioned before that
my favorite toy, you know, likesomething as simple as that for
a child.
But having those images ofdriving away from your home.
And if a child is waking up,very often with nightmares, do
you just comfort and let themcry and say I'm sad too.
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
and let them cry and say I'm sad too.
How do you respond to that?
So one of the things that Ithink happens for some parents
sometimes is that we're soanxious ourselves understandably
and rightfully about how ourchildren are going to recover
from this that we want to sortof encourage them back to
normalcy really quickly.
And so one of the things that Ithink about is that there's
(22:16):
often disruptions in life, someof them minor, like a sickness,
a cold, an ear infection, andthen some of them more
significant, like this.
But our children tend to comeback to their attachment figure
in those moments right.
So at bedtime.
You know, nighttime is the timethat is the most vulnerable for
(22:38):
children.
It's a long stretch to bewithout a parent.
If they're sleeping in theirown room, they may need to kind
of go back to whatever givesthem comfort.
So that might mean for somefamilies they're co-sleeping for
a little while.
It might mean that your childneeds you in the room next to
them to fall asleep for a littlewhile.
Whatever an individual childneeds, I think it's important
(23:00):
for parents to be prepared thatwe need to go back to connection
.
We kind of have to go back tothe beginning in a way, to kind
of reset that safety for them toknow that they're okay, and
then the time will come that wecan go back to whatever routine
your child had, but really justallowing space and time for them
(23:20):
to come back to that secureattachment figure in whatever
way that looks like for them.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Thank you for that reminder Again.
I'm glad that you said that,whether it's a small event or a
big event, we kind of want toput them back into that regular
pattern.
You used to go to bed on yourown.
You never.
You haven't needed me besideyou in a year, and now we forget
that we are that attachmentfigure and there's a comfort to
that.
So I really appreciate thatreminder, even for myself.
You know like it could beanything that happens where
(23:47):
there's a shift and you noticethat shift, but it kind of
sometimes annoys you and you'refrustrated Like we had it all
figured out, you know.
And so, especially with a bigevent like this, just being
mindful, you know, for parentsthat are listening to say like
maybe my child will need me alittle bit more, and that's okay
.
And what's hard, though, isthat if you did go through
something or if you areexperiencing your own loss and
(24:09):
your own struggles, thatsometimes you might not have the
capacity to show up for them ina way that they need.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But that's where I think self-compassion comes in
right and your needs stillmatter and you are dealing with
it a certain way too 100%, andrecognizing that capacity and
that your capacity will shiftunder stress is so important,
and that's why leaning onwhatever other supports that we
have as adults is key as well.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Right, I'm going to.
For those listening, I'm goingto also link the episode with Dr
Susan King from McGillUniversity.
So she studied the ice stormthat we had here and she studies
hurricanes and naturaldisasters and the perceived
stress that pregnant momsundergo.
So I'm saying this out loud sothat I don't forget to put it in
the show notes.
(24:58):
I just want everybody to alsohave the conversation that I
just had with Dr Tamara Soles,as well as the conversation with
researcher Dr King, so that youcan see the importance of
perceived stress, not to saythat it's not stressful to go
through this, but, if you can,as you said, tamara, thinking
about things of gratitude or howcan we support the community
(25:19):
now and working through that.
Who had the same number of dayswhere they had lost power with
the storm, those who said, okay,we're going to get through this
, what can I do to make thisbetter?
(25:40):
Or I have food, I'm fine, orthey would problem solve and
perceive the stress verydifferently, had less of an
impact on their own stress andthe babies as well.
There are pregnant moms in LA.
There are very small childrenand if the parent is stressed,
we know that there's thattrickle down effect.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So how can an adult going through this shift, the
way that they're perceiving this, which is hard to do in the
moment- yes, of course it is and, as we said, it's hard to do
without veering into that sortof toxic positivity where we're
not acknowledging the challengesthat exist.
But I think it does come backto the examples that you just
(26:19):
gave, which is allowingourselves to be reminded of the
things that we're doing, thatgive us some sense of agency,
right, so that distress oftencomes from a feeling of
helplessness, as we talked aboutearlier, and so reminding
ourselves, as adults, of thethings that we do have control
(26:40):
over and the things that we cando, and also allowing ourselves
to not have all the answersright away, that it's going to
take time, that I'll figure thisout, and it'll take time.
And you know, sometimes some ofus often use the idea of is
(27:01):
this something that's going tobe a problem for me in five
minutes, five hours, five days,five years?
Something like this obviouslyhas the potential impact long
term, there's no question.
There's no question, but we willfind our way forward and
reminding ourselves that it willnot get solved right now, the
(27:21):
fires are not under controlright now.
We have to focus on the partsthat we do have control over,
and so just reminding ourselvesto take our time to focus on
what we have control over and tolook to others right that this
is a collective solution thatwill need to be found right, so
we're not alone in it and it'sfinding that solution.
(27:43):
And I also wanted to mentionthat I know there was a piece in
LA Parent that had some goodresources from a child
psychologist and a pulmonologistfrom Children's Hospital in Los
.
Angeles with some tips, somesort of concrete tips also,
which I think was valuable foryou know, thinking about both
(28:04):
the physical and mental healthimpact.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
So just I'll add that to the-.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That would be great.
And just availing yourself ofresources but also not being,
you know, overwhelmed by them.
Again, it's a balance right wefind a few resources that
resonate with us and then focuson the things that we can do.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Right, thank you.
Thank you so much for takingyour time and I know that this
conversation will help manyparents.
Again, unfortunately, we had tomeet under these circumstances,
but I always end myconversation by saying I look
forward to the next talk becauseyou and I I just I love hearing
you share your insight with us,and I know that the community
appreciates it.
So thank you again.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, thank you for all you do, cindy, I appreciate
it.
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Kirsten On
Podcast.
My name is Cindy and I am yourhost, and today we are doing
something a little bit differentWith everything that's going on
in LA and the fires.
I think that it's important forus to cover that and give
everybody some guidance in termsof how to speak to your child
about it, whether they were partof it, whether they have a
friend that was part of it, orwhether they're like us and far
away from it, but still seeingit on the news or hearing about
(00:23):
it with their friends, and soI'm really grateful that Dr
Tamara Soles has joined me today.
Tamara, welcome again to theCuresNorm podcast.
Thank you for having me, Cindy.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I wish it was under different circumstances.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Exactly.
I'm really grateful that youwere okay with meeting with me
at the last minute, because I'mgetting messages from parents
and I want to make sure thatthey have the right me at the
last minute, because I'm gettingmessages from parents and I
want to make sure that they havethe right, not scripts, but
sort of guidance in terms of theconversations to have.
So we're going to try to keepit short today, so that you know
, but covering everything at thesame time.
So how about we begin with?
You know, being here inMontreal, what I'm hearing is
(00:59):
you know kids are seeing it onthe news, you know we're hearing
about they're hearing about itat school, and I think what's
important is there are differentperspectives to this.
So one of my kids, one of theirquestions, was fire is really
dangerous and it's scary toimagine just the idea of your
house and town and city burningdown.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So I've tried to be mindful in terms of the images
that they're seeing, becausesome of them, to be honest,
stuck with me going to bed and,just you know, feeling sad and
it's a scary thing.
So how do we begin to talkabout to our kids?
You know, as parents, we wantto protect our kids from hearing
things that they can't unhearor unsee, that may impact them,
you know, short-term orlong-term.
And yet, recognizing that manyof our kids are of an age where
they may be exposed toinformation in other ways, be it
(01:59):
from friends or at theschoolyard or on the internet,
and so we want to be the driversof those conversations, we want
to make sure that our childrenhave opportunity to process what
they're hearing andexperiencing within the comfort
of our relationship, and so wecan do that by starting the
(02:20):
conversations Now.
If you have a very young child,let's say you're really distant
from LA and you have a veryyoung child who is unlikely to
be exposed in any way to this,we don't have to introduce that
to them, but for other children,it's a good place to start with
a question of I know there'sbeen a lot on the news about
(02:41):
what's happening in Californiaand the fires and I'm wondering
what you've heard.
So starting there before wedive in, just to assess what
they know and what they feelabout what they've heard so far,
that's a good place to start.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I like that because, again, you're not putting
certain words in their mouth orquestions that they might not
have had but they'd neverthought of.
But the scary thing, it couldbecome a scary thing for a child
.
So I think I agree with you inthe sense that if your child is
too young, we don't have tobring that into their awareness.
You know, so I understand that.
You know.
I wonder if there are childrenout there also who might hear
(03:18):
about it and you're talkingabout it in your house and then
you feel that there's no empathyor they're like it's not
affecting me, so who cares?
Is that also a conversation weshould have with our child in
terms of well, or are we makingit too much of a big thing if
that happens?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's a great question, cindy, you know.
I think one of the potentialbenefits of exposing children to
a curated amount of informationabout world events is that it
can develop empathy andcompassion, and so what we do
with that, though, is critical.
So how we approach thatsituation, there may be children
(03:57):
who, on the surface, appear tobe unsympathetic about it, which
may be their ownself-protective response to so
we want to be careful not tojust be sort of horrified, as a
parent, by what seems like alack of empathy, and just dive
in, but rather use reallyreflective questions like what
do you think it would be like tobe this person?
(04:19):
Or imagine, can you imaginewhat it feels like to be in this
situation right now, where yourschool is burned down or you're
not sure if your friends areokay?
These are big questions, bigsituations, but asking
reflective questions, or evenasking questions about what
(04:42):
others might feel in thatsituation how do you think
so-and-so would feel it's reallyjust helping to shift that
perspective and to develop thatempathy and compassion.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, and I do think it is a good time to talk about
that and help them develop thoseskills, because some young kids
might not have that developedyet.
And again, it's so far away,it's not happening to me, it's
not happening in my home and mycity.
So it's easy to feel thatdisconnect.
And I just want to quickly goback to the images Again.
The fire, the image of a fire,I think again, thinking about
(05:14):
maybe a hurricane or tornado,we're like that can't happen
here.
But a fire is something thatmany kids can fear and I know
with my kids as well it was likecan this happen to us?
Can our home burn down?
And you know what would happento all my things?
And so they did question that.
Would you know if maybe a childnow had a nightmare or you know
(05:37):
anything?
But in terms of fearing thefire, what can we do with a
child?
You know how do we approachthem if they have that new fear
now and we want to help them.
Kind of work on that, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think we want to acknowledge the elements of
control that we have.
That is the key.
So, of course, unfortunately, afire is a potential possibility
for anyone.
So we can start with the thingsthat we do that keep us safe.
And one of the most importantthings you can do in
conversation with your childabout this is to reassure them
(06:08):
that you've got this, that asparents, this is our
responsibility.
It's our job to do everythingwe can to keep you safe, so that
it's very clear that this isn'ta worry that they need to hold
on their own.
That that's our job.
So that's something we need tomake explicit always.
But then we can talk abouthere's the things that we do to
(06:31):
keep our house safe.
Right, we have a fire blanket,we have fire extinguishers, we
have a safety plan of what wewould do and, of course,
depending on the ages of yourchildren, you can involve them
in that safety planning.
You can tell them that you'velooked at the government
recommendations about how tokeep your home fire safe.
(06:52):
So engaging them in theconcrete things that you're
doing to keep everyone safe iskey, while also reminding them
that this is very unlikely, butalso reminding them that this is
very unlikely and sometimes oneof the challenges, especially
for younger children.
When they see things on thenews, it's hard for them to
understand that this may bedevastating, but also isolated,
(07:16):
and it feels like it could begeneralized and happen at any
moment.
And so being able to say, yes,we take all of these steps to be
prepared and I've got you, thisis my job to keep you safe.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But also, we live in a place where this is why this
is less likely and we do what wecan, but we're also grateful to
be living somewhere that's verysafe like starting off with
that element of control, and Ithink it's a good reminder for
us parents too, right, in termsof any situation that happens,
to kind of come back to it andtake a moment to say, okay,
(07:49):
what's under control?
You know, in this situation andI love that.
So let's move on towards thosewho are affected and in the area
.
One question you know that aparent was asking is you know if
they're close to the area andactually fearful right now of
this extending to their city andtheir home, and they don't want
to?
Do you hide the emotion and theworry from your child?
(08:09):
You don't want to create asense of urgency, but you are
literally worried for your home,and so how much do we hide from
our child and I think thatwould extend into somebody who
was affected right now as wellDo you hide the sadness?
Do you try to be resilient andshow them that we're strong?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yes, it's such a tight rope, I think, as a parent
(08:47):
, because we want to both modelhow we navigate our emotions
that are real and valid, whilealso holding it together enough
that our children sees thattheir caregivers, their
protectors, are still in control, and so allowing them to see
your sadness is perfectly okay,understandable, even helpful at
times.
And expressing that and alsogrounding that in I am sad.
I'm sad for all the myriadreasons we would be sad in this
situation, but also I'm grateful.
(09:08):
I'm grateful that we're safe,I'm grateful that you're okay.
So, having the duality of it, itreally is, as I said, a
tightrope, because if we onlysay you know what, thank
goodness, we're safe, we're okay, it's just stuff right, we can
invalidate the feelings of Ijust lost the most important toy
(09:31):
I had or my home, my safe haven.
So it's important not to veerinto that toxic positivity and
negate whatever feelings theymay have, because that sadness
is real, that fear is real andunderstandable.
Real, that fear is real andunderstandable.
So, validating that, modelinghow we deal with it and still
(09:53):
also showing gratitude for thethings that matter to us most is
, I think, where we can try tofind that balance and that
duality is something that weexperience as well as somebody
who's not part of it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
but we might have friends or people that are
experiencing this, while alsobeing grateful that we're okay
and that we're not in that area.
It's hard to balance that,because then you feel the guilt
of thank goodness we're okay,but then I know people that are
going through this.
Even as an adult, that dualityis really hard.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, it is.
It's making me tear up rightnow.
As you know, I lived in LA formany years.
We have many friends andcolleagues and people we care
for very deeply who are impactedsignificantly right now in LA
and it is hard.
It's hard because, of course,we also feel a sense of
(10:45):
helplessness in a way, but it'salso a reminder of how
connection and compassion serveus all.
So when we can reach out tofriends and say listen, I'm not
expecting you to respond to meright now, I'm just wanting you
to know that you're in mythoughts and maybe here's
(11:06):
something that I've done.
I've donated to thisorganization or I've done
something to show my support.
It's really, really hard.
That duality is part of life,right?
This dialectic element of lifeis that two things can be true
at once, and it is the humancondition of wrestling with
(11:27):
multiple feelings.
And I think in the same way,when we're trying to help our
children through difficultsituations, it can be helpful to
ground them in solutions, andsometimes the solutions can be
things that we can do todirectly support a catastrophe,
a crisis.
Sometimes it's okay.
Here's what we can do for thatcommunity.
(11:49):
It's limited, but what can wedo in our own as well.
So really just bringing it backto all the ways that we can
contribute to making our world,to think of, you know, any
catastrophe, like you said, oreven mourning somebody, a
grandparent or a family member,where you're, at the same time,
(12:16):
grateful for all the momentsthat you had, while you're also
sad that they're.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I just feel that there's so many moments that
that duality comes back.
So I just want to put like aslight emphasis on it, because
it's really an important one forparents to be okay with that
ourselves and to allow our childto experience that duality.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yes exactly.
Yeah, one of the things I justalso wanted to mention is
obviously the only way that wecan care for our children and be
able to tolerate thatdiscomfort and duality is being
able to tolerate it in ourselvesand care for ourselves too.
So, especially in the middleall of this, just really think
(12:52):
about what you're doing to carefor yourself.
How much are you exposingyourself to the media, even if
you are in an affected area,being mindful of what you need
to keep on, what you need to bealerted to, but also tuning out
as much as you can to keepyourself from being overwhelmed
(13:14):
as well?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So yeah, I'm really happy you said that, because I
know I was talking to somefriends over the weekend and we
are feeling overwhelmed.
You know we are picturingourselves in that situation,
saying it's so sad, it's just sosad to think of it, so we had
to stop at some point.
It's like, okay, I know what'shappening, I'll come back to
social media or news, like in aday, you know, and see where
(13:36):
it's at, because it becomes veryoverwhelming and we have to be
mindful of that as well for ourkids.
If we have the TV on and that'sall there is on the news,
whether it's this or any othernatural catastrophe or wars that
are going on, we have to beaware of how much they're
consuming, because we know itaffects us Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What would you?
You know there might be a childout there.
I'm just hearing a lot aboutkids and how they're struggling
and, you know, maybe there's achild out there in LA or close
to LA whose house was spared.
Their home is safe, theirfamily is okay, but their
school's gone and most of theirfriends lost their home.
What should a parent or whatsort of guidance maybe can you
(14:18):
offer a parent?
Maybe it's the duality, but I'mnot sure.
But how do you move forwardwith that, while the child might
feel guilt that they're okay,but all their friends have lost
their home.
That they're okay, but alltheir friends have lost their
home.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What can we do in terms of starting that
conversation?
Yes, I was inspired by goodfriends of ours whose child lost
their school and their teacherlost their home, and what they
did as a community was mobilizefor several of the teachers and
students and got together andhelped them move into temporary
housing, helped them get whatthey need, get supplies.
(14:57):
So again, it's really comingback to the community element,
it's the coming together, andthat is what gives some sense of
relief to the soul, if you will, when you see the people who
are saying, okay, yes, maybe Iam privileged or lucky or
(15:18):
circumstantially unaffecteddirectly in this way, but so
what can I do?
How can I get my hands in thereto serve others?
And to me, I think it'spowerful what we've witnessed
already from the communitiesaffected how much they have come
to support each other and howmuch they have grieved together,
(15:40):
worked together, served eachother.
And there'll be a long time ofprocessing and rebuilding and
coming together.
But seeing this in this moment,seeing the service, the acts of
service and connection witheach other, is really the saving
grace.
I think that will help thathuman spirit keep hopeful and
(16:03):
optimistic and connected.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And I think that idea of that community part you know
, I guess if a child is sad andfeels bad, you can even draw
like a picture for thefirefighters, like a thank you
card.
You know, just the fact thatyou're thinking about how to
help the community and supportthem is showing that you were
spared, yes, but you know yourhouse was spared and you were
okay, but you can still feel,you know like you want to help
(16:28):
others.
I really like that aspect, butyou can still feel like you want
to help others.
I really like that aspect.
Again, any sort of now we'retalking about the LA fires, but
any sort of catastrophe or eventwithin your home, your school,
I think it's a nice way to thinkabout it that way.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, yes, I mean, it's devastating and yet we need
to make sense of things right.
And we both know that meaningmaking is a huge part of how we
can have some post-traumaticgrowth right.
And we both know that meaningmaking is a huge part of how we
can have some post-traumaticgrowth right.
Not everyone who experiences astress or a trauma will develop
(17:01):
trauma symptoms.
Thankfully, many can grow fromthe experience.
I wish they didn't have to, butthey can.
Often, when we've been able tomake sense of the experience and
we may not understand thecauses, we may not understand
the whys, but we can make senseof what it did to each of us,
(17:24):
how it affected each of us, whatwe do differently, going
forward or the things that gaveus comfort.
So meaning making together is apowerful way forward to grow
and to protect our emotionalwell-being.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I'm so happy that you brought that up, because one of
my other questions was movingforward, and I often hear this
phrase it bothers me a littlebit like kids are resilient.
I don't know why.
It's just because I feel thatit kind of says like, okay, well
, we've done whatever happenedhappened and they'll be fine in
the end.
But I love that you're makingthat connection because I do
(18:01):
think that there's work and Ithink maybe there's some parents
that are going to question howis this going to impact my child
if there is trauma?
How do I know?
If there's trauma, what shouldI be looking for and then what
sort of support?
So, taking that what you justsaid, what should a parent be
mindful of and aware of?
Moving forward now as they areworking on the resilience, I'd
(18:22):
rather say it that way thansaying they are resilient.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I don't know if it's just me, no, no, and I
appreciate you saying that, andI think, in a way, relying on
the resilience of children hasthe potential to negate the
impact or to invalidate thefeelings that they may have, and
(18:45):
I think it also may reflect theinherent systemic biases,
injustices that exist in oursociety, because there are many
marginalized, racialized groupswho are absolutely
disproportionately impacted byall kinds of negative, stressful
(19:07):
and traumatic events, and sothose individuals shouldn't have
to be resilient, and so Ireally appreciate you saying
that.
What we do know is that, as Isaid, there doesn't need to be
trauma from every experience.
We may be able to do somethings to mitigate it.
(19:28):
So really being attuned to anychanges in your child's behavior
, sleep patterns, eating,tearfulness, their mood in
general and again, this would beexpected.
So it's not as though when wesee these things that we need to
panic.
As parents, we would expect thatafter a major event, we could
(19:50):
see an impact on those things,but noticing them and trying to
engage in conversation, as wetalked about already, engage in
ritual, often in times of stress, being able to just rest in our
rituals, going back to whetherit's saying the same thing that
we say at bedtime every night,or eating a certain meal at a
(20:14):
certain time, whatever ritualsexist in our family, those
provide a tremendous amount ofcomfort and also sort of
normalcy for our children, evenwhen everything else is abnormal
.
So, tuning into thosedifferences that we might see
and attending to them withoutpanic and worry, but really
leaning into connection, aswe've talked about ritual
(20:38):
everything that we can toprioritize their well-being and
to help them make sense of thosethings, whether it's talking
about it, whether it's drawingabout it, whether it's writing
about it, singing about it, orfor some children, they may need
the support of an outsideprofessional, or even as parents
, consulting with an outsideprofessional.
So there's varying degrees, ofcourse, but just being aware of
(21:01):
those changes in mood, eating,sleep, interest in activities,
all of those things that we needto kind of tune into as parents
and then respond to accordingly.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And if a child starts to wake up in fear?
Right now they might besleeping at a hotel, at a family
member's house, Maybe they'rereally far away and they just
keep envisioning again thedeparture from their home,
seeing the fires behind in thecar and just seeing the smoke.
People are departing their homeand just picturing this moment
(21:34):
of grab.
Whatever you can, and, like yousaid, you mentioned before that
my favorite toy, you know, likesomething as simple as that for
a child.
But having those images ofdriving away from your home.
And if a child is waking up,very often with nightmares, do
you just comfort and let themcry and say I'm sad too.
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
and let them cry and say I'm sad too.
How do you respond to that?
So one of the things that Ithink happens for some parents
sometimes is that we're soanxious ourselves understandably
and rightfully about how ourchildren are going to recover
from this that we want to sortof encourage them back to
normalcy really quickly.
And so one of the things that Ithink about is that there's
(22:16):
often disruptions in life, someof them minor, like a sickness,
a cold, an ear infection, andthen some of them more
significant, like this.
But our children tend to comeback to their attachment figure
in those moments right.
So at bedtime.
You know, nighttime is the timethat is the most vulnerable for
(22:38):
children.
It's a long stretch to bewithout a parent.
If they're sleeping in theirown room, they may need to kind
of go back to whatever givesthem comfort.
So that might mean for somefamilies they're co-sleeping for
a little while.
It might mean that your childneeds you in the room next to
them to fall asleep for a littlewhile.
Whatever an individual childneeds, I think it's important
(23:00):
for parents to be prepared thatwe need to go back to connection
.
We kind of have to go back tothe beginning in a way, to kind
of reset that safety for them toknow that they're okay, and
then the time will come that wecan go back to whatever routine
your child had, but really justallowing space and time for them
(23:20):
to come back to that secureattachment figure in whatever
way that looks like for them.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Thank you for that reminder Again.
I'm glad that you said that,whether it's a small event or a
big event, we kind of want toput them back into that regular
pattern.
You used to go to bed on yourown.
You never.
You haven't needed me besideyou in a year, and now we forget
that we are that attachmentfigure and there's a comfort to
that.
So I really appreciate thatreminder, even for myself.
You know like it could beanything that happens where
(23:47):
there's a shift and you noticethat shift, but it kind of
sometimes annoys you and you'refrustrated Like we had it all
figured out, you know.
And so, especially with a bigevent like this, just being
mindful, you know, for parentsthat are listening to say like
maybe my child will need me alittle bit more, and that's okay
.
And what's hard, though, isthat if you did go through
something or if you areexperiencing your own loss and
(24:09):
your own struggles, thatsometimes you might not have the
capacity to show up for them ina way that they need.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But that's where I think self-compassion comes in
right and your needs stillmatter and you are dealing with
it a certain way too 100%, andrecognizing that capacity and
that your capacity will shiftunder stress is so important,
and that's why leaning onwhatever other supports that we
have as adults is key as well.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Right, I'm going to.
For those listening, I'm goingto also link the episode with Dr
Susan King from McGillUniversity.
So she studied the ice stormthat we had here and she studies
hurricanes and naturaldisasters and the perceived
stress that pregnant momsundergo.
So I'm saying this out loud sothat I don't forget to put it in
the show notes.
(24:58):
I just want everybody to alsohave the conversation that I
just had with Dr Tamara Soles,as well as the conversation with
researcher Dr King, so that youcan see the importance of
perceived stress, not to saythat it's not stressful to go
through this, but, if you can,as you said, tamara, thinking
about things of gratitude or howcan we support the community
(25:19):
now and working through that.
Who had the same number of dayswhere they had lost power with
the storm, those who said, okay,we're going to get through this
, what can I do to make thisbetter?
(25:40):
Or I have food, I'm fine, orthey would problem solve and
perceive the stress verydifferently, had less of an
impact on their own stress andthe babies as well.
There are pregnant moms in LA.
There are very small childrenand if the parent is stressed,
we know that there's thattrickle down effect.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
So how can an adult going through this shift, the
way that they're perceiving this, which is hard to do in the
moment- yes, of course it is and, as we said, it's hard to do
without veering into that sortof toxic positivity where we're
not acknowledging the challengesthat exist.
But I think it does come backto the examples that you just
(26:19):
gave, which is allowingourselves to be reminded of the
things that we're doing, thatgive us some sense of agency,
right, so that distress oftencomes from a feeling of
helplessness, as we talked aboutearlier, and so reminding
ourselves, as adults, of thethings that we do have control
(26:40):
over and the things that we cando, and also allowing ourselves
to not have all the answersright away, that it's going to
take time, that I'll figure thisout, and it'll take time.
And you know, sometimes some ofus often use the idea of is
(27:01):
this something that's going tobe a problem for me in five
minutes, five hours, five days,five years?
Something like this obviouslyhas the potential impact long
term, there's no question.
There's no question, but we willfind our way forward and
reminding ourselves that it willnot get solved right now, the
(27:21):
fires are not under controlright now.
We have to focus on the partsthat we do have control over,
and so just reminding ourselvesto take our time to focus on
what we have control over and tolook to others right that this
is a collective solution thatwill need to be found right, so
we're not alone in it and it'sfinding that solution.
(27:43):
And I also wanted to mentionthat I know there was a piece in
LA Parent that had some goodresources from a child
psychologist and a pulmonologistfrom Children's Hospital in Los
.
Angeles with some tips, somesort of concrete tips also,
which I think was valuable foryou know, thinking about both
(28:04):
the physical and mental healthimpact.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
So just I'll add that to the-.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That would be great.
And just availing yourself ofresources but also not being,
you know, overwhelmed by them.
Again, it's a balance right wefind a few resources that
resonate with us and then focuson the things that we can do.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Right, thank you.
Thank you so much for takingyour time and I know that this
conversation will help manyparents.
Again, unfortunately, we had tomeet under these circumstances,
but I always end myconversation by saying I look
forward to the next talk becauseyou and I I just I love hearing
you share your insight with us,and I know that the community
appreciates it.
So thank you again.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, thank you for all you do, cindy, I appreciate
it.
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