Strengthening Family Connections through Self-Regulation With Dr. Bruce Perry (Replay)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You can most successfully engage people if
you first regulate yourself.
Make sure that you're regulated, and that that's because human
beings are contagious.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, my dear friend , welcome back to another
episode of the Curious NeuronPodcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
This was a snippet or a pieceof an old school Curious Neuron
Podcast.
That was episode 100, andthat's what we're doing today.
I know that last week wecelebrated episode 200 of the
podcast, but I felt it wasappropriate to bring back the

(00:45):
episode and replay Bruce Perry,dr Bruce Perry on the podcast,
because it was such an importantconversation and it is the top
performing podcast, the podcastepisode with the most downloads,
so I thought we should bring itto the audience who perhaps
hasn't heard my conversationwith him, and so today is a
replay episode.
I hope you're all havingwonderful holidays.

(01:07):
It is the last week of Decemberand next week we jump into 2025
.
For those of you who aremembers inside the Reflective
Parent Club because most of themembers are from the podcast I
hope that you enjoyed theresources that we had over at
the end of December.
I wanted to make sure thatparents approached any family

(01:28):
gathering or outing or event, oreven family vacations, by
setting expectations.
I know that sometimes we gointo these events thinking, hey,
you know what?
Maybe Aunt Susie won't makethat comment about weight or
food or being skinny oroverweight, whatever it is about
weight or food, or being skinnyor overweight, whatever it is.
Or maybe your expectations arearound our kids, thinking they

(01:49):
won't have a tantrum.
I think everything will go well.
I want them to not have atantrum.
I don't want to have to manageemotions in front of everybody,
but when these things don'thappen and it doesn't meet our
expectations, it's very easy forus to become extremely angry,
to have our mood impacted, ourenergy decreases and that can

(02:10):
impact the day that we have withour child and how we respond to
them.
We start reacting to theminstead, and so we approached
inside the membership, theReflective Parent Club, ways
that we could think about theseexpectations and speak to our
partners about expectations.
And speak to our partners aboutexpectations and speak to the
family members that are going tobe around, maybe explain to
them some of our family valuesthat might not be aligned with

(02:31):
the values of our own upbringing, and then also having
conversations with our kids.
So if you're listening to thisand you still have some holiday
parties left, just take a momentto think about that and if you
need all of the informationaround that a moment to think
about that, and if you need allof the information around that,
the Reflective Parent Club hasits own podcast.
So I record audios that share myown life experiences sort of

(02:52):
what you're hearing about here,but in a lot more detail and I
post PDFs and reflection prompts, workbooks for you, workbooks
for your child.
We even had this week, insteadof having our weekly call well,
we did have a weekly call, butinstead of it just being parents
, we invited children to ourcall and I think that we're

(03:13):
going to do this over againbecause it was so good.
We talked about emotionalawareness with Meltdown Mountain
and children really enjoyeddrawing the mountain and talking
about what makes them eitherwalk, run or take a rocket all
the way to the top of themountain, and parents felt that
they were giving their kids thatsort of language around

(03:33):
emotions.
If, by the way, I've broughtback Meltdown Mountain onto my
website, I'm going to post thelink below If you would like to
have it for free.
Leave a rating and a review forthe podcast.
So click out now so you don'tforget.
Rate the podcast, leave areview and just send me an email
.
Let me know that you did it andI will send you Meltdown
Mountain, which is a printablethat you can put right up on

(03:55):
your fridge and have thelanguage to talk to your child
about emotional awareness andwhat it feels like to be
dysregulated.
You can do that through thisPDF.
So just send me an email andmake sure you rate and review
the podcast, and if theReflective Parent Club is
something you want to jump intofor the new year, I've left our
Black Friday sale so it's stillavailable.

(04:18):
You want to grab that now,because the prices are going to
be going back after the holidaysand now you could join for just
$50 for three months, and sothat breaks down to $6 and a few
cents every week for a one hourcall with me every single week
and a weekly, a monthly expertand more podcast episodes, pdfs.

(04:39):
We have a book club within theReflective Parent Club and next
month, so in January, we'regoing to have Erika Josa, who is
the founder and CEO of MomWell.
She is our book of the monthfor January and we're also
bringing her in as a Q&A expert,and so this is the kind of
things that we do inside theclub.
So I'll see you inside and, bythe way, you also get two weeks

(05:02):
for free so that you candetermine if it's meant for you.
All right, and as always,before we begin, I'd like to
thank the Tannenbaum OpenScience Institute, as well as
the McConnell Foundation, forsponsoring the podcast.
Without them, this would not bepossible, and without you.
So please share the podcastwith friends and family and
share it on Facebook pages forparents, share it at work inside
a newsletter or let HR know,and they'll share it around,

(05:24):
because parents and well-beingmatters.
And follow us on Instagram atcurious underscore neuron.
All right.
So if you are one of the veryfew people that don't know about
Dr Bruce Perry or whose lifehasn't been altered or changed
by his books one being whathappened to you and the second
one being the boy who was raisedas a dog His work is important

(05:45):
for so many people, whether youwork with children, whether you
have children, or even just foryourself, whether you are a
clinician, an educator, anyoneTo help us understand the brain
and how it is affected by ourearly childhood.
His work is just some of themost important work that I've
seen.
He is the principal of theNeurosequential Network and a

(06:05):
professor in the Department ofPsychiatry and Behavioral
Sciences at the Feinberg Schoolof Medicine at Northwestern
University in Chicago.
He has been working for thepast 30 years as a teacher,
clinician, researcher inchildren's mental health and
neurosciences, and holds avariety of academic positions.
We've waited long enough.
It's a long interview so youmight want to break this down

(06:27):
and listen to some parts of it.
You know, piece by piece Icould not break it into two
parts.
It's just so good I don't wantto, you know, cut anything.
So the full interview is there.
You can also watch it onYouTube if you want.
I hope you enjoy myconversation with Dr Bruce Perry
and thank you to Claudia forjoining me on this conversation.
She is part of the CuriousNeuron podcast team and was the

(06:48):
reason why he ended up joiningme at the podcast.
I cannot take any credit.
She was awesome and thank you.
I will see you on the otherside, dr Perry.
Thank you so much for joiningme today at the Curious Neuron
podcast.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Claudia and I are beyond excited to have this
conversation with you, and soare the parents that knew that I
was talking with you today.
I have read your book, whatHappened to you, and I
personally think, having workedwith parents now for a few years
, I know that it would help themso much to understand really
the biological organization oftheir child's brain.
Because a lot of parents willreach out and say you know, I
told my child to calm down whenthey were screaming or crying

(07:26):
and it didn't work.
Or why is my child behavingthis way?
You know, what can I do to helpthem?
Or why do they scream?
I yell at them, they yell at me.
What's wrong?
Why can't we stop this cycle?
And I think a lot of thattouches on the work that you do.
Can you explain a little bitabout that?
You've explained it sobeautifully in your books this
bottom-up approach and how wecan't get to the cortex without

(07:49):
regulating.
Can you explain that aspect ofyour work, please?
Sure.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
So, as you know very well, one of the major
challenges of talking to anybodyabout the brain and human
behavior is that it'scomplicated, right?
You know, there are lots ofthings that can influence the
way people think and the waypeople feel, and we've always
taken the perspective that ifyou know a few basics about the

(08:15):
human brain, certain things justmake more sense.
And one of the key conceptsthat we try to teach is that the
brain is organized in thishierarchical way.
Where that very top part of ourbrain and most people have
heard of the term cortex, that'sthe part of your brain that has

(08:38):
systems in it that allow us tospeak there are neural networks
that are involved in reflectingon the past and anticipating the
future.
And when you teach your kidsabout right and wrong, the part
of the brain you're trying tochange is the cortex.
And when you teach your kidslanguage, when you teach them
math, history, almost any of thetraditional topics in education

(09:04):
are going to involve that toppart of your brain.
And now this part of the brainis a very special part of the
human body because it's the mostuniquely human part of our
whole body.
Human beings have a heart andthey have a lung and they have
pancreas and bones and muscleand everybody kind of knows that

(09:25):
.
But the DNA that codes for allof those systems is very similar
to the DNA from other mammals.
So we're kind of cow-like whenit comes to muscles and bones
and we're monkey-like and we'renot that much advanced from rats

(09:47):
when you look at some of ourorgans.
But if you look at the brain,particularly the top part of our
brain, that's the most uniquelyhuman part of us and it's
really what allows us to be theunique individuals that we are.
That's a really important partof us.
Now the dilemma is that part ofour brain develops very slowly.

(10:13):
It's not fully developed untilyou're probably in your late 20s
, when you're very young.
That part of your brain thatallows you to be most thoughtful
and rational and regulated,that part of your brain, as any
parent can tell you, that'sundeveloped.

(10:35):
It's there but it's not reallyas efficient as an adult brain.
So that's one issue withcommunicating with kids and
understanding children, actuallyunderstanding anybody.
The second is that the way yourbrain organizes and this is very
inaccurate.
I'm sure all theneuroscientists who hear this

(10:57):
are just going to cringe Thinkof the brain a little bit like a
layer cake.
There are lower parts of thebrain that mediate very
regulatory things heart rate,blood pressure, body temperature
and stuff like that and thoseare important.
But as you get higher in thebrain, higher in this layer cake

(11:20):
, more complex functions aremediated by systems that are in
those areas and then finally youget to this, really the top
part of your brain.
That is the most uniquely humanpart of our brain, that when
you talk to your kids, that'swhat you're trying to reach, is
that top part of the brain.
So because of this layer cake,you know this development,

(11:42):
developmental process that isbottom up, the brain develops
from the bottom to the top.
We also have a matchingprocessing of sensory input from
the bottom to the top.
So every time you hear, see,smell, touch anything, it
doesn't go directly to yourcortex, it doesn't go to that

(12:03):
smart part of your brain.
It goes to lower parts of yourbrain that are much more
regulatory.
They process and act oninformation in a very different
way than that most uniquelyhuman part of the brain
processes and acts oninformation.
So the trick in talking with achild is that your words are

(12:32):
going to be turned intopatterned neuronal activity that
start in the lowest part of thechild's brain.
That's a very reactive part ofthe brain, and then it goes up
through this kind of middle partof the brain where it's a
little bit more of an emotionalpart of your brain and then it
will ultimately get to thatrational reasoning part of the

(12:53):
brain and that's a sequence.
So we can't expect thatsequence to go perfectly well,
that sequence to go perfectlywell, particularly if a child is
frustrated, hungry, thirsty,cold, upset, because the lower

(13:18):
parts of the brain start to send, if you will, disorganizing
input to higher parts of thebrain when you get hungry,
thirsty, cold and everythingelse like that, and I think any
parent listening knows that thehardest time of the day is
towards four or five, sixo'clock, right, everybody's
coming back from school or workand you're hungry and you've

(13:39):
been holding it together at workall day.
They've been holding it togetherat school and you get back
together and the wise parentknows all right, I need to feed
my child, I need to regulatemyself, I need to calm down.
Let's get them fed, let's getthem regulated in some other way

(14:00):
.
Maybe it's do your sport, runaround, do a little video game,
kind of regulate yourself thatway, maybe it's do your sport,
run around, do a little videogame, kind of regulate yourself
that way and then we'll talkabout homework.
But if the first question iswhere's your homework?
And it just blows up, it's amess.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
It's not setting your child up for success that
evening.
It's just not yet.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Exactly.
And so this whole sequentialprocessing of information leads
to a very simple mantra aboutwhat we call the sequence of
engagement.
You can most successfullyengage people if you first
regulate yourself, make surethat you're regulated, and
that's because human beings arecontagious.

(14:42):
And so if you are frazzledyou're going to dysregulate your
child or your partner orwhoever you're supervising or
whatever.
So you need to sort of take adeep breath and, to the degree
that you can regulate yourselfand then engage the child or
engage whoever it is,recognizing that what you say

(15:06):
and the way you are with thatchild is first going to go
through this very primitive,reactive part of their brain and
then the emotional part of thebrain and finally to the part of
their brain that can reason.
So you have to recognize that ifyou're regulated, you can then
help regulate your child.
Recognize that if you'reregulated, you can then help
regulate your child, and thenyou can relate, you can connect

(15:27):
with them and then, if that's inplace, then they can hear
accurately what you're saying.
But if you don't regulate themand you say where's your
homework, you'll hear stuff likedon't yell at me.
You're always critical andyou're like I didn't yell, and
they're like you're yelling.
No, I'm, no, I'm.
Pretty soon you co-disregulateeach other exactly and every

(15:50):
parent has had that happen andeverybody in their relationships
had that happen.
And as you and as you have thatsort of that dysregulating
interaction, you start to getdumber and more emotional and
more reactive and you say thingsthat you don't really mean.
And then you have to have thiscooling off part and you have to

(16:12):
kind of reconnect.
And that's the interestingthing about human this is one of
the most important things thatwe try to help people appreciate
is that human communication isas much about repair of rupture
as it is about this continuouscortex to cortex connection,

(16:33):
because we don't telepathicallycommunicate with precision and
accuracy what's in our cortex.
Think about the people you lovemost in your life.
How often do you say that's notwhat I meant.
Let me say it again, let meclarify it Blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah and so again, I thinkthat that's one of the hardest
parts about parenting isreminding and helping parents

(16:59):
appreciate that, listen, thereare these unavoidable
neurobiological principles thatyou cannot fight.
If you don't respect thesequence of engagement, you will
not successfully get what's inyour cortex into your child's
cortex.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
This is why I wish you know.
I think back to my own prenatalclasses, and they taught you
how to hold the baby and theytaught you how to hold the baby
and they taught you how to feedthe baby and what to do at night
.
But they never told us this,and if only for myself.
I had three young kids and itwas only by the time I had the
third that I realized I neededto work on myself and things
were difficult and you havethree very small kids under the

(17:42):
age of four and you're like whatam I doing?
I'm lost.
But I hadn't realized that myown system needed some help and
that I came from a childhoodthat was a little bit more
troubled and, you know,struggled with my parents,
divorce and all that.
And by going back to that Ilearned how to regulate myself

(18:02):
and that that changed everythingin the way that I was parenting
.
With all the work and theresearch you've done and all the
conversations you've had aroundthis, is this something you
also wish like as a society,that we kind of break this cycle
, because I mean, I keep hearingparents saying I want to stop
yelling but I can't, but thenthe work isn't being done, so
how do we like stop this cyclefrom happening?

Speaker 1 (18:21):
You know, cindy, that's a first of all.
There's a lot of really goodand important observations in
that, and I really wish that wewould recognize how important it
is for success in every aspectof life to know a little bit
about how the brain works yeah,I agree and how it develops.

(18:43):
I mean, we'd be better policeofficers, teachers, we'd be
better partners, parents,everything would be easier if we
knew more about this.
And you know, most of us learnthese things by accident, right?
Like you said, you had threekids and by the time you had
your third, you're like youfigured out that, hey, it

(19:03):
doesn't work if I'm notregulated, right, if I'm hungry,
thirsty, cold, upset, frazzled,I can't communicate effectively
with anybody in the family.
And so I think, first of all, Ithink one of the things that's
important about what you'redoing and part of what our
organization is trying to do,we're trying to back these

(19:26):
concepts into public education.
We think these things are asimportant as learning the
quadratic equation or learningother things that we
intentionally teach in asystematic way to everybody.
And I think if people learned alittle bit about what we refer
to as state dependentfunctioning, you know just the

(19:47):
recognition that when people aredistressed or stressed, they're
going to have a harder timewith learning new concepts and
with retrieving concepts thatthey've learned right.
So people can learn all kinds ofstuff.
But if you stress them they'renot going to easily retrieve
that and act on it so that thatwould've learned right.

(20:07):
So people can learn all kindsof stuff.
But if you stress them they'renot going to easily retrieve
that and act on it so thatfundamental body of knowledge is
really helpful in figuring outhow to set up a classroom where
kids can effectively learn, forexample, or testing
circumstances where children canperform better and really show
you what they know.
Because a lot of kids getreally anxious about being

(20:28):
tested and they've learned theconcepts and literally if they
went with the teacher and theywalked down the hallway and the
teacher asked the questions, thechild would be able to answer
everyone with 100%.
But if they're forced to sitdown in a classroom and not move
and retrieve it under a timepressure, they can't write down

(20:48):
the answers Turning off theircortex, basically.
Exactly, claudia, exactly, andso we've been trying to back
some of these concepts intopublic education in a way that
it will help people in whatever,whatever they do.
But I, you know, I, cindy, Iwas lucky that I was a parent

(21:11):
before I became a clinician.
So I uh had children when I wasin in medical school and then I
went and got my phd and then Icame back and finished medical
school and went on to do mytraining.
So by the time I was kind ofgetting clinical training in how
to be with kids, I knew that alot of that was just bullshit.

(21:33):
I mean, excuse my language, I'mlike wait, that's not yeah,
that's not the way kids act.
And I was like, wait a minute, Ihave kids, that's, that's not
what you do.
So I was fortunate that I knewsome of these things.
I didn't have all the language,but I'd been studying the

(21:53):
stress response systems inanimal models and their
development as a scientist.
And then I had children and soover time I kind of realized
that what I was learning in thelab had relevance for the way I
was parenting and for what I wasseeing, and it helped me with.
One of my kids had sleep issuesand one of my kids had
regulation issues and one of mykids was like perfect, we

(22:14):
thought we were perfect parents.
That's the irony right.
Our first child was like youknow, I'd say stuff like don't
do that, and he'd go okay, andthen he wouldn't do it.
I'm like wow, I'm a greatparent.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I've got this, yet.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
And then our second child was like what the hell?
You know, she didn't like, shewas very dysregulated, and so
she taught me more about all ofthis stuff than anything else.
And the key, I think, is thatmany parents are going to have
children that have differentconstitutional gifts.
Right, Some kids tolerate a lotof sensory complexity, some

(22:52):
kids don't.
And the way you parent onechild isn't necessarily going to
work with another child, and Ithink we don't teach parents
that very much.
We kind of have this idea thatthere is a parenting.
You know, somebody out therereally knows a lot about
parenting.
We don't.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Or a playbook somewhere.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
That we can just follow and everything will be
fine.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Right, and the funny thing is that there are people
that exploit that.
The funny thing is that thereare people that exploit that and
you know, you go into anybookstore.
There's whole aisles filledwith how to parent and that,
more than anything, illustratesto me what a bad job we do at

(23:39):
teaching people how to parent.
Right, we just don't do a verygood job with it.
I mean, a lot of people feelunsure of themselves.
People that get doctorates in,you know, are supposed to know
all I know.
People that have doctorates inchild development then they make
parents are like, oh my God, Idon't know what the hell to do.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Same, yeah, and it's true, and you know, I think
parents are looking for somesort of resource and this is why
parenting platforms, you know,do well.

(24:25):
But I think that if we can justshare the research and a parent
has to learn how to be attunedand understand their child
before anything else, that we'rereacting certain ways, you know
, with our child, then we'llnever parent the way that we
want to.
It doesn't matter what thebooks say, it doesn't matter if
you should have a timeout or not.
All these are really big andimportant conversations still
happening in the parenting world, and it was interesting for me
to come out of neuroscience andend up in this parenting world
because I you know, I didn'tknow what all these myths that

(24:47):
were going around or thesemisconceptions about parenting
are, all people pushing certainmodels that there's no backup to
these types of parenting.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
But in the end, you know, if you look at the
research, they talk about beingsensitive to your child's needs
and and like nurturing them, andand you know and this is what
I'm trying to push out there-yeah, and parenting is such an
interesting thing because whenyou start to look at the Western
version of parenting, we take acouple and actually in the US

(25:21):
and other places there's a lotof single parents that are given
this huge body ofresponsibility to meet the
emotional, the social, the motor, the cognitive and the material
needs of multiple kids withmultiple strengths and gifts
themselves all at once, andthat's a demand that is

(25:44):
fundamentally biologicallydisrespectful.
Yeah, and I keep pointing outto people that listen human
beings, we're animals.
I mean we're organizedphysiologically for a different
world than we've created, andthe world that our biology is

(26:04):
suited for was a multifamily,you know relatively small but
very relationally closecommunity.
You know multi-generationalmultifamily groups, and in those
groups there was alloparenting,there were multiple people who

(26:24):
were involved in modeling forchildren, in teaching children,
in disciplining children, inrewarding children, and so the
ratio of developmentally matureindividual that could play a
role in that alloparentingprocess was four to one.

(26:45):
And so we now have a world, theWestern world, where we're all
compartmentalized and we aresometimes, like I said, having
one parent and multiple youngkids that they're supposed to be
responsible for, and it's ademand that's unrealistic, it
wears out the parent, and it's ademand that's unrealistic.

(27:06):
It wears out the parent andbecause of the contagion of
human beings if the dominantperson in the caregiving
environment is overwhelmed andexhausted and disconnected, so
that they can then be their bestfor the children that they're
raising?
And then also, how do we, in amobile society that's parsed out

(27:39):
the way we are parsed out,everybody has their own little
home, their own little room, andyou live 200 miles away from
your parents.
And how do we create a familyof choice, right?
Can we engage the retiredcouple down the hall to be part
of our little child's life?
Can we find a community of youknow whether it's a community of

(28:01):
faith or a community ofactivity or something where our
kids can be around other people?
Because what would happen in ain sort of a relationally rich
hunter-gatherer clan is that thechild would basically in many
ways guide their own developmentbased upon their needs.

(28:23):
So if they were developingmotor skills faster than
same-age peers, there were lotsof places for them to do that.
They would just move to adifferent group of people in the
community to practice the motorskill.
And your development was notdetermined by your age.

(28:45):
It was determined by yourdevelopmental capabilities and
interests.
And in that group there werepeople who were good with motor
skills.
There were people that weregood with large motor skills.
There were people that weregood being funny.
There were people goodstorytellers, but not everybody
had to be all of that.
Right now, if you're a singleparent, you're supposed to be

(29:08):
good at throwing the ball, goodat teaching somebody how to knit
, good at showing art, good atnurturing, and then, oh, by the
way, you have to also disciplinethem, and so that is that
creates this impossible ask on aon a single parent, and I think
it's just overwhelming for alot of people.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
I find also there's some stigma in society where you
have a single parent who'strying to lean on their parents
so the children's grandparentsand they're trying to have some
time for themselves, they'retrying to better themselves and
then the society is like no, no,no, you can't lean on your
parents, you have to be workingby yourself and doing this
properly or you're not adequate,and I think that's such a

(29:50):
problem.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right, claudia
.
I think the stigma of there'stwo parts of that.
One is that even if you're notsort of leaning on X, you know
your family.
There's this weird guiltfeeling that people are given if
you're a parent, if you go toyour book club and you go work
out and you do the things thatkeep you healthy, then you're

(30:15):
somehow viewed as not beingpresent in parenting.
But if you don't take care ofyourself, you're not going to be
able to to be a present parentin a good way.
So I think that that first ofall, we have to get better at
allowing people to do that, andthat's a that's a pervasive
problem throughout our field,you know education, mental
health and all.
But then the other part is Ithink you're absolutely right

(30:37):
that there's this weird andunfair just perspective about
parenting that it's notrecognizing the importance of
alloparenting or the importanceof engaging others and relying
on others to help you parent.
And the truth is, nobody can dothis well by themselves.

(31:01):
It's just very, very hard.
I mean, even when you have apartner and resources and pretty
healthy kids, it's really hardto parent.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
This just puts a light on, like, the difficulties
of being a parent in a, youknow, in a socioeconomic
environment that's not veryadequate.
You know, being under povertyline.
How are you supposed to parent?
How are you supposed to takecare of yourself when you're,
you know, being under povertyline?
How are you supposed to parent?
How are you supposed to takecare of yourself when you're,
you know, working three jobs orhave three kids that all have
different health issues?
Like, how is it possible to bea good parent in this situation?

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah Well, we actually.
We've developed a measure tolook at the it's called the
caregiving challenge tool andit's basically what it is is a
very simple tool that we have afew items where we look at what
are the internal resources ofthe parent, you know, do they

(32:00):
have good mental health?
Do they have an education?
Are they physically healthy?
Are they in good relationships?
And then what are the externalresources?
Are they in connected toextended family community?
Do they have friends and otherpeople that participate?
So we kind of look at that andthen we balance that against the

(32:23):
demands of the children, right?
So the age of the child, thespecial needs of the child, the
number of children, and what wefind by and large is, if you are
, even if you have, a partnerand you have all of these
internal resources and all ofthe availability of external
resources, and then you havethree kids that are of average,

(32:46):
three kids that the typicalparent is essentially out of
balance in terms of havingenough reserve for their own
health, welfare and growth.
So, at baseline, the healthyWestern family with a partner in

(33:07):
the family, living in thefamily, helping with economic
supports and everything elsestill, is going to lead to
exhausted, burned out,overwhelmed parent who is the
primary parent taking care ofthe kids Wow, taking care of the
kids.
And then when you add in, ifyou then do, claudia, what
you're saying, that if you say,all right, I have a child who's

(33:34):
got special needs, I've got achild who's delayed because I
was exhausted or I have a littletrouble with substance abuse, I
have no connection to externalfamily, I have no friends.
When you start to look at a lotof these families that we work
with and see what few reservesthey have, the numbers we get
are just shocking.
I mean, it is so absolutelypredictable that they're going
to burn out and that they'regoing to feel inadequate and

(33:56):
overwhelmed and they're going tomanage that by usually
maladaptive things.
You know they're going to blunttheir pain with substance use,
they get more frustrated morefrequently, and so forth.
For me, one of the thingsthat's so frustrating is that we

(34:18):
get this no-transcript and thenwe show this to our child
protective community and they'llsee a mother who's got five or
six kids that are out of home.
All of them are kind ofstruggling.
They're all being managed indifferent settings with lots of
resources, and then the motheris stopped using and she's

(34:38):
starting to get her stuff backtogether and it's got a little
place to live.
And then the decision is islet's reunify, and they put all
those kids back in the house atthe same time, without any
external supports, and it's 100%predictable that this is going
to fail.
And we show them this time andtime and time again.
Finally, the systems we wereworking with, that we did this

(35:00):
tool with, they said we don'twant you to measure that anymore
, because once you measure it,it just shows how inadequate we
are.
They just they said we wouldrather not know.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
That's a bit ridiculous yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
And this is one of the questions I think both
Claudia and I had for you isgiven the amount of the number
of years and the amount ofresearch that you've put out
there and all the talks thatyou've given, the books you've
put out, why isn't our systemchanging Right?
Like I'm thinking about theeducation system, I'm thinking
about even our local healthcaresystem, our local, you know,

(35:35):
child protective services.
Nobody is following the system,when the research is clear in
our minds.
Why aren't we?
Why don't we have atrauma-informed healthcare
system with our kids?
Why are we still just labelingand looking at symptoms?
Why hasn't this changed yet?
I could imagine the frustrationon your end.

(35:55):
What are these barriers?

Speaker 1 (35:57):
First of all, let me just say you guys are young, you
know, and I was once young, andso to me, I have seen change.
Okay, now it's slow, but I haveseen change or any academic

(36:20):
meeting or any professional bodywhere there isn't some
conversation about equity, aboutthere's conversations about
trauma, there are conversationsabout now there's finally,
they're starting to talk aboutpositive experiences as well as
negative experiences.
So what happens is systems justare harder to change.

(36:46):
Let me just back up a second.
So if you learn a little bitabout biology and this is where
the science is really helpfulwhen you learn about the
physiology of any dynamic systemin the human body or any living
system, when the system gets toa certain equilibrium, there

(37:07):
are a whole bunch of mechanismsthat resist change, right.
So when you get stressed, thereare systems that put you back
in balance, right.
Those are our stress responsecapabilities, and most systems
have a very powerful set ofprocesses that keep things the
same.

(37:28):
Now, big systems even though wedon't think about them this way,
they're like biologicalorganisms.
Big sort of bureaucraticsystems are literally like big
organisms and they have lots ofways to maintain equilibrium for

(37:53):
the system, which means if youhave a hierarchical system that
is a carry forward of acolonizing, dominance-based,
power-based system.

(38:13):
It has all kinds of things thatwill keep power at the top, and
even when there's pressure fromthe outside to change or
internally to change, there areall kinds of mechanisms that
make people feel that diffusethe energy.
So big systems, when theyfinally realize they have to

(38:35):
focus on the trauma is a realthing, they'll do some crazy
bullshit like, oh, we're goingto have a trauma informed in
service, and then they check thebox and then they'll get away
For the next 10 years.
They'll get away with saying,well, we're trauma-informed, or
then the people will go that'snot enough.
It's not enough to have anequity in-service.

(38:56):
You really have to hire somepeople of color to be in
positions of leadership.
So then they'll pick one personto be on their board.
And so they have all theseincremental ways to diffuse
external energy and externalagents of change, because they
neutralize them and they'realways intending to maintain

(39:18):
their power and they're verysuccessful at it.
And all organizations do it bothconsciously and unconsciously,
and people don't recognize it.
You know, some of the mostcommon ways to maintain power
are in.
Academics is a perfect exampleof this.
Academics does this all thetime.
They'll have a consensus paneland they'll pull people together

(39:41):
and they'll get the usualsuspects and they might invite a
few people that are kind ofrepresentative of the groups
that they're trying to representor change or be kowtow to or
whatever they're trying to do,and for that period of time that
neutralizes, it's true, andafter a while people figure out
well, that didn't do it, nothinghas changed, you know, and the

(40:03):
same thing happens.
We passed civil rights laws, youknow, and the same thing
happens like we passed civilrights laws, you know, 50 plus
years ago, but we still haveissues around equity, racism and
so forth.
And so people are finallyrecognizing hey, wait a minute,
you know, we pass this civilrights or the voting act, right,
you know, voting rights lawsand all these things, and and
and, and.
For a while government checkedthe box and said what are you

(40:24):
saying?
We're racist.
And then people wake up and gowait a minute, wait a minute,
you are racist.
And then they get angry andthen they go oh, you know what?
Maybe we won't do advertisingwith this company that does bad
stuff, or we'll do that.
And then people go oh, yeah,okay.
So the outrage isused and ittakes a while to build up again.

(40:45):
And all big systems, whateverthe topic is, whether it's
trauma or learn about attachment, or misogyny or the Me Too
thing the bullshit that getstolerated in these systems to
maintain power is outrageous.
You know.
You see, look at Jeff Epstein,you know there's look at Jeff
Epstein, you know like there'sexamples of it all around.

(41:08):
And I think part of what peopleneed to recognize is that as
long as our systems are justexplicit and overt
manifestations of traditionalcolonial systems you know
manifestations of traditionalcolonial systems, you know
structure we won't be able tosolve that problem.

(41:29):
We literally I don't want to sayblow things up.
But if we could reorganizethings from the bottom up, it
would be a lot easier thantaking the existing system and
trying to reorganize it the waywe want it, and that's part of
the problem.
Now, fortunately, in the US,for example, there are a number
of places that are working onreorganizing the child welfare
system and of course, what willhappen is this is going to be a

(41:50):
10-year process where they'vealready convened and they
explicitly say we're going tochange the child welfare system,
we shouldn't do it this way, weshouldn't do it that way.
And then they have meetings andthey publish papers and they
have a special thing in thisorganization.
And then you look 10 yearslater, you go wait a minute, did
we really change?
And you go, fuck, no, we didn'tchange, it's the same exactly
Same shit.

(42:11):
It's got a different name right,and so this is part of what we
have to confront.
We have to keep callingbullshit on these processes.
But the dilemma is this Ifyou're in academics or if you're
in any policymaking position,any position of influence, we're
human beings.
We're so vulnerable to being oh, I got invited to the White

(42:33):
House, and so the White House,for example, one of the favorite
mechanisms of power is to havea White House dinner and a White
House conference, and 20 yearsago they had a White House
conference on early childhoodbrain development.
Only because Rob Reiner pushedthe issue and they invited
people like me and Terry, youknow, t Barry Brazelton, and we

(42:55):
talked about this and BillClinton shook our hands and
patted us on the back and, oh,this is so important.
And 20 years later nothing haschanged.
But it diffused the power.
It diffused sort of the energythat was being mobilized to
change these systems.
Now I don't want to say nothinghas changed because little
things have changed.
You know, in California theypassed some laws to fund early

(43:17):
childhood programs and there's alot of really good things
evolving and you know there arethings that happen, but it's
very slow, in part because weare fighting this.
To many people it's an invisibleset of systems, but if you step
outside the system, this ishighly visible.

(43:38):
So when I stepped out of theconventional academic world, I'm
like, wait a minute, no wonderthis never works.
It's the same damn peoplecreating an echo chamber.
They meet together, they pateach other on the back, they say
they're addressing equity ortrauma or attachment or whatever
, and they publish a few things.
And they publish the same study50 times.

(43:59):
And rather than actually going,hey, why don't we actually go
spend some time with the Creewomen and see how they raise
their children and learn alittle bit about real
attachment-based behaviors andhow you know co-sleeping and how
do they handle that?
And they would, god forbid welearn anything from them.
We have to go tell them how toraise their kids.

(44:22):
Anyway, I could go on and on.
I'm sorry.
Well, I could go on and on, I'msorry.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, I had experienced something similar.
I was when I was working at theMental Health Institute here in
Montreal.
We had a program that we weretrying to get into some of the
native, like the reserves herein Canada, and I had, for the
first time in my life, jumped ona call with some of these
people leading these communitiesand they were like we don't
want to be part of your stupidprogram.

(44:46):
And I was like what do you mean?
Like I was a naive, like youknow, 20, 30 year old or
whatever I was at that time.
But I was like why we're goingto help bring, you know, mental
health, you know, resources toyour community and this should
be an important you know thingfor you.
And they're like no, it'sbullshit, because we've done
this so many times and all theseprojects come into our
communities and tell us they'regoing to do something and then

(45:07):
five years pass and nothing haschanged.
And they've used our names ontheir papers and they've tried
to, you know, do whatever it wasand nothing has changed.
And we still have high suiciderates and high levels of abuse
within the community and nothingis changing.
So I completely get that and Ithink that's a big part of the
conversation we need to have.
I love how it went into thisdirection, but you know it's

(45:29):
part of the whole parent, butit's part of this parenting
conversation and the changesthat we want to see.
You know, I one of the things Iwanted to bring up there were
two things that marked me duringyour talk at McGill.
You mentioned you touched onthis a little bit with the
connectedness and I'll get tothat in a second but first was
how you got into all of this andI'd like to play-based work

(45:49):
with kids and trying to helpthem with their cognitive skills
.
And I remember I was pregnantwith my third child and this one
child that I was working with Iwas told he's very dangerous.

(46:12):
He has, you know, oppositionaldefiant disorder and he urinates
on people and you know we'regiving him as a client, you know
you're going to work with him,but we just want you to to be
safe.
And I remember being reallyscared of this seven-year-old
boy and and going into this roomand you know seeing all these
toys and now are they going tobe used, you know, against me

(46:33):
and am I going to get hurt?
And I, I'm pregnant and and amonth and a half two months
later it came out during playthat he was being physically
abused within his home by hisfather and it just marked me
like how he was on heavymedication because of the
disorder that he had beendiagnosed with.
And it wasn't that, it was morethan that.

(46:54):
Somebody should have questionedwhat was going on in the home.
So, anyways, I just wanted toshare that because that that
changed everything I did withCurious Neuron.
It wasn't about playing anymoreand just like talking to the
child, it was about talking tothe parent now and showing them
that the environment makes adifference on their child.
But, claudia, would you like toshare that story, because you
had a story as well that Ireally appreciated, yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
So just doing my PhD work in suicide and depression
and child abuse brings me into alot of contact with the general
public as well as parents and alot of parents who are taking
care of children who are adoptedfrom very abusive homes.
So particularly I worked veryclosely with a mother who is

(47:36):
bringing a case againstbasically our child protective
services here in Quebec becauseher daughter, who was adopted
from the US, was abused severelyin multiple different realms of
abuse, from zero to five yearsold and she is, you know, she's
diagnosed with oppositional,defiant disorder, conduct

(47:57):
disorder, adhd, all of these youknow DSM-5 diagnoses.
But nobody asked, like what theabuse like changed in her brain
, what is really fundamentallydifferent about this girl's
brain?
And so the mother is workingreally hard to bring

(48:17):
neuroscience into herpsychiatrist's office, like her
child's psychiatrist's office,and they're really against it.
They don't want to hear.
They don't want to hear it.
You know like I would send herstudies, she would read them,
she would talk about it with herchild's psychiatrist.
Don't want to hear it.
But why, like?
Why?
I don't understand Well that'sinteresting.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
I just got off a call with a bunch of people in
Cleveland who are social workers, who had been in public systems
, who left those systems and arenow in a special project to be
assigned to community recreationcenters.

(49:01):
So they're going to be.
They're kind of the mentalhealth's presence at a
traditional community rec centerwhere kids will go.
And in Cleveland there's a lotof communities, lots of poverty,
community violence and so forth.
So the idea is that theirunderstanding and experience in
the area of trauma and mentalhealth will be a good support to

(49:24):
what's going on recreationallythere.
Anyway, that matches a lot withthe big project we have with
Nike and some other people insport.
But one of the things we talkedabout was the dilemma of the
well-trained clinician who, likeif you go into social work or
you go into whatever our fields,you learn about things that we

(49:49):
realize are very important tounderstanding people and and
helping people.
But the systems, going back tothe systems are structured in a
way that forces people topractice differently than
they're trained.
So there's a very, very fewchild psychiatrists that are

(50:12):
trained to just see kids andprescribe, see kids diagnosed
and prescribed, but that's whatmost of them are doing.
And so when you're in asituation where there's
dissonance between what youthink is best for kids and the
way you're forced to practiceBecause you know what you got to
pay a mortgage you got to, youknow you have to make a living

(50:33):
you don't see any other way topractice child psychiatry except
the way I'm being told topractice by.
You know, and I can tell youthat most people that are
trained in child psychiatry wantto practice differently than
they're forced to in thesesystems.
So what happens is, after awhile, there's a few ways that
you can survive an environmentlike that because it's a true

(50:56):
moral injury and just kind ofrobotically do your work, using
dissociation as an adaptivemechanism, or you sort of allow
your cognitive distortions totake place and you start to
believe that I'm only doingevidence-based practice.

(51:16):
And oh, there's tons ofevidence.
And there is no evidence thatmost of these medications work,
by the way, and in fact there'sevidence to the contrary.
I don't want to get into that.
So when they're presented withsomething that challenges their
little sort of delusional bubble, they don't want to see it,

(51:38):
they really don't want to see it, and so what they'll do is
they'll ignore it and then, ifthey can't ignore it, they'll
attack it, because they'll saywhat's the evidence?
That's bad evidence, and theirony is there's no evidence
that shows that what they'redoing is prescribing five
medications.
But that's what happens.
People end up and I don't wantto call it brainwashing, but
it's very similar cognitively towhat happens to people that get

(52:01):
into an inescapable,unavoidable cognitive trap and
they have to start believingthat what I'm doing is the right
way or it would just drive themcrazy.
So that's what I think ishappening.
I think that people toleratebad practice in the beginning
and then, over time, they startto actually think that it's good

(52:23):
practice and then, when they'reconfronted with stuff that
challenges it, they don't wantto see it.
They just don't want to see it,Especially if it's presented by
somebody who's not a physician.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
That's true.
Yes, I'm putting myself, youknow, I'm placing myself in the
shoes of parents that arelistening right now.
And if they themselves are inthis position where they did
experience childhood adversityand are noticing now that this
is showing up in their emotiondysregulation with their child
and they might not have themeans to get some help or get

(52:56):
some therapy, what can they doat this point?
Um and this perhaps will touchupon that point you mentioned
during the mcgill, which was theconnectedness but what can they
do?
And if it is connectedness, howcan we, like you said, in the

(53:16):
society where we're really insilos, we're in our homes and
we're not getting together likewe used to do?
Even I think about like mygrandmother talking about like
kids never coming in andeverybody?
just hanging out outside and herkids going to people's houses
and coming back later.
I don't know, like even justthat, like a couple of years ago
, but how do we move forwardwith this?

Speaker 1 (53:31):
That's really such a good question and here's the
message I want everybody to hearis that people get better when,
without necessarily havingconventional therapy, you can
get better.
And the key to getting betteris almost always connected to or
related to your ability to findpeople in your life who can be

(53:55):
present and nonjudgmental andkind and patient and
understanding.
And some people are very luckyto be able to create that and
find that.
Sometimes they find it in acommunity of faith, sometimes
they find that in byreconnecting to their culture.
You know, starting to go intopowwows and starting to be part

(54:18):
of that world and and and therelationships and the meals and
the laughter and the dancing,those things will help you heal.
But it really is hard if youdon't have a little coaching or
don't have a little bit of helpright, so I would.
You know I always encouragepeople to reach out a little bit

(54:40):
, even though there are not alot of resources.
You know the mental healthsystem in the US and I know in
Canada it's really stretched.
You know there's like longwaiting lists and a lot of times
when you do get in, you knowyou don't necessarily get
somebody who's going to beperfect for you and that sort of
thing.
But there are places where youcan connect to people who may

(55:05):
have similar experiences, andthat's one of the positive
things about web-based stuff.
There are several kind ofcommunities of survivors of
either domestic violence orsurvivors of residential school
experience, of residentialschool experience.

(55:25):
There are communities outonline that might be worth
exploring as a start to makethose connections.
And then I always reallyencourage people to think about
their own extended family.
Who's healthy in your extendedfamily?
Was there an uncle?
Is there a grandparent?

(55:46):
You know are?
Are some of these peoplepresent in did?
Was there a an old teacher?
What did you have?
A coach?
Did you know what?
Whatever it is, if you find acommunity where you belong
whether it's, you know, I'mgoing to do community theater or
I'm going to do whatever it isthat's where the healing can

(56:08):
start and that's a reallyimportant thing.
Part of the dilemma is that andwe all are in this we're all in
a rut.
Everybody that I know, even themost mindful, whatever Buddh,
buddhist, whatever they're intheir mindfulness rut, we're all
in ruts.
The inertia of doing what youhave been doing is so powerful

(56:32):
that if your world has beengetting smaller and smaller and
smaller.
That's one of the first thingsthat happens when you're a
parent is your world starts toget smaller.
Yeah, true.
And then the inertia of beingso tired at the end of the day,
day that, oh God, I'm not goingto call this group or I'm not
going to, I'm not going to go tomy book club or I'm not going
to go to exercise because you'reso damn tired.

(56:53):
But if you, you've got to do it,you know, and it helps if
you've got a partner right, findone person that's a friend or
somebody who you can go, startgetting out of these ruts and
that will help a lot.
But but a lot of people who feelwho've had developmental trauma
or other kinds of trauma noware parenting.
They're very uncomfortable andreluctant to reach out to other

(57:17):
people and um, and so itsometimes it's tough, it's tough
, but I would encourage peopleto to be um, even tiny steps,
little steps, you know, even ifit's just volunteering at a
local, uh, soup kitchen.
The reason I say that is thatone of the things that I think

(57:42):
many people who have beeninjured developmentally, they
have a certain kind of gift ofempathy that comes from knowing
what it feels like to bemarginalized or injured or
misunderstood and that when theycan then go into an environment
where that knowledge and theirpresence can help other people.

(58:07):
I think that's a healingexperience and so I would
encourage that.
Find somebody who you can dosomething for you with whatever
you like to do, and then findsomething that you can do
something for someone else, andI think both of those things
will be therapeutic.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
I think that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Yeah, and I think it's.
At least it's something thatparents can start applying today
and, like you said, baby steps,small steps if you have to you
don't have to be part of everycommunity group tomorrow, but
just at least try to get out andconnect with people.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
And one really good way to do this is to find two or
three other young parents andbasically swap child care.
You know, just say, listen,we're going to have a, I don't
have any money to pay for ababysitter, but listen, how
about if one night a week I getto go out and you watch my kids?
And one night a week, you knowyou get to go out and I'll watch

(59:00):
your kids?
And just even that tinybeginning of an opportunity to
just even, you know, to connectwith somebody around shared
babysitting is a good step,because everybody wants to know
that they're.
You know you are not alone.
You are in this together.
There are lots of other parentsthat are struggling with this

(59:22):
stuff.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
That's actually our most popular part of Curious
Neuron.
It's called You're Not Alone.
On Sundays, parents get to postsomething on Instagram.
They fill in the blank Am I theonly one?
You know who?
Blank?
And then they'll put stuff,they'll add whatever.
They think they are alone, youknow.
And then they realize 87% ofparents are experiencing this,

(59:43):
or you know 75 are experiencingthat.
And then they realize 87% ofparents are experiencing this,
or you know 75 are experiencingthat.
And then they realize, well, Iam, I'm not alone, I, I, I am
connected to all these peoplethat are experiencing the same
thing, and just that makes youfeel different.
In that moment, when you thinkyou're the only one whose child
doesn't want to go to bed atnight, and then you realize you
know 99% of us are experiencingthe same thing, then you, it's

(01:00:04):
different, you approach thatsituation differently.
I.
Our conversation is comingclose to an end, unfortunately,
um, but I, I am curious aboutthe other side of that.
Um, we spoke about the parent,but now I want to bring it to
the child.
Um, because I have been gettingin the past three months a lot
of messages from parents whosaid, who tell me that the

(01:00:26):
environment within their home iseither verbally aggressive or
physically aggressive as aresult of, you know, having been
home with their partner, or thestress, you know, during the
pandemic, and I'm thinking ofthe children now that are in
this environment.
How can we, or what?

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
sort of information can we give parents if their
child is in this environment andnow they're fearing their
child's future and the impact ontheir development?
Well, here's the most importantthing is number one every
parent has episodes where theydo things that probably are not
ideal for their kid Every parent.
And number two either repairing, reassuring, apologizing you

(01:01:18):
know, when you have a big fight,and it's all crazy, it's
important and it's powerful andit helps your child.
If you talk with them, saylisten, you know, but the key is
kind of do it when you'recalmer and reassure the child

(01:01:38):
that listen.
This stuff happens.
Everybody gets upset.
You're safe.
We both love you.
Just give them whatever messageyou want to give them, and it
doesn't have to go on and on andon.
Just do that.
And the bottom line, though, isthat the brain is malleable, and
if your child lives throughchallenging times, there will be

(01:02:03):
opportunities for thosechallenging times to be buffered
by having different kinds ofpredictable, controllable
positive experiences.
And again, just reassure peoplethat listen.
Every single person on thisplanet grows up with some crap.

(01:02:24):
I mean, it just happens.
You cannot get through lifeunscathed, and it's just kind of
how you handle it, how youcounterbalance these things and
don't underestimate the power ofrepair.
Communication and relationshipis all about rupture and repair,
and so when there is a rupture,just repair it, and I think

(01:02:46):
that that can go a long waystowards creating a pattern of
stress activation that's morepredictable, more controllable,
that ultimately leads toresilience as opposed to
vulnerability.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
So one of the questions I actually wanted to
get an answer to is how can wehelp build resilience in our
children?
So in your books you mentioneda lot of moderate, predictable
stress.
What form can that take withina household?

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
I'm glad you asked that, claudia.
Fortunately for most of us, thetraditional educational
environment has lots ofcontrollable and moderate
stressors and there ispredictability.
You know when you're going togo and you know.
You know if you have a testevery Friday in math, you know
that that's going to happen.

(01:03:32):
So, and the controllable partis, you know I'm going to do
better on, it's going to be lessstressful if I actually study,
you know.
So those things can help createresilience, but so can being in
the band, and so can being insport, and so can being in any
kind of other school-basedactivity drama or whatever you

(01:03:54):
like to do.
These things create challenges,but they're moderate challenges
and they're usually in arelational environment where
you're part of a community, youknow you're part of a team,
you're part of a, you knowyou're part of the trumpets and
you know you're part of, youknow, the theater group, and
that allows opportunities forforming relational connections

(01:04:17):
that help buffer some of thesechallenges.
So kids that have the benefitof after-school activities are
going to have more opportunitiesto build resilience, and I
think that that's something thatparents can always support.
Now, I mean, there are timeswhen they're not always ideal.

(01:04:39):
You might not have a greatcoach and you can have a bad
experience, but by and largethese can be pretty good
experiences.
The other thing is that youknow normal development is
filled with leaving your comfortzone, which activates your
stress response, tryingsomething new and then going

(01:05:01):
back into your comfort zone andbeing reassured.
And then going back into yourcomfort zone and being reassured
.
So anything that the parent doeswith the child like I'm going
to teach you how to fish, I'mgoing to teach you how to hunt,
I'm going to teach you how totrack, I'm going to teach you
how to knit, I'm going to teachyou how to work in a car

(01:05:22):
Anything that you have yourchild kind of do with you has a
lot of opportunities for you toprovide sort of relationally
supported opportunities for themto leave their comfort zone,
try something new under yourguidance, right?
No, no, no, no.
Turn to the right.
Turn to the right, no, no no,no.
Yeah, turn to the right.
Okay, you got it.
Little things like that havethem shadow you when you cook,

(01:05:46):
have thematter you when you doall working around the house.
And it's so funny because inthe beginning, right, you know
the little, you know my son.
Oh yeah, come on, I want to dothe lawnmower.
I want to do the lawnmower.
And then, after he learns howto do it, he's like, oh God, we
get the lawnmower out and he'ddisappear.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Nope, not doing this.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Yeah, exactly so.
It's like it's no longer aresilience building experience,
dad.
But that's the kind of thingthat you want to do, right?
Include your kids in all theselittle things that you do, even
if it's stuff like shopping orgoing to pick up your laundry.
Shopping or going to pick upyour laundry, or, you know, go
in and buy me a, you know, gobuy this and go get the change,

(01:06:33):
you know, and you can be overthere watching them and they can
get it, say thank you.
All these little things, littlepredictable things, where you
give them an opportunity toleave their comfort zone, and
that helps build resilience.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Amazing.
That just gave me a flashbackof this past summer.
My five and seven year oldasked can we ride a bicycle like
three, four houses down?
They had never left, like justour little driveway or space,
without having us beside themand I'll never forget the image
of them being at the fourthhouse and turning around and
high-fiving each other, thatthey're so far away from the
house.
But they were, were just so.

(01:07:03):
They were in their, their happy, you know, space of like mommy
and daddy are so far, but it wasreally cute to see that they
want to try to push thoseboundaries and to test them out
and but feel safe within that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Exactly, yeah, and that's, and that's kind of what
development's all about.
Right, you know that, little bylittle, they.
You know that, little by little, they, you know they push to
cut their, their comfort zone.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
And someday they're going to wave to you when they
go off to Europe and you knowthey're going to say see, ya,
That'll be harder for me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Exactly that's.
That's the thing.
It's definitely harder forparents.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
I guess, to close this conversation, what is it
that you wish all new parentswould know from your own
research and work?

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
that isn't being said enough to recognize that
there's power in just being withyour child, just being present

(01:08:08):
with your child and enjoyingthose moments you know you don't
have to push them to do this orto do that Just kind of
luxuriate in the moment and it'sthose moments of connection
that are in the end going to becreate this glue and a sense of
safety that will allow yourchild to feel good leaving this

(01:08:32):
comfort zone.
So when your boys sort ofhigh-fived and got to the edge
of the known universe, they didthat because you had instilled
in them a sense of safety andthat's such an important thing
that your presence and yourattention is incredibly

(01:08:55):
important in building changes tothe biology of their brain.
It front loads them and givesthem kind of a neurobiological
inoculation so that they canhandle stressors later on in
life.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
I think that's great advice and I love the idea of
just being present.
It's something so small andsimple in theory, but it's
actually so difficult to dothese days, with our phones and
emails going off all the timeand thinking about where we have
to be at 6 pm, our phones andemails going off all the time
and thinking about where we haveto be at 6 pm.
Just being present, I feel likejust, even with your partner,

(01:09:32):
with your kids, I feel like it'sjust one of the most important
things that we can do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
It is important and, as you pointed out, it's one of
the hardest things to do in ourmodern world that's so filled
with distractors.
Right, and human beings arevery visually biased creatures
and so when we have these littlescreens on and this on and that
on, it's so easy to just getpulled out of an interaction and
look at your text.
But that moment that's a littlerupture that you've got to

(01:09:56):
repair and so that, again, tosort of make it easier for you
to be present, one of the thingsthat you do want to do is
minimize screen presence whenyou're having these little
moments.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Because there aren't many, especially with the
newborn.
My brother-in-law just had achild and they sleep a lot,
right, and I told him, wheneveryour baby's awake, just be
present in those moments.
And I think many new parentswill often send me messages
asking like what toy should Ibuy?
Or should I buy these highcontrast cards?
I don't know, I didn't havethose.
But in the end it's not aboutthe toys, it's you, the parent.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Exactly, you are the best toy your child could ever
get.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to
chat with Claudia and.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
I my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
I enjoyed this conversation so much.
Thank you for the work that youdo and I hope that in the next
15 years we can see a lot moreof those little changes within
our systems.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
We will, we will.
You know, listen, first of all,the fact that you've been doing
this.
You know, the curious neuron isan example of positive change.
You know, in the rightdirection it's happening.
It just we what we have.
We have to recognize that we'reinvolved in a transgenerational
problem-solving process, right,you know these are big issues

(01:11:13):
that we're dealing with and youknow it takes a while to solve
some of these things, to changethese and we're so used to
immediate fixing of all ourproblems.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
that fixing of all our problems, that yeah, it's
it's it's.
It's nice to put in place justthe idea of transgenerational
change.
Yeah, it's like we can't justlook at our moment, but our
parents are our grandchildrenexactly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
And if we, if we do a good job and we change the
direction of positive change,even two or three degrees in the
right direction, you know, in acouple generations that's 25
degrees and that's that's a bigchange.
So keep pushing, don't give up.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Claudia, are you on as much of a high as I am right
now?
I am, we just had her right.
I mean to me that was like justthe highlight of my life.
I mean there's my kid's birthand my wedding and all that, but
then there's Dr Bruce Perryyeah, it was very cool.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
I will never forget this moment.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Yeah, he was so down to earth and we were lucky
enough to have a conversationwith him before and after the
recording as well and, you know,maybe we can like summarize a
little bit about thatconversation that we had with
him.
So, if you're a parent andlistening to this and just skip
to the end, this is a good partto listen to and I think that
there were a few things thatmarked me.
There's a question that came infrom a mom and she was asking

(01:12:35):
me she wanted to ask him how torepair or reverse the trauma
caused to her infant due to herpostpartum depression, that she
suffered a lot from this and shefelt that she wasn't being a
good mom and wasn't connected toher child.
And you know, first I think Iwould approach that with the
whole community and connectionpart right, like she, hopefully

(01:12:57):
this person listening andanybody else who's listening.
It's not your fault if you havepostpartum depression or anxiety
and yes, we hear a lot aboutthe research, including from
Curious Neuron, that that couldimpact the relationship or the
attachment with your childbecause you might be a bit more
disconnected.
But once you take care ofyourself and you're okay, do it

(01:13:18):
from either therapy or community.
He spoke about that connectedpart and being part of a
community somehow, whether it'sreligious or spiritual or
cultural or whatever it is,neighbors and getting together
with friends and people.
So take care of yourself first.
But also I think, like for me,that that connects with the
whole rupture and repair that hespoke of.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
Yeah.
So I think as long as you, youknow, pay attention and that
like already this mom is askingthe question, so she's already
like very vigilant about youknow how her attachment to her
child's going to be or how youknow her child's going to
develop in this world, so Ithink already that's a great,
you know, prospect for the childin general being in this
amazing home.
And I think it's just importantto realize that, like Dr Bruce

(01:14:03):
Perry says, like you can rupturesomething.
So, for example, not be sopresent in the beginning stages
of your child's life and justrepair that.
He mentioned just being presentwith your kid, taking your kid
to the grocery store with youand asking them to pick
something off the shelf.
These are moments of connectionthat can repair any sort of
disattachment that you mighthave with your child that can

(01:14:25):
repair any sort of disattachmentthat you might have with your
child.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
And I think it comes back to a question that is often
asked where they say, like,okay, stress is not good for a
child not in all cases, as wehad this conversation with him
but then what's the range Like?
What is bad and how bad is itand how often does it have to
happen?
You know, when it comes tosleep training, for example,
parents will often ask me issleep training bad or good?
Is it damaging my child?
Are they, you know, is thissomething that's going to impact

(01:14:51):
them until they're adults?
But from what he said, there's,even if a child experiences
something more traumatic, thereare ways to fix it and to help
that child through connectednessand through being part of that
community.
So it's back to that rupture.
You know there's something thathappened to you as a child.
Then repair work on the repairpart and we don't have to worry

(01:15:13):
about such little things.
You know, like, sometimes I'llget emails from a mom who says I
had to go to the bathroom andmy child cried for like 10
minutes or five minutes orwhatever it was, and they feel
guilty and we do.
I experienced it myself too,with my first child.
It's like you never want todisconnect yourself.
But now I think from what Ilearned from him is those little

(01:15:33):
moments don't matter, there's arupture, repair and that's okay
.
Show your child that they'restill safe and there's security
in that environment.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
Yeah, and a big point that he brought up too is like,
if something bad does happenlike, for example, you're
fighting in front of your kid oryou had to, you know, go to the
bathroom while they're cryingyou just come back and say, oh
sorry, I had to go to thewashroom and mom needed to take
care of herself.
You know, like that's importanttoo.
What can I help you with?
Now, you know, like you're ableto have this dialogue with your

(01:15:59):
child yeah, Maybe they're notgoing to understand every word
you're saying if they're atwo-year-old, but just, you know
, as they age, you're going tobe more accustomed to this back
and forth dialogue of okay,something ruptured, how do we
repair it together?

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
And your communication, your body
language, your tone is verydifferent, right, when you're
calmer, and you're so, even ifyou just show them like I'm calm
now, everything's okay, you'resafe, I'm safe, it's fine Just
to have those conversations.
It's interesting we were before.
We were discussing like threepoints and that's what stood out
to us.
You know, that communityconnection part, that rupture
and repair, but also that it'snot like it's not the parents'

(01:16:36):
fault.
We put so much pressure onourselves and to me it just.
I hope parents that arelistening, and all of you
listening, realize that, likewe're not, we cannot control
every single aspect of ourchild's life, but we can be
present as much as we can whenwe can with them and that does

(01:16:57):
help nurture that resiliencepart too.
That resilience part, yeah,absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
I think it's a systemic problem that we have,
in a sense that our society doesnot support new families.
Our society does not provideenough universal basic income.
There are so many studies thatshow you give every person an
amount of money it doesn't haveto be a huge amount of money
either, and it cuts costs onhealthcare.

(01:17:23):
It cuts costs on mentalhealthcare.
It cuts costs on basically anynegative aspect that we have in
society.
There's studies on this and,like Dr Perry was saying, it's
systemic change over generations.
So it's not.
I want to reiterate what yousaid.
It's not a parent's fault ifthey can't handle everything
that's coming their way.

(01:17:43):
There's just so many things weneed to balance as humans, and
then you have a life of a childon your hands as well.
He said everyone's burnt out.
It's something we know andwe're trying to change it, but
it's a systemic problem.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Be an advocate, not just for your child.
So if they're in the system atschool and you know that it's a
dysregulation issue and you knowthat they need a bit more
support when it comes to theiremotions, just be the advocate
for them.
You know the research you'refollowing Kirstner on and you've
heard all the studies that weshare and we'll share some of
the notes as well for you tohave.
But Dr Perry's work, his books,everything just reminds us that

(01:18:21):
we do have to think about oursystem, even as our nervous
system, even as parents.
You know, if you've beenyelling a lot, it's not that
there's something wrong with you.
I don't want you to fall intothis guilt sort of cycle, but
just start thinking about wherethat's coming from.
Why is that happening?
And that's something I hadlearned.
I have this superhypersensitive and actually we
didn't talk to him about thatbut this hypersensitive stress

(01:18:42):
system where you know you drop apencil, I jump.
But it came from.
Now I understand it came fromhow I was raised and the anxiety
that was an environment from avery young age and I brought
that on and I react verydifferently than, let's say, my
partner, my husband.
But now we understand that it'sjust because of our upbringing
and it's okay.

(01:19:02):
It doesn't mean that we'redamaged for life.
But understanding your ownsystem really helps you when
you're parenting, because thenyou could I know.
Now for myself I need to takedeep breaths before reacting to
my child, and that's why I sharethis kind of research.
You know like we have tounderstand our nervous system.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
And Dr Perry actually brought it up right Is that you
have to regulate yourselfbefore you can regulate your kid
, and it just made me think ofWonder Grade.
I was like, wow, we havesomething for this.
Yeah, it's true.
Yes, I was like there'ssomething that exists already.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Exactly, and that's why I often talk with Christy.
I actually want to bring on thepodcast, but we have all these
systems that talk aboutmindfulness and for kids, kids,
and here are some books for kidsand some stuffed animals that
will calm them down, but nobodysays you as a parent have a role
in this, a really, really bigrole.
So what we're doing is we'reputting all these again

(01:19:54):
band-aids on on a child who'sdysregulated and we're saying
just breathe and everything willbe fine.
But there's so much more tothat.
And if the parent is in thehome and environment and they're
dysregulated but they're tryingto teach their child to
regulate themselves, it's, it's,it's going again, it's
head-butting, you know of tryingto change things.
So we do it's hard.
It's so hard as a parent wehave enough on our hands and

(01:20:15):
then you hear this thing of likework on yourself.
It's like, well, I don't wantto because I'm tired and but
it's little baby steps.
I had started with journalingand noticing what I responded to
and how I responded to certainthings, and just that was an eye
opener.
It's like oh okay, I'msensitive to and I think I've
spoken about this before but I'msensitive to certain noises, or

(01:20:36):
noise by 4 or 5 pm.
My system gets dysregulatedvery easily with the noise or
like lots of hugging.
By the end of the day I'm like,oh okay, I need my space, and
just being aware of that changeshow I'm responding.
So I think we do need to keephaving this conversation and be
an advocate for your child andfor yourself.
If you need a break, find a wayto get a break.
Don't let anyone lead you tobelieve that it's selfish, and

(01:21:00):
I'm so glad we had thatdiscussion with him.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
Yeah, there's no shame in taking time for
yourself and regulating yourself, and like that's almost more
important than trying to figureout how to regulate your kid.
If you're not regulated, youcan't regulate your kid.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
Yeah, I'm curious before we we end this, this was
a longer episode but it was justtoo good.
I loved this conversation somuch I'm literally I don't think
I'll sleep tonight.
But the.
I loved this conversation somuch I'm literally I don't think
I'll sleep tonight.
But the.
You know I'm curious with yourown research and what we learned
from him and you.
You've read his books and hisresearch, like I have.
What do you use from his workand research in your own

(01:21:35):
research or is there anythingthat, like has informed you or
helped you do or think aboutsomething differently?

Speaker 3 (01:21:41):
Yeah, so, um, I work on post-mortem human brain so I
can't take it word for word whathe's saying and use it in my
own research.
But one thing I find that hiswork specifically has really
helped me with is when I gopresent my research and the
topic of child abuse is outthere in the public, I always
get people that come and saylike, am I too late?

(01:22:02):
Can I still fix myself?
I experienced this as a child,you know.
They tell me their, theirheartaches and and their, their
trauma from being a child andthey say how can what?
What do I do?
Like I've tried antidepressants,they're not working.
I've tried this treatment, thattreatment.
It's not working.
My therapist doesn't believe methat it's, you know, not ADHD
or something like that.
How do I deal with this?

(01:22:23):
And I'm like, honestly, I'm not.
I'm not able to answer yourquestion specifically, but I
really suggest you look into DrBruce Perry's work and the
neuro-sequential model, which wedidn't touch too much on today,
but it basically is just goingback to the basics, like that
layered cake that he was talkingabout, is trying to figure out
what's going on in the bottomlayer, in the brainstem, in the

(01:22:44):
regulatory system of our body,what's going on there and how
can we then fix that andrecuperate the damage and then
move on to higher functioning,like you know, sitting in class
and listening.
So that's kind of how his workhas impacted mine is just being
able to communicate with thegeneral public honestly and

(01:23:06):
people who share their stories.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Because he's broken it down.
I know he said scientists orneuroscientists wouldn't like
his layer cake.

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
But I actually exactly, because I think we
always have to take complex, youknow, neuroscientific topics
and try to find a way that itmakes sense to everyone.
And that's a perfect example.
I was looking at that imagelast night of his model and it
just makes sense.
If we look at her child, who'sdysregulated, screaming and
crying, and we're like thisdoesn't make sense.

(01:23:34):
Or look, you asked for the redcup and now you're crying or or
trying to reason with them, inthat moment there's no point.
So if we just realize thatthere's like this three-layered
system and that we have to getto their like sensory system or
just trying to regulate them atthe core, and then that goes to
the emotion part of the brainand that goes to the cortex and
rational thinking, then we couldjust visualize or we see our

(01:23:57):
child very differently.
Now we understand why they'renot listening to us, because
they can't reason or ration inthat moment.
It's just to them.
They're emotional and they'reupset and dysregulated and
that's it.
It makes sense to their system.
Um, but really, really beingaware of all that, I think is
just.
I, all new parents have to knowthis.
I'm so happy we had thisconversation thanks for having
me, thanks for joining me yes,thank you for joining me and and

(01:24:21):
thank you to everyone who'slistening.
Please take a moment.
You have to now.
You have no choice but to ratethe Curious Neuron podcast,
because this was an amazingepisode.
Please rate it and leave areview, and don't forget to send
me an email at info atcuriousneuroncom.
Follow us on Instagram atcurious underscore neuron.
We're also on Facebook with thesame handle and you can now

(01:24:42):
follow us on YouTube.
This video, if you're listeningon the podcast, either on
iTunes or Spotify or AmazonMusic, you can watch this video
on YouTube as well, and I thinkthat's all.
I think.
You can also visit the websitekirstenroncom and we will see
you next week.
Bye, thank you.

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