Supporting emotional development through play with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson

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The episode delves into the critical role of play in both parental and child emotional development. Tina Payne Bryson shares insights from her book, *The Way of Play*, emphasizing how engaging in playful interactions can foster emotional intelligence and resilience in children while helping parents regulate their own stress.

• Exploring the connection between play and emotional development
• Importance of parental emotional well-being
• Practical strategies for incorporating play into parenting
• Understanding play as a tool for resilience building
• The role of scaffolding in teaching emotional management
• Encouraging open conversations about feelings through play
• Modelling emotional regulation for children in real-life scenarios

Sources:

Get The Way of Play on Amazon in  Canada or Amazon in the US

Follow Dr. Bryson on Instagram

https://www.tinabryson.com/

Search for a past podcast episode or guest:

https://curiousneuron.com/podcast/

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If you are ready to learn healthy emotional coping skills and to get support on. how to teach your child these skills, join below or book a call with me below:

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https://tremendous-hustler-7333.kit.com/c6701d059a

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my dear friend , welcome back to another
episode of the Curious Neuronpodcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI'm your host.
If you are on a self-awarenessjourney and you are also a
parent, or if you're learninghow to cope with your emotions,
because perhaps you were nottaught how to do that and now
everything in life seems verystressful and overwhelming and

(00:20):
has lots of big emotions for youas a parent, then this podcast
is for you.
I'm a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
PhD in neuroscience.
My specialty is around emotionsand how to regulate emotions
and how to manage and cope withemotions, as well as the stress
that comes with parenting, and Ido think that it's so important
for parents to have this spacethat's just for themselves,

(00:42):
because there are lots ofparenting experts out there and
I love all of them, but what weneed is not more parenting
advice.
What we need is, as a parent,is someone to remind us that we
still matter, that we still haveneeds and that we still have to
attend to these needs, becauseif we do, then we will be able
to show up for a child verydifferently, and so if that's

(01:05):
something that's important foryou, then welcome to Curious
Neuron.
You can learn more about whatwe're doing at curiousneuroncom.
The website, by the way, isgoing through a huge revamp.
By the end of the month, I'mhoping, or early March latest,
the new website should be up andI'm really excited to share
that with you.
The podcast episodes that youare listening to now will be
more easily searchable.

(01:26):
So if you're a new personcoming into this Curious Neuron
community here on the podcast,stay tuned.
Make sure you subscribe andjoin our mailing list by
visiting our website or justgetting the freebie on the first
page of the website.
That way you will get theupdate when it comes out, when
the new website comes out,because you'll be able to more
easily see what is out there interms of old podcast episodes.

(01:50):
There have been some majorchanges in the past few weeks
with Curisneron.
Curisneron has always been aspace where I've wanted to
intentionally support parentsWell, intentionally first,
support emotional well-beingFirst with your child.
I switched it to focus just onthe parent in the past couple of
years, but now we are coming topediatric clinics.
So maybe you want CuriousNeuron in your child's clinic.

(02:12):
Then send me an email at infoat curiousneuroncom, or maybe
you area clinician yourself.
I hadn't realized how manyclinicians were listening to the
podcast or on social media,because when I announced it on
Instagram and LinkedIn, I gotsome emails.
So I know that they are outthere.
You are out there, but thepartners that we are creating

(02:32):
this sort of partnership withthese pediatric clinics, what I
believe is that we should have,when it comes to a child's
healthcare, we should haveparental wellbeing side by side
with this, because if we onlyfocus on the child's health care
, we should have parentalwell-being side by side with
this, because if we only focuson the child's health and
well-being, we are forgettingthat that adult beside them
their caregiver and their parentif they are not well, then they

(02:54):
will struggle to support theirchild, and the environment that
that child will grow up in isgoing to be very different.
And if we look at the researchand all the stats, parental
stress is up, burnout is up andall of that, as well as lots of
struggles with children andtheir behavior.
And so Curious Neuron wants tosupport that.
That is my mission, and so ifyou would like Curious Neuron in

(03:17):
your child's clinic or in yourown clinic, send me an email at
info at curiousneuroncom.
I got a few people that left arating and review this week for
the podcast and I sent themMeltdown Mountain and a little
bonus as well.
So if you haven't done so yetand you've been listening to
this podcast, if you want me tokeep bringing bigger guests I've
sent out emails to people thatjust they're too popular for us.

(03:40):
We need to have bigger numbersfor them, and so I want to bring
the guests that are going tohelp you nurture your needs as a
parent.
Today is one of those reallyspecial guests that I'm just so
grateful that she not only cameat the beginning and trusted me,
but she came back, and theconversation that Tina and I had
was one that I will cherish fora very long time.

(04:02):
I respect her work so much.
Today's guest is Tina PayneBryson, and her new book, the
Way of Play, is a book that weall need to have on our shelves.
I'm not just saying that.
I know I've been saying that alot with many books that I've
been reading.
There are so many good bookscoming out, but every single one
of Tina's is the one that wehave them all on our shelf.

(04:23):
Turn around and look at yourbookshelf.
I'm sure you have one up there,so don't miss my conversation
with her.
It's coming up.
It's a little longer than mostconversations, but I needed to
make sure that I got in all myquestions so that you can have
the answers to this and startimplementing many of these tips
today in your home.
Before we begin, as always, I'dlike to thank the Tannenbaum
Open Science Institute, as wellas the McConnell Foundation, for

(04:45):
supporting the Curious Neuronpodcast.
The reason why they'resupporting us is because I
believe in the importance ofsharing science with parents.
The people I reach out to arescience-based, just like Tina
Payne Bryson, and I want you tohave this very important
information so that you canbring it into your home and see
how it fits best within the waythat you are parenting your

(05:06):
child.
And so today is one of thoseexamples, and if you want this
podcast to continue, please takea moment to rate the podcast
and leave a review.
You can then email me at infoat CuriousNeuroncom and I will
send you Meltdown Mountain.
So if you have a young childthat really struggles and gets
really big emotions very quickly, this visual, this PDF that

(05:27):
comes with a guide and a visualthat you can print, is what I've
used with my kids and what I'mtraining and supporting parents
inside our program called theReflective Parent Club to
support their child inunderstanding that sometimes
emotions we kind of like walkslowly up Meltdown Mountain and
so we see it coming, and that'sthe self-awareness piece around
emotional intelligence.

(05:47):
But sometimes we jump into arocket ship and we make our way
up meltdown mountain all the wayto the top, and when we're at
the top we are dysregulated andso we need support to come back
down the mountain.
Having this language with yourchild is what will help them
develop their emotionalregulation skills.
But first you need to have thatlanguage for yourself, and that

(06:08):
is the whole point of theprogram that we've created
called the Reflective ParentClub.
I used to refer to it as amembership.
I've stopped that.
It is a three-month program,but we are doing the same thing
and I want you to have access tome weekly where you say hey,
cindy, this is what happened tome this week.
I didn't know how to approachthis or I reacted this way.
How do I react differently?

(06:28):
I meet with you every singleweek for an hour.
Three months, that's 12 hoursof personal time inside these
group calls where you can getsupport to build self-awareness
and learn how to cope withemotions and stress all for $99.
But now, if you do want to join, you have to click the link and
take an appointment with me, ameeting with me, 15 minutes, to

(06:50):
make sure that it's the rightfit for you.
All right, I don't want to keepyou waiting.
Tina Payne Bryson, in case youhave not heard of her before, is
an international speaker toparents, educators, camps,
clinicians.
She's the author of Bottom Linefor Baby and co-author with Dan
Siegel of two New Yorkbest-selling books called the

(07:11):
Whole Brain Child and no DramaDiscipline.
I also love another one of herbooks, the Power of Showing Up,
which she also co-authored withhim.
And now this book called theWay of Play is supporting
parents in learning how to playwith their kids in order to help
them with their development,and what I wanted to focus on
specifically with her.

(07:32):
There's so much in her book, butthe one thing that I was most
interested in obviously wasemotional development.
How do you support your childthrough play, and there are so
many ways and tips that you'regoing to get from this book that
you could sit down and supportyour child so that the next time
something happens.
They will have the skills andthe tools but it takes time.
But, like she's going to tellyou, not much time.

(07:52):
It takes a bit of the skillsand the time for you to sit down
and you will see a differencein your child.
I know it because I do it withmy kids and that's how I support
parents as well, and so Ireally do hope you enjoy my
conversation as much as I didwith Tina Payne Bryson.
Welcome back everyone and, aspromised, I'm here with Tina
Payne Bryson.
Welcome back to the CuriousAround podcast.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Thank you so much for having me, cindy.
I love your work.
I think you do such beautifulthings in the world, and you and
I always have a great timehaving a chat, so I'm really
looking forward to getting intoit with you.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
I am looking forward to speaking with you as well.
I have to say the power, theway of play.
I have your other book in mymind.
The way of play is definitely abook that we all need to have
and, like I said in the introwhen I was talking about you and
your work, I don't think youneed an introduction, but just
in case, I said it because Iwanted to make sure everybody
knew who you were.
But I said, all they have to dois look at their bookshelf.

(08:46):
There has to be one of yourbooks on it.
Every single book you put outthere is important for parents,
and the Way of Play is anotherone.
So congratulations on that.
I'm always curious to know howthe idea came about.
Is it something you were seeingthe lack of something?
How did this book subject comeabout?

Speaker 2 (09:06):
You know I'm a mom to three kids and I enjoyed
playing with them sometimes, andthen other times I thought it
was so boring, I thought I wasgonna like scratch my eyes out
and my boys played verydifferently from how I played as
a kid, you know I would.
I made sure my boys had likenurturing toys, like baby dolls
and things like that, but theywould stick baby doll heads in

(09:30):
the edges of a door and see howmuch pressure it took to
collapse the baby's head, youknow, and so, or like I would, I
didn't have any guns orweaponry or whatever, but they
would chew their grilled cheesesinto guns.
And thank God I was a pediatric,you know, psychotherapist, and
I had read Dr Michael Thompson'sbooks about boys and how it's

(09:54):
just play it's play.
We don't have to assume thatthey're going to be sociopaths.
So I had kind of a complexrelationship when it came to
play and I love to play as alittle girl and and when I think
back about the ways that Iplayed as a little girl it's
very reflective of who I am now.
You know, I liked a lot of play.
That was where I was organizingthings and having clipboards

(10:14):
and ordering people around, andthat's pretty much what I like
to do now too.
So I have this kind ofinteresting kind of history
around play and I was.
You know I've written a lot ofbooks.
This is number six and not notincluding the three workbooks if
we include the three works,because this would be number
nine and I wasn't going to writeanother book.
I'm tired.
I've raised three kids, I havestarted an interdisciplinary

(10:36):
clinical practice in SouthernCalifornia and written nine
books all in a period of 13years.
So I'm just I was like I'm notgonna write a book.
But what happened was Georgiewas sent.
Vincent is an incredibleseasoned play therapist who who
has a neuro developmental likewhole brain child lens.

(10:56):
She's worked with me.
We ran into each other.
She came up and introducedherself to me at a store.
We were out, like in Pasadena,california, where I live, and
she was like with her kid in herstroller and she was like, are
you, tina?
And she's like I'm a playtherapist.
I said, oh my gosh, you shouldcome work with me at the Center
for Connection.
And so she did.
And then she's trained ourwhole team and she also goes out
and trains educators and andclinicians and parents all over

(11:19):
the world.
So about a year and a half agoshe said hey, I really, you know
, I'm doing tons of trainings inschools and tons of trainings
for professionals.
I really want to take thesethings that we know as play
therapists and take what youknow as a neuro, you know in
your neurodevelopmental lens,and how do we get it to parents?
So I'm going to write thiscurriculum.
You know we'll, just, we'll,we'll make it digital available

(11:40):
for parents.
And so she sent it to me andwhat she had written I was like
this is a book.
We have to get this to parentsand I'll tell you as I talk.
As I've talked with parents overthe years, parents will either
tell me I don't know how to play, I don't feel comfortable
playing, I hate playing, or Iwant to play but my kid's
telling me I'm doing it wrongand I don't know what to do.

(12:00):
So I can get on the floor.
But then what?
And we know coming out of COVIDthat there are concerns about
kids in terms of, like you know,their development.
Um, or people have concerns.
So much about that I don'treally have a lot of concerns
about that.
I trust development to unfoldand I think when kids get
experiences there they catch up.
But, um, but basically, play isincredible because it it helps

(12:24):
kids process whatever they'regoing through, and that might be
something huge, you know, somebig loss.
Like I live in Los Angeles.
We've just had these fires.
It's a great way to processfear and loss and all of those
kinds of things.
It's also great to processthings like my sister keeps
pushing me out of her play and Ireally want to play with her or

(12:46):
someone's my teacher's kind ofscary.
Sometimes they will play thesethings.
What we say in the book is whatchildren cannot say.
They will play and they do amaking sense process there.
So it helps kids, boost theirdevelopment.
It helps them process whatthey're doing.
It helps them learn and growlinguistically, cognitively, in
terms of their motor systems.
All these things, and when,when parents and children play

(13:08):
together, it is absolutely inservice of the most important
thing we can do for our kids,and that is to promote secure
attachment.
So most of the books that areout there about play are on free
, unstructured play, andparticularly in nature, and I'm
a huge fan of that.
I don't think kids get enoughof it.
And then there's also peopleknow also about structured play,

(13:29):
which would be, like, you know,team sports or even board games
.
Those are great too, butthere's there's only.
There was only one book we knewof, and that was Lawrence
Cohen's book playful parent, umparenting, which I love, and so
it was an honor that he blurbedour book that really talked
about what do you do, how do youplay with them, because the way
that we play with them, when wefollow their lead by using some

(13:54):
really simple strategies, weare helping them build
incredible skills and knowingthem at a deep level as well, on
top of all of these otherbenefits.
So I just I felt like I got toget this out there.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
And that's why I appreciate your book so much,
because many of the parents thatI speak with say I don't know
how to play with my child, or Idon't know what to do when I'm
playing with them, or, like yousaid, like I think I'm doing it
wrong, or my child is telling meI'm doing it wrong,

(14:30):
no-transcript.
But I think that in general,parents just think like it's
about asking questions, right,like you sit there, you play and
you ask questions.
But you really highlight thedifferent types of play, which
we'll talk about in a fewminutes.

(14:50):
But it's not just about sittingthere with your child, right,
and it's not just about askingquestions either.
How can we start giving parentsa bit of an understanding of,
like the overall?
When you say, play with yourchild, we want you to be present
, right?
Is it two hours?
Is it 10 minutes?
What does it look like?

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because that's
actually one of the complaintswe hear from parents all the
time.
It's like, first of all,parents need to.
We need to switch our lensabout what play is and why we
should do it in the first place.
You know, I remember feeling somuch of the time.
It was like what my kids wantedmost to do.
It's their first language, it'sthe thing that lights them up
the most.
They get tons of dopamine whenthey play and, as you know,

(15:27):
dopamine is a, is a um motivator.
It's like what it's drive andmotivation, so like they want to
do more of it, more of it, moreof it and um and so what's
amazing, though, is we oftenthink of it as something to pass
the time, like, okay, fine,I'll play because it'll kill
some of the time between now anddinner or whatever, but it's
this incredibly rich world andyou don't have to do it for

(15:47):
hours.
So these strategies in the book, literally like.
I can give some examples it's30 seconds, three minutes.
If you can do this for 10 to 15minutes.
It is so rich with connection,which has a huge impact on your
child's regulation tank.

(16:08):
And which also means it has ahuge impact on your child's
behavior and their ability tocooperate and all of these
things.
But it also is so powerful tobuild these skills, so like, for
example, one of my veryfavorites and this is is one you
know and to give you anotherexample, in a minute I can talk
about the idea of makingyourself a mirror, which is

(16:29):
literally a strategy you can usein three seconds.
Um, but my one of my favoritestrategies in the book that is
exactly what you're talkingabout in terms of this emotional
regulation and how long ittakes right, is, um, called
bring emotions to life.
So let's just kind of slow downand think about this for a
minute.
You know it's not asking yourkids questions, so let me

(16:49):
describe a scenario.
So my son, four or five at thetime he loved tying knots on
things, so he would typical, atypical play sequence that he
would do over and over would beto tie a rope to a doorknob and
then tie the rope to the top oflike a castle, and he would hand
me an action figure and hewould say, um, he'd have like
his guy down on the castle andhe'd hand me the guy up at the

(17:11):
top of the rope near thedoorknob and he would be like,
hey, mom, get this guy down tothe castle.
You got to get him down there.
Um, his buddies are waiting forhim, or something like that.
Right, so I could easily hookthe action figure guy onto the
arm you know his arm onto therope and go and have him come
down and join the guy, andthat's super fun.
I'm following my kids lead.
Yeah, it's great.
And play doesn't have to bedidactic, it doesn't have to be

(17:34):
teaching skills, it doesn't haveto be it's, it's fun for the
sake of fun.
And if mutual delight ishappening, that is huge for
building secure attachment.
So in and of itself, just beingpresent and joining with them,
that is providing them with tonsof brain benefits.
But what if, in this moment, Itried one of the strategies in
the way of play called bringemotions to life, and all I'm

(17:55):
going to do and this is so greatfor parents like if you're
tired, you can't come up withanything super creative, you can
do this, you can do thiswithout too much of a cognitive
demand.
But basically, what if Iintroduced an emotion for my
character?
So I say to my son I don't knowif I can make it.
I've never done this before.
Okay, so now I'm introducing anemotion which is kind of fear,

(18:20):
tentativeness, uncertainty, andI'm giving words that go with
this scenario.
I'm trying something I've neverdone before, I don't feel
confident in doing it, and hereare the emotions that go with it
, so I'm giving language to allof those things.
Then what happens is because mychild wants the play to

(18:40):
continue.
He, as a four or five year old,has to come up with an
emotional the play to continue.
He, as a four or five year old,has to come up with an
emotional solution to thisemotional problem.
So he wants my guy to get downthere.
So he's going to come up withsomething.
He's going to be a problemsolver.
He's going to say some versionof like like one time he would
have said don't worry, I'm goingto send a guy up to get you,
he'll show you the way, okay, sonow the messaging that's

(19:01):
happening here is my kid now hassolved a problem.
He's also responding to someoneelse's emotion, right, and the
answer he comes up with is it'sabout connection, it's about
community.
But something else implicit ishappening here, cindy, and that
is that my kid now knows we talkabout our emotions right Now.
He's getting that all the timeanyway.

(19:22):
But we're also giving thesereally important messages in the
play that construct reality,because as parents, we are
meaning makers for our childrenand we, all the time, are
communicating our values, um andso by even just talking about
the emotion of an action figureum with him and his action

(19:44):
figure, action figure with himand his action figure he's also
getting this like we talk toeach other when we're uncertain
or we're we're afraid, we askfor help, we share our emotions,
and so that's really huge.
And I want to say just one otherthing, there are lots and lots
of different ways to communicateor to define emotion regulation
.
One of the ones I really likecomes from my co-author, dan

(20:06):
Siegel, which I just heard himrecently use this phrase.
I wish I had known it for areally long time but he talks
about the ability to monitor andmodify, and so when you think
about this and so obviously thenco-regulation would be the
ability to monitor and modifysomeone else's state.
What that means is I'm alsolaying the groundwork for that,

(20:31):
because if I'm saying I've neverdone this before, I'm not sure
I'm scared to do this, and thenhe's got to come up with a
solution.
What I'm doing is I'm alsolaying the groundwork for
monitoring our internal statesand what language goes with that
, and then how do we modify itto make it a tolerable stress?
So it really is.

(20:51):
This one strategy, along withmany others bring emotions to
life is an incredible way toflex our children's muscles when
it comes to emotionalregulation and to flex our own
muscles, Because as we do thatin kind of a what's called
symbolic distance, we're noteven necessarily talking about
ourselves.
We're talking about the action,figures, feelings.

(21:12):
The more we get reps, repeatedexperiences around, talking
about emotions, sharing emotionsand problem solving emotions.
Our brains are getting thosereps too, and the degree to
which we can do that withcharacters is also influencing
our ability to do that forourselves and for our children.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
I'm so happy you said that word reps because this is
what I keep trying to tellparents right, it's not a one
time.
Here's how to deal with angeror here's what to do next time
you feel worried.
We need to have repetitions.
It's the same way that if Iwere to say, you and I should
join a tennis tournament, Well,we're going to need reps, we're
going to need to practice, youand I.
We're going to have to build theskills, and it's the same thing

(21:54):
around emotions, and so playreally gives you that
opportunity to put those reps inright, like get that workout of
what to do in those moments.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
The fire and wire.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
So it becomes who they are, and what they're
capable of Exactly.
And that word monitors is areally simple way for us to
remember one thing that I thinkI'd love to talk to you about.
You know we talk about ourparents will often say you know,
I've taught them all thedifferent emotions.
They understand these words andthey're able to say I'm angry.
They're able to say I, I'mangry.
They're able to say I'm mad,I'm sad, but then nothing

(22:28):
changes and they know the words,but then, like, they haven't
improved how they deal with that.
Well, the coping part.
So the monitoring piece to meis the self-awareness piece,
right, Like, do they know whenthey feel that way?
Do they know after themodifying piece?
Do they know what to do whenthey feel that?
How do you cope with that?
So how does play come in?
You know you talk aboutself-awareness in your book as

(22:49):
well.
So how do you, like now, withthe example you gave, the child
understands that this is a safespace to talk about emotions.
You know that character isgoing to have different emotions
.
My parents are bringing upemotions.
But now how do you build thatsort of self-awareness through
play with a child?
Let's say you've noticed thatthey get angry very easily.
We can use that example Maybe.

(23:10):
How do you use play in that way?

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, I mean, the first thing is to say in general
how we learn any skill, likeyou talked about with the reps.
You know, we know from thescience that children will
anyone, adults too.
We learn best number one bydoing something ourselves and
practicing it over and over andover.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, second way we learn is by what is modeled for
us, and we are held captive toone another in terms of how our
brains pick up on things fromeach other.
So let me give a reallyspecific example.
This is also a strategy calledthink out loud, which is kind of
similar.
But the example we give in thebook is about a little boy who

(23:49):
is aggressive with his littlesister.
He's, he's, he's reallyaggressive with her and she he
gets really frustrated becauseshe interferes with something
he's building.
And so you know, how do we sogreat?
So now maybe your kid can sayI'm so mad.
But then what?
right, yeah, or you can help himhave that emotional vocabulary.
And it's funny.
I just came from teaching.

(24:10):
I was working with my clinicalteam this afternoon.
We always, once a month, cometogether and learn together and
I was teaching and one of ourbrilliant clinicians, maggie,
talked about how one of thethings that she's learned is
that that we can distinguishbetween the idea of a
thermometer and a thermostat.
So a thermometer can tell youhow, what the we can give you

(24:31):
the reading right.
But a thermostat is able tochange it.
Right.
You can make something hotteror colder, right.
And actually in the book, oneof our strategies is called um,
dialing intensity up or down, um.
But.
But so let's go back to thislittle boy.
So he's really mad.
He's aggressive with his sister.
She starts encroaching, youknow cause?
She's two and she wants toexplore.
She's encroaching onto hisspace and he he will shove her

(24:53):
or hit her or in some cases, inthe actual clinical story, he
would kind of go to strangle her.
Um.
So when we talk about how do wehelp them build the modified
piece as well, well, one way wecan do that is obviously through
modeling right.
So, as we're doing pretend play,maybe we get mad about
something and we stomp our footand we're like I'm so mad, I
really wanted the hot dog guy togive me three hot dogs and he

(25:16):
only gave me two hot dogs.
And then you can literally andagain.
You don't have to makeeverything super didactic, but
you can be like, oh, I'm so mad,I feel hot in my body, I'm
going to take three big breathsand do four pushups and I'm
going to let all that anger comeout of my body.
Right, so you can even and, bythe way, your kids will give you
lots of opportunities to dothis I remember one time at

(25:36):
bedtime, one of my little boyssaid why are you so frustrated
at me?
Um, and I didn't even realizethat I had kind of gotten into
that tone of voice and that kindof like brusqueness, and so I
said you're right, I'm going totake two big breaths and I'm
going to turn in three circlesand then I'm going to do four

(25:58):
pushups and then I'm going to beready to be kind and gentle
again.
So I can model that right.
So we want to.
We can do that even in the play.
But in the strategy, think outloud.
Basically, what we're doing isit's sort of like sports casting
, but it's a little bit deeperbecause we're also tuning into
what thoughts and wishes andintentions and emotions our kid
might be having inside ofthemselves.

(26:19):
So your son, maybe, is buildinga tower and little sister walks
into the room.
But before she walks into theroom you can say something like
what you're trying to do isthink out loud for your child.
You're like the externalspeaker to what's happening on
their internal landscape.
So you can say it looks likeyou're building a tower and
you're look, it looks likeyou're trying to make it really,

(26:41):
really tall.
So a couple of amazing thingshappen.
Your kid's like oh, she knowsme, she understands my mind.
And if she can understand mymind and give words to what's in
my mind and how I'm thinkingand feeling, then I can give
words to what I'm I'm thinkingand feeling.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
And then you know, one of the things I teach kids
is that, um, and adults is thatfeelings are really important
information, because theyusually tell us, um, that we
might need something different,but you know they, they can tell
us we might need somethingdifferent, um, or what we might
be needing.
So, anyway, so I can, I can saythis.
So now, after some reps, thislittle boy can say, um, I'm

(27:23):
building a really big tower andEmma's coming and she's going to
knock it over and I don't wanther to touch my tower.
Can you hold her over thereuntil I'm done with this part?
So now, all of a sudden,someone can use their words and
they can really express a wishand a desire.
And when and now I'm jumping tothe whole range child when we
name something, it actuallyhelps us regulate, it helps tame

(27:46):
the emotional reactivity.
So it so just being able to say, to observe our own minds and
share what we are thinking andfeeling.
That in and of itself is amodifier right.
So that's one thing we can dothere as well, Not to mention
all the things we can model inplay.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Again, this book is just so necessary for all
parents because we see thebehavior and you know experts
like yourself and so many otherexperts we talk about like
what's the why behind thebehavior?
But we see the externalizationof it.
But then it gets so difficult,I think, for many parents to say
, well, I'm not sure the why is.
I can see my child is angry, Ican see the behavior, but I
think that play offers thatopportunity, one to teach these

(28:32):
skills but also to explore.
What would you say to a parentwho says, well, I can tell that
maybe the behavior is a littlebit more difficult for them to
understand, right?
So maybe a child is afraid ofgoing to school, or they cry and
they're starting preschool, andevery single morning it's the
same scenario where the childdoesn't want to go into the
classroom.
How can you use play in thatsense to kind of understand the

(28:56):
why behind the behavior thatyou're seeing?

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I think one of the best play okay, let's say it
this way when something is fun,okay, so that can be play like
you're on the floor doing things.
Or let's say you have ateenager or an older kid who's
not doing as much pretend playanymore, like maybe a 10 year
old, 11 year old.
They're moving out of that.
So when something likeimaginary play or like

(29:25):
traditional kind of play wemight think about in childhood,
or playfulness and silliness,when something is fun enough,
what we know that it does is ithelps, and this is obviously
oversimplified.
But when we think about thenervous system, it's if we're
either in a reactive state orwe're in a receptive state, and
this is obviously oversimplified.
But when we think about thenervous system, it's if we're
either in a reactive state orwe're in a receptive state, and
the receptive state we couldalso call from the whole brain
child, the river of wellbeing,where we're in a state of

(29:48):
integration.
Or we can talk about DanSiegel's phrase, your window of
tolerance.
It's also where we're regulatedright.
So when something is fun enoughor silly or playful, two things
happen.
One is we wanted to keep going,so, even if we are afraid or
we're angry or frustrated orwhatever.
No, they don't want to playwith me.

(30:08):
The way I want to play with youknow, but I want the play to
continue.
Play itself silliness.
Playfulness expands our windowof tolerance.
So what it does is it gives usreps tolerating challenging
situations and emotions, andthis is how resilience gets
built right, I was just going tosay right exactly, which we
will get into.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, the formula for that we can talk about.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
But the other piece of this is that and this is
based on Yach Pinksepp'sbeautiful work he was known as
the rat tickler because heactually worked with rats who
knew but they play and actuallylaugh.
And what he discovered and thenmany things since then have
looked at is that when we are ina threat state, when there is a
threat present, play stops.

(30:52):
So we can only play when we'renot in threat states.
So that means that play can beused to prevent reactive states
and keep us in receptive,regulated states, but it also
can help us recover from them.
So let me give let's go back toyour question Like, let's say
it's every day your kid hasseparation anxiety, they don't
want to, they don't want to goto school, or it's a big

(31:12):
meltdown.
The way that we help expandtheir window of tolerance to
have maybe a successfultransition to school or goodbye
in the morning, is to try asbest as we can to use
playfulness to kind of get usthere.
So let me give a couple ofreally specific examples.

(31:33):
One is and this comes fromGeorgie, my co-author, and she
and I both posted this on ourInstagram is to do what we would
call a scout it out.
So basically you don't go atthe school drop off time.
You go the day before or theweek before maybe your kid's
starting a new soccer team andthey're feeling unsure about it,
or whatever you can go and youare a detective.

(31:56):
You go and you're like we'regoing to go scout it out and
we're going to sit across thestreet and in fact we're going
to pretend it's even a movie.
We're going to bring popcornwith us and we're going to sit
and we're going to eat popcornand we're going to watch it like
it's a movie, let's go scout itout.
And then, knowing your kid andevery kid is different you can

(32:23):
even be like stay within, likecuriosity and that kind of thing
.
So when we're activatingcuriosity along with playfulness
and silliness, we're actuallygetting a double dose of a
protective factor that keeps theprefrontal cortex engaged as
opposed to moving into morereactive state.
So I had a client one time whowas I think she was 10 or 11 and
her dad was a really safeperson.
Um, and you know, as aclinician I had to check that
out because what her behaviorwas was, um, anytime her mom
would leave, even if it was justto go to the grocery store for

(32:45):
45 minutes and leave her therewith her dad or at school
drop-offs.
This, this um child would getso dysregulated that she would
like vomit and like theseparation.
Anxiety was really, reallyintense and I think I probably
talked about this the last timeI was on your show.
But of course we chased the whyand we peeled back the layers
as to why she might have thiskind of dysregulation and in

(33:08):
this case she had a sensoryprocessing challenge and her mom
was her best tool to stayregulated.
So when her mom left, itactivated a threat state for her
because she didn't feel likeshe didn't have a tool to help
her stay regulated without hermom.
So I had been reading LawrenceCohen's book the Playful Parent
or Playful Parenting, and I usedit as a clinician.
So what I wanted to do andwe're going to get really nerdy

(33:29):
here together, cindy is I wantedto decouple the automaticity,
so the automatic responsebetween mom leaving and this
threat state of panic and fearand upsetness and upset stomach
and all this stuff and insteadcreate some reps to get her
brain to fire and wire to momleaving and I'm okay and I feel

(33:52):
okay and maybe it's even funsometimes.
So the way I did this with herand her siblings and her mom was
we knew the mom was leaving togo to a PTA meeting or something
the next week and so we createdand this is just silly and
playful, I made it up, it's dumbbut it worked was operation
prank dad.
So in session I was like whatwould you want to do if you were

(34:15):
going to prank your dad?
And she was like fake bug inhis food underwear in the
freezer.
We were going to prank your dadand she was like fake bug in
his food underwear in thefreezer.
We had this whole plan rightand she got her siblings in on
it.
So she and her siblings gathereda laundry basket full of socks
and underwear and so when momreached for the doorknob which
was always a cue of panic thatwas the symbol to start throwing
the socks and underwear at dad.
So she and her siblings werelike conspiring.

(34:36):
They were anticipatingsilliness and joy and play
instead of anticipating thefreak out.
And over time this completelyrewired her brain for what a
separation from mom is.
So I would say, if we can besilly and playful in our
approach.

(34:56):
It's an incredible way tostrengthen our child's capacity
so that they can tolerate thesethings.
And the more they tolerate them, the more they trust themselves
, the more confidence they haveand the more their nervous
system knows it's something thatcan work for them.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
That is such an amazing example, I think,
reminds all of us.
You know that it's not assimple as just asking why or
telling, asking your child like,why are you doing this?
Why are you reacting this way?
We have to become reallycurious about it.
They won't be able to tell us,and I think that idea of the cue
is so important and that youwere able to kind of pinpoint
that One thing that you saidbefore.

(35:36):
I've always said it as are weescalating the situation or
deescalating?
But you had the oh I forget nowthe word that you used the dial
, yeah, dialing up or down,right, and so I really love that
you have the images in yourbook and I think it really helps
parents to understand what'shappening.
So I'm thinking of that cue nowand I'm linking into that,
because sometimes the cue toescalating things is us and we

(36:00):
might not be doing itintentionally.
I've done it myself and wereact a certain way to our child
.
We use a certain word, we use acertain phrase that just
escalates the whole thing andwhat we see is not what we've
done but the behavior justgetting worse and worse.
How?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
do we call it like co-escalation instead of
co-regulation?

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, right, and so you know, I think this is an
important concept.
So can you talk a little bitabout like the dialing up or
down, and that's obviously theregulation piece and all that?
How do we start to kind of tuneinto all of that?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, I will say that for me, like I was pretty
skilled at like trying, liketrying to do relational first
aid, so like when I was about toyell at my kids or I was
frustrated I typically wouldn'tI wouldn't say berating things,
like I would keep my mouthclosed, but non verbally, I was
basically screaming at them, youknow, like I was rolling my
eyes and I was like I'm like youknow big breaths and stuff, so

(36:55):
they were getting all of thatand so even if we're not yelling
at them, sometimes we're, youknow we're escalating things
because we're not in regulatedstates or we're kind of verging
on the edge of that.
Now that's not to say you shouldexpect yourself to do that all
the time.
And I think peoplemisunderstand co-regulation a
lot.
I think they think, like,literally, when I talk to

(37:15):
parents and they have it wrong,they somehow think they're
supposed to be this weird, likerobot person that only uses,
like very, and I'm like that'salmost sociopathic, like that
you sound like a robot that doesnot.
And to me, like co-regulationis that my child is borrowing my
regulation.
Right, I am monitoring andmodifying their state.

(37:36):
Now, what that means is exactlywhat you're talking about.
Sometimes my child is in a hyperaroused state and there are
lots of things we can do whenour kid is having a meltdown or
they're in really escalatedstates and that is usually going
a little bit slower makingourself available.
But it doesn't mean that we'rejust using a calm, totally
robotic voice.

(37:56):
It can be like, oh, you're sofrustrated right now I mean, do
you hear the amplification evenin my voice?
Right, I can be like, oh, thisis so frustrating, I know, I
know you're trying so hard andit won't go the way you want it
to.
Oh, how can I help?
Or what do you need?
Right, so I might even ask aquestion there.
Um, if my kid's younger, Imight just offer a hug or I

(38:19):
might scaffold and help them bethe solution, but with some
support.
So those are some strategies tolike.
Really bad behavior is whenthey most need connection.

(38:41):
And when we are, you know, andand our we're these states,
meltdowns are super contagious,so we can easily go there.
And I don't know about you, butI know lots of times like I'll
be patient, patient, patient,patient for like forever, and
then I lose it and my kiddoesn't give me any credit for
how long I was.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, I know, and then I asked for the credit.
I'm like, come on, did you seethat I was calm for a long time?

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't talk about when it
comes to co regulation is whatif your kid isn't acting out
like that?
What if instead and we talkedabout this in the dial emotions
up or down, you know, even evennot talking about if your kids
totally lost it.
But let's say your kid in playis like hitting you too hard

(39:23):
with the foam sword, um, orthey're, they're, you know
you're, you're, you're buildinga Ford and they're kind of start
whacking you with pills andit's too much.
One of the things, andparticularly if you have a kid
who is still flexing theirmuscles and learning some
impulse control, whether theyhave a diagnosis or not, they
all need some some um, skillbuilding in that area.
Um, you can say, instead ofjust saying stop it, knock it

(39:45):
off, where you're not reallydoing anything to build skills,
you can say, whoa, that was sohard, that was like a 10.
Can you try it at a five?
Let's try medium, right.
So then you give them practice,kind of dialing it back a
little.
So that's another way we cantalk about that, not just
emotional dysregulation.

(40:05):
But the thing that a lot ofpeople don't talk about is what
happens if your kid is and everykid is different.
I had one that when he gotdysregulated he wanted to fight
and argue and be aggressive.
I had one that would just cry.
He would just cry when he gotdysregulated and he just wanted
to be held.
And then I had one that's goingto fit into this category that
a lot of people don't talk about, and that was where he kind of
went into states of hypo arousalwhich looked for him like

(40:28):
running away, getting underthings, withdrawing from
everybody, not talking.
So we're not seeing a lot ofexternalizing behaviors like
crying or yelling or beingaggressive.
We're seeing internalizingbehavior where they shut down
and withdraw.
That is hard too, because youknow, when they're kind of in
really reactive states we'relike, oh, I'm right here with

(40:49):
you.
You know, come on, let's, let'sgo outside.
You need a hug, like you.
You know we can come up withthese solutions, but what if a
kid won't talk and they'repulled away from everything?
That is also a dysregulated,reactive state.
So what I would suggest there,and what we talk about in the in
the way of play in terms ofdialing intensity up, is to go
low and slow.
Um, if you come in hot with alot of come on, let's go outside

(41:11):
, let's go do some stuff, or youknow, oh, come on, that is,
you're not meeting them wherethey're at, so you kind of,
maybe need to kind of, andalmost all of our strategies
talk about.
The first two steps are observeand attune.
So you're joining with insteadof doing something to your kid.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Which is stopping you from reacting as well.
Right, it's giving you thatpause.
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Engage your prefrontal right and just stay
integrated.
So maybe your kid like I'mimagining my kid it, you know it
could be six, it could be 15,anywhere in between, um, in his
room, under the covers or on hisbed arms crossed, doesn't want
to talk.
Maybe he's mad at me, or maybehe's not mad at me, but he's not
talking.
What if I just sit close, butnot too close, and I might get

(41:55):
closer as as the moments unfold,as it seems right, and maybe I
just put my hand on a foot or aleg and I just rubbed his leg a
little bit to kind of createsome kind of activation through
a sensory system, like thetactile system, um, or I put a
little bit of music on or um,maybe I have a little foam ball

(42:16):
and I roll it to him and thensay you know, do this, hoping
he'll roll it back.
But basically we just we kindof go like, if they're at like a
two, we don't want to go to anine, we want to be at like a
two and a half or a three, andwhat we're trying to do is
regulate by helping them dial up.
And the way that happens isthrough cues of safety.

(42:37):
And we can spend we can spendsix episodes talking about that
Um, but through cues of safety,um, particularly through um
positive, predictablerelationship with your grownup,
um, and then also just slowlykind of inviting them to
re-engage um their sensorysystem and their um re-engaging,

(42:58):
and so that that means notyanking them too hard, but just
kind of being there and maybeyou make, maybe, if you think
they're mad at you, you can kindof make fun of yourself a
little bit, be like, wow, I,that was a little silly, what I
just did in there.
That was kind of wow, that wasa lot I do.
You want to imitate me?
Or should I imitate myself?
So you can bring in theselittle, you know these little
ways of being funny.

(43:19):
I'll say and I won't say whichkid, but if you know my age as a
kid you're going to guess it.
But even today, like my kid'sroom is so awful right now and I
went in his room to find a bagof mine that he used to clean
out his car, so I went in thereand you can't even walk through
the room, like it's a safetyhazard, and of course we've had
these fires here.
So I'm a little hypervigilantabout making sure floor spaces

(43:41):
are clear in case we need toevacuate.
And so I took a picture of hisroom and I sent it to him and I
was like, oh, you forgot to tellme you were on the next episode
of hoarders.
So I could say like your roomis a disaster, clean it up right
now, and that's fine.
If I say that, that's fine, I'mnot damaging him for life, I'm
not damaging the relationship,but so much better to be silly

(44:03):
and playful.
And so, and then he respondsyeah, mom, but there's no dishes
in there, and I'm like you knowwhat Small wins.
I'm so glad about that.
You know what?
I'm just being sarcastic, right, yeah, and he's like I'll clean
it up soon.
Now I'm gonna have to reinforce, I mean, I'm gonna have to

(44:24):
follow up.
It's not going to justmagically happen, but I think
anytime we want to elicitcooperation to that, you know,
playfulness and silliness is somuch more effective.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's an example of also what you were saying before
.
In terms of the playfulness itdoesn't go away and you just you
know, you just gave thatexample and I think it's just a
reminder to all of us that whatyou and I are talking about is
for younger kids, yes, but thatconcept of playfulness continues
into their when they're adults.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, and we need it in our lives too, you know
definitely couples that areplayful with each other and make
you know, even making fun ofeach other in ways that feel
good to both people.
You know, if we bringplayfulness into our lives, as
adults remember, one of the bestways kids learn is by what we
model, and so it's such a greatway to deescalate things, it's
such a great way to again elicitcooperation.

(45:14):
And I understand, as parentslike I'm so tired right now I'm
just to be, just to be honest,I'm just so tired and I've felt
that a lot as a parent just sotaxed mentally, emotionally,
physically.
It's actually a sign that weprobably need it more than ever.

(45:36):
But I also think that you knowparents will say to me like I'm
so tired, I don't have thatmental bandwidth to do an effing
puppet show to get them to puttheir shoes on.
What do you mean?
Be playful with them to elicitcooperation.
But the truth is, the battles weend up, like we typically know
for the most part, when we'regoing to have a battle, Like you

(45:59):
know, that night, when you'redrawing the bath, you're like
this could be a really thiscould be a rough evening.
Like I know it's coming right.
He hasn't had, he didn't have anap today, or I can tell he's
not feeling well, or you knowhe's sugared up.
You know whatever it is.
We often can tell if it's goingto be kind of a potentially a
rough moment coming up, or weknow it's always a pain point to

(46:20):
get our kid to school or brushteeth or or have our teenager
get to bed at a decent time.
We might already know that'salways a battle.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
What we want and as humans it's so funny, and I'm
I'm this way too we even ifsomething isn't working, we keep
doing it over and over and overagain and then keep being
frustrated that it's notchanging.
So what I would say is, if youthink about a pain point in your
daily routine, what could youdo to bring in some silliness

(46:51):
and playfulness?
Because, honestly, the amountof energy you will put into
doing that is so much less of amental and emotional, physical
demand than being a littlecreative.
So, like, one of the thingsthat worked for my kids to
elicit any kind of cooperationwas using storytelling, and I'm
not even that good at it, so,but I would be like, okay, and

(47:13):
this would be for, like, gettingshoes on or getting teeth,
brush pajamas on, whatever is Iwould.
I would just be like oh my gosh,I have a story that I've been
meaning to tell you, or I justwhatever.
Be like okay, listen, there arethese three squirrels and they
did something no one everthought they would do and they
got in so much trouble.
Okay, put your pajamas on,brush your teeth.
As soon as you're in bed, I'mgoing to tell you what happens

(47:34):
next.
They can't wait to do it Right,and I don't know what's going
to happen.
It's going to be a stinker of astory probably, but I'm going
to make something up Right and,honestly, like that's so much
less of a demand than the battlethat ends up with me yelling
and then they're upset and thenno one can go to bed, you know.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
I love that.
I want to know what happened tothe squirrels.
I love that.
I want to know what happened tothe squirrels.
You said something before, andthat was a part of your book
that I found really interesting,where you break down, like the
emotion-based play.
So you talk about expressiveplay, preventative play and
responsive play.
We don't have to dig into eachone of them, but the
preventative play is somethingyou just mentioned before.

(48:15):
You know, when we think abouteverything that we've spoken
about up to now, we're nottalking about like in the moment
with their child or they'rehaving these big emotions.
We're talking about everythingin between.
And so what is preventativeplay and how can you use this to
, I'm assuming, the examples youjust gave?
Like you're talking about inthe moment, let's say, with
storytelling, but maybe there'sa situation that we could, I'm

(48:37):
assuming, just kind of createplay to prevent the next time
that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, for sure.
Those examples are like thescout out example that we talked
about before, where we're kindof using these moments to
rehearse or to practice or thosekinds of things.
But also like, imagine you knowif you're expecting a baby or
you know you're getting ready tomove or something that's coming
.
Um, you know, play isstorytelling and it's like
therapy, you know, I mean it istherapy.

(49:03):
But so you could even, let'ssay, um, you know there's,
you're moving houses.
Well, get out some blocks andbuild, this is our house.
And then look, here's our newhouse.
Um, will you help me build it,or whatever, and let them kind
of play out those stories, likeI'll tell you right now, well,
that's, that's more responsive.
But yeah, so, um, so prevent,preventing is, um, is things

(49:25):
that you know are coming up, orthings that you know maybe pain
points, um, or things you wantyour kid to build some skills
around.
So even the speak out loudstrategy we could think of as
preventative play, because I'mhelping him make you know, find
words to describe his inner life.
That's like long-term, he cando that.
So that that's for sure Some ofthe stuff that we've talked

(49:45):
about and in terms of responsive, like in LA right now, a lot of
kids are um, because so manyhomes and schools have been
burned to the ground.
Um, a lot of building things.
And they're building things andthey're building, pretend
they're building on fireproofwalls that go around these
structures.

(50:05):
And what's amazing is, if kidscan imagine it, it is incredibly
healing too.
So that's responsive.
You know, we're processing andworking through and it gives
them, even though it's imaginary, it is embedded in their psyche
, as if that was possible.
So it gives them a felt senseof safety and security that has

(50:26):
maybe been ripped away from them.
And you know, it's really,really similar to in Whole Brain
Child when we talk aboutintegrating implicit and
explicit memory by telling thestory, integrating implicit and
explicit memory by telling thestory and we're just kids are
playing it.
So it helps them process.
And what will happen sometimesis kids will play the same thing
over and over and over becausethey're working through

(50:48):
something, just like they mightwant you to read the same story
over and over and over, becausethey're scaffolding in new
layers of it until they grasp it.
And sometimes kids can getstuck.
And this is where playtherapists can be really helpful
, where we're not taking overthe play.
But we might say like, hmm, dowe have any other solutions to
this problem?

(51:08):
What else could we try?
Or gosh I'm, and then we add insome of the other ones, like
I'm feeling kind of afraid, Iwant to feel stronger, what can
I do to feel stronger?
And you can kind of likeintroduce some of those things
as well.
But but yeah, it's, it's bothpreventative and then these
other types as well.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Right, and, and just as a side note to people that
are listening, you mentioned thefires.
Any sort of trauma, any sort ofyou know, if a parent, a
grandparent or somebody passesaway, plays that way to get them
to again.
Like you said, it's creatingthat safe space and then they
can have the conversationsperhaps a little bit more easily
with you.
But we forget the importance ofthat and that plays part of
that.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
And resilience building like we mentioned
earlier, and I think you knowthe formula for resilient, you
know the difference and you knowthis, of course, the difference
between something being toxicand traumatic, um, and being
more tolerable, is typically thepresence of a safe, positive,
predictable relationship.
Right, so it's really being inconnection and community with

(52:08):
each other, um, and, like I said, like that idea of mutual
delight, you're, you know, as a,as parents, we don't have to
have it all together and we, weare facing adversity.
Many of us with young kids orsandwich generation, we have
older parents we're taking careof, who maybe have health issues
or will at some point.
Life is busy and full, and thenwe have losses and we have

(52:29):
difficult.
We may have some of youlistening.
You may be having some reallychallenging stuff happening in
your primary relationships, inyour family.
Whatever we're going through, Ithink of sort of the the
resilient.
You know, it's a lot of timeswhen I talk to parents about,
like, really being there withyour kid and co-regulating them.
Sometimes the pushback I get islike, yeah, but I don't want to

(52:50):
make them fragile, I don't wantto coddle them, yeah.
And so I talk about how, likewhen kids are dysregulated and
we help bring them back intoregulation.
It's a rep for their brain tolearn how to regulate for
themselves.
That's how self-regulationhappens, by many, many
experiences being co-regulated.
But the resilience formula andit's probably oversimplified is
like adversity minus someoneshowing up for you is fragility.

(53:15):
But adversity plus someoneshowing up for you not even
perfectly equals resilience.
And so we cannot control theadversity most of the time.
But what we can control isshowing up right and how we show
up and the way and you know, inthe power of showing up, dan
and I talk about the way we showup is by and this is really my

(53:35):
North star for how I handleeverything as a parent.
Like lots of times I'm like Idon't know what to do, I don't
know what to say, but this isalways my answer and that is
that I want to respond in a waythat helps my kid feel the four
S's safe scene that's where I'mtuning into the internal world
soothed that's the co-regulationpiece and secure and knowing
I'm going to show up no matterwhat.
And so when we help kids feelsafe and seen and soothed and

(53:58):
secure and knowing we're goingto keep showing up, that is the
foundation of secure attachment,which is one of the best
predictors for how well kidsturn out on everything, but it's
also the key to resilience andoptimal development.
So I think that's that's justkey.
And, of course, that's reallyhard to do if we're not
regulated.
So, um, you know, our ownregulation is at the heart of

(54:21):
this um, and I'll just tell youone of the strategies that has
helped me the most over all my,all the times I I almost yelled
and yelled and all the stuff.
And the thing that has helpedme the most is to put a hand on
my chest and a hand on my bellyand to do the physiological sigh
which Huberman has made popularbut we've known about it since

(54:43):
the 1930s.
I've been teaching it fordecades is basically all it is
is that your exhale is longerthan your inhale.
So basically, I would put ahand on my chest and hand on my
belly and I would just exhale,and I would do that two or three
times.
And while I was doing that, theself-talk I was having in my
head is if you want to be thecalm in the storm, you cannot be

(55:05):
.
The storm at his worst is whenhe needs you the most.
Um, this is not an emergency,you know like I would do this
like self-talk.
And what was funny, cindy, isthat, um, when I would feel
myself starting to to go downthe flip your lid route, like
about to become dysregulated, Iwould notice that about myself.

(55:26):
I could feel myself gettingangry, and the more you start
paying attention to that, you'llknow kind of oh, I'm getting
close to jumping off that ledgethere.
And I would do this, I wouldput my hand on my chest and
belly and I would close my eyesand I would start to breathe.
And my kids was just crazy.
They knew that that meant thatI was on the verge of really
losing it and yelling, and sothey would rein themselves in

(55:49):
because they were like oh, we'reat that point, okay, not that
they're responsible for myemotional regulation, but we are
in relationship with each otherregulation, but we're in
relationship with each other.
And I was also modeling forthem to notice and to monitor
and modify, not just monitor.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
I love that, and you said so much, oh my gosh.
Okay.
So where do I begin?
There's so many ideas.
First, that resilience piece Ithink is so important for us to
talk about, because I thinkthere is some sort of
misunderstanding sometimes interms of resilience, and I've
heard parents say that too, likeI don't want my child to be
weak, I want them to beresilient.
I've had a really heateddiscussion with a father once

(56:29):
that was trying to convince methat all children need to be
bullied so that they could beresilient and that they needed
that in their life.
But you mentioned the otherpiece to that right.
So it's not just the havingadversity, there's more to it.
But in terms of resilience also,I think we struggle with
knowing how to show up for ourchildren sometimes.
So, coming thinking of mygeneration of parents, it was

(56:50):
just like, well, you're afraidof jumping into the deep end,
just jump into the deep end, butyou bring up scaffolding in
your book and I think it'sreally important for us to talk
about that just a little bit,because as your child is getting
older or moving away from thebuilding blocks, there are going
to be opportunities and momentswhen our child needs to jump,
or wants to jump into that deepend, or put their head under the
water for the first time, orclimb the tallest structure at

(57:13):
the park.
What does scaffolding look likefor a child, and how do we
introduce that in their playtime?

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Such an important question, and I think one of the
things is that we have to knowour kids right and and our kids,
some of our kids are slower towarm up and they need more
scaffolding, they need more babysteps.
Other kids can go ahead firstand it's it's totally true.
So, um, so, just knowing thatand know that your child is not
the same as you, and so what itworks for you or what used to
work for you and your kid may betotally different from your kid

(57:43):
.
We want to honor theirindividual differences so that
we can stay a trusted person.
Now, the other thing to know isthat the brain is in obviously
the most.
Our nervous system is the mostcomplex thing in the known
universe, right, and in someways, it's really simple, and
I'll tell you one simple thingto know is that what feels good

(58:04):
we want more of and what doesnot feel good we pull away from
and avoid.
Okay, so that's just a simpletruth.
Now, when we force our childinto something that they are not
ready for, without any supportor scaffolding, what happens?
So let's imagine you have a kidwith a really slow to warm up
temperament, okay, and let's sayI'm like, and so this is my

(58:25):
firstborn.
We would go to birthday partieswhere they would have, like,
someone dressed up as Dora theExplorer or whatever, and he
wanted nothing to do with it.
It was terrifying to him, right?
Yeah, if I had, just like youknow, said no, this is fun, this
is a birthday party, All yourfriends are here Look, your
friends are up there too andkind of dragged him up there and
made him sit, what would havehappened?

(58:47):
Is he?
Two things would have happened.
One is okay I can't trust mymom to kind of keep me safe for
what feels good to me right now,and that's okay.
We violate that kind of stuffwith our kids Lots of times.
We make repairs and we makelots of good deposits and
helping them trust us.
So that's not a you're doomedforever situation.
Some of you are like listening,going oh my God, I've ruined my
kid forever.
No, you haven't.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
They're thinking of Santa.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
I'm sure that's exactly.
Santa is a perfect example.
Right, what happens is um thebut the other thing that happens
, is it's so it's so much of aleap for them in terms of their
comfort.
It's so outside of their comfortzone that it feels horrible.
Right, their heart is beatingreally fast, they start sweating
, their bodies get hot, theyfeel afraid or nervous or

(59:33):
uncomfortable.
Maybe their stomach hurts andthen it actually locks that in
further.
So they're like that was soterrible.
I'm not even now.
I don't even like Christmas,forget Santa, like now.
I hate all Christmas.
Right, I'm being dramatic, butbasically it's.
It's.
It's counterproductive to forcewhen your kid is not ready for
it, because the nervous systemsays terrible idea, don't ever

(59:56):
do that again and in fact stayfive more feet away.
So what we want to be doing andwe talk about this actually in
the whole brain child as well,when we, when I tell a story
about my son and swimminglessons and the dialogue.
I had with them around this.
But what we want to do isscaffold and stretch, which is
one of the strategies in thebook, and it's based on Lev

(01:00:16):
Vygotsky's theories about thezone of proximal development,
which basically means there arethings your child is really good
at, they're developmentallyalready there.
Then there's stuff that is wayoutside of where they are
developmentally, and thenthere's this spot between
there's this zone of proximaldevelopment.
They're almost there or theycan get there, but they need

(01:00:36):
some support and scaffolding toget there.
So this can start with littlethings Like, for instance, do
you remember, cindy, how hard itis to get the top off of a new
Play-Doh container?
It's hard, it's really hard.
It's hard for grownups, right,and it's hard for kids, right.

(01:00:57):
So your kid can come over andjust hand it to you, and you can
.
You can take the lid off,that's fine, um, and you're on
the phone and you've got threeother kids.
Just take the lid off, that'sfine, there's no pressure.
But if you wanted to scaffoldand stretch, what you're doing
is you are helping them bridgethe gap between what they can't
yet do and what they can do.
So we might say, oh, this isreally hard to get off.

(01:01:18):
You've been working at it sohard, and if they're really
little, you might, you know,take two or three things in your
hand and say I wonder if any ofthese things would help get it
off.
What do you want to try first?
So we're kind of providing likethe opportunity for a solution,
or to kind of like let's trythis.
This one's not working, whatelse could we use?
Right, and same thing with kidsare building things.

(01:01:41):
Like things keep like making afort, like the ceiling won't
stay up.
Okay, well gosh, what could wedo?
What else do we need to do?
Do you have any ideas?
Or what should we try first?
Or what's the next.
So we might verbally kind ofcoach them into that.
Or we might be like let's do ittogether.
Pulling the string cheesecontainer you know, wrapper open
is really hard for little handsand so you'd be like you grab

(01:02:02):
it and I'm going to hold ontoyour hand, we're going to pull
together, right?
So you kind of give, and thenthey get the feeling of what, of
how much you knowproprioceptive pull, they need
to get that off.
So those are the kinds ofthings.
Now let's give just anotherexample for later.
Maybe your or maybe your kidwants to have a sleepover, but
they're not sure they can staythe whole night.
So then you maybe do like whata lot of parents do as well

(01:02:28):
let's do the sleep under Um, andso you just go until you know
10 or 11 o'clock and then I'llget you Um, and so they're not
sleeping over, but they're kindof going over and they're in
pajamas and they're staying upreally late.
And then you go get them.
So you're kind of edging in andgiving them reps.
Now I really want to caution.
Or let me give an example Ihave a senior in high school.
It'd be really easy for me tokeep telling him what to do, but

(01:02:48):
in six months he's going tomove out of my house and do
things on his own Right.
So I'm now thinking a lot aboutwhat are the skills he doesn't
yet have that he should bepracticing now, with my eyes and
my input, right?
So those, those are the skillshe doesn't yet have that he
should be practicing now, withmy eyes and my input, right.
So those, those are the kindsof things I remember one time I
had a client who was a teenagegirl who her parents had forbid

(01:03:10):
her to date and you all know howthat goes right and so but the
parents also were monitoring herdevices and she didn't know
that.
Now, keep listen, parents.
That's a whole other talk.
I encourage you to check outDevorah Heitner's work on how to
mentor instead of my, insteadof monitoring, and I have a
whole thing around that.

(01:03:30):
Like, the devices belong to me,which means I can look at them
anytime, which means if you wantto have something private that
is not something that anyoneelse would look at or hear you
need to do that face to face.
He's 18 now.
I don't look at his deviceanymore and I didn't ever that
much.
Anyway, I just would spot checkfrom you know, in case there
were some skills I needed tohelp build.
But I want him to have all ofthese skills when he goes off,

(01:03:56):
and so that means I have to givehim opportunities to do those
things.
I want to say just one otherthing around this.
Cindy, we're at a time inhistory in terms of parenting
trends and I'm guilty of thistoo of over-functioning for our
kids.
Yeah Right, it's, it's beyondthe helicopter parenting.
I actually had a colleague Iwon't give him credit because he
wouldn't want his name attachedto this who said we're so far

(01:04:18):
beyond helicopter parenting,it's so much more intrusive than
that.
We should call it suppositoryparenting because it's that
intrusive.
But we often over function forour kids, and here's what I want
to invite all of us to be doingInstead of scaffolding and
stretching our kids, we oftenjust fix it, we just do it, we
just handle it, and it's okay todo that.

(01:04:38):
Sometimes.
You know, if my kid calls meand he's like oh shoot, I left
my computer at home and I reallyneed it today, can you bring it
to me.
If I'm like I've got a podcastwith Cindy, I can't bring it to
you right now, I'm so sorry.
I know that's really stressfulso I don't have to drop my whole
life to do it.
But if I have time and I can doit and it's not an ongoing
issue, I'm happy to do that forhim.

(01:04:58):
And if it is an ongoing issue,that tells me there's a skill
that needs to be built and weneed to get some reps around
executive function and makingsure there's a checklist.
So there's some problem solving.
But imagine if I called myhusband was like oh my gosh, I'm
about to give this talk, Iforgot my computer.
And he'd be like you know whatyou really need to learn your
lesson, um?
That would be so unkind, youknow, so unkind.

(01:05:23):
You know, so we can fix andsolve for our kids at times.
That's what we do in a family.
We show up for each other inthose ways.
But so much of the time.
And you can just go on anycollege parent Facebook page,
like the parents chat and readwhat the parents are writing
about.
Like how do I make sure I geton the?
Get on my um the email thing sothat anytime my professor
emails my child, I'm also copied.
No, it's too much.

(01:05:44):
Oh yeah, that's nothing, don'tread those.
Pick any college and go to theparent Facebook page.
What we need to remember is thatmost of the time when we
over-function, I'll email yourteacher and make up a lie for
you.
So because you didn't get itdone, um, or whatever it is.
Anytime we over function, ifwe're really honest with

(01:06:05):
ourselves, it's almost alwaysbecause we it makes us feel
better to do it.
I over function because I feelless anxious because I'm
handling it and I don't want tofeel the uncomfortable feelings
of my child being uncomfortable,yeah.
So I really want to encourageyou all.
When it's like, do you over?
Do you step in and fix or not?

(01:06:26):
Do you step in and take overversus scaffolding and stretch?
Ask yourself is me stepping inand doing this helping my
child's development?
Like, is it good for my childfor me to do this this time, or
am I doing that because it makesme feel better and it's not
really in service of my child'sdevelopment?

(01:06:46):
It's a really important thingto reflect on no-transcript.

(01:07:27):
And sometimes when we're sooverwhelmed, we know we need
some reps around, some self-careand some regulation, but we're
too tired to come up with anyideas.
So actually that's what I didwith my team at the Center for
Connection today is we made along list of cues of safety and
cues of regulation and things wecan do to regulate, and I'm
actually going to make somethingabout it and put it on my

(01:07:48):
Instagram, but it might behelpful to just have some
post-it notes or a drop downmenu or a note on your phone of
like here are three things Iknow I can do, and you can even
make like a two minute list, afive minute list and a 10 minute
list.
I have 10 minutes.
Okay, here are three things Iknow I can do so that in the
moment you don't have to thinkabout, because for me I used to

(01:08:08):
have like regulation or playparalysis, meaning like my
husband would have the kids orI'd be like, oh my gosh, I have
an hour to myself or two hours,and then I didn't know what to
do with myself.
I spend like I'm trying to,then I'm trying to figure out,
and then I'm like, oh my god, Ionly have 45 minutes now and I
didn't even and I'm the time isgone and you know, then that's
really upsetting.

(01:08:28):
So then the guilt comes Rightand then you're like I'm never
gonna get an hour to myself, soI think that's a we'll call it
what you said a minute agopreventative play for ourselves.
Right Is coming up with some ofthose ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Tina, thank you so much for taking your time again
to chat with me.
I absolutely loved our call orchat.
The Way of Play is truly a bookthat I'm so grateful that you
put together and that you havewritten for all of us.
It's going to be that book thatwe're going to have on our
bookshelf and keep coming backto, and I hope that parents see

(01:09:04):
it that way.
I do, and I think it's one ofthose essential ones.
So thank you for the work thatyou put out there and the
knowledge you share.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Thank you so much.
And, by the way, some of thestrategies work on your
significant other too, sohopefully it's a book that will
be helpful in more than one way.
But thank you so much forhaving me, cindy, and thank you
for being a partner and doingthis important work to help
support parents in thisimportant, important job that we
all have to raise kids whothrive.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Thank you.
The links to Tina's book willbe for Canada and the US will be
in the show notes.
I will put your Instagramaccount and anything else you'd
like me to add to that.
Thank you to everyone who'slistening.
Please take a moment to ratethe podcast and leave a review
and subscribe on YouTube and wewill see you next Monday.
Thank you.