November 27, 2023 • 49 mins
Many parents with neurodivergent children have told me that parenting advice they read early helps them support their child. With the help of renowned neuropsychologist Dr. Julie Scorah, explore the unique challenges often faced by neurodivergent children.
We'll talk about the need to plan ahead to prevent stress, the significance of responding over reacting, and the importance of teaching your child coping skills in their calm moments. We'll also touch upon proactive strategies like relaxation techniques and utilizing sensory breaks and social stories. With Dr. Scorah's expertise and our collective experiences, we aim to navigate you through these troubled waters with patience and understanding.
In this final section, we'll explore the impact of neurodiversity on children's social skills and behavior. We'll underline the importance of teaching neurodivergent children alternative means of communication, which can lead to a marked improvement in their behavior over time. Moreover, we'll discuss the societal pressure on children to be social and share some strategies to support their social development in a manageable and beneficial way. So, join us on this enlightening journey and let's learn together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie (00:02):
Every behavior is communication, so your child is
always trying to communicatewith you with these behaviors.
Cindy (00:21):
Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode
of the curious neuron podcast.
My name is Cindy Havington andI am your host.
Today we are having a guestreturn because there were lots
of questions around the topicthat I discussed with her.
Dr Julie Scora is aneuropsychologist specializing
in neurodevelopmental conditionsfrom McGill University here in
(00:41):
Montreal, and the last time wespoke about some of the barriers
that exist in our system whenit comes to having a child
diagnosed or trying to get sometherapy for them or some
assistance.
But today we're following upthat conversation to focus more
on the social, emotional skillsand behavioral issues that we
might have as a parent with aneurodivergent child.
(01:04):
Before I begin, I'd like tothank the Tannenbaum Open
Science Institute for supportingthe curious neuron podcast.
I'd also like to thankBetterHelp and PocPoc.
Betterhelp is a way for you toaccess therapy online to make it
easy for you wherever you are.
You don't have to leave yourhome and we've been getting so
many responses from parents whohave joined.
Now you can get a discount aswell.
(01:26):
You can click the link in thebio, and PocPoc is an app the
first app that I ever downloadedfor my kids Open-ended, easy on
the eyes and the ears forparents, so that you don't have
to see flashing lights and heresounds that are disturbing.
Such an easy, beautiful,open-ended app that I've been
playing with my kids and I hopeyou enjoy the discounts for
(01:47):
those down in the show notes.
I'd also like to invite you tofollow me on Instagram at
curious underscore neuron.
You can visit our website atcuriousneuroncom.
We have an academy withwebinars and courses and PDFs
that you can purchase, and youcan also rate and review the
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If you haven't done so yet,please make sure that you are
subscribed to the podcast sothat you don't miss an episode
(02:09):
and rate it and review it, andsend me an email at info at
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I'm okay, we're still friends.
But come say hello and send mean email at info at
curiousneuroncom.
All right, I don't want to letyou wait any longer.
(02:30):
Here's my interview with DrJulie Scora.
Hi, dr Julie Scora, how are you?
Julie (02:37):
I am very well.
How are you?
Cindy (02:39):
I'm well.
Thank you for coming back.
I love having somebody comeback to the podcast because it
means it was a popular episodeand that people had lots of
questions, which is exactly whathappened with your episode.
Julie (02:50):
Okay, well, great, I am very happy to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Cindy (02:54):
So just so in case we have some listeners that hadn't
heard your episode.
First of all, I will put thelink to that in our show notes,
but I just wanted to share thatwe spoke about some of the
barriers that happen when you'relooking to get a diagnosis or
some services right withneurodivergent children.
Julie (03:10):
That's right.
Cindy (03:11):
Yeah, now what happened is that I got a lot of questions
from parents that werequestioning, you know, if they
have a neurodivergent child andthey truly are struggling with
social and social emotionalskills with their child.
They feel like they don't havea lot of resources, so they were
hoping for us to have thisfollow up conversation so that
they understand their child alittle bit more.
(03:32):
So can we maybe begin aroundthat in terms of, you know, when
we talk about tantrums a lot,but then is this what we're
looking for?
Is this similar in aneurodivergent child?
Or I hear a lot of parents talkabout meltdowns and saying that
they're much longer and it'svery difficult to help the child
regulate.
So what are we looking at interms of the differences?
Julie (03:55):
Yeah.
So a lot of autistic selfadvocates and I'm going to
sometimes maybe use the wordautistic individual and
sometimes person on the spectrumor person with autism.
I do vary my language becausethere are people who have
different preferences.
I just want to sort of say thatat the beginning in terms of
using identity first or personfirst language.
(04:17):
So I try to be inclusive andkind of switch it up.
But there's people who talkabout there are sort of the very
autistic people that I'vespoken with, and autistic self
advocates have described theexperience of a meltdown and
even sometimes what they call anautistic meltdown.
That can be different than atantrum and it's because it's
(04:42):
for different reasons.
So I think the impetus behindan autistic meltdown is more
that the person feelsoverwhelmed, overloaded and
unable to cope in that momentand they need time to regulate
(05:02):
again.
And that's why sometimes thesemeltdowns can be quite long.
They can last a long time.
There can be a lot of bigemotions that are happening and
that kind of meltdown isdifferent from what we consider
a tantrum in most cases, becauseit's not being done to get
(05:23):
something that they wantnecessarily or to protest
against something that theydon't want.
It can just be because thatperson is just completely
overloaded and unable to cope,and so it's important to kind of
distinguish between reallywhat's causing that particular
behavior so that you know whatto do about it.
Cindy (05:45):
So if a parent is listening and has noticed that
their child who is on thespectrum kind of struggles with
that moment of coming back fromschool or daycare where there's
that meltdown period which Ithink many parents see that with
their child because they'reoverwhelmed from their school
day, but now one parent might beable to help their child
(06:05):
regulate, versus the parentwho's having this child just
have this meltdown and not beable to regulate them, how can a
parent, if they point out thatcertain period of the day but
they can't change the fact thatthey're in school, what can they
do to support their child?
Julie (06:20):
Well, there's many different things that can be
done and hopefully what the beststrategies would be would be to
prevent that from happening inthe first place.
So when we talk about behaviormodification or behavior
intervention, we talk aboutthere being proactive strategies
and reactive strategies.
(06:40):
So the proactive strategies arethings that you do before the
behavior occurs to try toprevent it from happening, and
then sometimes maybe you're notdoing those things effectively
or at all, and then the behavioroccurs and then there's
strategies that you might use toreact to that once the behavior
(07:03):
does occur.
So it's always best to try toimplement proactive strategies
to stop that from happening inthe first place, and really one
of the best things to do in thatcase is to build functional
skills to try to make sure thatthe child is able to communicate
their needs and wants earlyenough that they don't reach
(07:25):
that state.
So a lot of children maybe,especially our neurodivergent
children maybe they can't alwayscommunicate very effectively
what they're feeling, and sosometimes they can get a little
bit too far into their emotionsbefore somebody catches on that
(07:49):
they're not doing okay.
So teaching them means ofcommunicating that earlier is
actually one of the beststrategies.
Obviously, that's not somethingyou can do in the moment when
the behavior has occurred.
But it's really important totry to identify what is causing
this behavior and then put inthose proactive strategies that
(08:10):
can help maybe derail a meltdownthat might happen.
But there's lots of otherproactive strategies too that we
can also discuss if you want totalk about.
Cindy (08:23):
So yeah, I guess parents are wondering.
From what I understand, youkind of want to be the detective
right, kind of trying to figureout what's happening, what's
contributing to that.
So if you know that there'ssome sort of we hear a lot about
sensory sensitivities and theseoverloads is this something a
parent can be more mindful of?
What's happening, let's say, inthe car, maybe coming back from
(08:46):
school, rather than blastingmusic to kind of lower it, or
the opposite, depending on whatthe needs of that child are.
Julie (08:51):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We talk about in psychology,about functional behavior
analysis, which sounds like afancy term, but really it's
something that most people doquite naturally, most parents do
quite naturally, but sometimesthey don't do it necessarily in
a systematic way.
What we do as psychologists isto do that very systematically,
(09:12):
and what we do is we take abehavior that we are finding
challenging, that we want to tryto maybe modify, and we track
that behavior over a period oftime.
That helps us determine what iscausing that behavior, what are
the things or the antecedentsthat are happening right before
the behavior occurs, that leadto that behavior happening, and
(09:35):
then also what happens rightafter that behavior.
Are there things that otherpeople are doing, we're doing or
the child is doing, thatactually reinforces that
behavior or sustains thatbehavior?
So those are important things tolook at too what happens before
, what happens after, theantecedents and the consequences
.
And then that allows us tofigure out over a period of time
(09:56):
, when you've tracked it, whatit is that's triggering that
behavior and maybe what'ssustaining it.
Once you do that, once you'veplayed that detective role, then
you can determine whatstrategies might be useful to
help modify that behavior.
But if you don't figure thatout first, you're flying blind.
(10:16):
You could try lots of differentstrategies that won't work
because you're not actuallyhitting the nail on the head as
to what's causing that behavior.
So it's really important to tryto determine that first.
Take the time to figure it out,see what might be causing that
or triggering that, and then youcan start making those changes.
Cindy (10:37):
We hear you mentioned something about the aftermath of
this happening and how werespond to them.
I know that there's a lot oflike parenting advice out there
and they talk about like howco-regulation is very important
and how the way that we kind ofsupport our child in regulating
their emotions makes a bigdifference.
Are we seeing, is this just asimportant with a neurodivergent
(11:00):
child?
And how might that lookdifferently if you're a parent
of a neurodivergent child interms of like that co-regulation
piece?
Julie (11:09):
Yeah, it's absolutely, extremely important for any
person, for any child, to have aperson who's able to help them
regulate and help bring themthrough that situation.
Sometimes a parent's effortsmight do the opposite.
So sometimes parents try tohelp their child regulate, but
(11:30):
what they're doing is actuallyoverstimulating the child even
more.
So it is important to be reallyin tune, as much as you can be,
with your child's cues.
We talk about in behaviormodification the fact that every
behavior is communication.
So your child is always tryingto communicate with you with
these behaviors, and so it'simportant to try to listen to
(11:51):
that and figure out.
What are they trying to tell you, and it can be difficult to do,
but trying to be in tune withoh, this thing seems to work,
you know, or they seem to needthis kind of environment, let's
say, to help them calm down.
The things that they may needmight require you to adapt your
(12:15):
environment a little bit.
So we do talk about things likehaving a quiet corner set up,
sometimes a little tent indoors,filled with blankets and
cushions and other things thatthe child might find soothing,
and so sometimes it's as simpleas just directing them to that
space and the parent maybedoesn't need to do a lot more
(12:36):
beyond that, but certainly oftenneurodivergent children do need
a little bit more help becausethey don't always have the tools
that come as naturally to themto help them cope as other
children start to learn overtime, and so sometimes they need
to be taught that a little bitmore systematically than a
(12:57):
neurotypical child.
Cindy (12:58):
And what we spoke about, the parent and I know that
sometimes as parents, we youknow our children catch us in
these moments.
That might not be our bestmoments and then it's hard for
us to kind of stay cool, Like alot of parents here, like be
calm when your parent and whenyour child has lots of emotions,
but it's so hard in that momentand I know that parents kind of
have the guilt around that yousaid something about.
(13:20):
Like you know, sometimes we'renot really.
We're kind of not making itworse but we're adding to it.
What are some things thatparents can keep in mind, you
know, in terms of like try toavoid doing this or saying this
in those moments, especiallywhen you're struggling with
regulating yourself.
Julie (13:34):
Yeah, that can be very certainly rushed and you're in a
hurry and you're feelingstressed.
It can be difficult to stepback and try to read cool and
calm.
Absolutely, one of the mainthings is to try to avoid that
situation in the first place.
So, you know, I often tellparents make sure you have
plenty of time right, as much asyou can, to get ready in the
(13:58):
morning or pick your child upfrom school or go and get
groceries, trying to plan aheadthose things so that you don't
end up in a situation whereyou're rushed and having to deal
with the behavior you know in astressful moment is right.
But of course it's easy to saythat and very difficult to do in
real life.
Sometimes there is a way tokind of plan your day around.
(14:20):
Okay, this might trigger mychild and therefore you know I
need to be mindful that thismight not be the right time to
go to, you know, get groceriesor something like that, to avoid
times when they might be hungryor tired.
Obviously, if you can't do that, there are things that you can
(14:42):
do to try to remind yourself tostep back.
Sometimes I tell parents becausesometimes parents think I don't
know what to do.
You know and they grasp to tryto find a solution and find
something that they can do toreact in the moment.
And sometimes I tell parentsyou know what.
It's actually okay to just takea moment and breathe a few
(15:05):
times and really try to thinkabout what your reaction should
be before you react.
It's not always necessary tojump in right away.
Sometimes it's okay to let yourchild maybe have a little bit of
that meltdown for a little bitas you think about what might be
the best response.
(15:25):
And it's very hard for parentsbecause we want to get in, we
want to fix it, we want torespond.
But sometimes taking thatminute to just reflect on what
should I be doing here can bevery helpful and take those deep
breaths and try to figure outwhat strategy might work best in
that moment and definitelyhaving a plan in advance.
(15:47):
That's why I talked about theseproactive and reactive
strategies, kind of figuring outwhat it is that might drive
that behavior.
And sometimes you're going todo all the proactive things you
can and the behavior is stillgoing to happen.
But it's important to try toplan in advance what is my
response going to be if it doeshappen?
Cindy (16:04):
And what are some of the?
Julie (16:04):
strategies that I'm going to use when those behaviors
come up.
And then you already know whatyour response is going to be and
then you just need to implementit.
And sometimes the other trickis try to think about your child
as being someone else's child.
Like, take a moment to think.
Sometimes, if you're feelingreally upset, think I'm going to
(16:26):
pretend this is somebody else'schild.
What would I do?
Respond to them, because oftenwe are more patient.
I'm talking with other people'schildren, so sometimes that is
a little trick that works.
I know that I think what wouldI do with my patients that I
treat in this moment instead ofmy own child, and that actually
(16:47):
makes me respond better to it.
Cindy (16:49):
I think that's the key word right.
You mentioned react and thenrespond.
I think that's really importantfor us to highlight that,
because we are quick to react toour kids.
You know they're not listening.
We repeat ourselves and this isany parent we react to their
behavior or to their bigemotions, but when we actually
take that time to respond,there's a very big difference.
(17:09):
There's a pause.
There's maybe we need to be ourfriend as well too right in our
minds.
It could be a little kinder toourselves sometimes or just
remind ourselves that we'retired.
With the today's we had thehour change right and yesterday
and today's been quite adifficult day in my house and
it's like we have to just beaware that behavior will be a
(17:30):
little bit different this weekin our home and I'm trying to be
mindful of that.
But that pause is just.
It could be a split second, butin our mind it's enough for us
to kind of reconnect withourselves and then connect with
our child.
It makes such a huge difference.
I love that you've used thosetwo words.
Julie (17:48):
Yeah, it's very important to remember that.
You don't have to reactimmediately, right, right, if
you have to take a minute, yourchild as long as they're safe,
it's gonna be okay.
You just need to kind of thinkabout what you're gonna do.
And I say that.
But there are times when thechild is not safe, and that does
happen too with ourneurodivergent kids.
(18:10):
Sometimes they are engaging inself-injurious behavior, they're
thinking their heads on things.
So first and foremost thing ismake sure they're safe.
Once you've established theirsafety, then you can take a
minute to think about what youneed to do next.
Cindy (18:25):
I do wanna jump into the behavior part, because that is
what we see externally.
Sometimes, when there aremeltdowns or emotions, that will
kind of show itself in abehavior that could be
challenging for us as parents.
First I just wanna ask onelittle question, because I've
seen this very often, or heardthis, where parents say I heard
this advice online and I appliedit while my child was screaming
(18:47):
.
I told them take a deep breath,remember your meditation or
whatever it was.
But I see that as like theright tool, but at the wrong
time, because at that momentwhen your child is, I picture a
mountain for kids, but justthey're at the top of that
mountain and there's just no waythat we can get to them.
Is this even?
Is this more like, I guess,amplified?
(19:09):
Or is it similar in ND kids?
Julie (19:12):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Definitely it's about teachingthose skills at times when
they're calm.
So I talked about how often thebest proactive strategy is to
teach skills right.
So if a child is unable tocommunicate their needs and
wants, then the best thing to dois to teach them a means of
communication, and it can besomething as simple as a hand
(19:33):
gesture or a picture that theyhold up.
It doesn't have to be talkingor words, it needs to be
something that they can do, andonce they have more skills in
their toolbox, then often thosebehaviors will diminish on their
own.
And some of the skills that weneed to teach are things like
how to relax, how to calmyourself, how to cope in those
(19:53):
moments when you're feelingstressed out, and so often.
What I recommend is sometimesthere are sensory strategies
that parents can do, and so theycan institute little sensory
breaks where they help theirchild perform different sensory
activities on a regular basisthroughout the day or throughout
certain activities that mightbe stressful for them.
(20:15):
So those are things that youcan incorporate ahead of time so
that the child learns how to dothose things.
But also I often give parentslittle relaxation books or
social stories that teach achild how to do those relaxation
strategies like taking deepbreaths and counting to 10 and
squeezing a stress ball orwhatever it might be that they
(20:39):
find soothing.
The time to do that is to readthose books with your child and
practice those strategies intimes when they're calm already.
Cindy (20:49):
Right.
Julie (20:50):
And do that regularly.
So you might do that every dayor every second day and we go
through our little routine.
Maybe it's a nice thing to doat bedtime, if bedtime isn't
already a stressful time, ifthey're happy at all.
So you incorporate those thingsat times when they are calm and
they're available to learn,because nobody is available to
(21:11):
learn anything when they'refeeling stressed out and
emotional and upset Right,myself included.
So that's not the time to tryto teach anything.
So if you catch them whenthey're calm and you can teach
them those strategies, then onceyou start to see the behavior
start to build and a mildewstart to happen, then you can
(21:34):
then sometimes prompt them touse those strategies and you
have a lot more chance of beingsuccessful if you do that when
they're already pre-prepared andthey've pre-learned how to do
those things and you can kind ofsay oh, remember, let's
practice the deep breaths andlet's go to the quiet corner and
let's put on our soothing musicor whatever it might be.
(21:56):
So definitely, definitely.
You're absolutely right thatthe right tools need to be
implemented at the right time inorder for them to be useful.
Cindy (22:07):
So it's sort of at the when you're noticing that ascent
.
I guess if I picture thatmountain right Like they're
ascending and you notice thatthey're starting to show these
visible signs of beingdysregulated or something is
happening with their emotions,that's a good time to kind of
say like, remember those toolsthat we've been practicing right
, not when they're in thosemoments where you just can't
connect with them, and ithappens to all kids too.
Julie (22:30):
yeah, yeah, and I mean I will say that sometimes it can
be hard because sometimes somekids go from zero to 60 very
fast and so there may not betime before you can notice those
signs coming, before they'realready in a fall meltdown.
So that can be tricky.
But that's where trying to takenotice of those times when
(22:53):
those things are likely tohappen and then building in
those calming strategies orthose sensory strategies into
that task or situation beforethe behavior happens is
important, right To just kind oftry to set them up for success
from the beginning yeah, andwhat happens in the situation
(23:14):
where you just explained, whensometimes they might be trying
to harm themselves or harmsomebody around them?
Cindy (23:20):
I've had parents reach out that don't know how to
respond to that, because there'sstill a point where you're
trying to help the childregulate, but there's also
behavioral issue or situation inthat moment where you don't
want them to hurt a sibling orto hurt you or themselves.
How do you balance that andwhat does I guess?
What does the consequence orwhat does discipline look like
for that child in particular?
Julie (23:43):
Yeah, those are probably the trickiest because, obviously
, when a child is potentiallyharming themselves and or others
, that's when parents reallydefinitely can't stop themselves
from intervening and it'simportant, obviously, to keep
the child safe.
(24:03):
Sometimes it can be as simpleas just putting a mattress or a
cushion or something betweentheir head and the floor and
that's all you can do in thatmoment.
Because if they are having sucha big meltdown and I have seen
this where it is dangerous forpeople around them and there's
(24:26):
really nothing else to be doneother than just trying to make
sure that there is cushioningthere so that they don't hurt
themselves.
So sometimes it's really aboutjust doing those quick things to
make sure that they're safe andthen kind of waiting it out,
because sometimes if you try toget in their space and you try
to physically restrain them,that can make it worse, right.
(24:53):
So, and sometimes not, I meanit's tricky because some kids
respond well to what we calldeep pressure, right.
So if you kind of give them abare hug and you put your arms
around them, and sometimes thatkind of pressure can calm them
down, that's where, again, youneed to really pay attention to
your child, to kind of know whatthey're gonna respond to and
(25:15):
what's gonna make it worse.
So sometimes there's nothing tobe done other than to just try
to do something to make surethat they're safe.
And then, if they're bangingtheir head on the floor but
you've gotten a pillow or acushion underneath them and
they're not hurting themselves,sometimes you just kind of wait
until they're done before youcan kind of move on and try to
(25:39):
do anything about it.
And it's unfortunate it's sohard to watch, but sometimes
that can be the best thing to do, because our efforts at those
moments can actually sometimesexacerbate the behavior or make
it prolonged beyond what theywould do if you just sort of
took a step back.
(25:59):
So it's really about justtrying to find those things that
can keep them safe in thatmoment.
Cindy (26:06):
After everything has happened, do you I'm assuming
you have a conversation withyour child and try to explain?
Would it work the same way?
Are you explaining maybeperhaps different ways that they
could go about it when it comesto having their meltdowns, or
are they not in control of itwhen it's happening?
Julie (26:27):
Well, it really depends on the child.
So some children definitelywould not have the verbal
comprehension to be able tounderstand an explanation and to
be able to engage in that kindof conversation.
Some kids would.
So it really depends on whattheir language level is so that
(26:48):
you can determine whether or notthat's something that you can
understand.
And certainly, like I said, themain thing is, I think trying
to explain to them probablyisn't gonna be the most helpful
strategy, because in that momentthat explanation is gonna fly
(27:08):
out of their head right.
So that's where focusing onbuilding skills is really the
thing to do, because often thesemeltdowns happen because a
child is not able to communicatewhat they're needing or they
are getting overwhelmed bycertain stimuli.
And so that's where thoseproactive strategies are so
(27:30):
important, because the more youbuild in skills to help them
learn how to communicate betteror at all what they need, or you
build in that stress release asthe situation is unfolding, the
less and less these things willhappen.
So really I always try to focuson okay, sometimes these
(27:54):
meltdowns will happen andsometimes they will engage in
these behaviors, but the goal isto try to teach them enough
skills so that over time theyjust diminish and you can
prevent them from happening atall, so that you don't have to
worry about how to react to them, and often that does work.
Cindy (28:14):
I'm sure a parent who's listening to this, perhaps their
child is a little bit youngerand if they have a
neurodiversion child they'rewondering like is there an end
to this, or will this kind ofwill the level perhaps decrease
a little bit?
So I'm sure it feels good tokind of hear that we do have to
offer them skills.
It's not that it mightdisappear, from what I'm
understanding, but it will getbetter with time.
Julie (28:38):
In many cases in many cases it will, if the child is
really taught those skills.
And those skills are not easyto teach, right?
I mean, trying to teachcommunication to some kiddos can
be very, very challenging.
Neurodivergent kids, kids onthe spectrum, often have very
(28:59):
difficult time with language.
They have a difficult timeusing gestures as well.
And so trying to teach themmeans to communicate can be
really tricky, and unfortunatelyhere in our context not many
children are offered theopportunity to learn alternative
means of communication.
There are things like what wecall AAC augmentative and
(29:21):
alternative communicationdevices and that's really just
not offered very often in ourprograms here for kids on the
spectrum.
We don't have enough of that,there are not enough experts in
that and it's just not beingdone systematically enough
unfortunately.
And so I have seen many kidswho end up as teenagers and they
(29:45):
still don't have a means tocommunicate and nobody's ever
taught them a way to communicatetheir needs and their wants and
their issues, and so thosebehaviors often will continue.
But I have also seen the flipside, where I have seen kids who
were taught those communicationstrategies and they were able
(30:09):
to communicate better and thosebehaviors did decrease over time
.
And so I really do think thatthat is the most important thing
, but unfortunately it's oftenjust not being offered to
families here I find in ourprograms as much as it should.
Cindy (30:27):
Is it common in the States?
I know that there are lots oflisteners in the US.
It is okay.
Julie (30:35):
Yeah, I think that sometimes the way that the
interventions work they're withtheir insurance system.
Sometimes they have access to awider variety of things.
Certainly here in Quebec, ifyou get services through the
public system, we have a verycookie cutter approach to our
(30:57):
autism intervention For example.
Everybody sort of gets put onthe same list for the same
services and we don't have a lotof variety that's tailored to
the child.
Unfortunately, if you goprivately and certainly in the
US, where there are differentproviders and people's insurance
might be for different types ofthings there are often more
(31:22):
options.
And even in other parts ofCanada there are some provinces
that do allow parents to go outand sort of purchase the
services for their child.
They're kind of given thegovernment kind of gives them
control over the funding andthen they go and they choose the
(31:46):
services that make sense fortheir child, usually hopefully
based on recommendations byprofessionals.
But and I have seen those kindsof systems work extremely well
for kids.
But here we are very much in asituation where there's sort of
a one size fits all approach,unfortunately, yeah, it's
(32:09):
unfortunate.
Cindy (32:09):
you know, when it comes to these services, I wish that
it was kind of more across theboard with what you're saying in
terms of it not being thatcookie cutter approach, because
we know, especially withneurodivergent kids, that they
do need very specific needs andthey're not the same and they're
you know it's, yeah, Okay.
Julie (32:28):
It's a very heterogeneous group and not all children need
ABA, which is what,unfortunately, they're going to
get, if they get services at all, which, unfortunately, is also
a problem.
Cindy (32:45):
Yeah, what can a parent?
Now I guess I have a feelingthat some parents that are
listening to this who don't haveneurodivergent child or a child
who just hasn't been diagnosedyet, but feel like some of the
things that you're mentioningare things that they're seeing
in their home.
So I do want to address thatbefore we move on to like the
last sort of question that dealsaround social skills with kids.
(33:07):
But I do want to.
Maybe we can talk about somesigns that a parent should be,
you know, aware of, because Iknow some parents sometimes ask
of what is the differencebetween a they'll use the term
normal, right, what's normalwhen it comes to tantrums?
But what I like to say is like,what should you be looking out
for in terms of signs that youcould perhaps talk to your
(33:28):
doctor about it, because thetantrum, or big emotion, is more
than what it should bedevelopmentally at that age.
So what should parents belooking out for?
Julie (33:39):
Right?
Well, when it comes to thosekinds of behaviors, there is
obviously variation between kids, right?
So even neurotypical kids willdiffer in how well they regulate
themselves and how long ittakes them to learn those skills
and what kinds of tantrumsthey'll have.
So there is a fair amount ofvariability there already.
(34:02):
I would say the main red flagsaround those kinds of behaviors
would be, first of all, I thinkanytime a child is engaging in
self-injury, that's an importantthing to pay attention to and
to talk to your doctor about.
And neurotypical kids willengage in self-injury sometimes,
too Often, they will do it in away where they kind of
(34:25):
experiment with it a little bit.
They might bang their head onsomething and then look to see
what their parents' reaction is.
Yes, and they will often sortof figure out pretty quickly
that that doesn't feel very goodfor them and they sometimes
won't continue to do it.
Sometimes they will a littlebit if they see a good reaction
(34:48):
and they get a A.
But quite often if we have kidswho are engaging in self-injury
and they're not necessarilychecking in with the parent to
kind of look at that parent'sreaction and they are just sort
of doing it in a way that seemslike they may not have a lot of
control over their behavior.
(35:08):
That, to me, is something thatI would be concerned about and
would talk to the doctor about,because most children aren't
going to purposely harmthemselves or they're not going
to often do it for long if theyare typically developing and
(35:30):
they are looking for a reactionor getting the consequence that
they like.
So that's a flag for me.
I also feel like just the lengthof time.
So a lot of kids will wearthemselves out after 20 minutes,
half an hour maybe, but we hearabout some parents who talk
(35:53):
about their children having itmeltdown.
That can last 45 minutes, anhour, over an hour Once it gets
to be quite long like that.
That is something that I wouldalso want to bring up to my
doctors.
That's really about sort of howlong is it going on for how
much do they seem like they'rereally able to control
(36:14):
themselves?
When you do get involved and youtry to help them calm
themselves and regulate again,how long does that take?
How do they respond to that?
Those are the things I wouldwatch for, but certainly those
are usually not things that arehappening alone.
(36:34):
So quite often there are othersigns that we need to be mindful
of as well.
So if a child is having otherdevelopmental delays and they
are not keeping up with theirpeers in terms of their language
development or their motordevelopment or their social
development, other things likethat, then that would definitely
(36:55):
prompt me to be even moreconcerned.
If I see that there are thosekinds of challenging behaviors,
or we sometimes call thembehaviors that challenge, and as
well there are otherdevelopmental delays, I would
then be sure to talk to mypediatrician about that.
Cindy (37:16):
Okay, thank you.
I wanted to bring that upbecause, as we were talking, I
had a feeling that some parentswill question well, if I'm
seeing this in my home and I'mglad that you also said it's not
always in isolation.
There has to be some other sortof signs that we're seeing.
We've you've mentioned now afew times in terms of the
communication and the socialskills.
I'd love, I'd love, to end ourconversation with this, because
(37:37):
I find that as a society and asparents, we often put a lot of
pressure on our kids to besocial and to develop these
skills.
I hear parents saying you know,when they're 12 month old starts
daycare.
You know, I want them to learnto be social right now, and
there's a lot that goes aroundthat there's a huge importance
on that.
But then we know that in ourdivergent children or kids on
the spectrum, that it's not thepath or this.
(37:58):
You know, the what we expectedto be is not going to look the
same.
How do we support our child whois on the spectrum or
neurodivergent, who might bestruggling with the social
aspect that we expect them to bedeveloping?
You know, we we from a verygood place obviously want them
to have friends and, to you know, support that part of their
(38:20):
development.
How can we do that as parents?
Julie (38:24):
Well, that can be very tricky and I would say that it's
important to just maybe changethe expectations a little bit.
So, for example, many parentswill put their children into a
sport to try to help themsocialize.
So they might put them intosoccer and want them to play in
(38:47):
a soccer team because they think, okay, they're going to be
there amongst a group of kidsand they're going to, you know,
have to interact.
That might be a level of demandthat is just too high, and so I
often tell parents maybe try adifferent activity that doesn't
have that level of demandregarding cooperation with a
(39:08):
group of kids.
You know, group play and thatinteractive play in a group can
be very, very tricky when you'realso, at the same time, trying
to actually learn how tomotorically play a sport.
There's a lot of things goingon and there are a lot of
neurodivergent kids who alsostruggle with motor skills and
(39:31):
coordination, and so that can beeven more challenging.
So I often would recommendthings like maybe think about a
sport that doesn't have the samedemand for interactive play.
So it can be something like amartial arts class where you
know you're in a group of kidsbut you are kind of paying
(39:54):
attention to your instructor andpracticing, doing some of the
movements you know on your ownbut then paired up, maybe
one-on-one right, or a swimmingclass where again you're paying
attention to the instructor andyou're doing things alone or
with the instructor and notnecessarily in some kind of you
(40:16):
know, interactive joint play.
So it's about trying to justadjust those expectations a
little bit.
And we do also know that forkids on the spectrum often just
having one close friend, youknow, can be enough.
That can be protective, thatcan make a big difference.
(40:37):
We don't need to have a giantgroup of friends, but one good
friend is great, you know.
That can be a very protectivething.
And so Definitely it's abouttrying to support them socially,
but not push so hard that itbecomes really stressful, and
(41:00):
pay attention to what it is thatthey want.
Some kids on the spectrum areactually quite motivated to want
to socialize and theydefinitely want to have friends
and they want to play with otherkids.
Some children on the spectrumhave less of a motivation
towards that.
So it's really about figuringout where your child is at and
(41:23):
then figuring out what might bethe right level of socialization
for them and, of course, ifthey really are wanting to go
and make friends, teaching themthose strategies, building those
skills right.
This is how we have aconversation.
This is how we approachsomebody and ask them to play.
This is how we might say helloto someone and give them a
(41:44):
compliment.
There's a lot of these kinds ofskills that we can teach that
are not necessarily coming sonaturally, and all we need to do
is to make it very explicit.
These are the essentials tohaving a conversation and this
is what you need to know, andthose can be taught to kids,
(42:05):
often using social stories, butdefinitely that's what I would
suggest is try to just adjustyour expectations to your child
and where they're at regardingtheir socialization, and then
teach those skills that they aremaybe missing.
Cindy (42:23):
And what I'm hearing also is maybe scaffolding things for
them right, Going to the parkand assuming that they'll go out
and maybe make a friend or playwith somebody might not be the
situation or, like you said,they might be motivated to go
but then not approach it thesame way that we would expect
them to.
So I guess breaking it down forthem into the baby steps right,
(42:44):
so that they know exactlywhat's step one or two and how
to go about it.
Julie (42:49):
Yeah, and it's also about being mindful of the fact that
some environments are going tobe more challenging for them to
socialize.
So going to the park, forexample, sometimes that can be
overwhelming because there are alot of kids, there is a lot of
activity and there's a lot ofnoise, and so sometimes that's
not the ideal scenario for themto be able to go and try to
practice those social skills andtry to make a friend or play
(43:12):
with another child.
Sometimes it can be better ifyou arrange a play date and you
have one child over to your ownhome where your child is
comfortable and they have theirthings around them, and you keep
it very short and you plan anactivity so that we know exactly
what we're going to be doing.
We're going to be doing theseparticular steps.
It's not sort of vague in termsof what they're expected to do.
(43:37):
We plan an activity, we do thesteps.
We might have a visual scheduleshowing us first we're going to
do this, then this, then this,and when the activity is over
the friend goes, you know, andso it's a nice little packaged
time for them where they reallyknow what to expect for them to
be able to practice those skillsthat can make it easier.
Sometimes having unstructuredplay is just really, really
(43:59):
challenging.
But if you can structure it forthem and say, okay, we're going
to do this little activity,that can really help, because
then they kind of know this iswhat I got to do.
Cindy (44:10):
Got it.
Thank you for sharing that,because I think it's really
important for parents to hearthis and understand what that
might look like in their home,because I don't think, for the
emails that I get, I don't thinkeverybody gets services or gets
this kind of guidance when itcomes to support.
You know people emailing mefrom different countries as well
that just don't even have theirchild hasn't even seen a doctor
.
They see the signs and symptoms, but there's no diagnosis.
(44:32):
So I think it's important forthem to hear all this to be able
to support their child in a waythat helps them with their
development too.
Julie (44:39):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think the only other thing I
would say is and I think I'vesaid this a few times, but
really, you know anything I'msaying today strategies and
advice.
You know, it really does depend, though, on the child.
And so I'm trying to kind ofgive some general ideas, but at
(45:00):
the same time, it is soimportant for people to talk to
a professional clinician, ateacher, somebody who can offer
strategies tailored to thatparticular child, because every
child is so different and theirneeds are so different, and it's
really about meeting them wherethey're at and trying to build
(45:21):
on the skills that they have andthat's not the same for
everybody.
And so, you know, I do want tojust sort of, you know, give
that little caveat that some ofthe things that I said today you
know parents might go and tryand that might not be the right
thing for their child, right?
So it's important that theyreally do try to, as much as
(45:42):
possible, seek out someone thatcan give them those very
individualized strategies.
Cindy (45:49):
Are there any resources that you know, any websites that
you recommend or a book thatyou might think of?
I know I'm putting on the spot,but anything that you.
If not, it's okay, we can addit to the show notes if you
can't remember of any, butsomething that can help a parent
, you know, get started with thefirst steps and how to support
their child.
Julie (46:07):
Well, like I said, I tend to focus a lot on building
skills, and so I definitelyalways recommend programs that
are geared towards, often,communication, because that is
usually the biggest challengeamongst this particular group of
kids.
So programs like the Hannonprogram, more Than Words, those
(46:28):
kinds of books and More ThanWords also has, I think you know
, a video that parents can watchthings like that can be really
useful to help parents learn howto intervene with their kids.
So in my lab we have a researchstudy that is running an
intervention trial using thecaregiver skills training, which
(46:53):
is a parent mediatedintervention that was developed
by the WHO and that particularprogram was designed to be able
to be adapted to many differentcountries and contexts and it's
available in lots of places andin lots of languages.
(47:15):
And the whole goal of thatprogram is exactly that to kind
of teach parents how to workwith their kids through play and
through home routines thatthey're already doing, to just
try to stimulate theircommunication skills, stimulate
their play skills, stimulatetheir social skills.
So that kind of program I thinkis super interesting for
(47:39):
parents to look up as well.
And the good thing about thisCST, what we call the caregiver
skills training program, is thatthere is now an electronic
module for it.
So even though it is somethingthat has started to be offered
more and more byinterventionists in different
places, there is this electronicversion that parents can sort
(48:01):
of self guide themselves throughso that they can do the program
and learn some of these skillson their own online to be able
to know kind of how to just howto reach their kids and the
things that they're alreadydoing at home in a way that
stimulates that development.
And really, like I said, thoseare the main things is building
(48:21):
those skills and trying to getin there and the functional
skills to help prevent thosebehaviors that can be
challenging.
Cindy (48:30):
Perfect.
Can we add that link to theshow notes so that parents could
?
Is there a link that they couldjoin or to learn more about
that study?
Julie (48:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
The program, yes, Perfect.
Cindy (48:40):
We will add everything.
I know the parents arelistening saying I need that
link, so we will add everythingand the resources that Julie
mentioned.
Thank you, julie, for coming onfor a second time and for
having conversations with me.
I know this will have like morefollow up questions, but I
truly appreciate your help andyou coming back.
Julie (48:58):
Thank you again for having me back, and I was so
happy that there was actuallyinterest in demand for me to
come back, so I feel veryhonored that I was invited.
So thank you, thank you.
Cindy (49:13):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, everyone, and pleasedon't forget to rate the
podcast and leave a review andfollow us on Instagram at
curious underscore neuron.
Thank you.
Every behavior is communication, so your child is
always trying to communicatewith you with these behaviors.
Cindy (00:21):
Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode
of the curious neuron podcast.
My name is Cindy Havington andI am your host.
Today we are having a guestreturn because there were lots
of questions around the topicthat I discussed with her.
Dr Julie Scora is aneuropsychologist specializing
in neurodevelopmental conditionsfrom McGill University here in
(00:41):
Montreal, and the last time wespoke about some of the barriers
that exist in our system whenit comes to having a child
diagnosed or trying to get sometherapy for them or some
assistance.
But today we're following upthat conversation to focus more
on the social, emotional skillsand behavioral issues that we
might have as a parent with aneurodivergent child.
(01:04):
Before I begin, I'd like tothank the Tannenbaum Open
Science Institute for supportingthe curious neuron podcast.
I'd also like to thankBetterHelp and PocPoc.
Betterhelp is a way for you toaccess therapy online to make it
easy for you wherever you are.
You don't have to leave yourhome and we've been getting so
many responses from parents whohave joined.
Now you can get a discount aswell.
(01:26):
You can click the link in thebio, and PocPoc is an app the
first app that I ever downloadedfor my kids Open-ended, easy on
the eyes and the ears forparents, so that you don't have
to see flashing lights and heresounds that are disturbing.
Such an easy, beautiful,open-ended app that I've been
playing with my kids and I hopeyou enjoy the discounts for
(01:47):
those down in the show notes.
I'd also like to invite you tofollow me on Instagram at
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You can visit our website atcuriousneuroncom.
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If you haven't done so yet,please make sure that you are
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(02:09):
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So please come say hello, evenif you haven't rated it and you
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I'm okay, we're still friends.
But come say hello and send mean email at info at
curiousneuroncom.
All right, I don't want to letyou wait any longer.
(02:30):
Here's my interview with DrJulie Scora.
Hi, dr Julie Scora, how are you?
Julie (02:37):
I am very well.
How are you?
Cindy (02:39):
I'm well.
Thank you for coming back.
I love having somebody comeback to the podcast because it
means it was a popular episodeand that people had lots of
questions, which is exactly whathappened with your episode.
Julie (02:50):
Okay, well, great, I am very happy to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Cindy (02:54):
So just so in case we have some listeners that hadn't
heard your episode.
First of all, I will put thelink to that in our show notes,
but I just wanted to share thatwe spoke about some of the
barriers that happen when you'relooking to get a diagnosis or
some services right withneurodivergent children.
Julie (03:10):
That's right.
Cindy (03:11):
Yeah, now what happened is that I got a lot of questions
from parents that werequestioning, you know, if they
have a neurodivergent child andthey truly are struggling with
social and social emotionalskills with their child.
They feel like they don't havea lot of resources, so they were
hoping for us to have thisfollow up conversation so that
they understand their child alittle bit more.
(03:32):
So can we maybe begin aroundthat in terms of, you know, when
we talk about tantrums a lot,but then is this what we're
looking for?
Is this similar in aneurodivergent child?
Or I hear a lot of parents talkabout meltdowns and saying that
they're much longer and it'svery difficult to help the child
regulate.
So what are we looking at interms of the differences?
Julie (03:55):
Yeah.
So a lot of autistic selfadvocates and I'm going to
sometimes maybe use the wordautistic individual and
sometimes person on the spectrumor person with autism.
I do vary my language becausethere are people who have
different preferences.
I just want to sort of say thatat the beginning in terms of
using identity first or personfirst language.
(04:17):
So I try to be inclusive andkind of switch it up.
But there's people who talkabout there are sort of the very
autistic people that I'vespoken with, and autistic self
advocates have described theexperience of a meltdown and
even sometimes what they call anautistic meltdown.
That can be different than atantrum and it's because it's
(04:42):
for different reasons.
So I think the impetus behindan autistic meltdown is more
that the person feelsoverwhelmed, overloaded and
unable to cope in that momentand they need time to regulate
(05:02):
again.
And that's why sometimes thesemeltdowns can be quite long.
They can last a long time.
There can be a lot of bigemotions that are happening and
that kind of meltdown isdifferent from what we consider
a tantrum in most cases, becauseit's not being done to get
(05:23):
something that they wantnecessarily or to protest
against something that theydon't want.
It can just be because thatperson is just completely
overloaded and unable to cope,and so it's important to kind of
distinguish between reallywhat's causing that particular
behavior so that you know whatto do about it.
Cindy (05:45):
So if a parent is listening and has noticed that
their child who is on thespectrum kind of struggles with
that moment of coming back fromschool or daycare where there's
that meltdown period which Ithink many parents see that with
their child because they'reoverwhelmed from their school
day, but now one parent might beable to help their child
(06:05):
regulate, versus the parentwho's having this child just
have this meltdown and not beable to regulate them, how can a
parent, if they point out thatcertain period of the day but
they can't change the fact thatthey're in school, what can they
do to support their child?
Julie (06:20):
Well, there's many different things that can be
done and hopefully what the beststrategies would be would be to
prevent that from happening inthe first place.
So when we talk about behaviormodification or behavior
intervention, we talk aboutthere being proactive strategies
and reactive strategies.
(06:40):
So the proactive strategies arethings that you do before the
behavior occurs to try toprevent it from happening, and
then sometimes maybe you're notdoing those things effectively
or at all, and then the behavioroccurs and then there's
strategies that you might use toreact to that once the behavior
(07:03):
does occur.
So it's always best to try toimplement proactive strategies
to stop that from happening inthe first place, and really one
of the best things to do in thatcase is to build functional
skills to try to make sure thatthe child is able to communicate
their needs and wants earlyenough that they don't reach
(07:25):
that state.
So a lot of children maybe,especially our neurodivergent
children maybe they can't alwayscommunicate very effectively
what they're feeling, and sosometimes they can get a little
bit too far into their emotionsbefore somebody catches on that
(07:49):
they're not doing okay.
So teaching them means ofcommunicating that earlier is
actually one of the beststrategies.
Obviously, that's not somethingyou can do in the moment when
the behavior has occurred.
But it's really important totry to identify what is causing
this behavior and then put inthose proactive strategies that
(08:10):
can help maybe derail a meltdownthat might happen.
But there's lots of otherproactive strategies too that we
can also discuss if you want totalk about.
Cindy (08:23):
So yeah, I guess parents are wondering.
From what I understand, youkind of want to be the detective
right, kind of trying to figureout what's happening, what's
contributing to that.
So if you know that there'ssome sort of we hear a lot about
sensory sensitivities and theseoverloads is this something a
parent can be more mindful of?
What's happening, let's say, inthe car, maybe coming back from
(08:46):
school, rather than blastingmusic to kind of lower it, or
the opposite, depending on whatthe needs of that child are.
Julie (08:51):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We talk about in psychology,about functional behavior
analysis, which sounds like afancy term, but really it's
something that most people doquite naturally, most parents do
quite naturally, but sometimesthey don't do it necessarily in
a systematic way.
What we do as psychologists isto do that very systematically,
(09:12):
and what we do is we take abehavior that we are finding
challenging, that we want to tryto maybe modify, and we track
that behavior over a period oftime.
That helps us determine what iscausing that behavior, what are
the things or the antecedentsthat are happening right before
the behavior occurs, that leadto that behavior happening, and
(09:35):
then also what happens rightafter that behavior.
Are there things that otherpeople are doing, we're doing or
the child is doing, thatactually reinforces that
behavior or sustains thatbehavior?
So those are important things tolook at too what happens before
, what happens after, theantecedents and the consequences
.
And then that allows us tofigure out over a period of time
(09:56):
, when you've tracked it, whatit is that's triggering that
behavior and maybe what'ssustaining it.
Once you do that, once you'veplayed that detective role, then
you can determine whatstrategies might be useful to
help modify that behavior.
But if you don't figure thatout first, you're flying blind.
(10:16):
You could try lots of differentstrategies that won't work
because you're not actuallyhitting the nail on the head as
to what's causing that behavior.
So it's really important to tryto determine that first.
Take the time to figure it out,see what might be causing that
or triggering that, and then youcan start making those changes.
Cindy (10:37):
We hear you mentioned something about the aftermath of
this happening and how werespond to them.
I know that there's a lot oflike parenting advice out there
and they talk about like howco-regulation is very important
and how the way that we kind ofsupport our child in regulating
their emotions makes a bigdifference.
Are we seeing, is this just asimportant with a neurodivergent
(11:00):
child?
And how might that lookdifferently if you're a parent
of a neurodivergent child interms of like that co-regulation
piece?
Julie (11:09):
Yeah, it's absolutely, extremely important for any
person, for any child, to have aperson who's able to help them
regulate and help bring themthrough that situation.
Sometimes a parent's effortsmight do the opposite.
So sometimes parents try tohelp their child regulate, but
(11:30):
what they're doing is actuallyoverstimulating the child even
more.
So it is important to be reallyin tune, as much as you can be,
with your child's cues.
We talk about in behaviormodification the fact that every
behavior is communication.
So your child is always tryingto communicate with you with
these behaviors, and so it'simportant to try to listen to
(11:51):
that and figure out.
What are they trying to tell you, and it can be difficult to do,
but trying to be in tune withoh, this thing seems to work,
you know, or they seem to needthis kind of environment, let's
say, to help them calm down.
The things that they may needmight require you to adapt your
(12:15):
environment a little bit.
So we do talk about things likehaving a quiet corner set up,
sometimes a little tent indoors,filled with blankets and
cushions and other things thatthe child might find soothing,
and so sometimes it's as simpleas just directing them to that
space and the parent maybedoesn't need to do a lot more
(12:36):
beyond that, but certainly oftenneurodivergent children do need
a little bit more help becausethey don't always have the tools
that come as naturally to themto help them cope as other
children start to learn overtime, and so sometimes they need
to be taught that a little bitmore systematically than a
(12:57):
neurotypical child.
Cindy (12:58):
And what we spoke about, the parent and I know that
sometimes as parents, we youknow our children catch us in
these moments.
That might not be our bestmoments and then it's hard for
us to kind of stay cool, Like alot of parents here, like be
calm when your parent and whenyour child has lots of emotions,
but it's so hard in that momentand I know that parents kind of
have the guilt around that yousaid something about.
(13:20):
Like you know, sometimes we'renot really.
We're kind of not making itworse but we're adding to it.
What are some things thatparents can keep in mind, you
know, in terms of like try toavoid doing this or saying this
in those moments, especiallywhen you're struggling with
regulating yourself.
Julie (13:34):
Yeah, that can be very certainly rushed and you're in a
hurry and you're feelingstressed.
It can be difficult to stepback and try to read cool and
calm.
Absolutely, one of the mainthings is to try to avoid that
situation in the first place.
So, you know, I often tellparents make sure you have
plenty of time right, as much asyou can, to get ready in the
(13:58):
morning or pick your child upfrom school or go and get
groceries, trying to plan aheadthose things so that you don't
end up in a situation whereyou're rushed and having to deal
with the behavior you know in astressful moment is right.
But of course it's easy to saythat and very difficult to do in
real life.
Sometimes there is a way tokind of plan your day around.
(14:20):
Okay, this might trigger mychild and therefore you know I
need to be mindful that thismight not be the right time to
go to, you know, get groceriesor something like that, to avoid
times when they might be hungryor tired.
Obviously, if you can't do that, there are things that you can
(14:42):
do to try to remind yourself tostep back.
Sometimes I tell parents becausesometimes parents think I don't
know what to do.
You know and they grasp to tryto find a solution and find
something that they can do toreact in the moment.
And sometimes I tell parentsyou know what.
It's actually okay to just takea moment and breathe a few
(15:05):
times and really try to thinkabout what your reaction should
be before you react.
It's not always necessary tojump in right away.
Sometimes it's okay to let yourchild maybe have a little bit of
that meltdown for a little bitas you think about what might be
the best response.
(15:25):
And it's very hard for parentsbecause we want to get in, we
want to fix it, we want torespond.
But sometimes taking thatminute to just reflect on what
should I be doing here can bevery helpful and take those deep
breaths and try to figure outwhat strategy might work best in
that moment and definitelyhaving a plan in advance.
(15:47):
That's why I talked about theseproactive and reactive
strategies, kind of figuring outwhat it is that might drive
that behavior.
And sometimes you're going todo all the proactive things you
can and the behavior is stillgoing to happen.
But it's important to try toplan in advance what is my
response going to be if it doeshappen?
Cindy (16:04):
And what are some of the?
Julie (16:04):
strategies that I'm going to use when those behaviors
come up.
And then you already know whatyour response is going to be and
then you just need to implementit.
And sometimes the other trickis try to think about your child
as being someone else's child.
Like, take a moment to think.
Sometimes, if you're feelingreally upset, think I'm going to
(16:26):
pretend this is somebody else'schild.
What would I do?
Respond to them, because oftenwe are more patient.
I'm talking with other people'schildren, so sometimes that is
a little trick that works.
I know that I think what wouldI do with my patients that I
treat in this moment instead ofmy own child, and that actually
(16:47):
makes me respond better to it.
Cindy (16:49):
I think that's the key word right.
You mentioned react and thenrespond.
I think that's really importantfor us to highlight that,
because we are quick to react toour kids.
You know they're not listening.
We repeat ourselves and this isany parent we react to their
behavior or to their bigemotions, but when we actually
take that time to respond,there's a very big difference.
(17:09):
There's a pause.
There's maybe we need to be ourfriend as well too right in our
minds.
It could be a little kinder toourselves sometimes or just
remind ourselves that we'retired.
With the today's we had thehour change right and yesterday
and today's been quite adifficult day in my house and
it's like we have to just beaware that behavior will be a
(17:30):
little bit different this weekin our home and I'm trying to be
mindful of that.
But that pause is just.
It could be a split second, butin our mind it's enough for us
to kind of reconnect withourselves and then connect with
our child.
It makes such a huge difference.
I love that you've used thosetwo words.
Julie (17:48):
Yeah, it's very important to remember that.
You don't have to reactimmediately, right, right, if
you have to take a minute, yourchild as long as they're safe,
it's gonna be okay.
You just need to kind of thinkabout what you're gonna do.
And I say that.
But there are times when thechild is not safe, and that does
happen too with ourneurodivergent kids.
(18:10):
Sometimes they are engaging inself-injurious behavior, they're
thinking their heads on things.
So first and foremost thing ismake sure they're safe.
Once you've established theirsafety, then you can take a
minute to think about what youneed to do next.
Cindy (18:25):
I do wanna jump into the behavior part, because that is
what we see externally.
Sometimes, when there aremeltdowns or emotions, that will
kind of show itself in abehavior that could be
challenging for us as parents.
First I just wanna ask onelittle question, because I've
seen this very often, or heardthis, where parents say I heard
this advice online and I appliedit while my child was screaming
(18:47):
.
I told them take a deep breath,remember your meditation or
whatever it was.
But I see that as like theright tool, but at the wrong
time, because at that momentwhen your child is, I picture a
mountain for kids, but justthey're at the top of that
mountain and there's just no waythat we can get to them.
Is this even?
Is this more like, I guess,amplified?
(19:09):
Or is it similar in ND kids?
Julie (19:12):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Definitely it's about teachingthose skills at times when
they're calm.
So I talked about how often thebest proactive strategy is to
teach skills right.
So if a child is unable tocommunicate their needs and
wants, then the best thing to dois to teach them a means of
communication, and it can besomething as simple as a hand
(19:33):
gesture or a picture that theyhold up.
It doesn't have to be talkingor words, it needs to be
something that they can do, andonce they have more skills in
their toolbox, then often thosebehaviors will diminish on their
own.
And some of the skills that weneed to teach are things like
how to relax, how to calmyourself, how to cope in those
(19:53):
moments when you're feelingstressed out, and so often.
What I recommend is sometimesthere are sensory strategies
that parents can do, and so theycan institute little sensory
breaks where they help theirchild perform different sensory
activities on a regular basisthroughout the day or throughout
certain activities that mightbe stressful for them.
(20:15):
So those are things that youcan incorporate ahead of time so
that the child learns how to dothose things.
But also I often give parentslittle relaxation books or
social stories that teach achild how to do those relaxation
strategies like taking deepbreaths and counting to 10 and
squeezing a stress ball orwhatever it might be that they
(20:39):
find soothing.
The time to do that is to readthose books with your child and
practice those strategies intimes when they're calm already.
Cindy (20:49):
Right.
Julie (20:50):
And do that regularly.
So you might do that every dayor every second day and we go
through our little routine.
Maybe it's a nice thing to doat bedtime, if bedtime isn't
already a stressful time, ifthey're happy at all.
So you incorporate those thingsat times when they are calm and
they're available to learn,because nobody is available to
(21:11):
learn anything when they'refeeling stressed out and
emotional and upset Right,myself included.
So that's not the time to tryto teach anything.
So if you catch them whenthey're calm and you can teach
them those strategies, then onceyou start to see the behavior
start to build and a mildewstart to happen, then you can
(21:34):
then sometimes prompt them touse those strategies and you
have a lot more chance of beingsuccessful if you do that when
they're already pre-prepared andthey've pre-learned how to do
those things and you can kind ofsay oh, remember, let's
practice the deep breaths andlet's go to the quiet corner and
let's put on our soothing musicor whatever it might be.
(21:56):
So definitely, definitely.
You're absolutely right thatthe right tools need to be
implemented at the right time inorder for them to be useful.
Cindy (22:07):
So it's sort of at the when you're noticing that ascent
.
I guess if I picture thatmountain right Like they're
ascending and you notice thatthey're starting to show these
visible signs of beingdysregulated or something is
happening with their emotions,that's a good time to kind of
say like, remember those toolsthat we've been practicing right
, not when they're in thosemoments where you just can't
connect with them, and ithappens to all kids too.
Julie (22:30):
yeah, yeah, and I mean I will say that sometimes it can
be hard because sometimes somekids go from zero to 60 very
fast and so there may not betime before you can notice those
signs coming, before they'realready in a fall meltdown.
So that can be tricky.
But that's where trying to takenotice of those times when
(22:53):
those things are likely tohappen and then building in
those calming strategies orthose sensory strategies into
that task or situation beforethe behavior happens is
important, right To just kind oftry to set them up for success
from the beginning yeah, andwhat happens in the situation
(23:14):
where you just explained, whensometimes they might be trying
to harm themselves or harmsomebody around them?
Cindy (23:20):
I've had parents reach out that don't know how to
respond to that, because there'sstill a point where you're
trying to help the childregulate, but there's also
behavioral issue or situation inthat moment where you don't
want them to hurt a sibling orto hurt you or themselves.
How do you balance that andwhat does I guess?
What does the consequence orwhat does discipline look like
for that child in particular?
Julie (23:43):
Yeah, those are probably the trickiest because, obviously
, when a child is potentiallyharming themselves and or others
, that's when parents reallydefinitely can't stop themselves
from intervening and it'simportant, obviously, to keep
the child safe.
(24:03):
Sometimes it can be as simpleas just putting a mattress or a
cushion or something betweentheir head and the floor and
that's all you can do in thatmoment.
Because if they are having sucha big meltdown and I have seen
this where it is dangerous forpeople around them and there's
(24:26):
really nothing else to be doneother than just trying to make
sure that there is cushioningthere so that they don't hurt
themselves.
So sometimes it's really aboutjust doing those quick things to
make sure that they're safe andthen kind of waiting it out,
because sometimes if you try toget in their space and you try
to physically restrain them,that can make it worse, right.
(24:53):
So, and sometimes not, I meanit's tricky because some kids
respond well to what we calldeep pressure, right.
So if you kind of give them abare hug and you put your arms
around them, and sometimes thatkind of pressure can calm them
down, that's where, again, youneed to really pay attention to
your child, to kind of know whatthey're gonna respond to and
(25:15):
what's gonna make it worse.
So sometimes there's nothing tobe done other than to just try
to do something to make surethat they're safe.
And then, if they're bangingtheir head on the floor but
you've gotten a pillow or acushion underneath them and
they're not hurting themselves,sometimes you just kind of wait
until they're done before youcan kind of move on and try to
(25:39):
do anything about it.
And it's unfortunate it's sohard to watch, but sometimes
that can be the best thing to do, because our efforts at those
moments can actually sometimesexacerbate the behavior or make
it prolonged beyond what theywould do if you just sort of
took a step back.
(25:59):
So it's really about justtrying to find those things that
can keep them safe in thatmoment.
Cindy (26:06):
After everything has happened, do you I'm assuming
you have a conversation withyour child and try to explain?
Would it work the same way?
Are you explaining maybeperhaps different ways that they
could go about it when it comesto having their meltdowns, or
are they not in control of itwhen it's happening?
Julie (26:27):
Well, it really depends on the child.
So some children definitelywould not have the verbal
comprehension to be able tounderstand an explanation and to
be able to engage in that kindof conversation.
Some kids would.
So it really depends on whattheir language level is so that
(26:48):
you can determine whether or notthat's something that you can
understand.
And certainly, like I said, themain thing is, I think trying
to explain to them probablyisn't gonna be the most helpful
strategy, because in that momentthat explanation is gonna fly
(27:08):
out of their head right.
So that's where focusing onbuilding skills is really the
thing to do, because often thesemeltdowns happen because a
child is not able to communicatewhat they're needing or they
are getting overwhelmed bycertain stimuli.
And so that's where thoseproactive strategies are so
(27:30):
important, because the more youbuild in skills to help them
learn how to communicate betteror at all what they need, or you
build in that stress release asthe situation is unfolding, the
less and less these things willhappen.
So really I always try to focuson okay, sometimes these
(27:54):
meltdowns will happen andsometimes they will engage in
these behaviors, but the goal isto try to teach them enough
skills so that over time theyjust diminish and you can
prevent them from happening atall, so that you don't have to
worry about how to react to them, and often that does work.
Cindy (28:14):
I'm sure a parent who's listening to this, perhaps their
child is a little bit youngerand if they have a
neurodiversion child they'rewondering like is there an end
to this, or will this kind ofwill the level perhaps decrease
a little bit?
So I'm sure it feels good tokind of hear that we do have to
offer them skills.
It's not that it mightdisappear, from what I'm
understanding, but it will getbetter with time.
Julie (28:38):
In many cases in many cases it will, if the child is
really taught those skills.
And those skills are not easyto teach, right?
I mean, trying to teachcommunication to some kiddos can
be very, very challenging.
Neurodivergent kids, kids onthe spectrum, often have very
(28:59):
difficult time with language.
They have a difficult timeusing gestures as well.
And so trying to teach themmeans to communicate can be
really tricky, and unfortunatelyhere in our context not many
children are offered theopportunity to learn alternative
means of communication.
There are things like what wecall AAC augmentative and
(29:21):
alternative communicationdevices and that's really just
not offered very often in ourprograms here for kids on the
spectrum.
We don't have enough of that,there are not enough experts in
that and it's just not beingdone systematically enough
unfortunately.
And so I have seen many kidswho end up as teenagers and they
(29:45):
still don't have a means tocommunicate and nobody's ever
taught them a way to communicatetheir needs and their wants and
their issues, and so thosebehaviors often will continue.
But I have also seen the flipside, where I have seen kids who
were taught those communicationstrategies and they were able
(30:09):
to communicate better and thosebehaviors did decrease over time
.
And so I really do think thatthat is the most important thing
, but unfortunately it's oftenjust not being offered to
families here I find in ourprograms as much as it should.
Cindy (30:27):
Is it common in the States?
I know that there are lots oflisteners in the US.
It is okay.
Julie (30:35):
Yeah, I think that sometimes the way that the
interventions work they're withtheir insurance system.
Sometimes they have access to awider variety of things.
Certainly here in Quebec, ifyou get services through the
public system, we have a verycookie cutter approach to our
(30:57):
autism intervention For example.
Everybody sort of gets put onthe same list for the same
services and we don't have a lotof variety that's tailored to
the child.
Unfortunately, if you goprivately and certainly in the
US, where there are differentproviders and people's insurance
might be for different types ofthings there are often more
(31:22):
options.
And even in other parts ofCanada there are some provinces
that do allow parents to go outand sort of purchase the
services for their child.
They're kind of given thegovernment kind of gives them
control over the funding andthen they go and they choose the
(31:46):
services that make sense fortheir child, usually hopefully
based on recommendations byprofessionals.
But and I have seen those kindsof systems work extremely well
for kids.
But here we are very much in asituation where there's sort of
a one size fits all approach,unfortunately, yeah, it's
(32:09):
unfortunate.
Cindy (32:09):
you know, when it comes to these services, I wish that
it was kind of more across theboard with what you're saying in
terms of it not being thatcookie cutter approach, because
we know, especially withneurodivergent kids, that they
do need very specific needs andthey're not the same and they're
you know it's, yeah, Okay.
Julie (32:28):
It's a very heterogeneous group and not all children need
ABA, which is what,unfortunately, they're going to
get, if they get services at all, which, unfortunately, is also
a problem.
Cindy (32:45):
Yeah, what can a parent?
Now I guess I have a feelingthat some parents that are
listening to this who don't haveneurodivergent child or a child
who just hasn't been diagnosedyet, but feel like some of the
things that you're mentioningare things that they're seeing
in their home.
So I do want to address thatbefore we move on to like the
last sort of question that dealsaround social skills with kids.
(33:07):
But I do want to.
Maybe we can talk about somesigns that a parent should be,
you know, aware of, because Iknow some parents sometimes ask
of what is the differencebetween a they'll use the term
normal, right, what's normalwhen it comes to tantrums?
But what I like to say is like,what should you be looking out
for in terms of signs that youcould perhaps talk to your
(33:28):
doctor about it, because thetantrum, or big emotion, is more
than what it should bedevelopmentally at that age.
So what should parents belooking out for?
Julie (33:39):
Right?
Well, when it comes to thosekinds of behaviors, there is
obviously variation between kids, right?
So even neurotypical kids willdiffer in how well they regulate
themselves and how long ittakes them to learn those skills
and what kinds of tantrumsthey'll have.
So there is a fair amount ofvariability there already.
(34:02):
I would say the main red flagsaround those kinds of behaviors
would be, first of all, I thinkanytime a child is engaging in
self-injury, that's an importantthing to pay attention to and
to talk to your doctor about.
And neurotypical kids willengage in self-injury sometimes,
too Often, they will do it in away where they kind of
(34:25):
experiment with it a little bit.
They might bang their head onsomething and then look to see
what their parents' reaction is.
Yes, and they will often sortof figure out pretty quickly
that that doesn't feel very goodfor them and they sometimes
won't continue to do it.
Sometimes they will a littlebit if they see a good reaction
(34:48):
and they get a A.
But quite often if we have kidswho are engaging in self-injury
and they're not necessarilychecking in with the parent to
kind of look at that parent'sreaction and they are just sort
of doing it in a way that seemslike they may not have a lot of
control over their behavior.
(35:08):
That, to me, is something thatI would be concerned about and
would talk to the doctor about,because most children aren't
going to purposely harmthemselves or they're not going
to often do it for long if theyare typically developing and
(35:30):
they are looking for a reactionor getting the consequence that
they like.
So that's a flag for me.
I also feel like just the lengthof time.
So a lot of kids will wearthemselves out after 20 minutes,
half an hour maybe, but we hearabout some parents who talk
(35:53):
about their children having itmeltdown.
That can last 45 minutes, anhour, over an hour Once it gets
to be quite long like that.
That is something that I wouldalso want to bring up to my
doctors.
That's really about sort of howlong is it going on for how
much do they seem like they'rereally able to control
(36:14):
themselves?
When you do get involved and youtry to help them calm
themselves and regulate again,how long does that take?
How do they respond to that?
Those are the things I wouldwatch for, but certainly those
are usually not things that arehappening alone.
(36:34):
So quite often there are othersigns that we need to be mindful
of as well.
So if a child is having otherdevelopmental delays and they
are not keeping up with theirpeers in terms of their language
development or their motordevelopment or their social
development, other things likethat, then that would definitely
(36:55):
prompt me to be even moreconcerned.
If I see that there are thosekinds of challenging behaviors,
or we sometimes call thembehaviors that challenge, and as
well there are otherdevelopmental delays, I would
then be sure to talk to mypediatrician about that.
Cindy (37:16):
Okay, thank you.
I wanted to bring that upbecause, as we were talking, I
had a feeling that some parentswill question well, if I'm
seeing this in my home and I'mglad that you also said it's not
always in isolation.
There has to be some other sortof signs that we're seeing.
We've you've mentioned now afew times in terms of the
communication and the socialskills.
I'd love, I'd love, to end ourconversation with this, because
(37:37):
I find that as a society and asparents, we often put a lot of
pressure on our kids to besocial and to develop these
skills.
I hear parents saying you know,when they're 12 month old starts
daycare.
You know, I want them to learnto be social right now, and
there's a lot that goes aroundthat there's a huge importance
on that.
But then we know that in ourdivergent children or kids on
the spectrum, that it's not thepath or this.
(37:58):
You know, the what we expectedto be is not going to look the
same.
How do we support our child whois on the spectrum or
neurodivergent, who might bestruggling with the social
aspect that we expect them to bedeveloping?
You know, we we from a verygood place obviously want them
to have friends and, to you know, support that part of their
(38:20):
development.
How can we do that as parents?
Julie (38:24):
Well, that can be very tricky and I would say that it's
important to just maybe changethe expectations a little bit.
So, for example, many parentswill put their children into a
sport to try to help themsocialize.
So they might put them intosoccer and want them to play in
(38:47):
a soccer team because they think, okay, they're going to be
there amongst a group of kidsand they're going to, you know,
have to interact.
That might be a level of demandthat is just too high, and so I
often tell parents maybe try adifferent activity that doesn't
have that level of demandregarding cooperation with a
(39:08):
group of kids.
You know, group play and thatinteractive play in a group can
be very, very tricky when you'realso, at the same time, trying
to actually learn how tomotorically play a sport.
There's a lot of things goingon and there are a lot of
neurodivergent kids who alsostruggle with motor skills and
(39:31):
coordination, and so that can beeven more challenging.
So I often would recommendthings like maybe think about a
sport that doesn't have the samedemand for interactive play.
So it can be something like amartial arts class where you
know you're in a group of kidsbut you are kind of paying
(39:54):
attention to your instructor andpracticing, doing some of the
movements you know on your ownbut then paired up, maybe
one-on-one right, or a swimmingclass where again you're paying
attention to the instructor andyou're doing things alone or
with the instructor and notnecessarily in some kind of you
(40:16):
know, interactive joint play.
So it's about trying to justadjust those expectations a
little bit.
And we do also know that forkids on the spectrum often just
having one close friend, youknow, can be enough.
That can be protective, thatcan make a big difference.
(40:37):
We don't need to have a giantgroup of friends, but one good
friend is great, you know.
That can be a very protectivething.
And so Definitely it's abouttrying to support them socially,
but not push so hard that itbecomes really stressful, and
(41:00):
pay attention to what it is thatthey want.
Some kids on the spectrum areactually quite motivated to want
to socialize and theydefinitely want to have friends
and they want to play with otherkids.
Some children on the spectrumhave less of a motivation
towards that.
So it's really about figuringout where your child is at and
(41:23):
then figuring out what might bethe right level of socialization
for them and, of course, ifthey really are wanting to go
and make friends, teaching themthose strategies, building those
skills right.
This is how we have aconversation.
This is how we approachsomebody and ask them to play.
This is how we might say helloto someone and give them a
(41:44):
compliment.
There's a lot of these kinds ofskills that we can teach that
are not necessarily coming sonaturally, and all we need to do
is to make it very explicit.
These are the essentials tohaving a conversation and this
is what you need to know, andthose can be taught to kids,
(42:05):
often using social stories, butdefinitely that's what I would
suggest is try to just adjustyour expectations to your child
and where they're at regardingtheir socialization, and then
teach those skills that they aremaybe missing.
Cindy (42:23):
And what I'm hearing also is maybe scaffolding things for
them right, Going to the parkand assuming that they'll go out
and maybe make a friend or playwith somebody might not be the
situation or, like you said,they might be motivated to go
but then not approach it thesame way that we would expect
them to.
So I guess breaking it down forthem into the baby steps right,
(42:44):
so that they know exactlywhat's step one or two and how
to go about it.
Julie (42:49):
Yeah, and it's also about being mindful of the fact that
some environments are going tobe more challenging for them to
socialize.
So going to the park, forexample, sometimes that can be
overwhelming because there are alot of kids, there is a lot of
activity and there's a lot ofnoise, and so sometimes that's
not the ideal scenario for themto be able to go and try to
practice those social skills andtry to make a friend or play
(43:12):
with another child.
Sometimes it can be better ifyou arrange a play date and you
have one child over to your ownhome where your child is
comfortable and they have theirthings around them, and you keep
it very short and you plan anactivity so that we know exactly
what we're going to be doing.
We're going to be doing theseparticular steps.
It's not sort of vague in termsof what they're expected to do.
(43:37):
We plan an activity, we do thesteps.
We might have a visual scheduleshowing us first we're going to
do this, then this, then this,and when the activity is over
the friend goes, you know, andso it's a nice little packaged
time for them where they reallyknow what to expect for them to
be able to practice those skillsthat can make it easier.
Sometimes having unstructuredplay is just really, really
(43:59):
challenging.
But if you can structure it forthem and say, okay, we're going
to do this little activity,that can really help, because
then they kind of know this iswhat I got to do.
Cindy (44:10):
Got it.
Thank you for sharing that,because I think it's really
important for parents to hearthis and understand what that
might look like in their home,because I don't think, for the
emails that I get, I don't thinkeverybody gets services or gets
this kind of guidance when itcomes to support.
You know people emailing mefrom different countries as well
that just don't even have theirchild hasn't even seen a doctor
.
They see the signs and symptoms, but there's no diagnosis.
(44:32):
So I think it's important forthem to hear all this to be able
to support their child in a waythat helps them with their
development too.
Julie (44:39):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think the only other thing I
would say is and I think I'vesaid this a few times, but
really, you know anything I'msaying today strategies and
advice.
You know, it really does depend, though, on the child.
And so I'm trying to kind ofgive some general ideas, but at
(45:00):
the same time, it is soimportant for people to talk to
a professional clinician, ateacher, somebody who can offer
strategies tailored to thatparticular child, because every
child is so different and theirneeds are so different, and it's
really about meeting them wherethey're at and trying to build
(45:21):
on the skills that they have andthat's not the same for
everybody.
And so, you know, I do want tojust sort of, you know, give
that little caveat that some ofthe things that I said today you
know parents might go and tryand that might not be the right
thing for their child, right?
So it's important that theyreally do try to, as much as
(45:42):
possible, seek out someone thatcan give them those very
individualized strategies.
Cindy (45:49):
Are there any resources that you know, any websites that
you recommend or a book thatyou might think of?
I know I'm putting on the spot,but anything that you.
If not, it's okay, we can addit to the show notes if you
can't remember of any, butsomething that can help a parent
, you know, get started with thefirst steps and how to support
their child.
Julie (46:07):
Well, like I said, I tend to focus a lot on building
skills, and so I definitelyalways recommend programs that
are geared towards, often,communication, because that is
usually the biggest challengeamongst this particular group of
kids.
So programs like the Hannonprogram, more Than Words, those
(46:28):
kinds of books and More ThanWords also has, I think you know
, a video that parents can watchthings like that can be really
useful to help parents learn howto intervene with their kids.
So in my lab we have a researchstudy that is running an
intervention trial using thecaregiver skills training, which
(46:53):
is a parent mediatedintervention that was developed
by the WHO and that particularprogram was designed to be able
to be adapted to many differentcountries and contexts and it's
available in lots of places andin lots of languages.
(47:15):
And the whole goal of thatprogram is exactly that to kind
of teach parents how to workwith their kids through play and
through home routines thatthey're already doing, to just
try to stimulate theircommunication skills, stimulate
their play skills, stimulatetheir social skills.
So that kind of program I thinkis super interesting for
(47:39):
parents to look up as well.
And the good thing about thisCST, what we call the caregiver
skills training program, is thatthere is now an electronic
module for it.
So even though it is somethingthat has started to be offered
more and more byinterventionists in different
places, there is this electronicversion that parents can sort
(48:01):
of self guide themselves throughso that they can do the program
and learn some of these skillson their own online to be able
to know kind of how to just howto reach their kids and the
things that they're alreadydoing at home in a way that
stimulates that development.
And really, like I said, thoseare the main things is building
(48:21):
those skills and trying to getin there and the functional
skills to help prevent thosebehaviors that can be
challenging.
Cindy (48:30):
Perfect.
Can we add that link to theshow notes so that parents could
?
Is there a link that they couldjoin or to learn more about
that study?
Julie (48:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
The program, yes, Perfect.
Cindy (48:40):
We will add everything.
I know the parents arelistening saying I need that
link, so we will add everythingand the resources that Julie
mentioned.
Thank you, julie, for coming onfor a second time and for
having conversations with me.
I know this will have like morefollow up questions, but I
truly appreciate your help andyou coming back.
Julie (48:58):
Thank you again for having me back, and I was so
happy that there was actuallyinterest in demand for me to
come back, so I feel veryhonored that I was invited.
So thank you, thank you.
Cindy (49:13):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, everyone, and pleasedon't forget to rate the
podcast and leave a review andfollow us on Instagram at
curious underscore neuron.
Thank you.
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