The power of connection in addiction treatment with Travis Goodman

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In this episode of the Curious Neuron podcast, I chat with therapist Travis Goodman about the rising concerns around addiction. We explore the importance of compassionate curiosity when approaching conversations about addiction, the role of the nervous system in addiction, and the necessity of managing personal emotions when dealing with loved ones struggling with addiction. 

The conversation emphasizes the need for connection and vulnerability as antidotes to shame and isolation often associated with addiction. In this conversation, Travis Goodman, LMFT, discusses the critical role of connection in healing from addiction, particularly for men. He emphasizes the importance of building support systems, whether through therapy or community, and the need for safe spaces where men can express vulnerability and accountability. 

The discussion also covers navigating denial in loved ones struggling with addiction, setting boundaries, and the significance of changing the narrative around addiction to foster understanding and empathy.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/FDUyGUYBH5Q

Resources:

1. Follow Travis on Instagram @integratedmanproject
2. Join the next cohort of the Men's Collective with Travis here
3. Private coaching or counselling with Travis here
4. In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction

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I'm a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
PhD in neuroscience.
My goal with Curious Neuronalthough it has shifted so many
times over the years is truly tosupport parental well-being.
I think that when we look at achild's healthcare and
everything that we do to supportthat child and make sure that

(00:22):
they have a really bright future, especially when it comes
around mental health andemotional well-being, we cannot
ignore parental well-being, andthat's why, through Curious
Neuron, I want to make sure thatI bring the right people here
on the podcast to support you inunderstanding your triggers,
managing your stress,understanding and coping with
your emotions, and today we aregoing to dig a little bit deeper

(00:43):
into the emotional part andlook at mental health.
We're going to be talking aboutaddiction, and I think it's
important for us to do that,because I've been receiving a
lot of emails and I've beenseeing a lot of posts online.
I follow these Facebook momgroups and parenting groups and
many people have beenquestioning addiction and how to
support their partner or how torecognize it in themselves, and

(01:05):
so I wanted to make sure that Ibrought the right person to do
that.
My guest today is Travis, andhe's been on the podcast many
times before.
I needed to bring him into theconversation because, although
the conversation isn'tspecifically about dads and men,
when we talk about addiction,there is a trend towards men and
dads, and so there will be abit of a focus around that.

(01:27):
But, whether or not you are amom or a dad, if you have been
noticing some behaviors inyourself or in your partner and
you're questioning how do Iapproach this or what are the
next steps for myself, this isan amazing conversation and, as
always, everything we do isgrounded in science, and I'm
reading an article that's rightin front of me now.
I will have the link in theshow notes for you.

(01:49):
It's an editorial and it'scalled Human Connection as a
Treatment for Addiction.
I'm just going to read you thefirst paragraph, because this
was kind of the seed, thearticle that I saw.
That kind of led me toquestioning what is support or
what is the role of support insomebody's treatment for
addiction.
So it says the aim of thisresearch topic human connection
as a treatment for addiction isto bring together scholars from

(02:12):
various fields to explore thequestion of whether
intentionally increasingmeaningful, caring interaction
between people may reducesubstance and or non-substance
related addictive behaviors.
Previous research supports therole of social connection that
it may play in the initiationand maintenance of addiction, in

(02:34):
both animals and humans, and sothe reason why I really wanted
to focus on this is based onthis study and many others,
including the conversation I'vehad with Dr Bruce Perry, many
months ago now, or years ago,that just keeps reminding us.
Whether we've been throughtrauma, whether we are suffering
with, you know, and strugglingwith our mental health right now

(02:55):
, the power of connection cannotbe ignored, and it might feel
isolating in the moment, and youmight feel like you are the
only one going through this.
If you cannot find one or twopeople that you truly trust that
you can bring into this withyou to support you, the stronger
that little support group is,the better the treatment and the

(03:18):
outcome is for you.
But if you can't, travis has anamazing, amazing collective
that he's building a group, thathe's putting together a cohort.
That he's already done beforeand he's doing it again.
I encourage you to click on thelink, just explore it, just
reach out to him and start theconversation in terms of just

(03:39):
not feeling alone anymore.
That is an important part ofour mental health, and, as
Travis is going to talk aboutall of this, he talks about the
story and the why behind all ofit, so I don't want to keep you
waiting.
This was such an importantconversation.
First, I'd like to thank theTannenbaum Open Science
Institute as well as theMcConnell Foundation for
supporting the Curious Neuronpodcast.

(03:59):
Both of these organizationsbelieve in the importance of
science, as we do here atCurious Neuron, and so I'm
grateful to have twoorganizations that are helping
me continue the podcast.
Also, without you, this podcastwould not be possible.
These two organizations look atmetrics every single year, and
so if you haven't done so yetand you've been listening to the
podcast for more than threeweeks, I'm giving you three

(04:22):
weeks.
Please take a moment to ratethe podcast and leave a review,
and you can send me an email atinfo at CuriousNeuroncom.
Let me know that you left arating and review and I will
send you Meltdown Mountain foryour kids.
It's this visual that they canuse, and it means so much to me
that you actually took the timeto review the podcast and even

(04:42):
just rate it.
It just I will send you thatfor free.
But if you haven't done so, Iknow that it's a bother to click
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take is going to allow thispodcast to continue.
And if you can share it onsocial media, if this episode is
something that you also havebeen hearing a lot about, share
this episode across social mediaplatforms.

(05:04):
Send it to work and tell them.
Put this in the next newsletter.
Addiction is really importantand here's a conversation that
we can all have as a team, andso help us spread the word
around the Curious Neuronpodcast and the work that we are
doing to support parentalwellbeing.
And, if you haven't noticed yet,if you click the link for the
Reflective Parent Club, that isthe Curious Neuron program that

(05:26):
we have.
It used to be a membership.
I have shut that down.
It's no longer a membership, itis a three our kids, where they
come in and we talk aboutemotions with them.
There are activities for yourkids that I create.

(05:51):
There are reflection promptsfor you.
There's just a lot inside thisprogram, but it's literally
three months of you taking thetime to reflect and think about
things that are triggering youthings that are bothering you,
where you're getting stuck, andafter these three months and the
program and the courses thatyou take within this, you will
notice a difference in how youperceive stress and how you

(06:12):
manage interactions with otheradults around you.
I'm saying this because theparents that are part of this
have noticed these differences.
We are no longer just acceptingpeople to come into the
membership sorry, the clubanymore.
You have to book a meeting withme, and I want to make sure
that this is a the right fit foryou, because there are weekly
meetings and, depending on whereyou are in the world, maybe the

(06:35):
timing is off.
So click the link below in theshow notes.
Even if you just want to chatwith me, I'm okay with that,
let's chat.
These are 15 20 minute minutecalls just to see where you are
in your parenting journey.
Book yourself a meeting andlet's see if the Reflective
Parent Club, this three monthprogram, is a good fit for you.
All right, so, as I said, travishas been on the podcast before.

(06:57):
Travis is a licensed marriageand family therapist and a a
mind-body coach.
He has been working for over 10years and has worked with over
a thousand clients, and now heis also the co-founder of the
Integrated man Project, soplease enjoy my conversation
with Travis Goodman.

(07:17):
Hi everyone, and welcome backto the Curious Drown Podcast.
My name is Cindy, I am yourhost and, as promised, I'm here
with Travis.
Travis, welcome to.
I don't know, I don't know howmany times now, and that's a
good thing, because you've beenhere a few times, and so I'm
glad that you're back with usagain today.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, I'm stoked to be back on and I think, third, I
don't know, I literally don'tknow.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
I think it's third, no, maybe even maybe fourth.
Maybe, but I mean, it's a goodsign.
It means I keep asking you tocome back because we love you
here, so it's okay yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
And I'm glad you reached out.
I was like, oh, Sydney, becauseit's actually it's a double dip
, I get to be on the podcast andcatch up because it's been a
while.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
I know, which we did right before we had to.
You know, I do have so muchrespect for your work and the
knowledge and stuff that you putout for us, and I would say
that it's around since Octoberthat I started noticing an
uptrend in posts on Facebook,where I follow a lot of mom
groups and parenting groups andpeople questioning their own

(08:15):
addiction.
They were questioning if theyprobably had an addiction.
They were questioningaddictions of their partners and
what to do when they found outabout something.
And then I was also receivingquestions myself, and so I
reached out to you recently andI do think that it's something
we need to talk about, becauseperhaps out there in the Cures
Neuron community, there is aparent who has found out that

(08:38):
something is going on in theirhome or with their partner, or
maybe this is a partner.
Somebody who's listening tothis has realized that there
might be some issues, and so I'mwondering first, is this
something you've noticed?
Is it something somebody hadtold me, that it's very common
around the holidays, mentalhealth issues and addictions to
go up.
Is this true?

(08:58):
And then, is there more goingon now?

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, I mean there's definitely, I think, stats that
would and you could just lookthis up those that are listening
but there's definitely statsthat would tend to lean toward a
rise in.
And you know, we'll use the termaddiction loosely here, more of
a broad term.
I think most people arethinking you know classics,
alcohol, drugs as the classic,you know typical addictions, but

(09:23):
there's so many other types ofaddictions that as we begin to
expand you can see how we canbegin to over rely on really
means of distraction to helpourselves kind of navigate and
get through life, especially inthe holidays, since holidays
tend to have increase in stress,right, increase in expectations
and, you know, financial stressto family stress, to I mean a

(09:44):
whole bunch of and a lot ofpeople have a lot of stuff going
on a lot of stressors, andoften you hear people talking
about more of the difficultiesaround the holidays rather than
kind of the joys and connectionsI mean I think, those are there
, but it's more of like oh mygosh, I gotta see this and deal
with this and that and familymembers you have to get with.
You know it's hard, yeah it ishard, and so I think there's

(10:05):
definitely an increase for sure,either anecdotally that I've
heard just around, but alsothere's definitely some
statistics that would back upthat claim of an increase in use
.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
So if somebody is listening to this and has a
ninkling of you know, an ideathat maybe something's happening
in their, in their home, withtheir partner even, maybe even
with a teenager, right, butnoticing patterns, what are the
first steps when it comes tohaving a conversation with
someone?
And, like you said before, evenjust using the word addiction?
Loosely right, because if yougo full force with the first

(10:38):
conversation, I'm assumingthere's pushback.
So how do you begin thisconversation?

Speaker 2 (10:42):
I mean a few things that I would share, and from you
know, not only my clinicalbackground as a trained
therapist, licensed marriagefamily therapist, practicing for
10 years in the state ofCalifornia, along with some
training I've done over the pastfew years to the Polyvagal
Institute treating trauma andaddiction from a polyvagal lens
and I'll speak more about thatin a minute.

(11:03):
Um, about kind of what that is.
Um, but essentially, if if youhave an inkling of an addiction
going on with a family member ormaybe even yourself is, I think
, first and foremost, there's somuch stigma, uh, a lot of
negative and shame around anaddiction, especially like when
we think alcohol and drugs, pornaddiction, things like that,

(11:25):
and I think to some degree it'sbeen shaped by the medical
system and how we used to viewaddiction as primarily like a
brain disease right the braindisease model, which is a
particular model of addiction.
seeing essentially the longstory short of is the brain's
broken, right, you have a brokenbrain, you know essentially, or
you have this genetic componentthat you, you know, you're kind

(11:46):
of screwed and I'm definitelyparaphrasing.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
But I get it yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
You get it and those that are listening.
Please, you can look up what'sthe brain disease model and you
can read about it and I thinkbecause of that there's come a
lot of shame weight to it aswell as like kind of a stuckness
because, like, what do I do?
And now there's been a lot ofwe all know of aa and na and I
think for a lot of people that'shelped thousands of people to
get support.

(12:10):
But even within the modelitself, I think there's some
degree of um, I'm, I'm, I'm notgonna get too in the thick,
thick, uh, too thick in theweeds of the 12-step program,
because I think there's a lot ofgood from 12-step.
I think it doesn't need anupdate.
Personally and this is mypersonal preference and opinion
but I think in the model itselfis like you essentially are
broken, right that you you're,you know, powerless, and I think

(12:32):
there's some power by the way,of admitting that.
But coming in that I'm alwaysjust kind of addict, like once
an actor is an addict, I have abroken brain.
I think this problematic ratherthan I think a more holistic
lens is.
We need to one get away fromthe shame messaging and kind of
approach it with morecompassionate curiosity.
I think the biggest thing ispeople that are struggling with
some level of addiction have somuch shame and fear around,

(12:53):
being found out, about beingknown, and are afraid of
rejection, afraid of being hurt,afraid of being isolated,
afraid of any number of things.
And so I think the first thingis if you're yourself or might
have inkling is starting withcompassionate curiosity of
trying to understand not so muchthe addiction itself of like

(13:14):
you know, um, you're drinkingyour, you have your problem, but
why?
What's the why behind it?
What led this person to usingsomething?
What must be going in theirlife as to what this substance
and I'm using that looselysubstance is doing for them?
What's the benefit?
And if we approach it from acompassionate curiosity lens, we
begin to open the door awayfrom shame and distancing and

(13:35):
isolation and we're reallyincreasing really the need for
most people's connection, and DrGabor Montes talked a lot about
that.
Like the opposite of addictionis connection.
He's done a lot of work andhe's Canadian as well.
I believe he's Canadian, drGabor.
Montes so there you go, so he'sgot a great book.
I think in the realm of hungryghosts it's a thick read, but a

(13:58):
great book.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
I haven't read that one.
I'm going to write it down.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I think it's in the realm of hungry ghosts and
I'll get back to you on that,but I'm pretty sure that's a
great book on addiction thick,thick book.
but as most of his books are um,but compassionate curiosity is
the way to start and I think andthat's like anything, it's the
same thing with this wholepodcast is like a lot of us with
, as parents, reaching our kids.
It's like we're approachingyour kids with compassionate
curiosity, versus judgment andtrying to adhere to rules and

(14:28):
expecting obedience in all times.
No, but compassionate curiosityopens the door to better
understand what led my child toact out quote unquote or have a
tantrum or not listen orwhatever.
Same thing with those thatmight be struggling with some
level of addiction.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
I love that you've approached it this way, because
those are the values of CuriousNeuron, and so I think it
applies for whether we're havingthis conversation with our kids
or our partner.
And you're right about theshame, and I think that the
questions or the people I'vespoken with, or the questions
I've received it's almost likethey're saying what's wrong with
me.
And then I do think that when welook at it as the sort of

(15:06):
lifelong sentence of, like I aman addict and so I am broken,
and the way that you've said it,it really reminds us that we
have to kind of shift that away,because feeling that way is
very heavy and so if we can atleast approach it in a way of
trying to get to the why, and Ithink, as a reminder to everyone
who's listening, that firstconversation might not lead to
that answer right, like it mighttake a lot of these

(15:28):
conversations.
What would be difficult, Iimagine, is, as you are trying
to have these conversations andmaybe if you are trying to do it
from a very compassionate place, that you're getting pushback
because of the stigma around itand the shame.
What if you're being lied toand you could tell right?
What if there are certainthings that are happening in the

(15:49):
home, if they are drinking, ifthere are drugs involved, even
if there's an addiction to aphone or a gambling problem,
right, it could lead to verysevere consequences within the
family.
And so at what point do youpush a little bit harder or say
I've had enough?
How does it work in terms ofthat sort of place?

Speaker 2 (16:11):
And that's a great question, and the classic answer
I would give is it depends.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
I get it yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
I wish there was a one size fits all for this and
this would be very delicate andI think if I'm focusing on the
person who's struggling with theaddiction, whatever that might
be phone addiction, alcohol,drugs, pornography, gambling you
know there's a lot of types ofthings we could use food right.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Work right.
People can overwork.
Yeah is there's a story, andthe better we understand the
narrative as to how the persongot there, the better is we're
going to be able to kind ofoffer support and empathy and
compassion.
At the same time, the caveat isdependent upon the person who
might be struggling.
There could also and often isvery real, negative, painful

(17:02):
impact it could be having on thefamily now, and so there could
be tension there, there could bea lot of betrayal and hurt, and
so there's a lot of layers tothis.
Um one, if you're the personthat's being somehow harmed or
having a negative impact becauseof your spouse, partner spouses
or child's use of addiction, oryou're themselves, it's like

(17:24):
there are layers andunderstanding the story is like
I mean, this is what I do as aclinician or coach is I have to
know the story.
It's not just out of the blue.
They're all of a sudden stuckin the throes of addiction.
It never starts that way.
I've never heard anyone in theresearch would show this.
They're like, hey, one day Ijust have an addiction problem
to whatever out of the bluewould show this.
Like hey, one day I just havean addiction problem to whatever

(17:45):
out of the blue, everything'sfine, I have a great life, and
boom and throws a bit ofaddiction.
No, there's a narrative andthere's often layers and it goes
way, often way back to earlychildhood or adolescence or
young adulthood, where somethingor some things begin to happen
in someone's life and this iskind of from a polyvagal model
to kind of kind of begin tounderstand what polyvagal theory
is really.
Polyvagal theory isunderstanding the nervous system

(18:05):
, right, Poly is many right andvagal, ie vagus.
The polyvagus, right, the vagusnerve is essentially what
regulates your nervous systemfight, flight, freeze, shutdown,
right, and also our calm stateof parasympathetic.
And so this vagus nerve, if youlook at it from the polyvagal
perspective, addiction reallycan be understood as an adaptive

(18:30):
coping mechanism that comesfrom the nervous system's
response to lack of safety orunresolved stress.
So if you think addiction interms of that lens, that it's
really the nervous system's job,which is often subconscious,
trying to navigate a lack ofsafety or unresolved stress, you
begin to see addiction issuesas adaptive, meaning it's trying
, it's the, it's rooted in thebody's attempt to try to

(18:52):
self-regulate or escape beingoverwhelmed or dysregulated.
And so when you see it that way, you could understand why
someone might be using, why theymight be going to this and also
maybe, once you understandtheir whole story, you might
begin to see when it began andthen how it began to manifest
even more and be used more byother experiences, and also you

(19:16):
know whether you're the personwho's impacted by it or the
person using.
Is like it's going to giveperspective for both parties,
because it's more than just abrain disease, more than just
they're broken.
It's like there's a reason,it's adaptive, our body does its
best to survive.
Now, again, the other side is itcan be very problematic.
So it's often these twonarratives that are happening at
the same time One, the veryreal impact it's having on the

(19:39):
individual or the family, aswell as this kind of story, this
narrative that's been unfolding, and we can't really separate
the two.
We need to understand both.
I think what happens is oftenwe focus on the damage being
done now, because we're feelingit now.
We're feeling the pain now,which is very real and for some
families very like hey,someone's addiction is probably

(19:59):
so bad they lost their job andthey can't afford now the whole
family.
So it could be very, very real.
But if we separate thenarrative, then in a way, we
don't understand the humanbehind it.
Right, and if we just only lookat the narrative and don't look
at the real impact, then againwe're problematic because we're
saying, okay, I understand thestory, empathy, but keep going

(20:20):
versus what's really going on,because what's really needing is
the person needs other tools orawareness, understanding of
connection to more effectivelyregulate their state of
dysregulation.
And again, the whole idea youtalk about with like emotions
we've been on before is like,hey, when the brain's in
dysregulated state, we need tohelp the brain get to a state of
calm, or calm enough to teach.

(20:42):
Right, as a parent, a parent,right, if we try to parent my
kid or discipline my kid in thethroes of a tangent of emotional
overwhelm and dysregulation,right, it's not going to go very
well.
Right, we could, we could throwthe book at them, we could be
right, yeah, but it's not goingto, it's not going to sink in or
really be that effective.
If anything, it might even leadthem to more dysregulation.
And the same applies for thosethat are struggling with
addiction.

(21:03):
Is that we can be right, but ifwe don't understand the why
behind it, if anything, it mightcause more shame and pain and
I'm oh, sorry.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
I'm assuming that's also the hard part, because, if
I use the example that you justsaid, as a parent, when your
child is dysregulated, odds areyou are as well, because
something has happened andyou're about to lose it, and so
you're.
You are trying really hard andI always tell the parent start
with yourself first, right, likefind a way to regulate yourself
, would you say.
The same thing applies to apartner, let's say, who just

(21:33):
caught a partner who you knowhas gambled all the money away.
Or they find out that they'vebeen using drugs and that's why
they're not home and that whythey.
whatever it is right, somethingvery serious right do you start
with yourself, because at thatmoment you will attack, you will
label, you will name, you willyou know.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Do you step away and say not today, like let's, let's
sit with this yeah, yeah, andagain, that's such a hard that's
, that's a hard thing to answerwith one, with one answer again,
because there's the very real,you know, to keep it simple
betrayal that the individual isdealing with, and so it's going
to hurt and, depending upon thatperson's story of, have they

(22:13):
been betrayed before?
Has there been a history therewith this partner, other
partners, family, and so there'sgoing to be their own narrative
of a sense of betrayal or beinglied to which is going to cause
a rift, lack of trust.
So there's going to be thisshock and so we're going to want
to like either that personmight even shut down, like come

(22:34):
out, like they might feeloverwhelmed and be in shock, or
they'll fight because they'relike what the heck?
and go in or cause a lot ofanxiety again going to the
nervous system.
Same thing.
The individual is going througha state of dysregulation
themselves fight, flight, freeze, and so if you're finding out,
I mean one of the yeah, a reallyunproductive thing would be to

(22:55):
go in in the throes of yourdysregulated state because it's
gonna you're most likely they'regonna cause any more
dysregulating.
Get stuck in shame.
Then you guys are just gonnacycle.
Now I understand why we do thatbecause we're afraid and that
whole fight flight thing kicksin, but we want to take a step
back as best.
We can know that we're, we havethis hurt.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
And also, how do I?

Speaker 2 (23:13):
approach it as best I can in a more grounded state,
which is not an easy thing to dobecause you're feeling this
pain and so again, just likewith kids, is as our.
We got to do our best to kindof stay within somewhat of a
window that we can be somewhatgrounded, still feeling the pain
and the distress and the hurt,but not dysregulated ourselves,
because that it just is notgoing to be productive.

(23:34):
I guarantee you it won't be, Nowit's not to say we were not
going to have emotion.
You're going to have feelingsabout it You're going to have
emotions about it.
Don't suppress, yeah, don'tsuppress, yeah, don't suppress.
But we want to be in a statewhere we're at least like we
have a footing on solid ground,that we can speak about our
emotions rather than being ruledby our emotional states or our
thoughts in the moment, andthat's not always easy thing to

(23:55):
do, and so you might need to doa little bit more work on your
own, like take some breaths,take a pause, write stuff down,
talk to a friend, like somethingwhere you're kind of able to
get some of this release firstand then leading up to a
conversation, because the goal,of course, would be to like, how
do we navigate this and healRight?
I mean, ideally the goal wouldbe hey, what the heck's going on
with my partner or my kid?
I love them, I want the bestfor them.

(24:16):
Wow, this really shocked me.
It really hurts.
I can't.
You know, I have my ownquestions, but I ultimately love
and care for this person.
So we're going to have toprobably heal this rift somehow
and hopefully, if at all and Iknow that's not always the case
for everybody, depending on thestory at this and deal with the
betrayal and be able to be rawlike, hey, this did hurt and how
do we heal this and repair, aswell as how do I offer support,

(24:40):
if at all, and get the careneeded for my loved one?
And so it's this duality thingwhich is really.
It's a tension in a way thatyou have to live with, and
that's, if I'm honest, a hardthing to do.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
It's not easy, and I'm really happy that you
brought up the sort of aspect ofthe person who finds out right,
Not the person who has theaddiction, because I can't even
imagine in that situation thebetrayal that you feel.
And if you have kids and maybenow you understand certain
things and it wasn't clear toyou before.
Um, but now you're alsothinking there's kids in this
story, right, it's?
not just you and I anymore.

(25:10):
And and now, how do we dealwith this?
Depending on what it is, um,you know, and and even just uh,
you know, maybe I'm thinkingabout more serious things but
even just the phone addictionwhere the couple has
disconnected and I I had, youknow, I I've heard of this
before where it's like a yearpasses and two years pass and
then you're like, hey, wehaven't really connected, I
don't know who you are anymore,and now it's too late, right?

(25:31):
And so I think it's reallyimportant for us to like, like
you said, it could be food, itcould be anything serious or
less serious that still has asimilar impact in terms of
addiction.
So I get that.
You said something that wasinteresting to me.
You brought up talk to a friend, I think, about arguments I do
have with my husband and youknow we have our go-to person,

(25:52):
you know, and I'll call myfriend and be like okay, so this
happened and this is what Isaid, and she's like, yeah, you
were wrong, and I don't listento it when he says it, but then
when she says, I'm like, oh,you're right, I need to go back.
It's like my, my journal that Italked to like out loud you know
, and it really um, it's thisone person that we, that I trust

(26:12):
, that I couldn't go to and whowill put me in my place, Like if
.
I need to be put in my place andI can come back, and you know
we'll repair that.
But, um, when it comes to thissituation, I would assume that
it would feel good for theperson that finds out to kind of
have an outlet, but then thatshame and guilt that you spoke
about at the beginning, I mean,I would feel that this is
something you don't want toshare with anybody, but that
would make it make it evenheavier, because you're

(26:32):
pretending everything's okayWhile it feels like your whole
world is shattered right, like,how do you, what can somebody do
?
Do you recommend that we dospeak to somebody?
I don't know?
I don't even know what thequestion is right, because I'm
picturing myself in thatsituation and I can't imagine
what I would do.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think again with the amount of shame
around it, because often we'remasking and pretending things
are fine and it's hidden, right,right, and so there's a again
really tremendous amount ofshame when it's found out or
being known and often the feararound that is being rejected,
being disconnected, being cutoff.
Um, if people knew this aboutme, right, they wouldn't love me

(27:13):
, they would they would want.
And so all these, thesenarratives again around shame is
such a strong emotional, mental, physiological combatant, so to
speak, that will keep usisolated.
That's really, I think, shame'spurpose, and I'm kind of
quoting from other authors onthis that shame's purpose is
essentially to isolate anddestroy, is to keep us

(27:36):
disconnected.
And, oddly enough, the oppositeof addiction again to quote
Gabor Monte is connection, likewe need connection, and it's
only going to come through.
And even you know Brene Brown'stalked about this, right that
opposite of shame same thing isis is being known, is is
connection, is vulnerability andauthenticity.
Now, it's really hard, and ifI'm speaking to men, that's even

(27:57):
really big, especially aroundwhat it means to be a man and
being masculine and strong isgetting having things figured
out yourself and not needingsupport.
And again, I'm kind of speakingto the trope of, like unhealthy
masculinity is that this ideaof like you don't need support,
do it on your own.
If you need support, you'reweak, right.
And so I think that's anotherlayer for a lot of men too is
not only the shame of beingknown, but also what I'm From

(28:27):
the polyvagal perspective.
The nervous system would say andthis goes to probably a lot of
the work you've spoken on toowith the brain is that being
known like nervous system tonervous system creates
co-regulation which can createsoothing to the nervous system
of being known and accepted andstill held up and accountable,
which can be hard, which can behard, but there's this

(28:52):
connection piece which can helpcalm the nervous system down,
like, hey, I'm not rejectedbecause the fear I'm saying I'm
in this state of dysregulation,if I'm known, then I'm going to
get rejected, so I'm just goingto shut down and numb out versus
press into safe connection,right, obviously, again, I think
we want to be choosy with whowe open with.
Like you said, we have a friendor two that we might be able to
do that with.
Like you said, we have a friendor two that we might be able to

(29:12):
do that with and that personcreates this kind of open, safe
enough that I can show up rawand authentic.
Be accepted, known andchallenged is really important,
and I know that for a lot ofguys.
I would say they don't have thatkind of relationship with men.
I would say a lot of men thatI've worked with they don't talk
to anybody.

(29:32):
I don't have a guy I could talkto.
I don't talk to my spouse aboutthis, I don't you know, I don't
have guy friends that couldtalk about this.
A lot of men struggle inisolation, which then ramps up
addiction issues even morebecause there's no one to talk
to.
And the more they getdisconnected, the more sucked in
they get to kind of being morealone and isolated and pulled
away.
Because that shame.
The fear grows, right, it likegets stronger the more they kind

(29:54):
of believe and live thatnarrative and don't reach out to
people of being known.
It becomes harder, right,because now it's I got to share
more, I got to open it more, andthat is overwhelming to me.
So I'm just going to check outeven more right.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
So then, how, thinking about that, and if
there are dads out there thatare listening, or moms that have
are trying to support theirpartner right now in an
addiction how knowing thatconnection is so important, what
are the baby steps to that?
You know and I say baby stepsbecause I know it's not going to
be about reaching out to afriend tomorrow, right.
What does that scaffolding orthat build up to trying to make

(30:31):
a connection look like if youhaven't been doing that for so
long?

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, and and it.
I guess it depends on I'm sorry, it depends on the the level of
how strong is this?
You know what point?
What kind of support are theyneeding?
Um, like mild support to prettysignificant, like a lot of
support, I think, if you're thespouse of one or the parent of

(30:55):
one and this is again the hardthing because you're dealing
with a very close hurt, again,that does need to be
acknowledged and healed if itcan, but also letting that
person know that they are lovedand cared for, that we want the
best for them.
At the same time as a personcontinues to go into addiction,

(31:16):
here's the very real impact it'shaving, and so being honest
about that, but also knowingthat as a spouse or parent, you
probably aren't enough to offersupport for the person, that
they will often need moresupport outside of you, that
they will often need moresupport outside of you, Like
having you as supportive personwill be helpful, but also you
got to do some healing work.
So it's not always going to beeasy for the spouse or the child

(31:37):
, because they're also dealingwith the very real way they've
harmed you, whetherintentionally or unintentionally
.
And so there's like everythingfrom you know, support systems,
support groups, men's groups,things that focus on offering
and creating spaces for men.
I mean, really it's aboutcreating safe safety and safe

(31:57):
enough and helping.
We need more environments thatare allowing that.
And again, speaking to mencause I do a lot of men's work
is how do we engage more for menthat they can show up and be
understood, be listened to?
They?
can show up and be understood,be listened to, be accepted, as
well as challenged to grow andto challenge and accountable.
Right, Because a lot of menneed accountability and to be

(32:18):
able to show up and have thataccountability is where a lot of
growth happens.
Right, because, again, it'sonly through connection.
Relationship and that's whatI've seen in men's work I've
done over the years withdifferent addictions or traumas
to varying degrees is throughrelationship with other men and
having a place and places toshow up.
It's never done in isolation.
I don't think the data would.

(32:39):
There's no data research Iwould show that shows the power
of isolated healing by yourself,with no one else around you.
It's going to come fromconnection.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
And I think that's a great segue sort of into your
work and because what you'rebringing up is maybe there isn't
a friend in that person'senvironment or family member
that they trust enough.
But there are people out therethat maybe have gone through the
same thing and can support youin that.
And there's a big power in thiscommunity of strangers,
sometimes right, because youdon't really know that person,

(33:11):
they don't know your friends,they don't know your family, and
so that sort of fear of themfinding out is gone, it's lifted
.
What is, I guess, like in termsof the work that you were doing
?
What is the difference between,I guess, the community that
you're building with care andthe cohorts that we were talking
about before I startedrecording?

(33:33):
But I'm curious to know whatwould that look like in terms of
comparing that to therapy,because there are some men out
there, just because we'respecifically talking about them
now, but anybody right, whomight not be open to the idea of
therapy and say there's nothingwrong with me, I'm fine, you
caught me, it was a moment ofweakness and I'll get through
this right.
I'll be able to get myself outof this.

(33:54):
I'll stop the addiction.
I'll stop, you know, using.
I'll stop drinking, I won'tgamble anymore, whatever it is.
But with what you said, we needto find a support system, and
so how is that different in acommunity, let's say, versus
therapy for someone?
How is that different in acommunity, let's say versus?

Speaker 2 (34:11):
therapy for someone, yeah, and I mean, therapy has
its place, for sure, and I thinkit'd be definitely effective
for a lot of people and noteverybody, and it depends on the
place they're in but whattherapy can offer.
One thing is that there's aconnection to someone else that
is listening, that is best,non-judgment, right, and
creating a space that they canshow up authentically.
So that's the power of therapyis that you know they may be

(34:34):
able to talk with it first timeand not being totally judged,
right, and I could just beauthentic and listen to.
And so, because you know,obviously the thing with
therapists is I'm not attachedto the story of their impact on
my life, so it's easier for meto be more, to have more
reflective, listening andneutral and not be so charged
because it's not my spouse,right.
So it's, it's much easier, butthat could.
There'll be a lot of powerthere because I, that person, is

(34:57):
not responsible for the impacton me, right?
If they're seeing me as atherapist, I don't have to be
responsible.
So there's like a powerdifferential there which can be
very helpful.
Now, also, groups we all knowthe classic, if it's, you know,
alcohol and drugs.
There's not again, there's12-step models.

(35:24):
There's other models out theretoo that are not 12-step, that
can also create community ingroup-based support systems.
There's different types thatcan offer and different times
they meet.
And this is something we'vebeen working together last year
and kind of really building thisyear is a network of men and
this kind of greater thing.
Again, we're calling the Men'sCollective.
If you want to know more aboutit, you just go to
menscollectiveco.
But essentially we have ongoingsupport biweekly where we meet

(35:47):
and it's more coaching, but westill go deep.
I mean it sounds.
Coaching actually goes quitedeep and the courses we've
developed go quite deep and getvery vulnerable, get very
authentic.
But it's also around teachingcore skills and it's all about,
first and foremost, connectionwith other men about creating
safe space, about creatingvulnerability, but it occurs

(36:09):
through the relationship withother people, not just me and
Pierre, but other men showing up, and we've curated around a lot
of things that men arestruggling with in our day and
day.
A lot of dads are strugglingwith today's ideas around what
it means to be a masculine manLike.
What does it actually look likein today's world?
You know, what are our valuesas men?
What, what are our prioritiesand how do we derive meaning?

(36:29):
Now, right, becoming a parentcan be such a big transition of
like.
Okay, like I was successfulbefore with my business or
whatever, and now I have kidsand I'm finding it harder and
I'm not performing like I usedto, or maybe I was really close
with my spouse, but now I'm notfeeling that, and so what
happens is I start to kind oflean into addictions to deal
with all this change, ratherthan how do I you know, head it

(36:52):
face on understand what, again,one of my values and priorities?
Um, what's my story around whatit means to be a man and a dad?
You know what has been thatnarrative?
Because we talk about that inour course.
We talk about understandingemotions and being having
emotional intelligence and thepower of that and the nervous
system, of why we need tounderstand, as men, like our
nervous system, because it hasso much information it provides

(37:13):
us on a daily basis.
And are we tapping into that?
Or are we kind of mindlesslynavigating and just dealing with
all just stressors all day long?
And so we're creating this kindof space where we're teaching
men skills by, you know, shortteachings of science based kind
of understanding, withintegrating this into our
day-to-day life.

(37:33):
Whether we're an entrepreneur uh, you know, we work a nine to
five job or we're a dad orwhatever we're doing with very
practical, like tools they canuse, cause men need tools, we,
okay, what do I do if I don't dothis?
Why, if I, if I'm feelingdysregulated, instead of going
and drinking or numbing out onTV for hours, or social media is
a big one, right, people justneed to scroll now for hours

(37:55):
because they don't know what todo to deal with all their stress
and dysregulation.
So they need real skills.
So we're teaching things too aswell no-transcript addictions

(38:42):
as a means to cope, becausethey're feeling overwhelmed and
or they're feeling like, again,isolated, there's no community
for them to be connected to andagain their model growing up
might have been not a very goodone, and so they're just kind of
just doing the best they can,and sometimes the best they can
has found them in some prettybig holes and so to get pulled
out of that is throughconnection, and that's been the

(39:03):
biggest thing that we've heardreported back from our men in
our collective and our cohortshas been not only the teachings
and skills we teach andawareness, but has really been
the connection with other menacross the you know, across,
really the U S and even Canada,is wow, I'm not the only one.
Again, it dispels that isolationand shame.
Wow, I could show up and beknown and not like cast aside as

(39:28):
like a defect Right, I could besupported.
But I'm also challenged, whichis important.
I'm challenged to grow.
I'm challenged to change forthe betterment of not only
myself, but for my family andfor my community.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
That has been the most.
That phrase I'm not the onlyone has been the most powerful
phrase that I heard in the past10 years.
With Curious Neuron.
I started this as a blog,started the podcast after and
social media and that just comesup time and time again when
parents, from the smallestthings of yelling at your child
To very serious things likeaddiction we often feel like we

(40:05):
are the only ones going throughthis and that sort of those
thoughts that go through ourmind Like why am I messing up
all the time?
Why can't I just get this right?
You know, I think of Dr JulieSmith's book.
She talks about thoughts, youknow, and how our thoughts are
not facts, but in those momentswhen we put ourselves down,
they're facts to us.
Right, like I am an idiot fordoing this, I'm not smart enough

(40:28):
, whatever, it is like we are sohard on ourselves.
And just I needed to highlightthat because if somebody is
listening to this and feels likethey are the only one.
You are not.
No matter how small or how bigthe problem is, you are not
alone, and you're right.
That sense of community is whatallows us to see that you're
not.
Somebody else can relate tosome aspect of what you're going

(40:51):
through and that feels good.
It kind of lessens the load onyour shoulders and it helps.
So I'm really happy that yousaid that it just keeps coming
up.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree with you yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
So you know, I'm going to put the link to what
you just talked about in yourprogram because I do think that
you know the men's collective issomething that needs to be out
there more.
Some people have reached out tome.
I don't know about the States,but I know here in Canada
waitlists are long and so youfind out that you are struggling
.
Not you find out, but you, youknow.
You say, okay, it's time for meto you know, do the work.

(41:25):
And then you call somebody atherapist, and they say well,
we're not even taking anyoneanymore.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
The wait list is so long.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
No, there's some places not even adding to their
wait list anymore.
And so it's serious.
It means that there's notimmediate help.
You talked about connection,and I see that now as a
safeguard, right, in terms ofdon't think that you can do this
on your own.
Find yourself, albeit small,but anything, anyone internal or

(41:54):
external, from your surrounding.
I'm just kind of summarizing sothat people you know, just to
make sure I understoodeverything.
But what if I don't know if Ibrought this up at the beginning
, but just a few last questionsjust to make sure I've covered
everything?
But like what if somebody keepssaying, like there isn't, there
isn't a problem, I'm fine?
Uh, it's a moment, right, maybesomebody passed away, a parent

(42:15):
passed away, and that person isstruggling now to kind of get
themselves back up on their feet.
Um, maybe there was a bigstress, uh, with the new child,
right, coming into their livesand now they're afraid
financially and so they'retrying to make more money
through gambling.
Right, there could be anythingthat comes up.
But what if you've?
You're listening to this andyou're like you know what?

(42:37):
I've had this conversation manytimes and they keep saying
they're fine, but then I see thecounts going down, I see that
they're not coming home, orthey're coming home and they're
drunk and it's very serious.
So I know you said coming from aplace of compassion.
At what point does and I thinknow I'm speaking as the person

(42:57):
who approaches that you knowtheir partner.
At one point you might give upand say this is who they are,
right.
What sort of conversationshould you be having with
yourself if you feel stuck inthis cycle and there's a child
there?
And for my own work, what Ialso want to highlight is ACEs,
right, and so these adversechildhood events, somebody with

(43:17):
an addiction, somebody withmental health issues not getting
the help.
There might be any sort ofabuse in the home as a
consequence to an addiction.
I worry about the environmentthat that child is in.
So if you are somebody who'sstuck in this cycle, what are
you asking yourself?

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah.
So there's I mean, a lot, a lotof ways that you know, I guess,
to take it from the story thathave I've tried bringing stuff
up before and the person's stillin denial, like I guess that
that's the example we're using,cause, depending upon you know,
I think again, if you start offwith like compassionate

(43:58):
curiosity, like if you'regrounded as best you can, you
know, one checking expectations,that you can't really fix this
person, it's their own journey,right, you're trying your best
to create like a safe space forconversation, like trying to
really model like, hey, this islike I feel scared, or like I'm
you know, I'm hurt when you dothis particular behavior.

(44:18):
Like, or I'm scared when I seeyou struggling and I'm here to
support find another way.
Right, if you're doing allthose and you've been having
this and definitely need to setboundaries with love, it's like,
hey, I want to be here for youand I'm paraphrasing, I want to.

(44:39):
At the same time, I can'tsupport this particular behavior
that harms me or the children.
So let's work a way to find away forward.
And if you're having thatconversation, the person is
still in denial and it'splainstakingly obvious.
Well then, that's when sometimesyou have to ask yourself like,
hey, what's the change I'mwilling to do?
You know, if it's putting kids,kids in harm's way, obviously

(45:00):
okay.
Then I might need to.
I might need to have prettysomething radical, get support
from family.
I might need to move out withthe kids or I might need to,
depending on what it is like.
I might need to do somethingdifferent because I'm having
these conversations and I'vetried, you know, this kind of
step of like all the things wetalked about and they're still
in denial, denial, denial, andit's getting worse, worse, worse
, worse, worse.
That's when it's like I do loveyou and care for you and I'm

(45:22):
unwilling, right To keep doingthis back and forth and pretend
it's not here Cause it's hurtingour family, like we have no
money, or you lost your jobagain, or you're raging when
you're drunk and you're hurtingus, like I have to protect now,
like I got to go, and I knowthat's a huge, by the way,
decision to do that.

(45:42):
So me saying this for somepeople is like that's not an
easy thing to make to changeright, and so there could be a
lot of fear there of like well,what if I do that and they get
worse?
I mean, there's so many, that'swhy is there such a there's a

(46:03):
lot of layers to addiction, eventhe fear of family members or
friends finding out like this iswhat your home not changing.
What are you willing to do foryou and what's okay for you?
And then, if you have kidsinvolved, okay, well, what's the
degree of the harm it's havingto them?
It's not you anymore and so andsetting.
That is one of the hardestthings but one of the most
loving things to do, like tochange and say I'm unwilling to

(46:26):
do this anymore, whatever thisis, and I need to do something
different.
Or until you do like not anultimatum, but I want to work
with you.
At the same time, in theinterim, I'm unwilling to do
this.
I'm unwilling to stay in thishouse as you're raging at our
kids and letting you scream andbreak things you know, as an
example.
So when you do that, here'swhat I'm doing.
I'm taking the kids to my mom'sor dad's, or we're getting a

(46:48):
hotel and that's what we'redoing, or I'm kicking you out as
you do that, right In themeantime, till you cool off.
So it's kind of like being veryclear, very like love and
boundaried right, and then fromthere you know that's the next
step.
Who knows what's going to happenif the person continues being
in denial, okay then what?
Because those are ongoingconversations so it's hard to
tell someone exactly to do.
Of course, If that's you,definitely getting some support

(47:11):
yourself would be goodProfessionally from a friend or
someone who understandsaddiction really well would be
good for you to get your ownsupport too, so you could have
like another person to kind ofthink with you, because it's
going to be so emotionallycharged if you're trying to also
deal with this by yourself andnot and I understand trying to
keep things private, and that'sgood, and we don't want to just

(47:32):
like spread stuff to get youknow like a wildfire to people,
but even be choosy with who youtalk to, who can really hold it
in confidence and support youbut also be frank with you too,
like like you and like I havefriends that do that too, who
could be very blunt, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Cause.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
we need that Cause sometimes like we cause, you
know, we could get so in ourmind and we're missing something
and something that's a simplething, and we're like, oh my
gosh, I didn't even think aboutthat.
You're right, but even havingsomeone in our corner who could
hear us and offer somesuggestions can really help us.
Like, hey, how do I support myhusband or spouse or wife or
whoever my kid is doing this?
Like, how do I do that?

(48:08):
And so having someone else whocould really help think is going
to be helpful.
Um, cause, yeah, there's a lotof weight in all of this.
And so, um, that's what I wouldsay is you might have to really
change things if the person'snot changing.
And that's in that, because youmight have to really change
things if the person's notchanging.

(48:28):
And that could be a lot ofgrief too and sad.
If the person stays stuck, andit is a sad thing and it can be
a very painful thing.
It could also feel, I think,for some, like they're choosing
the addiction over you.
And I think another way toreframe that is I don't think
they're choosing addiction overyou.
I think they're just that stuckin their own narrative and
story that they're buying intothe lie that there really isn't
a way out.
I think we personalize thatbecause we love this person and

(48:51):
we blame ourselves that if wewere only strong enough or
better whatever, we could fixthem.
And the reality is this personhas a lot of story here before
us or around us that they'renavigating as best they can and
at the same time they're verystuck.
They're navigating as best theycan and at the same time
they're very stuck, and thisstuckness might've been around
for a long time, even before youcame around.
And so having perspective too,that this is not just about you,

(49:15):
but it's about something elsegoing on or other things that
they're doing their best to kindof survive and they've been
stuck in this way of doingthings and their nervous system
is kind of also stuck in thiskind of automatic way of doing
things.
So sometimes just tellingsomeone to change is not even
enough, because some of it's sosubconscious and like repeated
in the brain that it almost it'smuscle memory, and changing

(49:35):
takes time and and they have totrust a different process and
they have their fears too.
Well, what if I do this and itgets worse?
I mean, there's so many layershere and so really I think the
core of this is that you, as theindividual who found out, you
need support and connection withother people, and the person
who has the addiction also needsconnection.
I mean, the theme here is thatwe need people.

(49:56):
We need relationships that aresupportive, that are safe enough
, that can challenge us, thatcan listen to us, that can
encourage us, that can hold usaccountable on both ends, and
that's such a big need, and Iknow for some of us we're
isolated families, right?
I don't talk to anybody, right,and so that's.
I think one of the biggestthings we need to solve is

(50:18):
creating more spaces for that togrow.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Given just to end this conversation, but given,
you know, I think about when Italk to parents and trying to
encourage moving away fromlabels with their kids.
I think about what we hearabout.
Like you know, I'm an addict,are you, would you say?
What would the?
What should we change in termsof the narrative?
Right, because maybe thisperson now they're like you know
, I, they got, they get caughtor whatever it is, and they're

(50:43):
like, yeah, I'm an addict,that's who I am, it's that's me.
Should we be moving away fromthat and trying to help them
with that sort of language?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
No, I mean I wouldn't try and fix that right now.
I think if that's a helpfulstepping stone for them to help
change.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
So it's okay when it comes to that too.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, I wouldn't try and overwrite that.
I mean everyone's got a journey.
I think for some people thatidentification really has helped
save their life and change.
Now I would argue, if I hadthem long enough, say I think I
would want to change it withthem and make it more.
I want to deepen that a bitmore and move away from just a
personalization to say moreabout the dysregulation Right,

(51:25):
deepen that a bit more and moveaway from just a personalization
to say more about thedysregulation, that you're not
an addict, that you're a humanbeing who found a means to try
to regulate your nervous systemand pain and suffering and
trauma whatever through the useof addiction.
But I'm not going to get stuckin semantics with someone and
try and convince them otherwise,because I'd also don't want to
take away if that was somethingthat was life-giving.
Think of like a 12-step model.

(51:46):
For some people 12 steps reallysaved their life.
And if that's what they chooseto believe, great, but the
reality is what they found in12-step was connection with
other people.
So that's why I think it's sosuccessful is that, while
there's some things I would liketo change about 12-step model
personally and kind of update ita bit like more modern brain
science understanding of thenervous system outside of an old
brain disease model that cameout in the whatever forties or

(52:08):
whenever it came out.
Um, that they haven't updated ityet, that like I'm not going to
try to like take that from themat this point, cause they are
getting some of it naturally inthe process.
But I think a refresh would benice to to be updated with the
new science behind the brain andthe body and the body to kind
of get away from that diseasemodel, I think would be good.

(52:29):
But again I'm I think about,like in the movies right Of
these, like what did they callit?

Speaker 1 (52:47):
When you get the family together and you have an
intervention right.
So I think about that and it'slike the first step to like
getting you to realize, but it'sthe movies, right.
And so in real life, does thateven happen?
I don't even know, but therehas to be?

Speaker 2 (53:03):
I think they do.
I don't know how.
I mean, I don't thinkinterventions are happening left
and right, but they, they dooccur.
But yeah, I think I wouldn'trob someone of language right
now.
I think if it's helping themright now, go down a path of
healing.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
I would just let it be for now and just really focus
on how do I support this personand understand?
And again, I think the biggestthing is every person I've
talked to that's had addictionissues and I've talked with many
there's a story.
There's always a story.
There's always this narrativethat comes together and when you

(53:38):
understand that you can reallyyou can have more empathy and
understanding and still hold theperson to accountability of the
impact that they're havingright now, um cause.
Often that person is needingthat, they're needing compassion
, um, they're needing empathyand love, as well as challenge
and saying, hey, this is, at thesame time, this is hurting,

(53:59):
like this does occur and thiscan no longer happen, like this
is something that, or I'm goingto change it this way, I'm going
to hold myself accountable towhatever that is, because I have
to do that as my boundary foryou, which is also a very loving
act, not shaming them, notbelittling but hey, I'm doing
this because I love you and I'mdoing these things because this
is actually tearing us, ortearing the family apart, rather

(54:21):
than building connecting.
Like this behavior is actuallyleading to more disconnection
than connection.
And so that's the thing is likeit's all.
The goal is about connectedsafety.
And so, if that's what we'reaiming at, how do we organize
our life and our support aroundthat idea, rather than just kind
of isolation?
So it's, this is a really, youknow, big topic, sticky topic,

(54:44):
and there's a lot of stories andlayers with everyone you know
all the people that arelistening to this like there
could be from a mild to severeand like this, like stories in
between, and so you know,because it is like there's, it
takes time.
And so I would say give yourselftime and don't rush it, don't
expect change overnight, one dayat a time, and then get support

(55:08):
through your work and throughother support systems.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I do think that and I hopeactually that this conversation
has at least given everybodysome sort of like foundation to
have the conversation and whereto begin and how to move forward
with this.
I truly appreciate yourknowledge and every conversation
that you and I have had, sothank you, and I'll be reaching
out to you when I have anotherquestion.
Thanks, siddhi.
Thank you so much, travis Bye.