April 14, 2025 • 53 mins
Dr. Miriam Kirmayer, clinical psychologist and friendship expert, joins Cindy to discuss the profound impact of friendships on our psychological well-being and how we can cultivate meaningful connections despite the challenges of parenthood.
Here is what we discussed:
• Social connections are one of the most powerful predictors of health, happiness, and longevity
• The "over-under" phenomenon: we overestimate the effort relationships take and underestimate their benefits
• Loneliness during parenthood is normal and serves as a signal of our need for connection
• Even brief interactions (10 minutes) with friends can significantly impact our overall happiness
• Different friendships serve different purposes – identify which ones provide restoration versus maintenance
• Self-reflection helps determine which relationships align with your values and current needs
• Vulnerability and imperfection create stronger connections than projecting a perfect image
• Friendship skills are actually a constellation of different abilities that develop throughout life
• Workplace connections are powerful drivers of wellbeing, productivity, and organizational success
• When we prioritize our friendships, we model for our children that relationships are worth investing in
Watch this on YouTube and share this episode:
https://youtu.be/QNsB7iFxC5c
Learn more from Dr. Kirmayer:
https://www.miriamkirmayer.com/
https://www.instagram.com/miriamkirmayer/
Learn more about psychological well-being:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8989714/pdf/nihms-1737166.pdf
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https://curiousneuron.com/podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my dear friend , welcome to another episode of
the Reflective Parenting Podcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
I am a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
PhD in neuroscience.
I'm the founder and CEO ofCurious Neuron and my goal here,
through the work that I do atCurious Neuron and this podcast,
is to bring a set of skills toparents that I think many of us
(00:22):
never learned, and by learningthem, I think that life can be a
little bit easier.
Emotion regulation skills is apart of emotional intelligence,
and if we can learn how tobecome self-aware, understanding
where we need to do the work onourselves, and if we can
understand how to regulate ouremotions, and if we can build
even stronger and betterrelationships in our lives and
(00:45):
learn how to become more attunedwith our kids, all of that
leads to life feeling a littleless overwhelming and a little
less stressful and a little morehappy, and so I try to bring
the science to you and expertsand conversations that I have,
as well as solo episodes, tohelp you build all of these
skills and increase yourawareness, and my goal also with
(01:07):
all of this is that we improveyour well-being and also boost
your confidence, because I thinkthat there are enough parenting
advice platforms, which is whatI had focused on before, and
what I was hearing from parentsis we are hearing information
from left and right, yet we'renot confident, we're still
struggling, and in fact, there'sso much out there that I, as a
(01:27):
parent, am starting to doubtmyself.
I don't know if I'm doing itright, and so I want you to have
that confidence and I wantparenting to feel good for you.
I have a very special guesttoday and we're going to be
talking about friendships againand connection and the
importance of that.
I know that we spoke about thatrecently in an episode, but I
(01:51):
just have to emphasize howimportant this topic is and how
significant it contributes orhow much of a significant
contributor it is to ourpsychological well-being.
I'm going to share an articlewith you in just a second that I
went and reached out to DrMarion Kermeyer andI really
admire her work and love herwork, and so I thought it would
be important to dig deeper intothis conversation of the
importance of connection,friendships and really
(02:12):
supporting our well-being andpsychological well-being in that
way.
Before we do so, as always, I'dlike to thank the Tannenbaum
Open Science Institute and theMcConnell Foundation.
Both of these organizationssupport the Reflective Parenting
Podcast, and so I'm gratefulthat we have their support,
because to these organizations,sharing science is really
important, and here for me,throughout the Curious Neuron
(02:34):
platform, including this podcast, it is just so important for me
to bring the science to you andto make it digestible and
understandable for you so thatit's simple enough for you to
apply in your home.
I don't want to tell you how toparent.
I want to share the science sothat you can feel good about how
you are parenting.
If you haven't done so yet,please take a moment to review
(02:56):
or rate the podcast.
If this is your first time,then wait till the end of the
episode, but if you've beenlistening to a few episodes, I
can't emphasize how important itis for you to actually take the
time to review or rate thepodcast, or at least to make
sure that you are subscribed tothe podcast.
If you haven't clickedsubscribe and you aren't getting
the automatic updates, then doso right now, because these are
metrics that lead to theseplatforms boosting how often
(03:20):
they show it to you.
How often they show it to you,and so if more people are
subscribing and more people areleaving ratings and reviews,
then the platforms that we postour podcasts on will say, hey, I
think people like this podcastand they're going to show it to
more people as these numbersgrow and the metrics improve.
Then that is how I get thefunding.
Without these metrics, thefunding is not going to come
(03:42):
back, and so it's reallyimportant for you.
If you truly love the podcastand I know you do, because when
I changed the title of thispodcast from Curious Neuron to
the Reflective Parenting Podcast, the title of my email that I
sent out to the newsletter wasGoodbye, curious Neuron Podcast.
And I got some emails from someof you saying, no, don't let
the podcast leave.
And it wasn't that it wasending, it was truly because I
(04:04):
was changing the title of it toreflect the direction of where
we're going with this in termsof Kirsten Ron, and so I know
that some of you I hope thatthose people that emailed me
have at least rated the podcastor made sure that they're
subscribed.
So friendships is aninteresting topic, and not just
friendships, but connection.
I wanted to reflect on this.
(04:26):
So, as you know, last year welaunched the Reflective
Parenting Club and this pastweek our Tuesday call, so I meet
with parents every singleTuesday.
I want parents to have thisplatform or this community where
they can show up authenticallyas themselves and say, hey, I'm
struggling with this.
It's not just about parentingadvice Actually, that's a
smaller portion of it but ifyou're a parent that feels
(04:47):
overwhelmed and feeling stressedall the time or feeling
defeated, like maybe I'm messingeverything up and I don't know
what I'm doing, the ReflectiveParent Club is for you, truly a
space where we talk aboutdifferent topics every single
Tuesday.
You can join at 12 pm Easterntime or 8 pm Eastern time, and
last week we spoke aboutfriendships and we reflected a
(05:07):
little bit about what thatlooked like for us.
There was a mom who brought up,or she questioned how have you
navigated friendships?
This is a new mom and she feltthat she was seeing some
friendships kind of dissipateand people weren't reaching out
anymore, some friends thatdidn't have kids yet.
And not only that, thatmaintaining friendships felt
(05:29):
like a lot of work and we'reconsuming some of the energy
that she had, because you'retrying to message people and
trying to get together with themand that takes energy, and so I
thought it would be reallyimportant to reflect on that
inside with our members, and wedid and we evaluated some
aspects of friendships.
So the questions we were askingourselves and reflecting on is
(05:50):
or were, which aspects of myfriendships my current
friendships are nurturing mywell-being, are feeling
supportive and adding to my, youknow, mental health and
well-being, and which aspects ofmy friendships are doing the
opposite?
And then, once we kind ofreflected on that and I
encourage you to do the same wethen looked at well, we
(06:13):
questioned what do I need fromthe friendships that I have that
I am not intentionally askingfor or trying to get?
And the reason why I wantedparents to reflect on this is
because I feel that sometimes,especially if we're somebody
that's a people pleaser or wedon't want to put our needs onto
(06:34):
somebody else's back orshoulders or, you know, a lot of
us are like that then I feelthat sometimes we have great
friendships because the personis kind to us and very caring
and we give our all to them.
We would do anything for thisperson, this friend, but then we
don't ask them for things thatwe might need.
We don't say, hey, I reallyneed to speak to you once a week
(06:57):
, what's the best time that Ican call you, or we don't say I
have some moments where I'mreally, really down.
Would it be okay if I messagedyou?
I don't want to burden you withthat, but when's the best time
for me to message you?
Or are you okay with us havingcoffee Saturday mornings for one
hour?
(07:17):
Maybe not every Saturday, butI'd love to get out of the house
and I'm a new parent and Ireally need to schedule this in
my calendar, right?
Think about that right now.
How often have you asked afriend for something, knowing
that that was a need that youhad?
But if they were to do the sameto us, if they were to turn
around and say, hey, I reallyneed you to get me out of my
(07:40):
house every week, could you, canyou take an hour or every other
week, right?
Or just call me a little bitmore often?
Would that be okay?
If they would say that to us,we would be there in a snap,
right?
And so I really want you toreflect on the quality of your
friendships, not just the peoplethemselves, but within that one
(08:01):
person, there might be some notgood and bad, but things that
are supportive for us andaspects of this friendship that
are not, and it's okay to say Ireally care about this friend,
but this aspect of thisfriendship is overwhelming,
consuming, and I don't think Ican continue that way.
And if, actually, if I don'tset any boundaries now and I
(08:22):
ignore this part of thefriendship, I might end up
building resentment towards thisperson or distance myself.
And so if this is truly afriendship that I want to
nurture and keep in my life, Ineed to speak up about the parts
of this friendship that I'm nothappy with or that I feel that
are draining right, and that isnot easy.
And so if you have a journal,if you have a curious neuron
(08:45):
journal or a reflectiveparenting journal, I really
encourage you to write aboutthis or think about this just
for a few minutes.
This week I'm also going to postin the show notes an article
written by Dr D Reif, and DrReif is the pioneer of the
psychological well-beingresearch, and in this article
(09:05):
she talks the title isContributions of Eudaimonic
Well-Being to Mental HealthPractice.
I'm really happy that I saidthat word without making a
mistake.
So I really love her work and,in terms of psychological
well-being, her research hashighlighted six domains or
components of our well-beingEnvironmental mastery, purpose
(09:28):
in life, self-acceptance,personal growth, autonomy and
positive relationships.
So let's just sit with that fora moment and remind ourselves
that having positiverelationships you don't need 35
friendships or 100, right One,or at least you and your partner
, you and a parent, you and asibling, you and a friend.
(09:50):
Revisiting these relationshipsand making sure that they are
positive will support ourwell-being, and so it's a domain
, it's one sixth of ourwell-being and we have to
remember that it's important.
So what I'm going to do in thenext solo episode is I'm going
to cover psychologicalwell-being and the science of
(10:13):
psychological well-being,because it reminds us about one
thing, and the best way for meto remind you about this and
this is also a preview of whatI'll talk about in the solo
episode that's coming up is inCarol Reif's article.
She says Aristotle believed theanswer was happiness to our
(10:33):
psychological well-being, but hesaw notable differences in what
is meant by happiness.
In his view, happiness was notabout pleasure or wealth or
satisfying appetites, thingsaligned with Hedonia, also of
interest to the ancient Greeks.
Instead, instead, he definedthe highest good as activity of
the soul in accord with virtue.
(10:54):
It was about achieving the bestthat is within us.
The view of Eudaimonia aspersonal excellence is
beautifully captured by the twoGreek imperatives inscribed on
the temple of Apollo at Delphi,namely to know thyself and
become who you are.
That is a bit of foreshadowingof the solo that is to come, but
(11:17):
it just it's about ourhappiness and it touches on our
psychological well-being, and so, without further ado, I do want
to introduce you to our guesttoday Again, because we are
talking about friendships andconnection and the important
role that this plays in ourwell-being and how we can
navigate these to have strongerconnections and relationships.
(11:40):
Dr Miriam Kermeyer is a clinicalpsychologist, leading
friendship expert.
Dr Miriam Kermeyer is aclinical psychologist, leading
friendship expert and one of themost influential speakers on
human connection and socialsupport.
With over a decade of researchon the science of friendship, dr
Miriam is revolutionizing theway we show up for mentor and
connect with each other.
I'm so excited that I was ableto have this conversation with
(12:03):
her and I know that you willenjoy it just as much as I did.
Please enjoy my conversationwith Dr Miriam Kiermaier.
Hello everyone, welcome back tothe Reflective Parenting
Podcast.
I'm Cindy and, as promised, I'mhere with Dr Miriam Kiermaier.
(12:24):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'm so glad to be here.
I'm so excited for this talkbecause a couple of weeks ago we
had had somebody on our podcastto talk about connection and
friendships and it was somebodyhad written a book saying that
after the pandemic, connectionsand friendships kind of dwindled
and it was easy to let those go.
And parents that were listeningto the podcast said you know
(12:48):
what I really related to thatand that's why I really wanted
to have the conversation withyou and kind of go deeper, which
is what your expertise is.
So let's start by getting toknow you a little bit.
I'm always curious to know howsomebody got to where they are
today.
Right, like it's not just youreducation and background, but
what led to you speaking aboutfriendships and connection the
way that you do today.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Absolutely Well.
There's a bit of a joke in theworld of psychology or
psychological research that youkind of study what you know, or
you study what you experienceand are naturally curious about.
And that is certainly the casefor me, although it's only
really become clear in hindsight.
And so, thinking back, justpersonally, a lot of the most
(13:23):
meaningful moments of my lifehave been those that I've shared
with friends.
Thinking back to summer campand how special those memories
were taking trips with friendsin early adulthood, just all
those little moments of insidejokes and the relationships that
I built with friends duringgraduate school those have all
been very important to me and,at the same time, noticing that
(13:44):
at so many of those keyjunctures in life and those key
transition points, friendshipsare really challenged.
And it's a truism that themoments when we need other
people the most are often whenthose relationships are most
difficult to invest in and tomaintain.
And so, yeah, looking back, Ican totally see how various
experiences have led me downthis road.
But, professionally speaking, Ireally got into this through
(14:07):
the research that I was doingjust prior to graduate school,
where I was looking atchildren's peer relationships
and looking at different typesof pro-social behavior
collaboration, sharing andwhatnot and also anti-social
behavior looking at lie-tellingand bullying and that really led
to this interest in peerrelationships and friendships in
(14:27):
particular.
And then, when I startedworking clinically, it became
very clear to me that adultswere also really struggling to
build and maintain friendships,and so I really wanted to
understand that betterempirically and also find ways
to support people in buildinghealthier platonic relationships
at home and at work.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
It's so important, and I think of parents in
particular, where you know, wethink of the friendships we had
before, kids, the.
You know the quality might havechanged or the quantity might
have changed, you know, in termsof how many friendships we have
now as parents.
And sometimes it's really hardbecause, as you know somebody
with three kids, myself you haveyour best, closest friend that
you probably see every two,three months, right, and that's
(15:06):
the one you're actually puttingthe time and the work into.
But then there's other peopleyou enjoy being around but then
they go to.
You know you don't really takethe effort or put the effort
into kind of building andmaintaining that relationship.
So I'd love to know.
Actually, you mentionedsomething that I want to get to
first so that we can make ourway to parents, but you
mentioned children and I justwant to understand that a little
bit more, because I think it'sironic or kind of interesting
(15:28):
that as parents we put so muchpressure on our kids.
They're at the park and like gomake a friend, and they're like
the little push on their backgo, go, go make a friend, go
talk to them.
Meanwhile we're sitting on ourphones and we're not talking to
the person beside us.
Can we acknowledge that for onelittle second?
And then I want to work our wayto us as parents.
But in terms of childhood, it'snot something that comes
(15:49):
natural, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
No, I mean, I so love that you're calling this out
and calling us out and this isso important.
You are very right and this issomething I see time and time
again that it is difficult tomake friends, to navigate.
(16:21):
Friendship challenges at anyage lives in their well-being,
in their development, in theirgrowth, in their frankly,
success and kind of wholepersonhood.
And because of that, parentsand teachers and this whole
circle of support that surroundsour children, we are all very
motivated to help youth buildbetter friendships.
We are open about how importantthat is.
(16:43):
We are giving that gentle nudgeon the playground to get them
to go and approach someone.
We're talking about howimportant it is to share and
again collaborate.
We get our kids intoextracurricular activities.
Yes, of course, to build skills, but also to build
relationships, and one of thechallenges is that the older we
get, the more difficult itbecomes to make and maintain
(17:07):
friendships, because, of course,we're short on time, but also
there just is less of anexplicit awareness of how
crucial those friendships reallyare and we don't have the same
types of systems of support inplace to find new ways to
connect, to meet new people, andwe need to be much more
(17:28):
intentional about doing so.
We need to be much moreintentional about putting our
phone down and instead shiftingour attention to that fellow
parent on the playground than weoften are, and it takes skills
right.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It's not just about being an introvert or an
extrovert, but there are skillsinvolved, I find, find, in
learning how to build thatrelationship or start it right.
Like I am personally anintrovert, so I'd rather I'll
smile at you, but if you say hi,I'll talk to you, but I am not
the one who's gonna take thefirst step but I'll smile, but
it's so hard sometimes to knowhow to do that, or even small
talk.
There's a skill behind thatthat's really uncomfortable for
(18:02):
some of us.
So how about we work through orwalk through the different
skills, right?
Because I'm thinking of, evenduring a relationship, learning
how to set boundaries.
In all honesty, I think Ilearned how to set boundaries in
my late 30s.
I don't think I knew how to dothat, and the more I learned how
to set boundaries, then somefriendships kind of dwindled and
I let those go because of theboundaries I set and because of
the values.
They weren't meeting my valuesanymore.
(18:22):
And I let those go because ofthe boundaries I set and because
of the values.
They weren't meeting my valuesanymore and I got to know myself
, which allowed me to buildstronger relationships, but
fewer.
So how do we begin?
I guess the path in terms ofyou know, as an adult, maybe we
can start with that Like justthe quality of a friendship,
(18:42):
right, like how do we work onthat?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, you touched on so many important points there.
I want to come back to one ofthe first things that you said,
which was talking about this asa skill, and what I really like
to say is that, whether we'retalking about building a new
friendship or navigatingconflict, or setting boundaries
in a friendship or letting go ofa friendship, really friendship
skills are a collection and aconstellation of skills, it
(19:05):
isn't just one thing, and partof why that's so important is
because I hear this narrativeover and over again.
Of well, not only is it sochallenging to make and maintain
friendships as an adult, butI'm not good at it.
I'm just not good at adultfriendship, and I can promise
everyone listening to this thatthat is not true, that there are
so many different skills anddifferent experiences that go
(19:29):
into managing and maintainingthose relationships, that, sure,
there may be certain skills orcertain situations that you
struggle with or that where youfeel less comfortable, but there
are absolutely others that youare excelling at, and this just
comes so naturally that youmight not be as aware of.
And so, for you, you mentionedbeing a little bit more
(19:51):
introverted, and maybe we caneven talk about the difference
in terms of introversion andextroversion and the role that
plays in friendships.
But you gave this great exampleof I will smile at you on the
playground and really what thatis.
That's a bid for connection,right?
There's an awareness that youhave in that moment of yourself
and of your desire, perhaps, tofeel a little connected and not
only be staring at your phone orto focus entirely on your child
(20:14):
.
So there's that self-awarenessof what is my need.
There's that taking in ofinformation, who's around me.
There's the recognition of well, how can I signal to this
person that I'm open, perhaps,to a conversation and the
appropriate selection of thestrategy of a smile?
And so every one of thosepoints is a different skill and
(20:36):
a different friendshipexperience, and there will be
again moments of that that wefind a little bit more
challenging and others that arevery helpful, and the person on
the receiving end of that mighthave no difficulty striking up a
conversation and engaging insmall talk, but that initial
step of wondering who do I talkto, who might be open, how do I
(20:58):
signal that I'm open to chattingwith somebody, that might be
more challenging for them.
And so it really is thisconstellation of skills and this
give and take that we reallyneed to be mindful of, both in
terms of our own experience andin negotiating with other people
.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, I love that you've painted that picture of
the constellations because itreminds us it's not just that
one skill and it's not linear.
Also, right, it's not like Ihave it, I'm going to build
towards it.
There's so much that goes intothat.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yes, oh my gosh, I love that point that you just
made on on it being linear,because this is another really
interesting theme that comes upin my work.
There are different trajectoriesthat people experience when it
comes to their friendships andrelationships, for that matter.
As adults and and I certainlyhave supported people in my
therapy practice and know peoplepersonally for whom friendships
have always been a little bitmore challenging, that it was
(21:47):
difficult to find those rightpeople to connect with them, to
kind of embrace thevulnerability that's needed to
build those friendships and thatpersisted from childhood
throughout adulthood.
And there are others for whom,as a child, as a teen, maybe you
had a lot of confidence, maybeyou felt like you had all the
skills at your disposal to buildnew friendships and to maintain
(22:08):
them, and, for all sorts ofreasons, when you become an
adult, when you enter intoadulthood and our modern world,
it's all of a sudden verydifficult, and that catches
people off guard.
And so there isn't just one uh,one experience or one right
experience, and each of thosetrajectories can have their own
challenges, because when you arecaught off guard, it becomes
(22:30):
very destabilizing as well andyou're not quite sure.
Well, why isn't this linear I.
I had no trouble when I wasyounger.
Why is it suddenly sochallenging?
What's wrong with me?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
people really personalize that as well I'm
glad that you kind of wentdeeper into that, because I
think of the parents I speakwith, mostly new parents, new
moms that just had their firstchild and now they're not at
work.
So you're not seeing thefriends from work.
You're not seeing your friendsbecause they're not on maternity
leave.
Maybe you're lucky that youhave one and now they're joining
maybe these groups right, thesenew mom groups or these parent
(23:00):
groups, and they're trying.
There might be a sense.
You know, you mentionedconfidence.
I think that's a big part of itand that introvert or extrovert.
Maybe it's a good time to kindof talk about that, because I
feel that our inner dialoguesometimes takes over and you're
like, oh, why should I talk tothem?
I'm not really interesting, allI do is go home and feed a
child and I have nothing to talkabout.
And what's the point?
And you get stuck in this cyclein your mind and I think that
(23:23):
sort of is a wall to kind ofmove forward and make those
friendships.
What advice would you give tosomebody who feels that and we
can even touch the sciencearound this but the not having
friendships is impacting theirwellbeing at this point?
There's a loneliness tobecoming a new parent.
How do we navigate that?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh my gosh, there's, there's so much richness in what
you just shared there.
Yes, I mean, uh, you know, I'mI'm a mother to two little boys
and motherhood is wonderful andchallenging and exciting and
also incredibly lonely, like Ithink back to those early days,
those very long, uh dark, uhquiet or not so quiet nights,
(24:04):
and then you're exhausted thenext day and you just want to be
around people that you alsodon't want to be around people
and you're too tired, and yetyou're around someone all the
time who's right there next toyou, and yet that isn't
necessarily the connection thatyou are needing in that moment
either.
And so it is a very lonely timein a lot of ways, and it also
(24:27):
doesn't have to be.
And so part of this link interms of our relationships and
sense of connectedness, orloneliness and wellbeing and
confidence, really for me is,first and foremost, normalizing
that certain life experiencescan be lonely and, in fact,
certain very positive lifeexperiences can bring with them
(24:47):
a sense of loneliness becoming aparent, sure, moving cities for
a new exciting opportunity,getting promoted at work and
suddenly no longer having againthat circle of colleagues who
are your peers and at the samelevel.
These really positive lifeexperiences can still be lonely,
(25:07):
and when we are caught offguard, that often brings with it
uncertainty and confusion andshame.
And so normalizing thatloneliness happens and that, in
fact, those feelings ofloneliness are not the problem.
They're a signal.
They're there to remind us ofour need for connection, because
without that signal, it wouldbe very easy to say, oh well,
(25:31):
I'm just going to cocoon myselfat home and not reach out to my
friends, not try to make newfriends with other new parents,
and ideally, what we want to dois normalize our feelings of
loneliness, treat ourselves witha tremendous amount of
self-compassion, whichultimately sounds like speaking
to yourself the way you would afriend, and asking yourself what
(25:54):
is this feeling trying to tellme what is the unmet need that I
have?
Is it that I do want to go outand make new friends because the
people that I have right nowdon't necessarily get what I'm
going through, or our schedulesdon't align?
Or do I really want to call oneof my old friends to reconnect
and be reminded of who I amoutside of my role as a parent,
(26:18):
be reminded of all of the thingsthat I actually do have going
on and want to talk about andhave nothing to do with
parenthood, and so there's noright or wrong answer to that.
But asking the question of whatis this emotion, what is this
feeling trying to tell me, canbe very helpful and very
motivating when accompanied withself-compassion, not shame.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That self-compassion piece is also the hardest for
some parents and adults not justparents right, we're so quick
to give our friend this adviceand to say, like it's okay, like
you know, you made a mistakeand we all make mistakes but
then we're not as kind andgentle to ourselves when we do
the same thing.
So the self-compassion piece Iknow for so many parents,
listening is is a hard piece.
(26:58):
But I love that you've broughtthat into the friendship aspect
because I would never havethought about it that way.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Absolutely yeah.
That question, that simplequestion of what would I say to
a friend in this moment, or whatdo I wish a friend would say to
me.
It sounds so simple and yetrarely again do we take the time
to be so explicit in terms ofmonitoring our self-talk and
thinking about how we can shiftthings ever so slightly so that
(27:24):
not only do we feel perhaps alittle bit better in that moment
, but also better equipped to dosomething about our unwell
needs.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I get that when a parent is kind of at their
lowest point or reallystruggling, it could feel like I
just don't have the energy orthe time to give that to a
friendship, right To build afriendship and nurture that
friendship.
I'm already struggling at homewith my kids.
I'm struggling with balancingwork and home and maintaining a
(27:52):
healthy relationship with my ownpartner left for that
friendship.
Knowing the impact offriendships on well-being and
knowing the research around that, Maybe we can touch on a little
bit of that to kind of expressand share why it would be so
important to place some of theenergy on that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Absolutely Well.
This is really interestingbecause it brings up a
miscalculation that we oftenmake.
We know that we oftenoverestimate the amount of
effort that goes into connectingwith others and we
underestimate how much weappreciate this and how much we
value this and how much wefrankly benefit from this.
(28:34):
And so this is what I like tocall the over-under.
It's this miscalculation thatwe make, and what happens is,
when we do that cost-benefitanalysis, we often decide, well,
better off just staying home,better off just resting and
catching up on the latestNetflix reality series that I'm
watching?
Right, and sometimes, sure, wedo need time alone.
(28:55):
We do need time at home.
We can't always be on,especially true for people who
are a little bit moreintroverted, but also true for
extroverts.
We cannot always push ourselvesto be with other people.
And yet very often the defaultespecially in parenthood, when
we are so focused on giving toothers and balancing so much the
(29:17):
default is to lean too heavilyinto the perceived cost side of
things.
And what happens is we start tobelieve that spending time with
friends, reaching out to friends, not only is that effortful,
but that it will come at thecost of something else, that it
(29:39):
will come at the cost of myrelationship with my child, my
partner, my work, my personalhealth and well-being, my goals,
and very often what we seeanecdotally and through research
, frankly, is that when youinvest in your need for
connection, virtually everyother area of your life is
positively impacted.
(29:59):
When you feel better supportedby your friends, your home life
satisfaction is boosted, and notonly that, your partner's home
life satisfaction is boosted.
There's this spillover and thiscrossover, and so if we can
again correct or just be mindfulof some of those
miscalculations that can bemotivating and I also really
(30:23):
caution against assuming thatyou will necessarily feel wholly
ready and motivated and thatall discomfort will just float
out the window once you start tonotice those thought patterns
that if you are someone whoagain perhaps is a little bit
more introverted, or if it'sbeen a while since you've
socialized, or if you're justnot feeling that great in
(30:46):
yourself in that moment, it willtake time and it will take
ongoing effort to move throughthat discomfort, and so it
involves a fairly high level oftrust, trust in self, that this
is worth it and that I will reapthe benefits and that when that
kicks in, I'll be stuck in thismuch more positively motivating
(31:10):
cycle.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It makes me think of.
I spoke with this palliativecare doctor and she was saying
that there's a differencebetween rest and restoration for
us.
And she gave the analogy of abathtub, where when you just do
nothing and you sit back and yousay I'm going to watch that
Netflix series all weekend,that's like plugging the water
from draining, that's puttingthe drain so the water doesn't
drain out of the bathtub andthat's just maintaining the
(31:32):
energy that you have left,versus connection, which is like
filling up some fresh new waterin that bathtub.
And I feel the difference.
Now that I have that visual, Isee it when I go out with my
friend Christina I need to sayher name because she knows she's
listening and she is the onewho, if I had a really hard week
and she's like we're supposedto go out today and I'm like I
(31:59):
don't know, I don't feel like it, she'll be like no, no, I'll.
It's better to get out of yourfunk to see her, like to see
somebody.
We don't have to have a bignight right, just like 10, I
know, not 10 minutes, but likean hour.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Well, absolutely, and in fact you're touching on a
lot of things in there.
So first of all, kudos toChristina for being fresh bath
water.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
What a good friend, but you're touching on a few
important things, which is thatit also actually doesn't take
that much to reap the benefits.
Yes, of course, havingprolonged quality time is
wonderful and something so manyof us yearn for when we feel
like there isn't the opportunityto spend that quality time with
our friends.
And yet we know from researchthat all it takes is one phone
(32:43):
call a day, one check-in thatmaybe you mentioned 10 minutes
yeah, it can be 10 minutes, oreven just under that.
That actually has a measurableimpact on our overall level of
happiness and well-being andhealth, frankly.
And so if you can start to alsochallenge some of the ideas
that you have about it needingto take so much time, that you
(33:06):
have so far to go in terms ofbuilding in social connection,
well, that opens up the door forthese micro moments of
connection that are veryimpactful.
And thinking about Christina andthis idea of the fresh bath
water, I will also say there's a.
This idea of the fresh bathwater, I will also say there's a
.
I come back to this idea ofself-reflection and
(33:27):
introspection and of beingreally mindful of how you feel
when you spend time withdifferent friends and can you
take some ownership andaccountability over who you
reach out to, because maybe somefriends are the plug in the
bathtub and that's not a badthing.
There are people that we needto be able to connect with and
be with, and they don't depleteus oh, we need to talk about
(33:48):
that but they don't necessarilyfill us back up, and so, being
mindful of who does that for youand what state you are in, that
can bring a lot moreintentionality to your
friendships and ultimately leadto much greater levels of
relationship, closeness andoverall feelings of
connectedness.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Can we dig a little deeper into that, because I
think that that's something wedon't know enough about or we
don't take the time to reflecton enough, right?
So one thing that comes to mindare our values, right?
So we have a program called theReflective Parent Club and we,
from the beginning of thisprogram, people have to assess
their values, and I do thisbecause I think that we forget
what our values are, and weforget that when we're in an
(34:31):
environment whether it's a workenvironment or with a friend or
a family member or someone, whenthey are not aligned, sometimes
we feel like we're drained andwe can't really pinpoint why.
It might not just be the values, there might be a lot more.
So how do we reflect on that?
If we come back from an eventwith a friend and we don't feel
like that's fresh backwater, howdo we start to think about okay
, maybe that's not thefriendship I need in my life
(34:53):
right now.
So how do we do the assessmenton ourselves?
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Absolutely so.
It's not a one and done.
There's the number one piece ofadvice that I give that there
will be ups and downs inrelationships and there will be
moments where you just aren'tconnecting in the way that you
normally do, and very oftenthose one-offs have a lot less
to do with your friendship and alot more to do with something
(35:16):
going on in either or both ofyour lives.
You are tired.
You are stressed, you aredistracted, you are worried or
preoccupied.
It might not have anything todo with how you feel about the
person that's sitting in frontof you, so I always encourage
people to pay attention topatterns.
How do you feel typically afterspending time with this person?
(35:39):
Looking at the long arc of yourfriendship, how do you feel
when you spend time together inthe moment?
Does time drag on and does itfeel like it's a really really
long 10 minutes?
Or does it fly by and you justcan't wait for your next 10
minute check-in?
Or you wish you could spend anhour, two or three together?
(36:00):
And I also think a big tell ishow do you feel when you see
them calling or when their namepops up in your inbox or in your
text messages.
Do you get excited?
Do you feel neutral?
Do you feel dread?
That can be an important tellin terms of how you feel, not
(36:20):
only about that person, becauseyou might still really
appreciate that person and whothey are but how you feel about
the role that that friendshipplays in your life in that
moment.
And so starting to payattention to patterns is a big
piece of it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That's, I think, such a great place to start, because
maybe in the moment something'shappening with you, maybe
you're struggling with your ownmental health or a relationship
and you're just putting so muchenergy into it that you're not
getting the same from thatrelationship right Versus.
If you look at the patterns,you might say it was okay before
.
Maybe I'll get back to thatwhen I'm better.
But I'm wondering also if theother person is going through
(36:53):
something.
I'm thinking of a friend whomight always see the negative in
something and you're like ohit's really draining, like I
love this person, they're sokind and they think about me and
they're very empathetic andcompassionate and they're a
great person.
But for the past I don't know Xamount of months it's just been
draining to be with thembecause of what they're going
through.
How do we approach that sort ofsituation, knowing that it
(37:16):
might just be a moment for thembut it's just draining for us?
Do we set a boundary or do wesay, like it's not for me?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
anymore Absolutely Well.
There's no one right way torespond in, frankly, most
interpersonal situations right.
There's so many contextualdetails, there's so much
friendship history andrelationship history that will
inform what we see as possible,what we want to do, what we
ultimately choose to do.
Yes, boundaries can certainlybe a part of it, and there's
(37:44):
interpersonal boundaries wherewe are communicating something
to the other person.
There's also a sense ofpersonal boundaries that maybe
the other person doesn't evenhave to know about, right?
And so some of the things thatI have found to be helpful again
thinking about my own life andalso in supporting clients and
working, even in professionalspaces where these kinds of
experiences come up is, uh, so,being mindful of the place that
(38:08):
you are in, or the, or this, thespace or the place that you are
in when you interact with thisfriend.
So maybe you are checking inwith yourself and and assessing
your own, uh, mindset andemotional well-being before
determining whether you aregoing to accept that phone call
or pick up the phone and checkin, and that you only speak with
(38:28):
that friend when you are in aplace where you can receive that
in a way that doesn't feeldepleting, because maybe at the
end of a very long workday whenyou are so tired and after
you've finished putting yourkids to bed for the last hour
plus.
Maybe that's not the time whenyou have the emotional resources
available to support yourfriend or to just receive this
yourself, and so maybe that's amorning check-in.
(38:49):
Sometimes it's a matter offrequency, so maybe it matters
less when you are connecting,but how often, and there may be
a world in which you're able tomodify that very gently over
time.
So those types of boundariescan be helpful, and there may
also come a point where youdecide that you want to say
something, you want to addressthe situation, and I find when
(39:12):
you can come from a place ofcuriosity and, again, compassion
, those are the conversationsthat are going to be most
helpful, and this is probablynot going to be a surprise to
many of your listeners who arefamiliar, right, with a lot of
this language and a lot of thesestrategies.
But instead of putting the blameon a friend and making it a
character assassination in someway of you are always so
(39:36):
negative, you are unable to seethe bright side.
You are just so draining rightto see the bright side.
You are just so draining right.
You can check in and insteadfocus on what you are
experiencing and express a realdesire to understand what they
are experiencing, and so thatmight sound something like you
know, I've noticed in a lot ofour conversations that it's
(39:57):
really important for me that youfeel supported and I get the
sense that you're going througha really hard time, and I want
to better understand what it'sbeen like for you, but also
better understand what ourconversations have been like for
you, because I'm starting towonder or feel like I'm not in
the best place to support you orthat what I'm doing isn't
working, and I want to make surethat you are finding our
(40:22):
conversations helpful.
How can we work together tofigure that out?
And from there you are muchmore likely to have a
constructive conversation whereyou can share a little bit of
what your perception is withoutputting the blame entirely on
them.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I love that.
That's such good advice and Ithink we can use it for any kind
of relationship, friendship,relationships.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I get that.
We kind of touched on before interms of, like the self-care,
the guilt I think we said atsome point.
But I know that lots of parents,mostly moms, feel that leaving
you mentioned, you know, likethe, if we leave our home or
we're putting something to theside our children, our partners,
whatever it is and there's aguilt that comes around with
that right, and especially whenwe're new parents.
(41:04):
I remember the first time Iwent out for dinner with
Christina after having my firstkid, it was like what am I doing
?
I'm the worst parent, how can Ido this?
And in the end it just thereward and the motivation of
coming back home and justfeeling like a fresh parent,
like everything is all theworries I had are gone.
(41:24):
So I know that it's important.
But what can you share withparents who might be struggling
right now, with one partnersaying I don't see value in
friendships.
I'm always home, but you go outall the time, even if all the
time might be every month orother month?
How do we start thatconversation in our home with
regards to the importance offriendships and how it impacts
our well-being?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Absolutely Well.
There are a few things that arecoming to mind there.
So we know that feelingconnected to the people around
us, to our partners, to ourcommunities and especially to
our friends, that this isactually one of the most
powerful predictors of howhealthy we are and how long we
live.
(42:02):
And presumably not only parents,of course, but humans are
interested in living longer andhappier and healthier lives,
right?
So the buy-in on that French,hopefully is not a hard sell,
and this might not be all thatcounterintuitive, but what is
(42:22):
surprising is the magnitude that, again, feeling connected to
our friends and investing in ourfriendships is so very powerful
far more than we expect, andit's on par with other things
like how much we drink, what oureating patterns are, our
genetics, and so that friendshippiece really often needs to be
(42:45):
centered not only in ourconversations but in our actions
, and so, for anyone listeningwho might be in this situation,
you know, the first thing that Iwant to share is that you are
touching on and tapping intosomething that is very
meaningful, right.
You are touching on and tappinginto something that is very
meaningful, right, and that weall differ too.
There's a universality there ofthis is important for all of us
, but we also all differ interms of what our need for
(43:07):
connection is, what our baselinelevels are, the amount of
connection that we need to feelsatisfied and secure.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Even how we connect, because I think about my partner
and I, my husband.
He'll text friends and he'll belike that's great, I'm done
Versus I'm like, no, I need togo have a coffee or something.
I need to see them and hug them.
So there's a difference.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and and I'm going to talk more
about that but, but I do thinkthat this idea of um recognizing
that your partner might havedifferent needs than you do,
that that's helpful on both ends, sure, and is a necessary step
to again establishing some typeof an understanding, and, at the
same time, the conversationoften tends to be focused on
(43:47):
individual experience of what doI need, what are you doing,
what is my partner doing?
I mean, this brings up all sortsof issues of fairness and
equality, too.
Right, that are such themes inpartnerships that are very
important, and so I think all ofthat is worth us talking about
and couples talking about, andthe piece that often gets missed
, though, is the impact thatprioritizing your own
(44:11):
connections has on your childand on your child's wellbeing,
and I mean there's all sorts ofhelpful ideas and language
around filling up your own cupbefore you know, taking care of
someone else, and the importanceof self-care and kind of being
a stable, safe, sustainableparent.
(44:34):
Right, and, though, it's notonly about being able to take
care of others, that when youprioritize your friendship, you
are sending the message to yourchild that friendship is worth
investing in, and that issomething that will stick with
them for their life.
When you are modeling what itlooks like, what it sounds like
to call a friend and initiateplans, when you are open about
(44:58):
the discomfort that you mightfeel or the discomfort that you
might feel or the vulnerabilitythat you might feel when making
a new friend, it normalizes thatfor your child.
And so there's so much of thisthat is about meeting your own
need and also about being asupportive parent.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
I love that.
I want to be mindful of yourtime, but you just mentioned
something so that'll ease yourway out of this conversation.
That's just so interesting.
So thank you for your time.
The vulnerability part, I think, is also very hard for many
people I think of, sometimeslike the surface aspect of the
conversation.
Right, it's like how'severything great, the kids are
great, they're in this activity,they're doing well, and I know
(45:34):
there must be differentqualities of relationships, of
friendships I'm assuming fromwhat I see around myself too
right, so there are those thatyou can really open up and say
I'm not well, you knowsomething's going on, I'm not
sure why, but then there arethose that everything is just
fine and life goes on.
You have your coffee.
How, if you struggle with firstof all, should we be doing that
?
Should we have those differentlevels?
(45:54):
Are there those differentlevels that I'm assuming there
are?
And secondly, if we strugglewith vulnerability, how do we
slowly take the baby stepstowards that when it's really
hard for us?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Absolutely Well.
I often talk about building afriendship by proxy, and so for
a lot of parents, those earlyconversations on the playground
or elsewhere might be about yourchildren and might be about hey
, it looks like we have childrenthe same age how old is your
son?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
And that might be the hey, it looks like we have
children the same age.
How old is your son?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
And that might be the first point of connection.
It's an opening in terms of aconversation opener a little bit
of parent small talk, right andit's also a way to find your
connection point.
It's a way to find yoursimilarity in this thing that
you share in common, and we knowthat similarity is often the
root of friendship and thatfriends tend to be similar to
each other and they tend to bondover their similarities, and
(46:44):
those initial similarities don'thave to be all that deep.
It really can be as simple asoh look at that, we have kids
the same age, or they go to thesame school, or we live in a
similar neighborhood, or we havea similar profession or a
similar haircut.
I mean it really.
It doesn't necessarily matterall that much, as long as you
establish that point ofconnection, and establish that
(47:06):
point of connection early on.
What we know, though, is thatthe friendships that are likely
to not only survive but thriveand be closer and of higher
quality are those where you canmove beyond that initial point
of connection, and for parents,this is particularly important
where you can move beyond theother, where the thing that you
(47:28):
talk about isn't only someoneelse, isn't only your children,
the good and the bad for thatmatter, because we can be very
vulnerable when disclosing ortalking about a challenge that
our child is going through.
It's true, yeah, and yet it'soften far more powerful when we
can also connect over how thatmight impact us or our own
(47:51):
challenges that have nothing todo with our children.
You can broaden theconversation and bring the focus
back to you and, importantly,back to the other person, and
express a real desire to knowmore about the other person.
Those kinds of conversationsagain create such closer
connections, and one of thethings that I'll share, because
(48:14):
I think it is so important, isthat coming back to that idea of
over and underestimating it isso important is that, coming
back to that idea of over andunderestimating, we very much
underestimate how much peoplewant to get to know us.
We underestimate how much theywant to hear the messy,
imperfect parts of our lives,that they don't expect us to
have everything together andthat perfection is not a
(48:37):
catalyst for connectionwhatsoever.
It's not relatable, right.
And we also underestimate howmuch people like us and I share
that not only so that hopefullylisteners can get a bit of a
confidence boost and know thatwhen there's a parent on the
playground that you know it'sokay to approach them and say hi
and smile, that there's a goodchance they want to get to know
you too.
But also because it is a helpfulstrategy to leverage too.
(49:03):
But also because it is ahelpful strategy to leverage If
you can make it very clear thatyou like someone, if you can
help to make it explicit andobvious that you want to get to
know someone by saying not justasking a question, but by saying
I've so enjoyed ourconversation on the playground
today.
Right, I really like getting toknow you.
I love what you shared today.
Let's do this again.
When are you here next?
If you can really make yourliking clear, you can overstep
(49:25):
what's called the liking gap,which is that tendency to
underestimate how much peoplelike us and, in turn, we like
people who we think like us, andso you are much more likely to
go on to create a closerconnection.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
I have this really big desire to run to the park
now.
I know it's full of snow, but Iwant to make a front.
You've given me so much energyand I know that everybody
listening must feel inspiredfrom what you said.
Thank you so much.
I'm really curious.
I know that you do work withcompanies.
How does it work in terms oftalking about connection and
friendship inside work likeplaces?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, so this is a particulararea that I'm so excited about
for all sorts of reasons.
It turns out that work is theprimary space, first of all,
where we make friends as adults,and so for most people, as you
kind of alluded to in ourconversation, that is the place
where a lot of our social liveslive, and the good news is that
the research is very clear thathaving friends and feeling
(50:20):
connected at work to ourcolleagues, to our leaders, to
our managers, to our mentors andmentees, that that is again a
very powerful force, not onlyfor personal well-being and
mental health and lowering ourrisk of burnout and all of the
things that obviously, again, asindividuals, we really care
about.
It's a huge driver of collectiveand organizational success.
(50:44):
It fuels retention andproductivity and engagement and
creativity and innovation, andso being able to yes, on the one
hand, help people andorganizations foster friendship
at work is a huge benefit, butI'm also really interested and
excited about sharing theprinciples, the science and
(51:04):
psychology of friendship tostrengthen the relationships
that we have at work.
How can we be better leaders sothat we can help the people
that we work with, cultivatecloser connections with each
other and drive the success ofour teams as a whole.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
I absolutely love the work that you do.
Thank you so much.
So if somebody wants to learnmore from you or reach out to
you, where can they reach youand what other?
What do you have available interms of support and courses and
so on?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Absolutely Well.
Thanks for asking and, again,I'd love to connect with anyone
who's interested in this topic.
Unsurprisingly, I love to chatand connect, whether it's small
talk or something a little bitmore meaningful.
You don't have to wait till werun into each other on the
playground, so the best thing todo is to either connect with me
on social I'm most active onInstagram and LinkedIn, miriam
Kermeyer and if you head to mywebsite, miriamkermeyercom, I
(51:53):
have lots of free resourcesavailable other podcast
conversations, articles,interviews and I do have courses
in my Confidently Connectedseries, where I help people
build better friendships andrelationships, both by
strengthening their confidenceand competence.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I will put all of those links in the show notes.
I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for being here and Ihope we get to chat again soon.
Thank you, cindy, lookingforward to it.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Dr Miriam
Kurmeier as much as I did.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe podcast to leave a rating
and review.
Send me a screenshot if youleave a review, specifically,
and I will send you MeltdownMountain for free.
Email me at info atCuriousNeuroncom and, by the way
(52:30):
, our clinical integrationprogram has begun.
And if you would like to bringCurious Neuron, so the parental
well-being into your pediatricclinic, whether it's a physio
clinic, occupational therapistor pediatric care, we are here
to support the work that you aredoing by supporting the parent
while you take care of the child.
And if you'd like to join theReflective Parenting Club sorry,
(52:52):
the Reflective Parent Club youcan click the link in the show
notes.
Join me next Tuesday at ourweekly calls in the show notes.
Join me next Tuesday at ourweekly calls.
And if you want to join ournext family meeting, which is
when we include our children,we're going to be talking about
emotions and how emotionssometimes get bigger and bigger
and bigger, and what do we doabout that?
(53:12):
Why is it important for us totalk about our emotions to our
parents?
That is what we're going to befocusing on, and if you have a
child who's three and older,there's going to be an activity
for them.
That is all included in theReflective Parenting Club, but
if you want to join that one inparticular alone, please make
sure that you are on mynewsletter or reach out to me at
info at curiousjohncom, becausebetween now and the end of the
(53:35):
week I will be creating a linkso that you can join just that
one in particular to supportyour child's emotional
development.
I hope you all have a beautifuland lovely week.
I'll see you next Monday.
Bye.
Hello, my dear friend , welcome to another episode of
the Reflective Parenting Podcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
I am a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
PhD in neuroscience.
I'm the founder and CEO ofCurious Neuron and my goal here,
through the work that I do atCurious Neuron and this podcast,
is to bring a set of skills toparents that I think many of us
(00:22):
never learned, and by learningthem, I think that life can be a
little bit easier.
Emotion regulation skills is apart of emotional intelligence,
and if we can learn how tobecome self-aware, understanding
where we need to do the work onourselves, and if we can
understand how to regulate ouremotions, and if we can build
even stronger and betterrelationships in our lives and
(00:45):
learn how to become more attunedwith our kids, all of that
leads to life feeling a littleless overwhelming and a little
less stressful and a little morehappy, and so I try to bring
the science to you and expertsand conversations that I have,
as well as solo episodes, tohelp you build all of these
skills and increase yourawareness, and my goal also with
(01:07):
all of this is that we improveyour well-being and also boost
your confidence, because I thinkthat there are enough parenting
advice platforms, which is whatI had focused on before, and
what I was hearing from parentsis we are hearing information
from left and right, yet we'renot confident, we're still
struggling, and in fact, there'sso much out there that I, as a
(01:27):
parent, am starting to doubtmyself.
I don't know if I'm doing itright, and so I want you to have
that confidence and I wantparenting to feel good for you.
I have a very special guesttoday and we're going to be
talking about friendships againand connection and the
importance of that.
I know that we spoke about thatrecently in an episode, but I
(01:51):
just have to emphasize howimportant this topic is and how
significant it contributes orhow much of a significant
contributor it is to ourpsychological well-being.
I'm going to share an articlewith you in just a second that I
went and reached out to DrMarion Kermeyer andI really
admire her work and love herwork, and so I thought it would
be important to dig deeper intothis conversation of the
importance of connection,friendships and really
(02:12):
supporting our well-being andpsychological well-being in that
way.
Before we do so, as always, I'dlike to thank the Tannenbaum
Open Science Institute and theMcConnell Foundation.
Both of these organizationssupport the Reflective Parenting
Podcast, and so I'm gratefulthat we have their support,
because to these organizations,sharing science is really
important, and here for me,throughout the Curious Neuron
(02:34):
platform, including this podcast, it is just so important for me
to bring the science to you andto make it digestible and
understandable for you so thatit's simple enough for you to
apply in your home.
I don't want to tell you how toparent.
I want to share the science sothat you can feel good about how
you are parenting.
If you haven't done so yet,please take a moment to review
(02:56):
or rate the podcast.
If this is your first time,then wait till the end of the
episode, but if you've beenlistening to a few episodes, I
can't emphasize how important itis for you to actually take the
time to review or rate thepodcast, or at least to make
sure that you are subscribed tothe podcast.
If you haven't clickedsubscribe and you aren't getting
the automatic updates, then doso right now, because these are
metrics that lead to theseplatforms boosting how often
(03:20):
they show it to you.
How often they show it to you,and so if more people are
subscribing and more people areleaving ratings and reviews,
then the platforms that we postour podcasts on will say, hey, I
think people like this podcastand they're going to show it to
more people as these numbersgrow and the metrics improve.
Then that is how I get thefunding.
Without these metrics, thefunding is not going to come
(03:42):
back, and so it's reallyimportant for you.
If you truly love the podcastand I know you do, because when
I changed the title of thispodcast from Curious Neuron to
the Reflective Parenting Podcast, the title of my email that I
sent out to the newsletter wasGoodbye, curious Neuron Podcast.
And I got some emails from someof you saying, no, don't let
the podcast leave.
And it wasn't that it wasending, it was truly because I
(04:04):
was changing the title of it toreflect the direction of where
we're going with this in termsof Kirsten Ron, and so I know
that some of you I hope thatthose people that emailed me
have at least rated the podcastor made sure that they're
subscribed.
So friendships is aninteresting topic, and not just
friendships, but connection.
I wanted to reflect on this.
(04:26):
So, as you know, last year welaunched the Reflective
Parenting Club and this pastweek our Tuesday call, so I meet
with parents every singleTuesday.
I want parents to have thisplatform or this community where
they can show up authenticallyas themselves and say, hey, I'm
struggling with this.
It's not just about parentingadvice Actually, that's a
smaller portion of it but ifyou're a parent that feels
(04:47):
overwhelmed and feeling stressedall the time or feeling
defeated, like maybe I'm messingeverything up and I don't know
what I'm doing, the ReflectiveParent Club is for you, truly a
space where we talk aboutdifferent topics every single
Tuesday.
You can join at 12 pm Easterntime or 8 pm Eastern time, and
last week we spoke aboutfriendships and we reflected a
(05:07):
little bit about what thatlooked like for us.
There was a mom who brought up,or she questioned how have you
navigated friendships?
This is a new mom and she feltthat she was seeing some
friendships kind of dissipateand people weren't reaching out
anymore, some friends thatdidn't have kids yet.
And not only that, thatmaintaining friendships felt
(05:29):
like a lot of work and we'reconsuming some of the energy
that she had, because you'retrying to message people and
trying to get together with themand that takes energy, and so I
thought it would be reallyimportant to reflect on that
inside with our members, and wedid and we evaluated some
aspects of friendships.
So the questions we were askingourselves and reflecting on is
(05:50):
or were, which aspects of myfriendships my current
friendships are nurturing mywell-being, are feeling
supportive and adding to my, youknow, mental health and
well-being, and which aspects ofmy friendships are doing the
opposite?
And then, once we kind ofreflected on that and I
encourage you to do the same wethen looked at well, we
(06:13):
questioned what do I need fromthe friendships that I have that
I am not intentionally askingfor or trying to get?
And the reason why I wantedparents to reflect on this is
because I feel that sometimes,especially if we're somebody
that's a people pleaser or wedon't want to put our needs onto
(06:34):
somebody else's back orshoulders or, you know, a lot of
us are like that then I feelthat sometimes we have great
friendships because the personis kind to us and very caring
and we give our all to them.
We would do anything for thisperson, this friend, but then we
don't ask them for things thatwe might need.
We don't say, hey, I reallyneed to speak to you once a week
(06:57):
, what's the best time that Ican call you, or we don't say I
have some moments where I'mreally, really down.
Would it be okay if I messagedyou?
I don't want to burden you withthat, but when's the best time
for me to message you?
Or are you okay with us havingcoffee Saturday mornings for one
hour?
(07:17):
Maybe not every Saturday, butI'd love to get out of the house
and I'm a new parent and Ireally need to schedule this in
my calendar, right?
Think about that right now.
How often have you asked afriend for something, knowing
that that was a need that youhad?
But if they were to do the sameto us, if they were to turn
around and say, hey, I reallyneed you to get me out of my
(07:40):
house every week, could you, canyou take an hour or every other
week, right?
Or just call me a little bitmore often?
Would that be okay?
If they would say that to us,we would be there in a snap,
right?
And so I really want you toreflect on the quality of your
friendships, not just the peoplethemselves, but within that one
(08:01):
person, there might be some notgood and bad, but things that
are supportive for us andaspects of this friendship that
are not, and it's okay to say Ireally care about this friend,
but this aspect of thisfriendship is overwhelming,
consuming, and I don't think Ican continue that way.
And if, actually, if I don'tset any boundaries now and I
(08:22):
ignore this part of thefriendship, I might end up
building resentment towards thisperson or distance myself.
And so if this is truly afriendship that I want to
nurture and keep in my life, Ineed to speak up about the parts
of this friendship that I'm nothappy with or that I feel that
are draining right, and that isnot easy.
And so if you have a journal,if you have a curious neuron
(08:45):
journal or a reflectiveparenting journal, I really
encourage you to write aboutthis or think about this just
for a few minutes.
This week I'm also going to postin the show notes an article
written by Dr D Reif, and DrReif is the pioneer of the
psychological well-beingresearch, and in this article
(09:05):
she talks the title isContributions of Eudaimonic
Well-Being to Mental HealthPractice.
I'm really happy that I saidthat word without making a
mistake.
So I really love her work and,in terms of psychological
well-being, her research hashighlighted six domains or
components of our well-beingEnvironmental mastery, purpose
(09:28):
in life, self-acceptance,personal growth, autonomy and
positive relationships.
So let's just sit with that fora moment and remind ourselves
that having positiverelationships you don't need 35
friendships or 100, right One,or at least you and your partner
, you and a parent, you and asibling, you and a friend.
(09:50):
Revisiting these relationshipsand making sure that they are
positive will support ourwell-being, and so it's a domain
, it's one sixth of ourwell-being and we have to
remember that it's important.
So what I'm going to do in thenext solo episode is I'm going
to cover psychologicalwell-being and the science of
(10:13):
psychological well-being,because it reminds us about one
thing, and the best way for meto remind you about this and
this is also a preview of whatI'll talk about in the solo
episode that's coming up is inCarol Reif's article.
She says Aristotle believed theanswer was happiness to our
(10:33):
psychological well-being, but hesaw notable differences in what
is meant by happiness.
In his view, happiness was notabout pleasure or wealth or
satisfying appetites, thingsaligned with Hedonia, also of
interest to the ancient Greeks.
Instead, instead, he definedthe highest good as activity of
the soul in accord with virtue.
(10:54):
It was about achieving the bestthat is within us.
The view of Eudaimonia aspersonal excellence is
beautifully captured by the twoGreek imperatives inscribed on
the temple of Apollo at Delphi,namely to know thyself and
become who you are.
That is a bit of foreshadowingof the solo that is to come, but
(11:17):
it just it's about ourhappiness and it touches on our
psychological well-being, and so, without further ado, I do want
to introduce you to our guesttoday Again, because we are
talking about friendships andconnection and the important
role that this plays in ourwell-being and how we can
navigate these to have strongerconnections and relationships.
(11:40):
Dr Miriam Kermeyer is a clinicalpsychologist, leading
friendship expert.
Dr Miriam Kermeyer is aclinical psychologist, leading
friendship expert and one of themost influential speakers on
human connection and socialsupport.
With over a decade of researchon the science of friendship, dr
Miriam is revolutionizing theway we show up for mentor and
connect with each other.
I'm so excited that I was ableto have this conversation with
(12:03):
her and I know that you willenjoy it just as much as I did.
Please enjoy my conversationwith Dr Miriam Kiermaier.
Hello everyone, welcome back tothe Reflective Parenting
Podcast.
I'm Cindy and, as promised, I'mhere with Dr Miriam Kiermaier.
(12:24):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'm so glad to be here.
I'm so excited for this talkbecause a couple of weeks ago we
had had somebody on our podcastto talk about connection and
friendships and it was somebodyhad written a book saying that
after the pandemic, connectionsand friendships kind of dwindled
and it was easy to let those go.
And parents that were listeningto the podcast said you know
(12:48):
what I really related to thatand that's why I really wanted
to have the conversation withyou and kind of go deeper, which
is what your expertise is.
So let's start by getting toknow you a little bit.
I'm always curious to know howsomebody got to where they are
today.
Right, like it's not just youreducation and background, but
what led to you speaking aboutfriendships and connection the
way that you do today.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Absolutely Well.
There's a bit of a joke in theworld of psychology or
psychological research that youkind of study what you know, or
you study what you experienceand are naturally curious about.
And that is certainly the casefor me, although it's only
really become clear in hindsight.
And so, thinking back, justpersonally, a lot of the most
(13:23):
meaningful moments of my lifehave been those that I've shared
with friends.
Thinking back to summer campand how special those memories
were taking trips with friendsin early adulthood, just all
those little moments of insidejokes and the relationships that
I built with friends duringgraduate school those have all
been very important to me and,at the same time, noticing that
(13:44):
at so many of those keyjunctures in life and those key
transition points, friendshipsare really challenged.
And it's a truism that themoments when we need other
people the most are often whenthose relationships are most
difficult to invest in and tomaintain.
And so, yeah, looking back, Ican totally see how various
experiences have led me downthis road.
But, professionally speaking, Ireally got into this through
(14:07):
the research that I was doingjust prior to graduate school,
where I was looking atchildren's peer relationships
and looking at different typesof pro-social behavior
collaboration, sharing andwhatnot and also anti-social
behavior looking at lie-tellingand bullying and that really led
to this interest in peerrelationships and friendships in
(14:27):
particular.
And then, when I startedworking clinically, it became
very clear to me that adultswere also really struggling to
build and maintain friendships,and so I really wanted to
understand that betterempirically and also find ways
to support people in buildinghealthier platonic relationships
at home and at work.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
It's so important, and I think of parents in
particular, where you know, wethink of the friendships we had
before, kids, the.
You know the quality might havechanged or the quantity might
have changed, you know, in termsof how many friendships we have
now as parents.
And sometimes it's really hardbecause, as you know somebody
with three kids, myself you haveyour best, closest friend that
you probably see every two,three months, right, and that's
(15:06):
the one you're actually puttingthe time and the work into.
But then there's other peopleyou enjoy being around but then
they go to.
You know you don't really takethe effort or put the effort
into kind of building andmaintaining that relationship.
So I'd love to know.
Actually, you mentionedsomething that I want to get to
first so that we can make ourway to parents, but you
mentioned children and I justwant to understand that a little
bit more, because I think it'sironic or kind of interesting
(15:28):
that as parents we put so muchpressure on our kids.
They're at the park and like gomake a friend, and they're like
the little push on their backgo, go, go make a friend, go
talk to them.
Meanwhile we're sitting on ourphones and we're not talking to
the person beside us.
Can we acknowledge that for onelittle second?
And then I want to work our wayto us as parents.
But in terms of childhood, it'snot something that comes
(15:49):
natural, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
No, I mean, I so love that you're calling this out
and calling us out and this isso important.
You are very right and this issomething I see time and time
again that it is difficult tomake friends, to navigate.
(16:21):
Friendship challenges at anyage lives in their well-being,
in their development, in theirgrowth, in their frankly,
success and kind of wholepersonhood.
And because of that, parentsand teachers and this whole
circle of support that surroundsour children, we are all very
motivated to help youth buildbetter friendships.
We are open about how importantthat is.
(16:43):
We are giving that gentle nudgeon the playground to get them
to go and approach someone.
We're talking about howimportant it is to share and
again collaborate.
We get our kids intoextracurricular activities.
Yes, of course, to build skills, but also to build
relationships, and one of thechallenges is that the older we
get, the more difficult itbecomes to make and maintain
(17:07):
friendships, because, of course,we're short on time, but also
there just is less of anexplicit awareness of how
crucial those friendships reallyare and we don't have the same
types of systems of support inplace to find new ways to
connect, to meet new people, andwe need to be much more
(17:28):
intentional about doing so.
We need to be much moreintentional about putting our
phone down and instead shiftingour attention to that fellow
parent on the playground than weoften are, and it takes skills
right.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It's not just about being an introvert or an
extrovert, but there are skillsinvolved, I find, find, in
learning how to build thatrelationship or start it right.
Like I am personally anintrovert, so I'd rather I'll
smile at you, but if you say hi,I'll talk to you, but I am not
the one who's gonna take thefirst step but I'll smile, but
it's so hard sometimes to knowhow to do that, or even small
talk.
There's a skill behind thatthat's really uncomfortable for
(18:02):
some of us.
So how about we work through orwalk through the different
skills, right?
Because I'm thinking of, evenduring a relationship, learning
how to set boundaries.
In all honesty, I think Ilearned how to set boundaries in
my late 30s.
I don't think I knew how to dothat, and the more I learned how
to set boundaries, then somefriendships kind of dwindled and
I let those go because of theboundaries I set and because of
the values.
They weren't meeting my valuesanymore.
(18:22):
And I let those go because ofthe boundaries I set and because
of the values.
They weren't meeting my valuesanymore and I got to know myself
, which allowed me to buildstronger relationships, but
fewer.
So how do we begin?
I guess the path in terms ofyou know, as an adult, maybe we
can start with that Like justthe quality of a friendship,
(18:42):
right, like how do we work onthat?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, you touched on so many important points there.
I want to come back to one ofthe first things that you said,
which was talking about this asa skill, and what I really like
to say is that, whether we'retalking about building a new
friendship or navigatingconflict, or setting boundaries
in a friendship or letting go ofa friendship, really friendship
skills are a collection and aconstellation of skills, it
(19:05):
isn't just one thing, and partof why that's so important is
because I hear this narrativeover and over again.
Of well, not only is it sochallenging to make and maintain
friendships as an adult, butI'm not good at it.
I'm just not good at adultfriendship, and I can promise
everyone listening to this thatthat is not true, that there are
so many different skills anddifferent experiences that go
(19:29):
into managing and maintainingthose relationships, that, sure,
there may be certain skills orcertain situations that you
struggle with or that where youfeel less comfortable, but there
are absolutely others that youare excelling at, and this just
comes so naturally that youmight not be as aware of.
And so, for you, you mentionedbeing a little bit more
(19:51):
introverted, and maybe we caneven talk about the difference
in terms of introversion andextroversion and the role that
plays in friendships.
But you gave this great exampleof I will smile at you on the
playground and really what thatis.
That's a bid for connection,right?
There's an awareness that youhave in that moment of yourself
and of your desire, perhaps, tofeel a little connected and not
only be staring at your phone orto focus entirely on your child
(20:14):
.
So there's that self-awarenessof what is my need.
There's that taking in ofinformation, who's around me.
There's the recognition of well, how can I signal to this
person that I'm open, perhaps,to a conversation and the
appropriate selection of thestrategy of a smile?
And so every one of thosepoints is a different skill and
(20:36):
a different friendshipexperience, and there will be
again moments of that that wefind a little bit more
challenging and others that arevery helpful, and the person on
the receiving end of that mighthave no difficulty striking up a
conversation and engaging insmall talk, but that initial
step of wondering who do I talkto, who might be open, how do I
(20:58):
signal that I'm open to chattingwith somebody, that might be
more challenging for them.
And so it really is thisconstellation of skills and this
give and take that we reallyneed to be mindful of, both in
terms of our own experience andin negotiating with other people
.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, I love that you've painted that picture of
the constellations because itreminds us it's not just that
one skill and it's not linear.
Also, right, it's not like Ihave it, I'm going to build
towards it.
There's so much that goes intothat.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yes, oh my gosh, I love that point that you just
made on on it being linear,because this is another really
interesting theme that comes upin my work.
There are different trajectoriesthat people experience when it
comes to their friendships andrelationships, for that matter.
As adults and and I certainlyhave supported people in my
therapy practice and know peoplepersonally for whom friendships
have always been a little bitmore challenging, that it was
(21:47):
difficult to find those rightpeople to connect with them, to
kind of embrace thevulnerability that's needed to
build those friendships and thatpersisted from childhood
throughout adulthood.
And there are others for whom,as a child, as a teen, maybe you
had a lot of confidence, maybeyou felt like you had all the
skills at your disposal to buildnew friendships and to maintain
(22:08):
them, and, for all sorts ofreasons, when you become an
adult, when you enter intoadulthood and our modern world,
it's all of a sudden verydifficult, and that catches
people off guard.
And so there isn't just one uh,one experience or one right
experience, and each of thosetrajectories can have their own
challenges, because when you arecaught off guard, it becomes
(22:30):
very destabilizing as well andyou're not quite sure.
Well, why isn't this linear I.
I had no trouble when I wasyounger.
Why is it suddenly sochallenging?
What's wrong with me?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
people really personalize that as well I'm
glad that you kind of wentdeeper into that, because I
think of the parents I speakwith, mostly new parents, new
moms that just had their firstchild and now they're not at
work.
So you're not seeing thefriends from work.
You're not seeing your friendsbecause they're not on maternity
leave.
Maybe you're lucky that youhave one and now they're joining
maybe these groups right, thesenew mom groups or these parent
(23:00):
groups, and they're trying.
There might be a sense.
You know, you mentionedconfidence.
I think that's a big part of itand that introvert or extrovert.
Maybe it's a good time to kindof talk about that, because I
feel that our inner dialoguesometimes takes over and you're
like, oh, why should I talk tothem?
I'm not really interesting, allI do is go home and feed a
child and I have nothing to talkabout.
And what's the point?
And you get stuck in this cyclein your mind and I think that
(23:23):
sort of is a wall to kind ofmove forward and make those
friendships.
What advice would you give tosomebody who feels that and we
can even touch the sciencearound this but the not having
friendships is impacting theirwellbeing at this point?
There's a loneliness tobecoming a new parent.
How do we navigate that?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Oh my gosh, there's, there's so much richness in what
you just shared there.
Yes, I mean, uh, you know, I'mI'm a mother to two little boys
and motherhood is wonderful andchallenging and exciting and
also incredibly lonely, like Ithink back to those early days,
those very long, uh dark, uhquiet or not so quiet nights,
(24:04):
and then you're exhausted thenext day and you just want to be
around people that you alsodon't want to be around people
and you're too tired, and yetyou're around someone all the
time who's right there next toyou, and yet that isn't
necessarily the connection thatyou are needing in that moment
either.
And so it is a very lonely timein a lot of ways, and it also
(24:27):
doesn't have to be.
And so part of this link interms of our relationships and
sense of connectedness, orloneliness and wellbeing and
confidence, really for me is,first and foremost, normalizing
that certain life experiencescan be lonely and, in fact,
certain very positive lifeexperiences can bring with them
(24:47):
a sense of loneliness becoming aparent, sure, moving cities for
a new exciting opportunity,getting promoted at work and
suddenly no longer having againthat circle of colleagues who
are your peers and at the samelevel.
These really positive lifeexperiences can still be lonely,
(25:07):
and when we are caught offguard, that often brings with it
uncertainty and confusion andshame.
And so normalizing thatloneliness happens and that, in
fact, those feelings ofloneliness are not the problem.
They're a signal.
They're there to remind us ofour need for connection, because
without that signal, it wouldbe very easy to say, oh well,
(25:31):
I'm just going to cocoon myselfat home and not reach out to my
friends, not try to make newfriends with other new parents,
and ideally, what we want to dois normalize our feelings of
loneliness, treat ourselves witha tremendous amount of
self-compassion, whichultimately sounds like speaking
to yourself the way you would afriend, and asking yourself what
(25:54):
is this feeling trying to tellme what is the unmet need that I
have?
Is it that I do want to go outand make new friends because the
people that I have right nowdon't necessarily get what I'm
going through, or our schedulesdon't align?
Or do I really want to call oneof my old friends to reconnect
and be reminded of who I amoutside of my role as a parent,
(26:18):
be reminded of all of the thingsthat I actually do have going
on and want to talk about andhave nothing to do with
parenthood, and so there's noright or wrong answer to that.
But asking the question of whatis this emotion, what is this
feeling trying to tell me, canbe very helpful and very
motivating when accompanied withself-compassion, not shame.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That self-compassion piece is also the hardest for
some parents and adults not justparents right, we're so quick
to give our friend this adviceand to say, like it's okay, like
you know, you made a mistakeand we all make mistakes but
then we're not as kind andgentle to ourselves when we do
the same thing.
So the self-compassion piece Iknow for so many parents,
listening is is a hard piece.
(26:58):
But I love that you've broughtthat into the friendship aspect
because I would never havethought about it that way.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Absolutely yeah.
That question, that simplequestion of what would I say to
a friend in this moment, or whatdo I wish a friend would say to
me.
It sounds so simple and yetrarely again do we take the time
to be so explicit in terms ofmonitoring our self-talk and
thinking about how we can shiftthings ever so slightly so that
(27:24):
not only do we feel perhaps alittle bit better in that moment
, but also better equipped to dosomething about our unwell
needs.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I get that when a parent is kind of at their
lowest point or reallystruggling, it could feel like I
just don't have the energy orthe time to give that to a
friendship, right To build afriendship and nurture that
friendship.
I'm already struggling at homewith my kids.
I'm struggling with balancingwork and home and maintaining a
(27:52):
healthy relationship with my ownpartner left for that
friendship.
Knowing the impact offriendships on well-being and
knowing the research around that, Maybe we can touch on a little
bit of that to kind of expressand share why it would be so
important to place some of theenergy on that.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Absolutely Well.
This is really interestingbecause it brings up a
miscalculation that we oftenmake.
We know that we oftenoverestimate the amount of
effort that goes into connectingwith others and we
underestimate how much weappreciate this and how much we
value this and how much wefrankly benefit from this.
(28:34):
And so this is what I like tocall the over-under.
It's this miscalculation thatwe make, and what happens is,
when we do that cost-benefitanalysis, we often decide, well,
better off just staying home,better off just resting and
catching up on the latestNetflix reality series that I'm
watching?
Right, and sometimes, sure, wedo need time alone.
(28:55):
We do need time at home.
We can't always be on,especially true for people who
are a little bit moreintroverted, but also true for
extroverts.
We cannot always push ourselvesto be with other people.
And yet very often the defaultespecially in parenthood, when
we are so focused on giving toothers and balancing so much the
(29:17):
default is to lean too heavilyinto the perceived cost side of
things.
And what happens is we start tobelieve that spending time with
friends, reaching out to friends, not only is that effortful,
but that it will come at thecost of something else, that it
(29:39):
will come at the cost of myrelationship with my child, my
partner, my work, my personalhealth and well-being, my goals,
and very often what we seeanecdotally and through research
, frankly, is that when youinvest in your need for
connection, virtually everyother area of your life is
positively impacted.
(29:59):
When you feel better supportedby your friends, your home life
satisfaction is boosted, and notonly that, your partner's home
life satisfaction is boosted.
There's this spillover and thiscrossover, and so if we can
again correct or just be mindfulof some of those
miscalculations that can bemotivating and I also really
(30:23):
caution against assuming thatyou will necessarily feel wholly
ready and motivated and thatall discomfort will just float
out the window once you start tonotice those thought patterns
that if you are someone whoagain perhaps is a little bit
more introverted, or if it'sbeen a while since you've
socialized, or if you're justnot feeling that great in
(30:46):
yourself in that moment, it willtake time and it will take
ongoing effort to move throughthat discomfort, and so it
involves a fairly high level oftrust, trust in self, that this
is worth it and that I will reapthe benefits and that when that
kicks in, I'll be stuck in thismuch more positively motivating
(31:10):
cycle.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It makes me think of.
I spoke with this palliativecare doctor and she was saying
that there's a differencebetween rest and restoration for
us.
And she gave the analogy of abathtub, where when you just do
nothing and you sit back and yousay I'm going to watch that
Netflix series all weekend,that's like plugging the water
from draining, that's puttingthe drain so the water doesn't
drain out of the bathtub andthat's just maintaining the
(31:32):
energy that you have left,versus connection, which is like
filling up some fresh new waterin that bathtub.
And I feel the difference.
Now that I have that visual, Isee it when I go out with my
friend Christina I need to sayher name because she knows she's
listening and she is the onewho, if I had a really hard week
and she's like we're supposedto go out today and I'm like I
(31:59):
don't know, I don't feel like it, she'll be like no, no, I'll.
It's better to get out of yourfunk to see her, like to see
somebody.
We don't have to have a bignight right, just like 10, I
know, not 10 minutes, but likean hour.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Well, absolutely, and in fact you're touching on a
lot of things in there.
So first of all, kudos toChristina for being fresh bath
water.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
What a good friend, but you're touching on a few
important things, which is thatit also actually doesn't take
that much to reap the benefits.
Yes, of course, havingprolonged quality time is
wonderful and something so manyof us yearn for when we feel
like there isn't the opportunityto spend that quality time with
our friends.
And yet we know from researchthat all it takes is one phone
(32:43):
call a day, one check-in thatmaybe you mentioned 10 minutes
yeah, it can be 10 minutes, oreven just under that.
That actually has a measurableimpact on our overall level of
happiness and well-being andhealth, frankly.
And so if you can start to alsochallenge some of the ideas
that you have about it needingto take so much time, that you
(33:06):
have so far to go in terms ofbuilding in social connection,
well, that opens up the door forthese micro moments of
connection that are veryimpactful.
And thinking about Christina andthis idea of the fresh bath
water, I will also say there's a.
This idea of the fresh bathwater, I will also say there's a
.
I come back to this idea ofself-reflection and
(33:27):
introspection and of beingreally mindful of how you feel
when you spend time withdifferent friends and can you
take some ownership andaccountability over who you
reach out to, because maybe somefriends are the plug in the
bathtub and that's not a badthing.
There are people that we needto be able to connect with and
be with, and they don't depleteus oh, we need to talk about
(33:48):
that but they don't necessarilyfill us back up, and so, being
mindful of who does that for youand what state you are in, that
can bring a lot moreintentionality to your
friendships and ultimately leadto much greater levels of
relationship, closeness andoverall feelings of
connectedness.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Can we dig a little deeper into that, because I
think that that's something wedon't know enough about or we
don't take the time to reflecton enough, right?
So one thing that comes to mindare our values, right?
So we have a program called theReflective Parent Club and we,
from the beginning of thisprogram, people have to assess
their values, and I do thisbecause I think that we forget
what our values are, and weforget that when we're in an
(34:31):
environment whether it's a workenvironment or with a friend or
a family member or someone, whenthey are not aligned, sometimes
we feel like we're drained andwe can't really pinpoint why.
It might not just be the values, there might be a lot more.
So how do we reflect on that?
If we come back from an eventwith a friend and we don't feel
like that's fresh backwater, howdo we start to think about okay
, maybe that's not thefriendship I need in my life
(34:53):
right now.
So how do we do the assessmenton ourselves?
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Absolutely so.
It's not a one and done.
There's the number one piece ofadvice that I give that there
will be ups and downs inrelationships and there will be
moments where you just aren'tconnecting in the way that you
normally do, and very oftenthose one-offs have a lot less
to do with your friendship and alot more to do with something
(35:16):
going on in either or both ofyour lives.
You are tired.
You are stressed, you aredistracted, you are worried or
preoccupied.
It might not have anything todo with how you feel about the
person that's sitting in frontof you, so I always encourage
people to pay attention topatterns.
How do you feel typically afterspending time with this person?
(35:39):
Looking at the long arc of yourfriendship, how do you feel
when you spend time together inthe moment?
Does time drag on and does itfeel like it's a really really
long 10 minutes?
Or does it fly by and you justcan't wait for your next 10
minute check-in?
Or you wish you could spend anhour, two or three together?
(36:00):
And I also think a big tell ishow do you feel when you see
them calling or when their namepops up in your inbox or in your
text messages.
Do you get excited?
Do you feel neutral?
Do you feel dread?
That can be an important tellin terms of how you feel, not
(36:20):
only about that person, becauseyou might still really
appreciate that person and whothey are but how you feel about
the role that that friendshipplays in your life in that
moment.
And so starting to payattention to patterns is a big
piece of it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That's, I think, such a great place to start, because
maybe in the moment something'shappening with you, maybe
you're struggling with your ownmental health or a relationship
and you're just putting so muchenergy into it that you're not
getting the same from thatrelationship right Versus.
If you look at the patterns,you might say it was okay before
.
Maybe I'll get back to thatwhen I'm better.
But I'm wondering also if theother person is going through
(36:53):
something.
I'm thinking of a friend whomight always see the negative in
something and you're like ohit's really draining, like I
love this person, they're sokind and they think about me and
they're very empathetic andcompassionate and they're a
great person.
But for the past I don't know Xamount of months it's just been
draining to be with thembecause of what they're going
through.
How do we approach that sort ofsituation, knowing that it
(37:16):
might just be a moment for thembut it's just draining for us?
Do we set a boundary or do wesay, like it's not for me?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
anymore Absolutely Well.
There's no one right way torespond in, frankly, most
interpersonal situations right.
There's so many contextualdetails, there's so much
friendship history andrelationship history that will
inform what we see as possible,what we want to do, what we
ultimately choose to do.
Yes, boundaries can certainlybe a part of it, and there's
(37:44):
interpersonal boundaries wherewe are communicating something
to the other person.
There's also a sense ofpersonal boundaries that maybe
the other person doesn't evenhave to know about, right?
And so some of the things thatI have found to be helpful again
thinking about my own life andalso in supporting clients and
working, even in professionalspaces where these kinds of
experiences come up is, uh, so,being mindful of the place that
(38:08):
you are in, or the, or this, thespace or the place that you are
in when you interact with thisfriend.
So maybe you are checking inwith yourself and and assessing
your own, uh, mindset andemotional well-being before
determining whether you aregoing to accept that phone call
or pick up the phone and checkin, and that you only speak with
(38:28):
that friend when you are in aplace where you can receive that
in a way that doesn't feeldepleting, because maybe at the
end of a very long workday whenyou are so tired and after
you've finished putting yourkids to bed for the last hour
plus.
Maybe that's not the time whenyou have the emotional resources
available to support yourfriend or to just receive this
yourself, and so maybe that's amorning check-in.
(38:49):
Sometimes it's a matter offrequency, so maybe it matters
less when you are connecting,but how often, and there may be
a world in which you're able tomodify that very gently over
time.
So those types of boundariescan be helpful, and there may
also come a point where youdecide that you want to say
something, you want to addressthe situation, and I find when
(39:12):
you can come from a place ofcuriosity and, again, compassion
, those are the conversationsthat are going to be most
helpful, and this is probablynot going to be a surprise to
many of your listeners who arefamiliar, right, with a lot of
this language and a lot of thesestrategies.
But instead of putting the blameon a friend and making it a
character assassination in someway of you are always so
(39:36):
negative, you are unable to seethe bright side.
You are just so draining rightto see the bright side.
You are just so draining right.
You can check in and insteadfocus on what you are
experiencing and express a realdesire to understand what they
are experiencing, and so thatmight sound something like you
know, I've noticed in a lot ofour conversations that it's
(39:57):
really important for me that youfeel supported and I get the
sense that you're going througha really hard time, and I want
to better understand what it'sbeen like for you, but also
better understand what ourconversations have been like for
you, because I'm starting towonder or feel like I'm not in
the best place to support you orthat what I'm doing isn't
working, and I want to make surethat you are finding our
(40:22):
conversations helpful.
How can we work together tofigure that out?
And from there you are muchmore likely to have a
constructive conversation whereyou can share a little bit of
what your perception is withoutputting the blame entirely on
them.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I love that.
That's such good advice and Ithink we can use it for any kind
of relationship, friendship,relationships.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I get that.
We kind of touched on before interms of, like the self-care,
the guilt I think we said atsome point.
But I know that lots of parents,mostly moms, feel that leaving
you mentioned, you know, likethe, if we leave our home or
we're putting something to theside our children, our partners,
whatever it is and there's aguilt that comes around with
that right, and especially whenwe're new parents.
(41:04):
I remember the first time Iwent out for dinner with
Christina after having my firstkid, it was like what am I doing
?
I'm the worst parent, how can Ido this?
And in the end it just thereward and the motivation of
coming back home and justfeeling like a fresh parent,
like everything is all theworries I had are gone.
(41:24):
So I know that it's important.
But what can you share withparents who might be struggling
right now, with one partnersaying I don't see value in
friendships.
I'm always home, but you go outall the time, even if all the
time might be every month orother month?
How do we start thatconversation in our home with
regards to the importance offriendships and how it impacts
our well-being?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Absolutely Well.
There are a few things that arecoming to mind there.
So we know that feelingconnected to the people around
us, to our partners, to ourcommunities and especially to
our friends, that this isactually one of the most
powerful predictors of howhealthy we are and how long we
live.
(42:02):
And presumably not only parents,of course, but humans are
interested in living longer andhappier and healthier lives,
right?
So the buy-in on that French,hopefully is not a hard sell,
and this might not be all thatcounterintuitive, but what is
(42:22):
surprising is the magnitude that, again, feeling connected to
our friends and investing in ourfriendships is so very powerful
far more than we expect, andit's on par with other things
like how much we drink, what oureating patterns are, our
genetics, and so that friendshippiece really often needs to be
(42:45):
centered not only in ourconversations but in our actions
, and so, for anyone listeningwho might be in this situation,
you know, the first thing that Iwant to share is that you are
touching on and tapping intosomething that is very
meaningful, right.
You are touching on and tappinginto something that is very
meaningful, right, and that weall differ too.
There's a universality there ofthis is important for all of us
, but we also all differ interms of what our need for
(43:07):
connection is, what our baselinelevels are, the amount of
connection that we need to feelsatisfied and secure.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Even how we connect, because I think about my partner
and I, my husband.
He'll text friends and he'll belike that's great, I'm done
Versus I'm like, no, I need togo have a coffee or something.
I need to see them and hug them.
So there's a difference.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and and I'm going to talk more
about that but, but I do thinkthat this idea of um recognizing
that your partner might havedifferent needs than you do,
that that's helpful on both ends, sure, and is a necessary step
to again establishing some typeof an understanding, and, at the
same time, the conversationoften tends to be focused on
(43:47):
individual experience of what doI need, what are you doing,
what is my partner doing?
I mean, this brings up all sortsof issues of fairness and
equality, too.
Right, that are such themes inpartnerships that are very
important, and so I think all ofthat is worth us talking about
and couples talking about, andthe piece that often gets missed
, though, is the impact thatprioritizing your own
(44:11):
connections has on your childand on your child's wellbeing,
and I mean there's all sorts ofhelpful ideas and language
around filling up your own cupbefore you know, taking care of
someone else, and the importanceof self-care and kind of being
a stable, safe, sustainableparent.
(44:34):
Right, and, though, it's notonly about being able to take
care of others, that when youprioritize your friendship, you
are sending the message to yourchild that friendship is worth
investing in, and that issomething that will stick with
them for their life.
When you are modeling what itlooks like, what it sounds like
to call a friend and initiateplans, when you are open about
(44:58):
the discomfort that you mightfeel or the discomfort that you
might feel or the vulnerabilitythat you might feel when making
a new friend, it normalizes thatfor your child.
And so there's so much of thisthat is about meeting your own
need and also about being asupportive parent.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
I love that.
I want to be mindful of yourtime, but you just mentioned
something so that'll ease yourway out of this conversation.
That's just so interesting.
So thank you for your time.
The vulnerability part, I think, is also very hard for many
people I think of, sometimeslike the surface aspect of the
conversation.
Right, it's like how'severything great, the kids are
great, they're in this activity,they're doing well, and I know
(45:34):
there must be differentqualities of relationships, of
friendships I'm assuming fromwhat I see around myself too
right, so there are those thatyou can really open up and say
I'm not well, you knowsomething's going on, I'm not
sure why, but then there arethose that everything is just
fine and life goes on.
You have your coffee.
How, if you struggle with firstof all, should we be doing that
?
Should we have those differentlevels?
(45:54):
Are there those differentlevels that I'm assuming there
are?
And secondly, if we strugglewith vulnerability, how do we
slowly take the baby stepstowards that when it's really
hard for us?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Absolutely Well.
I often talk about building afriendship by proxy, and so for
a lot of parents, those earlyconversations on the playground
or elsewhere might be about yourchildren and might be about hey
, it looks like we have childrenthe same age how old is your
son?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
And that might be the hey, it looks like we have
children the same age.
How old is your son?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
And that might be the first point of connection.
It's an opening in terms of aconversation opener a little bit
of parent small talk, right andit's also a way to find your
connection point.
It's a way to find yoursimilarity in this thing that
you share in common, and we knowthat similarity is often the
root of friendship and thatfriends tend to be similar to
each other and they tend to bondover their similarities, and
(46:44):
those initial similarities don'thave to be all that deep.
It really can be as simple asoh look at that, we have kids
the same age, or they go to thesame school, or we live in a
similar neighborhood, or we havea similar profession or a
similar haircut.
I mean it really.
It doesn't necessarily matterall that much, as long as you
establish that point ofconnection, and establish that
(47:06):
point of connection early on.
What we know, though, is thatthe friendships that are likely
to not only survive but thriveand be closer and of higher
quality are those where you canmove beyond that initial point
of connection, and for parents,this is particularly important
where you can move beyond theother, where the thing that you
(47:28):
talk about isn't only someoneelse, isn't only your children,
the good and the bad for thatmatter, because we can be very
vulnerable when disclosing ortalking about a challenge that
our child is going through.
It's true, yeah, and yet it'soften far more powerful when we
can also connect over how thatmight impact us or our own
(47:51):
challenges that have nothing todo with our children.
You can broaden theconversation and bring the focus
back to you and, importantly,back to the other person, and
express a real desire to knowmore about the other person.
Those kinds of conversationsagain create such closer
connections, and one of thethings that I'll share, because
(48:14):
I think it is so important, isthat coming back to that idea of
over and underestimating it isso important is that, coming
back to that idea of over andunderestimating, we very much
underestimate how much peoplewant to get to know us.
We underestimate how much theywant to hear the messy,
imperfect parts of our lives,that they don't expect us to
have everything together andthat perfection is not a
(48:37):
catalyst for connectionwhatsoever.
It's not relatable, right.
And we also underestimate howmuch people like us and I share
that not only so that hopefullylisteners can get a bit of a
confidence boost and know thatwhen there's a parent on the
playground that you know it'sokay to approach them and say hi
and smile, that there's a goodchance they want to get to know
you too.
But also because it is a helpfulstrategy to leverage too.
(49:03):
But also because it is ahelpful strategy to leverage If
you can make it very clear thatyou like someone, if you can
help to make it explicit andobvious that you want to get to
know someone by saying not justasking a question, but by saying
I've so enjoyed ourconversation on the playground
today.
Right, I really like getting toknow you.
I love what you shared today.
Let's do this again.
When are you here next?
If you can really make yourliking clear, you can overstep
(49:25):
what's called the liking gap,which is that tendency to
underestimate how much peoplelike us and, in turn, we like
people who we think like us, andso you are much more likely to
go on to create a closerconnection.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
I have this really big desire to run to the park
now.
I know it's full of snow, but Iwant to make a front.
You've given me so much energyand I know that everybody
listening must feel inspiredfrom what you said.
Thank you so much.
I'm really curious.
I know that you do work withcompanies.
How does it work in terms oftalking about connection and
friendship inside work likeplaces?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, so this is a particulararea that I'm so excited about
for all sorts of reasons.
It turns out that work is theprimary space, first of all,
where we make friends as adults,and so for most people, as you
kind of alluded to in ourconversation, that is the place
where a lot of our social liveslive, and the good news is that
the research is very clear thathaving friends and feeling
(50:20):
connected at work to ourcolleagues, to our leaders, to
our managers, to our mentors andmentees, that that is again a
very powerful force, not onlyfor personal well-being and
mental health and lowering ourrisk of burnout and all of the
things that obviously, again, asindividuals, we really care
about.
It's a huge driver of collectiveand organizational success.
(50:44):
It fuels retention andproductivity and engagement and
creativity and innovation, andso being able to yes, on the one
hand, help people andorganizations foster friendship
at work is a huge benefit, butI'm also really interested and
excited about sharing theprinciples, the science and
(51:04):
psychology of friendship tostrengthen the relationships
that we have at work.
How can we be better leaders sothat we can help the people
that we work with, cultivatecloser connections with each
other and drive the success ofour teams as a whole.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
I absolutely love the work that you do.
Thank you so much.
So if somebody wants to learnmore from you or reach out to
you, where can they reach youand what other?
What do you have available interms of support and courses and
so on?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Absolutely Well.
Thanks for asking and, again,I'd love to connect with anyone
who's interested in this topic.
Unsurprisingly, I love to chatand connect, whether it's small
talk or something a little bitmore meaningful.
You don't have to wait till werun into each other on the
playground, so the best thing todo is to either connect with me
on social I'm most active onInstagram and LinkedIn, miriam
Kermeyer and if you head to mywebsite, miriamkermeyercom, I
(51:53):
have lots of free resourcesavailable other podcast
conversations, articles,interviews and I do have courses
in my Confidently Connectedseries, where I help people
build better friendships andrelationships, both by
strengthening their confidenceand competence.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I will put all of those links in the show notes.
I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for being here and Ihope we get to chat again soon.
Thank you, cindy, lookingforward to it.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Dr Miriam
Kurmeier as much as I did.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe podcast to leave a rating
and review.
Send me a screenshot if youleave a review, specifically,
and I will send you MeltdownMountain for free.
Email me at info atCuriousNeuroncom and, by the way
(52:30):
, our clinical integrationprogram has begun.
And if you would like to bringCurious Neuron, so the parental
well-being into your pediatricclinic, whether it's a physio
clinic, occupational therapistor pediatric care, we are here
to support the work that you aredoing by supporting the parent
while you take care of the child.
And if you'd like to join theReflective Parenting Club sorry,
(52:52):
the Reflective Parent Club youcan click the link in the show
notes.
Join me next Tuesday at ourweekly calls in the show notes.
Join me next Tuesday at ourweekly calls.
And if you want to join ournext family meeting, which is
when we include our children,we're going to be talking about
emotions and how emotionssometimes get bigger and bigger
and bigger, and what do we doabout that?
(53:12):
Why is it important for us totalk about our emotions to our
parents?
That is what we're going to befocusing on, and if you have a
child who's three and older,there's going to be an activity
for them.
That is all included in theReflective Parenting Club, but
if you want to join that one inparticular alone, please make
sure that you are on mynewsletter or reach out to me at
info at curiousjohncom, becausebetween now and the end of the
(53:35):
week I will be creating a linkso that you can join just that
one in particular to supportyour child's emotional
development.
I hope you all have a beautifuland lovely week.
I'll see you next Monday.
Bye.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com