Breaking Ground with Regenerative Farming: A Conversation with Aaron Viebrock

In this episode, host Joni Kindwall-Moore welcomes Aaron Viebrock, a leading regenerative farmer from Central Washington. Aaron shares insights into his journey of transitioning from conventional to regenerative farming practices on his 1,500-acre farm. The discussion explores topics like no-till farming, continuous cropping, reducing chemical usage, and improving soil health through biological methods. Aaron highlights the challenges of farming in an arid climate with low rainfall, innovative approaches to weed management, and the potential of crop diversity to enhance sustainability. The episode emphasizes the importance of farmer education, market development for diverse crops, and aligning policy to support regenerative agriculture.

Show Notes

Episode Title: Breaking Ground with Regenerative Farming: A Conversation with Aaron Viebrock

Host: Joni Kindwall-Moore
Guest: Aaron Viebrock

Topics Covered:

• Aaron’s transition to regenerative farming and his collaboration with local groups like the Spokane Conservation District and FarmSmart.
• Challenges of farming in a low-rainfall region and innovative practices like no-till farming.
• The benefits of continuous cropping and reducing reliance on synthetic fertilizers and herbicides.
• Exploring crop diversity with companion planting and cover crops to improve soil health and control weeds naturally.
• Insights into soil health, rhizophagy, and the role of biology in creating nutrient-dense crops.
• The importance of developing markets for alternative crops like sorghum and millet to support regenerative farming.
• Policy and insurance challenges for farmers adopting regenerative practices.

Key Takeaways:

• Regenerative agriculture can reduce chemical dependence, improve soil health, and increase farm sustainability.
• Collaboration and knowledge sharing among farmers are vital for innovation and success.
• Consumer demand and market development are critical for supporting diverse, nutrient-dense crops.
• Policies must evolve to better support farmers transitioning to regenerative systems.

Call to Action:

• Follow Aaron on Facebook under "O & V Brock" or contact Joni to connect with him directly.
• Share this episode with your community and leave a review on Apple Podcasts to support the podcast’s mission.

Closing Thought:
Together, we can make regenerative agriculture the norm, ensuring a healthier planet and better food for future generations.

Regenerative by design is hosted by Snacktivist.  Snacktivist creates baking mixes and finished products that are allergy-friendly, soil, water, and carbon-focused, all while radically impacting human nutrition by transforming staple foods into something more than just empty calories.   Visit snacktivistfoods.com to learn more.

Funding for Regenerative By Design Podcast was made possible by a grant/cooperative agreement from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) Agricultural Marketing Service. Its contents are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of the USDA. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Joanna, hello, everyone. You arelistening to the regenerative by

(00:04):
design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. Iam your host. Joni quinwell
Moore, join me on this journeyas we explore the stories of
individuals and organizationswho are working to realign our
food system with both humanhealth and the health of our
planet. Welcome everybody to theregenerative by design Podcast.

(00:25):
I'm Joni your host. I'm so happyto have you here today because
we have one of my favoriteregional farmers joining me
here, Aaron Beier Brock, who isfrom Eastern Washington, or
Central Washington, and he'sgoing to tell us today about his
farming management. He has alarge farm and does all kinds of
incredible things. And in mymind, Aaron, and then also one

(00:48):
of his good friends and neighborfarmers, Douglas pool, are two
of the leaders in our regionthat are really proving that we
can change the paradigm aroundat scale, dryland, AG, and do it
better for us and better for theplanet. So welcome, Aaron. I'm
so stoked that you're here withus today. Hi,
Joanie, thanks for having metoday. Yeah, yeah. So I

(01:10):
feel like we've gotten to knowone another over the last couple
of years. And I was firstintroduced to your work via our,
you know, our bio farming andfarm smart group of farmers that
we're so lucky to have. And forthose of you who are listening
and you didn't catch the episodewhere I interviewed Ty Meyer and
then Scott Gale, years backduring season one, we are so

(01:33):
lucky in the Inland Northwestthat our Spokane Conservation
District and Pacific Northwestdirect Seed Association years
back, put together a regionalregenerative verification
program to make soil health ahuge focus for at scale, dryland
ag and and you guys were reallyearly movers in that whole
thing, weren't you? Yeah,
we're super lucky to have TyMeyer and the Conservation

(01:55):
District working on this for us,because in our area that Doug
and I farm, there's no one elsedoing what we're doing. It's
really nice to have a group thatwe can share stories with and
successes and failures andpeople to bounce ideas off. And
I think it would be very hard todo if we were the only ones

(02:16):
doing it
100% and one of the things I'vealways loved hearing from your
group of farmers a it's reallycool, because I feel like you
guys are all really genuinelycommitted to what you're doing,
and you're all friends and likegood people. And every year I
see you guys come together andreally swap notes, and I feel
like you get, like, 10 years oflearning in in a season by

(02:40):
sharing your experiences in areally raw way
to be true, it's great. Youknow, we just got back from the
conservation districts farm andfood symposium, and I'm starting
to notice that every time ourgroup gets together, it's more
and more like a family reunion,that with a family you really,
yeah,
cousin family. Yeah, it reallyis. It really is. And, you know,

(03:05):
I just feel like, um, it'sreally great to to learn from
you all, because I'm not afarmer. I mean, grew up with a
foot in the farm, but not everrunning a farm. And when I'm out
in the world talking aboutregenerative and I'm always on
the market side, or the more ofthat kind of thought leadership,
evangelizer stance, and I alwayshear from people, but that's not

(03:28):
possible. There's no way thatyou can do at scale productive
agriculture not being completelydependent on chemicals. That's
what we've been told fordecades, and that's what we know
to be true. Do you find that tobe true, Aaron, we're
trying to disprove that as bestwe can. Yeah, yeah. No. Doug and
I both farm in a seven to nineinch rainfall zone here in like

(03:49):
a desert. It's like a desert.Desert moisture is absolutely
our limiting factor. But thatdoesn't mean that it's just a
smaller scale than what the guysthat have irrigation, a lot of
water are used to. You know,about 10 years ago, we started
doing no till, and NRCS hasgreat programs to pursue the

(04:11):
conservation side of things, andthey're starting to catch on to
the soil health side of things,but it's kind of slow, so we're
kind of on our on our own here,and so we're trying to use their
conservation dollars to to dothe conservation side of it, but
also to increase our soilhealth. And one of the things
that I'm that I'm starting forthe first time this year, is

(04:33):
continuous cropping. I you know,follow, we live in a
conventional fallow area, butwe've been doing no till, like I
said, for 10 years, and it justdrives me crazy having that
fallow ground sit up there andyou're spraying, you know, three
to four applications of Roundupor other harsh chemicals a year.
There's no living roots in thesoil during that period. Yeah,

(04:54):
wasteland. And then come August,when it's the hottest, hottest
part of the year, we're prayingthat we've got moisture left
over to. Had a crop in theground, and it would always just
give me heartache at night. So Iwas lucky. Counter intuitive,
there's just nothing growing outthere, so it's just a dead a
dead, massive soil. And so I waslucky enough to get about half
of my less desirable ground intothe sage grouse program through

(05:17):
NRCS equip program, and thatleft me with about 1500 acres,
and I didn't want to follow 750and and harvest 750 so I got
this bright idea, why don't wejust continuous crop every acre
every year, and we'll try somedifferent crops so we can get
some diversity in the soil. Andthis will be my first full year

(05:41):
doing that. 100% I've been kindof playing with it. But you
know, last year here inWaterville area, we had no rain
after we planted our springwheat, and it still yielded 20
bushel the acre. Now we live ina 40 bushel the acre average
winter wheat area, so to me, nothaving that herbicide expense to

(06:04):
fallow. It's a no brainer. Idon't Yeah, right. Honestly, the
herbicides, my chem fallowexpense has been my highest
expense annually. Easily, it'sabout way above everything else.
Now, Aaron, for our listeners,because there's probably people

(06:24):
out there that, you know, I whenI think about who our listeners
are, I'd say there's a there's apercentage that are farmers, but
far more are people who areinterested in learning more
about regenerative agriculture,and they're coming from other
industries or from otherverticals outside of actual
farming. Could you explain alittle bit about, you know, what
your farming experience hasbeen, and you know, like, a

(06:47):
little bit more about the cropsthat you grow, and why this,
this concept of chem fallow,like a what is chem fallow? We
know what it is, but I've heardthis from many people before who
attend conferences and stuff.Nell Newman and I were talking
about this, and she came to ourartisan Inland Northwest artisan
grains conference a couple yearsago, and she said, chem fallow.

(07:08):
What is chem fallow? And why dowe do it? So I'm gonna have you
back up for a second and talk alittle bit about your farm, what
you farm, and this whole notionof chemical fallow, like, what?
What is it, and why do farmersdo it? Yeah,
sure. I'll back up a littlefarther and go to before chem
fallow, when we were doingextensive tillage on the ground

(07:30):
to keep the weeds down and kindof and hold the moisture. And
you know, there's still farmersin my area, and I'm not saying
they're doing it wrong. It'sbecause it works. It's just, I
think there's a better way. Butthey're going out 678, times,
and tilling the ground. Andevery time you pull steel
through that ground, you'rereleasing carbon in the air.

(07:52):
You're burning diesel. Yes, youare killing weeds that way. And
yes, you are. You know, settingsort of a moisture line that you
pretty much will last allsummer. So you have, you're
preserving moisture that way,but you're also letting it go,
you know, to a certain depth,and

(08:12):
a lot of soil erosion. I mean, Iknow when I drive around during
tilling season, there are,there's like epic dust storms
that are kind of starting todevelop
the water every spring. Yeah,there's ditches in these fields
because there's just not thereto hold all that moisture. So it
runs, it cuts ditches and andguys, just till I'm in and I

(08:32):
think if you know, there's acreek right by my house. And
every time we get athunderstorm, it is brown as can
be, all that soil is justwashing down into the Columbia
River. Yeah, so when we starteddoing direct seed, we, I guess
the idea was that, the originalidea was for erosion. But, you

(08:56):
know, there's, it's not allthat. It's not, it's not all
great because we're, we're goingout in the spring and applying
about 20 ounces of Roundup,glyphosate and probably another
broadleaf chemical like 240 orBanville. And every 30 days,
we're doing the same thing, butwe're upping our dose every
single time we spray. Yeah, thatto the point of, you know,

(09:18):
probably an import of Roundupand and so we were putting on,
you know, terrifying, really,total about three quarts of
Roundup per acre, along withsome other chemicals and
surfactants that are bad for thesoil. It's interesting at the
farm and food symposium are youdidn't go to the Advanced soil
health day, but I did, and itcame out there that the World

(09:41):
Health Organization has declaredthat Roundup, or glyphosate,
they recognize it as acarcinogen, and so I would
imagine that the roundup usagein the United States will start
being jeopardized. So I. Afterfour applications of Roundup and

(10:03):
heavier doses every time, on thedry, old soil. Now we're
expecting an auger, hoping inAugust we have moisture to see
the crop and and it for me, itwas about 5050, sometimes we
didn't.
It's a real crap shoot withmoisture in August, in the
Inland Northwest, so bone dryand so dang hot. Um, I mean, for

(10:23):
the for folks who are listening,who aren't from around here, you
think of the Pacific Northwest,and you think, like, lush, like
Seattle, Portland, rainy all thetime. But where you guys are,
you're truly in the rain shadowof the Cascades. And you're in
the rain shadow of, like, thereally high part of the
Cascades, like Northern CascadesNational Park, which is, like,
it's, like, Glacier. It's huge.Yeah, be the mountains from

(10:45):
our fields. They're right there,yeah, causing that moist air to
blow right over the top of usand land in clic city and East
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know,it's, it's interesting to think
of, like, all those chemicalsbeing put on the ground. Also,
because we know that waterdrives biology, biology is what
breaks down those chemicalresidues. And so being in a

(11:06):
really arid area, you're you'reat much higher risk of
accumulating kind of justresidues of a lot of these
chemicals, just because they'renot breaking down as fast.
That's what I've alwayshypothesized. So, yeah, it's So
what made you think like, oneday Owen's like, or, you know,
like, Hey, I'm kind of tired ofthis, like, I want to do
something different. What wasthat moment all about? For you,

(11:28):
talking no fall terms, when we,when we buy all of our chemical
in the spring and summer, and,yeah, finally pay that bill and
October, it's really eyeopening, yeah. And not only
that, you know, it's the factthat in the fallow years,
there's just nothing growing outthere. I mean, they, the
principles of soil health tellyou that you have to have a

(11:51):
living root out there is oftenall the time, which isn't really
realistic in our area. But wearen't by going to an often as
possible, as often as possible,and by going to an annual
cropping situation, I'll go outthere in the spring and put a
light rate, around, up, down,you know, 12 ounces. And I think
I could even cut that out withsome different chemistries. Just

(12:12):
need to look at how theyactually affect soil health. But
if I put a light rate, say, 12ounces, round up down in the
spring and clean that ground up,because you want to start with a
clean slate. With a clean slateevery time. And seed our seed
our crops. I mean, it's about a70% reduceage in glyphosate for
our farm, which is huge,

(12:34):
huge. 70% reduction is a bigdeal. That's a
really big deal. The biggestproblem in the spring is grassy
weeds. And so I think if wethere's a we there's a, you
know, there's, there's grassherbicides that are a little
safer, that break down insunlight, like we might be able
to use instead, and which, if wecan do that, we'd cut out our
glyphosate 100% now, I'm notready to do that full scale yet,

(12:55):
but it's a thought I had, yeah,
and who knows what the, youknow, potential externalities
are of those other chemicals? Alot of times we just don't know.
But I know a lot of farmers arereally like, in that delicate
fine line of like, we want toreduce our chemicals like, as
much as possible for so manyreasons, but we still can't

(13:15):
sacrifice huge amounts of lossof productivity because you're
fighting the weeds so hard. AndI I work with a lot of organic
farmers in the region because ofmy work as the value chain
coordinator for our Montanagluten free project, and it's a
USDA grant funded project, andwe're working with organic
farmers throughout the region,and we have a processing

(13:36):
facility in Belgrade, Montana,and I have been really shocked,
actually, to hear how intensethe weed pressure is. And I feel
for these farmers, because a fewof them have, have, you know,
admitted that they're worriedthat they won't be able to keep
their organic certification,because the weeds are just
getting so bad that they're at apoint of, like, they don't know
what else to do. They're like,losing the battle. And so I

(14:00):
think we need to talk more aboutthis, like, happy medium of
chemical use, like, because wecan't just, like, stop feeding
the world and not have food, butthen we want to reduce the
chemical usage. And at the endof the day, if we really get
real about soil health andrepairing the soil and making
sure we have the healthiestbeginning ecosystem to start
with, it seems like the weedpressure and the disease

(14:21):
pressure starts to correctitself better, like you don't
have as deeply endemic weedproblems sometimes. Is that what
you see? Yeah,
and one, I think one way, youknow, if we wanted to go
organic, the way we would haveto do that, is add some tillage
in the spring. And you know,tillage is the one thing we want
to get away from, because itkills your soil. I don't know

(14:43):
what's worse, a little bit ofRoundup or a little bit of
tillage, but if we did a littlebit of tillage, we would be
cutting out our chemical now,another common practice in our
area is after the wheatestablished is to hit it with a
broad leaf to kill any broadleafweeds, your mustard, your
thistles. Are growing out there.And we're going to play around
this year with some companioncropping. Now, if you look at a

(15:06):
cover crop that's got differentvarieties species out there,
grasses, broad leaves, youreally don't see any thistle.
This was our biggest problem,thistles and mustard. You really
don't see any of that out. Ithink what happens is, is in a
monoculture situation, yourbiology say we're planting

(15:27):
wheat, and the biology needsdiversity in the soil so it it
has a seed bank availablesitting there. We all got piles
of weed seeds in our fields,just from things rolling across
and blowing across. And so thatbiology says, Hey, there's a
thistle plant here, or a seed.Let's plant that so we can get a
broadleaf plant. I think if wedo some companion cropping,

(15:47):
which we're gonna small scaleplay with this year, we're
planting a planting our wheat,for example, and a broad leaf,
maybe a clover or something likethat, a lamp, I don't know,
something we wouldn't even taketo harvest. So we're providing
that soil with a broad leaf anda grass so it's got diversity. I

(16:11):
I'm, I'm really hoping that wecan eliminate our weeds from
growing. Yeah,
that is such a provocativeconcept to me, that it's like,
by being intentional about theecosystem community that is in
the field, that that actuallysignals and regulates the
ability of certain weeds tobecome a pressure like thistles.

(16:35):
And I've yet to read the bookwhen weeds talk is, I think
that's what it's called. Youread that? No, yeah, I've seen
excerpts from it. I've heardmany people like quote things
from it. So, oh, and you and Iare going to have to have our
own little book club thiswinter. That'd be great that,
because I saw my list of thingsthat I just really want to, I

(16:55):
want to dig through, because Ifind that to be such a cool
concept that, you know, the theallelopathy, or the plant today,
it's or whatever happens in thebiology that helps to regulate
the the presence or absence ofthe other crop, the other plants
that grow in the field. Like, ifwe can really start to
understand that, which I knowthat there are people out there
who are working very hard tounderstand that, um, that's,

(17:18):
that's, like, a kind of arevolutionary concept. And so,
like you just said, planting abroad leaf poly species mix with
your wheat or whatever, suddenlyyou've you've accomplished weed
control without tillage orchemicals, and you're using
chemicals that are naturallypresent in the plants that are
planted there. Yeah, absolutely
what that means. We observe, youknow, what happens in our

(17:39):
fields, and we do some covercropping. And like I said, when
we see a cover crop out therethat's got a good stand and
healthy and a diverse mix ofspecies, you don't see weeds. So
it makes sense that when you'redoing a monoculture crop like
wheat, why there would be weedsout there? Yeah, you know, you
got this one plant competingagainst itself for all the same

(18:02):
stuff that biology is prettysmart, and when it has of seeds
available that are going tofulfill a need, it'll take that
thistle or that mustard or thatKosha or whatever, that strictly
lettuce, and get it going so itcan satisfy what It needs. Yeah,
yeah. It's so fascinating. Now,you know, if you're going for

(18:23):
another crop, like a clover or alegume of some sort, now you're
going to get some other nitrogenfixation too. Would that help
change your nitrogenapplications? Or would that be
like for the following season?
Well, Johnny, since we are, weare, I guess you can say now
we're 100% regenerative. We arenot putting any fertilizer in
the ground.

(18:44):
Oh, yeah, let's unpack that,because that is a cool concept,
like, let's, let's take a minuteto Could you tell our listeners
what that means and how how thisworks from your perspective?
Well,
we're lucky enough to have agood soil health agronomist on
our side. Mike Nestor wasthrowing out a geronto me, yeah,
and I so when we go to theseconferences, I he's taking

(19:07):
notes, and I really don't,because it's just important for
me to understand the concept,and I need him to understand the
1000 foot level. You know,what's really going on with the
soil, but we've the soil biologywill provide the plant with what
it needs to survive. So my 20Bucha spring weight last year
had no no synthetic fertilizers.All we did was we put some

(19:32):
organic rock phosphate, which ismostly calcium, in the ground,
because I have hard soils, andwe're trying to break those up
so we can get some oxygen inthere, so the biology can thrive
more, yeah,
and he was a huge part of that,absolutely.
And he puts together a, it's aextract made from worm castings

(19:53):
to get the biology reallymoving. And that's all we put. I
put that in furrow with theseed. And. And the rock
phosphate also, and that's all Ido. Wow.
So no outside fertilizers atall.
Now, you know, Doug's stilldoing some winter wheat, and so
he will top dress his wheat withwith fertilizer, but with the

(20:15):
spring wheat, you know, we'renot going to yield that high
with it anyway, and I'm notgoing to put any more into it.
In fact, our spring weight thisyear, the 20 Bucha crop, which
it all went about 20, it hadabout a 12 and a half percent
protein level. And so without
adding nitrogen, that's actuallyimpressive.
So you learn with soft whitewheat, the Ideal Protein level

(20:38):
is about 10 and a half percent.And so a higher protein level
means it had enough nitrogen fora higher yield. It just didn't
have the water, yeah, so at 12and a half percent, we had more
nitrogen than we needed, yeah,had you had a little
bit of water, it probably wouldhave pushed that nitrogen level
down a little bit. It's sointeresting how that protein and

(21:00):
water availability are inverselyrelated in so many crops,
yep, and yield and so we had, wehad what we needed for more
yield, just, just not water,yeah, no nitrogen applied, we
had more than, more than weneeded.
What did the test weights onthat wheat turn out like
it was all number it was allnumber one wheat, right at 6061,

(21:23):
62 pounds, actually. So it wasgood. It didn't suffer any from
not having synthetics in thesoil. And I don't know, and
we're playing with other crops,you know, we're doing sorghum
and millet, and we haven't beenfertilizing those. And I our
sorghum didn't work out thatwell this year because we
planted too late. It frozebefore it can before it can make

(21:44):
a seed. But the MEL worked outpretty good. And it was it was
harvested this in October, andit had a great stand. Where it
was good, you know, where it hada great stand. Other areas it
just dried out this summer, butnone of that was fertilized
commercially or, you know, withhow's that affect your
profitability? I mean, that's abig deal when you're not

(22:05):
purchasing a bunch of extra, youknow, inputs.
Well, it helps a lot. You know,the worm castings and the rock
phosphate aren't free, yeah,yeah. They are starting to save
our own seed. I think that thatseed grown in our own soil, when
it comes out, it's, it's, it'schanged a little bit to adapt to

(22:27):
the environment it was grown in.So I, you know, I think there's
something to that sort we'regonna start with having our own
seed. We're gonna eliminate thatexpense. And the The hope is,
once our soil health is better,and we have a little bit our

(22:48):
soil is not as compact. It'sbroken up a little bit where
oxygen can get down in there.It's got more structure that we
will have to that we will beable to reduce
infiltration of water too, I'msure, absolutely, and that we'll
be able to reduce or eliminatethese inputs that we are using
incredible. Let's
go back to this continuouscropping then. So, you know,

(23:09):
we've, we've just kind ofexperienced your trajectory, and
like, you know, the kind offarming you had been doing, and
this, this, this journey thatyou guys have made to being in
this regenerative zone, soyou're now going into continuous
cropping. And how is that goingto affect your need to use
chemicals like herbicides duringthe rest of your growing season?

(23:33):
Well, we're back to thiscompanion cropping thing. If
this works, then that it's goingto be great. Yeah. You know,
last year I did spray 240 hertz,you know, some broadleaf
herbicide on the spring wheat.If we can get away from that,
that's going to be great. Yeah,yeah.

(23:55):
Every time we can get rid of achemical, in my mind, that's a
big deal, because it's just, wedon't know. I look at it like a
nurse, you know, I'm like, everytime we can get, not give a
patient a chemical and thenimpact their health. Like,
that's the gold standard, youknow. And absolutely, when you
need the chemicals in thisemergency, or you absolutely
need them, you've, you've, like,you know, you really need it.

(24:16):
It's not just indiscriminate useor it's very conditioned
a lot in this it does. I
see crazy stuff out there, thesechemical
companies that are pushing theirproducts. They're very good
salesmen, and they've got forforever. They've they've made
people believe they have to usetheir products. I would like to
get to a point where we're onlyusing those, you know,

(24:37):
chemistry, when we really,really have to, because I
wanted, I would much rather relyon the biology of the soil to
correct these, these issues thatwe have. Yeah,
like Keith mortar always says,um, it's fun, because I, I loved
this quote, and I was doing aninterview with him, and so I put
it on some some stuff. It said,Well, do you want to be a slave

(24:57):
to the chemical company, or doyou want to be a. Slave to the
soil he's like, I'd rather be aslave to soil biology all day
long. And I just thought thatwas, like, a great quote, you
know, because he's like, look,we're gonna have to be working
with something like, you gotta,you've gotta choose,
and that means we have to dosomething to to help that soil
biology along, to, yeah,
feed it. I mean, the plants arealso farmers and people often

(25:21):
forget that that plants arefarmers too, and that they're
dedicating a huge portion oftheir sugars and metabolites to
the soil to nurture themicrobiome of the soil so that
it provides the best food forthem. And in conventional
systems, we've kind of like wekind of have assumed that plants
operate in a vacuum, so that ifwe just sterilize the soil and

(25:41):
then give them exactly what theyneed, they'll just grow and
flourish. But what we've foundis that they're high
susceptibility of disease andpests and don't produce this
high quality food. And I wouldimagine that with what what you
and Doug are doing up there youand Douglas, it's, you know,
it'd be great to do somenutrient density testing, if you
guys haven't already, and seewhere you're at compared to
other conventional commodities.

(26:03):
Yeah, you know, at the farm andfood symposium is when they they
kind of told us that nutrientdensity in foods doesn't depend
on organic or conventional orall these other kinds of
farming. It depends on soilhealth. Healthy soil produces
nutrient dense food. No, I'm notsure how we would measure that
ourselves, but I know there'ssomething to that. Yeah,

(26:25):
absolutely. And then the otherthing, I'm sorry, Johnny, one of
the other things, go ahead. It'sfascinates me that kind of, you
know, it turn the light bulb onfor me is this whole rhizophage
thing, and how this, the rootsinteract with the microbes in
the soil for to get nutrients.And when we put synthetic
fertilizers in the ground, itshuts off that cycle.

(26:48):
You know, the last guests I hadon the podcast were our friends
from Tania biologicals, andBruce and Dennis, and we talked
a lot about rhizophage and thatwhole feedback system. So, like,
I'd love to actually hear alittle bit more from you about
that. And like, what you'veseen, I know that's like, it's
there. I mean, they take it to,like, really fun, super nerd

(27:10):
level, which I might do that foryou. I'll send you the link. It
is probably one of my favoritepodcasts I've ever recorded,
because you know how it is withthose guys. You get them going,
and it's, like, just incredible.But like this whole concept of
like that that we'veunderappreciated how the use of
chemicals shut down the plantsinnate natural abilities to

(27:31):
regulate their own nutrition andtheir own environment. And a lot
of the time when I'm when I'mtalking to farmers that have
gone down a regenerativemanagement pathway, that's one
of the more beautiful takeaways,is that they they're like, we're
actually allowing the plants toactually take care of themselves
better by getting out of theway.
Well, you look at the pastureground around, it's never been

(27:51):
fertilized, and the plants arepretty healthy. Yeah, right.
There's something to it, yeah.Another thing we're not doing
anymore is putting seedtreatment, on our seed factor,
inoculating it with the wormcasing.
That's a hot topic, the seedseed treatment. And you were
using everything synthetic inthe soil. That's, that's the

(28:13):
Yeah,
yeah, that's the goal. So, youknow, with your continuous
cropping, you mentioned thatyou're doing that this year, and
what, what kind of crops are youlooking at? We've talked about
sorghum and millet, which, ifyou know me, you know, I get
excited about sorghum andmillet, wheat. What other crops
do you grow up there?
Just to note on the sorghum, I'mnot going to say we've been

(28:34):
successful on sorghum yet. Youknow, the first, yeah, first
year we grew it. Never dried outenough to harvest it. I mean,
he's harvestable, just notenough to store it. So I let sit
all winter. And then we gotlucky in March this year and had
a worm spill, and I went out andharvested and it worked out
great. I kind of had heartacheleaving it out over the winter,

(28:55):
but if that's what we do, andthen this year, you know, we got
hooked up with Larry Richardson,he recommended that we seed it
later. So the first basket inMay 17. And then this year we
see it May or June 7. Yeah,about the time it was setting
ahead in the a colonel in thehead. It froze. So,
so frustrating. And we had alike, a odd summer in our part

(29:21):
of the world, like August wascool and wet, in which it
normally isn't. Did youexperience that
that didn't even throw aheadbecause it was so dry?
Wow, no kidding. So
our solution is seed earlier.Get the plant established. If it
freezes out, then it freezesout. I would rather have it
freeze out early than late. Atleast if we freaked out early,

(29:41):
we can come in there orsomething else, or even if we
have to follow it, we follow it,or put a cover out there, or
something like that. Yeah.
No, that makes a lot of sense.And what other crops are you?
Oh, sorry, go
ahead. No, the challenge is themarkets, finding a market for
these crops. Oh,
as you and I know, well, wehave, I have spent 10 years.
Trying to grow markets forsorghum and millet, and there

(30:04):
has been no help. Um, like,literally every invest, almost
every investor in the world,except for ones that are in the
sorghum industry, literally patyou on the back. And they're
like, God, this is suchimportant work. Good luck with
that. And I'm like, Okay, sowe're expected to build markets
for novel, underutilized cropsand have no marketing budget and
no help and littleinfrastructure. Like, it's

(30:27):
ridiculous, and it's been, it'sbeen a real lesson to me,
because it's like, you know, theUN invited me to speak about
this topic, but I can't getanybody in North America excited
enough to, like, blend, youknow, to lean in, like
retailers.
Don't you think, though there's,there's just too much money in
the way things are right now? I

(30:48):
guess so. But you'd think that,like the whole foods and the
sprouts and like those moreinfluential natural products,
channels would want to lean in,but I have found them to be very
resistant to the messaging. AndI'm like, you guys, you're
getting behind regenerative butregenerative corn, wheat and
rice, is not going to solvethings. No, we actually need
diversity in order toregenerate. And a diversity in

(31:11):
the field is driven by diversityon the plate, because that's
what drives the market. And ifthey expect farmers to invest in
all the crop diversity whileonly supporting markets for
Regenerative wheat and rice andcorn, then they're setting you
guys up for failure. And Iactually kind of hold them
responsible for it. I've reallytaken them to task lately

(31:32):
because I'm tired of it. I'mreally tired of them ignoring
people like us and leaving usout to dry and being you know,
when you're the bleeding tip ofthe spear and you're leading the
way, it's like you're already atrisk. And then the fact that
they don't offer any supportjust adds adds to it. So
and I think the the conventionalwisdom is that we need to have

(31:52):
mass produced food in order tofeed the world, even though
there's, there doesn't, it's nota nutrient dense product. It's,
yes, it does feed the world, butpeople look how many people are
sick in the world too. Yeah,
you know exactly, calories andhealth do not necessarily, um,
correlate in a perfect in aperfect manner. Um, like the

(32:15):
United States is just a perfectexample of excess calories with
still having gross micronutrientdeficiencies, yeah, and, you
know, and that just drives overeating, because the body still
thinks it's starving. So, youknow, we really got long lines.
We've really got to work onthat. Yeah, we've really got to
work on that, and we'll continueto, of course. I mean, you know,

(32:35):
you know, you know me, but it's,it's been frustrating because
I've, I've heard loud and clear.Now, working with the farm smart
and bio farming group since Ithink 2018 like that, that that
was the biggest deal was we hadto drive market development for
diverse crops. And we, I feellike we haven't made any
headway. Unfortunately.
Oh, I think, I think you've madeheadway. Joni, well, it doesn't

(32:59):
feel that way,
but thank you. It's good to knowat least people are talking
about it. But we'll, you know,we'll keep pushing. Yeah, I
think education and people beingaware of what, what really
happens is, is a big thing. Ithink if they know that,
they're, you know, if they had achoice at a grocery store to buy
nutrient dense flour or any anyfood, carrots versus something

(33:20):
that's mass produced on a farmthat full of pesticides and
chemicals that they're going togo with, the more healthy one,
it
just feels like the flavor isbetter too. Absolutely,
absolutely, yeah, the flavor isbetter. So, you know, we'll keep
working, but boy, you know, wesure have a long ways to go. But
I love talking to farmers likeyou and Douglas and many of the
others that are in this biofarming and farm smart group.

(33:43):
It's really incredible, becauseyou guys are proving that it can
be done. And, you know, I'veoften sat down with Ty and and
I'm like, gosh, we need to,like, get some updated numbers
so we can say, hey, as a cohort,this many 10s of 1000s, well
potentially over 100,000 150,000acres. Do you include bio
farming, farm smart like thewhole group. You know that you

(34:06):
guys as a group have reduced useof chemicals by x like those are
like some really influentialstatistics, especially when you
start thinking about runoff intothe Columbia effects on
downstream communities, likeeffects on our health, of
course, but building soil, Imean, it's really cool to look
at building soil per acre, butwhen you look at building soil

(34:26):
per 100,000 acres, like suddenlyit's, it's a really provocative
argument.
It is, it is a little bitdiscouraging as a producer, when
we are, you know, doing thesepractices, and then we just get
our wheat mixed in witheverybody else's Exactly,
yep, off to the local silo. Butas is Deanna Lewinsky says she's

(34:48):
like, well, at least we'readding some valuable nutrition
to the pool. Well, she's acommodities, I know, and I'm
always like, Tiana, that justcrushes me to hear that like,
but yes, you're. Right? However,I would love to see, and what
I'm working on now, as you know,is, you know, really trying to
find bigger markets where wehave at scale purchasers that

(35:10):
want to make a commitment tosupporting an at scale
regenerative program across theregion, like you guys and and
say, let's, let's do this. Let'scommit to buying this wheat.
Let's commit to buying thissorghum. Let's actually move the
needle. And let's, let's becomepart of the story of
regeneration, instead of anoutside participant, which for

(35:32):
too long, I think a lot of themarket kind of feels like it's
an outside participant, notrealizing that they're actually
driving the manifestation ofwhat happens at the field level.
They just don't think that theydo. It's a radical disconnect.
So if we can mend thatconnection, and we can really
empower the purchasers torealize that they are actually,

(35:55):
you know, contributing to thedestiny at the field level,
that's a really powerfulposition, and they need to step
it up and make sure that they'recontributing. To what needs to
happen, so that we're repairingsoil and and growing better
food. So Well, it'd be
interesting to see with the newTrump administration, with RFK
in there, because he's touting,yeah, doing things like this. So

(36:15):
it'll be interesting to see ifthere's anything to it.
Yeah, exactly. We're it's kindof a watch and wait. I think
right now everybody's likewaiting to see what happens with
this incoming cabinet and all ofthese folks in positions that
will influence policy, andthat's a whole nother
conversation for another day.But you know, when we do need to

(36:36):
get policy and insurance andeverything also aligned with
regenerating our soil, andthat's another big barrier that
we'll have to solve that on thenext podcast, right? Aaron,
yeah,
and that is, that is one issueis the insurance, you know, our
sorghum and not insurable. Andso when we have here like this,
where it freezes out and we getnothing out of it, that's a

(36:56):
little discouraging. I mean, youget crop rotation and all that
kind of stuff. Yeah, at the sametime, if I was plant wheat, I
would have got some money on the
deal. Well, that's the wholething. We do need to, we've got
to get some policy people behindadding these diverse crops to
the insurance crop programs.Some farmers hate the idea.

(37:17):
Other farmers love it. So I'venot figured out exactly what the
best approach is, but I don'twant, I think it's something
we've got to do. I don't
want to have to rely on cropinsurance. But you know when,
when commodity prices aredepressed, like they are this
year and have been, yeah, niceto get something out of it if it
fails Absolutely.
Yeah. Now I agree with you 100%so, Aaron, I hope that this

(37:39):
conversation, it will beinsightful to people. I feel
like we need to have moreconversations with farmers like
you that are just out therelearning every season and trying
to optimize and your farm andhow many, how many total acres
again, are you farming?
Well, I farm about 4000 aboutbut I'm down to about 1500 acres

(38:00):
of actual farm ground that's notin program right now, yeah,
yeah, the rest of it is inconservation programs, whether
it be CRP or sage grousehabitat,
sure, sure. Well, it's beenawesome. So thank you for taking
time out of your day to join usand share your experiences with
us, and for folks who want tomaybe follow up if and ask you

(38:21):
questions, like, how can peopleget a hold of you? Are you on
social media somewhere wherethey can send you a message? Or
what's, what's the best way toget in touch with you?
Oh, anyway, Joan, you can getpeople my phone number. I'm on
social media under O and VBrock, under Facebook.
Yeah, okay, whatever. They canalways message messenger you
that way, or, or
I've given you permission to.Okay, cool. Yeah. Listeners,

(38:42):
if anybody wants to reach outand talk to Owen, I am happy to
pass along his information soyou guys can swap notes and
continue to learn every season,and eventually, we're going to
make this regenerative thing thenew norm so our kids have better
food and a better environment.So thanks for sure. Yeah,
absolutely. So you know, ifyou're if you're out there

(39:03):
listening and you enjoyed thissession, please take a minute to
share it with your friends.Share it with your community.
Definitely leave a review ifyou're on the Apple I on the
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continue doing this great workand supporting the farmers that
are leading the charge, andthank you so much for listening.

(39:24):
Thank you, Johnny for all yourwork. Yeah, you're welcome.
Have a good one. You too. This
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(39:45):
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