August 29, 2024 • 42 mins
Episode Overview: In this inspiring episode, Joni interviews Alejandro Carrillo, a rancher who has transformed the arid Chihuahuan Desert into a thriving regenerative ecosystem. Alejandro shares his journey from an IT career to adopting holistic management techniques at Las Damas Ranch. Learn about the transformative practices that revitalized the land, increased biodiversity, and could potentially offer solutions to pressing global environmental issues.
What You'll Learn:
- How Alejandro transitioned from IT to regenerative ranching.
- The principles of holistic management and their impact on degraded lands.
- Techniques used to combat desertification and improve biodiversity.
- The role of livestock in regenerating ecosystems and enhancing soil health.
- Future prospects for sustainable agriculture and its environmental benefits.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
- Las Damas Ranch - Explore more about Alejandro's work and his ranch.
- Holistic Management International - Learn more about the holistic management practices that influenced Alejandro.
- American Bird Conservancy - Discover how conservation efforts are integrated into ranching practices.
- Nature Conservancy - Information on conservation projects and how they relate to regenerative agriculture.
Connect with Alejandro Carrillo:
Episode Call to Action: If you’re inspired by the potential of regenerative agriculture to heal landscapes and communities, share this episode with friends and family. Don’t forget to rate our podcast on your favorite platform to help spread the word about these transformative practices!
Catch the full story and more details in this transformative episode. Tune in now to see how you can be a part of the regenerative agriculture movement!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Joanne, hello, everyone. You are listening to the regenerative by design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health, climate, economics and food. I am your host. Joni kinware. Join me on this journey as we explore the stories of individuals and organizations who are working to realign our food system with both human health and the health of our planet. Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for joining us on the regenerative by design Podcast. I'm Joni, your host, and today we have Alejandro Carrillo joining us. And Alejandro, thank you for coming. And where are you calling in
(00:35):
from today,
Joni, thanks for inviting me on right now. I'm here in El Paso Texas. Yeah. Thank
you for joining us on on this podcast. We like to unpack so many different discussions, and I lovehaving a wide variety of guests who are all thought leaders in this new regenerative design paradigm, which is not new at all, but it's new to the modern world and are new to our current food system models, and you've really been a thought leader and a huge inspiration for me, Alejandro, and you happen to be the first rancher that we've had on the show. So that's very exciting. Can you tell us a little bit about your ranch? I think that it would be great to take a few minutes and just give
(01:17):
our listeners a little bit of background about you and your experience on Las Thomas ranch and howyou came to be who you are today.
Yeah, as I told you, I'm here in El Paso Texas, which is not too far from the ranch. I just cameback from the ranch yesterday, and the ranch is about four hours going south of the border in the Cerro Chihuahua Mexico. The story Chihuahua actually neighbors Texas and New Mexico and the branches net nested in the Chihuahuan Desert, which is the, actually the largest desert in North America. I think it covers three states in the US on four states in Mexico. And right now, the last few years, our precipitation of the ranch is about 202 20 millimeters per year. It's a seasonal precipitation.
(02:16):
And you know, I'm very familiar with that area, the desert since I was a kid, even though theoriginal ranch from the family was lost by my grandpa, but I went with my dad to for hunting on those on the chibong desert. So I think I really start loving the my love for the outdoors and the land on the desert since I was probably two or three or four or five years old, I did a lot of writing when I was a kid on the round up some branding, and I really loved that. Probably I watched too many Western movies, right? I think we all did not. Yeah, I spent a lot of summers on those
(03:02):
ranches, until my dad had the opportunity to buy a ranch. And right now, our ranch is 30,000 acres,and it has like all kind of landscapes, mountain range and flats, grasslands and also hills. And you know, something that I really love enjoying, because, you know, there was, like, these big round ups with a lot of cowboys and potatoes, and I liked all that stuff. But I really don't think that I really did not like was that we were in a constant drought and a lot of problems, like, every two three years, and a lot of animals actually suffering. And when I was a teenager and I was about to
(03:50):
go to study polish, I asked my dad, well, I probably I should study something related to animalscience or agriculture. And he said, No, study something else. And then it took me to a different journey, because I ended up studying computer science. So I worked for 15 years in in it, in information technology, mostly in the US, the Eastern, North East Coast. And finally, you know, my dad decided that, well, you know, it's time for you to help me. I'm turning 70, and that's when I went back to the branch, and I was very fortunate, because on the stage Chihuahua, we were really,
(04:32):
there were really very good holistic management practitioners, and they became my mentors and alsomy teachers. And that's where we started the journey, about 18 years ago, learning, like, really what I learned from policy management at that time, everything just made sense to me, so I really did not struggle to adopt the knowledge. And then we were, like, the second wave after those guys. And then. Now we have a lot of young people here in research, and not only chivala, but also in the States, interested on making a change, which is pretty positive. I mean, the results I'm seeing that
(05:11):
too, yeah, the result we're getting just incredible. We're turning what used to be like a backgroundwith a lot of encroachment of woody plants and cactus into large, beautiful, perennial grasslands and forests. Let's not forget forest, which is like a broad leaf flowering plant.
(05:38):
You know, it's so interesting to me when I've when I've studied the work that you've done, usuallyvia stories from Ray or Archuleta or from Gabe and brown and Alan Williams. You know, when they're speaking about these case studies. And
one of the things I have always found
(05:59):
remarkable about the case study of your ranch from an outsider's perspective, is that it seems thatthere is now some documentation and some evidence that we can drive small water cycles and we can drive small ecosystems. And 30,000 acres is not exactly what I consider small, but in the scheme of things. It's an isolated area that is a manageable size. And I would love for you to talk about some of the things that you've seen change in the last decade and a half plus, that you've been bringing in these holistic management practices, and really how you see that driving the greater environment
(06:39):
and the things that so many people today assume to be completely out of our control.
The first thing that I can tell you is that there's hope that we can change. I think nature reallyreward you for what you do. I mean, if you work with her, if you work against nature, then he has no mercy. I mean, like it's gonna send us like a pretty tough times, pretty much not being able to produce anything other branches and then full of cactus and poison plants. But on the other side, when you start trying to mimic and respect nature, you start really seeing like beautiful things. I mean, all about life. I mean, some people, it's really not like a rocket science. Some even from the
(07:34):
consumer point of view. Some consumers or people that I know ask me, How do I know if my rancher,farmer, doing a good job. Well, I tell them, just use your use your common sense. I mean, your your your senses. Does it smell good? Does it look good? Does it taste good? Does it feels good? I mean, like, do you see like those grassland full of colors, because, you know, we consider ourselves like a grass farmers, but reality is that once you establish a good stand of grasses, then what's coming next is forbs, which is flowering herbs. And I always relate this back to a verse from the Bible
(08:20):
that says the promise land or milk and honey. And, you know, I thought about that, I say, Oh, howthat? Does this relate to regenerating a place? And it does a lot of sense to me, because grasses by themselves, they cannot fit a honey honey bees you need. I mean, the grasses actually fixed. Help you fix the water cycle to be a more effective rain, more effective rainfall. And as Alan server, you define effective Alan severity. Said, you know, don't tell me how much rain you get. Tell me how much rain you can keep. And that is kind of the first, first thing that we as ranchers are trying to
(09:02):
do, and also, you know, farmers, if I tell you that I'm getting 10 inches per year, but I'm only ifyou're trading 40% that means that I will be always in a constant route, because my Right mine's always like a plated is actually compacted and so on. So we really need one that aggregation on the soil, you know, that air in the soil, so in such a way that we need rains. Then out of those 10 inches, let's try to capture at least eight. And that will start changing everything in our properties, because everything relates to water. So for us, steps is, how can we make more effective
(09:48):
rainfall? And that means that through the biology or the livestock, another one to talk only aboutcows, because, you know, even you can do. Do incredible things with goats, with sheep, with horses, with donkeys, with cows, with all them have all these great tools to actually go and put the manure, the urine, the saliva, they have impact, and all that massage that you do on the land work together with other little, little insects, like dumb beetles and termites. That's why we try not to kill anything other branch, because through all these experiences and observations, we realize that every
(10:36):
creature has a role to play to regenerate the land, even things that we don't like, as ranches like,let's say, weeds. Oh, my God, we hate weeds. We take the first heaters of the branch with that root system, you know, top root system. They drill compacted soils. So we really need the weeds to actually, we need to respect the natural succession of going. I mean, we just cannot go and jump from fairground right to beautiful, tall, native perennial grasses. Yeah, it's, it's
(11:19):
a different way of looking at weeds as like a primary succession species, you know, that comes inand plays a role. And as the system matures, other things compete better, but those weeds play a role in something we don't often understand, you know, but they are hardy. It's incredible. And they they can live when so many other things can't,
(11:42):
which is, yeah, investment, the way we actually, if we can use the word fight or prevent or learnfrom getting a lot of wheat or encroachment of woody plants. I mean woody plant, you just put a name there, right? Depending on your context, it could be Mesquite, it could be Juniper, and so on. Well, is by actually favoring while fixing the water cycle, because a lot of these plants, for example, the woody encroachment of plants like mesquite or Juniper, they love compacted soils. No interesting. Publish the grasses and the glasses start actually feeding the microbiology, which
(12:29):
actually is going to retain more water because of the aggregation. Then nature at that point, Naturesays you don't need me anymore. You don't need me to send you these other plants. You already established a good stand of grasslands, and then the problem just goes away. And you really never put any chemicals or mechanically remove that is that one really key word here is to be patient. And because, you know, for example, a lot of people says, Oh, if I let my weed just to spray it and put seeds, I'm gonna have more weeds. I mean, I have seen parcel in my ranch where we have like a pool.
(13:09):
I mean, like that, everything is just like a pig weed, like everything, Oh, yeah. And then once Iestablish the grasses there, I don't really see a single pig weed, even if it rains, alive, because actually replace that. Now, what I'm expecting about after the grasses, more for, yeah, I just really
(13:32):
Yeah, go for our listeners, Alejandro, who are not familiar with Forbes. Um, I mean, Forbes arethose flowering plants, like when you go on a hike, and you're going through, you know, more of an intact natural environment, you'll see a blend of species, different families of plants, that all come together to create an ecosystem as we know it. And in meadows, you always see not just grasses, but you see a variety of things. And depending on where you are, they're different, but they're the flowering plants that we see. I know, I know what I'm used to seeing in my area, but I'm a lot
(14:05):
further north, near the Canadian border. But you know, I think it's so important for people to torealize that it's that biodiversity of all those different families of plants that come together and their root exudates are all very different their root structures, the phytonutrients that they drop into the soil and drive the microbiome. I mean, there's so many different things that happen here. And one of the things that I remember walking away from a discussion where they spoke about your work was that there were Forbes that were considered to be extinct from the area that came back
(14:40):
after so many years of your work, and that that was something that was a big surprise to manypeople, from biologists to ranchers and just general community members. Could you talk about that? I've always wanted to hear more about that part. I'm a botanist by training originally, so I get really excited. About discovering a plant that was thought to be no longer, you know, viable in a certain area, yeah,
(15:07):
and it could be, I mean, the seeds are there. I mean, even if we don't have the seeds on the ground,if you create the right conditions of moisture, you know, aggregation and things like that, then nature is going to find a way to put the seed there, like the bird, a wildlife, livestock, wind, water. I mean, nature has many ways to say, Oh, I find an ideal condition for to grow. Then I'm going to put a seed there, or I'm going to make the seed to germinate. And what I know, historically, we talked a lot about grasslands, but historically, in most all the grasslands in
(15:53):
North America were four plants. Do you know that a four can actually put carbon deeper than thangrasses. I mean, if we really want to convert not what is why we don't have more forbs? That is the question, right? I think there's two reasons. One reason is we have the water cycle broken because a forb really needs either needs a lot of rain, which is very difficult. It is not dependent on us, but to some degree. But also, if we established grasslands that thick, stands for grasslands, they are going to fix the water cycle, and then you're going to see the forbs in between the grasslands.
(16:33):
Now, one of the problem we have is that we always work in one of the challenges where we're workingonly for 10 to 20 different grasses. I mean, we have one advantage at our rank. We've been working with the bird conservancy organizations like American bird Conservancy, bird Conservancy, Rockies, The Nature Conservancy and so on. And they do the transects to count the birds. I mean, migratory birds coming from southern Canada, northern us, all the way to the chivalan district. It's incredible. Yeah, when they started in my ranch, they counted like 2025, different grasses. The last
(17:15):
count, they counted more than 90. I mean, it just incredible, the diversity, wow. Yeah, wow. That'sa dramatic improvement in biodiversity. So we ranchers, we need to strive to get, not only for our management, not only to promote and preserve like 20 different grasses. What kind of management we need to actually go to 100 200 different grasses and 200 different forbs. Now, the other thing that is really affecting us having more diversity, is that we were taught to actually try to graze on a vegetative stage for good, for the cow and blah blah. But now we change the way we raise in such a
(18:03):
way that we try to raise intensively, but also we provide, like a long rest period, at least a year,so we let all the plants to express themselves. And the next time we raise, the plants already recover, and they already put a seat. And then even, for example, I'm telling you that my context is like 910, inches, right in Kansas, I got a friend who actually his context is like 4050, inches. And he said, Well, you know, Alex, I'm gonna try what you do in my place. I'm gonna set a set aside, a small plot, and he found, with a long spirit, bringing new Forbes, that means that he was
(18:49):
overgrazing the force that were trying to come up.
Interesting, yeah, that's That's so great. I think that's one of the the coolest things about theseregenerative communities is how much sharing of knowledge and experience there is, from season to season, amongst ranchers and farmers alike to swap notes and accelerate this learning and to discover those kind of things that maybe he may not have even thought about without having a conversation with you. It's such a wonderful thing. And how does this plant diversity affect the
(19:23):
health of the cattle? Well, yeah, not only the health of cattle, but our health, right? Because, youknow, we know now that, yes, those fiber chemicals are contained on the plants to a lesser degree, but more diversity they will contain on the meat. So that's why I want, really, to go beyond the grass fed meat, meat. I don't know how I could call this, but let's say that is more like a native perennial plant, fate,
(19:58):
poly species. Raised be a little too nerdy for most people, but I there's got to be a cool word outthere somewhere. Yeah,
I want, I want us to be beyond the grass Bay, because, you know, grass implies that they're onlyeating grass, when in reality, cows on the range, on a good management with multiple species, and they're eating probably up to 100 different plants, and not all the plants are grasses, are forbs, are some of the butches and things like that. So it does, probably it does benefit the cattle, because cattle and livestock are very selective. And imagine that every animal has its own specific needs, as we as humans as well. And they, if we allow, they allow the animals to select, they will
(20:53):
be pretty healthy, because they say, oh, I need this kind of mineral it is. They are like the bestchemist, chemistry. Also, there are out there, what I will actually get into. They
follow their gut too, like I, we're humans, tend not to a lot of the time, but
yeah, and we, and we try to actually make everything like the same, but definitely it's way morecomplex than we thought, like when Carolina corral were trying to guess, you know, what they all need, but reality is that they all need different things. That's what really they are more prone to get sick. And also, you know, that will reflect into the meat, and also into the flavor of the meat. And is, you can see this like a wine, you know, like a tasting wine. Where is it? Terrar or the wine? This is the same for the meat. I mean, is the meat cannot be, cannot taste the same as a meat
(21:50):
that was wrong, let's say in Washington state, or right, because of the plants. You know? Yeah,different combination of plants, different phylogenetics, so it's really nice and quite interesting. Yeah,
that's always a fun topic. Is just terrar in general, because I feel like most folks in the UnitedStates, they only think of that as being isolated to wine or very premium experiences. But in reality, even things that our modern system has commoditized still have tremendous potential for terroir, even if it's something like wheat or something like, you know, a beef there, if we allow it to and we can understand and segregate so that we can isolate those experiences, rather than just that kind of moss, mass, aggregated experience that most people get with meat. Meat is just meat.
(22:49):
They don't know where it came from, they don't know if it's blended, they don't know what it'seaten. Chances are it's eaten a lot of GMO corn, and in that way, it all tastes consistent. And I tell you when you do when you do try things that are differentiated, again, whether that be barley or wheat or cattle or or even eggs, you start to experience a very different eating experience. And you don't need all the salt and the fat and the sugar, because the flavor is usually much more distinctive, and that is like a whole culinary experience in itself. Do you guys have any chefs that
(23:24):
work with, specifically with your cattle and AND, OR, like a specialized market, or has,
has that been developed yet? In New Mexico, we are a bit behind in the US in terms of educationregarding the food, but it's really there. I mean, we have quite a few branches. Some farmers are actually already delivering a production of my production to some cities and some retailers in Mexico. It's growing. Yeah, we are more aware, and we may be more aware, because we're actually facing all kind of issues, you know, health issues because of the food we eat. Yeah, yeah, there's more than food, but the food is, I mean, at the point where we consider food as a medicine, I think
(24:15):
everything changes, you know, like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna pull a little bit more investment,yeah, because it's a different value system.
If
you see, like, Oh my God, he's gonna be he's gonna keep me healthy, that is great. Yeah, exactly.That's
a paradigm shift that I think is catching on more and more all the time. You know, one of the thingsI've always wanted to ask you, Alejandro, is, like, with your education around it and computer systems has that changed the way that you look at systems management in general, like you know, did that prime you to be a little bit more curious about holistic management systems and more integrated perspective? Um. Um, because most the ranchers I grew up with cattle and, um, in Western Oregon and and I loved the the people we worked with. They were wonderful people, but it was literally very
(25:10):
reductionistic. It was just on the cattle. We didn't pay attention to the environment all that much,except for making sure that they weren't getting weeds that were potentially harmful. Um, but we never thought about making sure that they had biodiversity that promoted their health. I really have always wondered if your your experience working outside of ranching and then coming back really helped to drive a different type of curiosity and a different systems thinking that has helped you, you know, implement what you've implemented that lost Thomas,
(25:43):
it's been helping definitely. But I also want to tell you that I have met a lot of mostly youngpeople are very curious. I think they are more curious than my generation. I can tell you that because I think they have access to information that we did not so we were really depending on what universities were teaching us, what the library you can get out of it. And now there are so I mean, even when I meet someone, they already know everything about me, like, Oh my God. Like, Oh okay, or you said this, why you said that? And I say, Oh my god. So no, no, yeah, that's
(26:24):
a totally crazy thing. I'm
very hopeful about the new generations coming on board, because they have a lot of knowledge. Theyhave a lot of curiosity as well, regardless of what, what was your background. I mean, it really helped me, obviously, because I love to do analysis and then also try to get into the root of something that is happening, for example, other branch, right? Like we start seeing Mesquite, small, midsize and big, big Mesquite, the branches were falling, falling down, and we were wondering how many mesquites are. Were now encroached the other way by the grasses. They start getting weakened.
(27:14):
And now we finally realized that it was like a beetle, not a damn beetle, but a beetle running thebranches. Then the branches were also disappearing, like you couldn't find the branches, or there were the termites working the branches and putting into the soil. And then one of the questions you you have is, if a mosquito is a legume, what is replacing the mosquito put the nitrogen into the soil? Well, we realize that the termites have the richest nitrogen fix bacteria of all the insects. So see how, really I did not know that, then, just from one thing to the other in a very natural
(27:56):
way, you know, um, you always. Nature is always with you, just trying to help you go to some morebeautiful landscape
that is really cool. Um, you know, I have never thought about termites in that, in that way, butyeah, it's I also I hadn't thought about the fact that mesquite was a legume for a long time. And you know what that represents for the ecosystem as you're shifting your system. You know, legumes have, like a, you know, great positive effect, but sometimes in excess can actually harm soil metabolism, like microbiome growth. I That's something I've recently kind of had an awakening to and you and I both heard Dr Christine Jones at Ty Meyer's place in Washington State this summer, and her
(28:48):
talking about the effects of excessive nitrogen on soil ecosystems. And I honestly went on a deepdive rabbit hole after that, because I had never appreciated it in the way that she presented it during that talk that she gave to us that morning. Was that new to you? Like i Everyone I know says that they learn something new from her every time they hear her, but like, that was a fantastic conversation, and I'm sure you brought back a lot to the ranch after after that, what kind of things, what kind of things have you implemented since then?
(29:24):
Well, I think she confirmed a lot of things that we were doing as well. Yeah, know about the forbsand the benefits of the forb for example, if you really want cows to produce milk and put some fat, then you need to rely on forbs, because every time we measure the breaks on using a refractometer to measure the, let's say the sugars on the plants, like it's pretty common, like in grapes or even agave, but you can measure that on the grasses. And every time we do that with, let's say, a rancher or something, weeds and forbs always. Beat glasses. I mean, it just, they are just full of energy
(30:04):
and sugars. And that's what you really need, actually, to put fat and produce more milk from fromyour from your animals,
right? Yeah, that's it's always neat when you have confirmation from an outside source that you'relike, maybe your hunches or your observations and this combination of things you've learned from your mentors and teachers like you see it through a new light, especially when talking to somebody who's got the rigorous scientific background that Dr Christine Jones says, I found that to be really powerful, yeah,
(30:37):
when Gabe Brown went down last time he went down to branch. And, I mean, you can see these very goodpeople are really incredible observers. My mentor in Chihuahua, Jesus Almeida, he's been observer. I mean, like you're gonna be ready for them, otherwise they will be asking questions that you better get ready for those to answer those questions. Yeah, when Gabe Brown went down, is it he told me, Alex, I don't really see many legumes in your system, even on well established grasslands, you know where the legumes are in my ranch where there's some degradation, interesting? Yeah, it's like
(31:18):
nature saying, no, let's, let's put more nitrogen here, but once it does, some herbs areestablished. You don't see a single legume, yeah, fascinating.
I mean, you know, again, we've under appreciated just free nitrogen fixing bacteriums that live inintact soil microbiomes. So much focus it has been, you know, just solely looking at the root nodule living ones, and I think that that's kind of given everybody a bit of a skewed perspective. And again, it makes us kind of view legumes and their role in regenerative systems in a new light, honestly, um, and that's something that's, it's kind of a challenging concept, honestly, it's, it's very contrary to what I learned when I was getting my degree in botany and understanding the role of
(32:08):
of nitrogen fixing bacteria. So, um, and the other thing that that just made me think of is, youknow, when I often think about, really, the power of regenerative thinking and regenerative design, it's not what you know, it's literally how, how well of a question asker you are that really determines the the velocity of that regenerative process. Like everyone I know, who's really you know, makes me think the most, it's because they ask such good questions. And asking great questions is is at the root of everything. Honestly, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know
(32:47):
honestly in this field, I think so
we're always learning, you know, nature's almost like infinite it is. I think what's going in isvery, very important, and the price we had made in the state of Chihuahua, because I think the city of Chihuahua has the most region ranchers in any other state in any part of the world. I can tell you that. I mean, it just incredible. But I feel all things that were really fundamental. There is the openness of people to chair and also that community, you know, because you're talking about different things, you know, like more conventional rapture, things are more under our control. And
(33:33):
then you we are social creatures, and we need to chair. So it's always nice to grab the phone andthen talk to someone and then discuss that topic, or just go and visit this ranch the branch is so we're so blessed to have that bridging community, and those communities are being built this state at a fast pace. When I was recently in Montana, it's amazing, and I was pretty surprised that in a very small town called ikalaka, which, oh, yeah, I didn't even know where I was going, but
(34:07):
it's way out there, but
it's incredible. I mean, there were more than 100 people there, just so excited to see some peopledoing great things there. But yeah, there's a
lot happening in Montana. Really exciting.
I was very impressed about see, and it could be similar to Chihuahua, because Chihuahua used to belike a pristine, beautiful fall grasses, where they use, where this the first Spanish explorers using capaderas, you know, to cover your boots not to get wet. There were not even any thorns. So, because the grasses were so tall as as to reach your saddle, and there were, like, completely different contexts, you know, ecosystems, yeah, yeah.
(35:00):
Well, this is a really important lesson for you know, really the society's response todesertification? Yes, I think so many people assume that there's nothing we can do about it, and there's nothing we can do to prevent it, and there's nothing we can do to remove like mitigate it. And these are powerful examples of how by working with nature, asking better questions, bringing new sets of tools together, that we actually can reestablish a healthy and holistic relationship with nature that can sustain life and can sustain biology and nature. Because desertification is a scary
(35:38):
thing, and these changes in weather patterns, and these changes in water cycles are prettyterrifying, and I think a lot of people get wrapped up in how scary they are, but this is a very hopeful story that I know my husband, when he heard Gabe and Ellen talk about your example once, he still talks about it today, that his takeaways where that we can actually restore natural cycles, and that we can, we can use things like, like cattle to get there. Because, you know, you kind of grew up in this tug of war place, especially United States, where people say, Oh, cattle are like
(36:16):
the, you know, causing climate change and, and, but it's not within the context of nature. It'slike, you know, there's so much disconnect. So this, to me, this is a super hopeful story that there's a lot we can do. And imagine if this can be, you know, learned from and replicated around the world. That's it's very transformational.
(36:36):
Why it's so important, what something Alan Williams mentioned often about the ecological historicalperspective. Because, as you said, you know, like, oh, well, this is a desert. And we even go sometimes to the extreme or saying, Oh, don't touch the desert because we're empty, bypass and things like that. But it's just nature trying to pay themselves, you know, with those crust and all that so and then there's the other approach of saying, Well, this rewild but I think rewilding is not going to work. I mean, we are rewilding the ranch. That's why we got full support from these
(37:18):
conservation organizations, because we have become like a refuge for all the migratory birds. Now werecently stole, well, they help us install bird construct Rockies, a models tracking station. Now I was so happy for that, because now I can see the birds coming from Montana to my ranch, and I see, I see a lot of birds going that path to the ranch. So that really confirms to me that what we're doing is not only good for consumers, is not only good for ranchers, is good for rewilding the places, for protecting all the endangered, unlisted species that are out there. So I can, I can tell people, you
(38:05):
know, all what we're doing is is good for life period, right? Yeah, it's
putting life and biology back into the center of the equation. And that doesn't always mean thathumans can't be part of that. And I think that that's a really important thing we need to talk about more in these modern dialog context. You know that rewilding assumes that nature's always best with eliminating a species that being humans. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of questions that need to be asked there, because we're also part of nature. That assumes that humans aren't part of nature. And I think we just need to rethink our role in nature, just like you look at a beaver, and
(38:47):
the role that a beaver plays in a natural system is crazy and but beavers manipulate theirenvironment, but they do it with intention. And there's, there's just a very different approach, um, can be, can be kind of good and bad at times, honestly, and no offense to the beavers of the world. But after living in Alaska, I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. Um, but I just think there's a lot we can learn about re coming to terms with our role as a species and being part of an ecosystem, rather than always viewing it as humans versus nature, which, like you said, we will never win something
(39:22):
similar, like with the let's put now the cows. You know, the livestock. Like a lot of problems comewhen we see cows as not part of nature, and we're trying to steal the cows. I mean, we, if we have, we have a huge benefit of where we ran, you know, because the call was for grasslands. I mean, it's a bit more challenging for me to go and, I mean, we can do a good job on the dry tropics, but it wasn't the call for for grazers. But where we are, we have that benefit of saying, you know, these are grasslands. And then, or this used to be grasslands, and then we can actually use livestock to
(40:06):
restore, you know, and thrive on the committees. That's a beautiful thing.
Well, thank you so much, Alejandro. And you know, as we wrap up, I mean is there, are there anyfinal things you'd like to share with the audience? And then, of course, will want to direct people to where they can learn more about you. They you know, places on on social media or websites or places where they can follow your work and interact with you.
(40:33):
Yeah, we are in Facebook and LinkedIn under my name, Alejandro Carillo, and then we're also onInstagram under the branch, and we have our website, desert grasslands.com desert grasslands.com Great.
(40:55):
Well, we'll make sure we put those in the show notes for everybody. And you know, honestly, this isa really incredible message of hope. I think I love it. Growing up in rural Oregon, there was always been so much turf war between ranching and the environment and food system, and it's always kind of been a very high tension point. And, you know, growing up in a rural community that was rooted in agriculture. It's, you know, I've always, like, really been conflicted in how to bring that all back together through a holistic lens. And I just think your work is so exemplary. So thanks for taking a
(41:31):
moment to share it with us. I'm so thrilled. And for everybody who's listening, please take a momentto rate this podcast if you're listening to it on a platform that allows for rating and share it with your friends and family and community so that we can get these stories of hope and regeneration out into the world. I feel like people are needing more messages of positivity and in a way where we can live with nature in a nice, balanced way. So please take a moment to share this with your community and spread the word. And thank you so much for joining Alejandro. Thank you for taking
(42:05):
time out of your day, and we'll see you all next time. Thanks for having me here.
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Joanne, hello, everyone. You are listening to the regenerative by design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health, climate, economics and food. I am your host. Joni kinware. Join me on this journey as we explore the stories of individuals and organizations who are working to realign our food system with both human health and the health of our planet. Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for joining us on the regenerative by design Podcast. I'm Joni, your host, and today we have Alejandro Carrillo joining us. And Alejandro, thank you for coming. And where are you calling in
(00:35):
from today,
Joni, thanks for inviting me on right now. I'm here in El Paso Texas. Yeah. Thank
you for joining us on on this podcast. We like to unpack so many different discussions, and I lovehaving a wide variety of guests who are all thought leaders in this new regenerative design paradigm, which is not new at all, but it's new to the modern world and are new to our current food system models, and you've really been a thought leader and a huge inspiration for me, Alejandro, and you happen to be the first rancher that we've had on the show. So that's very exciting. Can you tell us a little bit about your ranch? I think that it would be great to take a few minutes and just give
(01:17):
our listeners a little bit of background about you and your experience on Las Thomas ranch and howyou came to be who you are today.
Yeah, as I told you, I'm here in El Paso Texas, which is not too far from the ranch. I just cameback from the ranch yesterday, and the ranch is about four hours going south of the border in the Cerro Chihuahua Mexico. The story Chihuahua actually neighbors Texas and New Mexico and the branches net nested in the Chihuahuan Desert, which is the, actually the largest desert in North America. I think it covers three states in the US on four states in Mexico. And right now, the last few years, our precipitation of the ranch is about 202 20 millimeters per year. It's a seasonal precipitation.
(02:16):
And you know, I'm very familiar with that area, the desert since I was a kid, even though theoriginal ranch from the family was lost by my grandpa, but I went with my dad to for hunting on those on the chibong desert. So I think I really start loving the my love for the outdoors and the land on the desert since I was probably two or three or four or five years old, I did a lot of writing when I was a kid on the round up some branding, and I really loved that. Probably I watched too many Western movies, right? I think we all did not. Yeah, I spent a lot of summers on those
(03:02):
ranches, until my dad had the opportunity to buy a ranch. And right now, our ranch is 30,000 acres,and it has like all kind of landscapes, mountain range and flats, grasslands and also hills. And you know, something that I really love enjoying, because, you know, there was, like, these big round ups with a lot of cowboys and potatoes, and I liked all that stuff. But I really don't think that I really did not like was that we were in a constant drought and a lot of problems, like, every two three years, and a lot of animals actually suffering. And when I was a teenager and I was about to
(03:50):
go to study polish, I asked my dad, well, I probably I should study something related to animalscience or agriculture. And he said, No, study something else. And then it took me to a different journey, because I ended up studying computer science. So I worked for 15 years in in it, in information technology, mostly in the US, the Eastern, North East Coast. And finally, you know, my dad decided that, well, you know, it's time for you to help me. I'm turning 70, and that's when I went back to the branch, and I was very fortunate, because on the stage Chihuahua, we were really,
(04:32):
there were really very good holistic management practitioners, and they became my mentors and alsomy teachers. And that's where we started the journey, about 18 years ago, learning, like, really what I learned from policy management at that time, everything just made sense to me, so I really did not struggle to adopt the knowledge. And then we were, like, the second wave after those guys. And then. Now we have a lot of young people here in research, and not only chivala, but also in the States, interested on making a change, which is pretty positive. I mean, the results I'm seeing that
(05:11):
too, yeah, the result we're getting just incredible. We're turning what used to be like a backgroundwith a lot of encroachment of woody plants and cactus into large, beautiful, perennial grasslands and forests. Let's not forget forest, which is like a broad leaf flowering plant.
(05:38):
You know, it's so interesting to me when I've when I've studied the work that you've done, usuallyvia stories from Ray or Archuleta or from Gabe and brown and Alan Williams. You know, when they're speaking about these case studies. And
one of the things I have always found
(05:59):
remarkable about the case study of your ranch from an outsider's perspective, is that it seems thatthere is now some documentation and some evidence that we can drive small water cycles and we can drive small ecosystems. And 30,000 acres is not exactly what I consider small, but in the scheme of things. It's an isolated area that is a manageable size. And I would love for you to talk about some of the things that you've seen change in the last decade and a half plus, that you've been bringing in these holistic management practices, and really how you see that driving the greater environment
(06:39):
and the things that so many people today assume to be completely out of our control.
The first thing that I can tell you is that there's hope that we can change. I think nature reallyreward you for what you do. I mean, if you work with her, if you work against nature, then he has no mercy. I mean, like it's gonna send us like a pretty tough times, pretty much not being able to produce anything other branches and then full of cactus and poison plants. But on the other side, when you start trying to mimic and respect nature, you start really seeing like beautiful things. I mean, all about life. I mean, some people, it's really not like a rocket science. Some even from the
(07:34):
consumer point of view. Some consumers or people that I know ask me, How do I know if my rancher,farmer, doing a good job. Well, I tell them, just use your use your common sense. I mean, your your your senses. Does it smell good? Does it look good? Does it taste good? Does it feels good? I mean, like, do you see like those grassland full of colors, because, you know, we consider ourselves like a grass farmers, but reality is that once you establish a good stand of grasses, then what's coming next is forbs, which is flowering herbs. And I always relate this back to a verse from the Bible
(08:20):
that says the promise land or milk and honey. And, you know, I thought about that, I say, Oh, howthat? Does this relate to regenerating a place? And it does a lot of sense to me, because grasses by themselves, they cannot fit a honey honey bees you need. I mean, the grasses actually fixed. Help you fix the water cycle to be a more effective rain, more effective rainfall. And as Alan server, you define effective Alan severity. Said, you know, don't tell me how much rain you get. Tell me how much rain you can keep. And that is kind of the first, first thing that we as ranchers are trying to
(09:02):
do, and also, you know, farmers, if I tell you that I'm getting 10 inches per year, but I'm only ifyou're trading 40% that means that I will be always in a constant route, because my Right mine's always like a plated is actually compacted and so on. So we really need one that aggregation on the soil, you know, that air in the soil, so in such a way that we need rains. Then out of those 10 inches, let's try to capture at least eight. And that will start changing everything in our properties, because everything relates to water. So for us, steps is, how can we make more effective
(09:48):
rainfall? And that means that through the biology or the livestock, another one to talk only aboutcows, because, you know, even you can do. Do incredible things with goats, with sheep, with horses, with donkeys, with cows, with all them have all these great tools to actually go and put the manure, the urine, the saliva, they have impact, and all that massage that you do on the land work together with other little, little insects, like dumb beetles and termites. That's why we try not to kill anything other branch, because through all these experiences and observations, we realize that every
(10:36):
creature has a role to play to regenerate the land, even things that we don't like, as ranches like,let's say, weeds. Oh, my God, we hate weeds. We take the first heaters of the branch with that root system, you know, top root system. They drill compacted soils. So we really need the weeds to actually, we need to respect the natural succession of going. I mean, we just cannot go and jump from fairground right to beautiful, tall, native perennial grasses. Yeah, it's, it's
(11:19):
a different way of looking at weeds as like a primary succession species, you know, that comes inand plays a role. And as the system matures, other things compete better, but those weeds play a role in something we don't often understand, you know, but they are hardy. It's incredible. And they they can live when so many other things can't,
(11:42):
which is, yeah, investment, the way we actually, if we can use the word fight or prevent or learnfrom getting a lot of wheat or encroachment of woody plants. I mean woody plant, you just put a name there, right? Depending on your context, it could be Mesquite, it could be Juniper, and so on. Well, is by actually favoring while fixing the water cycle, because a lot of these plants, for example, the woody encroachment of plants like mesquite or Juniper, they love compacted soils. No interesting. Publish the grasses and the glasses start actually feeding the microbiology, which
(12:29):
actually is going to retain more water because of the aggregation. Then nature at that point, Naturesays you don't need me anymore. You don't need me to send you these other plants. You already established a good stand of grasslands, and then the problem just goes away. And you really never put any chemicals or mechanically remove that is that one really key word here is to be patient. And because, you know, for example, a lot of people says, Oh, if I let my weed just to spray it and put seeds, I'm gonna have more weeds. I mean, I have seen parcel in my ranch where we have like a pool.
(13:09):
I mean, like that, everything is just like a pig weed, like everything, Oh, yeah. And then once Iestablish the grasses there, I don't really see a single pig weed, even if it rains, alive, because actually replace that. Now, what I'm expecting about after the grasses, more for, yeah, I just really
(13:32):
Yeah, go for our listeners, Alejandro, who are not familiar with Forbes. Um, I mean, Forbes arethose flowering plants, like when you go on a hike, and you're going through, you know, more of an intact natural environment, you'll see a blend of species, different families of plants, that all come together to create an ecosystem as we know it. And in meadows, you always see not just grasses, but you see a variety of things. And depending on where you are, they're different, but they're the flowering plants that we see. I know, I know what I'm used to seeing in my area, but I'm a lot
(14:05):
further north, near the Canadian border. But you know, I think it's so important for people to torealize that it's that biodiversity of all those different families of plants that come together and their root exudates are all very different their root structures, the phytonutrients that they drop into the soil and drive the microbiome. I mean, there's so many different things that happen here. And one of the things that I remember walking away from a discussion where they spoke about your work was that there were Forbes that were considered to be extinct from the area that came back
(14:40):
after so many years of your work, and that that was something that was a big surprise to manypeople, from biologists to ranchers and just general community members. Could you talk about that? I've always wanted to hear more about that part. I'm a botanist by training originally, so I get really excited. About discovering a plant that was thought to be no longer, you know, viable in a certain area, yeah,
(15:07):
and it could be, I mean, the seeds are there. I mean, even if we don't have the seeds on the ground,if you create the right conditions of moisture, you know, aggregation and things like that, then nature is going to find a way to put the seed there, like the bird, a wildlife, livestock, wind, water. I mean, nature has many ways to say, Oh, I find an ideal condition for to grow. Then I'm going to put a seed there, or I'm going to make the seed to germinate. And what I know, historically, we talked a lot about grasslands, but historically, in most all the grasslands in
(15:53):
North America were four plants. Do you know that a four can actually put carbon deeper than thangrasses. I mean, if we really want to convert not what is why we don't have more forbs? That is the question, right? I think there's two reasons. One reason is we have the water cycle broken because a forb really needs either needs a lot of rain, which is very difficult. It is not dependent on us, but to some degree. But also, if we established grasslands that thick, stands for grasslands, they are going to fix the water cycle, and then you're going to see the forbs in between the grasslands.
(16:33):
Now, one of the problem we have is that we always work in one of the challenges where we're workingonly for 10 to 20 different grasses. I mean, we have one advantage at our rank. We've been working with the bird conservancy organizations like American bird Conservancy, bird Conservancy, Rockies, The Nature Conservancy and so on. And they do the transects to count the birds. I mean, migratory birds coming from southern Canada, northern us, all the way to the chivalan district. It's incredible. Yeah, when they started in my ranch, they counted like 2025, different grasses. The last
(17:15):
count, they counted more than 90. I mean, it just incredible, the diversity, wow. Yeah, wow. That'sa dramatic improvement in biodiversity. So we ranchers, we need to strive to get, not only for our management, not only to promote and preserve like 20 different grasses. What kind of management we need to actually go to 100 200 different grasses and 200 different forbs. Now, the other thing that is really affecting us having more diversity, is that we were taught to actually try to graze on a vegetative stage for good, for the cow and blah blah. But now we change the way we raise in such a
(18:03):
way that we try to raise intensively, but also we provide, like a long rest period, at least a year,so we let all the plants to express themselves. And the next time we raise, the plants already recover, and they already put a seat. And then even, for example, I'm telling you that my context is like 910, inches, right in Kansas, I got a friend who actually his context is like 4050, inches. And he said, Well, you know, Alex, I'm gonna try what you do in my place. I'm gonna set a set aside, a small plot, and he found, with a long spirit, bringing new Forbes, that means that he was
(18:49):
overgrazing the force that were trying to come up.
Interesting, yeah, that's That's so great. I think that's one of the the coolest things about theseregenerative communities is how much sharing of knowledge and experience there is, from season to season, amongst ranchers and farmers alike to swap notes and accelerate this learning and to discover those kind of things that maybe he may not have even thought about without having a conversation with you. It's such a wonderful thing. And how does this plant diversity affect the
(19:23):
health of the cattle? Well, yeah, not only the health of cattle, but our health, right? Because, youknow, we know now that, yes, those fiber chemicals are contained on the plants to a lesser degree, but more diversity they will contain on the meat. So that's why I want, really, to go beyond the grass fed meat, meat. I don't know how I could call this, but let's say that is more like a native perennial plant, fate,
(19:58):
poly species. Raised be a little too nerdy for most people, but I there's got to be a cool word outthere somewhere. Yeah,
I want, I want us to be beyond the grass Bay, because, you know, grass implies that they're onlyeating grass, when in reality, cows on the range, on a good management with multiple species, and they're eating probably up to 100 different plants, and not all the plants are grasses, are forbs, are some of the butches and things like that. So it does, probably it does benefit the cattle, because cattle and livestock are very selective. And imagine that every animal has its own specific needs, as we as humans as well. And they, if we allow, they allow the animals to select, they will
(20:53):
be pretty healthy, because they say, oh, I need this kind of mineral it is. They are like the bestchemist, chemistry. Also, there are out there, what I will actually get into. They
follow their gut too, like I, we're humans, tend not to a lot of the time, but
yeah, and we, and we try to actually make everything like the same, but definitely it's way morecomplex than we thought, like when Carolina corral were trying to guess, you know, what they all need, but reality is that they all need different things. That's what really they are more prone to get sick. And also, you know, that will reflect into the meat, and also into the flavor of the meat. And is, you can see this like a wine, you know, like a tasting wine. Where is it? Terrar or the wine? This is the same for the meat. I mean, is the meat cannot be, cannot taste the same as a meat
(21:50):
that was wrong, let's say in Washington state, or right, because of the plants. You know? Yeah,different combination of plants, different phylogenetics, so it's really nice and quite interesting. Yeah,
that's always a fun topic. Is just terrar in general, because I feel like most folks in the UnitedStates, they only think of that as being isolated to wine or very premium experiences. But in reality, even things that our modern system has commoditized still have tremendous potential for terroir, even if it's something like wheat or something like, you know, a beef there, if we allow it to and we can understand and segregate so that we can isolate those experiences, rather than just that kind of moss, mass, aggregated experience that most people get with meat. Meat is just meat.
(22:49):
They don't know where it came from, they don't know if it's blended, they don't know what it'seaten. Chances are it's eaten a lot of GMO corn, and in that way, it all tastes consistent. And I tell you when you do when you do try things that are differentiated, again, whether that be barley or wheat or cattle or or even eggs, you start to experience a very different eating experience. And you don't need all the salt and the fat and the sugar, because the flavor is usually much more distinctive, and that is like a whole culinary experience in itself. Do you guys have any chefs that
(23:24):
work with, specifically with your cattle and AND, OR, like a specialized market, or has,
has that been developed yet? In New Mexico, we are a bit behind in the US in terms of educationregarding the food, but it's really there. I mean, we have quite a few branches. Some farmers are actually already delivering a production of my production to some cities and some retailers in Mexico. It's growing. Yeah, we are more aware, and we may be more aware, because we're actually facing all kind of issues, you know, health issues because of the food we eat. Yeah, yeah, there's more than food, but the food is, I mean, at the point where we consider food as a medicine, I think
(24:15):
everything changes, you know, like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna pull a little bit more investment,yeah, because it's a different value system.
If
you see, like, Oh my God, he's gonna be he's gonna keep me healthy, that is great. Yeah, exactly.That's
a paradigm shift that I think is catching on more and more all the time. You know, one of the thingsI've always wanted to ask you, Alejandro, is, like, with your education around it and computer systems has that changed the way that you look at systems management in general, like you know, did that prime you to be a little bit more curious about holistic management systems and more integrated perspective? Um. Um, because most the ranchers I grew up with cattle and, um, in Western Oregon and and I loved the the people we worked with. They were wonderful people, but it was literally very
(25:10):
reductionistic. It was just on the cattle. We didn't pay attention to the environment all that much,except for making sure that they weren't getting weeds that were potentially harmful. Um, but we never thought about making sure that they had biodiversity that promoted their health. I really have always wondered if your your experience working outside of ranching and then coming back really helped to drive a different type of curiosity and a different systems thinking that has helped you, you know, implement what you've implemented that lost Thomas,
(25:43):
it's been helping definitely. But I also want to tell you that I have met a lot of mostly youngpeople are very curious. I think they are more curious than my generation. I can tell you that because I think they have access to information that we did not so we were really depending on what universities were teaching us, what the library you can get out of it. And now there are so I mean, even when I meet someone, they already know everything about me, like, Oh my God. Like, Oh okay, or you said this, why you said that? And I say, Oh my god. So no, no, yeah, that's
(26:24):
a totally crazy thing. I'm
very hopeful about the new generations coming on board, because they have a lot of knowledge. Theyhave a lot of curiosity as well, regardless of what, what was your background. I mean, it really helped me, obviously, because I love to do analysis and then also try to get into the root of something that is happening, for example, other branch, right? Like we start seeing Mesquite, small, midsize and big, big Mesquite, the branches were falling, falling down, and we were wondering how many mesquites are. Were now encroached the other way by the grasses. They start getting weakened.
(27:14):
And now we finally realized that it was like a beetle, not a damn beetle, but a beetle running thebranches. Then the branches were also disappearing, like you couldn't find the branches, or there were the termites working the branches and putting into the soil. And then one of the questions you you have is, if a mosquito is a legume, what is replacing the mosquito put the nitrogen into the soil? Well, we realize that the termites have the richest nitrogen fix bacteria of all the insects. So see how, really I did not know that, then, just from one thing to the other in a very natural
(27:56):
way, you know, um, you always. Nature is always with you, just trying to help you go to some morebeautiful landscape
that is really cool. Um, you know, I have never thought about termites in that, in that way, butyeah, it's I also I hadn't thought about the fact that mesquite was a legume for a long time. And you know what that represents for the ecosystem as you're shifting your system. You know, legumes have, like a, you know, great positive effect, but sometimes in excess can actually harm soil metabolism, like microbiome growth. I That's something I've recently kind of had an awakening to and you and I both heard Dr Christine Jones at Ty Meyer's place in Washington State this summer, and her
(28:48):
talking about the effects of excessive nitrogen on soil ecosystems. And I honestly went on a deepdive rabbit hole after that, because I had never appreciated it in the way that she presented it during that talk that she gave to us that morning. Was that new to you? Like i Everyone I know says that they learn something new from her every time they hear her, but like, that was a fantastic conversation, and I'm sure you brought back a lot to the ranch after after that, what kind of things, what kind of things have you implemented since then?
(29:24):
Well, I think she confirmed a lot of things that we were doing as well. Yeah, know about the forbsand the benefits of the forb for example, if you really want cows to produce milk and put some fat, then you need to rely on forbs, because every time we measure the breaks on using a refractometer to measure the, let's say the sugars on the plants, like it's pretty common, like in grapes or even agave, but you can measure that on the grasses. And every time we do that with, let's say, a rancher or something, weeds and forbs always. Beat glasses. I mean, it just, they are just full of energy
(30:04):
and sugars. And that's what you really need, actually, to put fat and produce more milk from fromyour from your animals,
right? Yeah, that's it's always neat when you have confirmation from an outside source that you'relike, maybe your hunches or your observations and this combination of things you've learned from your mentors and teachers like you see it through a new light, especially when talking to somebody who's got the rigorous scientific background that Dr Christine Jones says, I found that to be really powerful, yeah,
(30:37):
when Gabe Brown went down last time he went down to branch. And, I mean, you can see these very goodpeople are really incredible observers. My mentor in Chihuahua, Jesus Almeida, he's been observer. I mean, like you're gonna be ready for them, otherwise they will be asking questions that you better get ready for those to answer those questions. Yeah, when Gabe Brown went down, is it he told me, Alex, I don't really see many legumes in your system, even on well established grasslands, you know where the legumes are in my ranch where there's some degradation, interesting? Yeah, it's like
(31:18):
nature saying, no, let's, let's put more nitrogen here, but once it does, some herbs areestablished. You don't see a single legume, yeah, fascinating.
I mean, you know, again, we've under appreciated just free nitrogen fixing bacteriums that live inintact soil microbiomes. So much focus it has been, you know, just solely looking at the root nodule living ones, and I think that that's kind of given everybody a bit of a skewed perspective. And again, it makes us kind of view legumes and their role in regenerative systems in a new light, honestly, um, and that's something that's, it's kind of a challenging concept, honestly, it's, it's very contrary to what I learned when I was getting my degree in botany and understanding the role of
(32:08):
of nitrogen fixing bacteria. So, um, and the other thing that that just made me think of is, youknow, when I often think about, really, the power of regenerative thinking and regenerative design, it's not what you know, it's literally how, how well of a question asker you are that really determines the the velocity of that regenerative process. Like everyone I know, who's really you know, makes me think the most, it's because they ask such good questions. And asking great questions is is at the root of everything. Honestly, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know
(32:47):
honestly in this field, I think so
we're always learning, you know, nature's almost like infinite it is. I think what's going in isvery, very important, and the price we had made in the state of Chihuahua, because I think the city of Chihuahua has the most region ranchers in any other state in any part of the world. I can tell you that. I mean, it just incredible. But I feel all things that were really fundamental. There is the openness of people to chair and also that community, you know, because you're talking about different things, you know, like more conventional rapture, things are more under our control. And
(33:33):
then you we are social creatures, and we need to chair. So it's always nice to grab the phone andthen talk to someone and then discuss that topic, or just go and visit this ranch the branch is so we're so blessed to have that bridging community, and those communities are being built this state at a fast pace. When I was recently in Montana, it's amazing, and I was pretty surprised that in a very small town called ikalaka, which, oh, yeah, I didn't even know where I was going, but
(34:07):
it's way out there, but
it's incredible. I mean, there were more than 100 people there, just so excited to see some peopledoing great things there. But yeah, there's a
lot happening in Montana. Really exciting.
I was very impressed about see, and it could be similar to Chihuahua, because Chihuahua used to belike a pristine, beautiful fall grasses, where they use, where this the first Spanish explorers using capaderas, you know, to cover your boots not to get wet. There were not even any thorns. So, because the grasses were so tall as as to reach your saddle, and there were, like, completely different contexts, you know, ecosystems, yeah, yeah.
(35:00):
Well, this is a really important lesson for you know, really the society's response todesertification? Yes, I think so many people assume that there's nothing we can do about it, and there's nothing we can do to prevent it, and there's nothing we can do to remove like mitigate it. And these are powerful examples of how by working with nature, asking better questions, bringing new sets of tools together, that we actually can reestablish a healthy and holistic relationship with nature that can sustain life and can sustain biology and nature. Because desertification is a scary
(35:38):
thing, and these changes in weather patterns, and these changes in water cycles are prettyterrifying, and I think a lot of people get wrapped up in how scary they are, but this is a very hopeful story that I know my husband, when he heard Gabe and Ellen talk about your example once, he still talks about it today, that his takeaways where that we can actually restore natural cycles, and that we can, we can use things like, like cattle to get there. Because, you know, you kind of grew up in this tug of war place, especially United States, where people say, Oh, cattle are like
(36:16):
the, you know, causing climate change and, and, but it's not within the context of nature. It'slike, you know, there's so much disconnect. So this, to me, this is a super hopeful story that there's a lot we can do. And imagine if this can be, you know, learned from and replicated around the world. That's it's very transformational.
(36:36):
Why it's so important, what something Alan Williams mentioned often about the ecological historicalperspective. Because, as you said, you know, like, oh, well, this is a desert. And we even go sometimes to the extreme or saying, Oh, don't touch the desert because we're empty, bypass and things like that. But it's just nature trying to pay themselves, you know, with those crust and all that so and then there's the other approach of saying, Well, this rewild but I think rewilding is not going to work. I mean, we are rewilding the ranch. That's why we got full support from these
(37:18):
conservation organizations, because we have become like a refuge for all the migratory birds. Now werecently stole, well, they help us install bird construct Rockies, a models tracking station. Now I was so happy for that, because now I can see the birds coming from Montana to my ranch, and I see, I see a lot of birds going that path to the ranch. So that really confirms to me that what we're doing is not only good for consumers, is not only good for ranchers, is good for rewilding the places, for protecting all the endangered, unlisted species that are out there. So I can, I can tell people, you
(38:05):
know, all what we're doing is is good for life period, right? Yeah, it's
putting life and biology back into the center of the equation. And that doesn't always mean thathumans can't be part of that. And I think that that's a really important thing we need to talk about more in these modern dialog context. You know that rewilding assumes that nature's always best with eliminating a species that being humans. And, you know, I think that there's a lot of questions that need to be asked there, because we're also part of nature. That assumes that humans aren't part of nature. And I think we just need to rethink our role in nature, just like you look at a beaver, and
(38:47):
the role that a beaver plays in a natural system is crazy and but beavers manipulate theirenvironment, but they do it with intention. And there's, there's just a very different approach, um, can be, can be kind of good and bad at times, honestly, and no offense to the beavers of the world. But after living in Alaska, I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. Um, but I just think there's a lot we can learn about re coming to terms with our role as a species and being part of an ecosystem, rather than always viewing it as humans versus nature, which, like you said, we will never win something
(39:22):
similar, like with the let's put now the cows. You know, the livestock. Like a lot of problems comewhen we see cows as not part of nature, and we're trying to steal the cows. I mean, we, if we have, we have a huge benefit of where we ran, you know, because the call was for grasslands. I mean, it's a bit more challenging for me to go and, I mean, we can do a good job on the dry tropics, but it wasn't the call for for grazers. But where we are, we have that benefit of saying, you know, these are grasslands. And then, or this used to be grasslands, and then we can actually use livestock to
(40:06):
restore, you know, and thrive on the committees. That's a beautiful thing.
Well, thank you so much, Alejandro. And you know, as we wrap up, I mean is there, are there anyfinal things you'd like to share with the audience? And then, of course, will want to direct people to where they can learn more about you. They you know, places on on social media or websites or places where they can follow your work and interact with you.
(40:33):
Yeah, we are in Facebook and LinkedIn under my name, Alejandro Carillo, and then we're also onInstagram under the branch, and we have our website, desert grasslands.com desert grasslands.com Great.
(40:55):
Well, we'll make sure we put those in the show notes for everybody. And you know, honestly, this isa really incredible message of hope. I think I love it. Growing up in rural Oregon, there was always been so much turf war between ranching and the environment and food system, and it's always kind of been a very high tension point. And, you know, growing up in a rural community that was rooted in agriculture. It's, you know, I've always, like, really been conflicted in how to bring that all back together through a holistic lens. And I just think your work is so exemplary. So thanks for taking a
(41:31):
moment to share it with us. I'm so thrilled. And for everybody who's listening, please take a momentto rate this podcast if you're listening to it on a platform that allows for rating and share it with your friends and family and community so that we can get these stories of hope and regeneration out into the world. I feel like people are needing more messages of positivity and in a way where we can live with nature in a nice, balanced way. So please take a moment to share this with your community and spread the word. And thank you so much for joining Alejandro. Thank you for taking
(42:05):
time out of your day, and we'll see you all next time. Thanks for having me here.
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