Rooted in Innovation: Unearthing the Power of Soil Health with Tainio Biologicals

Host: Joni Kindwall-Moore
Guests: Steve Becker (Chief Science Officer) and Dennis Warnecke (Director of Sales and Technical Support), Tainio Biologicals

Episode Overview: In this enlightening episode of "Regenerative by Design," host Joni Kindwall-Moore sits down with Steve Becker and Dennis from Tainio Biologicals to discuss the transformative power of focusing on soil health in agriculture. This conversation explores the intricate relationships within the soil ecosystem, particularly the critical role of microbes in supporting plant health and nutrition.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• The Origins of Tainio Biologicals: Learn about the innovative approach Bruce Tainio took in the 1980s to enhance plant resistance and health through microbial support and balanced nutrition.
• The Importance of Microbes: Steve delves into the role of microbes, including bacteria and fungi, in aiding plants to access essential nutrients and boost their immune systems.
• Practical Applications for Farmers: Dennis discusses how Tainio Biologicals assists farmers in implementing soil health programs that lead to sustainable crop production and improved food quality.
• Environmental Impacts: Explore how regenerative farming practices contribute to environmental sustainability by reducing harmful nitrogen runoff, increasing carbon sequestration, and enhancing overall ecosystem resilience.
• Future of Agriculture: The episode discusses the broader implications of regenerative agriculture practices in addressing global food system challenges and promoting long-term sustainability.

Key Quotes:

• "Farmers in America can have a greater impact on human health than all the doctors or medicines that exist today." - Quoted from Bruce Tainio
• "Think of the rhizosphere like the digestive system of a patient in ICU. It's all about interdisciplinary care, but for crops." - Joni Kindwall-Moore

Episode Resources:

• Tainio Biologicals Website: Visit Tainio
• Contact: [e-mail] for inquiries on how to integrate these practices into your farming operations.

Call to Action: If this conversation inspired you, consider diving deeper into the principles of regenerative agriculture to see how you might apply them to your farming practices or support local farmers who do. Share this episode with friends and colleagues who are passionate about sustainable agriculture and the future of food.

Rate and Review: If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to rate and review the show. Your feedback helps us grow our audience and reach more listeners like you who are passionate about sustainable agriculture and innovation in food systems.

Join Us Next Time: Tune in next week for another fascinating discussion on "Regenerative by Design," where we will explore innovative solutions to combat climate change through agricultural practices. Don't miss it!

To learn more about Tainio Biologicals, Inc., please visit tainio.com.

Regenerative by design is hosted by Snacktivist.  Snacktivist creates baking mixes and finished products that are allergy-friendly, soil, water, and carbon-focused, all while radically impacting human nutrition by transforming staple foods into something more than just empty calories.   Visit snacktivistfoods.com to learn more.

Funding for Regenerative By Design Podcast was made possible by a grant/cooperative agreement from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) Agricultural M

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Joanna, hello everyone. You arelistening to the regenerative by

(00:04):
design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. Iam your host. Joni quinwell
Moore. Join me on this journeyas we explore the stories of
individuals and organizationswho are working to realign our
food system with both humanhealth and the health of our
planet. All right, welcome tothe regenerative by design

(00:24):
podcast. I am very thrilled tohave guests, Steve and Dennis
here today. I'm going to letthem introduce themselves to
you, but a little bit ofbackground. I first heard them
speak at a conference years ago.I think it was even before
COVID. And I was absolutelyblown away by the way that these

(00:45):
guys think when it comes tosoil, soil chemistry, the health
of the plants and the quality ofthe food that comes from those
plants or crops. And I'm justreally thrilled to have them
here today on the regenerativeby design podcast, because if
you're a regular listener, youknow that one of our goals is to
really unpack a lot of thedifferent diverse subjects that

(01:07):
need to come together to trulycreate a food system that is
better for us and better for theplanet. And we can't do any of
that without reallyunderstanding the soil. So
welcome. Steven Dennis, I'm sohappy to have you here.
Thank you, Julie, yeah.
So I'm Dennis. I'm the Directorof Sales and technical support
here at Tanya biologicals.Basically, my role in the

(01:30):
company is help growers, farmersunderstand and utilize the
technology that we bring to themarket today based off of soil
health
programing programs, theimportance program, yeah.
So just, you know, as we talkabout with human health, the
soil is the exact same way. It'snot just one thing. It's a
combination of things that worktogether, and how we understand

(01:52):
those, and how we utilize those.A lot of times in human health,
we go to a lot of differentpeople to figure out what things
we need to do, whether it's whatfoods we need to eat, exercise,
we need to do, stress levels,all of these things, we bind
them together in order tobecome, basically, as we look at
it, a healthy digestive, healthyimmune system. The soil health

(02:13):
is the same way. So I helpgrowers understand that.
Yep, my name is Steve. My nameis Steve Becker. I am the Chief
Science Officer Tainiobiologicals. I work a lot with
the microbes, so I guess alittle bit of background on
Tainio, founded in 1985 by BruceTainio. And he started off as a
plant breeder, plant geneticist,and he basically got frustrated

(02:37):
trying to develop different seedlines that were resistance to
pests, and he'd change it. He'dcreate one that was resistance,
and then a couple years later,the pests are right back. So he
after hitting your head againstthe wall a few times, and you
know the definition of insanity,well, how do we get past that?
So okay, so how does a plantprotect itself, its immune

(02:58):
system? What is a plant's immunesystem? Trace minerals,
primarily and the balancednutrition. How does a plant get
it back in the early, early, mid80s, he was thinking it was
microbial related. So he startedgenerating and producing and
growing different species ofthey're called plant growth
promoting rhizobacteria. We alsogrow plant growth enhancing

(03:21):
fungi, and work with mycorrhizalfungi as well. So our goal is to
take a bunch of those differentspecies and tiny we grow them
individually, blend themindividually, so that we can
kind of lean on the functions ofthose microbes to help the
farmer access the nutritionthat's already available to help
with stresses that areassociated with the environment,

(03:44):
with the plants is going throughon a daily basis, because that's
how we end up with betterquality yields and better
quality nutrition coming out ofthe food health care
plants, you know. And for thoseof you who are listening, you
know the work that Bruce did isso pioneering to where we are
today, in the regenerativemovement, like honestly, in the

(04:07):
in the real thought leadershipof modern regen. Like Bruce's
work is like legacy,foundational, but because he was
so ahead of his time, I feellike he he hasn't gotten the
spotlight. And the beautifulthing about his work is that he
was able to actually create acompany that has created, like,
long, lasting legacy, like youcan still enjoy the fruits of

(04:28):
his ingenuity every day inworking with your team, which is
actually like an incrediblybeautiful lesson and and that
flowed through his late wife,Tina as well. And it's just a
really beautiful story. And I,you know, it's, it's fascinating
in talking to like John Kemp,who's, um, an advisor of mine,
and you know, when he talksabout Bruce's work, it's

(04:51):
literally, with, like,unbelievable reverence. So for
those of you who are listeningand haven't had a chance to
unpack his work, um, you know,we really. Have a lot to thank
him for, for where we are today,and our understanding of soil
health, plant immune systemfunction, and, like, really
creating crops that are havingsuperior nutrition and
productivity because of, like,understanding that beautiful,

(05:14):
intricate relationship thathappens in the rhizosphere. And
when I first heard you guystalk, I was like, holy cow, I
was an ICU nurse. Still, like,the first time I heard you guys
speaking, I'm like, damn. Theseguys are like, ICU docs, or
like, you know, like, because ifyou look at your crop, like a
patient, and you look at thisrhizosphere, like the digestive
tract of the patient, and here Ihad just had interdisciplinary

(05:37):
rounds in the ICU, and we'relike, talking about all the
things, I was like, Dang, thisis like interdisciplinary
rounding, but for crops. AndI've always thought that was a
fun analogy.
Jenny, it's funny in ourhandbook. And this is clear back
from, you know, mid 80s, early90s in our handbook. One of the

(05:58):
things that started was a quote,quote from Bruce, and he used to
talk about farmers in Americaand have a greater impact on
human health than all thedoctors or medicines that exist
today. Yeah,
I would have to agree. I thinkthat that's foundationally true.
And like you say, it all comes,you know, use we so often talk

(06:18):
about eat healthy, you know, nowI kind of go back to the idea of
what Bruce talks about is whatis eating healthy. I mean, we
have to trace that some of whatyour work, that you're doing
right now. We have to trace thatall the way back to the point of
where that seed went into theground, and actually, really
before that, of where did thatseed come from. It's all tied

(06:41):
together. It is. It's
that continuum of actions thatcreate a truly healthy food. And
you know, for too long, I feellike Americans have always
viewed health and healthy eatingthrough this super
reductionistic lens. It's like,it's so binary, like, oh, that's
bad for you. That's good foryou. And never does it actually
talk about, really, where thefood came from.

(07:03):
Like,
you know, can can we make abetter, you know, the the shamed
foods of the world, like, can wemake a better burger and fries?
Well, I mean, interestinglyenough, like the other day, we
made burgers and fries at home,and it was potatoes from
Schoonover farms in easternWashington, 94% reduced
synthetic use, beautiful, higherfiber. And the beef came from

(07:27):
John and Betty mobs, amazingregenerative ranchers. And I was
like, Oh my gosh. Like, this isreally cool. Like, you know, we
can do better. And I think whatyou guys are doing is helps
provide a lot of scientificsupport for that narrative that
is needed.
We go back, Steve and I utilizethe slide a lot that shows

(07:49):
basically the soil, the plantand the human body. And so often
we start with the idea of, well,we need to eat better foods. We
need to eat healthier we have totrace that all the way back to
the soil, and that's what we dohere at manual biologicals. Is
what are the things that we cando to build soil health based
off of soil structure, water,holding capability, nutrient

(08:12):
helping capability, buildingthat plant immune system so that
it's a healthier because allthese when we start to talk
about it directly correlate tothe nutritional value, or the
nutritional density of that foodthat comes from that plant that
then goes into the human body.And that's what Bruce talked
about, I mean, in the mid 80s.

(08:33):
And then it was, you know, 20102011 when the idea of
rhizophagy, rhizophagy cameabout, and then 2018 we've got
to give credit to Dr White andhis team, Rutgers, working on
elucidating how that system isfunctioning and helping people
realize that plants are actuallyconsuming microbes. I mean, we

(08:56):
think about plants as theprimary producers, but they're
also a consumer, and they arepurposefully consuming these
organisms. And I mean, the mainreason for that, we like to look
at microbes. You think about andyou look at a microscope, some
of the cocoyed ones, they'relittle round balls. Some of the
bacillus, they're a rod shape.They look like pills. They look
like a supplement. So looking atthe analysis of them, yeah, they

(09:19):
do.
It's, I never thought aboutthat. That's cool. They're
little pills, and that's whatthe plant is. I mean literally
eating. You look at the analysisof those microbes, and in
general, it's approximately a 10to two, which is NPK, nitrogen,
phosphorus, potassium, a 10, atwo and a two, plus all the

(09:39):
trace minerals. And that's theside that a lot of conventional
AG is is really falling apartwith, is the focus on NPK. NPK
is absolutely critical for plantgrowth. You can't take those
away. But if all you're focusingon is those, the entire system
falls apart. If you're trying tobuild a house. All I need is

(10:00):
wood. That's all I need. No,it's not going to be a house.
It's not going to be a stablestructure. So utilizing those
organisms as the primary uptakevacuum from the soil, extracting
nutrition, is what we're seeing,allowing us to balance the
nutrition in the plant at thesame time significantly reducing

(10:23):
inputs. We've seen reductionsnitrogen is one of the easiest
ones. We've been able to reducenitrogen to 1/5 and maintain
same yield, and that's becausewe're using the microbes,
through biological nitrogenfixation, to take the nitrogen
that surrounds us in theatmosphere, and feed the plant,
just like it's almost likenature.

(10:49):
And you know, so you ask thatquestion, is, so why is that
important? Well, we look at theidea of plants are not plant
roots are not great at gettingnutrition out of the soil, just
like our gut, just like our gut,we need that biological system
in order to make nutrientavailable, as you talked about
on the rise of age cycle. Butwhen we start to think about
that, how does that impact thegreater environment? So we

(11:13):
reduce the nitrogen, we havebetter nutrient uptake. We have
better trace minerals. The planthas all of those because now it
gets it from the soil, all thatgoes into the fruit and into the
human body. So this is how thesystem is designed to work. But
then we start to think globallyof, okay, what's the nitrogen
leaching impact on wells, onwaterways, on algae blooms, dead

(11:36):
zones, eutrophication, yep, allof these things. So now we start
to build that. And then we gointo big deal. And when we talk
about building carbon in thesoil, that's a big one. We're
not burning up carbon. We'reactually storing carbon within
that through dead microbialbiomass, through the plant
debris within that soil, all ofthese things, as you say, it's

(11:58):
almost like it was designed tofunction this way. It's so
bizarre how it works that way.And
it's wild to me, like, how, youknow, some of the things you
just mentioned, like carboneutrophication. I mean, I don't
think anyone has, at this point,not heard about the dead zone in
the Gulf of Mexico, and now wehad these crazy hurricanes. And,
you know, everyone feels sohelpless, like it's such a big

(12:21):
problem. But the reality is, isit starts at such a micro scale
level, and we can be corrected,like we we're not stuck with
this outcome. And I think thatthere's a pervasive narrative
out there that's like, well,we're stuck with this model.
There's nothing we can do aboutit. We're going to hell in a
hand basket. And what you guysdo every day and you help

(12:41):
farmers to achieve is proof thatthat model isn't the only way,
like we actually can do itdifferent. We can still have
super high yielding productivityat the field without being so
extractive, because you'reworking with nature rather than
against it, which is superpowerful.
Or, you know, this
isn't, you know, we go back tothe idea of, prior to this

(13:04):
information and utilizing someof these tools and the
technology that came out, theagricultural practice that we
use to feed the world was thebest tool that we had. But now
we're finding that there'sbetter tools out there, and
they're better, and we'reunderstanding it, and that's
part of it is, you know,basically to embrace this and
now carry this forward. That'swhat we try and do here. And

(13:26):
even based on the food that welook at, the things that you're
doing is they're all as as wesay, they're all interconnected.
Bruce used to talk about that,how everything is
interconnected. Everything youdo. Oh, Butterfly Effect,
yeah, yeah, I guess. Theory,Yep, yeah.
I mean, all of these things whenwe start to think about it, to

(13:48):
me, to us, we get reallyexcited. Everybody says we kind
of nerd out sometimes on this,but it's fine, yeah.
I love it when you guys nerdout, because it's super
important. And I think it was,you know, honestly, one of the
early sessions I was listeningto you guys, where it also was a
real reinforcement, the plantsare farmers. You know, they're
not just passive and, you know,we're cultivating them, and then

(14:10):
they, voila, they suddenlyblossom out something we can
eat. It's like plants arefarmers and and they're very
intentional in sacrificing a lotof their sugar metabolism to
feed that rhizosphere. Like allof those that that complex
ecosystem that lives in theirroot area, they're dedicating a
lot of sugar to feeding thoselittle critters. And, you know,

(14:34):
I think for a long time, we justdidn't appreciate why that was
so important. Why would, whywould a plant sacrifice a huge
part of their metabolic outputto feed another cluster of
organisms. And I think thatthere's so much we can learn
from plants when I think aboutour own human health, and we've
had the exact same neglect forthe importance of the gut
microbiome over the last fewdecades, just like we kind of

(14:57):
ignored that at the soil level.And. And I'm grateful for
antibiotics. I mean, I wouldn'tbe here today if it weren't for
antibiotics. So I'm not one ofthose hardcore hardcore like,
get rid of everything and goback to 1680 but you know, when
we think about just thiscultural shift of appreciation
around biofilms and microbiomesthat happened after the age of

(15:18):
antibiotics, we just have a lotof catching up to do because we
didn't appreciate theexternalities. We just didn't
know. And rather than, you know,villainizing it, what's cool is
now we, we know both, both ways,and you guys are proving that
there's a lot we can do to moveforward.
You know, you talk about thatroot exudates or sugars, and you

(15:39):
know, we they're sugars, butthere's so much more. It's a
communication tool that theplant uses to communicate with
those organisms within the soilenvironment. And you know what's
really cool about that? Youknow, Steve talked about Dr
White's research, not only doesthat plant recruit those
organisms to take it in in orderto digest them, partially digest

(16:00):
them and get that nutrition fromthat but it also will spit them
back into the soil environmentwhere they do that process all
over again. But as research hasproven now, that not only do
they recruit specific organismsin order to get the nutrition
like they phosphate solubilizingbacteria, but then it'll clone
them those protoplasts insidethat root meristem and spit

(16:23):
rather than one out, it'll spitfive out, because it's like, I
need more of them. And sothey're specifically recruiting
them, then cloning them to do aspecific function within that so
environment. And if these guysaren't there, basically,
sometimes, you know, it's likeyour cell phone you don't
answer. There's no voice mail.There's nowhere for them to come

(16:44):
back later once that call is notanswered, because, let's say the
soil is not healthy, then theplant goes somewhere else. It
needs food so it may not getphosphorus. It takes up
something else because it wantsto fill its plate. And there,
you know, our human bodies thesame way. You know, I sometimes
say, if you want a salad, butyou go to an to a 711 and not

(17:08):
that seven elevens are bad, no,it just they may not have that
salad that you want. So you yougrab something else. Only
vegetable
you might find is like a potatochip, which is so far from a
vegetable anymore, that it's noteven funny, but, you know, it's
just it is one of those things.And you know, speaking of that
topic, I actually one of thethings I've been wanting to pick

(17:29):
your brain about forever, and Iwas hoping to last week, when we
were all together, is like howwe're seeing this emerging trend
of higher and higher heavy metalconcentrations in food. And this
is something that ColleenCavanaugh at zgo foods is really
focused on, and she and I areworking together on a grant to
help drive some diversity in theNorthern Rockies. Really, really

(17:51):
amazing pioneering work thatshe's doing. But, you know, from
a root or like, rhizosphereperspective, I've been really
curious to understand more aboutlike that whole uptake game and
why we're just seeing in whatlittle evidence I've seen, I
feel like there's a lot lowerthreshold of heavy metal
accumulation in theseregenerative foods that have

(18:13):
been tested compared to theirconventional counterparts. Do
you guys have any insight intothat?
There's several directions wecan take that. I remember
looking back years ago, therewas some work done around our
area on the Hanford Reach. Theywere looking at hexavalent
chromium, and they found that bydumping molasses in, they're

(18:35):
changing that valence, they'rechanging that oxidation state of
the Chromium to a lessdestructive. And they found that
it was actually Bacillusnecterium. It's changing it so
form of material, form of heavymetal, matters quite a bit. We
can find and isolate differentorganisms that have a capacity
to break down pesticides. Someof them will hyper accumulate

(18:57):
some of the heavy metals, andpart of it is also, I think the
foods that generally go with abiological farming approach are
different. One of the thingsthat we've been looking at and
seeing and I biosolids. Biosolids are scary. There's so

(19:21):
much stuff that humans eat, andthen when we eat it, it's
concentrated in our feces andconcentrated even more on our
waste treatment facilities.Taking that material, putting it
back out in the fields isdangerous Well,
let alone all the other thingsthat end up in that

(19:43):
micro plastics, which they don'teven test for.
Yeah, so I mean, all of thatends up concentrated into a
field environment, which thencarries on, not only into the
food and through the plant, buthow does. Affect what we always
go back to, how does that affectthe biological system, and how

(20:06):
do those things disrupt thatdiversity of those organisms
within that soil environment?And if you think about it again,
we always start at the soil andwork up if it does that in the
soil environment, and then itdoes it in the plant. What does
it do to the human and that gutand that environment, because, I
mean, it carries through. We allwe a lot of times, also look at

(20:30):
overall plant health andnutrition balance and based off
of pH, based off of plantstresses, all of these things
are going to dictate those heavymetals that we're talking about
within that soil environment.For an example, a lot of times
we'll see a root borne disease.As you see a root borne disease,

(20:51):
and you look at a plant's SAPanalysis, you will immediately
see the aluminum go up in theplant because of that stress,
environmental stress that isplaced on that plant. So all of
these things are tied together.So yes, when we look at the
let's say regenerativeagricultural practice, like
Steve talked about, some of theproducts that are being used are

(21:14):
more micro food. They enhancethat biological system, rather
than break that biologicalsystem down, and then it's
better for the microbes, betterfor nutrition availability,
better for plant health. So wecan start to see a reduction in
some of that. But as we talkabout this, a lot of this comes
down to building overall healthand that digestive system, and

(21:38):
once we have that function in asdesigned, we see some of these
problems go away, as long aswe're not throwing things out
there that is making the problemworse, like we talked about a
lot of times, that'sagricultural inputs, right?
And you mentioned biofilms.Biofilms are very important.
It's this idea of microbes usingfor bacteria, extracellular

(22:02):
polysaccharides. They're gluingthings together. Now there's
research showing that if we arein environments that has high
levels of sodium, the plantscommunicating with the microbes.
It's using actually volatileorganic compounds. The microbes
call it breath. It'll spit outmolecules that talk to the
plant, which upregulates genesthat allow the plant to move

(22:23):
more sodium down to the soil andout, which then the microbes.
They see that as an issue. Theyknow it's an issue, so they're
going to bind that material.They'll bind sodium inside of
their glue. So if you thinkabout that, it's the EPS is.
It's building that structure.It's like putting a sleeping bag
on it protects you that then onthe larger scale, so we start

(22:46):
with micro aggregate formationthat happens with those bacteria
gluing together individual soil.Soil collides clay particles on
the larger scale that we move upto a rhizoth. The rhizoth is a
completely different environmentthan the rest of the soil around
it's just like your house in thewinter. Now, the beauty of that

(23:09):
is the microbes using thatextracellular polysaccharide is
kind of insulation. They canalso accumulate some of those
heavy metals inside of thatmaterial. They can help the
plant move that materialpurposefully out. They can up
regulate protected genes. Theycan encourage the plant to dump
those they can take thosematerials themselves and lock it

(23:29):
up, bind it up. And as long asthose biofilms maintain their
structure, it's locked away it,I kind of compare it to like
brick and mortar. It's themortar. It's what's holding
those stones together. So aslong as we're maintaining that
soil structure and we're notencouraging its degradation,
we're helping binds in thatmaterial away, so that that's

(23:50):
another side of the heavy metalthing is, and that's, I think,
part of why we see less uptakein those plants that are
associated with a healthydigestive system. Microbes are
helping protect the plant.
Really incredible, honestly,like, and I feel like, as this
becomes more of a normalizedconversation out there, it just

(24:12):
is very hopeful to people tothink like, okay, we can really,
we can really do a lot to impactour food system and our in our
health, human health, but alsoour health is like part of the
biological ecosystem, ecosystemhealth and and it's really a
matter of working with what wealready have and just optimizing

(24:33):
nature and having a moresymbiotic relationship with
nature, rather than this controlconquest mindset of like We must
control nature. You know, wemust control microbes. It's
like, Guys, we're never gonnawin. Like, there's more
microbial cells in my body thanthere are my own cells. So,
like, we can never win in thatgame, significant odds.

(24:56):
Side of that. I mean, there'swhat, 30,000 human genes. Genes.
There's a million microbialgenes. So looking at the cell
side, looking at the gene side,oh, it's, it's even crazier,
looking at that side of things.It's just,
you know, you had talked earlierabout antibiotics, and they have

(25:17):
a use. They have a function.When we need antibiotics are
it's a wonderful tool. Theyexist, yeah, you know, I
sometimes when we talk aboutoverall plant health as we go
down this regenerative path, isthere a time where you may need
a fungicide or a insecticide ora herbicide in order to as we
build that soil health, you needto band aid. Every once in a

(25:37):
while, you cut your thumb to getto get to where we want to be,
you know. And so, yes, do thosetwo tools have a place in
agriculture? Absolutely, but wehave to understand those tools
and how they affect thatbiological community, just like
how an antibiotic affects humanhealth, you know, a lot of times
you go and now, and they youtake an antibiotic, the first

(25:58):
thing they do is, when you'reoff the antibiotic, they say,
eat yogurt, make probiotics, getthat digestive we need to do the
same thing in the soilenvironment. You know, Bruce
used to say all of thefungicides and pesticides and
insecticides in the world havenot reduced insect disease or
weeds. They still exist. Andthat's where Bruce's work, you

(26:21):
know, originally came from, iswe're just creating healthier
ones. So let's step away fromthat, use that tool when needed.
But let's go to that biologicalworld in order to get that to
function. I mean, I mean, that'sreally when you start to talk
about binding up things thatdoesn't want. You know, we see
all the time. When you get onthis regenerative program, and

(26:41):
you go down this biologicalAvenue, and you change that
microbial profile within thatsoil environment to a you're not
changing in a negative way.You're changing it in a positive
way based off habitat, habitatthat can support them. You start
to see weed pressure change. Itdoesn't mean you get away from
weeds, it just it starts tochange

(27:03):
environment dictates expressionis something that we've been
saying very long time, andthat's associated with weed
pressure, as well as insect anddisease. Insects and disease are
supposed to be there.Saprophytic fungi are in our
environment, in our soil, tobreak down our material. If we
didn't have them, we'd have abuilding. The problem is, when

(27:26):
our plants are viewed by natureas the saprophytic fungi as dead
or dying tissue, it's going tostart eating of that. We see
blossom end rot. We see earlyblight, we see late blight.
Those are there as a clean upthrough. It's not an accident.
Those are nutritionally devoid.You can look at Shibo so healthy
crops, and he was looking atspecific foods and how the

(27:48):
digestive system of thoseorganisms work. Dr Callahan and
Dijkstra that has followed him,and how these insects are
communicating and targeting inon unhealthy things. It's not an
accident that we have thesewe're creating the environment
that's asking them to be there.And it's it's the same with
weeds. We see ships and weedpressures and weed species as we

(28:11):
change that environment, we willsee problems that were severe in
the farm as we start to switch.And we like to describe it as
you know, succession isincreasing complexity of our
soils, increasing complexityenvironment. We don't have those
same pressures, we don't havethose same problems. We have new

(28:32):
problems. We have differentproblems, but we're creating an
environment that is more complexand therefore also more
resilient and less likely tohave a single stressor
completely wipe it out. I meanbananas. We're losing another
variety of bananas.
And when we talk about that,when we look at weed pressure,

(28:53):
you know, there's a great bookout when weeds talk, yeah,
because it directly correlates
if
you have a specific weed.Listen, why it? Yeah, we try and
kill it. But that weed is thereto fix that soil environment, to
accumulate, for an example,calcium, where we have calcium
tied up in that soil. But rouxused to talk about, not only was
it there to get that nutrition,but it's also to repair your

(29:16):
soil biologically, because thereare specific biological
communities put out enzymes oraminic acids that help break
that bond, which makes thatcalcium, phosphorus, calcium,
iron, whatever that might beavailable to the plant. So not
only are those there to repairthe soil, a lot of times we go
in and wipe them out because wesee them as bad, and that's

(29:39):
where we go into that successionof they're there for a reason.
So if we heal our soil, suddenlythis weeds no longer there.
We've went to the next level ofa different
that's not a bad thing. No,it's, it's, it's showing
progress, and that's what wewant to see. We want to see
progress with our soils.Progress. Dog press, we don't

(30:00):
want to be backsliding. No, it's
so true, especially withantibiotic resistant bacteriums.
Just like in the fields, we havethese herbicide resistant weeds.
I mean, we're in the era of,like, the pushback from nature,
where they're like, You knowwhat? We have complex genetics.
We can outsmart this. And nomatter what you throw at us,
we're going to come backstronger. And to me, that is

(30:23):
like the ultimate wake up callto go, Okay, this is not working
the way that we thought in thelong term. Like, where do we
start, on a much smaller level,to just create an environment
that's not as beneficial forthat weed? I work with a lot of
farmers right now up in northernMontana, and a lot of them are
legacy organic, and boy, theirweed pressure from Canadian

(30:46):
thistle and whatnot, is justreally, really tough. And so
I've been trying to think like,you know, as somebody who's
trying to do some value chaincreation at a community level,
you know, we need to supportthem with agronomy. We need to
support them with biologicalamendments to really work on
that, so that way they'resucceeding. And it's been a real

(31:06):
wake up call to me to becauseI'm so used to working with a
lot of regenerative farmers outhere in the Inland Northwest and
and it's a very differentsystem. And so, like, I would
love for you guys even to justkind of talk about, like, say I
were to get you in contact withone of these farmers in Montana
we're working with who's reallybattling these Canadian
thistles. They've been organicfor a couple of decades, so a

(31:28):
lot of tillage, you know, tohelp with Reed weed reduction.
Like, how would you guys workwith a farmer like that? Like,
how does that work? When, when Icall you up and go, hey guys
help.
We've got to touch a little biton leaf extract or SAP analysis,
not an indicator.
And that's what I was going tosay, is it all starts. We say
this all the time. Tests. Don'tguess. So we need to test our

(31:52):
soil. I mean, for example, inhuman health, if you walked in
the doctor and he looks at andhe goes, Well, you know, I think
you need antibiotics and we needto do surgery. No, they're gonna
do a blood test. They're gonnalook at that's what we have to
do in agriculture. We have topull a soil analysis. We have to
have a plant SAP analysis. Wehave tools now, biomass, for

(32:12):
example, DNA sequence, seenwhat, biology and what,
basically function is happeningwithin that soil environment. So
we utilize all these tools, andthen we look at crop, we look at
rotation, we look at tillage,for an example, agricultural
practices, and then agriculturalinputs, and all of those things

(32:34):
is we kind of look at themtogether, and then we start to
pick away at I call the lowhanging fruit. Okay, let's try
and do this different. Thisdifferent and this different,
because the reason your thistleis there is because of organic
matter, maybe low compaction,low calcium availability.

(32:55):
There's a direct correlation toweed species and why they're
there. So then we take a look atbased off of, I mean, do we have
an excess? Do we have high magsoil so we're buying enough
calcium, we don't have goodwater penetrance? I mean, I
could go down eight differentways of why is that there? But

(33:15):
once we start to identify someof these things, we can now
apply tools that's available tothat organic farmer based off of
biological, based off ofnutrition, based off of
agricultural practices thatagain, now thistle is no longer
there, but then we go into well,what is the next thing? And

(33:36):
generally, the next weed varietythat he may have is not going to
be as detrimental to what he'strying to do in agriculture.
Because when we say, talk aboutprimary succession, moving
forward, going from rock to, youknow, basically the rainforest
in agriculture, we're supposedto continue to move forward in

(33:56):
soil health. We're movingbackwards. We're moving back to
rock based on soil health, weneed to just reverse that. And a
lot of it is comes down to whatwe do. And so often I talk about
excesses cause a greaterdeficiency or a greater problem
than a deficiency. So meaning,if we have too much of one thing

(34:18):
in the soil environment, wedon't know that, and we add more
of that, we've createdefficiency of everything else
because of an excess. And so alot of
times, one more time, it's soimportant, I think that this is
something that we get wrong sooften in so many parts of our
lives, not just in the field.
If you look at the law, minimum,meaning your greatest limiting

(34:39):
factor is a deficiency. That'strue, but what I look at there
is that deficiency being causedby an excess of something else
we have. Yeah, everything inmoderation. When we come to
human health, it doesn't meanit's bad, as long as it's
utilized in moderation, and theonly way we know that is to
understand based off of oursoil. Soil and our plant and our

(35:01):
plant SAP analysis of what doesthat plant need? And I guess to
explain that is, you can have asoil analysis, and you can be
perfectly balanced on Calcium,Potassium, Magnesium, Nitrogen,
they're all perfectly balancedin the soil. And then you pull a
plant SAP analysis and the plantSAP says, I'm not getting any
calcium. That's a gut problem.It's a gut problem. It's a gut

(35:25):
resistive system. So now, whatbiology can help him to help
make that calcium available, ora phosphorus deficiency? What
can we utilize? What tools do wehave in our toolbox now to help
with that deficiency? Because ifwe just have one test and we
don't have the other we neverknow that we're expressing a
deficiency. So, you know, in alot of cases, if we look at our

(35:47):
soil and it says, Well, I'mdeficient on this mineral, and
so I dump a bunch of it out, butthe plants telling me, whoa,
whoa, I have way too much ofthis. Stop doing that. Those are
the those. Those are theexcesses that create the
deficiencies now suddenly goahead. Well,
I just didn't say the manganeseexample Colorado, where we've

(36:07):
seen a soil we start off withplants that are expressing a
deficiency. We assume it's onetype of deficiency. It looks
like it's specific deficiency.We didn't know. We had a pretty
strong idea of what it was goingto be, but until we did that
analysis, we didn't know forsure. So it looked like an iron
deficiency. In reality, it was amanganese deficiency. We then

(36:30):
look at the soil, and themanganese levels in our soil
were extremely low. So the firstapproach is, well, let's dump a
whole bunch on it. It didn't domuch. It wasn't until we really
started heavily applying biologyand bio stimulants we had to get
that digestive systemfunctioning. As soon as we did
that those deficienciesdisappeared. And this is after.

(36:53):
We're not going to name names,but some of the local Extension
agents have come out, looked atthe trees and said they're done.
You can't fix it once thisproblem is there. It's done. Two
years later, they're healthy.They're happy. It we have the
capacity to change these systemsin a relatively short time
frame. Some of that depends onthe location you're at, your

(37:17):
environmental conditions,exactly. I mean our Pacific
Northwest Area, with some of ourgrowers that get five or six
inches of rain, that's going tobe a different time scale of
healing the soil than if we goto the Midwest, where we've got
3040, inches in timely manner.They get it all summer. It's got
to be focused on, what do youhave in your area, keeping it

(37:40):
local. I mean, keeping it localon food, but also keeping it
local on how that food isgenerated matters. Yeah,
that's a super important point.Is that not all systems are
created equal, and it'sinteresting talking to folks
from other parts of the world,and they're like, Wait, some of
the farmers you work with getseven inches of rain a year. And
I'm like, Yes, and, you know,and then they start to

(38:02):
understand, like, what they'reup against when it comes to soil
health. Because with that desertcondition that, you know, it's
almost like a crypto bioticcrust scenario, you know, where
it's like, it's very delicatebecause it's so dry and it's
under so much stress from UV forso many days of sun in the
summer and winter as well.

(38:24):
And when we basically thinkabout biology, needs the same
thing we need. It needs food,water, oxygen, shell. It needs
all those
living so it's alive.
And yeah, that's what we have tolook at when we think of our
soil is a living system. And,you know, I, yeah, I A lot of
times I look at you hadmentioned you basically light

(38:47):
damaging those so now they're intheir home, and Dr Hatfield
gives an example of a hurricanejust comes through. A tornado
comes through and wipes out yourhome. Now you're exposed to
everything in that environment.You're very vulnerable, and
that's what happens with some ofthe agricultural practices that
we do, is we go in and we tillthat soil, and we've just
disrupted their environment thatthey tried to create as talk the

(39:09):
rhizomes, the things theycreated to protect themselves
and we destroy them, is thatbad? Maybe not, as long as we
understand that tillagesometimes has to be used in
agriculture. I give the example,we always say, Well, no, tills
the best, don't disrupt thesoil. How do you get peanuts?
How do you get potatoes? How doyou get carrots out of the
ground without disrupting theso, I mean, I guess we create a

(39:33):
potato tree.
We talked about it. Yeah, it'sgot to be a challenge.
That would be reallyfascinating. Yeah, yeah. And
what's interesting is, like, Ifeel like it's so easy to get so
fixated on one practice,philosophy or theology, really,
and and then having Dr ChristineJones here last summer speaking

(39:57):
to a lot of our farmers and herfeelings of. About the risk
versus benefits equation, nothaving to do with tillage versus
herbicide use. And I know thatit really fundamentally changed
the way a lot of folks arethinking about this, not just in
our region, but, you know, evenlike, you know, talking to John
and Rick Clark and those guys,because they also had some time

(40:18):
with her this summer as well.And it was foundationally a
shift in thinking, but if wealways bring it back to risk
versus benefits equation contextwhich is local and just being
reasonable and using that kindof minimalizing mentality of
like, more is not always better.It's pretty incredible where we

(40:41):
can land,
sometimes applying iron, andthat doesn't mean nutrition
iron, applying equipment, ironto your soil sometimes is one of
the greatest benefits you canreceive, even in a no till
environment. So we can't, as yousay, we can't go just this is
the only way we can do it. And Ihave growers in Canada that were

(41:02):
no till they were havingsignificant problems. They went
in and ripped their soil. Theyinjected biology at eight inches
and two inches, because eightinches was where their action
layer was in order to break thatup to get that function back in.
And it was a huge shift for thembased off of soil health and

(41:23):
nutrient availability. I mean,it was game changing gas
exchange. I
mean, soil has to breathe. Themicrobes have to breathe. 1/32
of an inch of crust, allrespiration shuts down. So if
you see a soil that has crust,it's not breathing. If we have a
bare soil in the summer, andit's getting above 100 110

(41:44):
degrees, 120 130 degrees, ataround 103 105 protein salads
denature. They fall apart. Sothose systems are now in a heat
shock environment. It takesextra energy. They have to
protect themselves. They shutdown. So we're losing diversity.
We've got to think about this.We're carbon farmers, and we've
got to be focusing on, how canwe maximize our carbon as a

(42:08):
resource, as a protective tool?And that goes right into, you
know, climate resiliency. We'rethe more carbon we can put in
soil, the more benefit we cansee associated with that, the
better we can have our plants,photosynthesize, create those
exudates, and like you'rementioning, 30% of all that
sugar right down and out, andthat's to create that
environment. And we're findingthat it's called the microbial

(42:31):
carbon pump, where thesemicrobes are purposely taking
that material, and they'recreating humus. They're creating
soil. And that's what we need tohave happen, because, like
Dennis was saying, that's how wecreate that structure. That's
how we create the homes and thehouses, and that's the only way
we're going to have this soilmaintain the little bit of
moisture we get in our area, orthe lots of moisture that we get

(42:52):
in other areas. Having thoseopen floor spaces allows for
better infiltration, allows forbetter storage capacity, as well
as better gas exchange. It's,it's not one thing, it's all of
these things that come togetherapproach.
And I think that's just what Ilove so much about the way you
guys approach your work. And youknow, tanio is a is a company in

(43:17):
general. So, you know, as wewrap this up. I mean, I love
talking to the two. We could dothis all day long, but we are
going, we'll just have to do apart two, and we'll unpack some
more of this. But how can peopleget in touch with you? I know
people are going to listen tothis. They're going to want to
follow your your work. Maybethey're a farmer, and they're
like, Hey, how can you guys helpme? What? Where would you tell

(43:39):
people to go to to get in touchwith you.
Best thing to do, I guess, wouldgo, yeah, [e-mail]
would be the best thing. It's agood email. Or just go to our
website, check us out. Yeah,we're not very good at plugging
or we never talk about products.Plug
your plug yourself. Because Iguarantee it, somebody just

(43:59):
listened to this, and it may besomebody who's been, you know,
driving equipment all day long,and they're a farmer, and
they're like, oh my gosh, thisis what I've been looking for.
So where do they go to find you?What is that website?
T, A, I, N, i, o.com, yep, thatis easy, awesome.
Or email. It's [e-mail], that would be

(44:23):
the best thing. And then, youknow, Jenny in our office,
whoever gets that information,will make sure Steve and I get
it. You know, I always laugh,because I'm never in the office.
I'm always out, you know,talking to growers at shows,
doing those types of things. Sothey will make sure we get the
information, and we, you know,anybody that wants more
information on this, that's partof what we do. Also, as Steve

(44:44):
talked about, is we want toshare basically Bruce's, what I
would say, vision of what hehad, of bait, you know, better
food, better agriculture, betterenvironment, all of. Those types
of things. That's why pineal wasoriginally developed, and that's

(45:05):
what we want to put forward. Soif anybody has questions, we be
more than happy to answer thembased off of, I guess, soil
health. Yeah, I don't have thewinning Powerball numbers, but I
can talk soil Well,
I think we're coming pretty darnclose here. So thanks so much
you guys for joining, and it'sbeen really fun. And I really, I

(45:28):
bet if Bruce could listen tothis podcast, he'd be pretty
darn proud. So let's, let's justkeep growing this movement
together, and it's a pleasure towork with both of you. Thanks
for joining, and for you outthere listening right now. If
you like this, please share itwith your friends, and also, if
you're listening on ediblepodcasts, you can leave a
review. So we're always lookingto grow our audience and get

(45:51):
this message out in front ofmore people, so that way we
really can get behind changingto our world and making it a
better one for our kids andgrandkids and future
generations. So thanks so muchfor listening, and have a great
day. Thanks, Johnny.
Thanks, John,
this episode of the regenerativeby design podcast is brought to
you by snack device nationelevating climate smart crops

(46:12):
and regenerative supply chainsthrough innovative products and
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(46:41):
You.