BYRON HINTERLAND RETREAT - Circadian Living by Regenerative Health Retreats

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Max Gulhane (00:00):
Okay, welcome back to the Regenerative Health
Podcast.
Today I'm sitting down with avery special farmer and pioneer,
I think, in the world ofregenerative agriculture, and
it's Mr Justin Crawford.
And the reason I wanted to getJustin on to speak with me is
because he's one of the uniquefarmers that is bringing

(00:21):
together three disparate areasthat are highly related but very
, very important, in my mind,for feeding communities, the
most nutrient-dense food and, Ithink, has the potential of
eventually feeding the world,and these are regenerative
farming, nguni genetics anddirect-to-consumer meat supply.

(00:45):
So, justin, thanks for joiningme.

Justin Crawford (00:48):
Yeah, thanks, Max.
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.

So tell us about you, where are you located, and
a bit about the operation thatyou're running.

I'm located in the KZN Midlands in South Africa
.
It's about two hours away fromDurban, basically between Durban
and Johannesburg.
It's a high altitude area, so1,200 to 1,600 meters above sea
level, a high rainfall area insummer.

(01:20):
And then cold winters, cold drywinters.
So yeah, that's where I'mlocated.

Yeah.

I'm trying my best to deal with this.

Speak to the Nguni breed, because a lot of
farmers in Australia or Americaeven in South Africa themselves
yourself basically turn theirnose up at the idea of a
medium-framed animal withspeckles and all kinds of crazy
colors and horns.

(01:50):
So talk to us about what yousee as valuable in this breed.

Well, for what we're trying to achieve, I think
the Nguni is perfect becausewe're trying to raise an animal
on grass its whole life,basically.
So that's what we try toachieve.
And then Goonie, throughnatural selection, basically
that's what they've been broughtup doing.
They've been naturally selectedto survive on grass and survive

(02:21):
through droughts, survivethrough disease, without too
much outside inputs andinterference.
So we went for that mingunipurely because we think they are
suited to what we try toachieve, which is obviously not
the norm.
Most people just breed, justdon't eat lots.

(02:44):
So we try to achieve the whole,you know, the whole life cycle.
Basically we try to.
We try to raise the calf, weanthe calf, basically, you know,
take that calf from weaning allthe way to finishing on grass,
um, and I think the goonie is iswell suited to that.
So we haven't made a mistake asfar as that's concerned.
I think it is one of the bestbreeds for that type of system

(03:06):
and, yeah, that's one of thereasons why we chose it.

And compared to, say, perhaps neighbours or
other friends using other breeds.
I mean, I've been learningabout Bonsmara and that breed
that was essentially engineeredthrough human selective breeding
.
So compare, if you can, in yourexperience, the advantages and
differences between Nguni andsome of these other breeds.

Well, I've actually got Gonswara cattle as
well.
You know, I've ended up buying,you know, at auctions where I
thought they were a good deal,et cetera, et cetera.
So I've got a mixed herd.
My one herd is mixed.
So it's actually veryinteresting to see the
differences of how they perform.
The Ponsmara is a South Africandeveloped breed.
I mean, it's not as suited tograss-based systems as they do.

(04:01):
It definitely requires morecare and they, you know, from a
disease perspective they're alsoa lot more difficult to look
after.
Where we are, the one farm inparticular, we get very warm and
humid summers, so you get a lotof pressure from external

(04:21):
parasites.
Ticks and flies and eveninternal parasites are also a
problem.
I think guinea outperforms theguanthomora and it comes to that
, and the use of chemicals issomething that doesn't sit very
well with us.
So we have to use chemicalsoccasionally.
Guanthomora type animals justrequire so much more

(04:45):
intervention from thatperspective.
And then also they're just notas easy to actually get back
into.
Calf finish on grass.
They probably design.
I suppose they'd be bred thatway.
I don't think the originalintention was that they designed

(05:06):
for a car-car operation andthen finishing off in a feed,
lot more than the Inguni.
So there's a definitedifference in the breed, I think
, if you cross it at once.
While with a Inguni they've gota pretty good outing, I think
some of our once more acrossInguni cars which will hit the
ground soon, I think, will bepretty, pretty good.

(05:26):
So you know, the cross is fine.
I think a few of them tomorrowis probably going to be.

Yes, and what was it about the fully grass-fed
operation that drew you in,compared to, say, this
feedlot-based model, which isprobably more expeditious and
perhaps normal route, ratherthan trying to do a slower fully

(05:54):
grass-fed process?

The first thing , actually, I went on a beef
course in 2008, and it wasactually.
The course was with the un-sitone reserve obviously a
sustainable ranching and I needto see grazing here and the
course was held at a feedlot andthat was my first experience of

(06:19):
a large-scale feedlot.
Um, yeah, and I just you.
You just look at a feedlot andyou know that I was actually
disgusted by the whole thing.
When I saw a big feedlot likethat, I always wanted to just go
for the grass-fed root becauseit just seemed so much more

(06:41):
natural and healthier.
Yeah, maybe a bit hard to stickto my side, but I can't
actually bear to let him send mycat to a feedlot.
I just don't.
I would prefer to finish himmyself, just from an animal
welfare perspective and a healthperspective.

(07:03):
So that was the main drivingfactor behind our decision to
cover the rice fields.

Can you talk a little bit, maybe about some of
the numbers that you're seeingwith your cattle in terms of
what age are your cows gettingto, how many calves are they
having?
What are some of these metricsthat speak to kind of the
robustness or longevity of theInguni cow?

You know, my current herd is only, you know,
the oldest.
The longest I've had them isthree years now, so it's still
in the early days as far asthat's concerned.
But I've bought some cows.
They're still in the herd now,so they're 14.
We're on some of the felt-freegrade which is really rough, so

(07:53):
it wears their teeth down a lotquicker than the suits and
belters.
14 is still a fairly good agefor a cow to be raising a calf.
So I've got a few 14-year-oldscruising around that are still
producing calves for me.
So that's the oldest I've got.

(08:15):
You know, 15 might be theoldest that probably survive in
my environment.
I think in better environments,you know, guys have obviously
had cows last much longer thanthat.
Um, that's, that's probably theoldest that we've got.

Yeah yeah, and and speak to speak to fertility
and carving.
Are you having issues ordifficulty with carving?

all they have such small calves.
I haven't seen blood carvings,so yeah, that's almost a
non-factor for the viruscarvings.
We've had a few issues withjackal.
I mean jackal would have killedblood carvings.
But no actual carving, evenheifers.

(09:06):
They generally carve anassistant.
I don't baby my cows.
Cows carve together in one day.

I'm not even there, so there there's no
assistance that the cows have todo yeah, and and the, the
jackal and the predator problemis an interesting one that you
know.
Places like australia we aren'tas uh, it's not as serious a
problem.
Maybe in some areas there'sthere's wild dogs, but we

(09:45):
definitely don don't have thepredators that Africa has.
So are you keeping your herdfully with?

horns for those reasons.
Yeah, that is.
Look, I don't really dehornpurely because it's not really
worth it.
For me, dehorning is more arequirement from the people side
.
So we don't really need todehorn our cattle because
there's a bit of competitionsometimes with high density
grazing.
But the cattle they sort outtheir picking orders for it.

(10:18):
I just don't need to do it onmy side because I'm marketing
directly and the abattoir thatwe deal with doesn't penalise us
for having a jackal.
Yeah, but the jackal factory isanother thing that does help.

So it makes sense, speak to this grazing
operation that you've arrived at.
Were you always usingregenerative or holistic
techniques, or is that somethingthat you started more recently
at?
Were you always usingregenerative or holistic
techniques, or or is thatsomething that you started more
recently?

I've always been interested in it.
Um, you know, I went to myfirst course, uh, 2008, the year
after I started farming for thefirst time.
Um, and I, you know, I was soyoung in those days that, uh, I
really, like you know, I triedto implement it and I made so
many mistakes that I think backnow.
It's not easy, I mean, it takesa bit of time to get the hang

(11:11):
of it.
So I probably, you know, I didit for a couple of years then
and then I tried it again in2012 for a couple of years, also
probably not as effectively asI probably should have done it.
And then when we started threeyears ago, obviously I started
right off the bat.
I started with that type ofgrazing and it's amazing how the

(11:32):
older you are, the moreexperience.
You sort of learn from yourmistakes a lot quicker.
Yeah, and I feel a lot moreconfident now about what I'm
doing.
And you know the cows haveresponded to it, you know.
So it's all about managing sortof cows grass at the same time.
You know you have to balance,balance those needs.
When I first started I probablyfocused too much on the grass

(11:56):
at the expense of the cows, andthat that's a mistake.
You've always got to keep yourcows you know your cows in good
enough condition.
So, yeah, it's all aboutachieving that balance of body
condition and actual impact onthe grass.
You get that balance right.
I think as I got older I'vemanaged to get a grip on that

(12:18):
side of it.
Nature throws a few things atyou and you have to adapt.
I definitely feel a bit betterabout what I'm doing as far as
the grazing side of things.

Can you explain to us and maybe for listeners
that aren't familiar with thesetechniques, can you explain
exactly what you're doing andwhat a typical kind of move or
day looks like?

Yeah, so we move our cattle.
Depending on the time of yearwe move them about four to six
times a day.
So it's pretty intensive.
It still only requires oneemployee per herd.
It's not a lot of extra labor.
But the idea is for them tobasically graze the grass quite
severely, as severely aspossible, without them losing

(13:07):
any condition.
And the more often you movethem it sort of stimulates the
appetite and it just keeps themgoing, if you know what I mean.
So if you move them often andalso prevents fouling of the
paddock, if you give cows a bigpaddock they'll sort of walk
around the whole paddock andthey'll you know that hoof
action and they'll dung in theurine and they sort of foul it.

(13:28):
So a lot of it will be fouledand they won't eat it as
efficiently, if you know whatI'm saying.
With much tighter sort ofdensities and smaller moves,
it's just you get a much moresort of efficient utilization of
grass.
It does come at the expense ofbody condition if you're not
paying attention to it.

(13:49):
It's quite a tricky system.
You have to keep your cowsmoving onto fresh grass as often
as possible.
Basically it requires a bit ofmanagement, but it just allows
you to utilize what you've gotmuch more effectively.
You end up, basically with alot more grass than you ever

(14:09):
imagined.
Basically I mean my one grazingfarm, I ended up with 100
hectares that I rested for thislast winter, out of 250 hectares
.
So basically we just let 100hectares grow out for winter
fodder, which is a big plus whenit comes to winter.
You've got all that rest ofgrass basically because you're
just utilising the rest of thefarm as efficiently as possible.

(14:32):
A lot of guys don't agree withit because it requires lots of
monitoring and management.
I think it's very beneficialfor the grass.
You see big improvements inyour grass in quite a quick
space of time.
The cows have to also adapt tothe system.
So when you bring in new cowsit does take them a few months

(14:55):
to get used to it.
It's best to actually have cowsborn on your farm into that
system.
They do much better than newentrants into the system.
The idea behind it is basicallyjust efficient utilization of
grass with an appropriate restperiod.

(15:16):
I'm in a high rainfall area, somy rest periods in summer are
pretty short.
To keep the grass vegetative,you've got to go back onto it
for three to four weeks.
If you let it grow out too longin my area it loses.
It's meaty, and then you knowcow performance crops.
So, yeah, it's all aboutkeeping the grass vegetative and

(15:36):
then you know, keep cows freshfor a long time and, and this
balance between hitting theground or hitting the grass hard
is obviously and cow condition.

To me that sounds like you're getting
benefits from intensive proofaction, from intensive grazing
and non-selective grazing, whichis beneficial because it's
acting like a stressor, ahormetic stressor that will
bounce back greater after rest.
But you've got to balance thatagainst.
Is that the potential of thecows getting stressed from not

(16:18):
having enough to eat or beingtoo close to the rest of the
herd.

So what you end up doing, you get competition
for grazing, obviously, and thecows will eat grass that they
probably wouldn't usually eat.
So there can be a decline inperformance, individual
performance.
So it comes with that risk andyou've got to keep a close eye

(16:44):
on your cows.
But you must never basicallyallow your cows to get fat.
If there's a gap, you can fillin that gap with a little bit of
supplementation At certaintimes of the year, like before
they're calving.
Now I'll allow my cows to be alot more selective so they'll
get into the best condition aspossible.
Now we won't move them four tosix times a day at the moment.

(17:06):
We'll basically move them maybetwice a day and allow them to
put on weight before they calve.
So you've got to sort of takethe time of year into account as
well and body condition of thecalves for that time of year,
because carving in goodcondition is critical to getting

(17:26):
your calves back into craft.
It's actually the mostimportant factor in reconception
.
So I won't push my calvesharder this time of year.
I'll allow them to put onweight While they're carving.
I won't push them too hardeither.
Once the calves are basicallyall born I'll probably start
running them a little bittighter so you adapt throughout

(17:49):
the year, basically.

It's an interesting balance because
you're obviously to me it soundslike you've got this long-term
I mean very long-term benefit onthe grassland and the soil
quality, the carbon, themoisture quantity, but then
you've also got a longer, butmaybe shorter time horizon,
which is the body condition ofthe cows that you're using.

(18:14):
So it sounds like a balancethat you're describing between
keeping both optimized as muchas possible.

Yeah.
So it requires basicallybalancing those two your filter
and your cows.
Basically You've got to justkeep an eye on your cows.
Your cows come first.
Obviously, if your cows getthin, you know you basically
you're not going to make anymoney.
So you've just got to keep aneye on your cows and then
basically use your cows toimprove your ground.
That's the idea.

(18:45):
And you know, cows can improveground very quickly if you allow
them to just express theirnatural behaviors.
And you know, if you don't pushthem too, their natural
behaviors and and, and you know,you know, if you don't push
them too hard, they, they stilldo.
Well, um, I do supplement them.
You know I'm not one of thoseguys who thinks a cow can
survive like like an antelope onthe.

(19:05):
You know, I don't think gooniecows can do that in that system.
I think they still need a bitof supplementation.
So you know I push them hardbut I give them a bit of
supplement to compensate foranything.
You know, and I think you know,as long as you sort of keep an

(19:27):
eye out on their condition andmonitor your grass all the time,
it can work.
It definitely can work and it'sworking for me.
I mean my one farm is verysmall.
I mean it's only 40 hectaresbasically Cows all year round,
basically without any pay.
So that's basically three cowsper hectare, which is pretty

(19:49):
intense, but it can be done.

What is the biggest argument against this
model?
Because obviously, this idea ofset stocking is what maybe the
norm is, and so how do you thinkabout people who would argue
against the idea of thisintensive grazing model?

Some people have valid criticisms of it,
because if you don't monitor itvery closely, things can go
wrong.
It's usually as a result ofsome guys do it with the wrong
genetics, if you haven't got theright type of genetics for that
system and goonies are almostalways adapted, you know,

(20:34):
suitable for that type of systembecause of their small frame
and you know they just, most ofthem, have got.
They're voracious eaters,they've got good appetites, they
, you know they don't getparasite hassles, which all
contribute to, you know, totheir body condition.

They're adapted to the heat, you know.

When it's hot, the Goonies can still carry on
grazing.
I think some guys try and do itwith the wrong genetics.
And if you haven't got theright genetics it can be a
problem and then maybe it's justtoo difficult for people to
implement in certainenvironments A lot of your
environment can make certainthings difficult.

(21:12):
If you've got a very steep farm,it can be difficult.
I've seen it, you know.
I've seen guys get it right inarid environments and very wet
environments so you can work inboth those environments and it
just depends on you know yourgoals, I suppose as a manager.
It's just you know people havedifferent approaches to things.
There's no right way and wrongway of doing it.

(21:35):
The system just suits me.
I think it's just best for meto maximize the land that I've
got.
For me to go find other farms,it just makes it too difficult.
I'd rather maximize the twothat I'm renting presently.

So that's my approach to it.

I just try and maximize what I've got.

Yeah, you know presently.
So that's my approach to it.
I just try and maximize whatI've got.
Yeah, so I mean, it sounds tome like the the best metric for
judging the improvement of ofthe land is the carrying
capacity.
Um, so how many more cows youcan carry compared to when you
started regenerative grazing theland is?
Is that one way of thinkingabout it?

well, you know, I think profitability in
ranching or farming the biggestfact is your stocking rate,
regardless of how you'reactually selling you're selling
direct to consumer or if you'reselling to feedlots I think this
your stocking rate is your isthe biggest factor.
You know.
I think that's obviously.
Fertility is probably thesecond biggest factor in

(22:33):
profitability.
So if you can manage to getthose two pretty high, I think
you're on the right track.
Obviously, the higher yourstocking rate goes, the more
pressure you're putting on yourcows and fertility can drop,
which is the one criticismagainst the high density grazing

(22:53):
.
A lot of guys have had drops infertility, which is the one
criticism against thehigh-density grazing.
A lot of guys have had drops infertility.
Yeah, so you've got to have theappropriate cow.
You basically have to carve atthe right time of year as well.
When you do this, if you'regoing to carve in early spring,
when it's still dry, it's goingto be very difficult for you to

(23:14):
get those cows back into calf.
Yeah, so you've got to workwith nature when you try to
implement this type of system.
Yeah, it can be done, but youcan make mistakes as well, so
there's a risk to it.

Yeah, and maybe share with us some of the
biggest mistakes that you'velearned from for anyone
listening or thinking aboutgetting into this game yeah, my
biggest mistakes have been havebeen obviously pushing my cows
too hard and then my wintersupplementation, you know trying
to save money on, onsupplementation throughout

(23:46):
winter our winters are probablythe worst you know get the value
of the grass really, reallydeclines.

I've tried to get my cows through winter,
maybe by not spending enough onit.
That's been my biggest mistake.
I think I should have probablyeven this previous winter.
I ran into my cows battling abit in August.
I had to change quickly andsupplement them a bit more.
Yeah, so you know, I've alwaystended to probably be a bit too

(24:18):
hard on my cars, even from asupplementation point of view.
I think it's a false sort ofsense of saving.
You think you're saving money,but I think you just lose out in
terms of production.
Yeah, so that's probably beenmy biggest mistake.
You know.
Inadequate supplementationthrough the winter months.
Yeah, I've learned, yeah,lessons there.

Yeah, for sure yeah, and look, it sounds like
these.
These challenges are, all youknow, very context dependent.
Lots of places, especially herein australia, you know, don't
have the harsh winters that thatyou're describing.
So, uh, it seemed.

It seems very, yeah, very, very location
dependent you know, even insouth africa you know that
there's a big range of differentenvironments.
The guys in the dry are morearid to the areas they have.
You know, as long as they'vegot grass, the quality is there.

Yeah, we have lots of grass, but the quality
really declines, you know,hugely in winter so yeah,
everyone has a there's adifferent, different sort of
challenge as far as that'sconcerned yeah, so so talk to
this, this direct to consumermeat um operation that you're
running, because here inaustralia it's it's really
taking off.

(25:27):
There's more awareness, I think, from people, from consumers,
that they want to know wheretheir beef has come from.
They want to know where theirbeef has come from, they want to
know where their produce hascome from and as there are more,
I think, interventions andinputs into the animal
agriculture sector with moreopacity or lack of transparency

(25:50):
about what chemicals may or mayhave not been used on those
animals, more and more peoplewant to know and have that
direct relationship.
So what was the impetus for youto get into direct to consumer
set sales of your meat?

yeah, so you know, like I spoke about
visiting a feedlot for the firsttime, obviously was one of the
triggers.
Um, I've always been prettyhealth conscious.
I you know, I've been buyinggrass-fed meat for as long as I
can remember, basically andSouth Africans are slowly as far
as our sales are concerned, wedon't have a demand issue.

(26:25):
We could sell as much meat,basically, as we could.
There's definitely an uptick inSouth Africa as well, as far as
people wanting to know wheretheir meat comes from, whether
it's being treated withantibiotics or growth hormones.
There's definitely moreawareness, I would say, in South
Africa as far as people they'remore aware of how beef is

(26:48):
produced.
That's promising from our side.
I think the potential forgrowth is huge.
Our biggest problem is actuallythe supply, basically the time
it takes to raise an animal.
That's our biggest challenge.

(27:09):
I think we underestimated howdifficult that would be from a
cash flow perspective, you know.
So that's been our biggest,biggest hassle.
Um, I probably bought too manybreeding cows.
I should have bought, maybe youknow, some meat or some long
yearlings, um, and I would haveshortened that.
You know that production period, um, obviously, from that, you

(27:31):
know from that as we go,obviously from that, you know
from that as we go on.
Um, but yeah, that's, I thinkit's.
I think australia is probably,you know, ahead of the curve as
far as we're concerned, butsouth africa is catching on for
sure.

Yeah, what is that turnaround time from?
From maybe the the inseminationor conception, to to, uh, you
know, beef on the plate, youknow so.

So our steers, we, basically we slaughtering
them about two and a half round,about two and a half years old,
and our supplement, though ongrass, yeah, so it's not too
long, I mean, yeah.
So look, it's basically frombirth to to slaughter about two
and a half years, you know.
Obviously the gestation goesnine months as well, I think.

(28:16):
Once you're in the system, itobviously can be very
financially rewarding.
It's quite a strain gettingthere.
I can promise you we're notgoing to give up any time soon.

Some of the challenges that the farmers that
I told you have, depending onwhere they are, is is processing
, and and the abattoirs.
So and and especially thistrend here in australia of the
closing of of abattoirs to smalloperators and and basically the

(28:51):
the conglomeration orcentralization, as they get
bought out by big boys andthey're only interested in doing
bulk orders, so to speak.
So is that an issue for you?

Fortunately it isn't.
I don't know if it'll change inthe future.
We've got a small abattoirthat's only about 30 kilometers
up the road from us.
So that's yeah.
I mean, we originally startedslaughtering we didn't even know
where the abattoirs were.
When we started it was 170kilometers away from us.
We started there and then wefound a smaller one 30 k's away
from us, which is, you know,which is ideal.

(29:23):
So I mean, it's basically ahalf an hour trailer ride to the
abattoir, you know.
So it's a lot less stress forthe animal, you know has some
advantages there, because maybeit's not as centralised as the
Australian beef industry in thatrespect.

Yeah, I think it's really an animal welfare
issue, and you hear about howfar some producers have to truck
their animals and you know theregulations that are, you know,
so onerous that they close thesesmall abattoirs or they make it
unprofitable for the abattoirsto service smaller operators.

(30:07):
That's really impacting.
Not only is it makingeverything more expensive
because of fuel costs, but it'salso impacting the animal
welfare of those animals thathave to stand in that truck for
longer.

Yeah, yeah, I follow Jake Mulkey on Twitter
and Instagram and, yeah, he,basically I've seen these
challenges as far as watering isconcerned.
Yeah, so I forget.

Yeah.

I must be lucky from that side.
We haven't got that issue.
Yeah, so that's one plus for us.
The processing we actually doourselves as well, so it's not
very onerous to our side.
So I've got a blockman whoprocesses for us when we need to
do it, and that's easy.

So you receive the carcasses back and then he,
he, uh, basically butchers ityeah yeah, and then we process
the meat ourselves.

So yeah, so that that that that's.
Yeah, the regulations and thatfrom from our side are probably
as strict as australia.

So yeah, yeah, definitely sounds like uh, an
advantage.
Talk about the meat quality andwhat does it taste like.
Are people specifically afterNguni versus other kind of beef,
and what's your experience?

Yeah, you know, I'd never eaten an Nguni well,
knowingly eaten an Nguni steakup until last year November.
So we didn't really know whatto expect.
But, yeah, the quality ofGoonie meat is absolutely
outstanding.
So we were pleasantly surprisedby that.
I mean, we've slaughtered somerelatively old cows with the

(31:46):
quality of the meat being rightup there.
So, yeah, goonie's got goodquality meat.
That's one thing that we werereally, really surprised by.
And, interestingly, we'veslaughtered some other animals
and I would say that Ngunioutperforms, you know, the
traditional beef animal as faras flavor and, just, you know,

(32:07):
general quality is concerned.
So I don't think quality isever going to be an issue if you
, if you, stick to the greenbreed.
As far as direct, directmarketing, um, yeah, so you know
, you know no one is even awareof it.
That's the thing.
It's a funny.
It's a funny thing because, youknow, in goonies are south
african breed and no one's everreally tried to to Huni beef in

(32:33):
South Africa before.
I mean we often see Angus beefin the supermarket, even in
South Africa.
Angus guys will say you knowit'll be labeled as an Angus
steak, but I've never, ever seenanyone actually label it a Huni
steak.
I've never seen it done.
So yeah, it's a funny thingbecause the quality is right up
there, so you know there's anopportunity there to brand it
for sure.
Yeah, the quality's right upthere, so there's an opportunity

(32:53):
there to brand it for sure.

I found that peculiar that, basically the
country where this breed isoriginated people hadn't even
tasted their own beef, so tospeak, their own cattle, and,
like you say, they were happy toimport this consumer preference
of Black Angus, which is acompletely dominated Australia

(33:18):
as well.
People have a perceivedsuperiority of this Black Angus
breed, which in my opinion isunfounded relative to a lot of
breeds, basically anythingthat's fully grass-fed, but even
particularly something like afully grass-fed Nguni cow.

(33:38):
But yeah, to me it seems likethere's no reason why that
couldn't be a thing, nguni beef.

No for sure.
You know, I think originallyNgunis.
Well, there's still aperception out there amongst a
lot of South Africans that aGoonie is an inferior animal to
your British and European breeds.
I think that's probably whereit comes from.
People were probably neverinterested in actually branding

(34:08):
something as an Inguni steakbecause most of the population
regarded them as inferior.
Something is an acute mistake.
Because most of the populationregarded them as inferior.
Um, it's only probably in thelast I don't know 20, 30 years
that you know commercial southafrican commercial farmers have
not been good.
He realized what they canactually do.
Um, you know that, you know youneed to become sort of more
mainstream.
Um, yeah, so maybe that's.

(34:30):
You know that that sort ofperception has been the thing
holding it back.
Maybe that has been the issue.

But that perception is totally incorrect.

So there's definitely an opportunity for
the other qualities, definitely.
I mean, I've spoken with one ofthe society members from Africa
.
He also markets his beef on asmaller scale and he says, yeah,
the quality is just out of thisworld.

(35:00):
You can't believe how good itis.
So, yeah, there's definitely anopportunity there, but it's not
easy, I suppose, to get thepublic to buy into it.

Yeah, and look, that's a theme I think of of
direct to consumer and a lot ofthese regenerative kind of
operations, which is consumereducation about the value of, of
the beef nutritional quality,and I think there's hopefully in
the future going to be thingslike nutrient density and
nutrient testing that we canpoint to to say, look at this

(35:38):
compared to your supermarketfeedlot beef, um, and and
hopefully to justify and educatepeople that that it's worth the
, the, perhaps the, the extrasmall premium yeah, I think it's
happening in the states already.

I think there's um.
I don't know if you follow DrStefan van der Vliet.
He's doing some testing onnutrient density for grass-fed
beef versus feedlot beef.
I think that is on its way tohappening.
Definitely, people are becominga lot more health conscious, so

(36:14):
that you know I think peoplewant to know, you know, what the
difference between a grass-fedsteak is and a feedlot steak now
not everyone, but a lot ofpeople are interested in that.
so I would be very, verysurprised if a feedlot steak has
more nutrients than a grass-fedsteak, and I think dr stephen
from its research is starting toactually back that up.
He's he's doing the researchand I research and I think it
won't be long before all thatevidence is in favor of

(36:36):
grass-fed beef.
I think one of the problems isyou get a bit of variation in
terms of producers.
Some producers probably don'tproduce the best grass-fed beef
because maybe they'reslaughtering animals before
they're ready, there's notsufficient fat cover on the
animal, before they're ready,there's not sufficient fat cover
on the animal, and you'llprobably end up with a

(36:57):
substandard product in thatrespect.
So it probably is producerspecific.
But the more and more producersthere are out there, I think
the better quality productyou'll probably find.
You'll get some producers whobecome very good at it.
I think, nutrient density, I'msure, for God's sake, will be
the key.

Let's yeah, you mentioned Jake Wilkie and Jake's
a good friend and he's doingsome very innovative stuff with
basically putting in goonieballs over retired dairy cows
and you know, the 40% or so thatdon't carve after they've, you
know, come from the dairy afterthey've been kicked out of the

(37:39):
team of the dairy team, the onesthat don't carve, he he puts on
grass and then sells as dairybeef and some of these cows are,
you know, eight years old, sixeight years old, and uh, that it
, they taste amazing.
And have you have you uh, hadany of these, these older cattle
being processed and have youhave you kind of tasted that?

(37:59):
That particularly?

hairy beef.
You're talking about max or anyor any older cow yeah, I've
slaughtered some older uni cowsand the meat is absolutely.
Yeah, it's absolutely perfect.
I think I've slaughtered acouple of 12 year old cows and
the meat's been good.
Um, it's all about basicallybasically the fat coming.
If they're in good conditionand you hang them for long

(38:23):
enough, the meat is actuallypretty good.
Eight-year-old cows, uni cowsI've slaughtered quite a few now
and they're absolutely perfect.
Yeah, so you know the wholebeef industry, though the
grading system in South AfricaI'm sure Australia is the same,
it's all on basically the age ofthe animal sort of determines
the quality, but it's actuallyit's not really an appropriate

(38:47):
sort of grading system for a lotof people.
I think an eight-year-old cowis pretty good eating,
especially if it's in goodcondition.
Yeah, so you can slaughterthese cows at eight, ten years
old and it's good quality.

Yeah, and I think as long as it's.
If the carcass has anappropriate hang time you know
10 days, two weeks then that'salso pretty important.
Where are you seeing the fatdistribution in these fully
grass-fed animals?
Is it predominantlysubcutaneous, like a fat cap, or
are you seeing marbling as well?

You know, the goonie doesn't marble that much.
From my experience, a lot of itis sort of subcutaneous.
I would say um, but it it'smarbled sufficiently.
You know, I think that you know, look like I've never eaten a
waggy steak, but I've seenphotos of that, of it and they
have really really, really.
You know a lot of marbling.

(39:43):
You don't get that on a goopymuch, obviously.
But they have subcutaneous fatsand they have sufficient
marbling for good eating.
So that's been my experience ofit.
So I don't know if theconsumers have.
You know Wag.
You know it's an interestingone.

(40:05):
I think it's been sold as thispremium product.
But a wagyu cow is, it's verydifficult to raise in a natural
environment.
You know it's not a type of caryou're going to go stick out on
the range no yeah.
So you know, it might, it mightbe a tasty steak, but I don't
think it's the healthiest.
Healthiest, whereas an agunicaa lot of them are in harmony

(40:30):
with the environment.
Uh, just the whole, the wholepackage just just looks better
to me and the quality of themeat is good.

So, yeah, I would say you, obviously not as
much marbling, but yeah yeah,that and that's been my
experience when I I was tastinganguni beef and yes, it wasn't.
It didn't have intramuscularmarbling, but the muscle meat
was deeply flavorful and thenthere was sufficient fat cap to

(41:00):
make it, you know, reallydelicious.
And it's something that I'veadvocated for from a human
health point of view, similar toDr Sean O'Mara, who's one of
the world's leadinghealth-optimizing doctors, and
both of us advocating for thisgrass-fed beef, this fully
grass-fed beef that inevitablyhas less intramuscular marbling

(41:21):
than a feedlot-fed cow or the,you know, the pug equivalent,
bovine pug equivalent, which isthe Wagyu.
So, yeah, hopefully people comearound to that and you know
demand keeps rising.

Yeah, for sure.
I follow Sean on Twitter, soI'm aware of his work.
Yeah, like you say I think youare what you eat, basically you
know.

So, yeah, that's it the, the um, maybe in terms
of uh any, any kind of lessonsor encouragement or advice that
you'd have for people looking atthis?
You know this full stack of say, perhaps using Nguni genetics
in a regenerative grazing modeland then trying to do or going

(42:08):
down the direct-to-consumermodel.
Would you have any kind ofreflections or particular advice
that might help people?

My advice would be, starting out, is to
probably buy as many weaners andoxen as you possibly can to
start with, and add the breedingcows when you can afford it.
I just think from a cash flowperspective, you're going to get
a return a lot quicker thanactually going the whole
breeding route.
I think the breeding route isthe way that we all think we

(42:40):
should start, but from a cashflow perspective it's definitely
not the way to start.
You need to start with growinganimals, basically that you can
add value to that increase invalue as you basically buy them.
A cow is another story.
You've got to get her intocough.
Once she's had that cough,you've got to get her back into

(43:02):
cough and she takes a lot morecare than a, than a weiner or an
oxy.
You can just you can run on,you know you can run on grass
and you know put weight on.
So that's the biggest mistake Imade and I actually, if anyone
else was trying this from fromscratch, I would definitely
suggest that they they go thatroute, you know.
So I think you've just you.

(43:22):
Cash flow is king in thisbusiness and you know the beef
industry.
It's notoriously difficult toget a return quickly.
So I think you've got to doeverything you possibly can to
try, you know, to try andminimise that sort of that time
between your initial investmentand getting some sort of return.
And another thing is I wouldn'tadvise buying land to start with

(43:45):
.
I made that mistake twice.
Yeah, rented ground isdefinitely the way to start.
Once your business is going,you can look at buying land.
But rented ground I mean youcan get rented ground just about
in every country.
I look at it.
Rented ground you can get for afraction of the price of buying
land.
So it's just, you know, you'vegot to start with rented ground

(44:08):
and growing animals, don't startwith cows.

That would be my advice.
That's very good advice, and Ithink two of the farmers that
are good friends here inAustralia, jake Welke and Brian
Usher both of them are usingNguni genetics, but they also
are emphasising the model thatyou described, and part of that

(44:32):
is also because these cows arequite scarce here.
As you know, there's a smallbreeding herd of pure-blooded
animals, so to buy or to startwith a breeding herd is
extremely expensive.
So it definitely makes sensefrom a financial point of view,
if we're trying to sellgrass-fed beef, to maybe start

(44:53):
with a bull and then, yeah,maybe get the benefits of the
genetics but also, as you say,work on optimising the cash flow
.
The other point about therenting versus the leasing land
versus buying is also prettyinteresting.
There's a young guy, camGriffin, here in Australia who's

(45:14):
doing just that.
I don't know if you'refollowing him on Instagram, but
it seems like it's a great kindof in, especially for younger
farmers looking to break intothis.

Max, there actually is no other way to get
into it unless you've gotobviously big capital.
It is the best way to get intoit.
You know South Africa hasn'tgot the sort of beef industry of
the states.
In the states you can startwith other people's cattle on
rented ground.
People will pay you tobasically graze their cattle for

(45:48):
them.
So that's an option for peoplein the states.
In South Africa we don't havethat option, so you still have
to come up with a capital to buythe cows or the weaners or the
oxen.
Yeah, you know you can'tcompare the two systems now.

so even in australia.

I'm sure it's got to be.
It's got to be the way to start.
Um, you know, if you keep theback, if you buy correctly and
you buy, you buy an animal,that's, that's not too long.
You know, if the period betweenbuying and selling is not too
not too long, you know, startsome cash.
That's definitely the way to go.

Yeah, it's interesting how these changes in
economics and monetaryincentives and in the whole
agricultural systems are kind offorcing adaption and I think
what we've talked about in thisdiscussion is some of the the
most efficient adaptions, whichis low input, ie fully grass-fed

(46:49):
, um a robust genetics, ie ingoonie, so they're not, you know
, having uh obstructed labor andyou know dying and pulling
carbs out and then cultivating amarket so you can sell your
beef directly and not uh be aprice taker, um, you know, in
the commodity market yeah, nofor sure.

In south africa .
You know the price.
The b price at the moment isreally really low.
Um, we're fortunate that we'renot actually being impacted by
that at the moment, for somereason, that the end price
doesn't really fluctuateanywhere near as much as the
commodity markets do.
So I think if B-price go upobviously we probably would be

(47:35):
different.
But for me, selling an Aguni cownow is slaughtering her and
processing and selling her Atleast I'm getting a decent
return, whereas if I had to sellher, you know, through the
commodity channels at a sale, Iwould be getting a lot less.
So you know, you've got that,you've got that, you know you
can control your destiny a bitfrom that side of it.

(47:56):
Um, you know that, so it's abig plus from that side who are
your customers mainly, and whereare they?
I actually stick to theproduction side of it and my
wife runs the sales side of it.
We're fairly unsophisticated,basically we don't even have a

(48:19):
website.
Our customers we sell all theway up to Janusburg quite a lot
in Durban.
Durban's fairly close to us,about an hour and a half two
hours.
There's a small town calledHawick which is 20 minutes away
from us and then Peter Marisburgwhich is about 40 minutes away
from us.
So we sell between those sortof four centres.
Basically we're selling our meateasily.

(48:40):
It hasn't been a hassle at all.
I thought when we first startedwe would sit with a lot of
mince and we thought we wouldsell the steaks would sell out
quickly and the mince would sit.
But that hasn't been the case.
People buy the mince and thehamburger and that kind of thing
.
Stewing meat has been very easyto sell.
You know the selling sellingacross red beach has been.

(49:03):
It's been easy.
You know.
Um, you know, look thecustomer's too hot.
Um, you know the.
The challenge has been thesupply side.
Just having a regular supplyhas been a challenge for us.

Yeah, that was well, uh, I mean yeah, and I
guess the learning process, andwell, I mean all the South
Africans that I know love eatingbeef, so with low beef prices,
it sounds like a great place tobe a carnivore to eat a lot of
beef.

Yeah, I suppose it's all relative maybe, but
the prices are much lower herethan in Australia.

Yeah, yeah, fantastic yeah.

Yeah.

Fantastic.
Well, justin, do you have anyfinal thoughts?
I mean, the other interestingthing that was actually posted
on the Nguni International Groupthat we were kind of discussing
recently was that finding ofbasically an apocalypse Arctic
cattle herd somewhere up in thearctic circle and and you posted

(50:05):
a very interesting articlenoting that the actual breed
characteristics or the geneticsequencing, and they were seen
to be predominantly, you know,northern, uh, northern european
cattle, and you know we, we madethe point that it's almost, you
know, too obvious to say, butyou know you should be using the
cattle that are adapted to yourlocation.
Yet in in my, in australia,there are people using, you know

(50:28):
, british breeds, uh, perhaps inmore drier, hotter areas than
they would have traditionallybeen adapted to, and then
complaining when they don'tthrive no for sure.

I think that's been driven by the commodity
feed market.
The feedlots and the avatarsare basically dictated to the
farmer basically.
So the farmer has gone, and nowit happens in every country.
He's gone and put animals whichhave suited the meatpacking.
They want big carcasses, I'dimagine, and the feedlots want

(51:04):
animals that are going to gain,have high feed conversion ratios
.
So I think the farmers sort ofmost farmers have gone with the
animal that suits the feedlotand the herbiture more than
suits the environment.
So basically the farmers aresubsidizing the process up to

(51:26):
the guys taking the hiding,basically, and it happens
everywhere.
It's just one of those thingsthat you scratch your head and
you wonder when are people goingto take back some sort of
control and farm with a cow thatis more suited to your
environment?
I'd imagine parts of Australiaare so hot that the Angus must

(51:50):
really take strain in summer andthe humidity, together with the
heat, is a big.
I've got some cattle which havea bit of British blood in them
and when it gets really hot andhumid they take a lot of strain,
have a bit of British blood inthem and when it gets really hot
and humid they take a lot ofstraight.
I suppose the pharmaceuticalindustry as well has allowed
people to keep those cattlealive where previously they

(52:14):
wouldn't have survived.
It's been a few factors whichhave contributed to that.
Some of us don't want to, youknow, pump our capital for those
pharmaceuticals and, you know,farm capital that aren't suited
to our environment.

So you know, I don't know.
I'll always carry on with a cow,which I think suits my
environment yeah, it's a greatpoint and it doesn't get
emphasized enough, which is, uh,you know, the pharmaceuticals
industry's influence inveterinary medicine through
agriculture is, you know, justas uh, you know, deep as it is
in human medicine, and I, atleast, humans kind of you know,

(52:54):
after they get prescribed thattheir kind of uh, third blood
pressure lowering medication andtheir fourth, fourth, diabetes
med and maybe their sixthincrease in their insulin dose,
that they start asking questionsbut the poor cow can't say
anything oh, she just gets withmore chemicals, like you said
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,but no, it's, it is, it's a,

(53:19):
it's a trend, and I think, to meat least, you know, having this
conversation with, with peoplesuch as yourself and and other
farmers, it sounds like thependulum is kind of swinging,
swinging back and and.
Uh, you know people, as wetalked about people demanding
more chemical free meat and and,and producers such as yourself
are there to to kind of meet thedemand and and, and that's my

(53:40):
perspective, like peoplewondering why a doctor is having
such interest in an in inaustralian obscure, uh, you know
, indigenous sangha african cowbreed, and, and and the answer
is, you know, because this cowis, uh, predominantly is lacking
the need for chemical input.
So, you know, I can give mypatient, or, um, you know,

(54:03):
recommend a meat that isunlikely to be contaminated with
anything and is, from an animalethics point of view, thriving
in in all conditions, withoutthe need for intervention yeah,
max, I think you're doing greatwork there.

I mean, they're not a lot of doctors, like you
say.
You actually, you actually seethe link between actually see
the link between how food isproduced and health.
So yeah, and you know I meanyou know, the goonie basically
is the right animal for a lot ofenvironments in Australia.
So I think it's got a bigfuture there.
Yeah, and, like you say,chemical-free meat has got to be

(54:40):
the way to go.
Just have to take a look around.
People aren't healthy.
So you know there's a lot of.

Yeah, and, as you said, you know, eating
diabetic.
You know Wagyu cattle that havebeen, you know know, brushed
and fed in a sling.
You know that's that's not theanswer either, but, uh, you know
, maybe maybe I'm kind ofgetting a little bit grandiose,
but I really think that thissystem that you know we're

(55:17):
talking about is the solution tofeeding the world a healthy
food, because it is that.
You know, on one side you'vegot bill gates, you know doing
industrially sized uh, soyfarming with maximum import, no
animals.
And then I think the polaropposite is what you're doing
and others like jake and brianuh are doing, which is using

(55:41):
these cattle in a regenerativeway, regenerating the land and
supplying your communities withthis food.
So, yeah, I really take the hatoff to you and I think what
you're doing is a real model foreveryone not only in Africa,
but also here in Australia andhopefully US and hopefully
places like El Salvador, whichyou know can have very dry

(56:05):
landscapes and you know there'sso much marginal country in the
world that would benefit fromNguni, I think.

No for sure.
I think you know Meshawna has,which is basically an Nguni.
It's a Zimbabwean versionbasically.
I mean they were probably bredby commercial cattlemen before
the Nguni was sort of adopted bycommercial cattlemen in South
Africa.
So the Mishona was bred for asolid color and they went for
polled animals, which is a bitmore acceptable to the

(56:33):
commercial guy, and I meanMishona all over the warmer
parts of the United States nowand Central and South America.
So then Goonie basically, yeah,I mean there are a lot of sort
of countries where you couldexport Goonie genetics and
they'll do well and they'll.
You know, hans Dueser has beenone of the biggest proponents of

(56:55):
Meshawna in South America,central America and the States.
So I think, yeah, you're goingto see a lot of cattle coming as
much on the genetics in thenear future.
Yeah, so there's a big futurethere for bull as well.
I mean, I don't know if themishawna is popular in Australia

(57:15):
, but I see that uni isdefinitely picking up, yeah, so
that's exciting.

Yeah, definitely .

Cool.
Any final parting thoughts orwords?
Uh, no, max, yeah, I just yeah,I appreciate the opportunity
yeah, yeah, great.

Well, I I think um a lot of farmers, all and
runners will find this valuableand hopefully, what we've talked
about can, uh, yeah, at leastprovoke some thought.
And you know that's what I sayto my patients.
You know, I'm not here to tellyou what to do, I'm just here to
give you options and I I think,uh, yeah, just showing examples
like yours is thought-provoking, if nothing else.
Thank you.

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82. Decentralising Food Production with Nguni Cattle & Regenerative Agriculture

BYRON HINTERLAND RETREAT - Circadian Living by Regenerative Health Retreats

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BYRON HINTERLAND RETREAT - Circadian Living by Regenerative Health Retreats

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