June 8, 2025 • 58 mins
"The future of Food is in Agroforestry" says Tom Bjorkston, the founder of Misty Creek Agroforestry, a regenerative farm in the Northern Rivers of NSW producing beyond organic eggs, chicken and various seasonal crops.
We discuss the cutting edge syntropic and agroforestry practices that Misty Creek are implementing to create a self-sustaining ecosystem that enhances soil health and nutrient density in food production.
The conversation highlights the function of Nguni cattle for regenerative grazing, the challenges of direct-to-consumer model, regulatory nanny state creating regulatory barriers for small scale farmers, the potential for regenerative agriculture to revitalize rural communities and more.
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Introduction to Misty Creek Agroforestry
06:41 Understanding Syntropic Agriculture
13:29 The Role of Animals in Agroforestry
18:19 Cattle and Nutrient Density in Farming
25:36 The Future of Regenerative Agriculture
28:59 The Nguni Cattle: A Resilient Choice for Grazing
37:35 Navigating the Challenges of Direct-to-Consumer Sales
52:42 The Vision for Misty Creek: Building a Sustainable Future
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#agroforestry #syntropicagriculture #regenerativefarming #nutrientdensity #permaculture #ngunicattle #nguni #regenerativeagriculture, #foodsovereignty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Okay, welcome back to the Regenerative Health Podcast
.
Today I am sitting down withTom Bjorksten.
Now he is the founder and ownerand chief farmer of Misty Creek
Agroforestry, which is aregenerative and centropic
agricultural operation here onthe northern rivers of New South
(00:23):
Wales, here on the northernrivers of New South Wales.
So, tom, thank you for joiningme and, yeah, maybe let's start
with a bit about Misty Creek.
Like, what do you guys do?
What is your yeah, chiefoperation?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yep, so our farm's based around our syntropic
agroforestry, so this land usedto be a subtropical rainforest
and basically that's what theland yearns to be.
So what is different about ourfarm and what's unique about it
is this integration of theagroforestry with animals, so
(01:01):
that's chickens and cattle, butalso using those animals and
their biology, their manure, allthat kind of stuff for
horticulture as well, sodirectly integrating our
cropping with animals as well.
And we are a direct-to-marketfarm as well, so everything that
(01:25):
we grow is sold at the localfarmers' markets.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I think the first time I saw your operation must
have been on social media atsome point and there was some
drone footage, and the dronefootage showed rows of trees, of
cropping trees, and you hadchickens in between these rows,
and it was called this idea oftree-range eggs.
And I had it on one of myRegenerate talks because to me
(01:55):
it made so much sense that if wewere creating a holistic and
interdependent biological systemin order to produce not only
the highest quality but the mostamount of food, then it made
sense to me that you would alsohave some form of trees and
plants growing in there.
So can you explain what thoserows are and how they optimize
(02:18):
things?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yep.
So where do I start?
So let's start with.
Chickens are jungle animals.
They're naturally most at homein the forest or on the edges of
forest.
So what we've created with thatagroforestry is exactly that
We've created not exactly aforest, but it's like a constant
(02:43):
interaction between the forestand the edge, because you have
rows of trees with grass inbetween.
So what that means for thechicken is that, yeah, you know
there's a pretty popular pastureraised chicken.
You know people are doing itall over the world and we
haven't reinvented the wheelthere.
(03:03):
We've just kind of taken thatand instead of the chickens
being out in an open paddockwhich, say, in some climates,
especially where pasturedchicken was popularised in North
America, you can get away withit because it's a lot more mild
here in the subtropics it's veryhot, high summer temperatures,
sun directly overhead in summer,so this gives a lot more
(03:28):
comfort to the chickens.
So what this means is that, say, if they're out in an open
paddock, they might only spendthree hours of the day foraging,
so an hour and a half, and thisis in the middle of summer.
So they might only spend anhour and a half, and this is in
the middle of summer, so theymight only spend an hour and a
half foraging in the morning,and then, when it gets hot,
(03:48):
they'll head back into theirshelter.
Same again in the evening.
Now when I put them in theagroforestry, they can spend all
day foraging because they'reconstantly in the shade.
So what that means is thechicken has a happier and
healthier life.
It's spending more timeforaging, it's taking less of
(04:10):
the grain, which is good for mybottom line because it's
expensive.
But it's also better for thechicken because they are getting
a more varied diet.
And then for the consumer itmeans there's more nutrients in
the meat and the eggs because ofmore varied diet, different
forages, different bugs.
They're scratching through themulch, that kind of forest floor
(04:33):
type environment.
Yeah, and to go back a step,it's because I didn't explain
pasture poultry, but the conceptof that is that they have a
mobile caravan, whatever youwant to call it, with electric
(04:56):
fence around it and you'reconstantly moving that to fresh
pasture.
So, again, great for thechickens because they're
constantly getting access tofresh forage grasses, herbs,
insects, what have you.
But it was also good for theland too, because you know, if
you leave the chickens in onespot for too long you're getting
(05:16):
tons of manure in the one spotand then that's going to be
causing problems rather thanbenefiting the land.
So there we have our nice longrows, because we're moving those
with a tractor.
So another kind of part of ourfarm too is trying to have these
animals in very naturalsituations, like mimicking how
(05:41):
they would live naturally, butalso fitting it into our economy
, where you have to be efficientand effective and productive,
basically to make sure you'reprofitable so I can keep
providing people with food.
So the big long rows that meanswe can move them straight,
because every time you turn ittakes a lot longer to move them.
(06:05):
So, and then within those rows,once the chickens have moved on
and often the cattle will comebefore or after them there's
enough manure left that we cancrop vegetables behind them
directly in that area as well.
Crop vegetables behind themdirectly in that area as well.
So then again, your lines helpwith irrigation and just ease of
(06:29):
management, grass managementall that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Can you talk a bit more about this idea of
syntropic agriculture andagroforestry?
Because I guess the next stepfor people who have decided
they're interested in where theywant to eat, what they're going
to eat yes, they've learnedabout regenerative farming, they
understand basic concepts likerotating cattle and not leaving
(06:56):
them in the same areas, but Ifeel like what you're doing and
that's what struck me is thisseems like the next level above,
which is if we're going torecreate natural conditions and
we're living in a subtropical atthe 28th latitude.
It's different to a lot ofother situations where it's just
open grassland.
So what are you actually doingwith this?
(07:16):
What does syntropy mean?
And, yeah, just explain thatconcept for us.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So yeah, so syntropic is basically mimicking the way
that a forest functions.
But if you take it back veryfundamentally, it's actually how
any ecosystem functions andthat's on the principles of
succession.
So naturally, natural systemshave a tendency to go towards
(07:44):
complexity.
They will improve the quantityand quality of biomass.
The ecosystems and the biomassthat makes up it, like the flora
and fauna, will become morecomplex.
So basically we can justharness that to grow without the
need for any inputs.
Because if you think about arainforest, a rainforest doesn't
(08:08):
need fertilizer, it doesn'tneed chemicals, it doesn't need
irrigation, it will just grow onits own.
But in nature it can happenslowly.
So for us understanding thoseprinciples, we can take that and
speed it up massively.
So what that typically means isunderstanding what level of
(08:31):
succession your land is at.
So that determines what speciesyou can grow.
So if we use any example like,say, you want to grow macadamias
and if you just plonk them in afield, if that land's not ready
for the macadamia to grow,that's when you need to prop it
up with fertilizer.
(08:52):
You might need chemicals todeter insect attacks because the
insects are trying to tell youthat your land is not ready for
macadamias.
You might need irrigationbecause the soil is not wet
enough.
So what we do is we findpioneer species that the land
will accept and will grow veryeasily and prolifically without
(09:13):
any inputs, and then we can usethat to create the conditions
for what we do want to grow.
And the management tool we dothat is by pruning.
So what we're planting, we'replanting tons of different
species and some particular onesthat work really well, and then
(09:33):
we're cycling that biomass, sowe're pruning it, put it down on
the ground, and that processmimics how the forest floor
forms and starts creating allthis fungi in the soil and then
we'll create the conditions forwhat we do want to grow.
So we obviously with theaddition of the animals, that is
(09:56):
kind of like another input thatboosts things along.
But I see that as a way of yeah, basically kind of boosting it
along while also providinganother kind of layer to our
business and a very what's theright word, you know like one
(10:16):
that contributes in a reallygood way as well.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So with these rows, I'm guessing, you're growing
both crop species and non-cropspecies, and the crop species
being ones that will obviouslythrive in that area, and the
non-crop species are essentiallylike sacrificial carbon that
you're essentially, I believe,cutting with a machete.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, chainsawing yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, can you talk a bit more about that?
Yeah, chainsaw, and yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Can you talk a bit more about that?
Yeah, so there's kind of twoelements to the system.
So there's the agroforestry, sothere's the trees, and then
there's the horticulture, whichare the veggies.
So they're kept somewhatseparate because we'll go back
to.
You know, we need to beefficient with our harvesting
and planting and all that kindof stuff because at the end of
(11:07):
the day we're a for-profit farmand so our system is very
biodiverse.
There's tons of differentspecies.
But then we will grow a row ofone crop and that will be
Brussels sprouts in between yourtree rows that have a wide
diversity of plants and alsograss as well.
(11:30):
That will have a diversity ofgrasses and legumes and herbs.
So the specific ways of growingthe crops will be yeah, so we
have microclimate creation fromthe trees on either side and
then when I know I want to growsome vegetables, I'll run my
(11:50):
chickens and my cows throughthat area.
Typically the cows first andthen the chickens.
They add all their manure andthen I'll plant the vegetables.
So firstly using the manure ofthose two species.
But then the other criticalthing is growing grasses on
either side.
(12:10):
So that's pretty unique ingrowing vegetables.
Most vegetables are grown inopen soil that's not covered.
So you can either mechanicallyor chemically control weeds.
So what we do is we plant theveggies in rows in the middle
with grass on either side, andthen we're continually cutting
(12:32):
that grass as mulch to mulcharound the base of the plants.
Now that covers the soil, whichmeans we don't need to weed as
the grass mulch breaks down.
It provides a steady drip feedof nutrients, which is how
plants have evolved.
They haven't evolved to havebig hits of chemical fertilizer
(12:55):
that provides heaps of MPK.
They want steady little dripfeeds of all the micro and macro
nutrients, which is whatdecaying organic matter does.
It feeds of all the micro andmacro nutrients, which is what
decaying organic matter does.
And you also have grasses arevery productive in terms of the
amount of root exudates theycreate, so feeding your
underground soil army.
So every time we cut the grasson the side of the veggies, not
(13:18):
only is it providing mulch, itcreates soil as well.
So we're not and this is trulyregenerative agriculture,
because it is you'reregenerating the soil through
the process of farming it.
And yeah, that is wheresyntropic agriculture is unique.
(13:40):
But it's also the biggestchallenge of syntropic
agriculture that not many peoplehave solved of taking it from
this ideal truly regenerativeagriculture to something that
makes business sense.
And for us, the animals play ahuge part of that.
Because any farmers listeningto this might think, oh, that's
a lot of work, and it is, and itcan be challenging in a high
(14:05):
labor cost country like we have.
But you're not exactly.
You're kind of replacing onetype of work with others.
So we don't need to weed and wetypically don't need to
irrigate, we don't need to puton fertilizer, we don't need to
do any sprays.
(14:25):
So there's four jobs that are amassive part of growing any
vegetable crop that we don'tneed to do.
We do need to keep brush,cutting our grass.
So it's like you're replacingone with the other, but instead
of using inputs that come frommultinational corporations come
in a box, come in a drum orwhatever I'm paying a local
(14:45):
person to do that and I'mregenerating the soil and
producing really high qualityfood.
Yeah that sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
And I think about how each of these individual crops
are being farmed in the currentparadigm and it looks nothing
like what you guys are doing.
And again, I'm not sayinganything's better or worse, but
from my point of view, I'minterested in food.
Transparency of the food system, again, is for people to eat
high quality food for theirhealth and, obviously, nutrient
(15:15):
density.
It's pretty clear to me whichagricultural school of thought
or strategy is going to producethe more high quality food.
It's going to be your one,rather than massive set stock
cattle or feedlot cattle or anyform of monocrop plant
production that involves hugequantities of inputs from places
(15:36):
I mean in this area.
You mentioned macadamia.
For those who aren't aware ofmacadamia, it's an indigenous
tree that contains a nut here inAustralia that has a very high
content of omega-9 fatty acids,I believe, but they invariably
(15:56):
all need spraying.
None of these macadamia farmsare anywhere near close to
organic, so consequently,they're needing huge amounts of
inputs.
The advantage, it sounds, ofthis type of system is that
you're creating this trulyvertically integrated,
internally self-sustainingecosystem and environment.
That doesn't need you to havean account with Bayer, with John
(16:20):
Deere, with any of these othercompanies.
My question and this is atechnical one, just about this
strategy.
In a different environmentthat's perhaps more arid with
different soil types, is a formof syntropic agroforestry still
possible, but you would just usedifferent plants.
Or can you explain?
Talk to that.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yep, it is possible because it's based on the
principles of succession, whichwork anywhere, and I can't claim
to be an expert on that becauseI haven't set things up in all
different climates, but I haveseen examples in different
climates.
It's basically, yeah, you'relooking at succession, you're
(16:59):
looking at the species that areoccurring on your land and then
using those.
So I've seen examples inPortugal, where it's too dry to
grow grasses, which I'm usinggrasses to feed my vegetables,
they grow crops like rosemaryand sage and cutting them to put
on the vegetables to providethe same kind of idea and say
(17:22):
for me, we live, you know, know,here it's very wet, it's been
raining non-stop for ages, so Ican grow.
I often grow my brusselssprouts without turning the
irrigation on different climate.
You know, okay, you might beregenerating your land for 30
years before you could dream ofgrowing a crop without
irrigation, whereas I can, kindof within a couple of years, I
can get to that point.
(17:43):
So, um, short answer yes, it'spossible, just you need to.
It's like anything.
There's no recipe, there's aformula that maybe formula is
not the right word.
There's principles that areuniversal, but then it's up to
everyone to understand how toapply them, and that's even with
(18:03):
what works at Misty Creek, notnecessarily work just down the
road, because it's unique to tome and the people that work
there and the land.
People can take inspiration,but you can never copy it yeah,
that that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
can you talk to the cattle that and how you're using
cattle in this system, becauseto me it sounds like it's
something that has beneficial,positive externalities for
everything, which is you'repotentially increasing the
growing capability of the crops,but you're also providing the
cattle with prettynutrient-dense feed Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So, yeah, it's just another vertical integration.
It's kind of, you know, likeI'm building the skyscraper, you
know, just adding another thing, taking a step back, like I
grew up on a large cattle farmin the central west of New South
Wales.
My family's been breedingcattle for over 70 years so feel
(19:03):
very, you know, like I reallylove cattle, so that's that's
part of it too.
But they they help our chickens.
So our main, our main farm isfocused around the.
The farm is focused around thechicken.
That's that's what brings usmost of our income.
They help the chickens in termsof the way that I can use them
(19:25):
to manage the pasture.
So with the type of ultra highdensity grazing where I can
create a very leafy, healthy,nutritious pasture, that means
my chickens are going to havemore nutritious pasture and the
grass grows very rapidly aroundus so it can get up this high
(19:46):
very quickly.
So if I can move the cattlearound and it gets a bit shorter
, the chickens have a betterpick.
So that helps the chickens.
It also helps the crops as wellbecause, say, my Brussels
sprouts plants when they'refinished, a chicken wouldn't
exactly eat that, but a cowwould come and eat that.
(20:06):
So it's just it's.
It's adding the biology to the,to everything.
It's adding like a pleasure.
For me, you know, like it'ssomething that I feel really
good about, and it also actuallypretty much like everything on
our farm is market driven.
So I see a very strong demandfor organic beef.
(20:28):
Not too much organic beefaround, a lot of grass-fed beef,
um.
So yeah, just just you know,any any way that I can see
market opportunities andleverage my existing
infrastructure in terms of coldroom facilities and farmer's
markets I'm already attendingand existing customers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I mean, it makes so much sense to me and I think
that I'm interested in this ideaof, and the common rebuttal to,
eating animal foods because,especially if we're, as doctors
and health practitioners,recommending people eat a really
high-quality diet that includes, necessarily, animal products,
it's you know.
The next question from thepeanut gallery is how do you
feed the world?
(21:13):
And I think that's a reallymisplaced question because
you're trying to solve a globalscale before the local scale,
which doesn't make any sense.
But if we're answering thatquestion, what you're doing
really does answer that questionbecause it's optimizing every
single square centimeter of landfor food production.
(21:33):
And if we replicate your model,obviously with idiosyncratic or
changes that are dependent onwherever people or other farmers
are, changes that are dependenton wherever people or other
farmers are, then you're prettyquickly producing a whole bunch
more food than the industrialmodels or any of these models
about food production even couldcomprehend.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So, yes, something you said just now they're
producing more food but, like so, your industrial system
produces more calories but nonutrients.
So, like a system like mine, itit's so productive and I think
that you know you'd have to lookat it but there are, no, no
(22:19):
question, producing morenutrients and you know, we know
that people are getting enoughcalories for the most part, but
they're not getting.
And you know, we know thatpeople are getting enough
calories for the most part, butthey're not getting enough
nutrients.
So you know there's a wholething.
You know the industrializationof food.
So what I've lived through interms of seeing my family and
(22:40):
what's happened to ruralAustralia, which you know I
believe has been echoed all overthe world, is that when I was
growing up, on the farm was mygrandfather, my dad, my two
uncles, my older brother, allworking on the farm, two or
three full-time employees andseasonal workers.
Now, on the same farm, my dad,one, maybe two workers, same
(23:09):
farm, my dad, one, maybe twoworkers, you know so that that
that land has gone from umhaving what, what did I say?
10 or 12 people working it downto three.
And that's happened all overand that means you know your
villages are going andeverything, and so you say, you
know, then saying oh, we can'tfeed the world, it's, yeah,
because this whole hollowing outof rural society has happened,
that it's necessarily you canonly have one man on a tractor
(23:31):
growing crops and you can't havethese productive systems like
we have, because it's veryreliant on labor.
So, yeah, my father's farm 7,500acres, three employees I have
28 acres.
I have the equivalent of fourfull-time staff.
So there's a lot happening on avery small space.
(23:52):
And the way I see it is,instead of investing millions in
machinery, I'm investing inlocal people, local people
working for me.
So my farm doesn't rely on abig amount of inputs, but it
relies on a lot of labor.
But I'd rather see that themajority of my earnings go
(24:16):
towards paying people's wagesthan say, servicing interest
payments on machinery or payingagricultural companies for
chemicals.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So it requires a whole cultural revolution and
people from the city don'tunderstand it basically, yeah,
and what you're describing isreally echoing what it sounds
like happened with one of thepioneers of this regenerative
agricultural movement inBluffton, georgia, with White
(24:49):
Oak Pastures and their workrestoring their essential
village and township essentiallyhappened because they were able
to employ more people usingthis more human intensive
agricultural practices.
I mean to me the industrial andthe centralized system, it's
(25:09):
pseudo productivity and it'sproducing pseudo nutrition,
whereas what you're doing istrue productivity because it is
producing real nutrition and itis literally regenerating the
land and it's a net benefit tothis commons which, jake you
know, my friend jake wilkie uh,in here australia, talks a lot
about.
Like, what is regenerativefarming?
(25:30):
Something that that actuallyadds to the commons rather than,
rather than detracts from it.
So it's uh, yeah, it's, it'svery elegant and, and again,
it's about working with nature.
These centralized systems aredestructive, they're extractive,
I mean mean, someone put it asstrip mining the soil is kind of
what a lot of monocropagriculture is and that, I think
(25:51):
, is a real fitting saying so.
Let's talk about a specific typeof cattle and I see that you're
wearing your Nguni shirt hereNow Nguni, which are an ecotype
breed of indigenous Africansanga cattle.
They're a bit of my hobby horse.
I'm very enamored with theirability to survive in all kinds
(26:13):
of conditions and if we'retalking about productivity per
square meter of land and we'rethinking about per square meter
of beef production, then theseare kind of the cattle that you
want.
Per square meter of beefproduction, then these are kind
of the cattle that you want.
So talk to me about yourexperience with cattle and what
you're looking at with theseNguni cattle.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, so, yeah, so our farm's certified organic.
So that means that with ourbeef we're looking for a hardy
breed of cattle that can, andnot only we're certified organic
, we're certified organic in aenvironment that's very
difficult to be certifiedorganic because we have high
(26:51):
burdens of parasites.
So a lot of buffalo fly, a lotof ticks, internal parasites
such as worms, liver fluke allhighly prevalent in our area.
And when we started, basicallywhen I made my initial inquiries
, it was it can't be done.
And that's where the Nguni arecompletely central to my
(27:16):
strategy.
And when I initially startedwith cattle and with some other
breeds, I was trying to achievewhat I wanted to achieve with
the grazing and wasn't gettingthe results I wanted, because
this breed has been, you know,thousands of years in Africa of
just harsh selection processes.
No, you know, and there's a lotof parasites in Africa and you
(27:36):
know you survived, you survived,you didn't, you didn't.
So if we're talking aboutspecific traits of the Nguni,
it's that resistance toparasites.
So I've noticed that within myherd that does contain some
other animals and somecrossbreds of Nguni, that the
Nguni and their crossbredsalmost have no buffalo fly on
(28:01):
them whatsoever and they'll bestanding next to breeds of other
cattle that may have 100 oneach side.
Um, they very few ticks, or ifthey do have ticks, they don't
seem to show any sort of problemwith them.
Like the, the cattle maintain afantastic body condition nice,
shiny coat, you know all theindicators of health.
(28:23):
Nevertheless, having some tickson them, they will happily eat
poorer quality forage.
So for a truly regenerativegrazing, you want to be doing a
non-selective grazing, whichmeans you're grazing everything.
They're not leaving anythingbehind.
A British or Euro breed willreally struggle to do that,
(28:47):
whereas an Nguni will be able tomaintain good body condition
whilst doing that.
What else I'm lost now.
But they are just a fantasticanimal and they've basically
allowed us to achieve what wewant to with our grazing, with
(29:08):
our ultra-high density grazingand staying organic, so like low
input and staying in good bodycondition.
Because it can be a prettycommon thing, especially in our
kind of climate, which is notgreat for raising cattle, that
if you've got the wrong breedyou can try this regenerative
grazing and then your cattle dovery poorly.
(29:30):
So I see the Nguni thrivingunder these kind of what I call
it tough love, like I reallydeeply care for my cattle and
look after them really well, butat the same time, I'm also
providing quite a harshselection process on them.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah and look, I'm also providing quite a harsh
selection process on them.
Yeah and look, I'm not a farmerat all, but to me it makes so
much sense that if you aretrying to graze and you're using
an animal that you want thatanimal to be adapted or suited
to the environment you're in.
And in talking to people andtalking to other farmers, it
seems like there's a lot ofinertia and maybe legacy in
(30:07):
agricultural practice, which isthey're using this breed because
their dad used it, becausetheir father used that, and
they're not in fact using ananimal that's adapted to the
country.
And here in Australia, which youhave massive amounts of
marginal country, we've gotmassive swings of weather that
include dry and wet periods, andif you're using a cow that's
adapted to a rainy island in theNorth Atlantic where it's cold
(30:30):
and wet, say like an Angus orHereford, then you're probably
not using the exact one that'sright for the job.
So it seems like a no-brainer,but perhaps it takes someone
who's thinking outside the boxor hasn't been within these
intellectual thinking paradigmsto see that the other facet of
the problem is that if you careabout the ethics of animal
(30:54):
welfare, then why would you havea cow that's going to be
suffering and what you describedwith the buffalo fly.
I mean, I've seen animalssimilar as what you described
side to side, different breeds,and one looks like some kind of
emaciated product of some kindof concentration camp and the
other, the Nguni, is thriving.
(31:14):
It's the same environment but adifferent animal, and
incredible to make that much ofa difference.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, so there's a lot of.
You know you can, like Imentioned with the syntropic
agroforestry if you don't havethe right conditions for your
plant, you're going to have toprop it up fertilizers,
chemicals, irrigations.
It's the exact same withanimals.
If you don't have the rightconditions, you can get away
with it regular deing, chemicaltreatments for buffalo, fly
(31:46):
dipping for ticks, so you cancontrol it.
And I think that's part of whyless people have not adapted
this kind of breed, because youcan kind of skirt around it and
you can selectively graze aswell, so you allow your cattle
to take the best of everything,so they're getting the best
nutrition.
So we're pushing them tonon-selectively graze, which
(32:07):
means they're not getting thebest of everything.
It's much better for thepasture.
But once you get that cycle,it's not as if the cow's getting
, you know, a really poorquality diet.
But it is essential that theyhave that nutritional adaptation
to take poor quality forage,have that nutritional adaptation
to take poor quality forage.
So yeah, we have these crutchesthat can enable producers to
(32:31):
get through or get past thatlack of adaptation.
A lot of it is market-driventoo in terms of what people
desire from their beef.
So you know, while the yooni isincredible in all these reasons
.
We've just uh spoke about um itbecause of the way it's been
selected over, you know,thousands of years in africa.
(32:53):
It's not been for eatingquality, it's been for uh
resilience and able to thrive inharsh conditions.
So, and that's where acrossbreeding program can come
in you can get the resilience,the nutritional adaptation, but
you can add some of the carcassquality of the other breeds and
get the best of both worlds.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, like thinking about this and really maybe
giving some more context to thediscussion is and I don't think
necessarily all you know, allfarmers need to go to start
breeding purebred and goonie,and really there's reasons for
that.
And the commodity market thatwe're discussing, it prizes a
(33:35):
black cow and that is you know.
Someone described it asinterestingly put it it's
amazing that a grown man, youknow, is choosing a cow based on
the color.
It's like a kid wants the redtoy.
It's like these farmers wantthe black cow and, for better or
for worse, that's essentiallythe reality of the market.
And the other reasons whyAnguni aren't selected is
(33:56):
they've got a small carcassframe.
They often have horns.
So there's all these reasonsthat a commodity purchaser might
not want this type of cow.
But, as we were talking aboutbefore, we pressed record is
that you are catering to adifferent type of market and
that is a market that perhaps meand people who are listening to
this podcast are interested in,which is really pure, quality
(34:19):
food with extreme transparencyand provenance and complete
guarantee that there's nochemical additive or input into
our food.
And when the skin comes off,all the beef looks the same and
I think my personal opinion isthe grass feeding is the most
important kind of aspect to goodquality tasting beef and maybe
(34:41):
hanging the carcass.
So we as consumers don't seethat as a problem but totally it
does make sense if you're alsowanting to remain financially
viable to use this breed in across, that also makes a lot of
sense.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah.
So there's just the marketrealities around that and yeah,
it depends what market you wantto meet.
So personally I want to try andbridge the two markets.
So the more traditional onethat's going to be like, say,
their number one trade istenderness and marbling, which
(35:21):
the Yunguni are not known forand it's also difficult in these
kind of environments we're in,whereas, because we're in very
high rainfall rainforestenvironment, our soils are
typically poorer because theproductivity of these
environments is held in thebiomass, not the soil itself
(35:50):
biomass, not the soil itself.
Whereas if you go further outwest, you have better soil
because you're not getting theleaching from the higher
rainfall, which means you havehigher nutrition grass.
And to give that some kind ofcontext, like a lot of good
producers in west of the GreatDividing Range, they might be
putting on 1.5 to 2 kilos a dayon their cattle, whereas here,
like the best that I could hopefor and I think I'm doing a
pretty good job is probably like0.8 kilos a day and that's just
(36:15):
a function of the environment.
But I think that in Goonee andmy cattle model is following two
kind of complementary avenuesis that I'm looking to get into
start selling breeding stock butalso beef.
(36:37):
So the purebred Nguni plays abig role in that, because if you
want crossbreds, you need tohave pure animals as well.
So I'd like to build up my herdof pure Nguni, but then I'll
also be crossbreeding as well tohopefully provide the kind of
beef that people like you and I,that your number one criteria
is grass-fed and the amazingflavor that comes with that, but
(36:59):
also the knowledge that you'refeeding your family
nutrient-dense, clean, organic.
Not everyone is.
The biggest criteria is organic, but for some organic food and
crossing that market with thattenderness and that kind of
stuff, hopefully I can get there.
(37:21):
It's still like cattle is alifetime of work and I'm still a
couple of years in, so yeah,it's still got a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
It's really exciting stuff.
Let's change track now to talkabout this challenge of selling
directly to the consumer,because my impression of
agriculture is that the easy wayis to sell into this commodity
market, be a price taker, dothings the conventional way, use
the black cows, use thedrenches and all the other
(37:51):
chemical inputs and it's thedifficult path is to go out on
your own and kind of carve outyour own market demand and doing
kind of what you're doing.
So talk about these challengesand how you see them and what
you're doing so like what talkabout these challenges and how
you see them and and what you'redoing to overcome them.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, because it's.
It's well.
Geez, where do I start?
It's such a huge, such a hugetopic, you know, because not
every farmer is a naturalsalesman or a natural
businessman as well and there'sso many different factors.
Like you know, our and I, themodel that we've pursued has
(38:33):
worked.
Because of where we are,because we're in the northern
rivers, because I would besurprised if there's a stronger
farmers market culture anywhereelse in the country, a stronger
farmer's market culture anywhereelse in the country, possibly
even the world.
Where else can you go to areally strong farmer's market
six days of the week?
At the furthest you drive is anhour.
(38:54):
That I can have a businessthat's providing myself and
others a living by going tothree farmer's markets every
week.
I think that's pretty unique.
So that gives me someadvantages in terms of kind of
what scale I need to achieve.
Because you know, for somereason, farming is like I don't
(39:19):
know, maybe it's like soromanticized on social media and
there's that really big back tothe land movement that for some
reason people think they'reimmune to this.
You know needing a certainamount of sales to make a living
, that you know that you canhave a great kind of profit
margin on, say, like oneindividual chicken or one
(39:39):
individual box of eggs.
But then you need to rememberthat to make a living you need
to make about $80,000 a year.
So yeah, just trying to getthat scale right.
And the way that I kind of didit after the initial kind of
market testing phases was tofigure out, okay, what number do
(40:04):
I need to create the standardof living that I want to have?
And then okay, so, and then Ifound that number and then now
that I have a good idea of whatI can sell things for and what
the costs are, then you kind ofwork backwards from there and
then you get your.
You get what you need to sell,you get what you need to sell
(40:25):
and it's, yeah, it requires agood strategy, understanding of
the market, but the red tape canbe really difficult as well.
That's a major challenge,especially for livestock
producers.
Everyone all over the countrywill tell you that you know.
The major is you know if youwant to sell meat it has to go
(41:00):
through a licensed facility, andthose licensed facilities are
shutting out small producersbecause they see
paddock-to-plate producers asthreatening the status quo of
the meat supply.
People all of a sudden areavoiding the supermarkets and
whatnot.
How can they stop that?
Stop doing service kills Prettyeasy actually.
That was a pretty broadquestion If you want me to delve
into anything in detail.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yes, absolutely.
These are food supply chainchoke points.
They're being enabled andmaintained by regulatory capture
.
If people understood more thenI think they would be the
pitchforks and the torches, butat the moment, people don't
understand the process by whichtheir food is made and they're
not realizing that they'reessentially being deprived from
(41:42):
sourcing food directly from afarm that's been killed and
processed on that farm, becauseindustry has influenced
regulation to make it difficultfor you to do that on-farm
processing, and it's trulybizarre and makes no logical
sense, because it's the 21stcentury, it's 2025.
We have the technology tomaintain high quality hygiene
(42:04):
and food standards anywhere andit would be very, very easy to
do that, say, on your propertyor anyone else's property.
But these archaic you could saycorrupt laws are preventing us
from accessing your produce thatyou've killed on the farm and
us as consumers.
We have to pay more becauseyour fuel costs, your labor
costs, your transport costs allhave to be built in to the price
(42:27):
that we pay for that beef.
It's pretty bad and I feel likeit needs to be more of a big
deal than people are making out.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, and there are some people making some noise
about it, which is good,australian Food Sovereignty
Alliance being one of them, butit's been happening for a long
time.
Like I mentioned earlier, myfamily's been involved with beef
for many, many years and my dadsaid 50 years ago he could have
(42:56):
a choice of abattoirs wherehe'd send his cattle within a
three-hour drive.
He had all these differenttowns that he could choose
between.
Now his nearest avatar is fivehours away.
Same for us with the chickens.
We had one that was 10 minutesdown the road, now the nearest
one's four hours.
And you know whether that is anongoing thing as well is
(43:17):
something that's you know it'sdifficult and I think that, yeah
, like all of our customers arefully across this kind of stuff,
but I think your average punterin the city actually just has
they have no idea what of ofwhat's at stake, that that there
is this like independent, yeah,food sovereignty, like being
(43:39):
able to, and it goes back to avery personal level in terms of
like why can't people eat thefood that they choose to eat?
So, basically, the governmentis saying that we're deciding
what food you can and cannot eat, and why are adults being
dictated what they cannot eat?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's completely absurd and it's profound,
unreasonable intrusion into theprivate life and decisions of
independent, competent adults.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
You can smoke, you can drink why, can't you choose
what food you want?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Exactly Vaping.
We talk about consent inmedicine.
People have the right todecline all kinds of reasonable
treatments, yet we'reessentially barred from
consuming food in its naturalstate.
So I personally think thisneeds to be an issue for
everyone that they raise withtheir local member, like on a
(44:37):
really, really local level yourlocal state member, federal
member.
I mean this is one of thebiggest issues.
I mean we're seeing theencroachment of the
pharmaceutical industry.
The past five years we've seenit encroached into human health.
We won't necessarily talk aboutthat, but in veterinary health
we're only kind of one disasteraway biosecurity disaster away
(44:59):
from the mandating of mandatedpharmaceutical inputs.
The mandating of mandatedpharmaceutical inputs and if
you've got a, you know otherregulations included.
You know herd tagging orwhatsoever.
Or you mandate vaccinecertificates prior to processing
and abattoirs.
You know pretty quickly youcan't easily obtain beef that's
(45:20):
pure as the way our ancestorshave eaten it for you know
millions of years.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
I think that what's importantabout this is that theoretically
, we're in a capitalist society,so if people want this, they
should be able to have it.
That's kind of how supply anddemand works.
I also think that it should bea bipartisan issue too like it's
(45:49):
conservatives because we'vetalked about earlier the decline
of rural areas and towns byproviding jobs again and not
just jobs, but dignified jobsand jobs that people love, not
just crappy jobs.
So, yeah, I'm not one that I'mnot like a big thinker of these
(46:19):
in terms of what the solution is, I don't know.
I'm just kind of like puttingmy head down and hopefully I can
kind of, you know, produce thisfood in a way and, you know,
provide an example andinspiration for others and
provide the food that peoplewant.
And you know, I'm going to betrying my hardest to kind of get
this food to people's plates inthe way that they want it.
(46:40):
And if I can think of new,newer, novel ideas, hopefully I
can and, yeah, that will comeout along the way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
It really is such a big issue, this regulation, and
I think it was Tolstoy who wroteyou might not be interested in
war, but war is interested inyou.
I think in this setting we cansay you might not be and maybe
talking to the audience here youmight not be interested in
regulation, but if you want toeat pure beef, regulation is
interested in you.
So I think it's us as consumersand I mean you're doing the
(47:12):
hard work to produce thisquality food but it's us as
consumers who need toessentially be the ones with the
pitchforks and the torches atour MPs' offices metaphorically
speaking, not literally speakingand demanding change and severe
deregulation of agriculturalproduction.
I mean, from my personal pointof view, I would like to see
(47:35):
on-farm killing and processingso I can buy the beef from you.
I know the cow hasn't traveledfar, it hasn't been in distress.
I would like to see sales, farmgate sales of dairy products
that don't have to go throughindustrial producers and
manufacturers like Parmalat,fonterra, all these companies
(47:57):
and access to other forms offruit and vegetables.
Whatever I feel like I want asa consumer.
I mean, those to me are basichuman rights that we aren't
essentially having access toright now.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, and what I think is that you know so the
anyone who wants to defend theregulations will say well, you
know what's to stop someone fromyou know being really
unhygienic and you know givingout dangerous food.
And then it comes back to likeare we treating everyone like
they're an idiot?
You know so.
Um, you could, someone couldcome to my farm and they step
(48:36):
inside my processing room andthey see how spic and span
everything is, how clean it is.
You look at the chicken and itdoesn't smell like it's off, and
you know.
And then you eat it and thenyou're like okay, cool, this is
I.
I don't need to see a piece ofpaper that this fellow's ticked,
because I can look at his farm,I can see the produce, I can
(48:58):
eat it and I know that he'sdoing a good job.
So I think that you know and Iread some of the other days like
farming automatically makes youa libertarian, because you're
kind of like you know why can'twe make these decisions for
ourselves?
Um, you know, it's kind of likewhen you're at a lookout or
something and it's like don'tstep off the cliff, like yeah,
(49:18):
duh, so, yeah.
So I think that there's a andit's happening and I hope it
will step out from being nicheto slightly less niche.
That, yeah, that people cancome to these farms, they can
see how we operate, but most ofall, use their common sense.
And what will happen is, ifyou're not doing a good job as a
(49:43):
farmer, you'll be weeded out.
You won't have return customers, your business won't thrive.
Kaput You're doing, it's aself-regulating system.
Yeah, yeah, you're doing a goodjob.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, it is.
It's totally self-regulatingand we don't need regulation and
government in there to do thatfor us.
I mean, the arguments about onprosteri is one that have been
covered in other podcasts andother people and I'll make a
quick comment on it from amedical point of view.
And I'll make a quick commenton it from a medical point of
view.
(50:14):
The outbreaks of listeriosis,that's the common kind of big
disease that gets brought upwhen we're talking about lack of
pasteurization.
I mean the big outbreaks oflisteriosis, especially in the
US, are in industrial processingfacilities and it's of alfalfa
or some other plant.
It's very, very rarely from um,from raw, from milk itself.
(50:35):
And it comes back to provenanceand, as you say, the, the
producer.
If you, if there's a dodgyproducer doing the wrong thing
and he's leaving his produce outfor days and then trying to
sell it, that's going to prettyquickly spread through the,
through the community and thatyou're not going to get business
anymore.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, yeah, and then so you know, and why would you
buy something that?
So, yeah, so maybe it comesback to increasing people's
education around food.
And you know, I think we'repretty blessed to live in an
area where people do have a veryhigh education around food and
(51:13):
what's good quality and whatisn't.
So, yeah, then I guess there'sprobably systems of so okay, so
it's not feasible for everyoneto come and look at the farm,
because you know, if you live inBrisbane or Sydney or whatever,
how do you do that?
So how do we bridge that gapwithout?
(51:33):
Oh, yeah, I guess we're goingback to local systems then, and
that's, if we can get back tolocal systems, that's how all of
this thrives.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that's the essence and
that's something that I've beentalking about for a while on my
channel and, if anyone'sinterested, go and check out my
podcast with Texas Slim, jakeWolke, david Bushell, brian
Usher, right at the beginning ofthe channel.
And yeah, the theme isdecentralization and local food
(52:03):
production and local foodconsumption and tying this into
the circadian quantum health,for anyone who's interested in
how this relates to that.
Well, you want to be consumingphotosynthetic products that are
most proximate to your location, and that is because your
mitochondria are going to belooking for synchrony or
(52:24):
coherence between the inputsthat you're giving them in the
form of the light and thetemperature signals, as well as
the food signals, and they marryup if you're essentially
consuming local food.
So there's a massive healthcase for local food consumption.
So maybe, tom, talk to us aboutwhat your vision is for Misty
(52:45):
Creek going forward.
What are you excited about?
What are you building towardsat the moment?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So our farm is six years old now, so we've been
through, yeah, like, a lot ofgrowth phases and a lot of
investment phases.
So what I'm looking for now isto kind of, uh like, mature the
business a little bit, so kindof move from that yeah
investment phase where there's,you know, you're constantly
(53:13):
reinvesting everything back inthe business, to trying to
mature that and basically makeit more profitable, because I've
spent six years investing andit's still going.
That's the kind of overarchingtheme.
Specifically, we spoke aboutthe cattle.
(53:33):
So I'm developing the cattlebecause of what we've spoken
about, all these regulations andwhatnot.
I see diversity, not justbiodiversity on my farm, but
diversity in my product offeringis very central in terms of the
risk of my business.
So you know, if for some reason, say I have no ability to
(53:54):
process my chickens in a legalway, then not all hope is lost.
Another avenue I've justplanted a number of kiwi fruits
in the agroforestry, so I'mhoping that that's going to be
another good avenue for us,because, again, it's something
(54:15):
that it grows on either sides ofthe Brussels sprouts.
The chickens and the cows moveunderneath it.
I've just added another productthat is using what's already
there to grow it better andit'll help.
So you know, like I'll go tothe brussels sprouts to care for
(54:36):
the brussels sprouts, but whileI'm there I can also care for
the kiwi fruits.
Um, so it, it, everything is acontinuous feedback loop.
So, yeah, they're the two mainthings.
So like adding adding a coupleof targeted market-driven
product lines that add someresilience to my business and I
(54:59):
can sell through the same saleschannels.
And then, yeah, maturing so Ican make a living from the farm,
a sustainable living.
The employees on the farm dotoo.
And yeah, that we can continueto provide the community with
food for a long time, because,you know, I do see a high churn
(55:22):
turnover rate within small-scaleregenerative farms.
So, you know, I'm kind ofreally in this for the long haul
and I believe what we'reputting in place will enable me
to do that.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, amazing.
And obviously your food is soldand sold out very close to home
, so people aren't going to behaving probably tasted it if
you're listening to this, but Ican personally attest to its
delicious flavor of chickens andeggs.
So, yeah, thanks for what youdo, Tom, we appreciate it.
Any parting thoughts that youwant to share with everyone?
(55:56):
And, yeah, let us know howpeople can get in contact with
you if they want to discussthings.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, so yeah, most people listening probably
haven't tried it too, becausethat's been something we've
consciously chosen is to selleverything at the farmer's
markets, and you know I getbombarded all the time.
Do you ship to Sydney?
Do you ship to Melbourne?
No, we're focused on the localthing.
And actually it was just whatyou said about the quantum
circadian, like what'sphotosynthesizing around you,
(56:26):
synchronizing with yourselves,like that's amazing, and just
what my personal livedexperience is with the kind of
um, like the health and vigorthat I live, my life and the way
I consume, like I candefinitely resonate with that um
.
So, you know, I I think partingthoughts is, you know, if you,
if you're listening to this andit resonates with you, just find
(56:50):
some local farmers, supportthem, because that's where this
revolution is going to come.
And if someone can, you know,take an extra five to 10 minutes
out of their day to drive to alocal farm, or, you know, take
your Saturday morning to go to afarmer's market and educate
yourself on, you know, what youcan buy, that's going to support
(57:13):
a farmer and support a local,decentralized system, then do
that because it's not just a howdo I say it like philanthropic
thing that you're like, oh,let's go help these poor farmers
.
It's like you're doingsomething for yourself as well
and the thing that, yeah, likeour farm, continuous feedback
(57:33):
loops.
You do something good foryourself, you do something good
for them and it helps everyone.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah, well said.
Thanks, tom, and you'reobviously on Instagram.
Is there any other?
You don't have a website.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
No, we don't have a website because, like I said,
everything's sold at thefarmer's markets.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah, so if people are interested at all, can they
DM you on Instagram or are yourDMs closed?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
No, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, reach out to us on
Instagram Misty CreekAgroforestry yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Fantastic, great Well , thank you very much, tom.
It was great to talk and I lookforward with anticipation to
see.
Okay, welcome back to the Regenerative Health Podcast
.
Today I am sitting down withTom Bjorksten.
Now he is the founder and ownerand chief farmer of Misty Creek
Agroforestry, which is aregenerative and centropic
agricultural operation here onthe northern rivers of New South
(00:23):
Wales, here on the northernrivers of New South Wales.
So, tom, thank you for joiningme and, yeah, maybe let's start
with a bit about Misty Creek.
Like, what do you guys do?
What is your yeah, chiefoperation?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yep, so our farm's based around our syntropic
agroforestry, so this land usedto be a subtropical rainforest
and basically that's what theland yearns to be.
So what is different about ourfarm and what's unique about it
is this integration of theagroforestry with animals, so
(01:01):
that's chickens and cattle, butalso using those animals and
their biology, their manure, allthat kind of stuff for
horticulture as well, sodirectly integrating our
cropping with animals as well.
And we are a direct-to-marketfarm as well, so everything that
(01:25):
we grow is sold at the localfarmers' markets.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I think the first time I saw your operation must
have been on social media atsome point and there was some
drone footage, and the dronefootage showed rows of trees, of
cropping trees, and you hadchickens in between these rows,
and it was called this idea oftree-range eggs.
And I had it on one of myRegenerate talks because to me
(01:55):
it made so much sense that if wewere creating a holistic and
interdependent biological systemin order to produce not only
the highest quality but the mostamount of food, then it made
sense to me that you would alsohave some form of trees and
plants growing in there.
So can you explain what thoserows are and how they optimize
(02:18):
things?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yep.
So where do I start?
So let's start with.
Chickens are jungle animals.
They're naturally most at homein the forest or on the edges of
forest.
So what we've created with thatagroforestry is exactly that
We've created not exactly aforest, but it's like a constant
(02:43):
interaction between the forestand the edge, because you have
rows of trees with grass inbetween.
So what that means for thechicken is that, yeah, you know
there's a pretty popular pastureraised chicken.
You know people are doing itall over the world and we
haven't reinvented the wheelthere.
(03:03):
We've just kind of taken thatand instead of the chickens
being out in an open paddockwhich, say, in some climates,
especially where pasturedchicken was popularised in North
America, you can get away withit because it's a lot more mild
here in the subtropics it's veryhot, high summer temperatures,
sun directly overhead in summer,so this gives a lot more
(03:28):
comfort to the chickens.
So what this means is that, say, if they're out in an open
paddock, they might only spendthree hours of the day foraging,
so an hour and a half, and thisis in the middle of summer.
So they might only spend anhour and a half, and this is in
the middle of summer, so theymight only spend an hour and a
half foraging in the morning,and then, when it gets hot,
(03:48):
they'll head back into theirshelter.
Same again in the evening.
Now when I put them in theagroforestry, they can spend all
day foraging because they'reconstantly in the shade.
So what that means is thechicken has a happier and
healthier life.
It's spending more timeforaging, it's taking less of
(04:10):
the grain, which is good for mybottom line because it's
expensive.
But it's also better for thechicken because they are getting
a more varied diet.
And then for the consumer itmeans there's more nutrients in
the meat and the eggs because ofmore varied diet, different
forages, different bugs.
They're scratching through themulch, that kind of forest floor
(04:33):
type environment.
Yeah, and to go back a step,it's because I didn't explain
pasture poultry, but the conceptof that is that they have a
mobile caravan, whatever youwant to call it, with electric
(04:56):
fence around it and you'reconstantly moving that to fresh
pasture.
So, again, great for thechickens because they're
constantly getting access tofresh forage grasses, herbs,
insects, what have you.
But it was also good for theland too, because you know, if
you leave the chickens in onespot for too long you're getting
(05:16):
tons of manure in the one spotand then that's going to be
causing problems rather thanbenefiting the land.
So there we have our nice longrows, because we're moving those
with a tractor.
So another kind of part of ourfarm too is trying to have these
animals in very naturalsituations, like mimicking how
(05:41):
they would live naturally, butalso fitting it into our economy
, where you have to be efficientand effective and productive,
basically to make sure you'reprofitable so I can keep
providing people with food.
So the big long rows that meanswe can move them straight,
because every time you turn ittakes a lot longer to move them.
(06:05):
So, and then within those rows,once the chickens have moved on
and often the cattle will comebefore or after them there's
enough manure left that we cancrop vegetables behind them
directly in that area as well.
Crop vegetables behind themdirectly in that area as well.
So then again, your lines helpwith irrigation and just ease of
(06:29):
management, grass managementall that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Can you talk a bit more about this idea of
syntropic agriculture andagroforestry?
Because I guess the next stepfor people who have decided
they're interested in where theywant to eat, what they're going
to eat yes, they've learnedabout regenerative farming, they
understand basic concepts likerotating cattle and not leaving
(06:56):
them in the same areas, but Ifeel like what you're doing and
that's what struck me is thisseems like the next level above,
which is if we're going torecreate natural conditions and
we're living in a subtropical atthe 28th latitude.
It's different to a lot ofother situations where it's just
open grassland.
So what are you actually doingwith this?
(07:16):
What does syntropy mean?
And, yeah, just explain thatconcept for us.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So yeah, so syntropic is basically mimicking the way
that a forest functions.
But if you take it back veryfundamentally, it's actually how
any ecosystem functions andthat's on the principles of
succession.
So naturally, natural systemshave a tendency to go towards
(07:44):
complexity.
They will improve the quantityand quality of biomass.
The ecosystems and the biomassthat makes up it, like the flora
and fauna, will become morecomplex.
So basically we can justharness that to grow without the
need for any inputs.
Because if you think about arainforest, a rainforest doesn't
(08:08):
need fertilizer, it doesn'tneed chemicals, it doesn't need
irrigation, it will just grow onits own.
But in nature it can happenslowly.
So for us understanding thoseprinciples, we can take that and
speed it up massively.
So what that typically means isunderstanding what level of
(08:31):
succession your land is at.
So that determines what speciesyou can grow.
So if we use any example like,say, you want to grow macadamias
and if you just plonk them in afield, if that land's not ready
for the macadamia to grow,that's when you need to prop it
up with fertilizer.
(08:52):
You might need chemicals todeter insect attacks because the
insects are trying to tell youthat your land is not ready for
macadamias.
You might need irrigationbecause the soil is not wet
enough.
So what we do is we findpioneer species that the land
will accept and will grow veryeasily and prolifically without
(09:13):
any inputs, and then we can usethat to create the conditions
for what we do want to grow.
And the management tool we dothat is by pruning.
So what we're planting, we'replanting tons of different
species and some particular onesthat work really well, and then
(09:33):
we're cycling that biomass, sowe're pruning it, put it down on
the ground, and that processmimics how the forest floor
forms and starts creating allthis fungi in the soil and then
we'll create the conditions forwhat we do want to grow.
So we obviously with theaddition of the animals, that is
(09:56):
kind of like another input thatboosts things along.
But I see that as a way of yeah, basically kind of boosting it
along while also providinganother kind of layer to our
business and a very what's theright word, you know like one
(10:16):
that contributes in a reallygood way as well.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
So with these rows, I'm guessing, you're growing
both crop species and non-cropspecies, and the crop species
being ones that will obviouslythrive in that area, and the
non-crop species are essentiallylike sacrificial carbon that
you're essentially, I believe,cutting with a machete.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, chainsawing yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah, can you talk a bit more about that?
Yeah, chainsaw, and yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Can you talk a bit more about that?
Yeah, so there's kind of twoelements to the system.
So there's the agroforestry, sothere's the trees, and then
there's the horticulture, whichare the veggies.
So they're kept somewhatseparate because we'll go back
to.
You know, we need to beefficient with our harvesting
and planting and all that kindof stuff because at the end of
(11:07):
the day we're a for-profit farmand so our system is very
biodiverse.
There's tons of differentspecies.
But then we will grow a row ofone crop and that will be
Brussels sprouts in between yourtree rows that have a wide
diversity of plants and alsograss as well.
(11:30):
That will have a diversity ofgrasses and legumes and herbs.
So the specific ways of growingthe crops will be yeah, so we
have microclimate creation fromthe trees on either side and
then when I know I want to growsome vegetables, I'll run my
(11:50):
chickens and my cows throughthat area.
Typically the cows first andthen the chickens.
They add all their manure andthen I'll plant the vegetables.
So firstly using the manure ofthose two species.
But then the other criticalthing is growing grasses on
either side.
(12:10):
So that's pretty unique ingrowing vegetables.
Most vegetables are grown inopen soil that's not covered.
So you can either mechanicallyor chemically control weeds.
So what we do is we plant theveggies in rows in the middle
with grass on either side, andthen we're continually cutting
(12:32):
that grass as mulch to mulcharound the base of the plants.
Now that covers the soil, whichmeans we don't need to weed as
the grass mulch breaks down.
It provides a steady drip feedof nutrients, which is how
plants have evolved.
They haven't evolved to havebig hits of chemical fertilizer
(12:55):
that provides heaps of MPK.
They want steady little dripfeeds of all the micro and macro
nutrients, which is whatdecaying organic matter does.
It feeds of all the micro andmacro nutrients, which is what
decaying organic matter does.
And you also have grasses arevery productive in terms of the
amount of root exudates theycreate, so feeding your
underground soil army.
So every time we cut the grasson the side of the veggies, not
(13:18):
only is it providing mulch, itcreates soil as well.
So we're not and this is trulyregenerative agriculture,
because it is you'reregenerating the soil through
the process of farming it.
And yeah, that is wheresyntropic agriculture is unique.
(13:40):
But it's also the biggestchallenge of syntropic
agriculture that not many peoplehave solved of taking it from
this ideal truly regenerativeagriculture to something that
makes business sense.
And for us, the animals play ahuge part of that.
Because any farmers listeningto this might think, oh, that's
a lot of work, and it is, and itcan be challenging in a high
(14:05):
labor cost country like we have.
But you're not exactly.
You're kind of replacing onetype of work with others.
So we don't need to weed and wetypically don't need to
irrigate, we don't need to puton fertilizer, we don't need to
do any sprays.
(14:25):
So there's four jobs that are amassive part of growing any
vegetable crop that we don'tneed to do.
We do need to keep brush,cutting our grass.
So it's like you're replacingone with the other, but instead
of using inputs that come frommultinational corporations come
in a box, come in a drum orwhatever I'm paying a local
(14:45):
person to do that and I'mregenerating the soil and
producing really high qualityfood.
Yeah that sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
And I think about how each of these individual crops
are being farmed in the currentparadigm and it looks nothing
like what you guys are doing.
And again, I'm not sayinganything's better or worse, but
from my point of view, I'minterested in food.
Transparency of the food system, again, is for people to eat
high quality food for theirhealth and, obviously, nutrient
(15:15):
density.
It's pretty clear to me whichagricultural school of thought
or strategy is going to producethe more high quality food.
It's going to be your one,rather than massive set stock
cattle or feedlot cattle or anyform of monocrop plant
production that involves hugequantities of inputs from places
(15:36):
I mean in this area.
You mentioned macadamia.
For those who aren't aware ofmacadamia, it's an indigenous
tree that contains a nut here inAustralia that has a very high
content of omega-9 fatty acids,I believe, but they invariably
(15:56):
all need spraying.
None of these macadamia farmsare anywhere near close to
organic, so consequently,they're needing huge amounts of
inputs.
The advantage, it sounds, ofthis type of system is that
you're creating this trulyvertically integrated,
internally self-sustainingecosystem and environment.
That doesn't need you to havean account with Bayer, with John
(16:20):
Deere, with any of these othercompanies.
My question and this is atechnical one, just about this
strategy.
In a different environmentthat's perhaps more arid with
different soil types, is a formof syntropic agroforestry still
possible, but you would just usedifferent plants.
Or can you explain?
Talk to that.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yep, it is possible because it's based on the
principles of succession, whichwork anywhere, and I can't claim
to be an expert on that becauseI haven't set things up in all
different climates, but I haveseen examples in different
climates.
It's basically, yeah, you'relooking at succession, you're
(16:59):
looking at the species that areoccurring on your land and then
using those.
So I've seen examples inPortugal, where it's too dry to
grow grasses, which I'm usinggrasses to feed my vegetables,
they grow crops like rosemaryand sage and cutting them to put
on the vegetables to providethe same kind of idea and say
(17:22):
for me, we live, you know, know,here it's very wet, it's been
raining non-stop for ages, so Ican grow.
I often grow my brusselssprouts without turning the
irrigation on different climate.
You know, okay, you might beregenerating your land for 30
years before you could dream ofgrowing a crop without
irrigation, whereas I can, kindof within a couple of years, I
can get to that point.
(17:43):
So, um, short answer yes, it'spossible, just you need to.
It's like anything.
There's no recipe, there's aformula that maybe formula is
not the right word.
There's principles that areuniversal, but then it's up to
everyone to understand how toapply them, and that's even with
(18:03):
what works at Misty Creek, notnecessarily work just down the
road, because it's unique to tome and the people that work
there and the land.
People can take inspiration,but you can never copy it yeah,
that that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
can you talk to the cattle that and how you're using
cattle in this system, becauseto me it sounds like it's
something that has beneficial,positive externalities for
everything, which is you'repotentially increasing the
growing capability of the crops,but you're also providing the
cattle with prettynutrient-dense feed Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So, yeah, it's just another vertical integration.
It's kind of, you know, likeI'm building the skyscraper, you
know, just adding another thing, taking a step back, like I
grew up on a large cattle farmin the central west of New South
Wales.
My family's been breedingcattle for over 70 years so feel
(19:03):
very, you know, like I reallylove cattle, so that's that's
part of it too.
But they they help our chickens.
So our main, our main farm isfocused around the.
The farm is focused around thechicken.
That's that's what brings usmost of our income.
They help the chickens in termsof the way that I can use them
(19:25):
to manage the pasture.
So with the type of ultra highdensity grazing where I can
create a very leafy, healthy,nutritious pasture, that means
my chickens are going to havemore nutritious pasture and the
grass grows very rapidly aroundus so it can get up this high
(19:46):
very quickly.
So if I can move the cattlearound and it gets a bit shorter
, the chickens have a betterpick.
So that helps the chickens.
It also helps the crops as wellbecause, say, my Brussels
sprouts plants when they'refinished, a chicken wouldn't
exactly eat that, but a cowwould come and eat that.
(20:06):
So it's just it's.
It's adding the biology to the,to everything.
It's adding like a pleasure.
For me, you know, like it'ssomething that I feel really
good about, and it also actuallypretty much like everything on
our farm is market driven.
So I see a very strong demandfor organic beef.
(20:28):
Not too much organic beefaround, a lot of grass-fed beef,
um.
So yeah, just just you know,any any way that I can see
market opportunities andleverage my existing
infrastructure in terms of coldroom facilities and farmer's
markets I'm already attendingand existing customers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I mean, it makes so much sense to me and I think
that I'm interested in this ideaof, and the common rebuttal to,
eating animal foods because,especially if we're, as doctors
and health practitioners,recommending people eat a really
high-quality diet that includes, necessarily, animal products,
it's you know.
The next question from thepeanut gallery is how do you
feed the world?
(21:13):
And I think that's a reallymisplaced question because
you're trying to solve a globalscale before the local scale,
which doesn't make any sense.
But if we're answering thatquestion, what you're doing
really does answer that questionbecause it's optimizing every
single square centimeter of landfor food production.
(21:33):
And if we replicate your model,obviously with idiosyncratic or
changes that are dependent onwherever people or other farmers
are, changes that are dependenton wherever people or other
farmers are, then you're prettyquickly producing a whole bunch
more food than the industrialmodels or any of these models
about food production even couldcomprehend.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So, yes, something you said just now they're
producing more food but, like so, your industrial system
produces more calories but nonutrients.
So, like a system like mine, itit's so productive and I think
that you know you'd have to lookat it but there are, no, no
(22:19):
question, producing morenutrients and you know, we know
that people are getting enoughcalories for the most part, but
they're not getting.
And you know, we know thatpeople are getting enough
calories for the most part, butthey're not getting enough
nutrients.
So you know there's a wholething.
You know the industrializationof food.
So what I've lived through interms of seeing my family and
(22:40):
what's happened to ruralAustralia, which you know I
believe has been echoed all overthe world, is that when I was
growing up, on the farm was mygrandfather, my dad, my two
uncles, my older brother, allworking on the farm, two or
three full-time employees andseasonal workers.
Now, on the same farm, my dad,one, maybe two workers, same
(23:09):
farm, my dad, one, maybe twoworkers, you know so that that
that land has gone from umhaving what, what did I say?
10 or 12 people working it downto three.
And that's happened all overand that means you know your
villages are going andeverything, and so you say, you
know, then saying oh, we can'tfeed the world, it's, yeah,
because this whole hollowing outof rural society has happened,
that it's necessarily you canonly have one man on a tractor
(23:31):
growing crops and you can't havethese productive systems like
we have, because it's veryreliant on labor.
So, yeah, my father's farm 7,500acres, three employees I have
28 acres.
I have the equivalent of fourfull-time staff.
So there's a lot happening on avery small space.
(23:52):
And the way I see it is,instead of investing millions in
machinery, I'm investing inlocal people, local people
working for me.
So my farm doesn't rely on abig amount of inputs, but it
relies on a lot of labor.
But I'd rather see that themajority of my earnings go
(24:16):
towards paying people's wagesthan say, servicing interest
payments on machinery or payingagricultural companies for
chemicals.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So it requires a whole cultural revolution and
people from the city don'tunderstand it basically, yeah,
and what you're describing isreally echoing what it sounds
like happened with one of thepioneers of this regenerative
agricultural movement inBluffton, georgia, with White
(24:49):
Oak Pastures and their workrestoring their essential
village and township essentiallyhappened because they were able
to employ more people usingthis more human intensive
agricultural practices.
I mean to me the industrial andthe centralized system, it's
(25:09):
pseudo productivity and it'sproducing pseudo nutrition,
whereas what you're doing istrue productivity because it is
producing real nutrition and itis literally regenerating the
land and it's a net benefit tothis commons which, jake you
know, my friend jake wilkie uh,in here australia, talks a lot
about.
Like, what is regenerativefarming?
(25:30):
Something that that actuallyadds to the commons rather than,
rather than detracts from it.
So it's uh, yeah, it's, it'svery elegant and, and again,
it's about working with nature.
These centralized systems aredestructive, they're extractive,
I mean mean, someone put it asstrip mining the soil is kind of
what a lot of monocropagriculture is and that, I think
(25:51):
, is a real fitting saying so.
Let's talk about a specific typeof cattle and I see that you're
wearing your Nguni shirt hereNow Nguni, which are an ecotype
breed of indigenous Africansanga cattle.
They're a bit of my hobby horse.
I'm very enamored with theirability to survive in all kinds
(26:13):
of conditions and if we'retalking about productivity per
square meter of land and we'rethinking about per square meter
of beef production, then theseare kind of the cattle that you
want.
Per square meter of beefproduction, then these are kind
of the cattle that you want.
So talk to me about yourexperience with cattle and what
you're looking at with theseNguni cattle.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, so, yeah, so our farm's certified organic.
So that means that with ourbeef we're looking for a hardy
breed of cattle that can, andnot only we're certified organic
, we're certified organic in aenvironment that's very
difficult to be certifiedorganic because we have high
(26:51):
burdens of parasites.
So a lot of buffalo fly, a lotof ticks, internal parasites
such as worms, liver fluke allhighly prevalent in our area.
And when we started, basicallywhen I made my initial inquiries
, it was it can't be done.
And that's where the Nguni arecompletely central to my
(27:16):
strategy.
And when I initially startedwith cattle and with some other
breeds, I was trying to achievewhat I wanted to achieve with
the grazing and wasn't gettingthe results I wanted, because
this breed has been, you know,thousands of years in Africa of
just harsh selection processes.
No, you know, and there's a lotof parasites in Africa and you
(27:36):
know you survived, you survived,you didn't, you didn't.
So if we're talking aboutspecific traits of the Nguni,
it's that resistance toparasites.
So I've noticed that within myherd that does contain some
other animals and somecrossbreds of Nguni, that the
Nguni and their crossbredsalmost have no buffalo fly on
(28:01):
them whatsoever and they'll bestanding next to breeds of other
cattle that may have 100 oneach side.
Um, they very few ticks, or ifthey do have ticks, they don't
seem to show any sort of problemwith them.
Like the, the cattle maintain afantastic body condition nice,
shiny coat, you know all theindicators of health.
(28:23):
Nevertheless, having some tickson them, they will happily eat
poorer quality forage.
So for a truly regenerativegrazing, you want to be doing a
non-selective grazing, whichmeans you're grazing everything.
They're not leaving anythingbehind.
A British or Euro breed willreally struggle to do that,
(28:47):
whereas an Nguni will be able tomaintain good body condition
whilst doing that.
What else I'm lost now.
But they are just a fantasticanimal and they've basically
allowed us to achieve what wewant to with our grazing, with
(29:08):
our ultra-high density grazingand staying organic, so like low
input and staying in good bodycondition.
Because it can be a prettycommon thing, especially in our
kind of climate, which is notgreat for raising cattle, that
if you've got the wrong breedyou can try this regenerative
grazing and then your cattle dovery poorly.
(29:30):
So I see the Nguni thrivingunder these kind of what I call
it tough love, like I reallydeeply care for my cattle and
look after them really well, butat the same time, I'm also
providing quite a harshselection process on them.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah and look, I'm also providing quite a harsh
selection process on them.
Yeah and look, I'm not a farmerat all, but to me it makes so
much sense that if you aretrying to graze and you're using
an animal that you want thatanimal to be adapted or suited
to the environment you're in.
And in talking to people andtalking to other farmers, it
seems like there's a lot ofinertia and maybe legacy in
(30:07):
agricultural practice, which isthey're using this breed because
their dad used it, becausetheir father used that, and
they're not in fact using ananimal that's adapted to the
country.
And here in Australia, which youhave massive amounts of
marginal country, we've gotmassive swings of weather that
include dry and wet periods, andif you're using a cow that's
adapted to a rainy island in theNorth Atlantic where it's cold
(30:30):
and wet, say like an Angus orHereford, then you're probably
not using the exact one that'sright for the job.
So it seems like a no-brainer,but perhaps it takes someone
who's thinking outside the boxor hasn't been within these
intellectual thinking paradigmsto see that the other facet of
the problem is that if you careabout the ethics of animal
(30:54):
welfare, then why would you havea cow that's going to be
suffering and what you describedwith the buffalo fly.
I mean, I've seen animalssimilar as what you described
side to side, different breeds,and one looks like some kind of
emaciated product of some kindof concentration camp and the
other, the Nguni, is thriving.
(31:14):
It's the same environment but adifferent animal, and
incredible to make that much ofa difference.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, so there's a lot of.
You know you can, like Imentioned with the syntropic
agroforestry if you don't havethe right conditions for your
plant, you're going to have toprop it up fertilizers,
chemicals, irrigations.
It's the exact same withanimals.
If you don't have the rightconditions, you can get away
with it regular deing, chemicaltreatments for buffalo, fly
(31:46):
dipping for ticks, so you cancontrol it.
And I think that's part of whyless people have not adapted
this kind of breed, because youcan kind of skirt around it and
you can selectively graze aswell, so you allow your cattle
to take the best of everything,so they're getting the best
nutrition.
So we're pushing them tonon-selectively graze, which
(32:07):
means they're not getting thebest of everything.
It's much better for thepasture.
But once you get that cycle,it's not as if the cow's getting
, you know, a really poorquality diet.
But it is essential that theyhave that nutritional adaptation
to take poor quality forage,have that nutritional adaptation
to take poor quality forage.
So yeah, we have these crutchesthat can enable producers to
(32:31):
get through or get past thatlack of adaptation.
A lot of it is market-driventoo in terms of what people
desire from their beef.
So you know, while the yooni isincredible in all these reasons
.
We've just uh spoke about um itbecause of the way it's been
selected over, you know,thousands of years in africa.
(32:53):
It's not been for eatingquality, it's been for uh
resilience and able to thrive inharsh conditions.
So, and that's where acrossbreeding program can come
in you can get the resilience,the nutritional adaptation, but
you can add some of the carcassquality of the other breeds and
get the best of both worlds.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, like thinking about this and really maybe
giving some more context to thediscussion is and I don't think
necessarily all you know, allfarmers need to go to start
breeding purebred and goonie,and really there's reasons for
that.
And the commodity market thatwe're discussing, it prizes a
(33:35):
black cow and that is you know.
Someone described it asinterestingly put it it's
amazing that a grown man, youknow, is choosing a cow based on
the color.
It's like a kid wants the redtoy.
It's like these farmers wantthe black cow and, for better or
for worse, that's essentiallythe reality of the market.
And the other reasons whyAnguni aren't selected is
(33:56):
they've got a small carcassframe.
They often have horns.
So there's all these reasonsthat a commodity purchaser might
not want this type of cow.
But, as we were talking aboutbefore, we pressed record is
that you are catering to adifferent type of market and
that is a market that perhaps meand people who are listening to
this podcast are interested in,which is really pure, quality
(34:19):
food with extreme transparencyand provenance and complete
guarantee that there's nochemical additive or input into
our food.
And when the skin comes off,all the beef looks the same and
I think my personal opinion isthe grass feeding is the most
important kind of aspect to goodquality tasting beef and maybe
(34:41):
hanging the carcass.
So we as consumers don't seethat as a problem but totally it
does make sense if you're alsowanting to remain financially
viable to use this breed in across, that also makes a lot of
sense.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah.
So there's just the marketrealities around that and yeah,
it depends what market you wantto meet.
So personally I want to try andbridge the two markets.
So the more traditional onethat's going to be like, say,
their number one trade istenderness and marbling, which
(35:21):
the Yunguni are not known forand it's also difficult in these
kind of environments we're in,whereas, because we're in very
high rainfall rainforestenvironment, our soils are
typically poorer because theproductivity of these
environments is held in thebiomass, not the soil itself
(35:50):
biomass, not the soil itself.
Whereas if you go further outwest, you have better soil
because you're not getting theleaching from the higher
rainfall, which means you havehigher nutrition grass.
And to give that some kind ofcontext, like a lot of good
producers in west of the GreatDividing Range, they might be
putting on 1.5 to 2 kilos a dayon their cattle, whereas here,
like the best that I could hopefor and I think I'm doing a
pretty good job is probably like0.8 kilos a day and that's just
(36:15):
a function of the environment.
But I think that in Goonee andmy cattle model is following two
kind of complementary avenuesis that I'm looking to get into
start selling breeding stock butalso beef.
(36:37):
So the purebred Nguni plays abig role in that, because if you
want crossbreds, you need tohave pure animals as well.
So I'd like to build up my herdof pure Nguni, but then I'll
also be crossbreeding as well tohopefully provide the kind of
beef that people like you and I,that your number one criteria
is grass-fed and the amazingflavor that comes with that, but
(36:59):
also the knowledge that you'refeeding your family
nutrient-dense, clean, organic.
Not everyone is.
The biggest criteria is organic, but for some organic food and
crossing that market with thattenderness and that kind of
stuff, hopefully I can get there.
(37:21):
It's still like cattle is alifetime of work and I'm still a
couple of years in, so yeah,it's still got a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
It's really exciting stuff.
Let's change track now to talkabout this challenge of selling
directly to the consumer,because my impression of
agriculture is that the easy wayis to sell into this commodity
market, be a price taker, dothings the conventional way, use
the black cows, use thedrenches and all the other
(37:51):
chemical inputs and it's thedifficult path is to go out on
your own and kind of carve outyour own market demand and doing
kind of what you're doing.
So talk about these challengesand how you see them and what
you're doing so like what talkabout these challenges and how
you see them and and what you'redoing to overcome them.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, because it's.
It's well.
Geez, where do I start?
It's such a huge, such a hugetopic, you know, because not
every farmer is a naturalsalesman or a natural
businessman as well and there'sso many different factors.
Like you know, our and I, themodel that we've pursued has
(38:33):
worked.
Because of where we are,because we're in the northern
rivers, because I would besurprised if there's a stronger
farmers market culture anywhereelse in the country, a stronger
farmer's market culture anywhereelse in the country, possibly
even the world.
Where else can you go to areally strong farmer's market
six days of the week?
At the furthest you drive is anhour.
(38:54):
That I can have a businessthat's providing myself and
others a living by going tothree farmer's markets every
week.
I think that's pretty unique.
So that gives me someadvantages in terms of kind of
what scale I need to achieve.
Because you know, for somereason, farming is like I don't
(39:19):
know, maybe it's like soromanticized on social media and
there's that really big back tothe land movement that for some
reason people think they'reimmune to this.
You know needing a certainamount of sales to make a living
, that you know that you canhave a great kind of profit
margin on, say, like oneindividual chicken or one
(39:39):
individual box of eggs.
But then you need to rememberthat to make a living you need
to make about $80,000 a year.
So yeah, just trying to getthat scale right.
And the way that I kind of didit after the initial kind of
market testing phases was tofigure out, okay, what number do
(40:04):
I need to create the standardof living that I want to have?
And then okay, so, and then Ifound that number and then now
that I have a good idea of whatI can sell things for and what
the costs are, then you kind ofwork backwards from there and
then you get your.
You get what you need to sell,you get what you need to sell
(40:25):
and it's, yeah, it requires agood strategy, understanding of
the market, but the red tape canbe really difficult as well.
That's a major challenge,especially for livestock
producers.
Everyone all over the countrywill tell you that you know.
The major is you know if youwant to sell meat it has to go
(41:00):
through a licensed facility, andthose licensed facilities are
shutting out small producersbecause they see
paddock-to-plate producers asthreatening the status quo of
the meat supply.
People all of a sudden areavoiding the supermarkets and
whatnot.
How can they stop that?
Stop doing service kills Prettyeasy actually.
That was a pretty broadquestion If you want me to delve
into anything in detail.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yes, absolutely.
These are food supply chainchoke points.
They're being enabled andmaintained by regulatory capture
.
If people understood more thenI think they would be the
pitchforks and the torches, butat the moment, people don't
understand the process by whichtheir food is made and they're
not realizing that they'reessentially being deprived from
(41:42):
sourcing food directly from afarm that's been killed and
processed on that farm, becauseindustry has influenced
regulation to make it difficultfor you to do that on-farm
processing, and it's trulybizarre and makes no logical
sense, because it's the 21stcentury, it's 2025.
We have the technology tomaintain high quality hygiene
(42:04):
and food standards anywhere andit would be very, very easy to
do that, say, on your propertyor anyone else's property.
But these archaic you could saycorrupt laws are preventing us
from accessing your produce thatyou've killed on the farm and
us as consumers.
We have to pay more becauseyour fuel costs, your labor
costs, your transport costs allhave to be built in to the price
(42:27):
that we pay for that beef.
It's pretty bad and I feel likeit needs to be more of a big
deal than people are making out.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, and there are some people making some noise
about it, which is good,australian Food Sovereignty
Alliance being one of them, butit's been happening for a long
time.
Like I mentioned earlier, myfamily's been involved with beef
for many, many years and my dadsaid 50 years ago he could have
(42:56):
a choice of abattoirs wherehe'd send his cattle within a
three-hour drive.
He had all these differenttowns that he could choose
between.
Now his nearest avatar is fivehours away.
Same for us with the chickens.
We had one that was 10 minutesdown the road, now the nearest
one's four hours.
And you know whether that is anongoing thing as well is
(43:17):
something that's you know it'sdifficult and I think that, yeah
, like all of our customers arefully across this kind of stuff,
but I think your average punterin the city actually just has
they have no idea what of ofwhat's at stake, that that there
is this like independent, yeah,food sovereignty, like being
(43:39):
able to, and it goes back to avery personal level in terms of
like why can't people eat thefood that they choose to eat?
So, basically, the governmentis saying that we're deciding
what food you can and cannot eat, and why are adults being
dictated what they cannot eat?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
It's completely absurd and it's profound,
unreasonable intrusion into theprivate life and decisions of
independent, competent adults.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
You can smoke, you can drink why, can't you choose
what food you want?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Exactly Vaping.
We talk about consent inmedicine.
People have the right todecline all kinds of reasonable
treatments, yet we'reessentially barred from
consuming food in its naturalstate.
So I personally think thisneeds to be an issue for
everyone that they raise withtheir local member, like on a
(44:37):
really, really local level yourlocal state member, federal
member.
I mean this is one of thebiggest issues.
I mean we're seeing theencroachment of the
pharmaceutical industry.
The past five years we've seenit encroached into human health.
We won't necessarily talk aboutthat, but in veterinary health
we're only kind of one disasteraway biosecurity disaster away
(44:59):
from the mandating of mandatedpharmaceutical inputs.
The mandating of mandatedpharmaceutical inputs and if
you've got a, you know otherregulations included.
You know herd tagging orwhatsoever.
Or you mandate vaccinecertificates prior to processing
and abattoirs.
You know pretty quickly youcan't easily obtain beef that's
(45:20):
pure as the way our ancestorshave eaten it for you know
millions of years.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
I think that what's importantabout this is that theoretically
, we're in a capitalist society,so if people want this, they
should be able to have it.
That's kind of how supply anddemand works.
I also think that it should bea bipartisan issue too like it's
(45:49):
conservatives because we'vetalked about earlier the decline
of rural areas and towns byproviding jobs again and not
just jobs, but dignified jobsand jobs that people love, not
just crappy jobs.
So, yeah, I'm not one that I'mnot like a big thinker of these
(46:19):
in terms of what the solution is, I don't know.
I'm just kind of like puttingmy head down and hopefully I can
kind of, you know, produce thisfood in a way and, you know,
provide an example andinspiration for others and
provide the food that peoplewant.
And you know, I'm going to betrying my hardest to kind of get
this food to people's plates inthe way that they want it.
(46:40):
And if I can think of new,newer, novel ideas, hopefully I
can and, yeah, that will comeout along the way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
It really is such a big issue, this regulation, and
I think it was Tolstoy who wroteyou might not be interested in
war, but war is interested inyou.
I think in this setting we cansay you might not be and maybe
talking to the audience here youmight not be interested in
regulation, but if you want toeat pure beef, regulation is
interested in you.
So I think it's us as consumersand I mean you're doing the
(47:12):
hard work to produce thisquality food but it's us as
consumers who need toessentially be the ones with the
pitchforks and the torches atour MPs' offices metaphorically
speaking, not literally speakingand demanding change and severe
deregulation of agriculturalproduction.
I mean, from my personal pointof view, I would like to see
(47:35):
on-farm killing and processingso I can buy the beef from you.
I know the cow hasn't traveledfar, it hasn't been in distress.
I would like to see sales, farmgate sales of dairy products
that don't have to go throughindustrial producers and
manufacturers like Parmalat,fonterra, all these companies
(47:57):
and access to other forms offruit and vegetables.
Whatever I feel like I want asa consumer.
I mean, those to me are basichuman rights that we aren't
essentially having access toright now.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, and what I think is that you know so the
anyone who wants to defend theregulations will say well, you
know what's to stop someone fromyou know being really
unhygienic and you know givingout dangerous food.
And then it comes back to likeare we treating everyone like
they're an idiot?
You know so.
Um, you could, someone couldcome to my farm and they step
(48:36):
inside my processing room andthey see how spic and span
everything is, how clean it is.
You look at the chicken and itdoesn't smell like it's off, and
you know.
And then you eat it and thenyou're like okay, cool, this is
I.
I don't need to see a piece ofpaper that this fellow's ticked,
because I can look at his farm,I can see the produce, I can
(48:58):
eat it and I know that he'sdoing a good job.
So I think that you know and Iread some of the other days like
farming automatically makes youa libertarian, because you're
kind of like you know why can'twe make these decisions for
ourselves?
Um, you know, it's kind of likewhen you're at a lookout or
something and it's like don'tstep off the cliff, like yeah,
(49:18):
duh, so, yeah.
So I think that there's a andit's happening and I hope it
will step out from being nicheto slightly less niche.
That, yeah, that people cancome to these farms, they can
see how we operate, but most ofall, use their common sense.
And what will happen is, ifyou're not doing a good job as a
(49:43):
farmer, you'll be weeded out.
You won't have return customers, your business won't thrive.
Kaput You're doing, it's aself-regulating system.
Yeah, yeah, you're doing a goodjob.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, it is.
It's totally self-regulatingand we don't need regulation and
government in there to do thatfor us.
I mean, the arguments about onprosteri is one that have been
covered in other podcasts andother people and I'll make a
quick comment on it from amedical point of view.
And I'll make a quick commenton it from a medical point of
view.
(50:14):
The outbreaks of listeriosis,that's the common kind of big
disease that gets brought upwhen we're talking about lack of
pasteurization.
I mean the big outbreaks oflisteriosis, especially in the
US, are in industrial processingfacilities and it's of alfalfa
or some other plant.
It's very, very rarely from um,from raw, from milk itself.
(50:35):
And it comes back to provenanceand, as you say, the, the
producer.
If you, if there's a dodgyproducer doing the wrong thing
and he's leaving his produce outfor days and then trying to
sell it, that's going to prettyquickly spread through the,
through the community and thatyou're not going to get business
anymore.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, yeah, and then so you know, and why would you
buy something that?
So, yeah, so maybe it comesback to increasing people's
education around food.
And you know, I think we'repretty blessed to live in an
area where people do have a veryhigh education around food and
(51:13):
what's good quality and whatisn't.
So, yeah, then I guess there'sprobably systems of so okay, so
it's not feasible for everyoneto come and look at the farm,
because you know, if you live inBrisbane or Sydney or whatever,
how do you do that?
So how do we bridge that gapwithout?
(51:33):
Oh, yeah, I guess we're goingback to local systems then, and
that's, if we can get back tolocal systems, that's how all of
this thrives.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that's the essence and
that's something that I've beentalking about for a while on my
channel and, if anyone'sinterested, go and check out my
podcast with Texas Slim, jakeWolke, david Bushell, brian
Usher, right at the beginning ofthe channel.
And yeah, the theme isdecentralization and local food
(52:03):
production and local foodconsumption and tying this into
the circadian quantum health,for anyone who's interested in
how this relates to that.
Well, you want to be consumingphotosynthetic products that are
most proximate to your location, and that is because your
mitochondria are going to belooking for synchrony or
(52:24):
coherence between the inputsthat you're giving them in the
form of the light and thetemperature signals, as well as
the food signals, and they marryup if you're essentially
consuming local food.
So there's a massive healthcase for local food consumption.
So maybe, tom, talk to us aboutwhat your vision is for Misty
(52:45):
Creek going forward.
What are you excited about?
What are you building towardsat the moment?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So our farm is six years old now, so we've been
through, yeah, like, a lot ofgrowth phases and a lot of
investment phases.
So what I'm looking for now isto kind of, uh like, mature the
business a little bit, so kindof move from that yeah
investment phase where there's,you know, you're constantly
(53:13):
reinvesting everything back inthe business, to trying to
mature that and basically makeit more profitable, because I've
spent six years investing andit's still going.
That's the kind of overarchingtheme.
Specifically, we spoke aboutthe cattle.
(53:33):
So I'm developing the cattlebecause of what we've spoken
about, all these regulations andwhatnot.
I see diversity, not justbiodiversity on my farm, but
diversity in my product offeringis very central in terms of the
risk of my business.
So you know, if for some reason, say I have no ability to
(53:54):
process my chickens in a legalway, then not all hope is lost.
Another avenue I've justplanted a number of kiwi fruits
in the agroforestry, so I'mhoping that that's going to be
another good avenue for us,because, again, it's something
(54:15):
that it grows on either sides ofthe Brussels sprouts.
The chickens and the cows moveunderneath it.
I've just added another productthat is using what's already
there to grow it better andit'll help.
So you know, like I'll go tothe brussels sprouts to care for
(54:36):
the brussels sprouts, but whileI'm there I can also care for
the kiwi fruits.
Um, so it, it, everything is acontinuous feedback loop.
So, yeah, they're the two mainthings.
So like adding adding a coupleof targeted market-driven
product lines that add someresilience to my business and I
(54:59):
can sell through the same saleschannels.
And then, yeah, maturing so Ican make a living from the farm,
a sustainable living.
The employees on the farm dotoo.
And yeah, that we can continueto provide the community with
food for a long time, because,you know, I do see a high churn
(55:22):
turnover rate within small-scaleregenerative farms.
So, you know, I'm kind ofreally in this for the long haul
and I believe what we'reputting in place will enable me
to do that.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, amazing.
And obviously your food is soldand sold out very close to home
, so people aren't going to behaving probably tasted it if
you're listening to this, but Ican personally attest to its
delicious flavor of chickens andeggs.
So, yeah, thanks for what youdo, Tom, we appreciate it.
Any parting thoughts that youwant to share with everyone?
(55:56):
And, yeah, let us know howpeople can get in contact with
you if they want to discussthings.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, so yeah, most people listening probably
haven't tried it too, becausethat's been something we've
consciously chosen is to selleverything at the farmer's
markets, and you know I getbombarded all the time.
Do you ship to Sydney?
Do you ship to Melbourne?
No, we're focused on the localthing.
And actually it was just whatyou said about the quantum
circadian, like what'sphotosynthesizing around you,
(56:26):
synchronizing with yourselves,like that's amazing, and just
what my personal livedexperience is with the kind of
um, like the health and vigorthat I live, my life and the way
I consume, like I candefinitely resonate with that um
.
So, you know, I I think partingthoughts is, you know, if you,
if you're listening to this andit resonates with you, just find
(56:50):
some local farmers, supportthem, because that's where this
revolution is going to come.
And if someone can, you know,take an extra five to 10 minutes
out of their day to drive to alocal farm, or, you know, take
your Saturday morning to go to afarmer's market and educate
yourself on, you know, what youcan buy, that's going to support
(57:13):
a farmer and support a local,decentralized system, then do
that because it's not just a howdo I say it like philanthropic
thing that you're like, oh,let's go help these poor farmers
.
It's like you're doingsomething for yourself as well
and the thing that, yeah, likeour farm, continuous feedback
(57:33):
loops.
You do something good foryourself, you do something good
for them and it helps everyone.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah, well said.
Thanks, tom, and you'reobviously on Instagram.
Is there any other?
You don't have a website.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
No, we don't have a website because, like I said,
everything's sold at thefarmer's markets.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yeah, so if people are interested at all, can they
DM you on Instagram or are yourDMs closed?
Speaker 2 (57:58):
No, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, reach out to us on
Instagram Misty CreekAgroforestry yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Fantastic, great Well , thank you very much, tom.
It was great to talk and I lookforward with anticipation to
see.
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