91. Zaid Dahhaj: Sun Exposure & Rethinking Dermatology's Core Principles

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, welcome back to the Regenerative Health Podcast
.
Today I'm speaking again withZaid Dahaj.
Now he's a health coach, he isa heliotherapist and circadian
health and circadian biologyeducator.
So, Zaid, welcome back to thepodcast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you, max.
Always a good time to chop itup with you and discuss these
various topics and, yeah, I'msuper excited.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
So I've been really impressed by, by Zaid, your
recent emails just a whole bunchof really high quality analysis
and really picking apart what Ithink we both agree are some
contradictions and holes in thenarratives with respect to sun
exposure.
So let's just run this and giveus an overview of what you've

(00:45):
been thinking about in terms ofsome of the most important
contradictions between whatwe're advised to do with respect
to sun exposure and health andwhat maybe is closer to the
truth you know over the pastyear or so, ever since we had
our last episode together, iscertainly you know more of the

(01:06):
foundational knowledge involvedwith circadian biology, but more
so applying that to centralizedorthodoxy in regards to what
they actually recommend andbelieve.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
And I think that when you break down their
understanding of these subjectsit's not.
I mean it takes about five to 10minutes to understand that it's
completely divorced fromcircadian biology and just first
principles, thinking of howbiological systems actually work
through a circadian lens.
For me, exposing thosecontradictions is very important
because it really goes to showthat the modern curriculum

(01:37):
doesn't involve thesefoundational circadian subjects.
Circadian subjects and evenmore important to that, I mean
I've been exploring things likehyperpigmentation, melasma,
these sort of manifestationsthat are at the edge of people's
understandings, especially froma circadian lens.
But lo and behold, like if youactually do explore it through
that circadian lens, you beginto have a more accurate or

(02:00):
directionally accurateunderstanding of what's going on
.
It begins to make a lot moresense in my mind compared to
centralized recommendations andphilosophy and then, outside of
that, just learning about howdifferent wavelengths within the
solar spectrum interact witheach other synergistically.
I think that's a big subjectthat many people don't cover
because we're so myopicallyfocused on, like red or infrared

(02:20):
light therapy, uv in isolation,blue in isolation but there's a
real magic and synergisticeffect when we have all these
wavelengths together within thefull spectrum.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
The idea of the skin having acircadian clock is not one that
any dermatologist or skin doctorthat I've talked to has any
inkling or idea about.
So speak to that idea and whyis it relevant when we're
talking about sun exposure?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, it's pretty crazy when you think about it,
because, I mean, the role of adermatologist is to really
understand the skin from a firstprinciples perspective and,
more so, diagnose certainmanifestations that happen with
the skin, right, but this is, Ithink, one of their blind spots
because of the fact that theydon't have circadian biology
within their curriculum.
It's just that they don'tunderstand that the skin is a
circadian organ.

(03:09):
First and foremost.
It's light sensing, meaningthere are many options within
the skin barrier, along withmany different aspects of the
skin that are under circadiancontrol.
And so that's a glaringcontradiction in my mind, which
leads to, in my opinion,iatrogenic recommendations on
the back end, whether it's asunscreen use, sun avoidance, so

(03:30):
forth.
And I do think this is one ofthose manifestations that occurs
because of history.
If you look back to the past,in the 1910 Flexner Report, you
know there was a real biastowards allopathic medicine that
revolved around big pharma andpharmaceutical drugs, surgery
and the more holistic route wasousted to the side, essentially,

(03:51):
and demonized.
And so for me, I think it'skind of crazy that we have
centralized dermatologists butwe don't have any decentralized
dermatologists.
For the most part.
There are a few exceptions, afew unicorns out there, but the
fact that we completely divorcecircadian mechanisms from the
skin barrier, knowing it's acircadian organ that deals with
time, deals with circadianmechanisms, senses light and

(04:14):
uses it in various ways you alsohave melanin in the discussion
as well that's just insanity andto me.
I don't think you can come upwith an accurate epistemological
framework unless you do includethe circadian foundation in the
skin barrier that.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
But I guess the subject of this discussion is
holistic health and the holisticperspective on how we can use
the sun to improve our health.
And from my point of view andyour point of view, I think,
because we share the sameperspective is that if we are
hyper-focused on potentialdetriments of sun exposure,
using a pathologicaldermatological lens that lacks
circadian nuance, then we'regoing to get a distorted advice

(05:07):
and a distorted image of sunexposure and sun use.
So let's drill it down forpeople.
Let's really go into thephysiology and the circadian
biology of what we're talkingabout.
With respect to skin function,why does it matter that your
circadian rhythm should bealigned for your skin to
function optimally in sunlightexposure?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah.
So I mean, look, if we followthe logical assumption that the
skin is a circadian organ thatis light sensing inherently and
that operates through circadianmechanisms, then we need to
understand that the entire lightand dark cycle is a part of
that equation, and so the skinbarrier cannot be reduced to
just one part of the day or onepart of the night.
It needs to encompass the fullscope of this work in terms of

(05:53):
the overall individual's day.
And so for me, if you look at,like every one of the mechanisms
involved with how the skinworks, there's always this nice
push and pull between variousprocesses, and so I do believe
that the skin barrier revolvesaround this concept of hormesis
and hormetic stress.
If you take a look at I mean,you know you've talked about how

(06:14):
the thymine dimer subject iskind of myopic in terms of how
centralized orthodoxy views it,whereas on the back end of that
you have things like vitamin D3,you have nucleotide excision
repair, you have the nighttimedarkness, which actually repairs
the skin barriercomprehensively, and so there's
always a push and pull in thisbiological system that involves
the skin, hypodermis, the dermis, hypodermis.

(06:47):
All these aspects contain somesort of circadian mechanism at
its most fundamental layer, andso you look at things like
melanopsin, the blue lightsensor, encephalopsin, neuropsin
, fibroblasts, melanocytes allof these things are under
circadian control, and even morethan that, I think.
They're specifically tuned tocircadian timing signals during
the daytime and also during thenighttime.
And so if we look at modernsociety and how most people live

(07:09):
, it's completely divorced fromhow we were supposed to live
from an evolutionary standpoint.
And so you have people whoeither go out during the midday
at the highest intensity UVwithout the AM sunlight to prime
the skin and most certainlywithout the darkness at night to
repair the skin, and so that'sa problem for many different
angles that can then lead tothese sort of weird

(07:31):
manifestations like vitiligo orhyperpigmentation.
But either way I mean you lookthrough the literature there's a
substantial amount of evidenceto show that the skin barrier is
under circadian control in veryintricate ways.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, and to put it even, to put it in a different
way, we talk about circadiancontrol in very intricate ways.
Yeah, and to put it in adifferent way, we talk about
circadian biology and this ideathat the eyes and light through
the eyes is the key zeitgeber orinformation giver to help
program the body's circadianrhythm.
But what Zaid and I are sayingis essentially that, in addition
to that primary clock in thesuprachiasmatic nucleus, we have

(08:06):
these clocks in all our otherorgans and the skin is no
exception and that means thesefunctions that we're talking
about.
So the replication ofkeratinocytes in their niche and
the ascent of thosekeratinocytes, the production of

(08:27):
key growth factors, of activityof melanocytes and fibroblasts.
This is all designed to happenat a specific time of day, and
the point that I think isrelevant here is that if you
don't get light in the eye andon the skin at the morning and
progressively throughout the day, and then no light at all
during the evening, then you'regoing to disrupt these circadian

(08:47):
functions.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
And yeah, you talk about circadian skin clocks.
I mean, look, at the end of theday, they really do dictate,
arguably, all of the functionthat's involved with not only
the functioning of these variousmechanisms within the skin
barrier but also the repaircycles.
And so if you chronicallydestroy the circadian skin
clocks, then you chronicallydestroy your skin over a long

(09:10):
enough timeframe.
And that's not controversial,in the least to say, because,
again, if you dig through theliterature, all this stuff is
well-founded.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
You had a great email that also talks about the
circadian control of cancer,oncogenesis and essential cancer
prevention, and this is a topicI raised in my recent talk at
Regenerate, titled Beyond SkinDeep, and I think we both made
the same point in using sourcesfrom different review articles

(09:40):
but highlighting the samepathway, which is that it turns
out that P53, the so-calledguardian of the genome, these
key oncogene and essentialpreventers of the cancerous
process, require optimalcircadian signaling, and the
translation for that that I gavewas that if you're having a

(10:03):
disrupted circadian rhythm, ifyou have social jet lag, if you
have light at night, then you'reinherently not going to be able
to potentially repair orsurveil cancerous cells as
optimally.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
It's another wild fact of just circadian biology
in general.
If you look at all anti-cancerprocesses this is something I've
also latched onto a lot morerecently, especially when it
comes to battling more of thecentralized ideas all
anti-cancer processes, whetherit's autophagy, apoptosis, tumor
suppression, what DNA repaircycles, cell cycle checkpoints,

(10:41):
you name it, you go down theentire list they're all under
circadian control and it onlymakes sense when you consider
that we are a circadian diurnalspecies evolved in a specific
environment that is directlytied to an environment that
creates circadian alignment,right?
So for me, that's the one factthat really blew my mind wide

(11:01):
open, because it explains a lotof the things that we see in
society today, whether it be thechronic or the skyrocketing
rates of melanoma, bcc, scc, allforms of skin cancer and cancer
in general, right.
And I think when you understandthe circadian perspective,
along with the detriments ofcircadian disruption on a
chronic scale, then a lot ofthese things begin to make a lot

(11:25):
more sense.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Absolutely, and you made a point about checkpoints,
and maybe I'll put a placeholderhere for future discussion or
later in this conversation.
But it turns out that the mosteffective therapy for metastatic
melanoma that is beingcurrently used are these

(11:46):
checkpoint inhibitor drugs, andthey can be incredibly effective
.
And so that makes us think thatif patients with metastatic
melanoma are improving when weuse an immunotherapy, an immune
system manipulation, toessentially assist in the body's
immune system function, andthat is sufficient to kill

(12:08):
metastatic melanoma, then itreally speaks to again, from
first principles, exactly whatyou just said, zaid, which is
how about we align our circadianrhythm so that we don't need a
drug for our immune system toadequately kill these cancerous
cells?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, I had no idea.
And that's an incredible factright there, because again it
goes to show that I think naturehas a lot of things figured out
according to how we evolved asa species.
But you know, when you throw inmodern society, you throw in
the advent of LEDs and all thisother stuff, it's going to throw
off some very intricate andcomplex mechanisms within the
body.
And this is also something I'mbeginning to appreciate more,

(12:48):
which is the subject of systemsthinking Like we can't go into a
system and recklessly throw inthis reductive input and expect
a good outcome all the time.
There are always going to besome sort of backfiring
mechanism.
There are second and thirdorder consequences that are
always involved.
Sort of backfiring mechanism.
There are second and thirdorder consequences that are
always involved.
And so we need to understandthat not only is the solar

(13:08):
spectrum a system, it's also asystem that interacts with the
skin barrier along with the body, which is a system in and of
itself as well.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
So there's some very complex dynamics going on here
Exactly, and before we maybeI'll say a quick word about
bowel cancer.
I mean, there's an explosion ofwhat is being called early
onset colorectal cancer, eocrcand essentially the incidence is
massively rising in peopleunder the age of 50,
traditionally under the age of40, even so much so that they

(13:39):
keep reducing the age of bowelcancer screening and they want
to keep doing it here.
It's age 45 and they want tolower it to 40 eventually.
But nowhere in the discussion'said is melatonin and the
circadian control of cancerdefense and oncogene prevention
prevention of oncogenesis.

(13:59):
They keep talking about redmeat and, you know, diets
lacking fiber, but where is thediscussion about the biggest
overarching ways that the bodydeals with cancerous and
precancerous cells?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, I mean, look, this is why I go back to the
1910 Flexner Report.
Like I'm going to say, I don'tunderstand everything about it.
I don't understand all thepotential effects that it's
had't understand all thepotential effects that it's had.
Maybe it's had positive effectson medicine.
You know it certainly had somenegative ones, but I think one
of the negative ones involvedwith these certain individuals
like JD Rockefeller and AndrewCarnegie and the I guess the

(14:36):
incentives behind that is thisreductive, mechanistic and
robotic view of the body atlarge, and I think that's a big
problem when you try to thinkabout the system as complex as
the human body, because you missout on so much Like this is why
, for example, thedermatologists say that melanin
is a sign of either skin or DNAdamage, but they don't

(14:56):
understand the bigger picturethrough holism, which shows that
it's a hormetic adaptation thatthen offers so much other
benefit on the back end.
And so for me, there's thishuge problem with this reductive
view of biology and the humanbody, and so we need to bring it
back to a more holisticviewpoint, for sure.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, and dermatology isn't the only specialty guilty
of this thinking.
It's inherent in Westernmedicine as it exists at the
moment.
So let's talk about thesespecific skin adaptations.
What is the skin expecting?
We talked about it.
It's got this photosensingability.
It's essentially timed to dodifferent functions at different

(15:37):
times of the day.
So talk about what thedifferent light wavelengths.
If we're doing things correctly.
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah.
So I mean we start at themorning time where I think
that's like the first dominothat we push in order to start
circadian alignment.
Right, you have sunrise, whichis anywhere between like zero to
10 degrees.
You know, you have mostly aspectrum where red and infrared
is, I mean, most abundant.
I mean arguably up to like 60to 80% of the spectrum is red
and infrared at that time.
And so what is the function ofred and infrared?

(16:09):
Number one it's to preconditioncells to, you know, accept or
be prepared for UV exposure.
Like there's that famous studythat I point to, 1998 Journal of
Investigative Dermatology, thatshows that when you
precondition cells with nearinfrared light, cytotoxicity
after about three sessions ofthat exposure is almost

(16:30):
non-existent from UV andisolation.
And so there's always thissynergistic balance between
these different wavelengthswithin the solar spectrum and
then also in accordance tocircadian timing.
And so when you're out duringsunrise you get that, that you
get that spectrum peripherallythrough the eyes and then you
get it onto the skin.
You're creating circadianalignment within the entire

(16:52):
system.
And so there are many differentpoints to this discussion.
I mean you have retinine forred stimulating collagen,
elastin, hyaluronic acid withinthe skin barrier.
You have the production offiligree and uricanic acid, two
skin proteins which are highlymoisturizing and protective of
the skin.
And then, I think, because youset those circadian skin clocks
to such a correct degree interms of their timing, you're

(17:15):
able to gradually, you know,adapt yourself to that eventual
midday UV portion.
This isn't to say that you haveto sunbathe during the midday
portion, but it makes you a lotmore resilient to that and, more
importantly, it opens you up tohaving more leverage in terms
of gaining that hormeticadaptation which I think is the
most important thing here.

(17:35):
So that's the morning time.
There's a lot to go on that end.
You know you have the midday,which from my perspective, is
something that has to beapproached progressively and
intentionally, in the same waythat you would train right.
And then, if you look at, likeall the anti-cancer processes or
all these hormetic processeswithin the skin barrier, they're
most upregulated during middayUV, when you have the highest

(17:58):
intensity radiation from the sun, which only makes sense.
I mean, this is why there is alongstanding recommendation of
having to give peopleradiological assessments during
that midday portion so thattheir body's most able to deal
with that radiation.
And then, outside of that, yougo to the nighttime and you have
just systemic skin barrierregeneration.

(18:20):
I mean darkness at night, sleep, that's what actually
regenerates the entire skinbarrier comprehensively.
And so the solar spectrum goesthrough various light
differences, let's say.
But if you are in circadianalignment, then you understand
that every bit of the day andthe night is there for a very
precise reason in terms of howyour body responds.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, exactly right.
And maybe to add even more colorto that picture and you
mentioned a great study there'sanother study that used isolated
red and preconditioned the skinwith this red LED and then
administered ultraviolet A and Bagain an artificial source but
was able to obtain in these skintype ones up to SPF 15

(19:09):
equivalent.
So the use of the red light, itturned on these fibroblasts, it
helped them upregulatecollagenase and these other
enzymatic processes andtherefore when the UV came, the
skin was essentially even moreprotected.
The other thing that again Iadd even more color to what

(19:32):
you've just said is that as wego from the morning, which is,
as you said, dominated three toone by non-visible to visible
photons, and then really rich inred and infrared, we get UVA
before we get UVB.
And I think the body has alsodone something very unique which
is essentially developed thisimmediate pigment darkening

(19:52):
process, which seems to relateto oxidation of existing melanin
granules, which is again almosta really elegant pre-arrival to
the more intense UVB that'smore likely to induce erythema
and burning.
So even within that UV responsethere's a nuance and a gradient

(20:13):
.
It's like mother nature hasprepared us for every aspect of
this solar arc.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And you know, the one thing Ifound shocking about that 1998
study with near-infrared lightremoving cytotoxicity from UV is
that, you know, when thesecells were introduced to
near-infrared the protection wasalmost immediate, and then the
protection was cumulative,meaning that it ramped up all

(20:42):
the way up to about 24 hours andthen, at its highest peak, it
maintained that protection forthe next three days.
So if we extrapolate that andwe think about how people in
circadian alignment live theirlives, I mean you're spending
upwards of 30, 40, 50 minutesduring sunrise, most of the skin
exposed, and then you'regradually and progressively
getting that UV.

(21:02):
I mean you're in the bestposition possible in order to
gain the most hormeticadaptation right, and then you
stack darkness on top of that atnight and you have somebody who
is in true alignment, who isable to get the most out of how
their biology actually worksfrom a circadian lens.
So there are many differentpoints to this subject, but I
think it's just incredible howintricate and sophisticated the

(21:23):
body is in terms of dealing withthis.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, I love how you framed it in the notion that
it's allowing the body to acceptmore hormetic stress.
And that's how I also thinkabout the solar callus, which is
, once we've built up a tan,it's really allowing us to soak
in more UV light, moreultraviolet energy, without
having a deleterious effect.
It's as you said.

(21:47):
It'll make us like, once you'reable to deadlift, you know, 100
, 130 kilograms, you can do morereps at that weight and you can
get the benefits of axialloading on your skeleton and
improving bone mineral density.
You can get all these you knowneurocognitive benefits of

(22:07):
weight lifting because you'vegone through the effort of
developing that muscle strengthto, uh, to be able to lift that
much.
And the same thing is is goingon here, which is, once you've
built up that tan, you cansuddenly now be in more
ultraviolet light and thatultraviolet light, that full
spectrum sunlight, is getting towork, potentially doing a whole

(22:28):
range of very important things,from suppressing appetite
centrally, from building thesecoherent domains in water, from
you name it it's helpingproducing these melanocortin
peptides.
So I think that's a reallyimportant point that we really
should emphasize.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Absolutely.
I think the great dividebetween centralized medicine's
understanding of sunlight versusdecentralized medicine today is
this real difference betweendistress and eustress.
And it's always shocking to mehow you can have somebody who
goes through 20 years of medicaleducation, in terms of whatever
specialty they have, and forsome reason they have not.

(23:10):
I mean, the dermatologists area perfect example of this.
By and large, they have notdifferentiated between distress
and eustress.
They, by and large, they havenot differentiated between
distress and eustress.
To say that melanin is a sign ofskin or DNA damage is to frame
it as damage to the organism,aka distress.
But if you take thedecentralized perspective, that
is hormesis.
That's a, you know, hormeticadaptation that creates a

(23:32):
stronger and healthier organism.
So I think we can apply that, Iguess, foundational heuristic
or knowledge to all thesedifferent subjects because,
again, the body does have thisperfect balance of push and pull
.
So long as you understand thiswork and you're in circadian
alignment, if you're somebodywho lives like the average
American or, you know,Australian, then you're
obviously going to be in chroniccircadian disruption, which

(23:54):
then can make things worse tothe degree that you think that
sunlight is causing amanifestation like
hyperpigmentation or somethingof that nature.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Let's talk a little bit about.
Actually, before we move on tothis point, I want to make a
mention of the near-infraredstudy and this idea of how
prolonged benefit can occur fromgetting this longer wavelength
light.
It also calls to mind GlennJeffries' work with red light
and retinal function and hisrecommendation, based on his

(24:24):
research, is that as little asthree minutes a week of red
light into the eyes canessentially offer or convey this
benefit of preventing loss ofretinal cells and promoting
retinal health.
So when we put it that way andwe think about how so much of

(24:44):
the scientific literature isthat demonstrates the harm of
ultraviolet light, then I reallythink that the vast majority of
this literature isn't doing afair test.
It's not doing really robustscientific investigation,
because rarely in nature and inancestral past and in evolution

(25:07):
were we suddenly getting a highdose of UV and then no red or
infrared.
It was always, as you said, inthe context of a whole morning's
worth of massive amount of thislight and that would have
reduced not only those DNAcyclobutane pyridine dimers, the

(25:27):
DNA damage from UVB, but italso would have reduced the
oxidative stress which isclassically blamed for UVA's
damage to DNA strands.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, you know, there's this book called, I
think it's, the Structure ofScientific Revolutions by, I
believe, thomas Kuhn.
It's a book that I recently gotinto, but he talks about how
scientific revolutions comearound.
And so there's this you know,you have the foundational
knowledge within a given area,you have the experts, you have
the scientific wizards and topof their class individuals, but

(26:00):
then you have the heretic, theindividual who comes around and
starts to question thefoundational knowledge, which I
view us as heretics, essentiallyaccording to centralized
orthodoxy, because we're comingaround and saying that, through
the circadian lens, things likemelanin, things like UV light,
all of these things are hormeticin nature and, more importantly
, they're supported by variousaspects of the literature.

(26:23):
And so I think that's a bigpoint to understand, because
there's a reason why there's somuch pushback on our takes, and
I think that's because of thatreductive philosophy and the
fact that we are basicallythrowing a you know, a monkey
wrench into that whole situationyeah, yeah, the.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
I think the archetype of the sign, the heretic is it.
And when it comes to um,science and medicine, was the um
, was the researcher in inhungary who essentially
developed, was it was a hungryuh who advocated for hand
washing prior to cadaverousdissection.

(27:02):
If you just delivered a baby oryou're about to go and deliver
a baby and you know without his,you know insistence and
thinking from first principles,you know we wouldn't have or we
would have delayed thatdiscovery for a long time.
But at the time he was chuckedout and I think he died in an

(27:23):
insane asylum if I'm not wrong.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, you're crazy.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, yeah, and that's what the mob I guess the
mob rule or the consensus willdo to you.
But no, I agree completely.
So I want to hear your thoughtsand explanations for the
audience on why cultivatingmelanin and what melanin is
doing.
What are the benefits,mechanistically, that having
more melanin in our epidermiscan offer us?

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Well, if you look at a visual breakdown of how
melanin works, I mean it'spretty incredible because you
look at how it moves throughoutthe skin barrier and it almost
creates this umbrella over thesekey mechanisms and processes
within the skin barrier, and sothere's certainly a protective
effect.
I mean, if you want to talkabout how melanin is the
ultimate sunstream that natureprovides, I mean there's a clear

(28:12):
argument for that.
You have eumelanin, which is inthe blacks and browns in nature
blocks 99.9% of UV light, whilealso using the rest of it for
systemic function.
You know, pheomelanin lighterskin people reds, pinks, yellows
, oranges in nature is much lessprotective, around like 20 to

(28:33):
40%.
But I do think that, from ananecdotal perspective, I've seen
people who are redheads, whoavoid burns completely and
manage to get high UV index sunexposure with no problem
whatsoever.
So there's a lot to explore onthat end.
But I think that the radioprotective aspect of it, meaning
protective against radiation issomething that we can't ignore.
That's foundational.
And then you go down the listyou have you know the fact that

(28:55):
it's an energy transducer.
You go down the list you haveum, you know the fact that it's.
It's an energy transducertransducer.
It can take electromagneticenergy from the sun and turn it
into a usable form of energy forthe body.
There's all this talk about howwe can generate free electrons,
photoelectric effect.
That stuff I haven't reallydived into too deeply on, but um
, outside of that, I mean itshows potential for being
anti-venom, anti-cancer,antioxidant for sure,

(29:18):
anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial, antiviral.
There are even fungus inChernobyl that are managing to
use nuclear radiation to growthrough melanin.
So I mean I think through theliterature it's just obvious
that there's so much more tomelanin.
It's certainly not a sign ofskin damage or DNA damage.
I think that's a very reductiveway to view it.
I think it's a hormeticadaptation, that is, it's almost

(29:43):
like nature's most incredibletechnology.
It's just such an incrediblebiological polymer and it offers
us so much, which means thatnot only can we get the
protective effects so we don'tburn all skin types, but it also
means we have more leverage tospend more time in the sun,
which, as we get older,discussing mitochondrial
heteroplasmy, that's animportant subject.

(30:04):
We need to be out in the sunmore as we age, and so there's
so much to the melanindiscussion, but it's nature's
most incredible invention in myopinion.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, and I want to add another function in addition
to that long laundry list thatyou presented, which is this
purported benefit of heavy metalshedding and this idea that if
melanin and we know that melaninessentially binds c eumelanin
pigmentation, particularly inthe hair, as a means of

(30:40):
excreting, chelating and thenexcreting heavy metals that were
ingested in a littorallifestyle, in a habitat where we
were scavenging at the sea,eating mollusks, eating other
forms of seafood, gettingmassive benefits from all that
zinc, selenium, getting massivebenefits from all their zinc,

(31:00):
selenium and iodine and DHA, butpotentially also getting some
lead, cadmium, arsenic andmercury.
And so what they think and Ithink there's robust science to
back this up is that the darklypigmented hair follicle and the
fact that most of the world Asia, latin America, south America,
central America do have blackhair Australian Aborigines and

(31:24):
was a mechanism by which thebody could bind and then get rid
of these heavy metals anddetour through the epidermis, as
you talked about in terms ofthe anatomy of the skin.
In the epidermis, thekeratinocytes are essentially
pushing up like an elevatingstaircase and getting shed off,
and that is one of the keydefense barriers of the skin and

(31:45):
the key UV barriers of the skin, the stratum corneum.
So how elegant is that If thebody is grabbing that lead, it's
grabbing that mercury, it'sbinding it with melanin and then
dumping it off into the etherwhere it can't do any harm?
I think the most solidcircumstantial evidence for this
benefit is in animalobservations, where we know that

(32:06):
pigeons do this.
Pigeons in heavily pollutedareas become darker and they're
essentially excreting morepigment.
I saw a study that sea snakesin polluted water become more
pigmented for the same reason,and I do know of a cell culture
experiment showing that onintroduction of particulate
pollution, the in vitromelanocyte cell culture actually

(32:31):
it was ex-plants, it was exvivo skin became more pigmented.
So how's?
that for for an amazing skintechnology.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
You know, I've often wondered if if that does
actually have a potentialbackfiring effect.
If somebody is in this state ofchronic circadian disruption
right, I mean, if it's, ifmelanin is is taking in these
heavy metals and adsorbing themto a certain degree, is there a
backfiring effect in terms ofbeing able to, like, hold on to
too many of the, or too muchload of that heavy metal

(33:00):
toxicity because your detoxsystems aren't working, which
also happened to be undercircadian control?
So that's also something thatgoes through my head.
There's like there's so manydifferent things that you know
you can explore on that end,which goes to show how much we
don't know relative to, you know, our basic understanding of
this work.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, and it gets to the heart of this idea of
tanning is skin cells and trauma.
I mean, that was an advert onTV that in Australia we
essentially grew up with and Ireally think it's a half-truth.
You said the same thing indifferent words, but it's really
a half-truth.
That is framing.

(33:35):
Any form of tanning isdetrimental but, as you've
explained, zaid, we're gettingall these benefits from
cultivating melanin.
The body is essentially beingable to do all these functions
antioxidant functions,antimicrobial functions, energy
harvesting functions that itwouldn't do if it didn't have as
much melanin.
So I think people who naturallysee someone and say, oh, you've

(33:59):
got a healthy tan or you lookreally healthy, have you been on
holiday I think that's someuneducated or ignorant but in a
kind of unindoctrinated way,seeing past this BS, messaging
and appreciating that hang on,that is a sign of health.
That is someone who ischelating their heavy metals.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, and you know, one of the contradictions that I
find in centralized orthodoxy,especially when it comes to
dermatology, is this idea thatmelanin increases your risk of
skin cancer by substantialamount over time, but then when
you look through the literature,it's anti-tumor.
So so how do we square awaythose two things right and go
down the list of whatdermatology talks about?
I mean, you could talk abouthow they're saying that a

(34:41):
sunburn at five years oldincreases your risk of skin
cancer by like 4,000% over thelifetime, but when you look at
how they're actually taking thatassumption, the research that
they're using, it's just, youknow, epidemiological,
observational, associational innature.
So it's not even a causal link.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Well, there's some key biases and confounding that
potentially are at play here.
Someone gets diagnosed withmalignant melanoma and they
essentially recall and there'srecall bias about they're going
to say that they werepotentially in more sun than
they otherwise would have been.
So that's particularly withthese case control studies.

(35:23):
But you get potentialexacerbation or confounding that
really muddies the waters whenit comes to associating sun
exposure with melanoma risk.
In my talk at Regener atregenerative made the point that
here in australia the averageage of diagnosis in men I
believe, is 68 so age 68.

(35:43):
So you know, what is probablyhappening is that pale people
fitzpatrick to european explantsin australia, an area of really
high uv, maybe got burnt badlyas a child and spent 40 years in
an office as an accountantunder artificial lighting, under
compact fluorescent lamps,developed vitamin D deficiency

(36:06):
because they had an inadequateamount of full spectrum sunlight
, probably ate a whole bunch ofseed oils and processed carbs,
melatonin deficiency on top ofthat Exactly Light at night, so
that the melatonin function,autophagy and opitosis are
broken and then get diagnosed ina non-sun exposed area with a

(36:27):
superficial or a nodularspreading melanoma or nodular
melanoma.
And that is not a healthyperson and that is not someone
who's used the sun in anancestrally appropriate manner.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
And you know I'm willing to go on the edge of I
mean I'm willing to state this.
So far, I mean, I don't thinkthat there's ever been a study
showing a causal link betweensunburn and skin cancers.
I've tried to find them.
They're all eitherepidemiological, you know,
observational, and so there's alot of these things where they
say it's a bona fide fact, butthey use isolated UV on

(37:01):
nocturnal animals or skin cellcultures under isolated blue in
labs with non-native EMF around,but they say that full spectrum
sunlight is the end all causeof that manifestation.
And then I think you can applythe same to sunburns.
Now, do we want a sunburn?
Of course not.
I think it's a case of an acuteinjury of the skin.
But I think even the science onthat is still very shaky, which

(37:23):
we need to go deeper into thatas well.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
So I mean I think let's unpack this, because I
want to be really clear about myperspective too.
I guess we might need to.
This is a good opportunity toemploy another mental model in
terms of cause and thiscomponent-cause model.
So there's components, causes,there's sufficient and there's
necessary causes.
So I think sun exposure and UVexposure is a necessary cause of

(37:51):
most skin cancer, particularlynon-melanoma skin cancer, so the
basal and the squamous cellcarcinomas, meaning that without
any sun exposure, I don't thinkthat cancer would have happened
.
However, does that mean that itis the only factor at play?
Absolutely not, Because I'veseen personally.

(38:11):
I've been in dermatology andskin cancer clinics and I've
seen two patients, or I've seena patient who has had a certain
amount of sun exposure, certainlifestyle habits and, in and out
, every six months or sooner,getting precancerous and
cancerous lesions excised orcryotherapy off him.

(38:32):
And yet, speaking to thetreating dermatologist's,
there's people that have had theexact same exposure and, uh,
have had no problems so um, yes,there's genetic factors at play
, but uh, you know all, all fact, all genetic or family history
being equal, there's stillsomeone that has certain traits
that have ensure that they keepgetting cancer skin cancers and

(38:55):
I think that's when it comeswhat what we're talking about
comes into play.
I think that's the person whois under the artificial light,
who's eating the hydroterium,seed oils and processed foods,
who is doing everything wrongfrom a skin cancer point of view
, but that's specifically withrespect to non-melanoma skin
cancer.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
So sorry to interrupt , but would it be more accurate
or directionally accurate to saythat sunburns can kind of be
viewed as cholesterol in thecontext of heart disease?
Like it happens to be in theenvironment, it happens to be
involved in the whole scenario,but we can't really say that
either cholesterol causes heartdisease.
I think there are many holes inthat understanding.

(39:36):
But in the same line we can'talso say that sunburns
necessarily cause thesenon-melanoma skin cancers.
Am I correct in thinking that?

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Well, I mean, there's another aspect to this.
So there are certain tumormutation signatures that
non-melanoma skin cancers have,which correspond to those DNA
strand breaks like the TT orwhatever they are.
So there's certain signaturesthat would suggest that that is

(40:05):
UV, light-derived DNA damage.
But the issue here is that,again, you can have two people
that had the same exposures, butwhy is one not developing skin
cancer?
And I think, the point beingthat it's a host susceptibility
factor, it's the terrain, it'sthe inadequate or poor immune

(40:28):
function and skin cancersurveillance function in that
individual that made him developcancer.
So, yes, it's necessary, butit's not sufficient.
That's the point I'm makingwith respect to this causal
model.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
It makes sense All of these things, especially cancer
I mean, it's one of the mostcomplex disease manifestations
ever that we know of.
So it only makes sense that allof these things come into play.
And yeah, I'm glad youclarified that because I think
that's you know, I'm certainlynot a believer that sunscreen
causes like skin cancers, forexample.
I think that's whereinfluencers can take the message

(41:05):
and just go way too wild withit.
I don't think the literaturereflects that.
But there's a lot more to diveinto.
There's a lot.
Nuance is the key word.
Nuance is really the key wordinto Nuance is the key word.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
It is.
Nuance is really the key word.
It is Again.
In Australia we've got amassive amount of it.
I'm very careful in delivering anuanced message.
I think epistemologically oneof the most useful arguments or
ways to view this is patientslike transplant recipients,
because these are patients whoget massive amounts of skin

(41:39):
cancer on exposure to UV lightand we know how they are
essentially hampered is becausethey're on immunosuppressing
medications.
They're on these calcium urineinhibitors, they're on these
medications that are impairingtheir T cell function.
So that really makes sense whenwe understand cancer as a
problem of inadequate immunesurveillance and destruction in

(42:05):
many ways.
So I think that that's alsohelpful.
And then another helpful way islooking at a condition like
xeroderma pigmentosum, which isa base excision repair enzyme
mutation, and those patients getextreme photosensitivity and
they get sunlight earlier inlife Golan syndrome.
So Golan syndrome, I believe,is a patch repair enzyme

(42:28):
mutation.
These patients get basal cellcarcinomas very, very, very
early.
So again, just looking at thisfrom different angles, it speaks
to how important immune systemfunction is to cancer defense
and skin cancer defense.
And the irony and here'sbringing it back to earlier in
the conversation is how do youhelp augment your immune system

(42:50):
function and upregulate thosebase enzyme repair was through
vitamin D in the secosteroidcousins, which you can only get
from UVB light.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, I mean it.
Only it lends credence to theidea that UV is just a hormetic
stressor.
I mean that I think makes themost sense.
Hormetic stressor, I mean thatI think makes the most sense.
And you know you have to.
There are certain scenarioswhere that doesn't apply to the
individual, where you know theycan be seriously harmed because
of the given circumstances.
But I think by and large peopleneed to understand circadian
alignment and how that fits intothe whole understanding of UV

(43:20):
as a eustressor to then make themost of it.
You know, from a healthperspective.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Absolutely.
And I think the other nuanceand the key point that I kind of
convey is just helping peopleunderstand their skin type and
their ancestry.
Because if we do look at theamount of melanin that is
essentially endowed on differentpeople by birth and by genetics
, it's something like a 60-folddifference between the type 1s
and the type 6s, meaning theNorth European Europeans,
compared to the West Africans orthe Sudanese and Australian
aboriginals.
It's 60 times and that matters,that matters.

(43:56):
And I think, zaid, if you dohave a really pale person, like
a lot of Australians wholiterally are in UV index of 12
sun all year, their ancestryexpected a uv of six for like a
week.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
yeah, absolutely so it's a massive mismatch yeah.
So so do you think somebody whohas a a very you know somebody
who's lighter skinned, let's saya redhead do you think that
they can thrive with theunderstanding of the circadian
principles in an environmentlike that, and do you think they
can adequately put themselvesin a position to where they're
thrive with the understanding ofthe circadian principles in an

(44:31):
environment like that, and doyou think they can adequately
put themselves in a position towhere they're most protected
from these non-melanoma skincancers and whatnot?

Speaker 1 (44:38):
I saw a guy that was probably our age in the clinic
and he was a type one redheadand he worked up in the Northern
Territory, so near Darwin,outdoor worker, really, really
heavy UV exposure, very, verytanned.
But he started developing solarkeratosis.

(44:58):
He came to me and he was likedude, what's this?
And he had a solar keratosis oran acatemic keratosis on his
forearm.
And this guy was in his again.
He wasn't past the age of 35.
And you know I spoke to him abit about him.
I talked about his diet and youknow he loved hot chips.
He loved, you know we call itthe.
Yeah, the.

(45:20):
You know the lunch, this likedeep fried lunch, kind of a hot
box here, and you know it'scommon in manual workers or
anyone who likes to want a quicklunch.
So this guy's obviously havinga whole heap of seed oils in his
diet.
Like anyone, he's probablyflicking on his phone late at
night, but the point is he wasdeveloping this lesion which is

(45:45):
a precursor to a squamous cellcarcinoma, and and it was very
young.
So so you know, my personalthought is that no matter how,
um, what, however you cut thedice, someone who's a type one
has got a smaller buffer fordeveloping a skin cancer than a
type six I I don't think anyonecan argue with that.
But if they do everything rightand they, you know, and they

(46:06):
they use the shade and theyalign things from a circadian
point of view, I believe theycan prevent getting both
melanoma and non-melanoma skincancer.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, you know, I do agree with that.
It only makes sense consideringthe discussion of haplotypes,
ancestry, all that stuff.
And I've just been fascinatedby the anecdotal stories that
I've received from manydifferent people implementing
the circadian protocol, because,you know, I have many redheads
coming to me who say that theyavoid sunburns altogether after
having a long history of being,you know, sunburned very easily.

(46:37):
I think most people candefinitely achieve that, but
even then like just positiveresults across the board to
where they can handle a lot moreUV.
But again, I do have to.
This is why I like to explorethe nuance and go into different
territories so that I can havea more accurate framework to
then talk to individuals likethat, because it's a very
important subject, obviously.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Yeah, Talk about some of these anecdotes, because we
just had our circadian healthretreat and someone who attended
made the comment that he was akeen fisherman, he loved fishing
and that one time that he woresunglasses on his fishing boat
obviously without a shirt on heburnt badly, and prior to that,

(47:19):
whenever he hadn't worn sunnies,then he wasn't burning.
So I'm sure you've heard thatanecdote as well.
Can you talk to some of yourstories?

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Oh yeah, plenty of times.
I mean people who are blue-eyed, blonde-haired, light-skinned.
They remove the sunglasses,they stop burning.
There are also other factorsinvolved with that, but I think
some people can certainly justremove the sunglasses from the
lifestyle equation and they stopburning altogether.
It makes sense, considering themechanisms we've talked about

(47:49):
with MSH and all that stuff Riffon that, because we didn't go
in depth in it.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Talk about this axis.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Sure.
So for me I try to explain thisin the most simple manner.
I mean you have UV light as aperipheral signal into the eyes.
The eyes are a circadian lightsensing mechanism, and so you
have mitochondria, melaninopsins, in the eye that are
designed to sense full spectrumsunlight peripherally, right.
And so once you get UV lightfrom a circadian timing

(48:15):
perspective into the eyesperipherally, that's where you
activate POMC I mean not only inthe brain but also in the skin
as well and so that's where youstart the process of making
melanin.
So you have adequate andappropriate circadian timing to
where you begin the wholeadaptation process.
So you become protected from avery real perspective.
On that, you know, on thatangle.

(48:36):
But if you prevent yourself fromgetting that UV signal
peripherally into the eyes, thenyou prevent the signal for
melanogenesis, and so that's abig problem, because melanin is
radio protective.
Why would you want to block thevery thing that is most
effective at blocking radiationfrom the sun, right?
So for me, I think that's agood explanation of it, and also

(48:57):
we have to understand thisaccess of how the skin, eyes and
brain are just essentially oneunit, and so circadian timing
has massive effects on how thosethree things interact with one
another.
If you, you know, usesunglasses or sunscreen, in my
opinion, then you start theprocess of breaking apart that
trio and so you, you almostremove one leg of the stool and

(49:18):
then you cease to have a stoolaltogether.
So for me that's a, that's animportant one, um, and then all
all sorts of things lightsensitivity people can
progressively get used to fullspectrum, high lux, you know.
Other things like actual healingof hypo and hyperpigmentation.
Vitiligo you know, narrow bandUVB has been shown to repigment

(49:40):
areas of the skin where peoplehave vitiligo very effectively.
So I think when you put allthis together in this framework
of circadian alignment, you canmake progress in a lot of things
that people just think are dueto genetics.
And I'm not a medicalprofessional, but I'll say that
you can heal things likehypopigmentation or
hyperpigmentation veryseamlessly, from what I've seen
through people who haveimplemented this protocol.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, and let's riff on this axis, this
neuroendocrine organ, the eye, alittle bit more, because it's
so key, because a lot of peoplelook at you in disbelief and
baffled when you say to them youcan potentially reduce your
photosensitivity and sunburntendency by simply removing your

(50:25):
glasses.
I really like that.
You referred to the fact thatthe eyes and the skin have this
common embryological origin inthis neuroectodermal tissue and
what I learned reallyfascinatingly, probably most,
from the Slominski paper, how UVLight Touches the Brain and

(50:45):
Eyes.
And if you read that paper andit's very dense for anyone
listening, but I'd encourage youto try and battle your way
through it what you learn isthat the skin is almost acting
like the pituitary gland or likethe hypothalamus in its
production of all these peptideprohormones and melanocortin
peptides.

(51:06):
So what nature wants, in myopinion and this is my reading
of the situation is that itwants complete congruence of the
signal between the eyes and theskin so that it can align
production of thosemelanocortins, of that to have
the highest fidelity signal andthe most accurate attempt at

(51:29):
pigmenting or responding to theambient amount of UV light.
Melanogenesis is extremelyenergy intensive.
It involves a massive amount ofenergy to run those tyrosinase
enzymes, using copper, using allthese inputs to make melanin.
So it's not going to do itunless it absolutely has to.
That's why people's tan fadesto make melanin.
So it's not going to do itunless it absolutely has to.

(51:50):
That's why people's tan fades.
But what this shows is thatwhen the brain and the eyes have
an alignment in their UVexposure, it's providing the
most optimal circuit, and Ithink that's what the body is
doing.
The UV is hitting the eyes.
It's like okay, let's tan,let's prepare our skin, and
probably compounds melanocortinsthat are being produced
centrally are then forinfluencing melanocytes

(52:13):
peripherally to improve theirtendency to tan.
That's my take on it, and Iknow that you wrote about Fritz
Holowicz's work, so maybe youcan expand on that as it relates
to what we just talked about.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Yeah, I fully agree with what you've said.
I mean, the skin barrier isincredible in that sense to how
it's connected to the eyes andthe brain again one unit like if
you don't have all three legsof the stool, you don't have a
stool anymore.
And so when we understand thatthe skin is able to produce
catecholamines and dopamine,melatonin, all these various
neurotransmitters and hormonesand whatnot, then it begins to

(52:45):
make sense how the entire systemis made.
And again, it makes sense,considering that circadian
biology is all about timing themore well-timed the system
according to your lifestyle, thebetter your health is and the
better results you get.
And so, going into FritzHoltwich's work in the early
1900s, I think his work wasmainly around cataracts, correct

(53:06):
.
And so he would removecataracts from, I think, human
beings and other species, and hewould see that there's this
very real endocrine effect onthe body after you remove them.
And so that also makes sense,considering that cataracts block
a substantial amount of thefull spectrum, and when you
remove them from the equation,you see all these changes in
cortisol, testosterone,estradiol, so forth.

(53:26):
And I think it's a verypowerful use case or showcase of
these things, because he notonly showed it in other species,
but he showed it in humanbeings.
So that's just.
It's an incrediblysophisticated system that we
need to really take seriouslythrough the circadian lens.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Absolutely.
And the way I talk about it isthat this is a form of sensing
environmental color and allowingthe animal to coordinate its
skin pigmentation in accordancewith its environment.
I think that was what hedemonstrated in fish and in
amphibians and we are obviouslyan extension of that lineage.

(54:03):
Melanopsin, our blue lifedetector, was literally from the
lineage of.
You know, it's a frogchromophore.
That's what Cruz told Hubermanbecause he was unaware of that
lineage.
But you know we're coming fromamphibians.
That's why it's conserved isbecause we have that ability to

(54:26):
sense blue light in the skin andin the eyes.
And that was the lineage.
But I think again, people usingthese sunglasses for cosmetic,
for aesthetic reasons, maybebecause Daniel Craig and James
Bond wears the suit and wearsthe sunnies and looks like a

(54:46):
pretty cool guy, but uh, reallythe the point that we're making
is that if you allow that lightsignal to hit your eyes and skin
in in an unfiltered way, thenthere's massive health benefits.
Um, yeah, don't, don't do it inthe middle of uh, you know, at
at 4 000 meters on a glacier?
Obviously not.

(55:08):
There's always someone whotakes it, some binary thinker
that takes it to ad absurdum.
But that's not what we'resaying we're talking about in
your general daily life, try asmuch as possible to implement
these things and report back andtell us what you find, because,
as you've said, zaid, you'veseen people who have massive
benefit.
So have I.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah, in the case of sunglasses in particular, there
are obviously circumstances thatyou need to use them, right?
I mean, I think if you're in anenvironment with a lot of glare
, it would be wise to usesunglasses occasionally to avoid
that glare, because that willbe damaging to the eyes.
You think about being on thewater, being in the desert,
being at high altitude, even ifyou look back to the

(55:47):
heliotherapy of the early 1900s,I mean, they used quartz lenses
in the form of sunglasses.
But we talked about thedifference with quartz and how
it allows that full spectrumthrough as opposed to regular
sunglasses.
But either way, they understoodintuitively that you have to
adapt according to thecircumstance, right?
It's not just this black andwhite across the board for
everybody and everything.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
The Inuit had their carved whalebone sunglasses and
they were just slits.
Those two slits and that's theexact reason.
Yeah, that blocked the glarebut allowed the full spectrum in
and these guys had.
They had a very well tanned.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of great historybehind this work and I think
that people would benefit fromjust uncovering a lot of that
and going deep into it.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah, maybe we can talk a little bit about what
else you recommend to helppeople get a full spectrum
sunlight safely, because I'vegot a bit of a list that I
advise people to safely buildyour solar callus.
Obviously, the first thing isalign your circadian rhythm.
We've already talked about howimportant getting as much red

(56:53):
and infrared from early morningAM sun on the skin before UV
arrives.
What are the other things thatyou would advise people to do?
Tick those boxes to put thecards in their favor for
long-term skin health andprevention of adverse effects of
sun exposure.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
So the way I think about it, I think it's very
helpful to frame it in thismental model.
This has been very helpful forme.
It's something that I've beenthinking about a lot in relation
to not only hormesis andhormetic adaptation, but also
the parallels to other thingslike exercise.
Right, sunbathing and exercisehave many different parallels
through the hormetic lens.
And so for me, the morning timebefore UV comes out, that's the

(57:35):
warmup, that's where you primethe skin for UV coming up.
And then, after you do that,you know you spend most of your
time outside, or most of yourskin exposed, for like 15, 20,
30 minutes.
This will differ if you haveless experience sunbathing, if
you're lighter skinned, you'regoing to have to spend more time
out, just generally.
But the midday portion, thetime where you do actually

(57:56):
sunbathe when UVA and UVB arepresent, that I view as the
training session.
So that's the exercise periodwhere you actually put yourself
under an intentional andtargeted amount of stress to be
able to go through this hormeticprocess.
And so we have the morning time, the warmup, you have the
midday, which is the trainingsession.
Lo and behold, the nighttimeserves as the recovery period,

(58:18):
or in the training perspective,that would be sleep.
And so you have that nighttimedarkness.
You have sleep in order toregenerate the entire skin
barrier comprehensively to thentake advantage of the hormetic
effect.
Because if you look at training, you know if you exercise
really hard but you're notsleeping a lot and you're not
under darkness, you're notactually going to get the

(58:38):
hormetic benefit.
You actually then turn it intodistress, which becomes a more
harmful scenario for your healthand system over the long term.
But the moment you introduceadequate recovery, that's when
you get all the benefit.
And so you always have to couplethis exposure to stress with
that exposure to recovery, andso for me that's very helpful in

(59:01):
terms of modeling it from amental perspective for people,
especially everyday laymanpeople, for people, especially
everyday layman people Outsideof that, I would say it's
largely a game of consistency,not intensity.
That's the tagline in my mindthat I always think about,
especially when talking tobeginners in this space, because
people inherently just want togo out for three to four hours

(59:24):
and try to find some sort ofhack to prevent them from
burning, when in reality youshould not be out there for
three to four hours unlessyou're under very good shade or
you're adequately protected withclothing and whatnot, and so,
for me, I think people need tohave an expectation change in
accordance to how they'reactually going to sunbathe, and

(59:45):
so for me, it's all about thelong term, as opposed to just
going fully hard in the paintover one to two weeks yeah,
great point.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
I personally recommend again, if people have
had no exposure to the sun atall and they're really starting
this solar callus journey, Ireally encourage earlier morning
and later afternoon UV bathing.
So, again, depending on whatyour environment and I always
advise people know your ancestryand know your UV environment,

(01:00:16):
because if you don't know thosethings you're not going to be
able to do this in an educatedand safe way.
But if you are mismatched toyour environment and you have a
lot less melanin, you're palerthan the indigenous people of
your area, then the onus is onyou to use the shade enough so
that you don't get burnt andperhaps after you've built up

(01:00:36):
some pigmentation, then lateryou could do shorter sessions at
higher UV intensity in themidday.
Again, just mindful of yourtiming and mindful of having
done everything that we'vediscussed in sequence prior to
attempting that Again the pointis not sunburning, sunburning is
not the point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
The point is not sunburning.
It's sunburning in the same waythat you don't want to blow a
disc out when you're doing backsquats, right?
So for me, believe it or not,those times of lower UV maybe
around like a 5, 6, 7, 8 UV forme personally I love sunbathing
in those conditions much ratherthan a UV index of 12 or 13,
because obviously you have aheat component to it.

(01:01:19):
And for me, when it's hotterand it's higher UV index, then
I'm naturally more likely to gofor seeking shade and then
seeking sun and doing that likefour to five times, more likely
to go for seeking shade and thenseeking sun and doing that like
four to five times.
Whereas if I have a UV index oflike five, six, seven, I just
spend all day out there.
For the most part I can do thesame with high UV index, but
again, the heat is really whatdrives me inside to take a break

(01:01:40):
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Interesting, and I really think that this is again
an ancestral adaption, becausethe people that could stand in a
UV index of 9, 10, 11 all dayhave massive amounts of
eumelanin that is reallyeffectively dissipating heat,
whereas you and I have melaninbut I'm probably the three, you

(01:02:03):
may be between a three and afour perhaps similarly, and we
simply don't have the epidermalmelanin to dissipate heat as
well.
So I think you and I are goingto get and people paler than us
are going to get that sensationof overwhelm, of heat stress a
lot quicker than a darkerskinned, say African type person

(01:02:24):
.
And it gets to an idea thatI've really been thinking about
with respect to ancestralappropriate sunbathing, which is
, if you think of the Swedestype person.
And it gets to an idea thatI've really been thinking about
with respect to ancestralappropriate sunbathing, which is
, if you think of the Swedes.
The Swedes, as I mentionedearlier, they get a maximum UV
index of six and it's about forone week a year, and the rest of
there's maybe UV light foranother three or four months
that year and the rest of thattime there's no UV light at all.

(01:02:46):
So they've built up a certainsuite of adaptations that are
specifically intended for thatuv environment.
So, um, it makes sense thatmaybe that person, if they, even
if they move to a higher uvindex area, might be in the long
term best to just sunbathe atmost at a six or a seven and not

(01:03:08):
go into the higher realms anduse the bookend their day and
not use the peak to kind ofreally respect the ancestral
niche of sun exposure.
I don't know what you thinkabout that idea.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Yeah, I actually fully agree.
I think that makes completesense, and all this discussion
here ties into, I think, a bigmisunderstanding.
A lot of the centralizedpractitioners and the orthodoxy
at large believes that we'rejust saying, yeah, get as much
sun as you can at any time, whocares whether it's summer or
winter?
Yeah, go ahead whatever burnLike.
That's not what we recommend.

(01:03:44):
We actually recommend a verysensible and first principle
circadian approach to where youcan progressively get into this
work and stick with it over thelong term.
Right, and so I think that'sone thing that I always have to
mention for some reason, becausethey just think we're being
very reckless in terms of ouradvice.
But again, if you look at theirphilosophy, it only makes sense
that they think that of us.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, and I think if you extend that idea of
seasonality or the day-nightcycle to the season, then you
have a really interesting ideawhich is maybe someone who is
that pale needs like a couplemonths, a year of no UV exposure
because their adaption to UVlight, as well as melanin

(01:04:25):
production, was also someepidermal thickening, as
Alexander Wunsch has previouslytalked about.
The thickening and thinning ofthe epidermis should occur
naturally and seasonally as UVlight arrives and disappears in
their environment.
Maybe they need to be makingvitamin D through cold exposure

(01:04:45):
which that's another whole topicto talk about through cold
exposure which that's anotherwhole topic to talk about in
winter, because that is moreappropriate for their skin type,
whereas, again, the darklypigmented people whose ancestors
evolved in the equator are usedto and can deal with heavy UV
all year round.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Yeah, a big seasonal component to it as well.
I do have some people DMing meand saying that they're worried
about wintertime, even though,like they're in a place that's
relatively close to the equator,right, but, or maybe even
farther away from the equator,let's say you're higher up
latitude wise, people aregenerally worried about
wintertime in terms of thatvitamin D acquisition, and I

(01:05:26):
always have to tell them thatvitamin D is number one, a
cyclical process, and so youknow, during sunny months you're
going to get a lot of it,you're going to absorb a lot of
it into your system and store itin the body fat.
You're going to get differentmetabolites of vitamin D that
you can store for the wintertime as well.
But you know, when you headinto the winter time we also get
into the discussion thatmelatonin can bind to the

(01:05:47):
vitamin D receptor, and sothere's this almost like a
switch of a program that thebody can go through from a
seasonal perspective to whereyou can get the best of both
worlds.
And either way, if you look atit like you're getting a lot of
melatonin during the summertimethrough subcellular and then
through circulatory at night,but then during the winter time
you're obviously going to take ahit from the vitamin D3 that

(01:06:11):
you produce from higher UV.
But again, you can takeadvantage of those health
benefits through wintertimemelatonin and then near infrared
light outside during the day aswell.
And so you know, nature hasfigured this out Like.
The human body is incrediblysophisticated to where you don't
have to go through the biohackroute.
You can just understand howyour body works from a seasonal
standpoint.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I do, and I think it hits at the idea of why this
idea of circadian rehab is somuch easier at the equator,
because when the temperaturedrops, no one's getting out.
Very few people are getting out, get full spectrum sunlight,
grounding, getting cold, noone's getting dark through that
whole wintertime, even thoughthat's what their circadian

(01:06:52):
biology is asking of them.
So the idea that relocation toa lower latitude is helpful I
really think it is, because ifyou have stable day-night length
and you have stable temperatureand consistent ultraviolet
light, then you can really planthis process in a much more way.

(01:07:16):
And if you have a brokencircadian clock and from decades
of blue light, decades oftechnology abuse in inverted
commas, then you might need somemore stable circadian
conditions to really heal in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, even if you're somebody who
lives at higher latitude, likeeven taking a couple week break
and going to you know a closerequator country is very fruitful
.
I've seen people have somereally great results with that.
But obviously that comes with ahigher cost, that comes with a
little bit more planning.
But either way, there's a lotof ways to skin this cat, so to
speak.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
I think it's essential if you're mismatched
to your environment, as in youhave more melanin than the
natives.
I use the example of Stormzy inthe UK.
If you're Nigerian in GreatBritain, then you don't have a
choice but to migrate to getsome more UV light, because
there is not enough UV in theenvironment year round to

(01:08:12):
satisfy that person's needs.
I've said this in otherpodcasts, but I really think it
underlies the health disparitythat we see in people of darker
pigmented skin in Australia, inthe UK, in the US.
There's a health disparity andthose people suffer
disproportionately of heartdisease, cancer, diabetes, and I

(01:08:35):
really think it's because theirlight needs aren't being met
appropriately.
I don't know what you thinkabout that idea.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Yeah, I mean, I fully agree.
I think you can track a lot ofpoints of evidence to that
conclusion.
Of course there's other thingsthat are involved, but you know,
the light portion cannot beignored, especially considering
that the circadian system is thefoundation, the root cause of
really how our body works.
So only makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
What would you?
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe effect of diet on on
photosensitivity, becausebecause it's very common again
on health, twitter and peoplewho eliminate seed oils and or
go fully carnivore, carnivorousdiet to notice that their sun
photosensitivity decreases.
So what's your take on this andwhat have you noticed in your

(01:09:22):
client encounters?

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
It's a good question.
I think it could happen becauseyou you know you could see that
result because you're justexperiencing lower chronic
inflammation.
I wouldn't be surprised to seethat outcome because you're just
generally healthier if you'reeating carnivore and you know
you're looking for higherquality cuts of meat and you're
generally more health conscioustoo.
You could also just be seekingmore of the sun, which could

(01:09:47):
happen to be in the morning time, so you could be priming your
skin without even knowing it,just because you're on this kick
of wanting to get healthierthrough carnivore and you
discover various things and youjust want to spend more time
outside.
So that could be anotherexplanation.
But I do think that there'ssomething real to the idea that
if you consume highly oxidizedand unstable fats in the form of

(01:10:09):
refined polyunsaturated fattyacids, then your skin is going
to be more susceptible to burns,and so you know.
If you think about a cellmembrane, you know lipid is
obviously an important factor tothat.
I mean, how much of a cell ismade up of fat?
Like what?
50, 60%, if I'm right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Do you know?
Yeah, I mean.
I mean it's called aphospholipid bilayer, like that.
It's a, it's a lipid, that'sexactly what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Yeah, exactly, and so it only makes sense that the
quality of the fat you consumedictates the quality of your,
your skin barrier.
And so, um, I thinkmitochondrial dysfunction is
something that we have toconsider, because you know high
deuterium content from peoplewho eat seed oils.
They also, almost all the time,consume a lot of higher
carbohydrate foods, typicallyrefined and processed, and so

(01:10:56):
that's something to consider.
But there is a fine linebetween, you know, getting
adequate sun exposure while notburning.
In that context, If you aresomebody who consumes seed oils
because I'm not this person whothinks you have to cut them out
entirely I don't think you haveto be that strict.
I've seen people just minimizethem to a certain degree and
they're still able to get greatresults without burns.

(01:11:17):
But yeah, it's kind ofinteresting because sunlight,
high UV, depletes deuterium, orsunlight in general depletes
deuterium, which is a bigcomponent to the seed oil
discussion.
But then, on the other hand,you don't want to take it too
far to where you can burn,because that can create just a
nastier scenario for your skinbarrier.
So I think all things inbalance here more consumption of

(01:11:37):
saturated monounsaturated fats,and then obviously there's a
distinction between refinedPUFAs and then I think, whole
food nutrient dense within afood complex, polyunsaturated
fatty acids such as wild caughtseafood, the DHA, the EPA that's
all super important stuff toskin integrity and also response
to full spectrum cell nightexposure.

(01:11:58):
So all of these things cometogether to, I guess, just have
a more common sense approach toit all.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Yeah, I think it's a big part of the discussion.
I personally advise people toreally avoid refined
polyunsaturated oils and eatliberally from the marine food
web to load their layers withthese omega-3s, the EHA and DPA,
epa and DHA.
I guess my concern is long-termabout things like developing

(01:12:30):
solar keratosis, potentiallysquamous and basal cell
carcinomas, because if we'redoing this on a long-term point
of view, yes, those cancersaren't responsible for mortality
, but they can be very nasty andrecurrent head and neck BCCs.
They can be extremely,extremely bad.

(01:12:52):
So, yeah, my thought is to getthat fatty acid ratio as close
to as sexually appropriate aspossible four to one or kind of
better and just because we wantto look after that skin as much
as possible.
We do have good evidence thatthose fatty acids can help

(01:13:13):
reduce photosensitivity.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
So yeah, yeah, it's an important thing.
I mean, the strategy, I think,depends on the timeframe.
So if somebody is just tryingto, I guess, avoid burns in the
short term, they don't have tocompletely cut them out.
But I think minimizing to acertain degree will help right.
But over the long term, Icertainly think that people
should stair-step their way tothe point where they have no

(01:13:36):
consumption of refined seed oils, because that inevitably will,
in my opinion, destroymitochondria over time.
It will cause these secondaryand third-order consequences
within the system of the skinbarrier, and that can also lead
you to being at a highersusceptibility of developing
some sort of skin cancer,whether it be melanoma or
non-melanoma.
So yeah, I fully agree on thatend.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
Damn, we've already reached like over an hour and we
haven't talked about, wehaven't even got into the
melanoma debate or the melanomaissue in full, I guess, or the
melanoma issue in full, I guess.
Maybe I'll share with you aclinical anecdote.
I had a farmer who was maybe inhis mid-50s and this is an
extremely nice gentleman, butnot someone whom health was a

(01:14:18):
priority and he had obstructivesleep apnea, had visceral fat,
although he worked outside.
When he took his shirt off hewas pale.
He was pale under his shirt andessentially I excised a
pigmented lesion on his rightarm and the pathology came back
and it was a melanoma in situ.

(01:14:38):
And I asked him has that areabeen sun-exposed?
And he's like it's been undermy shirt for the past 20 years.
So getting to this idea ofmelanoma and superficial
spreading melanoma, particularlyin young people, I believe this
is a problem of immunedysfunction or immune
ineffectiveness and I think thatperson's immune system has not

(01:15:01):
surveilled and essentiallyremoved those precancerous
melanocytes before they couldessentially turn into melanoma.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Yeah, and what is that?
The chief function of apoptosis, autophagy, all these
anti-cancer processes that areunder circadian control, right?
So just because you're outsidewithin if you're a farmer, you
spend a lot of time outside, youget a lot of near infrared that
doesn't mean you'reautomatically protected from
these manifestations.
I think there's a lot more tothe equation, right?
And so, for me, I think thatthe thing that I'm coming to

(01:15:33):
realize is that and this is aworking hypothesis, I'm always
evolving in my understanding ofthis work All of these odd
manifestations with the skin,for me, can be explained through
the circadian lens veryadequately.
So if we're talking aboutvitiligo, you know melanocyte
loss, if we're talking abouthyperpigmentation or any of

(01:15:54):
these skin cancers, I think thecircadian lens offers such a
comprehensive and common senseway to view it that you know it
almost makes sense that youwould want to have everything
dialed in as much as you can,and of course, most people don't
, which is why I think all thesemanifestations are on the rise.
But again, even weird thingslike what do they call them?

(01:16:15):
Cherry angiomas or sunspots,they call them All these
different things that canactually be explained pretty
well through the circadian lens,and I've done my due diligence
on trying to understand all thatbe explained pretty well
through the circadian lens andI've done my due diligence on
trying to understand all that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Yeah, like you say, I think 99.99999% of people
aren't respecting theircircadian rhythm as ancestrally
designated, and that is becausewe've got electric lighting and
we've got devices, and peoplehave careers and jobs that
prevent them from spending themorning with their bare feet on
the ground, looking to the east.

(01:16:52):
I mean, that's the reality andwe're not judging anyone for
that.
But I think the lack ofadherence to those circadian
principles, as Zaid has justsaid, is probably underlying a
large degree of why someonemight go on to develop pathology
or disease in these situations.
And I agree, I agree there'salways going to be a confluence

(01:17:15):
of causes, component causes andmixed in with obviously a
necessary cause, depending onwhat we're talking about.
But absolutely it's so abnormalto have all these circadian
signals dialed that it reallyneeds to be a work in progress,
I think, for people to worktowards if they're going to go

(01:17:37):
out and do something likedeliberate sun exposure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool.
So anything else you want todiscuss quickly or finish off
with before we wrap this up?

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
For me, I mean right now.
I just posted a recent article,actually this morning, on
ferrooptosis.
I think ferrooptosis is a veryinteresting phenomenon, this
iron-dependent form of celldeath that has been recently
discovered, maybe in like, Imean maybe the past 10 years or
so, I'm not sure on the date,but again, blue light toxicity,
isolated blue in its ability tocreate ferrooptosis, which, if

(01:18:13):
you think about this process Imean obviously mitochondria
create ROS and RNS to a certaindegree, right For cellular
signaling, for immune function,for all of these different
things, mitochondrial biogenesis.
But I think the real keyproblem is that centralized
orthodoxy demonizes ROS and RNSand they don't just because
they're implicated in somedisease models and whatnot,

(01:18:34):
they're a necessary step inexcess to create disease.
But again, they don'tunderstand how important these
signaling molecules are.
They're hormetic signalingmolecules and, more importantly,
I think if they're taken toofar through circadian disruption
, through whatever modernlifestyle habit, that can lead
to some very real consequencesover the long term that I think

(01:18:57):
can be better explained throughthat circadian lens.
So there's a lot to explore,there's a lot to learn.
I find myself increasinglygoing out to the edge to try to
understand these very weirdthings that are happening.
I like to explain thedifference between the truck
driver case study exploring thatthrough a circadian lens, all
these dermatology picture casestudies that they throw out to
try to demonize the sun, and allthat.

(01:19:18):
There's a lot of circadianexplanations to be had there.
So either way, it's a fun time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Yeah, and it's great that you're doing that, because
we need more than just one.
Take on this whole storyAbsolutely.
And, yeah, thank you, Iappreciate your coming on and
sharing these criticallyimportant perspectives, because
I think we both agree that thesun is there to aid health, but

(01:19:45):
we just have to know how to useit appropriately and safely.
So, yeah, I hope the listenershave taken away some useful
points because, yeah, you'velaid out a whole bunch of great
information, so, thank you verymuch.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
Yeah, I appreciate it , max.
Hopefully we'll do another one,and there's so much to learn,
so who knows what we'll explore?

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
Cool.
So where can people find you ifthey want to connect with you
or to learn more about your work?

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
where we have a lot more fun.
We just recently had Mark Bellon.
We had one of the top midwivesin the nation in the US on.
So we're coming out with moreepisodes more educationally
focused, but either way, a lotto learn.
A lot of stuff on the Substacktoo.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
Epic and yeah, highly recommend Zayt's Substack.
So all right.
Thanks very much, mate, andyeah, talk again soon.
Thank you, max, appreciate it.

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91. Zaid Dahhaj: Sun Exposure & Rethinking Dermatology's Core Principles

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