August 15, 2024 • 31 mins
#061 Prioritizing personal well-being and family needs is essential, even if it means transitioning to a completely different career path. Wen Hung, a former occupational therapist, reflects on the pivotal moments that led her to leave her rehab profession, including the challenges of inadequate maternity leave and the impact of COVID-19 on her work-life balance. Through a friend's advice, she found a new career that allowed her to prioritize her well-being and family, all while working from home.
In this episode, you will learn the differences between the potential earnings and challenges of full-time and commission-based roles, the best platforms for finding job opportunities, the traits that make a successful recruiter, the harsh realities of the job market as a recruiter, and passive income sources such as rental properties.
From Wen's initial role in patient education for medical devices to learning UX/UI design, she finally found her niche in recruiting. Emphasizing the importance of empathy and active listening, Wen provides actionable tips on building strong candidate relationships and navigating the complexities of career transitions. Don't miss our conversation which is packed with practical advice and insights for those considering becoming a recruiter.
For links and show notes, head to: https://rehabrebels.org/061
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career?
Hear inspiring stories fromothers just like you and learn
the best ways to bridge yourcareer gap.
This podcast has you covered.
Now here's your host, doctor ofphysical therapy and podcaster,
Tanner Welsh.
Tanner Welsch (00:21):
Welcome back to another Rehab Rebels episode.
This episode is to showcasealternative careers, and this
particular alternative career isin recruiting.
Today, we're going to interviewNguyen, who transitioned into a
recruiting role.
She is from Indonesia, attendedColumbia University College of
(00:44):
Physician and Surgeons, and thenshe's currently recruiting in
the logistics and supply chainsector.
And a big takeaway from thisinterview is prioritizing
personal well-being and familyneeds is essential, even if it
means transitioning to acompletely different career path
.
Recognizing when a professiondoesn't align with our values
(01:05):
and lifestyle is crucial forlong-term fulfillment.
Moreover, embracingopportunities even in unfamiliar
territories can lead tounexpected success and a better
work-life balance.
So with that Wyn, welcome tothe show.
Wen Hung (01:20):
Hi Tanner, Thanks for having me here.
Tanner Welsch (01:23):
Right, tanner, thanks for having me here.
Let's go ahead and dive intothe journey and the start to you
.
What would you say was maybethe first signs of awareness
that the traditional rehab roleand career wasn't really a good
fit or it wasn't working out nolonger for you.
Wen Hung (01:42):
That was when I had kids.
So before I had kids, I wasworking overtime, sometimes
seven days a week, because wewere so patient-centered.
But once I had children, Irealized that I was needed more
at home and I wanted to be athome a lot more.
Healthcare just doesn't providethat kind of flexibility, and
that's what I started thinkingis this what I should be doing,
(02:04):
full time right now and puttingmy family in the backseat?
Tanner Welsch (02:08):
Absolutely.
Was there a decisive momentthat you realized you know this
rehab career is no longer foryou or, you know, did something
happen and because of thatparticular moment it was OK,
yeah, I'm doing somethingdifferent from here on out?
Wen Hung (02:23):
I think, two major incidents.
First, of course, was thelimited maternity leave that we
were given and I wasn't allowedto or able to take more time.
And then COVID hit and, likeeverybody else, we had to
scramble and I had to do childtherapy and Mike and Staker were
close, we were multitasking alittle bit.
Some incidents happened, likemy son, who was at the time
(02:44):
eight months old.
Mike and Snake were close, weremultitasking a little bit.
Some incidents happened, likemy son, who was at the time
eight months old, I think.
He tried to climb up the stairsand fell.
You know it was only two steps,but I was in the middle of a
session so I had to lunge andgrab him, make sure he's okay.
So yeah, it was those.
Two major incidents really justmade me think.
Maybe this is just notsomething that I can do right
now while being the most presentand available parent.
Tanner Welsch (03:07):
Yeah, I'm curious the backstory with how you
landed in the recruiting role.
There's many differentalternative career paths.
Can you give us a little bit ofbackstory as either why this
particular one and or how didyou actually land this
particular one?
Wen Hung (03:23):
Sure, yeah.
So I got really lucky.
My friend has been a recruiterfor 30 odd years in logistics
and supply chain and he's alwayssaid you know, you should try
to be really good at it.
And I had no idea what supplychain was.
I also didn't really know whathooting involved.
But we moved to San Diego.
My family and I moved to SanDiego two and a half years ago
(03:44):
and I was in between jobsthinking, well, do I go back to
OT or do I pursue something else?
And so my friend said, well,you're not doing anything right
now, might as well try it out.
There's no commitment, it's a100% commission-based position.
So I did.
I didn't even submit my resume.
So I got really lucky.
That way he worked with anagency.
Tanner Welsch (04:19):
The owner was really open to give me a chance.
So, yeah, that's where we gotstarted.
My friend mentored me, taughtme everything.
The whole process taught meabout logistic.
There was also a lot ofself-teaching on my part, but
yeah, that's how I got you know,other than the opportunity was
right in front of you.
Was there something that wasreally interesting about it or
that?
Okay, yeah, this seems like itwould be a good fit for me, kind
of thing.
Wen Hung (04:31):
Well, it was still helping people in a way.
So I like that because, again,most healthcare professionals we
are by nature, we're just, welike to help people out, we like
to problem solve.
So I like the fact that I wouldbe helping people find better
positions, better salaries maybe, and I'm also helping companies
find ideal candidates to jointheir team.
(04:53):
And then I also loved that Ican work home.
I can set my own hours.
That was a huge draw for me.
Tanner Welsch (05:00):
For sure.
Was there any additionaltraining or coursework that you
had to go through to be able todo your job or qualify for the
position?
Wen Hung (05:10):
Not necessarily.
I took, I think, one or twoLinkedIn courses just, but it,
you know it wouldn't haveaffected my job performance
either way.
I just took it just just to getsome background in recruiting
and diversity and inclusion justto get some background in
recruiting and diversity andinclusion.
Most of the time that I justread articles on my own.
I followed some recruiters onYouTube, on Instagram, you know,
(05:32):
just to see what their processis.
I had to learn about duality insearching, so there were a
couple of technical things thatI definitely had to YouTube and
learn on my own and listen.
Thank goodness for technologyand social media right, because
where where we would be?
So yeah, so it was a lot ofself-teaching and deep diving
into Google.
Tanner Welsch (05:49):
Was that, both before applying to the role and
getting accepted and also duringactually being employed, like
learning and refining yourskills further too?
Wen Hung (05:58):
It was after I accepted the recruiting role and
I just start deep diving intowhat do I need to learn?
The technical stuff and alsothe processes, because I think
every recruiter has a slightlydifferent process, so I just had
to come up with my own style.
So that was interesting.
Tanner Welsch (06:15):
I love that.
Yeah.
What are some personalstruggles, or maybe one that
stands out to you, going throughthis transition, finding this
alternative career that you werein now, and how did you
overcome that?
Wen Hung (06:29):
Well, it was definitely going into a whole
new sector.
Like I said, I didn't know whatlogistics and supply chain was,
so I had to read up on it.
There's a lot of educationalmaterial out there that various
companies provide.
That was, I think, the most,and it's still a challenging
part for me.
Learning how to speak corporateis also different, because at
(06:50):
Health Care we're sostraightforward, right when
we're just, this is yourdiagnosis, this is the treatment
plan.
We just get right to the point.
And in corporate, you know, Ihad to learn all that corporate
lingo, so that was, that wasalso a learning curve for me.
Tanner Welsch (07:05):
What would you say was at risk if you didn't
pursue this alternative careerand you didn't take this
opportunity?
Wen Hung (07:10):
I would say probably my mental health and also being
available to my kids.
Yeah, I was definitely noticingthat I wasn't as patient with
them when I was working inhealthcare full time, so that
was definitely a change, justbeing able to be with them and
setting my own hours.
So I would do a chunk of myrecruiting work at 9 pm, after I
put them to bed, you know, andall the chores are done.
(07:31):
That's when I would starthunkering down and doing my
sourcing and schedule sendingemails.
So, yeah, I think the mentalhealth aspect of it and you know
mental health but I also thinkthat as a happiness and being
present, I think that would havebeen a huge part that I
sacrificed had I continued to goto be in healthcare full time.
Tanner Welsch (07:51):
Absolutely.
Was there other alternativecareers that you were looking
into and or applying to?
Did you like field test acouple other places before you
actually landed this recruitingrole?
Or was it just you were solelyfocused on this recruiting role
and that's what you stuck to andthat's how you got where you're
at?
Wen Hung (08:09):
No, actually I did teletherapy for a little bit,
just, you know, agency basedwith a school that I never
worked with.
That was a little challengingbecause I didn't have any
connections with the student orthe school, so it was very
impersonal and I did not enjoythat.
So I did that for about eightmonths.
And then I did a contractpatient education role for a
(08:30):
medical device company where Iwould go and teach patients how
to wear the garment.
It was almost doing anevaluation as OTs and PTs.
It's just a one stop and thenyou never see them again, you
never know how they progress.
That again was not verysatisfying for me.
I did a course on UX UI anddecided that tech was not for me
(08:50):
.
So yeah, so I explored a littlebit of this, a little bit of
that, and then that's whenprotruding fell into my lap and
it just took off.
Tanner Welsch (08:59):
Nice, the courses that you're referencing.
Were they all on LinkedIn orwhere would somebody find some
of these courses that you'retalking about?
Wen Hung (09:07):
Coursera has a lot of really useful courses and it's
just introduction to whatever itcould be UX, UI, account
managing, data analysis.
I definitely recommend Udemyhas a lot of intro courses as
well for people who are thinkingabout looking at other options
in career.
Tanner Welsch (09:25):
For sure.
What were maybe some of thefirst signs of traction with
this new recruiting role?
That, oh man, this actually canwork.
I see myself doing thislong-term and everything was
coming together for you.
Wen Hung (09:37):
I think it was the speed that I made my first
placement.
So in recruiting they alwayssay that you build up a network
first, so don't expect aplacement until your third or
fourth month.
And I made my first placementwithin a month.
I found my first candidate intwo weeks and then, you know,
started the interview processand salary negotiation.
(09:59):
Well, actually I did my firsttwo placements within a month of
starting the position.
So I was like, well, maybe I'mtalented at this.
So I think the immediateprogress definitely was
encouraging.
And then it just went fromthere.
I just had really good resultsthat first year.
Tanner Welsch (10:19):
What would you say was the difference between,
or maybe what have you learnedfrom being outside of this
particular recruiting role toactually being in it?
Now you know what are somethings that you can say about it
that you know for sure frombeing in it, experiencing it and
working in it that you didn'tknow before.
That would maybe be good tohave known before.
(10:40):
Or if there's somebody elsethat's thinking about going in
the recruiting role, that theydon't know what it's like
because they haven't worked inthat role.
But what would you share withthem?
That's, man.
I wish I would have known thisbefore.
Wen Hung (10:51):
I think in healthcare we are always so on demand so we
don't really see the absencewell, of the job market.
That's what I'm learning rightnow.
A lot of companies had a hardtime last year.
2023 was tough for everybodytech, furniture, logistics
especially so I'm seeing nowthat when the market isn't good
(11:12):
and there are layoffs, thenrecruiters don't really have
anything to do, right, Nobody'shiring.
I'm having candidates come tome and say, well, I just got
laid off, Can you find mesomething?
And it's a tough conversation Ihave with them and that the job
market is just not looking verypositive these days.
That's a hard lesson for me andit's a big change from coming
(11:33):
from healthcare when we'realways just sought after there's
always job in healthcare.
Tanner Welsch (11:38):
So with that, does your actual work have ebbs
and flows where there's some,you know, weeks or months maybe
that there is no placement thatyou're able to make, just
because of how the economy isand things, and so you maybe
have to budget differently forhaving some months that you
don't get as much income orcompensation because of how the
industry or economy is.
Wen Hung (11:58):
For sure.
Yep In 2022, the job market forlogistics and supply chain it
was booming.
So there were weeks when I wasdoing 40 hours and I made maybe
three placements a month.
And then we come to 2023 and Imaybe did one placement every
two months.
It was just slower.
Nobody was hiring.
(12:18):
People are getting laid off.
So, yeah, you definitely haveto expect it and budget
accordingly.
It's like we're to be like asteady paycheck.
Tanner Welsch (12:28):
With that.
Since we're kind of on thetopic, do you do anything else
on the side?
Do you have any other jobs, oris there any passive income
that's set up or properties orrental properties or something
that keeps you afloat wheneveryou know you're not having as
many commissions or paycheckcoming in?
Wen Hung (12:44):
Yeah, I have two rental properties, one in New
York City, one in San Diego,although ironically I just put
both on the market.
Well, last week.
If anybody wants to buy a condoin New York City, let me know.
So I did have those two rentalproperties and I am actually
flipping it to.
Now I'm buying properties inGeorgia.
(13:04):
Just you know, I looked at theoverhead taxes.
So, yes, I definitely rely onrental income.
I love property, I love realestate.
In a different life I wouldhave been a real estate broker.
So I definitely love havingthat passive rental income, for
sure.
Tanner Welsch (13:18):
I wasn't intending to get on this topic
but since we're on it, I'minterested myself in rental
properties.
I don't have any experience init, I haven't taken the plunge,
but is there a resource or howwould you recommend getting
started and learning and growingwithin that particular income
stream?
Wen Hung (13:36):
There is a podcast that's very interesting.
It's all about real estate andit covers passive income and
what states to buy.
I just listened to an episodewhere they say that big college
football states are very goodfor rental properties.
Let's say Michigan.
There's Alabama, so there'sthat, and then I just always
(13:56):
tune up on real estate.
Landlord-tenant laws are veryimportant.
Like in California, it's verytenant-friendly.
So as a landlord, it's veryhard to be a landlord here, so
that's why I'm selling my SanDiego property.
But yeah, I think it's just alot of just reading and
listening to podcasts and I'llsend you the one that I'm
listening to Tanner.
It's very interesting.
(14:17):
It goes over a lot of e-lockand should you buy a rental
property?
Should you pay for it by cashor things like that.
Definitely interesting topic.
Yeah, Wonderful.
Tanner Welsch (14:27):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting the link
there and we'll include that inthe show notes too.
What are maybe some practicalnot obvious skills that make you
a great fit for the work you donow?
Wen Hung (14:40):
So I've always been told early on by candidates and
clients.
They always say, wow, youlisted a lot more than other
recruiters.
And I do find that because Ihave now worked with other
recruiters.
Either we're called jointly orwe're working on the same team
and they talk a lot, because Ifeel like recruiters are kind of
like sales we're selling acandidate a job and we're
(15:01):
selling companies our candidatesso they tend to talk more and
they listen.
And my calls are 80% consistsof me listening, 20% consists of
me telling the candidate thisis what the company is looking
for and this is why I thinkyou'd be good at this position
or you'd be good to sit for thisteam.
I think listening is one of mysuperpowers and that definitely
(15:24):
comes from being in thehealthcare world for 20
something years, where we'rejust really, really listening,
not just verbal but alsononverbal.
Right the pauses.
If you're in person, you'relooking at posture, facial
expressions.
That's what we're good at.
But, yeah, listening is reallyimportant.
Tanner Welsch (15:41):
For sure.
Let's say somebody wants toresearch some job opportunities
that are related to recruiting,where would they go to look for,
like, a list of potentialopenings or jobs that are in
their recruiting realm?
Is there a certain platformthat they're on or certain
keywords that they should beusing to try to find these
opportunities?
Wen Hung (16:00):
That's a great question.
A lot of people have asked methat I like LinkedIn because
there's a lot of jobs posted onLinkedIn and LinkedIn is a
social media platform at thispoint.
So I always tell people toconnect with as many recruiters
as possible, as many recruitingfirms as possible, because you
never know if somebody will giveyou an opportunity with no
(16:20):
experience.
So LinkedIn is a big one andactually I just did a search
yesterday because my friendasked me, and there's a few
entry-level recruiting positionsposted right now for various
it's usually 1099commission-based positions, so
you have to be ready for that.
That is only commission-based.
You're not going to get anyhourly salary or benefits, so
you have to be ready for that.
(16:41):
Another website is Reload and itgives you a taste of recruiting
, but it's almost.
They'll pay you just to refer acandidate.
So that's always an interestingstarting point.
There's no investment in it.
You sign up for it and thenyou'll see a list of jobs that
are open and then there's anicon to refer a candidate to
apply for the job yourself, andthen it gives you the monetary
(17:04):
value of referring a candidate.
So I think that's aninteresting website if you just
want to dabble a little bit inrecruiting and see if you have a
knack for it.
Tanner Welsch (17:12):
For sure I love that source.
Thanks for sharing that.
What do you love most aboutyour new reality as a recruiter?
Wen Hung (17:19):
The flexibility hands down Working from home whatever
hours I want to.
Like I said, I do a lot of mywork at night that allows me to
pick up my kids, drop off mykids, take them to all their
after school activities and bethe flexibility Love that.
Tanner Welsch (17:34):
What would you say comparing, maybe income-wise
or salary-wise, on average,what a recruiter makes to what
you were making in the rehabfield?
Tell us what people can expectin those different income
streams.
Wen Hung (17:48):
I'm going to compare this to healthcare work in
contract as a 1099, because,again, benefits are just a whole
different income that we cancompare it to.
So my husband and I actuallysat down and calculated and I
may shoot it three times moreper hour doing recruiting than
doing home care right now in OTand we're taking the California
(18:12):
rate, which is about anywherefrom I'm going to say 45 to 60
an hour per visit.
So we actually sat down becauseI was, or should I go back into
OT?
You know, I'm still keeping mylicense active, I'm still doing
the CEUs.
He's a business owner, so he'svery good with these numbers.
Still doing the CEUs.
He's a business owner, so he'svery good with these numbers.
So he sat down and he's likeokay, let's take your income
based from last year, which wasa slow year for recruiting, and
(18:35):
he said give me the best casescenario for home care in San
Diego.
So he did and he said yep,you're going to have to work for
every one hour that you do inrecruiting.
You're going to have to workfor every one hour that you do
recruiting, you're going to haveto do three home care visits,
including driving right,including lifting, transferring,
reading and investing all thoseequipment right.
There are bands and all that.
Tanner Welsch (18:55):
Who do you feel would be a good fit to be a
recruiter?
Maybe personality type or dailytasks that you have to do?
If you're going to hiresomebody to work under you in
this role, what would you belooking for?
Who would be a good match?
Wen Hung (19:09):
Somebody who is really organized, analytical even, who
can handle rejection, becauseyou will get rejected a lot as a
recruiter and you can't take itpersonally.
And I say organization becauseyou're going to have to remember
which client needs, whatposition sells and what
candidate has what backgroundstory and talent and stuff like
(19:29):
that.
I don't have the best memory.
I call it mom brain and so I'mconstantly taking those.
I have pages and pages of Worddocuments on my laptop just to
keep everything organized.
So I think somebody who'sdefinitely those are the main
traits I think that would makeyou good at this job.
Tanner Welsch (19:47):
I'm imagining myself in a recruiting role and
I see myself having a mentalstruggle with if I put quite a
bit of effort and time intosomebody but then nothing
actually comes of it.
Was that time wasted?
Wen Hung (20:11):
You know, and if that keeps happening over and over
and over again, it seemsdiscouraging.
Can you talk to us a little,maybe a little bit about that or
how you manage?
That Took me about, I'm goingto say, eight months.
It was for a senior accountingrole and the company just had
very specific demand.
I won't say I'm on the verge ofquitting.
Even my boss said maybe youshould step away from this and I
(20:32):
was like no, because that'sjust my personality, I'm just.
You know, the more challengingit is, the more I'm going to go
at it.
But yeah, even he offered meyou should step away.
You know, maybe you're wastingyour time and I said no, no, no,
I'm going to find somebody forthis position.
I know I can do it.
And then we did at the end, butit took a solid eight months.
However, within those eightmonths, I am working on 10 other
places.
(20:53):
So that's the beauty ofrecruiting too.
You're not just working on oneproject, I'm going to say
replacement You're.
You might be working on 10different things.
That's part of the job really,and things that's part of the
job really, and some go quick.
I've done places.
In two weeks I found anotheraccountant position, you know,
within the same day I found theperson and then it was just the
interview process, salarynegotiation.
That took two weeks, but withina day, you know, the first
(21:15):
interview, the guy was like youknow, she's the one for us and
that was it.
And some just take for a runner, yeah.
Tanner Welsch (21:21):
Do you get to choose these positions that need
filling, or are they just givento you and then you're expected
to find somebody?
Wen Hung (21:28):
I can because it's a contract position.
So I work for an agency andalso I'm an external recruiter,
which means that I don't workfor a specific company.
I work with an agency, right?
Contract therapist you can pickwhat patient you want to see,
for how long you know.
Let's say I want to work onthis position.
(21:49):
I'll tell the agency owner, canI take a crack at this?
And he'll usually say yes, he'sreally good about giving us
options.
And then let's say I've beenworking on this position for six
months and I'm just having noluck at it.
I'll ask my team does anyonewant to take over?
I'm just not having any luckwith this position?
And usually somebody will say,yeah, sure, I'll take over.
So there's definitely a lot offlexibility with this agency
(22:11):
that I'm working with.
Tanner Welsch (22:12):
Are you employed by the agency or you just have
the contract between you and theagency?
Wen Hung (22:18):
It's a contract.
A lot of us have side gigs.
I think one of the peopleworking in the agency has their
dog toy business or something.
So a lot of us have differentside gigs and then we do this as
well.
Tanner Welsch (22:31):
Okay, I'm curious about the contract.
I would have no idea where tostart when trying to set up a
contract in this particular job.
How did you manage that and howdid you end up setting up the
contract?
Or what resources did you use?
How did all that come together?
Wen Hung (22:46):
Oh, the owner gave me the contract to sign.
So he's been doing recruitingfor 35 years as well, so he
obviously knows what to write inthe contract and whatnot.
I think there's one sectionwhere it was a non-compete
section.
That was the only thing thatstood out to me.
Everything was pretty standard.
Standard contract that you signwith any healthcare agency if
you decide to work contract withthem.
Tanner Welsch (23:06):
Since we're on the topic, something else that I
keep an eye out on when signingcontracts or working for a
company and signing all thedocuments, is intellectual
property clauses, which oftenstate that whatever you own or
you do create on your own orwhatever, that the company
you're choosing to work for willactually acquire that and own
(23:28):
it.
I've seen some clauses likethat that are just I can't sign
this because I have rehab rebelsor I have something on the side
or I have a business, and howit's worded is really sketchy.
So just a little heads up there.
What is obvious to you now thatyou struggled to see in the
past, in the moment when youwere working in the rehab
traditional rehab space.
Wen Hung (23:49):
You know, I question why I didn't walk away sooner.
My kids are five and six now,so if I had walked away sooner,
maybe I would have been able tospend more time with them.
I think when you're inhealthcare, especially when
you're in a school setting or ahospital setting, that
commitment, that loyalty that wehave to our patient and our
team is so strong.
That was definitely a struggle.
(24:09):
I've been wanting to leave myjob my previous job for a while
and it was that loyalty thatkept me going.
Tanner Welsch (24:16):
Do you feel that this recruiting role is actually
something that you'd be able todo, or anybody you know
generally would be able to do ontheir own and support
themselves without any sort ofother sources of income, even
though there's ebbs and flows inthe work?
Wen Hung (24:34):
income, even though there's ebbs and flows in the
work.
I've been talking to this withpeople who reach out to me about
wanting to transition fromhealthcare to recruiting and I
always firstly explain thedifference between internal
recruiting and externalrecruiting.
Also, for 1099 commission-basedphysician versus a W-2.
Tanner Welsch (24:47):
Can you sum up those things for us?
Wen Hung (24:50):
Sure, an internal recruiter is.
Mostly you're hired by acompany.
So let's say, prohealthcarehires you as their internal
recruiter.
You only work for them, so youhave to do whatever assignments
they ask you, whateverplacements they ask you to do.
If they ask you to find 10 PTsin Michigan, you have to
complete that assignment.
There's really no picking andchoosing.
But with that comes benefits.
(25:11):
If you're full-time, usuallyit's 40 hours or so and then
there's usually a base salary.
There's sometimes a bonus andmaybe even a commission,
depending on the company.
But it's definitely not.
It's a much smaller bonus andcommission.
You can have a base salary, youcan have a smaller commission
(25:33):
or you can be like me, wherewe're 100% commission-based.
The commission is larger but Idon't get benefits or an hourly
base salary.
But as an external recruiterworking for an agency, you work
for many different companies.
You can work for 20 differenthospitals, helping them staff,
various locations and variouspositions.
So there's definitely morethings to work on.
(25:54):
Keeps it more exciting, for meat least.
And W-2 and 1099, I think a lotof health professionals know
this because everybody has aside gig at some point.
Right, everybody had a 1099side gig at some point.
So again 1099 and you don't gettaxes taken out of your
paycheck.
You're responsible for it atthe end of the year.
Most of us pay an estimatedquarterly tax to help us budget.
(26:16):
Yeah, and W-2 is just astraight up.
You get social security takenout, you normally get benefits
and you are in a salariedposition.
So if you call out sick you'restill getting paid.
You normally have standard PTOs, sick days and whatnot.
I think that summarizes it.
Jump in Tanner if I missanything.
Tanner Welsch (26:36):
It sounds great.
That was perfect.
I really enjoy the differentclarifications with the
subgroups and then the taxclassifications there as well.
Follow-up question Do you feelthat the external recruiter solo
commission base what you're innow is the most lucrative
position to be in out of theones that you listed?
Wen Hung (26:56):
I think so.
The commission is just so muchhigher.
It could be double or triplewhat you meet versus being on a
W-2, let's say recruiter orsomebody who gets a base salary
the base salary if you go toLinkedIn, the base salary is
usually about $20 an hour or so,maybe $25.
But then the commission is justsignificantly lower, and I'm
(27:17):
talking about commission perplacement, right?
So yeah, I think it'sdefinitely the most lucrative
100% commission-based recruiter.
Tanner Welsch (27:25):
For sure.
What did you learn, or what aresome things that you learned in
the rehab space that aretransferable and that you apply
to this new role as a recruiternow?
Wen Hung (27:36):
Well, the listening, as I mentioned before, is
definitely important.
We have a lot of empathy, so Ido listen very close to
somebody's tone of voice, likeif they're in a very toxic work
environment.
I do try to work harder forthem.
And the ironic thing is andmaybe I shouldn't say this, but
most recruiters tend to cater tothe clients more to the
(27:57):
companies looking for candidates, because they issue us the
paycheck.
I, on the other hand, Isympathize more with the
candidate, so I tend to workmore from what do the candidates
need?
Let me see where I can placethem versus you know, looking at
these big companies and going,okay, well, what can I put you
know at your team and Idefinitely got that from the
healthcare I'm going through iton a person-based level versus
(28:20):
an organization.
Tanner Welsch (28:22):
For sure.
You made me think that focusingon the individuals that are
looking for employment and toget placed, focusing on them
first, makes sense to reallyfinding a good fit for them,
which I would assume naturallywould be a really good fit for
the employer as well.
It's more of a mutual positionand on top of that it sounds
like it would be a greatopportunity, a natural marketing
(28:45):
thing that would evolve, whichis hey, Wynne got me placed at
this great position.
She listened to me.
I really like my job.
If you're looking to get placedsomewhere else, go check her
out.
Like it seems like it would bea really good customer
relationship and marketing onits own.
So does that happen?
Or is there any marketing orhow to get your clients?
Is it, you know, word of mouthor is it solely through the
(29:07):
agency?
Like, how is all that?
Wen Hung (29:08):
So getting our clients and by clients we mean the
companies who hire us that Ileave to the agency Because,
again, I'm not from thelogistics background, so I don't
have any connections and I wishI did, because then I would be
able to go out and get moreclients and companies to sign on
with us, so that I leave to theowners of the agency and they
do a great job doing it.
(29:29):
The candidates, the people whoare looking for jobs they reach
out to me through word of mouth,through LinkedIn posts or just
through referrals.
You know, the challenge withthat is sometimes I just don't
have any openings for them.
Tanner Welsch (29:49):
Makes sense out.
You know, maybe they'reinterested in doing some sort of
recruiting or anything from theepisode today that you feel
should be emphasized, or maybethere's something that you
haven't been able to express ortalk about yet.
Wen Hung (30:02):
I say just overcome that fear of the unknown, having
to learn something new, andjust go for it.
And I tell a lot of people thishealthcare will be there.
There will always be a demandfor OTPT speech nurses, so don't
fear that if you step out ofhealth care that you can never
go back into it, because you can.
I mean, I still get recruitedby headhunters, you know, from
(30:24):
agencies all the time right.
So we know that the job marketis there.
So I think this year is what'sstopping a lot of people.
I also think, on the morecommon sense side, budget for
this transition.
If you decide to leave yourhealthcare position and then
focus on transitioning to anon-clinical or non-healthcare
role, you might go without anincome for a couple of months.
(30:47):
So budget for it.
Tanner Welsch (30:49):
Nice caveat.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to come on the show and
share your story with us andyour pointers All the stuff we
talked about will be in the shownotes, including your LinkedIn
profile, so if anybody wants toreach out to you, maybe have
some follow up questions for you.
And yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you.
Wen Hung (31:07):
Thanks for having me.
It was really fun.
Tanner, Nice chatting with you.
Tanner Welsch (31:11):
Anytime.
Intro (31:12):
Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to rehabrebelsorgor follow us on Instagram at
rehabrebelspodcast.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career?
Hear inspiring stories fromothers just like you and learn
the best ways to bridge yourcareer gap.
This podcast has you covered.
Now here's your host, doctor ofphysical therapy and podcaster,
Tanner Welsh.
Tanner Welsch (00:21):
Welcome back to another Rehab Rebels episode.
This episode is to showcasealternative careers, and this
particular alternative career isin recruiting.
Today, we're going to interviewNguyen, who transitioned into a
recruiting role.
She is from Indonesia, attendedColumbia University College of
(00:44):
Physician and Surgeons, and thenshe's currently recruiting in
the logistics and supply chainsector.
And a big takeaway from thisinterview is prioritizing
personal well-being and familyneeds is essential, even if it
means transitioning to acompletely different career path
.
Recognizing when a professiondoesn't align with our values
(01:05):
and lifestyle is crucial forlong-term fulfillment.
Moreover, embracingopportunities even in unfamiliar
territories can lead tounexpected success and a better
work-life balance.
So with that Wyn, welcome tothe show.
Wen Hung (01:20):
Hi Tanner, Thanks for having me here.
Tanner Welsch (01:23):
Right, tanner, thanks for having me here.
Let's go ahead and dive intothe journey and the start to you
.
What would you say was maybethe first signs of awareness
that the traditional rehab roleand career wasn't really a good
fit or it wasn't working out nolonger for you.
Wen Hung (01:42):
That was when I had kids.
So before I had kids, I wasworking overtime, sometimes
seven days a week, because wewere so patient-centered.
But once I had children, Irealized that I was needed more
at home and I wanted to be athome a lot more.
Healthcare just doesn't providethat kind of flexibility, and
that's what I started thinkingis this what I should be doing,
(02:04):
full time right now and puttingmy family in the backseat?
Tanner Welsch (02:08):
Absolutely.
Was there a decisive momentthat you realized you know this
rehab career is no longer foryou or, you know, did something
happen and because of thatparticular moment it was OK,
yeah, I'm doing somethingdifferent from here on out?
Wen Hung (02:23):
I think, two major incidents.
First, of course, was thelimited maternity leave that we
were given and I wasn't allowedto or able to take more time.
And then COVID hit and, likeeverybody else, we had to
scramble and I had to do childtherapy and Mike and Staker were
close, we were multitasking alittle bit.
Some incidents happened, likemy son, who was at the time
(02:44):
eight months old.
Mike and Snake were close, weremultitasking a little bit.
Some incidents happened, likemy son, who was at the time
eight months old, I think.
He tried to climb up the stairsand fell.
You know it was only two steps,but I was in the middle of a
session so I had to lunge andgrab him, make sure he's okay.
So yeah, it was those.
Two major incidents really justmade me think.
Maybe this is just notsomething that I can do right
now while being the most presentand available parent.
Tanner Welsch (03:07):
Yeah, I'm curious the backstory with how you
landed in the recruiting role.
There's many differentalternative career paths.
Can you give us a little bit ofbackstory as either why this
particular one and or how didyou actually land this
particular one?
Wen Hung (03:23):
Sure, yeah.
So I got really lucky.
My friend has been a recruiterfor 30 odd years in logistics
and supply chain and he's alwayssaid you know, you should try
to be really good at it.
And I had no idea what supplychain was.
I also didn't really know whathooting involved.
But we moved to San Diego.
My family and I moved to SanDiego two and a half years ago
(03:44):
and I was in between jobsthinking, well, do I go back to
OT or do I pursue something else?
And so my friend said, well,you're not doing anything right
now, might as well try it out.
There's no commitment, it's a100% commission-based position.
So I did.
I didn't even submit my resume.
So I got really lucky.
That way he worked with anagency.
Tanner Welsch (04:19):
The owner was really open to give me a chance.
So, yeah, that's where we gotstarted.
My friend mentored me, taughtme everything.
The whole process taught meabout logistic.
There was also a lot ofself-teaching on my part, but
yeah, that's how I got you know,other than the opportunity was
right in front of you.
Was there something that wasreally interesting about it or
that?
Okay, yeah, this seems like itwould be a good fit for me, kind
of thing.
Wen Hung (04:31):
Well, it was still helping people in a way.
So I like that because, again,most healthcare professionals we
are by nature, we're just, welike to help people out, we like
to problem solve.
So I like the fact that I wouldbe helping people find better
positions, better salaries maybe, and I'm also helping companies
find ideal candidates to jointheir team.
(04:53):
And then I also loved that Ican work home.
I can set my own hours.
That was a huge draw for me.
Tanner Welsch (05:00):
For sure.
Was there any additionaltraining or coursework that you
had to go through to be able todo your job or qualify for the
position?
Wen Hung (05:10):
Not necessarily.
I took, I think, one or twoLinkedIn courses just, but it,
you know it wouldn't haveaffected my job performance
either way.
I just took it just just to getsome background in recruiting
and diversity and inclusion justto get some background in
recruiting and diversity andinclusion.
Most of the time that I justread articles on my own.
I followed some recruiters onYouTube, on Instagram, you know,
(05:32):
just to see what their processis.
I had to learn about duality insearching, so there were a
couple of technical things thatI definitely had to YouTube and
learn on my own and listen.
Thank goodness for technologyand social media right, because
where where we would be?
So yeah, so it was a lot ofself-teaching and deep diving
into Google.
Tanner Welsch (05:49):
Was that, both before applying to the role and
getting accepted and also duringactually being employed, like
learning and refining yourskills further too?
Wen Hung (05:58):
It was after I accepted the recruiting role and
I just start deep diving intowhat do I need to learn?
The technical stuff and alsothe processes, because I think
every recruiter has a slightlydifferent process, so I just had
to come up with my own style.
So that was interesting.
Tanner Welsch (06:15):
I love that.
Yeah.
What are some personalstruggles, or maybe one that
stands out to you, going throughthis transition, finding this
alternative career that you werein now, and how did you
overcome that?
Wen Hung (06:29):
Well, it was definitely going into a whole
new sector.
Like I said, I didn't know whatlogistics and supply chain was,
so I had to read up on it.
There's a lot of educationalmaterial out there that various
companies provide.
That was, I think, the most,and it's still a challenging
part for me.
Learning how to speak corporateis also different, because at
(06:50):
Health Care we're sostraightforward, right when
we're just, this is yourdiagnosis, this is the treatment
plan.
We just get right to the point.
And in corporate, you know, Ihad to learn all that corporate
lingo, so that was, that wasalso a learning curve for me.
Tanner Welsch (07:05):
What would you say was at risk if you didn't
pursue this alternative careerand you didn't take this
opportunity?
Wen Hung (07:10):
I would say probably my mental health and also being
available to my kids.
Yeah, I was definitely noticingthat I wasn't as patient with
them when I was working inhealthcare full time, so that
was definitely a change, justbeing able to be with them and
setting my own hours.
So I would do a chunk of myrecruiting work at 9 pm, after I
put them to bed, you know, andall the chores are done.
(07:31):
That's when I would starthunkering down and doing my
sourcing and schedule sendingemails.
So, yeah, I think the mentalhealth aspect of it and you know
mental health but I also thinkthat as a happiness and being
present, I think that would havebeen a huge part that I
sacrificed had I continued to goto be in healthcare full time.
Tanner Welsch (07:51):
Absolutely.
Was there other alternativecareers that you were looking
into and or applying to?
Did you like field test acouple other places before you
actually landed this recruitingrole?
Or was it just you were solelyfocused on this recruiting role
and that's what you stuck to andthat's how you got where you're
at?
Wen Hung (08:09):
No, actually I did teletherapy for a little bit,
just, you know, agency basedwith a school that I never
worked with.
That was a little challengingbecause I didn't have any
connections with the student orthe school, so it was very
impersonal and I did not enjoythat.
So I did that for about eightmonths.
And then I did a contractpatient education role for a
(08:30):
medical device company where Iwould go and teach patients how
to wear the garment.
It was almost doing anevaluation as OTs and PTs.
It's just a one stop and thenyou never see them again, you
never know how they progress.
That again was not verysatisfying for me.
I did a course on UX UI anddecided that tech was not for me
(08:50):
.
So yeah, so I explored a littlebit of this, a little bit of
that, and then that's whenprotruding fell into my lap and
it just took off.
Tanner Welsch (08:59):
Nice, the courses that you're referencing.
Were they all on LinkedIn orwhere would somebody find some
of these courses that you'retalking about?
Wen Hung (09:07):
Coursera has a lot of really useful courses and it's
just introduction to whatever itcould be UX, UI, account
managing, data analysis.
I definitely recommend Udemyhas a lot of intro courses as
well for people who are thinkingabout looking at other options
in career.
Tanner Welsch (09:25):
For sure.
What were maybe some of thefirst signs of traction with
this new recruiting role?
That, oh man, this actually canwork.
I see myself doing thislong-term and everything was
coming together for you.
Wen Hung (09:37):
I think it was the speed that I made my first
placement.
So in recruiting they alwayssay that you build up a network
first, so don't expect aplacement until your third or
fourth month.
And I made my first placementwithin a month.
I found my first candidate intwo weeks and then, you know,
started the interview processand salary negotiation.
(09:59):
Well, actually I did my firsttwo placements within a month of
starting the position.
So I was like, well, maybe I'mtalented at this.
So I think the immediateprogress definitely was
encouraging.
And then it just went fromthere.
I just had really good resultsthat first year.
Tanner Welsch (10:19):
What would you say was the difference between,
or maybe what have you learnedfrom being outside of this
particular recruiting role toactually being in it?
Now you know what are somethings that you can say about it
that you know for sure frombeing in it, experiencing it and
working in it that you didn'tknow before.
That would maybe be good tohave known before.
(10:40):
Or if there's somebody elsethat's thinking about going in
the recruiting role, that theydon't know what it's like
because they haven't worked inthat role.
But what would you share withthem?
That's, man.
I wish I would have known thisbefore.
Wen Hung (10:51):
I think in healthcare we are always so on demand so we
don't really see the absencewell, of the job market.
That's what I'm learning rightnow.
A lot of companies had a hardtime last year.
2023 was tough for everybodytech, furniture, logistics
especially so I'm seeing nowthat when the market isn't good
(11:12):
and there are layoffs, thenrecruiters don't really have
anything to do, right, Nobody'shiring.
I'm having candidates come tome and say, well, I just got
laid off, Can you find mesomething?
And it's a tough conversation Ihave with them and that the job
market is just not looking verypositive these days.
That's a hard lesson for me andit's a big change from coming
(11:33):
from healthcare when we'realways just sought after there's
always job in healthcare.
Tanner Welsch (11:38):
So with that, does your actual work have ebbs
and flows where there's some,you know, weeks or months maybe
that there is no placement thatyou're able to make, just
because of how the economy isand things, and so you maybe
have to budget differently forhaving some months that you
don't get as much income orcompensation because of how the
industry or economy is.
Wen Hung (11:58):
For sure.
Yep In 2022, the job market forlogistics and supply chain it
was booming.
So there were weeks when I wasdoing 40 hours and I made maybe
three placements a month.
And then we come to 2023 and Imaybe did one placement every
two months.
It was just slower.
Nobody was hiring.
(12:18):
People are getting laid off.
So, yeah, you definitely haveto expect it and budget
accordingly.
It's like we're to be like asteady paycheck.
Tanner Welsch (12:28):
With that.
Since we're kind of on thetopic, do you do anything else
on the side?
Do you have any other jobs, oris there any passive income
that's set up or properties orrental properties or something
that keeps you afloat wheneveryou know you're not having as
many commissions or paycheckcoming in?
Wen Hung (12:44):
Yeah, I have two rental properties, one in New
York City, one in San Diego,although ironically I just put
both on the market.
Well, last week.
If anybody wants to buy a condoin New York City, let me know.
So I did have those two rentalproperties and I am actually
flipping it to.
Now I'm buying properties inGeorgia.
(13:04):
Just you know, I looked at theoverhead taxes.
So, yes, I definitely rely onrental income.
I love property, I love realestate.
In a different life I wouldhave been a real estate broker.
So I definitely love havingthat passive rental income, for
sure.
Tanner Welsch (13:18):
I wasn't intending to get on this topic
but since we're on it, I'minterested myself in rental
properties.
I don't have any experience init, I haven't taken the plunge,
but is there a resource or howwould you recommend getting
started and learning and growingwithin that particular income
stream?
Wen Hung (13:36):
There is a podcast that's very interesting.
It's all about real estate andit covers passive income and
what states to buy.
I just listened to an episodewhere they say that big college
football states are very goodfor rental properties.
Let's say Michigan.
There's Alabama, so there'sthat, and then I just always
(13:56):
tune up on real estate.
Landlord-tenant laws are veryimportant.
Like in California, it's verytenant-friendly.
So as a landlord, it's veryhard to be a landlord here, so
that's why I'm selling my SanDiego property.
But yeah, I think it's just alot of just reading and
listening to podcasts and I'llsend you the one that I'm
listening to Tanner.
It's very interesting.
(14:17):
It goes over a lot of e-lockand should you buy a rental
property?
Should you pay for it by cashor things like that.
Definitely interesting topic.
Yeah, Wonderful.
Tanner Welsch (14:27):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting the link
there and we'll include that inthe show notes too.
What are maybe some practicalnot obvious skills that make you
a great fit for the work you donow?
Wen Hung (14:40):
So I've always been told early on by candidates and
clients.
They always say, wow, youlisted a lot more than other
recruiters.
And I do find that because Ihave now worked with other
recruiters.
Either we're called jointly orwe're working on the same team
and they talk a lot, because Ifeel like recruiters are kind of
like sales we're selling acandidate a job and we're
(15:01):
selling companies our candidatesso they tend to talk more and
they listen.
And my calls are 80% consistsof me listening, 20% consists of
me telling the candidate thisis what the company is looking
for and this is why I thinkyou'd be good at this position
or you'd be good to sit for thisteam.
I think listening is one of mysuperpowers and that definitely
(15:24):
comes from being in thehealthcare world for 20
something years, where we'rejust really, really listening,
not just verbal but alsononverbal.
Right the pauses.
If you're in person, you'relooking at posture, facial
expressions.
That's what we're good at.
But, yeah, listening is reallyimportant.
Tanner Welsch (15:41):
For sure.
Let's say somebody wants toresearch some job opportunities
that are related to recruiting,where would they go to look for,
like, a list of potentialopenings or jobs that are in
their recruiting realm?
Is there a certain platformthat they're on or certain
keywords that they should beusing to try to find these
opportunities?
Wen Hung (16:00):
That's a great question.
A lot of people have asked methat I like LinkedIn because
there's a lot of jobs posted onLinkedIn and LinkedIn is a
social media platform at thispoint.
So I always tell people toconnect with as many recruiters
as possible, as many recruitingfirms as possible, because you
never know if somebody will giveyou an opportunity with no
(16:20):
experience.
So LinkedIn is a big one andactually I just did a search
yesterday because my friendasked me, and there's a few
entry-level recruiting positionsposted right now for various
it's usually 1099commission-based positions, so
you have to be ready for that.
That is only commission-based.
You're not going to get anyhourly salary or benefits, so
you have to be ready for that.
(16:41):
Another website is Reload and itgives you a taste of recruiting
, but it's almost.
They'll pay you just to refer acandidate.
So that's always an interestingstarting point.
There's no investment in it.
You sign up for it and thenyou'll see a list of jobs that
are open and then there's anicon to refer a candidate to
apply for the job yourself, andthen it gives you the monetary
(17:04):
value of referring a candidate.
So I think that's aninteresting website if you just
want to dabble a little bit inrecruiting and see if you have a
knack for it.
Tanner Welsch (17:12):
For sure I love that source.
Thanks for sharing that.
What do you love most aboutyour new reality as a recruiter?
Wen Hung (17:19):
The flexibility hands down Working from home whatever
hours I want to.
Like I said, I do a lot of mywork at night that allows me to
pick up my kids, drop off mykids, take them to all their
after school activities and bethe flexibility Love that.
Tanner Welsch (17:34):
What would you say comparing, maybe income-wise
or salary-wise, on average,what a recruiter makes to what
you were making in the rehabfield?
Tell us what people can expectin those different income
streams.
Wen Hung (17:48):
I'm going to compare this to healthcare work in
contract as a 1099, because,again, benefits are just a whole
different income that we cancompare it to.
So my husband and I actuallysat down and calculated and I
may shoot it three times moreper hour doing recruiting than
doing home care right now in OTand we're taking the California
(18:12):
rate, which is about anywherefrom I'm going to say 45 to 60
an hour per visit.
So we actually sat down becauseI was, or should I go back into
OT?
You know, I'm still keeping mylicense active, I'm still doing
the CEUs.
He's a business owner, so he'svery good with these numbers.
Still doing the CEUs.
He's a business owner, so he'svery good with these numbers.
So he sat down and he's likeokay, let's take your income
based from last year, which wasa slow year for recruiting, and
(18:35):
he said give me the best casescenario for home care in San
Diego.
So he did and he said yep,you're going to have to work for
every one hour that you do inrecruiting.
You're going to have to workfor every one hour that you do
recruiting, you're going to haveto do three home care visits,
including driving right,including lifting, transferring,
reading and investing all thoseequipment right.
There are bands and all that.
Tanner Welsch (18:55):
Who do you feel would be a good fit to be a
recruiter?
Maybe personality type or dailytasks that you have to do?
If you're going to hiresomebody to work under you in
this role, what would you belooking for?
Who would be a good match?
Wen Hung (19:09):
Somebody who is really organized, analytical even, who
can handle rejection, becauseyou will get rejected a lot as a
recruiter and you can't take itpersonally.
And I say organization becauseyou're going to have to remember
which client needs, whatposition sells and what
candidate has what backgroundstory and talent and stuff like
(19:29):
that.
I don't have the best memory.
I call it mom brain and so I'mconstantly taking those.
I have pages and pages of Worddocuments on my laptop just to
keep everything organized.
So I think somebody who'sdefinitely those are the main
traits I think that would makeyou good at this job.
Tanner Welsch (19:47):
I'm imagining myself in a recruiting role and
I see myself having a mentalstruggle with if I put quite a
bit of effort and time intosomebody but then nothing
actually comes of it.
Was that time wasted?
Wen Hung (20:11):
You know, and if that keeps happening over and over
and over again, it seemsdiscouraging.
Can you talk to us a little,maybe a little bit about that or
how you manage?
That Took me about, I'm goingto say, eight months.
It was for a senior accountingrole and the company just had
very specific demand.
I won't say I'm on the verge ofquitting.
Even my boss said maybe youshould step away from this and I
(20:32):
was like no, because that'sjust my personality, I'm just.
You know, the more challengingit is, the more I'm going to go
at it.
But yeah, even he offered meyou should step away.
You know, maybe you're wastingyour time and I said no, no, no,
I'm going to find somebody forthis position.
I know I can do it.
And then we did at the end, butit took a solid eight months.
However, within those eightmonths, I am working on 10 other
places.
(20:53):
So that's the beauty ofrecruiting too.
You're not just working on oneproject, I'm going to say
replacement You're.
You might be working on 10different things.
That's part of the job really,and things that's part of the
job really, and some go quick.
I've done places.
In two weeks I found anotheraccountant position, you know,
within the same day I found theperson and then it was just the
interview process, salarynegotiation.
That took two weeks, but withina day, you know, the first
(21:15):
interview, the guy was like youknow, she's the one for us and
that was it.
And some just take for a runner, yeah.
Tanner Welsch (21:21):
Do you get to choose these positions that need
filling, or are they just givento you and then you're expected
to find somebody?
Wen Hung (21:28):
I can because it's a contract position.
So I work for an agency andalso I'm an external recruiter,
which means that I don't workfor a specific company.
I work with an agency, right?
Contract therapist you can pickwhat patient you want to see,
for how long you know.
Let's say I want to work onthis position.
(21:49):
I'll tell the agency owner, canI take a crack at this?
And he'll usually say yes, he'sreally good about giving us
options.
And then let's say I've beenworking on this position for six
months and I'm just having noluck at it.
I'll ask my team does anyonewant to take over?
I'm just not having any luckwith this position?
And usually somebody will say,yeah, sure, I'll take over.
So there's definitely a lot offlexibility with this agency
(22:11):
that I'm working with.
Tanner Welsch (22:12):
Are you employed by the agency or you just have
the contract between you and theagency?
Wen Hung (22:18):
It's a contract.
A lot of us have side gigs.
I think one of the peopleworking in the agency has their
dog toy business or something.
So a lot of us have differentside gigs and then we do this as
well.
Tanner Welsch (22:31):
Okay, I'm curious about the contract.
I would have no idea where tostart when trying to set up a
contract in this particular job.
How did you manage that and howdid you end up setting up the
contract?
Or what resources did you use?
How did all that come together?
Wen Hung (22:46):
Oh, the owner gave me the contract to sign.
So he's been doing recruitingfor 35 years as well, so he
obviously knows what to write inthe contract and whatnot.
I think there's one sectionwhere it was a non-compete
section.
That was the only thing thatstood out to me.
Everything was pretty standard.
Standard contract that you signwith any healthcare agency if
you decide to work contract withthem.
Tanner Welsch (23:06):
Since we're on the topic, something else that I
keep an eye out on when signingcontracts or working for a
company and signing all thedocuments, is intellectual
property clauses, which oftenstate that whatever you own or
you do create on your own orwhatever, that the company
you're choosing to work for willactually acquire that and own
(23:28):
it.
I've seen some clauses likethat that are just I can't sign
this because I have rehab rebelsor I have something on the side
or I have a business, and howit's worded is really sketchy.
So just a little heads up there.
What is obvious to you now thatyou struggled to see in the
past, in the moment when youwere working in the rehab
traditional rehab space.
Wen Hung (23:49):
You know, I question why I didn't walk away sooner.
My kids are five and six now,so if I had walked away sooner,
maybe I would have been able tospend more time with them.
I think when you're inhealthcare, especially when
you're in a school setting or ahospital setting, that
commitment, that loyalty that wehave to our patient and our
team is so strong.
That was definitely a struggle.
(24:09):
I've been wanting to leave myjob my previous job for a while
and it was that loyalty thatkept me going.
Tanner Welsch (24:16):
Do you feel that this recruiting role is actually
something that you'd be able todo, or anybody you know
generally would be able to do ontheir own and support
themselves without any sort ofother sources of income, even
though there's ebbs and flows inthe work?
Wen Hung (24:34):
income, even though there's ebbs and flows in the
work.
I've been talking to this withpeople who reach out to me about
wanting to transition fromhealthcare to recruiting and I
always firstly explain thedifference between internal
recruiting and externalrecruiting.
Also, for 1099 commission-basedphysician versus a W-2.
Tanner Welsch (24:47):
Can you sum up those things for us?
Wen Hung (24:50):
Sure, an internal recruiter is.
Mostly you're hired by acompany.
So let's say, prohealthcarehires you as their internal
recruiter.
You only work for them, so youhave to do whatever assignments
they ask you, whateverplacements they ask you to do.
If they ask you to find 10 PTsin Michigan, you have to
complete that assignment.
There's really no picking andchoosing.
But with that comes benefits.
(25:11):
If you're full-time, usuallyit's 40 hours or so and then
there's usually a base salary.
There's sometimes a bonus andmaybe even a commission,
depending on the company.
But it's definitely not.
It's a much smaller bonus andcommission.
You can have a base salary, youcan have a smaller commission
(25:33):
or you can be like me, wherewe're 100% commission-based.
The commission is larger but Idon't get benefits or an hourly
base salary.
But as an external recruiterworking for an agency, you work
for many different companies.
You can work for 20 differenthospitals, helping them staff,
various locations and variouspositions.
So there's definitely morethings to work on.
(25:54):
Keeps it more exciting, for meat least.
And W-2 and 1099, I think a lotof health professionals know
this because everybody has aside gig at some point.
Right, everybody had a 1099side gig at some point.
So again 1099 and you don't gettaxes taken out of your
paycheck.
You're responsible for it atthe end of the year.
Most of us pay an estimatedquarterly tax to help us budget.
(26:16):
Yeah, and W-2 is just astraight up.
You get social security takenout, you normally get benefits
and you are in a salariedposition.
So if you call out sick you'restill getting paid.
You normally have standard PTOs, sick days and whatnot.
I think that summarizes it.
Jump in Tanner if I missanything.
Tanner Welsch (26:36):
It sounds great.
That was perfect.
I really enjoy the differentclarifications with the
subgroups and then the taxclassifications there as well.
Follow-up question Do you feelthat the external recruiter solo
commission base what you're innow is the most lucrative
position to be in out of theones that you listed?
Wen Hung (26:56):
I think so.
The commission is just so muchhigher.
It could be double or triplewhat you meet versus being on a
W-2, let's say recruiter orsomebody who gets a base salary
the base salary if you go toLinkedIn, the base salary is
usually about $20 an hour or so,maybe $25.
But then the commission is justsignificantly lower, and I'm
(27:17):
talking about commission perplacement, right?
So yeah, I think it'sdefinitely the most lucrative
100% commission-based recruiter.
Tanner Welsch (27:25):
For sure.
What did you learn, or what aresome things that you learned in
the rehab space that aretransferable and that you apply
to this new role as a recruiternow?
Wen Hung (27:36):
Well, the listening, as I mentioned before, is
definitely important.
We have a lot of empathy, so Ido listen very close to
somebody's tone of voice, likeif they're in a very toxic work
environment.
I do try to work harder forthem.
And the ironic thing is andmaybe I shouldn't say this, but
most recruiters tend to cater tothe clients more to the
(27:57):
companies looking for candidates, because they issue us the
paycheck.
I, on the other hand, Isympathize more with the
candidate, so I tend to workmore from what do the candidates
need?
Let me see where I can placethem versus you know, looking at
these big companies and going,okay, well, what can I put you
know at your team and Idefinitely got that from the
healthcare I'm going through iton a person-based level versus
(28:20):
an organization.
Tanner Welsch (28:22):
For sure.
You made me think that focusingon the individuals that are
looking for employment and toget placed, focusing on them
first, makes sense to reallyfinding a good fit for them,
which I would assume naturallywould be a really good fit for
the employer as well.
It's more of a mutual positionand on top of that it sounds
like it would be a greatopportunity, a natural marketing
(28:45):
thing that would evolve, whichis hey, Wynne got me placed at
this great position.
She listened to me.
I really like my job.
If you're looking to get placedsomewhere else, go check her
out.
Like it seems like it would bea really good customer
relationship and marketing onits own.
So does that happen?
Or is there any marketing orhow to get your clients?
Is it, you know, word of mouthor is it solely through the
(29:07):
agency?
Like, how is all that?
Wen Hung (29:08):
So getting our clients and by clients we mean the
companies who hire us that Ileave to the agency Because,
again, I'm not from thelogistics background, so I don't
have any connections and I wishI did, because then I would be
able to go out and get moreclients and companies to sign on
with us, so that I leave to theowners of the agency and they
do a great job doing it.
(29:29):
The candidates, the people whoare looking for jobs they reach
out to me through word of mouth,through LinkedIn posts or just
through referrals.
You know, the challenge withthat is sometimes I just don't
have any openings for them.
Tanner Welsch (29:49):
Makes sense out.
You know, maybe they'reinterested in doing some sort of
recruiting or anything from theepisode today that you feel
should be emphasized, or maybethere's something that you
haven't been able to express ortalk about yet.
Wen Hung (30:02):
I say just overcome that fear of the unknown, having
to learn something new, andjust go for it.
And I tell a lot of people thishealthcare will be there.
There will always be a demandfor OTPT speech nurses, so don't
fear that if you step out ofhealth care that you can never
go back into it, because you can.
I mean, I still get recruitedby headhunters, you know, from
(30:24):
agencies all the time right.
So we know that the job marketis there.
So I think this year is what'sstopping a lot of people.
I also think, on the morecommon sense side, budget for
this transition.
If you decide to leave yourhealthcare position and then
focus on transitioning to anon-clinical or non-healthcare
role, you might go without anincome for a couple of months.
(30:47):
So budget for it.
Tanner Welsch (30:49):
Nice caveat.
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to come on the show and
share your story with us andyour pointers All the stuff we
talked about will be in the shownotes, including your LinkedIn
profile, so if anybody wants toreach out to you, maybe have
some follow up questions for you.
And yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you.
Wen Hung (31:07):
Thanks for having me.
It was really fun.
Tanner, Nice chatting with you.
Tanner Welsch (31:11):
Anytime.
Intro (31:12):
Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to rehabrebelsorgor follow us on Instagram at
rehabrebelspodcast.
We'll see you next time.
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