May 9, 2024 • 39 mins
#054 Are you a coach or rehab professional who is tired of trading time for money? Ray Gorman of Engage Movement transitioned from the familiar realm of outpatient clinics to successfully running a cash practice. He started working with clients virtually in 2016 and then blended the virtual and in-person experience in 2017. Today, Ray mentors rehab professionals and coaches to integrate online services into their practices, distinguishing them from other practitioners and strategically advancing their businesses with his performance provider growth model.
In this episode, we will talk about the problems that Ray saw in the in-person model, how that led him to evolve into what his business is today, the emotional landscape of entrepreneurship, the significance of not staying stuck in the status quo but listening to what you want, and how to match what we think is valuable with the unique construction of consumer psychology.
Ray sees an urgent need for modernizing physical therapy, and for the industry to adapt and embrace technology, and hybrid care models. His goal is to challenge industry norms and help physical therapists to leverage their valuable skills fully and not feel the need not leave the profession in order to make more money. If you are ready to reshape your professional trajectory and invest in the future of physical therapy, don't miss this episode of the Rehab Rebels podcast.
For links and show notes, head to: https://rehabrebels.org/054
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career?
Hear inspiring stories fromothers just like you and learn
the best ways to bridge yourcareer gap.
This podcast has you covered.
Now here's your host, doctor ofphysical therapy and podcaster,
Tanner Welsh.
Tanner Welsch (00:21):
Welcome back to another Rehab Rebels episode.
Today's guest is Ray Gorman.
He is the owner of EngageMovement and I'm going to
introduce his little bit of bioabout him and then what he's
doing now, and then we'll bringhim into the show.
Ray has a background in fitnessand rehab going back to
(00:42):
CrossFit in 2008, and thenbecoming a strength coach in
2009, which led him to applyingto PT school, graduating in 2014
.
And he practiced in thetraditional outpatient clinic
for two years, moved to D1Athletes at the University of
Nevada and opened up a cashpractice in a gym setting one
(01:05):
year out of PT school, hestarted working with clients
virtually in 2016 and thenblended the virtual and
in-person experience in 2017.
Today, ray mentors rehabprofessionals and coaches to
integrate online services intotheir practices, distinguishing
them from other practitionersand strategically advancing
(01:26):
their businesses with hisperformance provider growth
model.
Welcome to the show, ray.
Ray Gorman (01:31):
Tanner, thank you for having me.
Tanner Welsch (01:33):
Yeah, it's a pleasure man, I'm really excited
about this pod with you.
Same same.
Ray Gorman (01:38):
I know it's been a long time coming.
It feels like huh.
Tanner Welsch (01:40):
Right, right, yeah.
I don't want to waste any timeand just want to dive right into
really the start of where yourrehab business began, you know,
back in 2015,.
This cash pay practice in thegym setting.
How did all that come to be?
Ray Gorman (01:57):
I think like a lot of PTs out there.
I always felt there was more tobe offered to me from the
profession than just being inthe traditional clinic you know
being in the traditional settingand I knew that I always wanted
to blend my passion for fitness, for strength and conditioning
(02:17):
with what I was doing as aphysical therapist.
And I actually had a great job,I worked at a great clinic when
I started, but it just wasn'tthe patient population that I
really wanted to work with and Iquickly started to see that
there was a demand for peoplewho wanted to work with me
within my gym that I was at.
So the first evolution of mybusiness, of my model, was
(02:40):
really just setting up shop,taking my table in and out of
the gym every day that I wastreating and working on the gym
floor with CrossFit athletes ina CrossFit gym.
Tanner Welsch (02:50):
That's awesome.
So I've never heard of this gympractice practicing out of a
gym.
Basically, can you talk to us alittle bit about how that was
set up, how you utilize thespace and what that environment
business model was like?
Ray Gorman (03:05):
Yeah, I think you know this became popularized
probably around 20, between like2013, 2014,.
Crossfit was hitting its stride.
There were these littleecosystems of people who are
really starting to invest intheir health, and one of the
common things that I see when Italk to people who are thinking
(03:26):
of venturing intoentrepreneurship is they go to
PT school or whatever schoolthey're in chiro school, it
doesn't really matter right, andthey go through this business
portion, this little glimpse ofbusiness course in school, and
they build out this businessplan that is meant to outfit a
(03:47):
traditional model, a traditionalclinic, one that has a
treadmill, one that has an armbike, one that has a stationary
bike, all this traditional PTequipment and what ends up
happening is they start to seethe overhead and the capital
requirement that's needed forthose businesses.
What the gym model reallyprovides is it provides you an
(04:13):
opportunity to go work in afacility that already has
existing infrastructure.
I think that's one of thebiggest advantages for me myself
.
I was able to start working outof there for free.
But it comes with a couple ofthings it comes with existing
infrastructure, it comes withexisting clientele and it comes
(04:33):
with existing marketing, Becausefor me myself, I was a member
of that gym and I was able to goin there and, you know, connect
with the clients in classes andwhatnot, and really the
business just started to builditself.
Tanner Welsch (04:50):
What would you say was the first insight into
traction with this?
You know, when you were goingfrom idea implementation, when
did you realize that, okay, yes,this is sustainable, I can do
this, I'm generating income?
What was going on at that time?
Or was there a moment that youwere okay, yes, this is doable.
Ray Gorman (05:11):
From the in-person side, it was the opposite for me
.
I saw a lot more of theproblems with the model, and
that led me to evolve.
I did the math of you know.
If I'm charging $150 a session,okay, that means I only need to
work 10, 15 hours a week toreplace my salary.
(05:31):
That was great, but the problemthat still existed for me was
my business was still reliant onvolume, my business was still
reliant on in-person sessions,and so I knew that this problem
existed, and as I got busier, Ifelt it more and more and more.
(05:51):
Now I don't want to fast forwardtoo much, but I had started
working with a company whereeverything that we did was
online, and that started to openmy eyes a little bit to
expanding the in-person model tonot keep the operations
separate from you know.
Okay, my in-person businessoperates in a silo over here and
(06:12):
my virtual business operates ina silo over here.
What if I just offered thisblended experience to my clients
?
And that was the clickingfactor that allowed me to start
to transition out of my PRN jobs, transition out of my part-time
job and really start investinga little bit more into the
business.
Tanner Welsch (06:32):
So were you going and doing your own rehab
practice out of the gym whilealso working with this online
company at the same time, orwhat did that look like?
What did your work schedulelook like?
Ray Gorman (06:45):
Yeah, transition strategy is a huge topic for
people and you know you can gofrom this you're never quite
doing enough versus this all inreally risky strategy.
So basically for me, you know Ihad started working 40 hours in
a traditional clinic and then Istarted picking up time in a
(07:07):
nursing home.
I started to work per diem andthen I quickly realized there
goes my half day on Friday,there goes a half of my day on
Saturday and I started to justchase revenue with more time.
That popped the idea in my headwhere, well, if I'm going to be
making $50 an hour in thenursing home, I might as well
(07:28):
figure out a way to make $60 anhour in my own business.
Luckily, I got some good adviceand I ended up charging more
for my initial sessions.
I didn't just settle on a $60 anhour rate and then I had
actually gotten an offer to workin Division I athletics.
That was only part-time, sowhat I was able to do was I was
(07:50):
able to transition out offull-time work with them two
days a week.
I was able to fill up myschedule with the demand from
the PRN work, the SNF, and then,as my business built, I was
able to pull back on the PRNwork and that's really where
things started to ramp up for mewith the online stuff, Because
(08:11):
I had some space to do it and Ihad some opportunities that came
my way.
But we talk a lot abouttransition strategies with
people that we're talking withwith For sure.
Tanner Welsch (08:26):
This is a question that I think we touched
on already, but I want to allowspace for deep diving into it,
or really clarifying and gettinginto the thick of it.
How did your 2015 cash-basedprivate practice business evolve
into what it is today?
Ray Gorman (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question, man Through a
lot of mistakes and a lot offailures, right, that's the part
that a lot of people who wantto be entrepreneurs are a little
hesitant on.
They don't want to feel likethey fail, but it's part of the
necessary journey.
Basically, what had happened isthere was an opportunity for me
to work a little bit more withthe company that I was working
(09:05):
with online.
Through that, I had built someeducation around the model that
I was using and the model thatwe were using online, and
layering that with a lot of theskillset that I had from the
sports medicine world.
I saw this need in thepopulation that I was working
with, which was healthy, activeindividuals CrossFitters,
(09:28):
powerlifters, Olympicweightlifters.
They were a subsect of thepopulation that was already
doing a lot of the right things.
They're already working out,they're already investing in
their nutrition.
They're already thinking thatthey're optimizing their
recovery.
It felt counterintuitive for meto sell them more and more
(09:50):
sessions that were heavilyexercise-based when really they
just needed the managementaspect of the process Fast
forward.
We had then started selling aversion of education to the
fitness realm, and so I hadreally been able to put these
things together I had been ableto figure out the process for me
(10:12):
that I was testing within myclinic of what I knew worked and
that then eventually led to apoint where you know I was no
longer working with that company.
They were going a differentdirection of who they were
trying to help and I was.
I want to get back to my rootsworking with performance clients
, working with performanceproviders.
(10:32):
Why don't I formalize the stuffthat I was doing in my clinic
that made it unique on the rehaband wellness realm, and why
don't I package that into aneducation process?
And why don't I package thatinto an education process and be
able to teach providers notonly a clinical model, but one
that also operates as a businessmodel within their facility,
(10:53):
within their operations?
And that's what's known as theperformance provider growth
model today.
Tanner Welsch (11:00):
Awesome man.
How do you define performanceclient and performance provider?
Ray Gorman (11:05):
Yeah, for us.
Most of our clients are workingwith a subsect of the
population that is investing alittle bit more in their health
than the general American.
We're working with people whothe stakes for them are losing
their performance or losingtheir athleticism, are losing
(11:27):
the benefits that going to thegym provides for them.
Maybe they used to beoverweight and now they've
gotten into CrossFit or they'vegotten into running, and running
is the thing that keeps themhealthy.
You know, maybe they used to beaddicted to a substance and
training is their new copingmechanism, and so if they lose
access to that training capacityand so if they lose access to
(11:49):
that training capacity, what'sactually at risk for those
people?
So the clients that wegenerally work with are those
that are working with healthy,active individuals.
They typically havemusculoskeletal injuries that
are either from overtraining,under recovery or they're coming
(12:09):
back from an injury, maybe asurgery or something like that,
and traditional physical therapydoesn't really do the trick for
them, getting them back to thevolume, getting them back to
their old self.
Tanner Welsch (12:23):
Thanks for the clarification because I've seen
it.
But I got an idea of what hemeans, but I really would like
clarity on what patientpopulation or what group.
So thank you for clarifying.
Ray Gorman (12:33):
Yeah, our model can be scaled all the way back to
the beginning.
You know, fitness consumer it'sjust generally not who we're
working with now on that lowerend of the spectrum there, where
we would start to see thatperson is, you know, maybe they
have made the change of gettinginto healthier habits, getting
(12:53):
into a healthier lifestyle, andthey start to get the exercise
bug, the training bug, where nowthey're not just going to the
gym five days a week but, forwhatever reason, started running
a mile three times a week.
They started to just do toomuch, too fast.
A lot of our system reallyeducates the client around
(13:15):
appropriate volume, appropriaterecovery and appropriate
lifestyle factors that affectthose things as well.
Tanner Welsch (13:21):
For sure, remembering back to a time when
you nearly gave up on this rehabbusiness venture.
What was happening around this?
Can you paint a picture abouthow you were feeling, what was
going on, and then we can leaddown how you resolve that?
Ray Gorman (13:38):
You're always going to get these little monsters
that pop up.
You're always going to getthese little ideas in your head
imposter syndrome, whatever youwant to call it that are going
to have you question who am I tobe doing this?
Who am I to be deserving this?
Wouldn't it just be easier togo back and work with somebody
else?
That stuff doesn't go away.
(14:01):
The further along you go, Ithink you just get a shorter lag
time of how long it lasts andyou often get more confirmation
that you're on the right trackafter you have that little bout
right.
So I think anyone who saysthey've never had doubts along
(14:21):
the way, they've neverquestioned the model, they've
never questioned if they shouldbe doing this, they're probably
lying to themselves in somecapacity.
But the other thing that'shelped me is we focus really on
one thing.
When something isn't working,we iterate around that one thing
and that has, you know, threeyears into this current venture,
(14:44):
that has really allowed us toform the product that we have
today.
That's really allowed us to getvery clear on who we help, the
problems that our clients have,and I know what's at stake for
them, because those things wereat stake for me, right,
everything that people feltabout being bogged down in the
(15:05):
clinic, being burnt out,thinking about leaving the
profession, regretting going toPT school not because you didn't
love what you were doing, butyou didn't actually get to do
the cool stuff that you got todo when you were a tech.
I felt all that stuff you know,and so I go back to those
reminders of our mission is tomake sure that we can keep great
(15:26):
providers in the profession.
Tanner Welsch (15:29):
Throughout this business journey and growing out
your business, what resource,whatever it is, what would you
say has really been either ago-to or, throughout the
majority of this journey therethat you've gained a lot of
value, a lot of insight, a lotof support from?
Ray Gorman (15:46):
I think it's having a growth mindset around what I
will allow my business to become, and what I mean by that is I
think a lot of times peopleenter into something with.
This is what it's going to looklike, this is how it's going to
operate.
This is going to be the size ofthe business.
(16:07):
I'm going to operate soloforever, and I thought that as
well.
What I've allowed myself to dois just go overseeing the
general business, and it was alot of stress and I told myself
(16:38):
I didn't want that anymore.
But the thing that was reallystressful for me in that
capacity was not having theactual control that I needed to
be able to make the decisionsthat I wanted to make.
I needed to be able to make thedecisions that I wanted to make
.
So as I learned that aboutmyself throughout the journey,
as I learned that, okay, you'rein control of this, this is your
destiny, it allowed me to beopen to expanding our team.
(17:02):
It allowed me to be open tobringing people on to help us
grow.
It allowed me to say, hey, whatif we did bring on a marketing
department?
What if we did train somebodyto do sales with us?
What if we did start to getother faces involved in
fulfillment and that's just beena really cool evolution for me
of really something that Ididn't think I wanted initially.
(17:25):
That eventually evolved overtime.
Tanner Welsch (17:28):
Let's take another step further into that,
because I totally can get that.
You got this stress.
You not want to be in thisposition again, but basically it
sounds like you're in somelevel or another in your own
business in a very similarposition.
So what was it that shifted orchanged, or was it not as
stressful?
Ray Gorman (17:47):
There were a lot of things that were outside of my
control in the initial setup,and I don't do well, from a
nervous system perspective, in astate of constant chaos and
that's what it felt like for methan dedicating energy and
(18:09):
resource to something, gettingit 90% of the way there and then
saying, oh yeah, we're notdoing that anymore, and a lot of
that was happening for me.
Now it's something that I'mhighly sensitive to when it's my
job to protect my team.
It's my job to put my team inthe best position possible to
succeed.
It's my job to ask my team whatthey need to succeed.
(18:32):
It's my job to make sure thatI'm not causing problems for
them and I delegate clear enoughthat they don't cause problems
for me, and so, in a lot of ways, I learned a lot of the things
that I didn't want to do.
I learned a lot of the thingsabout who I didn't want to
become, and ultimately, thatshaped me into the leader that
(18:54):
I've become today of.
This is our mission, this isour offer, this is what we do
Simple, easy, clean, effective.
One thing let's nail it andlet's change the profession.
Tanner Welsch (19:07):
Love it.
What is, would you say, obviousto you now that maybe you
struggled with in the past or inthe moment of being in the
traditional PT realm?
Ray Gorman (19:35):
at one point, but no longer do.
Now I think we see a lot ofpeople get stuck in the status
quo because this is how we'vealways done things, that's how
their parents have done it.
Why would you leave your joband go do something for somebody
else?
Isn't that risky?
You just do your time, put yourhead down, stay miserable,
retire.
No, not a thing for me, andsometimes part of our role is
helping people do things thatthey know they need to do but
(19:59):
they're hesitant to do them.
Sometimes it's having themquestion the way that they think
, having them question the waythat they're currently auditing
the process, the way thatthey're viewing it, and that's
really the most effective part,I think, of the coaching that we
can provide is we've got tomake sure that we get some of
these personal things out of theway so that you can actually
(20:20):
show up in your business.
When we can get you to show upas a better person for both
yourself, the business stuffstarts to happen as a byproduct.
I think that's just a reallypowerful thing that I've caught
on to.
Tanner Welsch (20:32):
I love that, which brings another follow-up
question.
I think we've all been insituations where you can easily
look at relationships.
You know whether it's romanticor friends that change, but
we've always been in it.
I think many of us have been insituations where it's okay,
this is no longer serving eitherof us, but we're going through
the motions and, for whateverreason, we're not choosing to
(20:56):
have a mutual break off and goour separate ways and we're just
keep going through the motions.
So I want to use that similarframework towards owning and
operating a business.
So my question for you is howdo you know when it's time to
keep moving forwards with yourbusiness or change, or none of
it's working and you need acompletely new business?
How do you know when to keepversus giving up or changing?
Ray Gorman (21:17):
So I think we first got to outline a couple of
concepts that the staying in asituation that is familiar is
safer than moving into theunknown.
That is true in relationships,that is true in work life, that
is true in business.
But keeps you in your comfortzone.
(21:39):
And who grows in their comfortzone?
Nobody.
Discomfort is something that caneither be a good thing or be a
bad thing.
It's just a sensation before wedo something, because something
can be uncomfortable and goodfor us or something can be
uncomfortable and bad for us.
So if I'm feeling uncomfortableand the decision that I'm
(22:01):
looking to make aligns with myvalues and my beliefs and I say
no to that decision, I end upfeeling regret.
I should have done it.
If I say yes to that decision,I end up trending towards growth
.
Now let's flip that around.
(22:23):
If I feel the sensation ofdiscomfort, the thing that I'm
doing doesn't align with myvalues and beliefs and I do it
just because I feel like Ishould, that takes me to a path
of regret.
But if I say no in thatsituation, that provides me with
personal growth.
So I think what happens is weget so conditioned to discomfort
(22:46):
being a bad thing Instead ofsaying when I do something scary
that's worth it.
I'm supposed to feeluncomfortable because I care.
And you don't go far by makingeasy decisions.
Every decision that people havemade that's been uncomfortable
has been something that haspropelled them in the right
direction.
If it was easy, everyone woulddo it.
Tanner Welsch (23:08):
Yeah, I agree, man, and I think it goes back to
something similar that we weretalking about, which is you know
these challenges that you facegoing down the business or
entrepreneurial path.
You know imposter syndrome oram I doing the right thing?
Or you know analysis, paralysis, and no matter which choice we
make, there's pros and cons toeither one, and I love how you
gave a few examples there ofregret and whatnot.
(23:31):
I want to change to a few morespecific questions related to
business owners.
One is just a general allbusinesses.
The next one is going to beabout more towards the rehab
private practice business owners.
The first one, that's moregeneral, is how do you implement
your schedule to focus on allthe business aspects of your
(23:52):
business and not just theservice part, for example?
Ray Gorman (23:56):
Good question.
I think you've got to figureout what works for you
structurally.
What we generally have ourclients do is, you know, write
down all the things that youneed to do and block them into
admin fulfillment sales and thenstart to arrange them within
your schedule.
So this concept of timeblocking isn't new.
(24:18):
But if you were doing one taskover here and then the phone
rang and you had to go do switchto this task, you probably
wouldn't do the initial tasksuper well if you kept getting
interrupted, right?
So me personally, what I do ismy week is scheduled into Monday
and Fridays.
Are these build the businesstype days?
(24:41):
Tuesday, wednesday, thursday arereally the fulfillment days for
me, where I'm doing a lot ofstuff with and for my clients,
and so my Monday actually startsout with a meeting with my
assistant where we go over whatare the things that we've got in
progress.
Are we just operating a statusquo because things are moving
along?
What are things that are comingdown the pipeline?
What are changes that we'relooking to make?
(25:03):
From that meeting I go intomore of my visionary type work,
so I block out 90 to 120 minutesand that's where I'm thinking
about things that we're workingon the business.
I'm strategically planning whatis the next quarter going to
look like, what are the monthsgoing to look like within that
quarter, so that we can hitthese specific objectives.
(25:25):
I'm writing any of my contentduring that time because it is a
time when I am very focused andthat gets me through my Monday
and then the rest of the day isyou know, I generally meet with
my marketing team of what arethe changes that we're going to
make over this next two-weekperiod, four-week period, so
that you know they can do thethings that they need to do
(25:45):
throughout the week Tuesday,wednesday, thursday, fulfillment
, client stuff, maybe some salescalls, connection calls with
people, and then Fridays arereally used for building some of
the business resources.
So any trainings that we'regoing to put out a lot of the
time, I do those on Fridays.
Any of the courses that we'recreating or revamping or things
(26:07):
that we're working on, thosegenerally go on Fridays.
I'm typically done.
My day is usually done anywherebetween 4 and 6 pm.
I usually start around 10.
That's when I try to start.
I don't do much work at nightAfter I'm done.
I don't really do any work onthe weekends.
That's not my jam man, I'vedone that already 100% man.
Tanner Welsch (26:30):
Something that I love about being your own boss
and the control, like wementioned before, was you get to
make your own schedule and youalso get to see and serve
ideally the clients that youwant to serve, like that patient
population.
Ray Gorman (26:45):
I think that can really help with energy levels
and motivation and day-to-daystuff can really help with
energy levels and motivation andday-to-day stuff Blessing and a
curse right, because there areplenty of people who and myself,
the prior version of myselfincluded who don't know or
didn't know how to putboundaries around my energy and
(27:06):
I made myself too accessible,not thinking that was a big deal
.
I used to have clients textingme seven, eight, nine o'clock at
night and even if you say don'tworry about reading or
responding to this till tomorrow, I still read it.
It still triggers the workresponse in me and what I
(27:26):
noticed is nervous system spikesup, difficulty going to sleep,
difficulty staying asleepbecause now I'm already thinking
about the next day.
It literally kicks your bodyinto that work mode, that fight
or flight mode.
So for anyone out therelistening who is constantly
extending your boundaries, justremember your clients won't get
(27:46):
mad when you create boundaries.
You just believe that they will.
Your clients won't get mad whenyou create boundaries, you just
believe that they will.
And also your boundaries willallow you to show up as the best
version of yourself for thosefollowing days, because you've
got to recover energetically aswell.
Tanner Welsch (28:00):
100% For rehab private practice owners who are
interested in diversifying theirservices or maybe even offering
products.
How would you recommend goingabout this?
Ray Gorman (28:12):
When you say offering products, because that
can be a wide range what do youmean by that?
Tanner Welsch (28:20):
So this is just an example.
This is not something I'm doing.
It's just something I've heardsomebody that's they're
brainstorming things, so addingadditional, maybe health
products like CBD oils or thingslike that that would implement
into the rehab practice and whatthey're offering.
Ray Gorman (28:38):
That productization you know, full transparency
isn't really that physicalproduct, isn't really my realm.
Speaking on it from a generalsense, though, I think that it's
important to layer into howthat would become part of their
experience.
For example, I think it worksreally well in the gym space and
(28:59):
the fitness space, and then Ithink people can take that
example and work it into theirpractice.
If you are a trainer or a gymowner that is doing fitness
consults, you have a client comein, you're selling them
personal training, you'reselling them a membership.
You could also kind of layer on.
Most of our clients who getthese optimal results are also
(29:20):
taking these supplements thatare X, y and Z fish oil,
creatine.
It'd be actual things that youhad to believe in.
Now we have a version of ouroffer that actually includes
that, where you get this allencompassed.
Oh, by the way, it alsoincludes nutrition.
I know that you said you werelooking to do X, y and Z.
Now I can actually present asolution that combos all those
(29:43):
things.
I think what happens withbusinesses and this is with
virtual products or physicalproducts with businesses and
this is with virtual products orphysical products If I have it,
people will buy it.
If I just stock the shelveswith CBD, people are going to
inquire and buy that.
But a lot of times you have toeducate your consumer around how
we use it.
Why we use it.
(30:03):
Why should they buy this onefrom you?
Instead of going on Amazon andbuying it like a commodity, you
maybe want to present it with alittle familiarity.
We see clients all the time sayoh yeah, we have this low
ticket template offer that we'vecreated, but nobody's buying it
.
Yeah, why would they?
We're not presenting it in away that's valuable to them.
Tanner Welsch (30:24):
That leads into a great question that I have,
that came up in the betamastermind group for rehab
private practice owners thatwe're going through right now,
and that is this value.
When you're going to increaseyour prices or you're going to
make this sale, how do youunderstand and or get really the
(30:45):
customer to understand thevalue that you're giving them
and that you're offering them,and that this price is really
worth this?
Ray Gorman (30:52):
I think the biggest problem people have is we assume
what the consumer thinks isvaluable.
So, for example, if you told meI was getting one-on-one
attention and support, I don'tknow that I would find the same
amount of value in that assomebody who had a really bad
(31:12):
experience with physical therapy.
There was seven other clientsand they're being managed.
But if you ask, well, whatwould you be looking for from
your physical therapist or fromthe clinic that you'd actually
be working with, and they tellyou, well, I'd be looking for an
aspect of one-on-one support.
I'd be looking for an aspect ofa little bit more of a
(31:33):
relationship with my PT.
Well, now I know what thatperson finds valuable.
So the biggest thing that wehave changed in our process is,
instead of saying, here's allthe things that make our offer
valuable, we structure languagearound asking that consumer what
they're actually looking forand why those things would be
valuable to them.
(31:53):
When you can tie features andbenefits into an outcome, into a
result that makes thingsvaluable, you get this so that
you can do that.
We do this so that you don'texperience that.
That's really, I think, whatproviders are missing.
Businesses in general aremissing when it comes to talking
(32:13):
about value.
We have these pillars of whatwe know is valuable, but we need
to make sure that we'rematching it appropriately to the
unique construction of thatconsumer psychology.
Tanner Welsch (32:26):
And that even goes into, I mean, I think, all
aspects of businesses, and itreminds me of a little bit of
the story brand book.
You're trying to figure outyour customer, your avatar, and
figure out where are they in thejourney and how you align with
them, making that transformationand figuring out those details,
with the language that they use, what's important to them,
(32:47):
really placing yourself wherethey are and figuring out how
best to communicate what it isyou're offering and how that's
going to solve their problem.
Ray Gorman (32:57):
I'll tell a quick story on one of the biggest
mistakes I ever made in a salescombo.
I was meeting with achiropractor and she was in a
gym just like I was.
I was saying one of the biggestvalue adds for me when we add
our virtual process, what wecall a prescriptive exercise
program alongside the in-personsessions was I no longer had to
(33:18):
work with clients in person foran hour anymore and you won't
have to do that either.
And she was like I love workingin person with my clients for
an hour.
That's exactly what I meanabout making that assumption
right.
I was assuming that because Ihad that same feeling, that she
would have that same feeling,that other providers would have
that same feeling, but that'sjust not true.
(33:40):
So why would I say somethingthat was valuable to me, that's
valuable for maybe 80% of ourother consumers, but is not the
one thing that what we providewould make it valuable for them?
I put myself behind the eightball in that position, and I
think a lot of people do that.
And then they get hit with whatare called value objections,
(34:03):
where the consumer is eh, Idon't know if I'd do it.
Eh, that's expensive, moneyaside, would you do it and
they're like, eh, I don't know,maybe I'll, I could try my other
physical therapist.
Okay, we got a problem there.
Right, we got a big problemthere, for sure.
Tanner Welsch (34:17):
What would you say?
The future of rehab privatepractice looks like.
Ray Gorman (34:21):
Oh man, it's evolving.
I think we are going through areally big evolution right now.
I think we're very early in thedigitalization of the
profession and I think thatthere are things that are
happening that are gettingbetter, but they're still not
enough.
For example, in the insurancerealm we have remote therapeutic
(34:43):
monitoring that's coming up.
However, bang for buck.
I just don't see how evenintegrating that into your
clinic really even makes sense.
It seems not reimbursed highenough.
It seems there's too manycriteria for it to really
trigger where there's meaningfulrevenue coming through.
But I think it's anacknowledgement in the right
(35:04):
direction that providers,especially in the allied health
field, need processes that aremore scalable and allow us to
get paid without a direct tradefor time.
We seem to be the one group ofprofessions that is lagging
behind in any sort of efficiencymetric.
That's making sense for us toreally elevate our earnings.
(35:26):
So that's what I see on thevirtual side, our earnings.
So that's what I see on thevirtual side, what I see on the
employee side.
As far as what physicaltherapists are going to start
looking for, keep in mind myrealm is more the outpatient
orthopedic realm.
I know that this doesn't applyto a lot of other facets, but I
think you have PTs graduating inthis generation that they want
(35:49):
variety.
They grew up with technology.
They don't want to be throwninto a clinic where technology
isn't a thing.
They saw how efficienttechnology can make life and now
we're saying, oh yeah, but wedon't really use technology here
, only to document.
You're not going to keep as abusiness owner.
You're not going to keep youngphysical therapists around for
(36:11):
very long.
They're going to document.
You're not going to keep as abusiness owner.
You're not going to keep youngphysical therapists around for
very long.
They're going to leave.
So what I think needs to happenis the field needs to evolve a
little bit.
It needs to be more open toflexibility.
It needs to be open to moreideas.
You're going to have providersthat come in that aren't going
to want to be put in a box 40hours full time, that come in
that aren't going to want to beput in a box 40 hours full time.
From the consumer end, I justthink care is getting more
(36:34):
accessible, right?
You've got people working withclients all over the world
helping them solve problems thatin-person physical therapy
couldn't help them solve, andthe consumer is also becoming
more educated, they're catchingup with these options that you
know are going to exclude solelyin-person mechanisms.
Tanner Welsch (36:56):
That was something that I really liked
about what you were doing isthis hybrid model and
implementing tech and virtualand being on that verge.
You know, I think that'sexciting.
What is a question you wish youwere asked more?
Ray Gorman (37:22):
Why are you doing this?
You can look at that from amicro perspective.
What is a question you wish youwere asked?
More PT school, there's nowrong intervention there's.
Just why are we doing thisspecific one?
We tell our clients all thetime there's no wrong exercise
that you select.
Every exercise correctssomething.
But I think a lot of times wedo things, we add volume, we add
tasks, we add things to ourplate.
(37:42):
We don't actually know why.
If we ask that question alittle bit more, we'd start to
protect our energy a little bit,We'd start to get more clear on
why we're doing the things thatwe're doing, how we're doing
the things that we're doing, andwe'd be able to put the right
amount of resource into it aswell.
Tanner Welsch (38:00):
So, Ray, why are you doing what you're doing, man
?
Ray Gorman (38:04):
Because I see a big problem in the profession and I
experienced it myself.
Problem in the profession and Iexperienced it myself, and I
see something that is outdatedand I see something that has so
much potential to help peoplebut we are positioned very
poorly in the market.
We're not really known well forwhat we do.
Right, when you tell somebodyyou're a physical therapist,
(38:25):
they say oh so what do you like?
Stretch people?
Tanner Welsch (38:28):
No, no, no, you give them massages.
Ray Gorman (38:30):
Yeah, yeah, oh cool, I got to come see you for a
massage, right?
We're not known for gettingpeople's lives back.
We're not known for protectingpeople from the downside of
losing their fitness.
We're not known for havingsomebody come to us and ending
up further along in theirperformance than when they
(38:51):
started, even if they had aninjury.
And in a lot of cases, we'rejust shooting ourselves in the
foot because we can't control alot of the things that dictate
our profession, likereimbursement, the rules around
seeing clients and what you canbe reimbursed for, and so we do
it, like I said, in clients andwhat you can be reimbursed for.
(39:13):
And so we do it, like I said,man, to make sure that there is
a mechanism for PTs who want touse their $150,000, $200,000
skill set that they invested inand not leave the profession to
make more money.
That's why we do it.
Tanner Welsch (39:25):
I love that, man Ray.
Thank you for coming on theshow, man.
I really appreciate yourinsights and sharing your
experience and your stories.
Yeah, Thank you for having onthe show and I really appreciate
your insights and sharing yourexperience and your stories.
Ray Gorman (39:33):
Yeah, thank you for having me, man.
Tanner Welsch (39:35):
Anytime.
Intro (39:36):
Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to RehabRebelsorgor follow us on Instagram at
Rehab Rebels Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
Are you a rehab professionalready to transition to an
alternative career?
Hear inspiring stories fromothers just like you and learn
the best ways to bridge yourcareer gap.
This podcast has you covered.
Now here's your host, doctor ofphysical therapy and podcaster,
Tanner Welsh.
Tanner Welsch (00:21):
Welcome back to another Rehab Rebels episode.
Today's guest is Ray Gorman.
He is the owner of EngageMovement and I'm going to
introduce his little bit of bioabout him and then what he's
doing now, and then we'll bringhim into the show.
Ray has a background in fitnessand rehab going back to
(00:42):
CrossFit in 2008, and thenbecoming a strength coach in
2009, which led him to applyingto PT school, graduating in 2014
.
And he practiced in thetraditional outpatient clinic
for two years, moved to D1Athletes at the University of
Nevada and opened up a cashpractice in a gym setting one
(01:05):
year out of PT school, hestarted working with clients
virtually in 2016 and thenblended the virtual and
in-person experience in 2017.
Today, ray mentors rehabprofessionals and coaches to
integrate online services intotheir practices, distinguishing
them from other practitionersand strategically advancing
(01:26):
their businesses with hisperformance provider growth
model.
Welcome to the show, ray.
Ray Gorman (01:31):
Tanner, thank you for having me.
Tanner Welsch (01:33):
Yeah, it's a pleasure man, I'm really excited
about this pod with you.
Same same.
Ray Gorman (01:38):
I know it's been a long time coming.
It feels like huh.
Tanner Welsch (01:40):
Right, right, yeah.
I don't want to waste any timeand just want to dive right into
really the start of where yourrehab business began, you know,
back in 2015,.
This cash pay practice in thegym setting.
How did all that come to be?
Ray Gorman (01:57):
I think like a lot of PTs out there.
I always felt there was more tobe offered to me from the
profession than just being inthe traditional clinic you know
being in the traditional settingand I knew that I always wanted
to blend my passion for fitness, for strength and conditioning
(02:17):
with what I was doing as aphysical therapist.
And I actually had a great job,I worked at a great clinic when
I started, but it just wasn'tthe patient population that I
really wanted to work with and Iquickly started to see that
there was a demand for peoplewho wanted to work with me
within my gym that I was at.
So the first evolution of mybusiness, of my model, was
(02:40):
really just setting up shop,taking my table in and out of
the gym every day that I wastreating and working on the gym
floor with CrossFit athletes ina CrossFit gym.
Tanner Welsch (02:50):
That's awesome.
So I've never heard of this gympractice practicing out of a
gym.
Basically, can you talk to us alittle bit about how that was
set up, how you utilize thespace and what that environment
business model was like?
Ray Gorman (03:05):
Yeah, I think you know this became popularized
probably around 20, between like2013, 2014,.
Crossfit was hitting its stride.
There were these littleecosystems of people who are
really starting to invest intheir health, and one of the
common things that I see when Italk to people who are thinking
(03:26):
of venturing intoentrepreneurship is they go to
PT school or whatever schoolthey're in chiro school, it
doesn't really matter right, andthey go through this business
portion, this little glimpse ofbusiness course in school, and
they build out this businessplan that is meant to outfit a
(03:47):
traditional model, a traditionalclinic, one that has a
treadmill, one that has an armbike, one that has a stationary
bike, all this traditional PTequipment and what ends up
happening is they start to seethe overhead and the capital
requirement that's needed forthose businesses.
What the gym model reallyprovides is it provides you an
(04:13):
opportunity to go work in afacility that already has
existing infrastructure.
I think that's one of thebiggest advantages for me myself
.
I was able to start working outof there for free.
But it comes with a couple ofthings it comes with existing
infrastructure, it comes withexisting clientele and it comes
(04:33):
with existing marketing, Becausefor me myself, I was a member
of that gym and I was able to goin there and, you know, connect
with the clients in classes andwhatnot, and really the
business just started to builditself.
Tanner Welsch (04:50):
What would you say was the first insight into
traction with this?
You know, when you were goingfrom idea implementation, when
did you realize that, okay, yes,this is sustainable, I can do
this, I'm generating income?
What was going on at that time?
Or was there a moment that youwere okay, yes, this is doable.
Ray Gorman (05:11):
From the in-person side, it was the opposite for me
.
I saw a lot more of theproblems with the model, and
that led me to evolve.
I did the math of you know.
If I'm charging $150 a session,okay, that means I only need to
work 10, 15 hours a week toreplace my salary.
(05:31):
That was great, but the problemthat still existed for me was
my business was still reliant onvolume, my business was still
reliant on in-person sessions,and so I knew that this problem
existed, and as I got busier, Ifelt it more and more and more.
(05:51):
Now I don't want to fast forwardtoo much, but I had started
working with a company whereeverything that we did was
online, and that started to openmy eyes a little bit to
expanding the in-person model tonot keep the operations
separate from you know.
Okay, my in-person businessoperates in a silo over here and
(06:12):
my virtual business operates ina silo over here.
What if I just offered thisblended experience to my clients
?
And that was the clickingfactor that allowed me to start
to transition out of my PRN jobs, transition out of my part-time
job and really start investinga little bit more into the
business.
Tanner Welsch (06:32):
So were you going and doing your own rehab
practice out of the gym whilealso working with this online
company at the same time, orwhat did that look like?
What did your work schedulelook like?
Ray Gorman (06:45):
Yeah, transition strategy is a huge topic for
people and you know you can gofrom this you're never quite
doing enough versus this all inreally risky strategy.
So basically for me, you know Ihad started working 40 hours in
a traditional clinic and then Istarted picking up time in a
(07:07):
nursing home.
I started to work per diem andthen I quickly realized there
goes my half day on Friday,there goes a half of my day on
Saturday and I started to justchase revenue with more time.
That popped the idea in my headwhere, well, if I'm going to be
making $50 an hour in thenursing home, I might as well
(07:28):
figure out a way to make $60 anhour in my own business.
Luckily, I got some good adviceand I ended up charging more
for my initial sessions.
I didn't just settle on a $60 anhour rate and then I had
actually gotten an offer to workin Division I athletics.
That was only part-time, sowhat I was able to do was I was
(07:50):
able to transition out offull-time work with them two
days a week.
I was able to fill up myschedule with the demand from
the PRN work, the SNF, and then,as my business built, I was
able to pull back on the PRNwork and that's really where
things started to ramp up for mewith the online stuff, Because
(08:11):
I had some space to do it and Ihad some opportunities that came
my way.
But we talk a lot abouttransition strategies with
people that we're talking withwith For sure.
Tanner Welsch (08:26):
This is a question that I think we touched
on already, but I want to allowspace for deep diving into it,
or really clarifying and gettinginto the thick of it.
How did your 2015 cash-basedprivate practice business evolve
into what it is today?
Ray Gorman (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question, man Through a
lot of mistakes and a lot offailures, right, that's the part
that a lot of people who wantto be entrepreneurs are a little
hesitant on.
They don't want to feel likethey fail, but it's part of the
necessary journey.
Basically, what had happened isthere was an opportunity for me
to work a little bit more withthe company that I was working
(09:05):
with online.
Through that, I had built someeducation around the model that
I was using and the model thatwe were using online, and
layering that with a lot of theskillset that I had from the
sports medicine world.
I saw this need in thepopulation that I was working
with, which was healthy, activeindividuals CrossFitters,
(09:28):
powerlifters, Olympicweightlifters.
They were a subsect of thepopulation that was already
doing a lot of the right things.
They're already working out,they're already investing in
their nutrition.
They're already thinking thatthey're optimizing their
recovery.
It felt counterintuitive for meto sell them more and more
(09:50):
sessions that were heavilyexercise-based when really they
just needed the managementaspect of the process Fast
forward.
We had then started selling aversion of education to the
fitness realm, and so I hadreally been able to put these
things together I had been ableto figure out the process for me
(10:12):
that I was testing within myclinic of what I knew worked and
that then eventually led to apoint where you know I was no
longer working with that company.
They were going a differentdirection of who they were
trying to help and I was.
I want to get back to my rootsworking with performance clients
, working with performanceproviders.
(10:32):
Why don't I formalize the stuffthat I was doing in my clinic
that made it unique on the rehaband wellness realm, and why
don't I package that into aneducation process?
And why don't I package thatinto an education process and be
able to teach providers notonly a clinical model, but one
that also operates as a businessmodel within their facility,
(10:53):
within their operations?
And that's what's known as theperformance provider growth
model today.
Tanner Welsch (11:00):
Awesome man.
How do you define performanceclient and performance provider?
Ray Gorman (11:05):
Yeah, for us.
Most of our clients are workingwith a subsect of the
population that is investing alittle bit more in their health
than the general American.
We're working with people whothe stakes for them are losing
their performance or losingtheir athleticism, are losing
(11:27):
the benefits that going to thegym provides for them.
Maybe they used to beoverweight and now they've
gotten into CrossFit or they'vegotten into running, and running
is the thing that keeps themhealthy.
You know, maybe they used to beaddicted to a substance and
training is their new copingmechanism, and so if they lose
access to that training capacityand so if they lose access to
(11:49):
that training capacity, what'sactually at risk for those
people?
So the clients that wegenerally work with are those
that are working with healthy,active individuals.
They typically havemusculoskeletal injuries that
are either from overtraining,under recovery or they're coming
(12:09):
back from an injury, maybe asurgery or something like that,
and traditional physical therapydoesn't really do the trick for
them, getting them back to thevolume, getting them back to
their old self.
Tanner Welsch (12:23):
Thanks for the clarification because I've seen
it.
But I got an idea of what hemeans, but I really would like
clarity on what patientpopulation or what group.
So thank you for clarifying.
Ray Gorman (12:33):
Yeah, our model can be scaled all the way back to
the beginning.
You know, fitness consumer it'sjust generally not who we're
working with now on that lowerend of the spectrum there, where
we would start to see thatperson is, you know, maybe they
have made the change of gettinginto healthier habits, getting
(12:53):
into a healthier lifestyle, andthey start to get the exercise
bug, the training bug, where nowthey're not just going to the
gym five days a week but, forwhatever reason, started running
a mile three times a week.
They started to just do toomuch, too fast.
A lot of our system reallyeducates the client around
(13:15):
appropriate volume, appropriaterecovery and appropriate
lifestyle factors that affectthose things as well.
Tanner Welsch (13:21):
For sure, remembering back to a time when
you nearly gave up on this rehabbusiness venture.
What was happening around this?
Can you paint a picture abouthow you were feeling, what was
going on, and then we can leaddown how you resolve that?
Ray Gorman (13:38):
You're always going to get these little monsters
that pop up.
You're always going to getthese little ideas in your head
imposter syndrome, whatever youwant to call it that are going
to have you question who am I tobe doing this?
Who am I to be deserving this?
Wouldn't it just be easier togo back and work with somebody
else?
That stuff doesn't go away.
(14:01):
The further along you go, Ithink you just get a shorter lag
time of how long it lasts andyou often get more confirmation
that you're on the right trackafter you have that little bout
right.
So I think anyone who saysthey've never had doubts along
(14:21):
the way, they've neverquestioned the model, they've
never questioned if they shouldbe doing this, they're probably
lying to themselves in somecapacity.
But the other thing that'shelped me is we focus really on
one thing.
When something isn't working,we iterate around that one thing
and that has, you know, threeyears into this current venture,
(14:44):
that has really allowed us toform the product that we have
today.
That's really allowed us to getvery clear on who we help, the
problems that our clients have,and I know what's at stake for
them, because those things wereat stake for me, right,
everything that people feltabout being bogged down in the
(15:05):
clinic, being burnt out,thinking about leaving the
profession, regretting going toPT school not because you didn't
love what you were doing, butyou didn't actually get to do
the cool stuff that you got todo when you were a tech.
I felt all that stuff you know,and so I go back to those
reminders of our mission is tomake sure that we can keep great
(15:26):
providers in the profession.
Tanner Welsch (15:29):
Throughout this business journey and growing out
your business, what resource,whatever it is, what would you
say has really been either ago-to or, throughout the
majority of this journey therethat you've gained a lot of
value, a lot of insight, a lotof support from?
Ray Gorman (15:46):
I think it's having a growth mindset around what I
will allow my business to become, and what I mean by that is I
think a lot of times peopleenter into something with.
This is what it's going to looklike, this is how it's going to
operate.
This is going to be the size ofthe business.
(16:07):
I'm going to operate soloforever, and I thought that as
well.
What I've allowed myself to dois just go overseeing the
general business, and it was alot of stress and I told myself
(16:38):
I didn't want that anymore.
But the thing that was reallystressful for me in that
capacity was not having theactual control that I needed to
be able to make the decisionsthat I wanted to make.
I needed to be able to make thedecisions that I wanted to make
.
So as I learned that aboutmyself throughout the journey,
as I learned that, okay, you'rein control of this, this is your
destiny, it allowed me to beopen to expanding our team.
(17:02):
It allowed me to be open tobringing people on to help us
grow.
It allowed me to say, hey, whatif we did bring on a marketing
department?
What if we did train somebodyto do sales with us?
What if we did start to getother faces involved in
fulfillment and that's just beena really cool evolution for me
of really something that Ididn't think I wanted initially.
(17:25):
That eventually evolved overtime.
Tanner Welsch (17:28):
Let's take another step further into that,
because I totally can get that.
You got this stress.
You not want to be in thisposition again, but basically it
sounds like you're in somelevel or another in your own
business in a very similarposition.
So what was it that shifted orchanged, or was it not as
stressful?
Ray Gorman (17:47):
There were a lot of things that were outside of my
control in the initial setup,and I don't do well, from a
nervous system perspective, in astate of constant chaos and
that's what it felt like for methan dedicating energy and
(18:09):
resource to something, gettingit 90% of the way there and then
saying, oh yeah, we're notdoing that anymore, and a lot of
that was happening for me.
Now it's something that I'mhighly sensitive to when it's my
job to protect my team.
It's my job to put my team inthe best position possible to
succeed.
It's my job to ask my team whatthey need to succeed.
(18:32):
It's my job to make sure thatI'm not causing problems for
them and I delegate clear enoughthat they don't cause problems
for me, and so, in a lot of ways, I learned a lot of the things
that I didn't want to do.
I learned a lot of the thingsabout who I didn't want to
become, and ultimately, thatshaped me into the leader that
(18:54):
I've become today of.
This is our mission, this isour offer, this is what we do
Simple, easy, clean, effective.
One thing let's nail it andlet's change the profession.
Tanner Welsch (19:07):
Love it.
What is, would you say, obviousto you now that maybe you
struggled with in the past or inthe moment of being in the
traditional PT realm?
Ray Gorman (19:35):
at one point, but no longer do.
Now I think we see a lot ofpeople get stuck in the status
quo because this is how we'vealways done things, that's how
their parents have done it.
Why would you leave your joband go do something for somebody
else?
Isn't that risky?
You just do your time, put yourhead down, stay miserable,
retire.
No, not a thing for me, andsometimes part of our role is
helping people do things thatthey know they need to do but
(19:59):
they're hesitant to do them.
Sometimes it's having themquestion the way that they think
, having them question the waythat they're currently auditing
the process, the way thatthey're viewing it, and that's
really the most effective part,I think, of the coaching that we
can provide is we've got tomake sure that we get some of
these personal things out of theway so that you can actually
(20:20):
show up in your business.
When we can get you to show upas a better person for both
yourself, the business stuffstarts to happen as a byproduct.
I think that's just a reallypowerful thing that I've caught
on to.
Tanner Welsch (20:32):
I love that, which brings another follow-up
question.
I think we've all been insituations where you can easily
look at relationships.
You know whether it's romanticor friends that change, but
we've always been in it.
I think many of us have been insituations where it's okay,
this is no longer serving eitherof us, but we're going through
the motions and, for whateverreason, we're not choosing to
(20:56):
have a mutual break off and goour separate ways and we're just
keep going through the motions.
So I want to use that similarframework towards owning and
operating a business.
So my question for you is howdo you know when it's time to
keep moving forwards with yourbusiness or change, or none of
it's working and you need acompletely new business?
How do you know when to keepversus giving up or changing?
Ray Gorman (21:17):
So I think we first got to outline a couple of
concepts that the staying in asituation that is familiar is
safer than moving into theunknown.
That is true in relationships,that is true in work life, that
is true in business.
But keeps you in your comfortzone.
(21:39):
And who grows in their comfortzone?
Nobody.
Discomfort is something that caneither be a good thing or be a
bad thing.
It's just a sensation before wedo something, because something
can be uncomfortable and goodfor us or something can be
uncomfortable and bad for us.
So if I'm feeling uncomfortableand the decision that I'm
(22:01):
looking to make aligns with myvalues and my beliefs and I say
no to that decision, I end upfeeling regret.
I should have done it.
If I say yes to that decision,I end up trending towards growth
.
Now let's flip that around.
(22:23):
If I feel the sensation ofdiscomfort, the thing that I'm
doing doesn't align with myvalues and beliefs and I do it
just because I feel like Ishould, that takes me to a path
of regret.
But if I say no in thatsituation, that provides me with
personal growth.
So I think what happens is weget so conditioned to discomfort
(22:46):
being a bad thing Instead ofsaying when I do something scary
that's worth it.
I'm supposed to feeluncomfortable because I care.
And you don't go far by makingeasy decisions.
Every decision that people havemade that's been uncomfortable
has been something that haspropelled them in the right
direction.
If it was easy, everyone woulddo it.
Tanner Welsch (23:08):
Yeah, I agree, man, and I think it goes back to
something similar that we weretalking about, which is you know
these challenges that you facegoing down the business or
entrepreneurial path.
You know imposter syndrome oram I doing the right thing?
Or you know analysis, paralysis, and no matter which choice we
make, there's pros and cons toeither one, and I love how you
gave a few examples there ofregret and whatnot.
(23:31):
I want to change to a few morespecific questions related to
business owners.
One is just a general allbusinesses.
The next one is going to beabout more towards the rehab
private practice business owners.
The first one, that's moregeneral, is how do you implement
your schedule to focus on allthe business aspects of your
(23:52):
business and not just theservice part, for example?
Ray Gorman (23:56):
Good question.
I think you've got to figureout what works for you
structurally.
What we generally have ourclients do is, you know, write
down all the things that youneed to do and block them into
admin fulfillment sales and thenstart to arrange them within
your schedule.
So this concept of timeblocking isn't new.
(24:18):
But if you were doing one taskover here and then the phone
rang and you had to go do switchto this task, you probably
wouldn't do the initial tasksuper well if you kept getting
interrupted, right?
So me personally, what I do ismy week is scheduled into Monday
and Fridays.
Are these build the businesstype days?
(24:41):
Tuesday, wednesday, thursday arereally the fulfillment days for
me, where I'm doing a lot ofstuff with and for my clients,
and so my Monday actually startsout with a meeting with my
assistant where we go over whatare the things that we've got in
progress.
Are we just operating a statusquo because things are moving
along?
What are things that are comingdown the pipeline?
What are changes that we'relooking to make?
(25:03):
From that meeting I go intomore of my visionary type work,
so I block out 90 to 120 minutesand that's where I'm thinking
about things that we're workingon the business.
I'm strategically planning whatis the next quarter going to
look like, what are the monthsgoing to look like within that
quarter, so that we can hitthese specific objectives.
(25:25):
I'm writing any of my contentduring that time because it is a
time when I am very focused andthat gets me through my Monday
and then the rest of the day isyou know, I generally meet with
my marketing team of what arethe changes that we're going to
make over this next two-weekperiod, four-week period, so
that you know they can do thethings that they need to do
(25:45):
throughout the week Tuesday,wednesday, thursday, fulfillment
, client stuff, maybe some salescalls, connection calls with
people, and then Fridays arereally used for building some of
the business resources.
So any trainings that we'regoing to put out a lot of the
time, I do those on Fridays.
Any of the courses that we'recreating or revamping or things
(26:07):
that we're working on, thosegenerally go on Fridays.
I'm typically done.
My day is usually done anywherebetween 4 and 6 pm.
I usually start around 10.
That's when I try to start.
I don't do much work at nightAfter I'm done.
I don't really do any work onthe weekends.
That's not my jam man, I'vedone that already 100% man.
Tanner Welsch (26:30):
Something that I love about being your own boss
and the control, like wementioned before, was you get to
make your own schedule and youalso get to see and serve
ideally the clients that youwant to serve, like that patient
population.
Ray Gorman (26:45):
I think that can really help with energy levels
and motivation and day-to-daystuff can really help with
energy levels and motivation andday-to-day stuff Blessing and a
curse right, because there areplenty of people who and myself,
the prior version of myselfincluded who don't know or
didn't know how to putboundaries around my energy and
(27:06):
I made myself too accessible,not thinking that was a big deal
.
I used to have clients textingme seven, eight, nine o'clock at
night and even if you say don'tworry about reading or
responding to this till tomorrow, I still read it.
It still triggers the workresponse in me and what I
(27:26):
noticed is nervous system spikesup, difficulty going to sleep,
difficulty staying asleepbecause now I'm already thinking
about the next day.
It literally kicks your bodyinto that work mode, that fight
or flight mode.
So for anyone out therelistening who is constantly
extending your boundaries, justremember your clients won't get
(27:46):
mad when you create boundaries.
You just believe that they will.
Your clients won't get mad whenyou create boundaries, you just
believe that they will.
And also your boundaries willallow you to show up as the best
version of yourself for thosefollowing days, because you've
got to recover energetically aswell.
Tanner Welsch (28:00):
100% For rehab private practice owners who are
interested in diversifying theirservices or maybe even offering
products.
How would you recommend goingabout this?
Ray Gorman (28:12):
When you say offering products, because that
can be a wide range what do youmean by that?
Tanner Welsch (28:20):
So this is just an example.
This is not something I'm doing.
It's just something I've heardsomebody that's they're
brainstorming things, so addingadditional, maybe health
products like CBD oils or thingslike that that would implement
into the rehab practice and whatthey're offering.
Ray Gorman (28:38):
That productization you know, full transparency
isn't really that physicalproduct, isn't really my realm.
Speaking on it from a generalsense, though, I think that it's
important to layer into howthat would become part of their
experience.
For example, I think it worksreally well in the gym space and
(28:59):
the fitness space, and then Ithink people can take that
example and work it into theirpractice.
If you are a trainer or a gymowner that is doing fitness
consults, you have a client comein, you're selling them
personal training, you'reselling them a membership.
You could also kind of layer on.
Most of our clients who getthese optimal results are also
(29:20):
taking these supplements thatare X, y and Z fish oil,
creatine.
It'd be actual things that youhad to believe in.
Now we have a version of ouroffer that actually includes
that, where you get this allencompassed.
Oh, by the way, it alsoincludes nutrition.
I know that you said you werelooking to do X, y and Z.
Now I can actually present asolution that combos all those
(29:43):
things.
I think what happens withbusinesses and this is with
virtual products or physicalproducts with businesses and
this is with virtual products orphysical products If I have it,
people will buy it.
If I just stock the shelveswith CBD, people are going to
inquire and buy that.
But a lot of times you have toeducate your consumer around how
we use it.
Why we use it.
(30:03):
Why should they buy this onefrom you?
Instead of going on Amazon andbuying it like a commodity, you
maybe want to present it with alittle familiarity.
We see clients all the time sayoh yeah, we have this low
ticket template offer that we'vecreated, but nobody's buying it
.
Yeah, why would they?
We're not presenting it in away that's valuable to them.
Tanner Welsch (30:24):
That leads into a great question that I have,
that came up in the betamastermind group for rehab
private practice owners thatwe're going through right now,
and that is this value.
When you're going to increaseyour prices or you're going to
make this sale, how do youunderstand and or get really the
(30:45):
customer to understand thevalue that you're giving them
and that you're offering them,and that this price is really
worth this?
Ray Gorman (30:52):
I think the biggest problem people have is we assume
what the consumer thinks isvaluable.
So, for example, if you told meI was getting one-on-one
attention and support, I don'tknow that I would find the same
amount of value in that assomebody who had a really bad
(31:12):
experience with physical therapy.
There was seven other clientsand they're being managed.
But if you ask, well, whatwould you be looking for from
your physical therapist or fromthe clinic that you'd actually
be working with, and they tellyou, well, I'd be looking for an
aspect of one-on-one support.
I'd be looking for an aspect ofa little bit more of a
(31:33):
relationship with my PT.
Well, now I know what thatperson finds valuable.
So the biggest thing that wehave changed in our process is,
instead of saying, here's allthe things that make our offer
valuable, we structure languagearound asking that consumer what
they're actually looking forand why those things would be
valuable to them.
(31:53):
When you can tie features andbenefits into an outcome, into a
result that makes thingsvaluable, you get this so that
you can do that.
We do this so that you don'texperience that.
That's really, I think, whatproviders are missing.
Businesses in general aremissing when it comes to talking
(32:13):
about value.
We have these pillars of whatwe know is valuable, but we need
to make sure that we'rematching it appropriately to the
unique construction of thatconsumer psychology.
Tanner Welsch (32:26):
And that even goes into, I mean, I think, all
aspects of businesses, and itreminds me of a little bit of
the story brand book.
You're trying to figure outyour customer, your avatar, and
figure out where are they in thejourney and how you align with
them, making that transformationand figuring out those details,
with the language that they use, what's important to them,
(32:47):
really placing yourself wherethey are and figuring out how
best to communicate what it isyou're offering and how that's
going to solve their problem.
Ray Gorman (32:57):
I'll tell a quick story on one of the biggest
mistakes I ever made in a salescombo.
I was meeting with achiropractor and she was in a
gym just like I was.
I was saying one of the biggestvalue adds for me when we add
our virtual process, what wecall a prescriptive exercise
program alongside the in-personsessions was I no longer had to
(33:18):
work with clients in person foran hour anymore and you won't
have to do that either.
And she was like I love workingin person with my clients for
an hour.
That's exactly what I meanabout making that assumption
right.
I was assuming that because Ihad that same feeling, that she
would have that same feeling,that other providers would have
that same feeling, but that'sjust not true.
(33:40):
So why would I say somethingthat was valuable to me, that's
valuable for maybe 80% of ourother consumers, but is not the
one thing that what we providewould make it valuable for them?
I put myself behind the eightball in that position, and I
think a lot of people do that.
And then they get hit with whatare called value objections,
(34:03):
where the consumer is eh, Idon't know if I'd do it.
Eh, that's expensive, moneyaside, would you do it and
they're like, eh, I don't know,maybe I'll, I could try my other
physical therapist.
Okay, we got a problem there.
Right, we got a big problemthere, for sure.
Tanner Welsch (34:17):
What would you say?
The future of rehab privatepractice looks like.
Ray Gorman (34:21):
Oh man, it's evolving.
I think we are going through areally big evolution right now.
I think we're very early in thedigitalization of the
profession and I think thatthere are things that are
happening that are gettingbetter, but they're still not
enough.
For example, in the insurancerealm we have remote therapeutic
(34:43):
monitoring that's coming up.
However, bang for buck.
I just don't see how evenintegrating that into your
clinic really even makes sense.
It seems not reimbursed highenough.
It seems there's too manycriteria for it to really
trigger where there's meaningfulrevenue coming through.
But I think it's anacknowledgement in the right
(35:04):
direction that providers,especially in the allied health
field, need processes that aremore scalable and allow us to
get paid without a direct tradefor time.
We seem to be the one group ofprofessions that is lagging
behind in any sort of efficiencymetric.
That's making sense for us toreally elevate our earnings.
(35:26):
So that's what I see on thevirtual side, our earnings.
So that's what I see on thevirtual side, what I see on the
employee side.
As far as what physicaltherapists are going to start
looking for, keep in mind myrealm is more the outpatient
orthopedic realm.
I know that this doesn't applyto a lot of other facets, but I
think you have PTs graduating inthis generation that they want
(35:49):
variety.
They grew up with technology.
They don't want to be throwninto a clinic where technology
isn't a thing.
They saw how efficienttechnology can make life and now
we're saying, oh yeah, but wedon't really use technology here
, only to document.
You're not going to keep as abusiness owner.
You're not going to keep youngphysical therapists around for
(36:11):
very long.
They're going to document.
You're not going to keep as abusiness owner.
You're not going to keep youngphysical therapists around for
very long.
They're going to leave.
So what I think needs to happenis the field needs to evolve a
little bit.
It needs to be more open toflexibility.
It needs to be open to moreideas.
You're going to have providersthat come in that aren't going
to want to be put in a box 40hours full time, that come in
that aren't going to want to beput in a box 40 hours full time.
From the consumer end, I justthink care is getting more
(36:34):
accessible, right?
You've got people working withclients all over the world
helping them solve problems thatin-person physical therapy
couldn't help them solve, andthe consumer is also becoming
more educated, they're catchingup with these options that you
know are going to exclude solelyin-person mechanisms.
Tanner Welsch (36:56):
That was something that I really liked
about what you were doing isthis hybrid model and
implementing tech and virtualand being on that verge.
You know, I think that'sexciting.
What is a question you wish youwere asked more?
Ray Gorman (37:22):
Why are you doing this?
You can look at that from amicro perspective.
What is a question you wish youwere asked?
More PT school, there's nowrong intervention there's.
Just why are we doing thisspecific one?
We tell our clients all thetime there's no wrong exercise
that you select.
Every exercise correctssomething.
But I think a lot of times wedo things, we add volume, we add
tasks, we add things to ourplate.
(37:42):
We don't actually know why.
If we ask that question alittle bit more, we'd start to
protect our energy a little bit,We'd start to get more clear on
why we're doing the things thatwe're doing, how we're doing
the things that we're doing, andwe'd be able to put the right
amount of resource into it aswell.
Tanner Welsch (38:00):
So, Ray, why are you doing what you're doing, man
?
Ray Gorman (38:04):
Because I see a big problem in the profession and I
experienced it myself.
Problem in the profession and Iexperienced it myself, and I
see something that is outdatedand I see something that has so
much potential to help peoplebut we are positioned very
poorly in the market.
We're not really known well forwhat we do.
Right, when you tell somebodyyou're a physical therapist,
(38:25):
they say oh so what do you like?
Stretch people?
Tanner Welsch (38:28):
No, no, no, you give them massages.
Ray Gorman (38:30):
Yeah, yeah, oh cool, I got to come see you for a
massage, right?
We're not known for gettingpeople's lives back.
We're not known for protectingpeople from the downside of
losing their fitness.
We're not known for havingsomebody come to us and ending
up further along in theirperformance than when they
(38:51):
started, even if they had aninjury.
And in a lot of cases, we'rejust shooting ourselves in the
foot because we can't control alot of the things that dictate
our profession, likereimbursement, the rules around
seeing clients and what you canbe reimbursed for, and so we do
it, like I said, in clients andwhat you can be reimbursed for.
(39:13):
And so we do it, like I said,man, to make sure that there is
a mechanism for PTs who want touse their $150,000, $200,000
skill set that they invested inand not leave the profession to
make more money.
That's why we do it.
Tanner Welsch (39:25):
I love that, man Ray.
Thank you for coming on theshow, man.
I really appreciate yourinsights and sharing your
experience and your stories.
Yeah, Thank you for having onthe show and I really appreciate
your insights and sharing yourexperience and your stories.
Ray Gorman (39:33):
Yeah, thank you for having me, man.
Tanner Welsch (39:35):
Anytime.
Intro (39:36):
Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast.
If this podcast was useful,make sure to hit that subscribe
button and leave a review.
For more information abouttransitioning to alternative
careers, head to RehabRebelsorgor follow us on Instagram at
Rehab Rebels Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
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