August 14, 2025 • 24 mins
Jeff Wenninger's journey from hockey player to 33-year law enforcement veteran provides a fascinating lens through which to examine police culture in America. Drawing from his unique background, Wenninger offers candid insights into the critical gaps plaguing modern policing – particularly the absence of critical thinking in a profession where split-second decisions can have life-altering consequences.
The conversation takes a sobering turn when Wenninger reveals that 36% of officer-involved shootings involve individuals experiencing mental health crises. He challenges the standard approach of multiple officers giving simultaneous commands with weapons drawn, noting how this often escalates rather than de-escalates volatile situations. His philosophy – "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" – encapsulates his belief that legal justification alone shouldn't determine an officer's actions.
Wenninger's global research into policing models offers hope for improvement. His time with London's Metropolitan Police revealed striking differences in approaches to suspects with non-firearm weapons, while Nordic countries' comprehensive selection and training processes demonstrate alternative pathways to building better police forces. These comparisons highlight both the challenges and possibilities for American law enforcement reform.
Perhaps most powerful is Wenninger's personal story of navigating racial tensions within the force shortly after the Los Angeles riots, and his commitment to community engagement despite ridicule from fellow officers. These experiences shaped his understanding that effective policing requires seeing shared humanity across divides and building genuine connections with community members.
Now as founder and CEO of Law Enforcement Consultants and author of the forthcoming book "On Thin Ice," Wenninger works to implement management best practices that can transform policing for the 21st century. His message combines realism about institutional resistance to change with hope that, with patience and commitment, law enforcement can evolve to better serve all communities.
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Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The co-hosts of this podcast are not medical professionals. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. Reliance on any information provided by the podcast hosts or guests is solely at your own risk.
Pamela Cass is a licensed broker with Kentwood Real Estate
Natalie Davis is a licensed broker with Keller Williams Realty Downtown, LLC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All of us reach a point in time where we are
depleted and need to somehowfind a way to reignite the fire
within.
But how do we spark that flame?
Welcome to Reignite Resilience,where we will venture into the
heart of the human spirit.
Resilience where we willventure into the heart of the
(00:27):
human spirit.
We'll discuss the art ofreigniting our passion and
strategies to stoke ourenthusiasm.
And now here are your hosts,natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think that's such a huge piece because you hit the
nail on the head the criticalthinking element.
Like just we as a society, Idon't think that we slow down
enough and allow ourselves thatspace just for the processing of
right.
So the critical thinking pieceis a piece that's missing in a
lot of segments of our worldtoday.
But what I love that you sharedas you went into this
(01:03):
experience is the curiosity andI talk a lot about curiosity
when I'm teaching within thereal estate space when you go in
with a level of curiosity whereyou're just here.
I just want to learn.
I'm anxious to know more, learnmore, grow, expand, do that
reflection, the internal,because that becomes the
introspective work as well.
Right, and so, having thatlevel of curiosity, I don't have
(01:25):
all of the answers, I don'teven know what I'm stepping into
, but I want to learn.
I think that propels you somuch further at the end of the
day.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
You know it's not accepting the status quo as well
, having the courage to questionthe status quo and what has
been the way it's been doneforever and asking why is that?
And, internally and externally,having the discussions with
yourself and with others thatperhaps there could be a better
way.
And unfortunately, if you wanta challenge, try to have those
(01:55):
conversations in the lawenforcement culture.
Exactly, it's tough.
You know what you were talkingabout.
Sometimes.
There's oftentimes a gap ofcritical thinking.
Well, listen, that void is quitelarge in law enforcement and
it's in a career that probablyleast likely can afford to have
it be absent.
(02:15):
You need law enforcementofficers that are critical
thinkers, that have moralreasoning, you know their
ethical decision-making, they'reproblem solvers.
These are the types ofcharacteristics that you're
looking for in a law enforcementofficer.
But unfortunately, in lawenforcement, when you get hired,
it's not a selection process.
It's a selection process.
(02:35):
If you don't have a criminalrecord, your finances are in
order and you basically been anupstanding citizen, then you got
a decent chance of gettinghired.
That's really not how thatshould be done.
Now, when you're talking aboutthat critical role of somebody
that's going to be serving thecommunity in diverse communities
under stressful, rapidlyunfolding tactical scenarios
(02:57):
that a bad decision can have avery tragic outcome, one that
could be avoided.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Right, absolutely.
So let's talk about the workyou do now, because it sounds
like this is exactly what you'retalking about.
You saw what was missing or ismissing in law enforcement, and
it looks like you're trying tokind of close that gap a little
bit.
So is that what got you into it, like what you experienced over
the 33 years in law enforcement?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Well, I felt that I did 33 years in law enforcement.
What a waste if I didn't takethat experience and allow others
to benefit from it.
So that's what motivated me andpropelled me to become the
founder and CEO of LawEnforcement Consultants, where
we work to implement managementbest practices for law
enforcement, because, althoughthere is no national standard
(03:47):
across the board for lawenforcement in this country,
there are management bestpractices that, universally
applied, will make lawenforcement much more successful
moving forward in the 21stcentury.
It's about reducing liability,being more operationally
effective and efficient it'sreally important and basically
maximizing the ability to havean optimal outcome.
(04:07):
Now I'll tell you one of themost challenging times that we
have right now is the reality ofofficer-involved shootings.
36% of officer-involvedshootings in this country
involve an individual who'ssuffering a mental health crisis
36%.
That's a lot, and if we utilizethe traditional police tactics
(04:28):
that were taught in the policeacademy, we're not going to have
optimal outcomes.
So we need to change ourmindset and how we view our
responsibility when we respondto those types of calls, not
only having the knowledge of howto identify that that's what
we're dealing with, but alsoknowing better how to handle
them, but, most importantly,having some self-awareness of
(04:51):
how somebody who's suffering amental health crisis is going to
respond to a number of officersin uniform generally, and
oftentimes making multipleverbal commands simultaneously
with guns drawn, tasers drawnwith a red dot on their chest
and beanbag shotguns.
And we'll call that attempts atde-escalation.
(05:14):
But actually what we're reallydoing is we're escalating the
situation.
Is it any secret or surprise topeople that these end with
unnecessary deaths oftentimes?
Don't get me wrong.
I'm not here to tell you thatpolice officers should be
pacifists.
There are times that lawenforcement officers have got to
use lethal force, but thatshouldn't be their go-to.
(05:34):
There needs to be anunderstanding, because
oftentimes this is the problemin law enforcement Just because
you can doesn't mean you should.
So just because the codifiedlaw would protect you, the
utilization of lethal force itdoesn't mean that it's the right
thing to do in that moment.
And I had a number of thosetypes of circumstances during my
career that I didn't resort tolethal force because I didn't
(05:59):
need to.
It would have been an in-policyshooting.
It would have been justified.
So that's what we expect of ourlaw enforcement officers those
critical decisions understressful circumstances.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
But if they don't have the critical thinking
skills, like you were raised andmodeled, they don't even know
how to do it.
They just are instinctivelygoing with the force instead of
the critical thinking.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Right, and it has a lot to do with training.
And then, even if we'retraining everybody to do things
properly, if the police culturein the organization does not
match the training, I always saythat culture eats training for
lunch.
So you will see officers actout consistent to the culture,
even when their training iscontradictory to what the
(06:43):
culture is telling them to do.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
How do you change the culture?
Is that even possible?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, and it's interesting because I think
that's the exact mission thatyou're on, jeff, like what
you're working to create rightnow, even with the years of
experience that you've hadwithin law enforcement, is truly
in the direction of changingthe culture of law enforcement.
If I'm not mistaken, thatsounds like the mission that
you're on.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Well, yeah, very much so, and it's not just with my
company, law EnforcementConsultants.
I have a forthcoming book.
It's called On Thin Ice, and Icame up with that title for two
reasons.
It's about my hockey backgroundand how my hockey background
influenced who I became as anadult and the values that I took
(07:26):
into my law enforcement career,most importantly, my work ethic
to always strive for excellence.
I bleed blue.
I love law enforcement, but I'mhonest about where law
enforcement has been, where itcurrently is and what needs to
be done to get us where we needto go to be successful moving
(07:47):
forward in the 21st century.
And that's what I talk about inmy book.
Yes, I talk about my uniquebackground that I explained
already.
I talk about my professionalexperiences and my practical
insights and then I get myactionable solutions on what I
believe could be helpful to besuccessful moving forward.
And it's not me telling theworld this is what needs to be
(08:10):
done.
It's really about fosteringthis discussion, creating the
dialogue, because I've alwayssaid it's not about being right,
it's about getting it right,and that requires that you have
as many diverse opinions andbackgrounds and experience
levels at the table when you'rediscussing any issue, and law
(08:31):
enforcement needs to open itselfup to that and stop imposing
its authority on the communitiesthat they serve, but actually
make the communities part of theorganization, and not just in
theory but actually in practice,where they have a say in how
things are going to be done.
Because ultimately, isn't thatwho our ultimate boss is?
(08:52):
The communities that we serve.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That you're serving, yeah, so going beyond, like risk
mitigation and risk managementright, because you can do
training and teaching on that.
Like this is probably what'ssafe and you have it from the
practicum standpoint.
But you're stepping into bestpractices, that creates a new
culture and it's community bycommunity, right, like that's
the reality.
It's not what you like.
(09:14):
If you're offering this in LACounty, that looks completely
different than when you're inOhio, where you know middle
America, USA, it's going to lookcompletely different.
And so, understanding that thatis a true living, breathing
relationship that is created tokind of meld and create and have
(09:35):
this bonded relationship, whichI think is ultimately where we
started.
There's a riff that has createdalong the way, but I believe
that we can get back there.
That's my thought process, butI don't work in that space.
Don't work in the space.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Everybody should be hopeful because, you know, in
writing my book, I did a lot ofresearch.
I went over to Europe and Iwent to London and I spent some
time with the MetropolitanLondon Police, which is very
different because they don'thave the prevalence of firearms
in their society.
Their officers, unless they'rea specialized entity within the
(10:09):
organization, do not carryfirearms.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
But a huge like wall between citizens and the right.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
But it's interesting because if you well London or
England and Wales, they had five, five officer involved
shootings five.
Now people are going to say,well, that's because the
citizens don't carry guns True,but they have a different
mindset in regards to what theirrole is, where we have an
(10:40):
unbelievable number ofofficer-involved shootings in
this country when a suspect'sarmed with a weapon other than a
firearm, like a knife, ahatchet, a bat, whatever right
and the number ofofficer-involved shootings that
occur here under thosecircumstances that don't occur
there because they don't havethe firearms.
They have a complete differentmindset.
But I would suggest they have abetter track record.
(11:00):
But I would suggest they have abetter track record than us in
resolving those types ofsituations.
Better Because, if you look atthe data, we have a higher
incidence of officers injuriesin handling people with weapons
other than firearms than they doover there in the UK.
So there's something that wecan learn from them.
And if you look at the Nordiccountries, as I spoke about
(11:21):
earlier, you talk about who youhire.
It may not necessarily be somuch about who you hire as much
as it's about how you hire.
So over there you, generallyspeaking, go through an
undergraduate criminal justiceprogram during your training and
then they incorporate thepolice training and the tactics
and the firearms into that.
(11:42):
We're talking two and threeyears training and during that
training you're being evaluatedto see if you have these
characteristics that we spoke ofthat are indicative of somebody
that's going to be successfulin law enforcement.
That's huge.
Are you a problem solver?
Do you have moral reasoning?
Are you able to perform understress?
(12:04):
Do you respond well to training?
Do you have an open mind toaccepting other perspectives and
other points of view?
All of those, all these thingsare occurring while they're
going through this training andthen, and only then, if they've
demonstrated that they have allthese characteristics and they
perform to a standard that'srequired in that training, do
(12:25):
they get hired.
I think there's something thatcan be learned from that 100%.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Much higher barrier to entry in those countries.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, at least the character of the individuals
that are on the front line,right, because, and again, I've
never served as an officer orany type of law enforcement
position, but I'm imagining thatthe moment that you don't want
to realize and look over thatyour partner and you are not on
the same page from a moralstandpoint is not the time that
you need to have thatrealization.
So, at least knowing thatyou're on the same field, yeah,
(12:55):
yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And that is a reality .
And I'll share an experiencewith you.
When I was first working at77th Division and it was not
much more than a year after theriots, and I was patrolling in
77th Division in a communitythat basically, just you know,
exploded in the violence that itdid, and it wasn't, let's be
honest, it wasn't about the notguilty verdicts, that was the
(13:21):
catalyst, but it was aboutdecades of mistreatment from the
police in those communities.
And we're talking just over ayear.
I came to work one day and mypartner wasn't there, so I got
assigned to another officerwhose partner wasn't there,
worked with this officer onetime and during this time he was
driving and I was the passengerofficer and we were driving
(13:42):
down the road and we saw acouple.
It was a female black and amale white and they were holding
hands.
And he says my parents taughtme better than that.
And I go what do you mean?
And he goes my parents taughtme not to have sex with animals.
Now, he had no idea that I hada sister, taught me not to have
sex with animals.
Now, he had no idea that I hada sister, foster sister, who was
Black.
At the time I had been datingfor two years, a female Black
(14:06):
deputy sheriff who had been bornand raised in South LA and
really helped me to understandthe police community
relationship and the what hadcaused it to deteriorate to the
point that it had.
I mean, we used to go everySunday, we'd go to our Aunt
Edna's in Inglewood and I wasbeing exposed to food I'd never
(14:28):
eaten before.
You know, you know the collardgreens and her.
You know I loved her peachcobbler, oh my goodness.
But you know I was shocked thatjust because I looked the way
that I look, just assumed that Ihad the same belief system that
he did.
And this was a concern becausein law enforcement, especially
(14:48):
in the culture back in the early90s, you can't just go running
and, oh, this officer said this,let's be honest, you can't do
that.
You know you'll be ostracizedand you know it won't be long
until it's impossible for you tocontinue with your career,
absolutely.
But I knew I didn't want towork with this guy, but I knew
that he was representative of acertain percentage of the
officers, because really whatyou have to be concerned about
(15:10):
is that people's attitudes andbeliefs impact their actions,
yeah, the decisions they make,yeah, and I'm like I can't be
working the same radio car withthis guy because I don't know
what he'll do based on that typeof a belief system.
You know, it was a challengingtime because, like I said, the
riots had just just occurred andpeople hated us, certainly
(15:34):
hated police officers thatlooked like me, and you know you
can respond to that indifferent ways and once again it
goes back to it's not aboutwhat happens to you or how
you're being treated, it's howyou respond to that.
And what I saw was a need forthe community to understand that
I did not see them as the enemyand I needed to engage with
(15:57):
them.
So they understood that, but,more importantly, that they
understood that I shouldn't beseen as the enemy.
So you know, I used to take thetime when I had it to go into
the projects and I would throwthe football with the kids.
And you know these kids they'reliving in these gang infested
areas and there will be a dayit's not if it's when they're
(16:18):
going to be confronted withhaving to make a decision on
whether they're going to enterthe gang or what have you.
And if and if any way I couldtouch one of them where they
said you know, I remember thatofficer, one injured.
He was a good guy.
All cops are bad and that mayinfluence their decision on what
they do when that time comes.
That's well worth my time, andI used to get ridiculed for it,
(16:41):
you know, I just thought it wasimportant.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
By the other officers .
You were ridiculed by the otherofficers.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, right, you know , because they needed to see.
I don't care where you grow up,we have more in common than we
have.
That's different, 100% yes.
And the one thing that I wouldsay made me successful in my law
enforcement career was myunderstanding that we are all
driven by the same emotions.
It's about appealing topeople's emotions, those core,
raw emotions, and if you can dothat, you can oftentimes get
(17:11):
voluntary compliance from peoplethat even are the most hardened
criminals, because we're allthe same, we really are, and my
father used to tell me he said,son, you're an unbelievably
driven young man and always wereas a young boy.
That's why you had theopportunities you had in ice
hockey and you played hockey atthe level you played and he goes
.
Had you been in an environmentsimilar to the places you're
(17:35):
policing, your leadershipprobably would have driven you
to be the leader of the gang.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Of the gang yeah, I mean same skills, just different
environment, and you would havedriven you to be the leader of
the gang.
Of the gang, yeah, I mean yousame skills, just different
environment, and you would havebeen the leader there.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
You have to understand that.
So you and the leader of thegang, you're pretty much cut
from the same cloth, my friend,just different environments.
Yeah, that's how you approachit.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Yeah, different influences you had.
You know your parents wereincredible role models for you.
And, wow, is your book alreadyout for people to purchase.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yep, it'll be out in September.
I'm actually going to make anannouncement.
I do a syndicated.
I'm a co-host on a syndicatedradio show.
I'll be making the liveannouncement on that.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh well, wonderful.
So then, for the ReigniteResilience listeners you heard
it here first, on thin ice.
It is coming out in September.
That's awesome.
Yes, love that.
Congratulations.
Congratulations on the book,and this looks like it creates a
space to not just do trainingand just education within the
(18:36):
space of law enforcement, butalso just for the general public
and the consumer as well, or, Iguess, the citizens within the
communities that you all areserving.
Out of curiosity, my owncuriosity for you, jeff, I would
like to see or hear from youwhat was the one thing that you
learned out of your 33 years ofexperience.
What's the one thing thatresonates with you today that
(18:57):
you either have instilled inyour son or that has changed how
you show up as a person everyday?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Well, I would think it would have to be patience.
My law enforcement career, theinstitution of law enforcement,
is slow moving to change andit's not keeping up with the
rapidly changing societalexpectations of law enforcement.
So you need to be patient inthat of law enforcement.
So you need to be patient inthat, if you have the mindset
that I do, where you want toperform not only individually
(19:26):
but as a collective professionat an optimal level, you have to
be patient in getting there andthen being a father, you need
to be patient and you need toteach patience, poison grace and
be patient.
And that's what I really strivefor and that's really the
premise behind my book.
My goal is to enlighten thereaders, have them at the end of
(19:50):
the tunnel here.
There are things that we can doto fix this thin ice that we're
standing on and hopefully thatlaw enforcement takes the
opportunity to navigate that andcontrol and dictate how these
(20:13):
changes will occur, rather thanhave them imposed on them.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Absolutely Patience.
Patience it's not what I wouldhave imagined, but I think
that's great.
It makes complete sense,starting from an experience or
an interaction that you had at ayounger age looking at
excessive force and full-fledgedin it in the trenches and
learning so much and having suchan impact on the communities
that you were able to serveduring the time that you served
(20:39):
in law enforcement.
Thank you for that and thankyou for continuing to do the
work.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, make a difference, incredible,
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I love that.
Well, we will make sure on ThinIce, will it be available on
Amazon and online bookstores?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It'll be on every platform.
You'll be able to go to BarnesNoble and buy it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Beautiful Barnes, Noble Amazon.
We will make sure that we dropa link and we'll update the show
notes after the release inSeptember so our listeners can
get a copy of On Thin Ice, Thankyou, thank you.
Thank you, Jeff, for joining us.
If our listeners want to get intouch with you, what's the best
thing to do?
Website, email, how is the bestway that they can connect with
(21:16):
you?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Well, on social media .
You can go to Jeff Wenninger ateither Facebook or LinkedIn and
I respond to all messages Inregards to the book.
If you want to find out moreabout the book, you can go to
onthinicebookcom, and when yougo there you can get put on the
mailing list.
So you'll get a hard copysigned book, as well as other
(21:47):
gifts that are driven by thespirit of the book.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Love that.
Who doesn't love some swag?
That's awesome.
We will make sure that we addthat link on finicebookcom We'll
add that in our show notes.
Jeff, is there anything thatyou would like to leave our
listeners with that we have nothad a chance to touch on yet
today?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, no, I just.
I think it's important thateverybody, regardless of what
your, your desires or goals oraspirations are, is that you,
you always maintain your focusand be be true to yourself and
your passion and in doing that,don't get overwhelmed in regards
to ignoring the time you needto take to take care of yourself
(22:27):
, because you can only be asgood as you are at taking care
of yourself.
That's huge.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Fabulous.
I think that's a fabulous placefor us to land and end it
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for taking the timeout to join us.
Thank you for giving us insightinto your background, your
story and sharing someinformation about your book as
well Really excited to get ahold of that and start reading
it and diving in.
And thank you for sharing justyour insight with our listeners.
(22:55):
It's been really greatconversation.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Thank you for having me, it was good.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, absolutely, and you all know.
If you're looking for moreinformation on Reignite
Resilience, head on over toreigniteresiliencecom or find us
on Facebook or Instagram atReignite Resilience Podcast.
Until next time, we will seeyou all soon.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Bye everyone.
Thank you for joining us todayon the Reignite Resilience
Podcast.
We hope you had some ahamoments and learned a few new
real life ideas.
To fuel the flames of passion,please subscribe on your
favorite streaming platform,like or download your favorite
episodes and, of course, sharewith your friends and family.
(23:32):
We look forward to seeing youagain next time on Reignite
Resilience.
All of us reach a point in time where we are
depleted and need to somehowfind a way to reignite the fire
within.
But how do we spark that flame?
Welcome to Reignite Resilience,where we will venture into the
heart of the human spirit.
Resilience where we willventure into the heart of the
(00:27):
human spirit.
We'll discuss the art ofreigniting our passion and
strategies to stoke ourenthusiasm.
And now here are your hosts,natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think that's such a huge piece because you hit the
nail on the head the criticalthinking element.
Like just we as a society, Idon't think that we slow down
enough and allow ourselves thatspace just for the processing of
right.
So the critical thinking pieceis a piece that's missing in a
lot of segments of our worldtoday.
But what I love that you sharedas you went into this
(01:03):
experience is the curiosity andI talk a lot about curiosity
when I'm teaching within thereal estate space when you go in
with a level of curiosity whereyou're just here.
I just want to learn.
I'm anxious to know more, learnmore, grow, expand, do that
reflection, the internal,because that becomes the
introspective work as well.
Right, and so, having thatlevel of curiosity, I don't have
(01:25):
all of the answers, I don'teven know what I'm stepping into
, but I want to learn.
I think that propels you somuch further at the end of the
day.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
You know it's not accepting the status quo as well
, having the courage to questionthe status quo and what has
been the way it's been doneforever and asking why is that?
And, internally and externally,having the discussions with
yourself and with others thatperhaps there could be a better
way.
And unfortunately, if you wanta challenge, try to have those
(01:55):
conversations in the lawenforcement culture.
Exactly, it's tough.
You know what you were talkingabout.
Sometimes.
There's oftentimes a gap ofcritical thinking.
Well, listen, that void is quitelarge in law enforcement and
it's in a career that probablyleast likely can afford to have
it be absent.
(02:15):
You need law enforcementofficers that are critical
thinkers, that have moralreasoning, you know their
ethical decision-making, they'reproblem solvers.
These are the types ofcharacteristics that you're
looking for in a law enforcementofficer.
But unfortunately, in lawenforcement, when you get hired,
it's not a selection process.
It's a selection process.
(02:35):
If you don't have a criminalrecord, your finances are in
order and you basically been anupstanding citizen, then you got
a decent chance of gettinghired.
That's really not how thatshould be done.
Now, when you're talking aboutthat critical role of somebody
that's going to be serving thecommunity in diverse communities
under stressful, rapidlyunfolding tactical scenarios
(02:57):
that a bad decision can have avery tragic outcome, one that
could be avoided.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Right, absolutely.
So let's talk about the workyou do now, because it sounds
like this is exactly what you'retalking about.
You saw what was missing or ismissing in law enforcement, and
it looks like you're trying tokind of close that gap a little
bit.
So is that what got you into it, like what you experienced over
the 33 years in law enforcement?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Well, I felt that I did 33 years in law enforcement.
What a waste if I didn't takethat experience and allow others
to benefit from it.
So that's what motivated me andpropelled me to become the
founder and CEO of LawEnforcement Consultants, where
we work to implement managementbest practices for law
enforcement, because, althoughthere is no national standard
(03:47):
across the board for lawenforcement in this country,
there are management bestpractices that, universally
applied, will make lawenforcement much more successful
moving forward in the 21stcentury.
It's about reducing liability,being more operationally
effective and efficient it'sreally important and basically
maximizing the ability to havean optimal outcome.
(04:07):
Now I'll tell you one of themost challenging times that we
have right now is the reality ofofficer-involved shootings.
36% of officer-involvedshootings in this country
involve an individual who'ssuffering a mental health crisis
36%.
That's a lot, and if we utilizethe traditional police tactics
(04:28):
that were taught in the policeacademy, we're not going to have
optimal outcomes.
So we need to change ourmindset and how we view our
responsibility when we respondto those types of calls, not
only having the knowledge of howto identify that that's what
we're dealing with, but alsoknowing better how to handle
them, but, most importantly,having some self-awareness of
(04:51):
how somebody who's suffering amental health crisis is going to
respond to a number of officersin uniform generally, and
oftentimes making multipleverbal commands simultaneously
with guns drawn, tasers drawnwith a red dot on their chest
and beanbag shotguns.
And we'll call that attempts atde-escalation.
(05:14):
But actually what we're reallydoing is we're escalating the
situation.
Is it any secret or surprise topeople that these end with
unnecessary deaths oftentimes?
Don't get me wrong.
I'm not here to tell you thatpolice officers should be
pacifists.
There are times that lawenforcement officers have got to
use lethal force, but thatshouldn't be their go-to.
(05:34):
There needs to be anunderstanding, because
oftentimes this is the problemin law enforcement Just because
you can doesn't mean you should.
So just because the codifiedlaw would protect you, the
utilization of lethal force itdoesn't mean that it's the right
thing to do in that moment.
And I had a number of thosetypes of circumstances during my
career that I didn't resort tolethal force because I didn't
(05:59):
need to.
It would have been an in-policyshooting.
It would have been justified.
So that's what we expect of ourlaw enforcement officers those
critical decisions understressful circumstances.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
But if they don't have the critical thinking
skills, like you were raised andmodeled, they don't even know
how to do it.
They just are instinctivelygoing with the force instead of
the critical thinking.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Right, and it has a lot to do with training.
And then, even if we'retraining everybody to do things
properly, if the police culturein the organization does not
match the training, I always saythat culture eats training for
lunch.
So you will see officers actout consistent to the culture,
even when their training iscontradictory to what the
(06:43):
culture is telling them to do.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
How do you change the culture?
Is that even possible?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, and it's interesting because I think
that's the exact mission thatyou're on, jeff, like what
you're working to create rightnow, even with the years of
experience that you've hadwithin law enforcement, is truly
in the direction of changingthe culture of law enforcement.
If I'm not mistaken, thatsounds like the mission that
you're on.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Well, yeah, very much so, and it's not just with my
company, law EnforcementConsultants.
I have a forthcoming book.
It's called On Thin Ice, and Icame up with that title for two
reasons.
It's about my hockey backgroundand how my hockey background
influenced who I became as anadult and the values that I took
(07:26):
into my law enforcement career,most importantly, my work ethic
to always strive for excellence.
I bleed blue.
I love law enforcement, but I'mhonest about where law
enforcement has been, where itcurrently is and what needs to
be done to get us where we needto go to be successful moving
(07:47):
forward in the 21st century.
And that's what I talk about inmy book.
Yes, I talk about my uniquebackground that I explained
already.
I talk about my professionalexperiences and my practical
insights and then I get myactionable solutions on what I
believe could be helpful to besuccessful moving forward.
And it's not me telling theworld this is what needs to be
(08:10):
done.
It's really about fosteringthis discussion, creating the
dialogue, because I've alwayssaid it's not about being right,
it's about getting it right,and that requires that you have
as many diverse opinions andbackgrounds and experience
levels at the table when you'rediscussing any issue, and law
(08:31):
enforcement needs to open itselfup to that and stop imposing
its authority on the communitiesthat they serve, but actually
make the communities part of theorganization, and not just in
theory but actually in practice,where they have a say in how
things are going to be done.
Because ultimately, isn't thatwho our ultimate boss is?
(08:52):
The communities that we serve.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That you're serving, yeah, so going beyond, like risk
mitigation and risk managementright, because you can do
training and teaching on that.
Like this is probably what'ssafe and you have it from the
practicum standpoint.
But you're stepping into bestpractices, that creates a new
culture and it's community bycommunity, right, like that's
the reality.
It's not what you like.
(09:14):
If you're offering this in LACounty, that looks completely
different than when you're inOhio, where you know middle
America, USA, it's going to lookcompletely different.
And so, understanding that thatis a true living, breathing
relationship that is created tokind of meld and create and have
(09:35):
this bonded relationship, whichI think is ultimately where we
started.
There's a riff that has createdalong the way, but I believe
that we can get back there.
That's my thought process, butI don't work in that space.
Don't work in the space.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Everybody should be hopeful because, you know, in
writing my book, I did a lot ofresearch.
I went over to Europe and Iwent to London and I spent some
time with the MetropolitanLondon Police, which is very
different because they don'thave the prevalence of firearms
in their society.
Their officers, unless they'rea specialized entity within the
(10:09):
organization, do not carryfirearms.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
But a huge like wall between citizens and the right.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
But it's interesting because if you well London or
England and Wales, they had five, five officer involved
shootings five.
Now people are going to say,well, that's because the
citizens don't carry guns True,but they have a different
mindset in regards to what theirrole is, where we have an
(10:40):
unbelievable number ofofficer-involved shootings in
this country when a suspect'sarmed with a weapon other than a
firearm, like a knife, ahatchet, a bat, whatever right
and the number ofofficer-involved shootings that
occur here under thosecircumstances that don't occur
there because they don't havethe firearms.
They have a complete differentmindset.
But I would suggest they have abetter track record.
(11:00):
But I would suggest they have abetter track record than us in
resolving those types ofsituations.
Better Because, if you look atthe data, we have a higher
incidence of officers injuriesin handling people with weapons
other than firearms than they doover there in the UK.
So there's something that wecan learn from them.
And if you look at the Nordiccountries, as I spoke about
(11:21):
earlier, you talk about who youhire.
It may not necessarily be somuch about who you hire as much
as it's about how you hire.
So over there you, generallyspeaking, go through an
undergraduate criminal justiceprogram during your training and
then they incorporate thepolice training and the tactics
and the firearms into that.
(11:42):
We're talking two and threeyears training and during that
training you're being evaluatedto see if you have these
characteristics that we spoke ofthat are indicative of somebody
that's going to be successfulin law enforcement.
That's huge.
Are you a problem solver?
Do you have moral reasoning?
Are you able to perform understress?
(12:04):
Do you respond well to training?
Do you have an open mind toaccepting other perspectives and
other points of view?
All of those, all these thingsare occurring while they're
going through this training andthen, and only then, if they've
demonstrated that they have allthese characteristics and they
perform to a standard that'srequired in that training, do
(12:25):
they get hired.
I think there's something thatcan be learned from that 100%.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Much higher barrier to entry in those countries.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, at least the character of the individuals
that are on the front line,right, because, and again, I've
never served as an officer orany type of law enforcement
position, but I'm imagining thatthe moment that you don't want
to realize and look over thatyour partner and you are not on
the same page from a moralstandpoint is not the time that
you need to have thatrealization.
So, at least knowing thatyou're on the same field, yeah,
(12:55):
yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And that is a reality .
And I'll share an experiencewith you.
When I was first working at77th Division and it was not
much more than a year after theriots, and I was patrolling in
77th Division in a communitythat basically, just you know,
exploded in the violence that itdid, and it wasn't, let's be
honest, it wasn't about the notguilty verdicts, that was the
(13:21):
catalyst, but it was aboutdecades of mistreatment from the
police in those communities.
And we're talking just over ayear.
I came to work one day and mypartner wasn't there, so I got
assigned to another officerwhose partner wasn't there,
worked with this officer onetime and during this time he was
driving and I was the passengerofficer and we were driving
(13:42):
down the road and we saw acouple.
It was a female black and amale white and they were holding
hands.
And he says my parents taughtme better than that.
And I go what do you mean?
And he goes my parents taughtme not to have sex with animals.
Now, he had no idea that I hada sister, taught me not to have
sex with animals.
Now, he had no idea that I hada sister, foster sister, who was
Black.
At the time I had been datingfor two years, a female Black
(14:06):
deputy sheriff who had been bornand raised in South LA and
really helped me to understandthe police community
relationship and the what hadcaused it to deteriorate to the
point that it had.
I mean, we used to go everySunday, we'd go to our Aunt
Edna's in Inglewood and I wasbeing exposed to food I'd never
(14:28):
eaten before.
You know, you know the collardgreens and her.
You know I loved her peachcobbler, oh my goodness.
But you know I was shocked thatjust because I looked the way
that I look, just assumed that Ihad the same belief system that
he did.
And this was a concern becausein law enforcement, especially
(14:48):
in the culture back in the early90s, you can't just go running
and, oh, this officer said this,let's be honest, you can't do
that.
You know you'll be ostracizedand you know it won't be long
until it's impossible for you tocontinue with your career,
absolutely.
But I knew I didn't want towork with this guy, but I knew
that he was representative of acertain percentage of the
officers, because really whatyou have to be concerned about
(15:10):
is that people's attitudes andbeliefs impact their actions,
yeah, the decisions they make,yeah, and I'm like I can't be
working the same radio car withthis guy because I don't know
what he'll do based on that typeof a belief system.
You know, it was a challengingtime because, like I said, the
riots had just just occurred andpeople hated us, certainly
(15:34):
hated police officers thatlooked like me, and you know you
can respond to that indifferent ways and once again it
goes back to it's not aboutwhat happens to you or how
you're being treated, it's howyou respond to that.
And what I saw was a need forthe community to understand that
I did not see them as the enemyand I needed to engage with
(15:57):
them.
So they understood that, but,more importantly, that they
understood that I shouldn't beseen as the enemy.
So you know, I used to take thetime when I had it to go into
the projects and I would throwthe football with the kids.
And you know these kids they'reliving in these gang infested
areas and there will be a dayit's not if it's when they're
(16:18):
going to be confronted withhaving to make a decision on
whether they're going to enterthe gang or what have you.
And if and if any way I couldtouch one of them where they
said you know, I remember thatofficer, one injured.
He was a good guy.
All cops are bad and that mayinfluence their decision on what
they do when that time comes.
That's well worth my time, andI used to get ridiculed for it,
(16:41):
you know, I just thought it wasimportant.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
By the other officers .
You were ridiculed by the otherofficers.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, right, you know , because they needed to see.
I don't care where you grow up,we have more in common than we
have.
That's different, 100% yes.
And the one thing that I wouldsay made me successful in my law
enforcement career was myunderstanding that we are all
driven by the same emotions.
It's about appealing topeople's emotions, those core,
raw emotions, and if you can dothat, you can oftentimes get
(17:11):
voluntary compliance from peoplethat even are the most hardened
criminals, because we're allthe same, we really are, and my
father used to tell me he said,son, you're an unbelievably
driven young man and always wereas a young boy.
That's why you had theopportunities you had in ice
hockey and you played hockey atthe level you played and he goes
.
Had you been in an environmentsimilar to the places you're
(17:35):
policing, your leadershipprobably would have driven you
to be the leader of the gang.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Of the gang yeah, I mean same skills, just different
environment, and you would havedriven you to be the leader of
the gang.
Of the gang, yeah, I mean yousame skills, just different
environment, and you would havebeen the leader there.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
You have to understand that.
So you and the leader of thegang, you're pretty much cut
from the same cloth, my friend,just different environments.
Yeah, that's how you approachit.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Yeah, different influences you had.
You know your parents wereincredible role models for you.
And, wow, is your book alreadyout for people to purchase.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yep, it'll be out in September.
I'm actually going to make anannouncement.
I do a syndicated.
I'm a co-host on a syndicatedradio show.
I'll be making the liveannouncement on that.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh well, wonderful.
So then, for the ReigniteResilience listeners you heard
it here first, on thin ice.
It is coming out in September.
That's awesome.
Yes, love that.
Congratulations.
Congratulations on the book,and this looks like it creates a
space to not just do trainingand just education within the
(18:36):
space of law enforcement, butalso just for the general public
and the consumer as well, or, Iguess, the citizens within the
communities that you all areserving.
Out of curiosity, my owncuriosity for you, jeff, I would
like to see or hear from youwhat was the one thing that you
learned out of your 33 years ofexperience.
What's the one thing thatresonates with you today that
(18:57):
you either have instilled inyour son or that has changed how
you show up as a person everyday?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Well, I would think it would have to be patience.
My law enforcement career, theinstitution of law enforcement,
is slow moving to change andit's not keeping up with the
rapidly changing societalexpectations of law enforcement.
So you need to be patient inthat of law enforcement.
So you need to be patient inthat, if you have the mindset
that I do, where you want toperform not only individually
(19:26):
but as a collective professionat an optimal level, you have to
be patient in getting there andthen being a father, you need
to be patient and you need toteach patience, poison grace and
be patient.
And that's what I really strivefor and that's really the
premise behind my book.
My goal is to enlighten thereaders, have them at the end of
(19:50):
the tunnel here.
There are things that we can doto fix this thin ice that we're
standing on and hopefully thatlaw enforcement takes the
opportunity to navigate that andcontrol and dictate how these
(20:13):
changes will occur, rather thanhave them imposed on them.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Absolutely Patience.
Patience it's not what I wouldhave imagined, but I think
that's great.
It makes complete sense,starting from an experience or
an interaction that you had at ayounger age looking at
excessive force and full-fledgedin it in the trenches and
learning so much and having suchan impact on the communities
that you were able to serveduring the time that you served
(20:39):
in law enforcement.
Thank you for that and thankyou for continuing to do the
work.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, make a difference, incredible,
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I love that.
Well, we will make sure on ThinIce, will it be available on
Amazon and online bookstores?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It'll be on every platform.
You'll be able to go to BarnesNoble and buy it.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Beautiful Barnes, Noble Amazon.
We will make sure that we dropa link and we'll update the show
notes after the release inSeptember so our listeners can
get a copy of On Thin Ice, Thankyou, thank you.
Thank you, Jeff, for joining us.
If our listeners want to get intouch with you, what's the best
thing to do?
Website, email, how is the bestway that they can connect with
(21:16):
you?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Well, on social media .
You can go to Jeff Wenninger ateither Facebook or LinkedIn and
I respond to all messages Inregards to the book.
If you want to find out moreabout the book, you can go to
onthinicebookcom, and when yougo there you can get put on the
mailing list.
So you'll get a hard copysigned book, as well as other
(21:47):
gifts that are driven by thespirit of the book.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Love that.
Who doesn't love some swag?
That's awesome.
We will make sure that we addthat link on finicebookcom We'll
add that in our show notes.
Jeff, is there anything thatyou would like to leave our
listeners with that we have nothad a chance to touch on yet
today?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, no, I just.
I think it's important thateverybody, regardless of what
your, your desires or goals oraspirations are, is that you,
you always maintain your focusand be be true to yourself and
your passion and in doing that,don't get overwhelmed in regards
to ignoring the time you needto take to take care of yourself
(22:27):
, because you can only be asgood as you are at taking care
of yourself.
That's huge.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Fabulous.
I think that's a fabulous placefor us to land and end it
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for taking the timeout to join us.
Thank you for giving us insightinto your background, your
story and sharing someinformation about your book as
well Really excited to get ahold of that and start reading
it and diving in.
And thank you for sharing justyour insight with our listeners.
(22:55):
It's been really greatconversation.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Thank you for having me, it was good.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, absolutely, and you all know.
If you're looking for moreinformation on Reignite
Resilience, head on over toreigniteresiliencecom or find us
on Facebook or Instagram atReignite Resilience Podcast.
Until next time, we will seeyou all soon.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Bye everyone.
Thank you for joining us todayon the Reignite Resilience
Podcast.
We hope you had some ahamoments and learned a few new
real life ideas.
To fuel the flames of passion,please subscribe on your
favorite streaming platform,like or download your favorite
episodes and, of course, sharewith your friends and family.
(23:32):
We look forward to seeing youagain next time on Reignite
Resilience.
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