January 1, 2025 • 29 mins
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In this episode, Dr. Joe Beam answers questions listeners have submitted to the show.
We cover:
- The Valley
- Limerence
-Commitment
- & Much more
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to 2025.
I'll tell you what.
I'm Dr Joe Beam, with MarriageHelper MH International, if you
want to be technically correct.
And I never thought I wouldlive long enough to see 2025.
From my boyhood back in the, youknow, late 1800s, this is a
long way advanced, and have Iseen the world change in my
(00:23):
lifetime?
Well, obviously I wasn't bornin the late 1800s.
I was actually born at the endof the 1940s 1949 to be exact,
if you wish to know and in thetime that I have lived from then
until now, I have seen changesthat people my age are still
remarking about.
(00:43):
How did they do that?
How has that occurred?
I mean, from the time that wewent to the moon back in 1969,
actually Alice and I had justmarried and we're on a honeymoon
and watched that moon landingfrom there, and that's a big
transition all the way to theICBMs that could destroy the
(01:03):
whole world, to technologythat's amazing, so that you
might be listening to this inSri Lanka, and here I am talking
about this in Nashville,tennessee and that has been
amazing technologically speaking, but not necessarily altogether
good, because with the increaseof communication with people
(01:24):
around the world, where anybodycan talk to anybody anytime and
do it to some degree withanonymity, then some evil has
arisen in that as well.
But let's not talk about thattoday.
What we want to do today isthis I want to answer some of
those common questions that weget here at Image International
Airage Helper, if you prefer andas I go through these, let me
point out that some of thechanges we have seen, you see,
(01:47):
when I was a boy back in the1950s and yes, I know you can't
relate to that, but when I was aboy back in the 1950s, when
people gave their word, theypretty much kept it.
Now there were people that youcouldn't trust, people who would
lie, people who would con youif they could.
Those people existed, but notlike it is today, where that you
don't know who will keep his orher word and who won't, no
(02:11):
matter how good they seem to be,no matter how wonderful they
are otherwise in their lives,because of the fact that we live
in a culture now where giving aword and commitment they just
rarely exist.
And commitment, they justrarely exist.
And so in my boyhood peoplewould do a million-dollar
contract over the hood of apickup truck and just shake
(02:31):
hands and not sign any papersand each knew the other would do
what he or she would say theywould do.
And now we have peoplecommitting to be married until
death.
Do us part, which some now havechanged until as long as we
both shall love, which is areally ridiculous thing that we
(02:51):
can talk about sometime if youwish.
And now we have people inrelationship problems all over
the world, and it's facilitatedto some degree by the technology
, but a lot of it has to do withthe cultural change where
people just don't do what theysay they're going to do.
Commitment doesn't meananything other than as long as I
(03:13):
feel good about this, I'll doit.
And when I stop feeling goodabout this, rather than figuring
out how to fix it, how to makeit better, I think I'll just go
try something else.
And that's the kind of thing wedeal with every day.
So let me give you some of thequestions.
I'm going to be reading themhere.
(03:33):
I'm actually going to try toread them without my glasses, so
this might be a lot of fun.
Here's the first one.
I'm feeling taken advantage ofat this point.
It's been seven months ofin-home separation, sleeping in
different beds and her notwearing her ring.
(03:53):
I'm good enough to pay thebills and fund her shopping
trips, but I'm not good enoughto be her husband.
We get along fine, just no loveor touch.
But I'm feeling used.
How do you suggest handlingthis situation?
Stay on this path or addressthe feelings?
If you've listened to many ofthe things that we have done
(04:13):
online and YouTube and manyother places, you may be
familiar with what we call thevalley.
The valley is when a person isbetween decisions.
So let's suppose the spouse isthe this is the hill range on
one side of the valley andwhatever the other attraction is
.
The other attraction could beanother person, it could be a
(04:35):
lifestyle somebody's pursuing,it could be a dream or a fantasy
they're trying to fulfill, butin between means they haven't
totally committed to this otherthing or this other person yet
and have not totally broken allcontact with the spouse.
We call that the valley, and inthe valley a person is to some
degree indecisive and people saywell, what is your opinion, dr
(04:58):
Beam, about whether peopleshould do when their spouse is
in the valley?
Should they just end it?
Should they tolerate it?
Now, remember, when I give youa suggestion, that you have to
make the final decision.
I cannot make your finaldecision for you, and no one
else should make your finaldecision for you but you,
(05:20):
because you live with theconsequences of that decision.
We don't.
So think it through very, verycarefully.
Now, in this situation, you'redescribing a person who appears
to be living in the valley, inthe sense that she, the wife,
has not totally broken contactwith her husband.
She's sleeping in the samehouse, just not in the same bed,
and she's living off his moneyto some degree at least, at
(05:43):
least that's what he indicateshere and we don't know what this
other thing is over here.
Now, typically it's eithersomething somebody's being drawn
to If it's the valley, as amatter of fact, it has to be
it's something that somebody isdrawn to.
If they're just fleeing thissituation, it's not a valley,
they're just going away.
So the valley means there'ssomething else, some other
(06:04):
person, some situation thatthey're drawn to, rather than
the spouse.
So in this situation, based onwhat he has said, I don't know
if it's somebody that's justfleeing him but not going so far
right now because he's made itcomfortable for her to be there
or if indeed there is somethingelse.
Now, according to what he says.
He doesn't think there'ssomething else.
(06:26):
Now, if that's the case, ifthat's the case, then in the
valley we say, as long as theyare still making at least some
movement toward you, we'drecommend that you stay in the
valley for a while until theycan make up their mind.
But if they're totally movingtoward the other hillside over
here in other words, anotherperson, another thing and moving
(06:48):
further and further away fromyou, we'd say there's no use, at
least as far as I can see, instaying in the valley.
That's when you can go aheadand make some decisions about
ending things, bringing thingsto a head, et cetera.
And if he's right, and she'sjust moving away, but not so far
yet, because she likes beingable to use his money to shop
(07:10):
and it's comfortable to have aplace to live, then the question
becomes if she's not movingfurther and further and further
away because he says they'regetting along well, then what
are you going to do?
Well, if you want to bring itto a head, understand that this
is the potential downside.
(07:31):
The potential downside is thatshe will move further and faster
away because now you have upsetwhat she's doing, she's in a
comfortable situation, she cando pretty much what she wants to
do right now and you stillprovide for her and take care of
her, which means she doesn'thave to make a decision.
But if you bring it to a head,then she might feel compelled
(07:54):
that now she does have to make adecision.
And if she does that then she'sprobably going to move further
and further away from you.
You say, wait a minute, mightshe not move back toward me?
Yes, that's possible.
But the fact that she's alreadybeen moving away from you and
feels comfortable about thatindicates the likelihood that if
you bring this to a head, she'sgoing to go further from you
(08:17):
rather than back towards you.
But you're right, she mightcome back toward you.
And so if you're happy withthings like they are and just
going to live like this for thenext month, year, decade, then
leave it alone and just leave itlike it is.
But if you've had it like yousay here, you feel you're being
taken advantage of.
You feel like that you can'tlive like this.
(08:39):
This is not a comfortable thingfor you.
And you're saying I want to dosomething.
What do I do?
And then the thing you say hereis you don't talk about cutting
it off.
You don't talk about cuttingoff her money.
You don't talk about getting adivorce attorney and getting her
out of the house.
What you talk about isaddressing the feelings.
Now, after having given all thatbackground, which is probably a
(09:00):
lot more than you wanted toknow, addressing the feelings
makes sense because I don'tthink she's going to move back
towards you, at least it doesn'tappear.
Doesn't appear that she'smoving back towards you.
Therefore, doing somethingmakes sense, and if it's
addressing the feelings, thenthat makes even more sense,
because now you're notthreatening with the attorney,
(09:23):
you're not cutting off money,you're not trying to the
attorney, you're not cutting offmoney, you're not trying to do
something to harm or damage oreven make her pay for what she's
doing.
In the sense of repercussions,it's like.
May I tell you what I feel, andso I would say, in my opinion,
that's a good idea, as long asyou remember all the things I
said up front, which means that,rather than getting her to open
(09:46):
up and be transparent, and youbegin to blend the relationship
back together, which is what youwant, it may propel her further
away from you, because nowshe's thinking well, I've gotten
away with this as long as I can, and I I don't want to go back,
and now that he's bringing thisstuff up, I've got to do
something.
So do you hear it?
One possibility is it'll sendher further away faster.
(10:10):
The other possibility is atleast you can start talking to
each other, and I like the factthat you say you want to do it
by addressing your feelings.
Don't accuse her, don't attackher.
Tell her what you feel.
People are less likely tobecome defensive and fight back
when you just tell them what youfeel rather than talking about
(10:32):
what they do.
Now, that doesn't guaranteethey won't get mad and fight
back, but it decreases thelikelihood of that.
So, in my opinion and it's yourchoice, yes, and why did I give
so much information about that?
I wanted you to have a biggerpicture of it.
So go back and listen to all ofthis again, pick out all the
(10:54):
little pieces, make sure youunderstand all the nuances.
But then, if it were, I I'dtell her what I felt.
Okay, here's a second question.
I'm a bit confused and want toknow whether my spouse is in
limerence or not.
She's recently had a compulsivedesire to be friends with her
ex, who she dated 25 years ago.
(11:15):
Obviously I'm unhappy anduncomfortable about it ago.
Obviously I'm unhappy anduncomfortable about it.
He's been following him onsocial media and searching his
entire family, including hiswife.
I don't know or understand whatshe's going through.
She says she loves me, but shewants to meet him and have
coffee and catch up, sometimesover the phone or in person.
(11:37):
If he visits the city where welive, he lives in a different
city.
She said to me I don't knowwhat's happening to me.
I can't explain it.
What do you think this is?
Should I be patient or leavethe relationship after being
together for 23 years and havethree lovely kids?
That last sentence is the thingI would strongly recommend that
(11:57):
you not do.
It's not time to leave thisrelationship.
When she says I don't knowwhat's happening to me, I'm
quite convinced she's tellingyou the truth.
She doesn't know what'shappening to her.
You say well, is it limerence?
Well, technically, if she's nothad much contact with him for
25 years and she's thinking if Icould just have a phone call to
catch up, that means thatthey're not in contact and
(12:20):
dialogue with each other in anyshape or fashion right now.
If she's telling the truthabout that, then I would say
that this is, in all likelihood,not limerence.
It doesn't fit thecharacteristics of limerence.
You say then what do you thinkit is, dr Beam?
I think it's a fantasy.
I think it's a fantasy.
You see, sometimes in lifepeople get to the point where
(12:41):
it's like I thought life wouldbe different by now.
This is what I expected life tobe, what I would have, what I
have done, where I'm headed, allkinds of things, and when those
expectations are not met,people can go into an emotional
crisis.
Now, often it's referred to asa midlife crisis, but it's not
(13:04):
just in midlife.
It can happen at 25, 35, 45, 55, and any number in between.
It's because of the fact thatat some point and it can be
different for different people,and it doesn't have to happen at
midlife, and it can happen morethan once At some point people
look around and go there'ssomething missing and I don't
(13:24):
know what it is.
And what will happen often atthat time is that a fantasy will
begin to take over of.
Wow.
I remember what it was like 25years ago when I was dating
Charlie or Mary or whomever itmight have been, and it was a
different time, more idyllic Now, to some degree and I'm old
(13:45):
enough to say this.
It was a more gentle time, butnot nearly as much as we think
it was.
You see, people sometimeseither think about only the bads
and therefore their history isterrible and oh my goodness, I
never want to go back thereagain.
But there are some people whothink only about the goods, like
(14:06):
let me think about how happy wewere when that happened.
Let me think about how happy Iwas then.
This is what I came home fromschool, I did my homework and
then my boyfriend called me andwe talked for an hour on the
telephone and whatever.
And these fantasies based onthe good memories from back in
(14:27):
those times become very, verypowerful and it creates a
craving, a longing.
Now, in that sense it issimilar to limerence.
Limerence does have a cravingand longing for a particular
person that they want to be withfor the rest of their lives.
She's saying I love you.
I don't think she's craving orthinking about being with him
(14:50):
the rest of her lives, althoughthat fantasy may have occurred
and that's why she may havechecked out the wife to see if
are they happy, those kinds ofthings.
But in my opinion, notlimerence.
In my opinion, it's unfulfilledlife.
Right now she's missingsomething and she can't place
her finger on what it is, and soher mind has jumped on that
(15:14):
past, thinking, wow, if I couldjust have it like it was back.
Then you say so how do I helpher with that?
Not by leaving her.
I mean, she's confused already.
You don't want to do somethingdrastic like that.
She says she still loves you,believe that Now you can sit
down with her on occasion if sheis willing.
(15:34):
Don't push this, don't forcethis and say let's talk about
the things in life we thought.
Each of us individually thoughtthat we have not by now, not
what we thought as a couple, butwhat did you think?
What did I think?
And let's just kind of talkabout that a little bit of the
time.
10 minutes today, 15 minutesnext week.
Let's just have thatconversation every so often and,
(15:55):
as we do, let's see what it isthat we thought we would have,
that we don't.
I don't think you're going tobe able to immediately come up
with it.
It's not on the surface, it'sdeep in there somewhere, and so
it will take some degree, andone way to talk about this is
okay.
As we try to figure that out.
(16:17):
Let's tell each other storiesfrom 25 years ago or so.
Tell me stories about your lifeback then.
That will help me know who youwere.
Then I'll tell you storiesabout my life back then so you
can know who I was back then.
And it's often in the storiesthat each of you will begin to
(16:37):
get a glimpse of what's missing.
And you say how?
Because you begin to see theemotions change.
You'll begin to see her eitherget happier as she tells that
story almost rapturous or you'llbegin to see her cry, get very
sad maybe not necessarily tears,but sad and maybe tears and
even possibility sobbing.
(16:58):
No matter which reaction yousee, do not negatively react.
Be understanding, becompassionate.
Don't get jealous.
If she's missing something witha boyfriend from 25 years ago,
that has nothing to do with youdirectly.
It has something to do with hermissing something.
Now you might be thinking, butthat may mean I'm not giving her
(17:20):
something she needs, or she'snot finding something in a
relationship that she wants.
That's correct, but that'sstill not attacking you.
It's her mind trying to tellher.
This is something that I wantNow.
If you can help her discoverthat by asking questions and
listening, paying attention, notreacting negatively.
(17:41):
Don't do that.
Then there's a possibility thattogether you guys can figure
this out and then you can changecertain things about your
situation.
Because it may be that shewanted to be an adventurer and
that all it means is that youfind a greater job in Alaska and
you move there, unless youalready live in Alaska.
(18:01):
Or it may mean simply she wantsto go back to college and get a
degree in such and such thatshe never did.
It can be anything, but it'sfixating on that boyfriend from
25 years ago.
I can almost guarantee you it'snot him, it's something else
(18:22):
associated around that part ofher life, that period of her
life.
Now, if you can't figure it outtogether, then she's going to
need to see a good therapist,particularly one who is trained
in EFT emotionally focusedtherapy who can help her begin
to understand what emotionsshe's going through.
Did you hear the main point?
(18:43):
Don't leave her.
Help her, please.
And now the last question forthis particular episode.
If you're still with me andhaven't left because you're so
mad at some of the things I'vesaid so far, my reluctant spouse
has agreed very recently toattend the workshop.
You see, we at MH InternationalMarriage Help, if you prefer to
(19:05):
call us that.
We do intensive three-dayworkshops for marriages that
have troubles.
We do them in person right herein Spring Hill, tennessee,
which is just south of Nashville, and so therefore it's easy to
get to for people from anywhere.
We often have Canadians here.
We often have people believe itor not from Iceland who come to
(19:26):
our workshops here in person.
We've had people from England,china, I mean all kinds of
places, because Nashville iseasy to get to and if you come
to an in-person workshop, youactually will have a great
experience here.
Now we also do online workshopsfor people who just can't get
here, and people from all overthe world get into those online
(19:46):
workshops.
It's the same material.
It's taught the same way.
The group dynamics changes alittle bit, of course, because
it's online, but we do workshopsboth ways, both in person and
online.
I love to be in the in-personworkshops actually.
Now he goes on to say recentlyshe agreed to attend the
workshop.
We'll be attending thein-person workshop the first
(20:10):
weekend in January.
I think I'll actually be doinga portion of that workshop.
Unless something changes abouthealth or some situation like
that, I'll be doing a portion ofthat workshop, so I'll get to
meet these people, unlesssomething strongly bad happens.
I'll be doing a portion of thatworkshop.
So I'll get to meet thesepeople.
Unless something strongly badhappens, I'll be there, okay, so
we'll be attending thein-person workshop the first
(20:32):
weekend in January.
We're about three years intoour marital crisis and two and a
half years since she moved out.
I attended the in-person sololast March.
Now we have solo workshops inthe sense that, okay, my spouse
is not ready, I want to come toa workshop anyway.
We have three versions of thatOur online version both men and
(20:56):
women attend the solo workshop.
Then we have in-persons righthere in our teaching building,
right here in Spring Hill,tennessee, and we have either
men or women, but we don't mixthem in the in-person workshop.
You say, why not?
Because they're hurting people,and hurting people sometimes
(21:18):
will start ministering to eachother and that can go over
boundaries very quickly becauseof the pain.
Not because they're bad people,but because of the pain.
So in-person workshops areeither all male or all female.
As a matter of fact, I'mleading the next all male solo
workshop and it will be in March.
I'll give you information in afew minutes about how you can
(21:39):
find out about that.
I love doing the all-maleworkshops.
It's an amazing weekend for allof us.
So they're coming to one forthe couple.
They're coming to an in-personcouple workshop right here in
our teaching building, which isjust 100 feet from where I'm
recording right now.
And he says as the date drawsnearer, I find myself so very
(22:02):
grateful for marriage helper,excited to finally be to the
point of attending with myspouse, and also a bit
apprehensive all at the sametime.
If I were you, I wouldexperience all those same
emotions as well Joy, happinessand apprehension, all at the
same time.
I get it.
I understand you love thiswoman.
Now mine is a story of hope andperseverance and, although the
(22:26):
outcome is far from certain, Iknow I'm a better man for having
made the journey with the helpof Dr Joe.
Well, thank you, kimberly.
Kimberly Holmes is our CEO andshe does a great job leading us
and a wonderful marriage helperteam.
We have team members that livein Tennessee.
We have team members living allacross America.
(22:48):
We have team members living inSouth Africa and they're all
wonderful people.
I'm privileged to get to workwith them.
And he goes on to say then I'ma better man because I've gotten
to deal with all you folks toask a very broad question what
advice would you have for me asI navigate the couples workshop?
Okay, before the workshop, donothing that might be a push.
(23:12):
Now we talk about pushes asbeing those things that evoke
negative emotions in the otherperson, and so, therefore, don't
say things that you believewould probably evoke a negative
emotion in your wife.
Don't say things, don't dothings, don't talk to other
people about things.
Don't do anything that mightcome back to bite you in the
butt, in the sense that she willthink that you have done
(23:33):
something to hurt her.
Therefore, be very quiet, verycalm, very helpful if she needs
help with anything, veryunderstanding to anything that
she says, and if you have anyinteraction with her, only do
those things that evoke positiveemotions within her and don't
guess.
You should know her well enoughto know those things that do
(23:55):
and those things that don't, andbe very, very careful.
If there's something you'rethinking that might evoke a
positive emotion in her, but itmight not, then don't do it.
Just let things lie as best youcan.
Don't create any situationsbetween now and the workshop.
Now, what do you do when youcome to the workshop.
Be at peace, don't push her.
(24:16):
That was one workshop wherethis woman actually punched her
husband and said are you hearingwhat that man's saying?
Listen to him.
Oh man, it didn't go well, sodon't push her.
Don't push her one iota.
Don't say hey, why don't youtell them about this?
Or did you hear that?
(24:37):
Or what did you think aboutthis other?
As a matter of fact, what wetell people during the workshop
is this it took you a while toget into the situation that
you're in.
You're not going to fix itovernight.
Don't try.
Just come, listen, participate,be friendly with the other
people that are in the workshopand just be your best self, and
(25:01):
still don't do anything.
That's a push that's going toevoke a negative emotion within
your spouse.
The workshop is very laid backand easy.
In that sense, it's easy forpeople to be comfortable.
It's easy for people to feelsafe.
It's easy for people to listenwithout feeling they're being
pressured.
We do all of that on purpose,so don't mess that up.
(25:22):
Shared.
We knew all of that on purpose,so don't mess that up.
Just come in as relaxed as youcan be, as kind as you can be,
as gentle as you can be and letus do our work.
You don't try to do it for us.
By the way, we have workshopsregularly, both those right here
in Middle Tennessee and SpringHill, just south of Nashville.
If you fly in, you'd fly intoour airport, which is about 40
(25:44):
minutes from here, maybe on abad traffic day, and there are
plenty of good places to stayaround here, plenty of fun
places to eat around here, andif you spend an extra day or so,
go down to Nashville.
It's a tourist spot.
You'll have a blast down there.
We recommend that you staysober if you go down there, and
so Nashville is a wonderfulplace and the people that will
(26:08):
do the workshop are wonderfulpeople, because we care and
we're not going to pressureanybody.
So if you're contemplating ourworkshop, here's how you can
find out more about it and, bythe way, it won't put any
pressure on you at all.
If you go to marriagehelpercomslash call, you say what will
(26:30):
that do?
It'll give you a way to make anappointment with one of our
representatives that you cancall and talk to, and you can
ask all the questions in theworld.
They'll also ask you somequestions because we want to
know if we really can help youand they'll ask some questions
about that.
They'll be gentle, they'll beask you some questions because
we want to know if we really canhelp you and they'll ask some
questions about that.
They'll be gentle, they'll bekind and when you ask questions,
they'll tell you the truth.
Okay, and you can find out allabout our workshop and don't
(26:53):
feel that you're going to behounded to death until you come.
We teach our representatives notto be pushy.
We teach them how to understand, how to listen, how to ask
questions, and if a personreally doesn't need a workshop,
they'll ask you if you want tocome.
They're not going to hold backand they'll ask you that, hey,
we got one coming up nextweekend or whatever.
(27:14):
Would you like to come to that?
Because they really care, allof them really care.
Now, these are not counselors,these are not therapists, these
are not coaches.
And so if you think, oh, I'mgoing to call and get a free
session, like I'm talking to acounselor, no, but you can get
up to about 45 minutes ofconversation with somebody who
cares and somebody who is verywell trained.
(27:35):
It's just that he or she is nota coach, counselor.
They are people who understandfolks like you and help you know
about what we have and whetheryou want to do it or not, and
it's a free call.
All you have to do is go toMarriage Helper, marriage Helpy
or marriagehelpercom slash calland you'll get to register some
(27:58):
slot.
Now, if you do that, I ask youto remember what slot you
registered to have the call,because our folks are busy
helping people and they actuallytalk to people all over the
world and that's no exaggeration.
And so if you, if you book oneof those 45 minute slots, please
remember it and please hold itfor us so that our folks don't
(28:21):
wind up not being able to helpsomebody during that 45 minutes.
And so if you schedule it,please be there for it.
We ask you to do that if youwill, because we care about your
marriage.
I hope you care about yourmarriage and we want to be there
for you.
We have some things to talkabout here in the new year at
Relationship Radio.
(28:41):
We're happy that you were inthis episode.
Not all our episodes are goingto be like this, where I'm just
answering questions.
We're going to do a variety ofthings I think you're going to
find very interesting.
So, Dr Joe Bean, speaking forall the crew at MNH
International, I look forward toseeing you in the next episode
of Relationship Radio.
Welcome to 2025.
I'll tell you what.
I'm Dr Joe Beam, with MarriageHelper MH International, if you
want to be technically correct.
And I never thought I wouldlive long enough to see 2025.
From my boyhood back in the, youknow, late 1800s, this is a
long way advanced, and have Iseen the world change in my
(00:23):
lifetime?
Well, obviously I wasn't bornin the late 1800s.
I was actually born at the endof the 1940s 1949 to be exact,
if you wish to know and in thetime that I have lived from then
until now, I have seen changesthat people my age are still
remarking about.
(00:43):
How did they do that?
How has that occurred?
I mean, from the time that wewent to the moon back in 1969,
actually Alice and I had justmarried and we're on a honeymoon
and watched that moon landingfrom there, and that's a big
transition all the way to theICBMs that could destroy the
(01:03):
whole world, to technologythat's amazing, so that you
might be listening to this inSri Lanka, and here I am talking
about this in Nashville,tennessee and that has been
amazing technologically speaking, but not necessarily altogether
good, because with the increaseof communication with people
(01:24):
around the world, where anybodycan talk to anybody anytime and
do it to some degree withanonymity, then some evil has
arisen in that as well.
But let's not talk about thattoday.
What we want to do today isthis I want to answer some of
those common questions that weget here at Image International
Airage Helper, if you prefer andas I go through these, let me
point out that some of thechanges we have seen, you see,
(01:47):
when I was a boy back in the1950s and yes, I know you can't
relate to that, but when I was aboy back in the 1950s, when
people gave their word, theypretty much kept it.
Now there were people that youcouldn't trust, people who would
lie, people who would con youif they could.
Those people existed, but notlike it is today, where that you
don't know who will keep his orher word and who won't, no
(02:11):
matter how good they seem to be,no matter how wonderful they
are otherwise in their lives,because of the fact that we live
in a culture now where giving aword and commitment they just
rarely exist.
And commitment, they justrarely exist.
And so in my boyhood peoplewould do a million-dollar
contract over the hood of apickup truck and just shake
(02:31):
hands and not sign any papersand each knew the other would do
what he or she would say theywould do.
And now we have peoplecommitting to be married until
death.
Do us part, which some now havechanged until as long as we
both shall love, which is areally ridiculous thing that we
(02:51):
can talk about sometime if youwish.
And now we have people inrelationship problems all over
the world, and it's facilitatedto some degree by the technology
, but a lot of it has to do withthe cultural change where
people just don't do what theysay they're going to do.
Commitment doesn't meananything other than as long as I
(03:13):
feel good about this, I'll doit.
And when I stop feeling goodabout this, rather than figuring
out how to fix it, how to makeit better, I think I'll just go
try something else.
And that's the kind of thing wedeal with every day.
So let me give you some of thequestions.
I'm going to be reading themhere.
(03:33):
I'm actually going to try toread them without my glasses, so
this might be a lot of fun.
Here's the first one.
I'm feeling taken advantage ofat this point.
It's been seven months ofin-home separation, sleeping in
different beds and her notwearing her ring.
(03:53):
I'm good enough to pay thebills and fund her shopping
trips, but I'm not good enoughto be her husband.
We get along fine, just no loveor touch.
But I'm feeling used.
How do you suggest handlingthis situation?
Stay on this path or addressthe feelings?
If you've listened to many ofthe things that we have done
(04:13):
online and YouTube and manyother places, you may be
familiar with what we call thevalley.
The valley is when a person isbetween decisions.
So let's suppose the spouse isthe this is the hill range on
one side of the valley andwhatever the other attraction is
.
The other attraction could beanother person, it could be a
(04:35):
lifestyle somebody's pursuing,it could be a dream or a fantasy
they're trying to fulfill, butin between means they haven't
totally committed to this otherthing or this other person yet
and have not totally broken allcontact with the spouse.
We call that the valley, and inthe valley a person is to some
degree indecisive and people saywell, what is your opinion, dr
(04:58):
Beam, about whether peopleshould do when their spouse is
in the valley?
Should they just end it?
Should they tolerate it?
Now, remember, when I give youa suggestion, that you have to
make the final decision.
I cannot make your finaldecision for you, and no one
else should make your finaldecision for you but you,
(05:20):
because you live with theconsequences of that decision.
We don't.
So think it through very, verycarefully.
Now, in this situation, you'redescribing a person who appears
to be living in the valley, inthe sense that she, the wife,
has not totally broken contactwith her husband.
She's sleeping in the samehouse, just not in the same bed,
and she's living off his moneyto some degree at least, at
(05:43):
least that's what he indicateshere and we don't know what this
other thing is over here.
Now, typically it's eithersomething somebody's being drawn
to If it's the valley, as amatter of fact, it has to be
it's something that somebody isdrawn to.
If they're just fleeing thissituation, it's not a valley,
they're just going away.
So the valley means there'ssomething else, some other
(06:04):
person, some situation thatthey're drawn to, rather than
the spouse.
So in this situation, based onwhat he has said, I don't know
if it's somebody that's justfleeing him but not going so far
right now because he's made itcomfortable for her to be there
or if indeed there is somethingelse.
Now, according to what he says.
He doesn't think there'ssomething else.
(06:26):
Now, if that's the case, ifthat's the case, then in the
valley we say, as long as theyare still making at least some
movement toward you, we'drecommend that you stay in the
valley for a while until theycan make up their mind.
But if they're totally movingtoward the other hillside over
here in other words, anotherperson, another thing and moving
(06:48):
further and further away fromyou, we'd say there's no use, at
least as far as I can see, instaying in the valley.
That's when you can go aheadand make some decisions about
ending things, bringing thingsto a head, et cetera.
And if he's right, and she'sjust moving away, but not so far
yet, because she likes beingable to use his money to shop
(07:10):
and it's comfortable to have aplace to live, then the question
becomes if she's not movingfurther and further and further
away because he says they'regetting along well, then what
are you going to do?
Well, if you want to bring itto a head, understand that this
is the potential downside.
(07:31):
The potential downside is thatshe will move further and faster
away because now you have upsetwhat she's doing, she's in a
comfortable situation, she cando pretty much what she wants to
do right now and you stillprovide for her and take care of
her, which means she doesn'thave to make a decision.
But if you bring it to a head,then she might feel compelled
(07:54):
that now she does have to make adecision.
And if she does that then she'sprobably going to move further
and further away from you.
You say, wait a minute, mightshe not move back toward me?
Yes, that's possible.
But the fact that she's alreadybeen moving away from you and
feels comfortable about thatindicates the likelihood that if
you bring this to a head, she'sgoing to go further from you
(08:17):
rather than back towards you.
But you're right, she mightcome back toward you.
And so if you're happy withthings like they are and just
going to live like this for thenext month, year, decade, then
leave it alone and just leave itlike it is.
But if you've had it like yousay here, you feel you're being
taken advantage of.
You feel like that you can'tlive like this.
(08:39):
This is not a comfortable thingfor you.
And you're saying I want to dosomething.
What do I do?
And then the thing you say hereis you don't talk about cutting
it off.
You don't talk about cuttingoff her money.
You don't talk about getting adivorce attorney and getting her
out of the house.
What you talk about isaddressing the feelings.
Now, after having given all thatbackground, which is probably a
(09:00):
lot more than you wanted toknow, addressing the feelings
makes sense because I don'tthink she's going to move back
towards you, at least it doesn'tappear.
Doesn't appear that she'smoving back towards you.
Therefore, doing somethingmakes sense, and if it's
addressing the feelings, thenthat makes even more sense,
because now you're notthreatening with the attorney,
(09:23):
you're not cutting off money,you're not trying to the
attorney, you're not cutting offmoney, you're not trying to do
something to harm or damage oreven make her pay for what she's
doing.
In the sense of repercussions,it's like.
May I tell you what I feel, andso I would say, in my opinion,
that's a good idea, as long asyou remember all the things I
said up front, which means that,rather than getting her to open
(09:46):
up and be transparent, and youbegin to blend the relationship
back together, which is what youwant, it may propel her further
away from you, because nowshe's thinking well, I've gotten
away with this as long as I can, and I I don't want to go back,
and now that he's bringing thisstuff up, I've got to do
something.
So do you hear it?
One possibility is it'll sendher further away faster.
(10:10):
The other possibility is atleast you can start talking to
each other, and I like the factthat you say you want to do it
by addressing your feelings.
Don't accuse her, don't attackher.
Tell her what you feel.
People are less likely tobecome defensive and fight back
when you just tell them what youfeel rather than talking about
(10:32):
what they do.
Now, that doesn't guaranteethey won't get mad and fight
back, but it decreases thelikelihood of that.
So, in my opinion and it's yourchoice, yes, and why did I give
so much information about that?
I wanted you to have a biggerpicture of it.
So go back and listen to all ofthis again, pick out all the
(10:54):
little pieces, make sure youunderstand all the nuances.
But then, if it were, I I'dtell her what I felt.
Okay, here's a second question.
I'm a bit confused and want toknow whether my spouse is in
limerence or not.
She's recently had a compulsivedesire to be friends with her
ex, who she dated 25 years ago.
(11:15):
Obviously I'm unhappy anduncomfortable about it ago.
Obviously I'm unhappy anduncomfortable about it.
He's been following him onsocial media and searching his
entire family, including hiswife.
I don't know or understand whatshe's going through.
She says she loves me, but shewants to meet him and have
coffee and catch up, sometimesover the phone or in person.
(11:37):
If he visits the city where welive, he lives in a different
city.
She said to me I don't knowwhat's happening to me.
I can't explain it.
What do you think this is?
Should I be patient or leavethe relationship after being
together for 23 years and havethree lovely kids?
That last sentence is the thingI would strongly recommend that
(11:57):
you not do.
It's not time to leave thisrelationship.
When she says I don't knowwhat's happening to me, I'm
quite convinced she's tellingyou the truth.
She doesn't know what'shappening to her.
You say well, is it limerence?
Well, technically, if she's nothad much contact with him for
25 years and she's thinking if Icould just have a phone call to
catch up, that means thatthey're not in contact and
(12:20):
dialogue with each other in anyshape or fashion right now.
If she's telling the truthabout that, then I would say
that this is, in all likelihood,not limerence.
It doesn't fit thecharacteristics of limerence.
You say then what do you thinkit is, dr Beam?
I think it's a fantasy.
I think it's a fantasy.
You see, sometimes in lifepeople get to the point where
(12:41):
it's like I thought life wouldbe different by now.
This is what I expected life tobe, what I would have, what I
have done, where I'm headed, allkinds of things, and when those
expectations are not met,people can go into an emotional
crisis.
Now, often it's referred to asa midlife crisis, but it's not
(13:04):
just in midlife.
It can happen at 25, 35, 45, 55, and any number in between.
It's because of the fact thatat some point and it can be
different for different people,and it doesn't have to happen at
midlife, and it can happen morethan once At some point people
look around and go there'ssomething missing and I don't
(13:24):
know what it is.
And what will happen often atthat time is that a fantasy will
begin to take over of.
Wow.
I remember what it was like 25years ago when I was dating
Charlie or Mary or whomever itmight have been, and it was a
different time, more idyllic Now, to some degree and I'm old
(13:45):
enough to say this.
It was a more gentle time, butnot nearly as much as we think
it was.
You see, people sometimeseither think about only the bads
and therefore their history isterrible and oh my goodness, I
never want to go back thereagain.
But there are some people whothink only about the goods, like
(14:06):
let me think about how happy wewere when that happened.
Let me think about how happy Iwas then.
This is what I came home fromschool, I did my homework and
then my boyfriend called me andwe talked for an hour on the
telephone and whatever.
And these fantasies based onthe good memories from back in
(14:27):
those times become very, verypowerful and it creates a
craving, a longing.
Now, in that sense it issimilar to limerence.
Limerence does have a cravingand longing for a particular
person that they want to be withfor the rest of their lives.
She's saying I love you.
I don't think she's craving orthinking about being with him
(14:50):
the rest of her lives, althoughthat fantasy may have occurred
and that's why she may havechecked out the wife to see if
are they happy, those kinds ofthings.
But in my opinion, notlimerence.
In my opinion, it's unfulfilledlife.
Right now she's missingsomething and she can't place
her finger on what it is, and soher mind has jumped on that
(15:14):
past, thinking, wow, if I couldjust have it like it was back.
Then you say so how do I helpher with that?
Not by leaving her.
I mean, she's confused already.
You don't want to do somethingdrastic like that.
She says she still loves you,believe that Now you can sit
down with her on occasion if sheis willing.
(15:34):
Don't push this, don't forcethis and say let's talk about
the things in life we thought.
Each of us individually thoughtthat we have not by now, not
what we thought as a couple, butwhat did you think?
What did I think?
And let's just kind of talkabout that a little bit of the
time.
10 minutes today, 15 minutesnext week.
Let's just have thatconversation every so often and,
(15:55):
as we do, let's see what it isthat we thought we would have,
that we don't.
I don't think you're going tobe able to immediately come up
with it.
It's not on the surface, it'sdeep in there somewhere, and so
it will take some degree, andone way to talk about this is
okay.
As we try to figure that out.
(16:17):
Let's tell each other storiesfrom 25 years ago or so.
Tell me stories about your lifeback then.
That will help me know who youwere.
Then I'll tell you storiesabout my life back then so you
can know who I was back then.
And it's often in the storiesthat each of you will begin to
(16:37):
get a glimpse of what's missing.
And you say how?
Because you begin to see theemotions change.
You'll begin to see her eitherget happier as she tells that
story almost rapturous or you'llbegin to see her cry, get very
sad maybe not necessarily tears,but sad and maybe tears and
even possibility sobbing.
(16:58):
No matter which reaction yousee, do not negatively react.
Be understanding, becompassionate.
Don't get jealous.
If she's missing something witha boyfriend from 25 years ago,
that has nothing to do with youdirectly.
It has something to do with hermissing something.
Now you might be thinking, butthat may mean I'm not giving her
(17:20):
something she needs, or she'snot finding something in a
relationship that she wants.
That's correct, but that'sstill not attacking you.
It's her mind trying to tellher.
This is something that I wantNow.
If you can help her discoverthat by asking questions and
listening, paying attention, notreacting negatively.
(17:41):
Don't do that.
Then there's a possibility thattogether you guys can figure
this out and then you can changecertain things about your
situation.
Because it may be that shewanted to be an adventurer and
that all it means is that youfind a greater job in Alaska and
you move there, unless youalready live in Alaska.
(18:01):
Or it may mean simply she wantsto go back to college and get a
degree in such and such thatshe never did.
It can be anything, but it'sfixating on that boyfriend from
25 years ago.
I can almost guarantee you it'snot him, it's something else
(18:22):
associated around that part ofher life, that period of her
life.
Now, if you can't figure it outtogether, then she's going to
need to see a good therapist,particularly one who is trained
in EFT emotionally focusedtherapy who can help her begin
to understand what emotionsshe's going through.
Did you hear the main point?
(18:43):
Don't leave her.
Help her, please.
And now the last question forthis particular episode.
If you're still with me andhaven't left because you're so
mad at some of the things I'vesaid so far, my reluctant spouse
has agreed very recently toattend the workshop.
You see, we at MH InternationalMarriage Help, if you prefer to
(19:05):
call us that.
We do intensive three-dayworkshops for marriages that
have troubles.
We do them in person right herein Spring Hill, tennessee,
which is just south of Nashville, and so therefore it's easy to
get to for people from anywhere.
We often have Canadians here.
We often have people believe itor not from Iceland who come to
(19:26):
our workshops here in person.
We've had people from England,china, I mean all kinds of
places, because Nashville iseasy to get to and if you come
to an in-person workshop, youactually will have a great
experience here.
Now we also do online workshopsfor people who just can't get
here, and people from all overthe world get into those online
(19:46):
workshops.
It's the same material.
It's taught the same way.
The group dynamics changes alittle bit, of course, because
it's online, but we do workshopsboth ways, both in person and
online.
I love to be in the in-personworkshops actually.
Now he goes on to say recentlyshe agreed to attend the
workshop.
We'll be attending thein-person workshop the first
(20:10):
weekend in January.
I think I'll actually be doinga portion of that workshop.
Unless something changes abouthealth or some situation like
that, I'll be doing a portion ofthat workshop, so I'll get to
meet these people, unlesssomething strongly bad happens.
I'll be doing a portion of thatworkshop.
So I'll get to meet thesepeople.
Unless something strongly badhappens, I'll be there, okay, so
we'll be attending thein-person workshop the first
(20:32):
weekend in January.
We're about three years intoour marital crisis and two and a
half years since she moved out.
I attended the in-person sololast March.
Now we have solo workshops inthe sense that, okay, my spouse
is not ready, I want to come toa workshop anyway.
We have three versions of thatOur online version both men and
(20:56):
women attend the solo workshop.
Then we have in-persons righthere in our teaching building,
right here in Spring Hill,tennessee, and we have either
men or women, but we don't mixthem in the in-person workshop.
You say, why not?
Because they're hurting people,and hurting people sometimes
(21:18):
will start ministering to eachother and that can go over
boundaries very quickly becauseof the pain.
Not because they're bad people,but because of the pain.
So in-person workshops areeither all male or all female.
As a matter of fact, I'mleading the next all male solo
workshop and it will be in March.
I'll give you information in afew minutes about how you can
(21:39):
find out about that.
I love doing the all-maleworkshops.
It's an amazing weekend for allof us.
So they're coming to one forthe couple.
They're coming to an in-personcouple workshop right here in
our teaching building, which isjust 100 feet from where I'm
recording right now.
And he says as the date drawsnearer, I find myself so very
(22:02):
grateful for marriage helper,excited to finally be to the
point of attending with myspouse, and also a bit
apprehensive all at the sametime.
If I were you, I wouldexperience all those same
emotions as well Joy, happinessand apprehension, all at the
same time.
I get it.
I understand you love thiswoman.
Now mine is a story of hope andperseverance and, although the
(22:26):
outcome is far from certain, Iknow I'm a better man for having
made the journey with the helpof Dr Joe.
Well, thank you, kimberly.
Kimberly Holmes is our CEO andshe does a great job leading us
and a wonderful marriage helperteam.
We have team members that livein Tennessee.
We have team members living allacross America.
(22:48):
We have team members living inSouth Africa and they're all
wonderful people.
I'm privileged to get to workwith them.
And he goes on to say then I'ma better man because I've gotten
to deal with all you folks toask a very broad question what
advice would you have for me asI navigate the couples workshop?
Okay, before the workshop, donothing that might be a push.
(23:12):
Now we talk about pushes asbeing those things that evoke
negative emotions in the otherperson, and so, therefore, don't
say things that you believewould probably evoke a negative
emotion in your wife.
Don't say things, don't dothings, don't talk to other
people about things.
Don't do anything that mightcome back to bite you in the
butt, in the sense that she willthink that you have done
(23:33):
something to hurt her.
Therefore, be very quiet, verycalm, very helpful if she needs
help with anything, veryunderstanding to anything that
she says, and if you have anyinteraction with her, only do
those things that evoke positiveemotions within her and don't
guess.
You should know her well enoughto know those things that do
(23:55):
and those things that don't, andbe very, very careful.
If there's something you'rethinking that might evoke a
positive emotion in her, but itmight not, then don't do it.
Just let things lie as best youcan.
Don't create any situationsbetween now and the workshop.
Now, what do you do when youcome to the workshop.
Be at peace, don't push her.
(24:16):
That was one workshop wherethis woman actually punched her
husband and said are you hearingwhat that man's saying?
Listen to him.
Oh man, it didn't go well, sodon't push her.
Don't push her one iota.
Don't say hey, why don't youtell them about this?
Or did you hear that?
(24:37):
Or what did you think aboutthis other?
As a matter of fact, what wetell people during the workshop
is this it took you a while toget into the situation that
you're in.
You're not going to fix itovernight.
Don't try.
Just come, listen, participate,be friendly with the other
people that are in the workshopand just be your best self, and
(25:01):
still don't do anything.
That's a push that's going toevoke a negative emotion within
your spouse.
The workshop is very laid backand easy.
In that sense, it's easy forpeople to be comfortable.
It's easy for people to feelsafe.
It's easy for people to listenwithout feeling they're being
pressured.
We do all of that on purpose,so don't mess that up.
(25:22):
Shared.
We knew all of that on purpose,so don't mess that up.
Just come in as relaxed as youcan be, as kind as you can be,
as gentle as you can be and letus do our work.
You don't try to do it for us.
By the way, we have workshopsregularly, both those right here
in Middle Tennessee and SpringHill, just south of Nashville.
If you fly in, you'd fly intoour airport, which is about 40
(25:44):
minutes from here, maybe on abad traffic day, and there are
plenty of good places to stayaround here, plenty of fun
places to eat around here, andif you spend an extra day or so,
go down to Nashville.
It's a tourist spot.
You'll have a blast down there.
We recommend that you staysober if you go down there, and
so Nashville is a wonderfulplace and the people that will
(26:08):
do the workshop are wonderfulpeople, because we care and
we're not going to pressureanybody.
So if you're contemplating ourworkshop, here's how you can
find out more about it and, bythe way, it won't put any
pressure on you at all.
If you go to marriagehelpercomslash call, you say what will
(26:30):
that do?
It'll give you a way to make anappointment with one of our
representatives that you cancall and talk to, and you can
ask all the questions in theworld.
They'll also ask you somequestions because we want to
know if we really can help youand they'll ask some questions
about that.
They'll be gentle, they'll beask you some questions because
we want to know if we really canhelp you and they'll ask some
questions about that.
They'll be gentle, they'll bekind and when you ask questions,
they'll tell you the truth.
Okay, and you can find out allabout our workshop and don't
(26:53):
feel that you're going to behounded to death until you come.
We teach our representatives notto be pushy.
We teach them how to understand, how to listen, how to ask
questions, and if a personreally doesn't need a workshop,
they'll ask you if you want tocome.
They're not going to hold backand they'll ask you that, hey,
we got one coming up nextweekend or whatever.
(27:14):
Would you like to come to that?
Because they really care, allof them really care.
Now, these are not counselors,these are not therapists, these
are not coaches.
And so if you think, oh, I'mgoing to call and get a free
session, like I'm talking to acounselor, no, but you can get
up to about 45 minutes ofconversation with somebody who
cares and somebody who is verywell trained.
(27:35):
It's just that he or she is nota coach, counselor.
They are people who understandfolks like you and help you know
about what we have and whetheryou want to do it or not, and
it's a free call.
All you have to do is go toMarriage Helper, marriage Helpy
or marriagehelpercom slash calland you'll get to register some
(27:58):
slot.
Now, if you do that, I ask youto remember what slot you
registered to have the call,because our folks are busy
helping people and they actuallytalk to people all over the
world and that's no exaggeration.
And so if you, if you book oneof those 45 minute slots, please
remember it and please hold itfor us so that our folks don't
(28:21):
wind up not being able to helpsomebody during that 45 minutes.
And so if you schedule it,please be there for it.
We ask you to do that if youwill, because we care about your
marriage.
I hope you care about yourmarriage and we want to be there
for you.
We have some things to talkabout here in the new year at
Relationship Radio.
(28:41):
We're happy that you were inthis episode.
Not all our episodes are goingto be like this, where I'm just
answering questions.
We're going to do a variety ofthings I think you're going to
find very interesting.
So, Dr Joe Bean, speaking forall the crew at MNH
International, I look forward toseeing you in the next episode
of Relationship Radio.
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