May 7, 2025 • 19 mins
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What happens when a well-meaning husband provides, protects, and leads—yet still finds himself blindsided by his wife's decision to walk away? In this powerful episode, Dr. Joe Beam and Nathan McIntyre unpack a real-life story of a man who thought he was doing everything “right” in his marriage… until it all fell apart.
You'll hear:
✔ Why many spouses feel emotionally abandoned even when their physical needs are met
✔ How "doing the right thing" can still create emotional distance
✔ What pushes and pulls are—and how they impact your relationship
✔ The silent warning signs your spouse may be reaching their limit
If you’ve ever wondered “Why did my spouse leave when I was giving so much?” - this episode is for you. Nathan shares practical insights from hundreds of conversations with men and women in marriage crisis, and offers real hope for those ready to change, reconnect, and rebuild.
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You might be wondering sometimes what is it
at Marriage Helper that peoplewant to come and get your help
and yet other people who needyour help may decide not to, for
whatever reason.
Or it may be that you yourself,on occasion, have thought I
really would like to get thehelp I need for my marriage, but
I have this obstacle, thatproblem, that difficulty.
(00:20):
Well, we hear about thosethings every day.
I want to give you a couple ofstories, not from me, but from
my friend I have with me today.
This is Nathan McIntyre.
Nathan talks to people on thephone pretty much 36 hours a day
, about 72 hours a day, yeah,and these are people that call
in and really need help fortheir marriages, and he listens
(00:41):
to get their information, theirstories, and I want him to tell
a couple Now a couple of thingshere On this episode.
As we talk about that, we willdisguise personalities,
identities, because when we tellstories about people, we're
careful to make sure that you,nor they, nor anybody else, can
know exactly who we're talkingabout, and so some of the facts
will get modified a little bit,but the truths are absolutely
(01:05):
true, and so let's talk about itNow.
Let's talk about a guy, forexample.
So you have a husband that hascalled you and you can tell that
he needs help for his marriage.
Give me an idea about how aconversation went.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Of course, disguise a little bit how a conversation
went.
Yeah, I'm reminded of aconversation recently with
someone, a firefighter, okay,okay, and you know, just really
engaging person, super guy,right, you could talk to him
very easily, greatconversationalist, really quick
(01:39):
to it, very, you know, bulletedwhen you talk, just
da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
So what was his difficulty?
Well, his wife had left.
She's gone out the door.
Is she with another guy?
Yeah, with another man,blindsided with someone that she
?
He was blindsided with someonethat she had met from work.
Okay, and he was calling tobasically try and figure out
(02:02):
what happened, what to do, howcould she do this?
He was having a really hardtime just emoting.
You know, emoting meaning whatMeaning?
You could tell that he wasn'tnecessarily enjoying processing
outwardly how he felt, so he wasin pain.
He didn't say this, but if hecould have just came out and
said Nathan, will you please fixthis, I've got other things to
(02:23):
do.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I say, okay Now, unless I'm going to mess up the
flow here, yeah, how is heblindsided?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, that's interesting.
You'd be amazed how many peoplethat I talked to that are
blindsided by problems thatthey've been experiencing for 25
years.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So he shouldn't have been blindsided.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, I explored that with him for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
As I'd love to hear about that.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, asking a lot of questions.
And you know, without goinginto details, because we always
want to protect identity and westarted asking about what it was
like.
You know, just kind of thestory of their marriage, and the
first thing that I identifiedvery quickly and very clearly
was that he obviously adored hiswife.
Okay, he truly did.
He's a great guy, great heart.
I very rarely meet bad peopleon these calls.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, so most of the people you talk to on the phone
actually are good people, evenif they've done bad things.
Yeah, yeah, even if they're badmesses.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, good people that are train wrecks, that's
okay.
You know beautiful train wrecks?
No, they're absolutelygood-hearted people and he was
one of those good-hearted people, okay, but he would say subtle
comments over time, things about.
Well, I've worked hard, I'vedone this.
This is something I did.
I've given her this, I providedthis.
(03:31):
You know, I made sure that Ifulfilled all my duties.
Everything was in terms of thethings that he expected a man to
do.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Okay, were these like giving her necessities or
giving her beyond?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
A great home.
Beyond that, you know, make hercomfortable.
He referred to what little shehad to do in terms of employment
, outside employment, all ofthose things.
Okay, he in his mind, he wasdoing what we would, you know,
some would consider like atraditional husband role in
providing for his wife, right,okay?
And then, over time, he saidand I did this, and I told her
(04:05):
that this is what I was going todo, and I told her this.
And then I started hearing thephrases I told her this and all
she had to do was this and shehad to do this.
And I told her that and she didthis.
And can you believe she left me.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
And so what were you inferring from that, with your
great alacrity of mind?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
well, yeah, I I appreciate your poor judgment um
the um.
I was beginning to think howdoes this wife feel throughout
this?
now the once again he's a greatguy with a great heart but I
(04:47):
asked him, you know, because youcan't tell people these things.
I asked him.
I said were you trulyblindsided by this?
He said what do you mean?
I said, well, is it possiblethat because he's a person with
great authority right In hisdaily life and he referred to
(05:08):
his home running efficiently andall of these he you know?
Basically, you could have justreferred to it as his day job.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay.
So he was, like a matter offact, kind of guy boom, boom
boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
tasks, kpis, let's get it done.
I said is it possible that,with just the things that you
gave to your wife to getaccomplished, the things that
you told her that needed to bedone in return of the things
that you done, you deliveredthese?
Now she needs to deliver this.
Is it possible that she didn'tleave you, she just quit her job
.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Now help me understand what you were
thinking when you said that.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
In my mind, you know we talk a lot about pushes and
pulls my mind, you know we talka lot about pushes and pulls,
and a push, as we define it here, is anything that you do,
intentionally or unintentionally, that causes a negative
reaction in your spouse right,especially a negative emotional
emotion.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, a negative emotional reaction correct.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Thank you for that.
And I keep thinking of how thewife would respond if she's
never asked anything but told.
And there are these assumptionsof what she needs and what I
need to do and what I'm expectedto do and what I'm going to do
and what she needs to do inreturn.
And I'm giving her this.
Therefore, she needs to do this, this and this.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Almost like the military is saying Completely
transactional, okay, right,here's the sergeant telling you
what you need, right, and whatyou're going to do Therefore.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So what's the difference between that and an
employment contract?
Did he see that he did?
It was a really cool moment.
How did he react?
What did he say?
He dropped a couple four-letterwords Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We'll leave those off the air.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
But it was an introspective moment where he
realized he had a choice to make, because what I love about
people like this and it's notjust a male thing, it's men or
women who are very task-orientedand driven he realized that his
next thing to accomplish, hisnext task, was now changing his
mindset and turning those pushesinto pulls.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
All right, so let me kind of veer off to the side and
tell you if this is going tomess up the story.
Did you get any kind of ideawhat type of personality she
might have based on what he saidabout her?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Based upon his, you know, are we talking in terms of
the disc profile?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, like was she a completer, in the sense that she
just didn't fight back, shejust took it, took it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
She was very.
She came across now once again,this is anecdotal.
You know through how I'mdiscovering her?
Through him, gotcha, okay, I'mqualified to diagnose.
Discovering her through him,gotcha, okay, um, I'm qualified
to diagnose no one with anything, okay, um, but uh, I
experienced her as someone who'svery avoidant, uh, um, who has
(07:57):
a muscle memory of being verycompliant.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And so if he says you're going to get this, you're
going to do that.
She just accepts, even if shedoesn't want it.
Correct?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
But over time, everyone reaches their limit.
And what do you mean by limit?
There's a case, there's a pointat which everyone in my
experience, when I speak withany of these clients, any number
of clients, I find that there'sa point at which everyone says
I'm worth something.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So you're telling me that if a person is being given
all kinds of things that theydon't ask for, they don't work
for, they just keep coming, thatit actually negatively affects
their sense of self-worth?
It can, and in this particularcase you believe that it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I believe in this case, I believe in this case he
was answering questions that shewasn't asking.
He was addressing needs thatshe didn't have asking he was
addressing needs that she didn'thave it was is.
I mean, I asked this gentlemanis it possible that all of these
things that you're trying tofulfill are things that she all,
that she had no need for, when,in fact, she didn't need
(09:04):
somebody to shower her withgifts and a lavish home.
She would rather have someonethat looked at her as a partner
and not an employee.
She just wanted to be a partner, she wanted to be equal, she
wanted to be liked, loved andrespected, and eventually that
broke.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So since there was somebody else involved, you said
earlier, apparently somebodycame into her life that
fulfilled those needs.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Typically in these experiences, it's always wrong
person, wrong time and and needmeets opportunity, um.
I'm not condoning it at all,obviously, just trying to
understand.
I'm just trying to understandit, um, and and I tell all of my
clients, all of them, when I'm,when I'm challenging them like
(09:52):
this on on the phone, I'm neverexcusing what your spouse did
Just look like.
I believe that you'reresponsible for your actions and
what you do to address the need.
They are also responsible fortheir actions in in causing
those, those problems, um, thatneed and those issues are on are
on her.
In this case it was.
(10:12):
It was wrong person, wrong time, exact, right match in the
worst possible way.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Okay, now I want to ask you a couple of more
questions about that, but I wantto make sure you guys
understand Nathan is anextremely intelligent person.
Just understand that.
He really is very, very smart.
But he wasn't doing counseling,he wasn't doing therapy, he
wasn't doing coaching.
What he was doing was trying tounderstand the problem so he
could guide this gentleman andhis wife, hopefully, to the
(10:39):
right thing that we can helpthem with.
And I guess, if we don't haveit, somebody else could help
them with this.
And so, as you were guiding him, what did you recommend to him
and how did he respond to that?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Now, in this case, based upon what he told me,
especially about her mindset, asI'm talking about their amount
of communication, they were incommunication, it was very
factual, it was very tenuous,but it was very, you know.
But it happened.
It's not like she went nocontact and she's run off to
Tahiti, right.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I'd like to run off to Tahiti.
You know what I'm in.
Let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We'll jump on your private jet yeah.
When I get it Exactly the inthis case, because he had a lot
of rewiring that he needed to doto be able to understand how to
approach her in a way that wasgoing to turn those pushes that
he was committing into pulls.
Help her to feel like she couldapproach him.
Because, think about it, ifyou're this, if you're this wife
(11:37):
right, and your, yourexperience of your partner for
the multiple decades has been,that person doesn't look at me
as equal.
That person does not listen tome.
He's my dad, he's my boss, mydad, I'm not safe.
Got it Right.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
So that's that spouse's experience, and so what
you're saying is that, nomatter how, many things are
given you?
How is his money, jewels,whatever, unless you feel
understood that, that thosethings are not enough?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Right, you have to make.
You do have it it.
There is a part of yourselfthat needs to be able to know
how to express your needs.
Yes, so you're not blaming itall on him?
No, of course not.
It's not all his fault.
It's always 50-50.
There's always halfway.
There's always a place thatboth have responsibility.
But in this case, she had notexpressed her need.
(12:31):
Maybe she didn't understand itpartially.
Is there a possibility?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
that maybe she did, but she did it so meekly he
didn't get it.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
In many cases when I deal with my avoidant clients,
that's very likely, you know,and their muscle memory says
even why try now, he's not goingto listen again.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Okay, Explain to me a non-athlete what muscle memory
is.
It's you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, explain to me a non-athlete what muscle memory
is.
It's that phrase of after awhile you just get in the habit
of If you've been not listenedto for so long, then after a
while you're just not going totalk.
Okay, so it's more of a defensemechanism where why try again
when I'm going to bedisappointed again?
That makes a lot of sense.
So what did you recommend tothe guy?
I recommended for him in thiscase, because we had a lot of
(13:14):
work to do that he enroll in thesolo program, our solo spouse
workshop program, because inthat program the first thing
that we need to do is to be ableto help him partner with our
coaching team and with our staffand our workshop to be able to
start working on the behaviorsthat helped him to misunderstand
what she's looking for.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Okay, and we have two different kinds of solo
programs.
I'm going to ask you which oneOne is we do online, and that's
both men and women.
We don't put mixed genders inthe same room for three days
because of the pain and thetemptations that could create.
So were you recommending theonline, where they're both males
and females, or were yourecommending the in-person we do
(13:53):
here, where it's just men?
In his case, which one do youthink was the better rate?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
In this case, I believe the in-person men's was
better for him, and only becausepartial part of it was gut I've
done this a lot and part of itwas just gut feeling.
Now, in terms of the quality ofprogram, they're the same.
We execute both very well.
But I believe that with aperson of that personality type,
(14:18):
having that camaraderie, havingthat in-person brotherhood,
that when you have one person,one gender in the room, there is
that ability to be able to getreal.
You've walked away from yourwork.
That's a huge thing If work hasdominated somebody's life for
so long.
To get away from the office, toget away from home, to go to a
(14:40):
new place in a strange placewith new people, it's a huge
deal.
You're in a new paradigm.
So in his case, I recommendedthe in-person.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, so what about the fact ifyou decided to go to the solo
with the women to get the femaleperspective, do you think that
he would have gained as muchthere, or do you think it still
should be the men only?
Well, there's benefits to both,for sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
For sure.
And there's also the practicalnature of look, if you just
can't travel here and you needhelp sooner than later in this
case, then absolutely.
If he looks at me and says it'snot possible, I need help now,
then let's go, let's do this.
There is a benefit to that.
I don't think it certainlywould have hurt the situation.
I made solely that decision forhim based on what I thought the
(15:26):
atmosphere would be a hugebenefit for him.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I see that and in our men's only workshop, which we
do in person, people actuallycome to Middle Tennessee and
these men are in a room togetherfor three days.
They don't sleep together inthe same room.
They have their hotel rooms, butthey're in a room together for
three days.
Yeah, it's not camp, it's notcamp, but the men get very
honest with each other, like youmight hear one say the other,
(15:51):
which you would typically nothear in the mixed gender Right,
and certainly probably not inthe couples workshop, which is
also outstanding.
Each has its own need, but themen sometimes will.
One man will look at the otherand say you realize you're being
an absolute jerk, don't you?
And it works because they'veall become buddies and friends.
It's not their animosity, right.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So it sounds to me like you made the right
suggestion.
So what did he say?
He's on his way, wonderful.
Yeah, I'm proud of him, Ireally am, because, um,
oftentimes, in this situation,especially with my high drivers,
um, your biggest obstacle tochange is yourself.
Uh, because, when you have to,when you, when you look yourself
face to face in the mirror andyou realize that, uh, that the
only reason that my life is ashambles is because I did it,
then there is a part ofresponsibility that comes with,
(16:41):
or there's a humility that comeswith, taking responsibility for
your actions.
And many, many times that isthat it comes with that dark
night of the soul which we justhave to face and realize that
sometimes I've just got to suckit up, buttercup and go.
You know, and I'm proud of him,I really, really am, cause it
was a big decision, you could.
(17:02):
You could hear the wheels.
You know, sometimes we joke, wehear the wheels turning.
You could hear the wheelsgrinding in his mind, um, but it
was really really powerful.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, Nathan, the way you dealt with this man, I
think, was very good.
There are several people in ourorganization, such as you, that
actually talk to people andhelp them with this, and so if
somebody out there, a man or awoman and you've got stories
about women as well, we'll dosome more of those later.
Sure, and you've got storiesabout couples.
We'll talk about some of thoselater, but right now, if they
(17:33):
wanted to talk to you orsomebody like you in our
organization, the way they dothat is the easiest way to do it
is just to jump online and goto marriagehelpercom slash call
and that's slash C-A-L-L.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
Fill out a little bit ofinformation, just so we can know
how to contact you, and amember of our team will reach
out, have a quick conversation,be able to make sure that what
we do lines up with what youneed, and we go from there.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now do they get a chance to pick whom, Because we
have both males and females, orit's just whoever's next in the
queue?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right.
Well, in this case, we have ateam of men and women that'll be
reaching out first and we cango from there based on scenario.
If there are some very specificneeds, then we can always
explore that.
Typically speaking, though,those needs aren't necessarily
when it comes to what I do,those needs aren't something
that necessarily needs to becomeaddressed, but we can always go
(18:30):
from there.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
If there's something very acute, then obviously we
want to take care of our people,so we can do that for sure,
okay, so if I'm understandingthis correctly, there's a first
level of somebody who will callthem back for an assessment and
then get them to you guys.
Correct, okay, and it's all notabout selling.
It's about helping you find theright thing to help you with
your specific problem, to helpyou with your specific problem.
(18:50):
Now, hopefully, as you listento Nathan on this, you
understand that from the veryget-go, the people you talked to
to begin with, before you getinto our programs whether it's a
workshop, membership, whateverit might be that these are folks
who genuinely care.
They've been very well-trainedand will do everything they can
to understand you and to helpguide you to what we can do for
you.
(19:10):
Now, next time, I want you totell me about somebody who
decided not to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Got some stories.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Okay, and thank you for being with us.
You might be wondering sometimes what is it
at Marriage Helper that peoplewant to come and get your help
and yet other people who needyour help may decide not to, for
whatever reason.
Or it may be that you yourself,on occasion, have thought I
really would like to get thehelp I need for my marriage, but
I have this obstacle, thatproblem, that difficulty.
(00:20):
Well, we hear about thosethings every day.
I want to give you a couple ofstories, not from me, but from
my friend I have with me today.
This is Nathan McIntyre.
Nathan talks to people on thephone pretty much 36 hours a day
, about 72 hours a day, yeah,and these are people that call
in and really need help fortheir marriages, and he listens
(00:41):
to get their information, theirstories, and I want him to tell
a couple Now a couple of thingshere On this episode.
As we talk about that, we willdisguise personalities,
identities, because when we tellstories about people, we're
careful to make sure that you,nor they, nor anybody else, can
know exactly who we're talkingabout, and so some of the facts
will get modified a little bit,but the truths are absolutely
(01:05):
true, and so let's talk about itNow.
Let's talk about a guy, forexample.
So you have a husband that hascalled you and you can tell that
he needs help for his marriage.
Give me an idea about how aconversation went.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Of course, disguise a little bit how a conversation
went.
Yeah, I'm reminded of aconversation recently with
someone, a firefighter, okay,okay, and you know, just really
engaging person, super guy,right, you could talk to him
very easily, greatconversationalist, really quick
(01:39):
to it, very, you know, bulletedwhen you talk, just
da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
So what was his difficulty?
Well, his wife had left.
She's gone out the door.
Is she with another guy?
Yeah, with another man,blindsided with someone that she
?
He was blindsided with someonethat she had met from work.
Okay, and he was calling tobasically try and figure out
(02:02):
what happened, what to do, howcould she do this?
He was having a really hardtime just emoting.
You know, emoting meaning whatMeaning?
You could tell that he wasn'tnecessarily enjoying processing
outwardly how he felt, so he wasin pain.
He didn't say this, but if hecould have just came out and
said Nathan, will you please fixthis, I've got other things to
(02:23):
do.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I say, okay Now, unless I'm going to mess up the
flow here, yeah, how is heblindsided?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, that's interesting.
You'd be amazed how many peoplethat I talked to that are
blindsided by problems thatthey've been experiencing for 25
years.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So he shouldn't have been blindsided.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, I explored that with him for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
As I'd love to hear about that.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, asking a lot of questions.
And you know, without goinginto details, because we always
want to protect identity and westarted asking about what it was
like.
You know, just kind of thestory of their marriage, and the
first thing that I identifiedvery quickly and very clearly
was that he obviously adored hiswife.
Okay, he truly did.
He's a great guy, great heart.
I very rarely meet bad peopleon these calls.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, so most of the people you talk to on the phone
actually are good people, evenif they've done bad things.
Yeah, yeah, even if they're badmesses.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, good people that are train wrecks, that's
okay.
You know beautiful train wrecks?
No, they're absolutelygood-hearted people and he was
one of those good-hearted people, okay, but he would say subtle
comments over time, things about.
Well, I've worked hard, I'vedone this.
This is something I did.
I've given her this, I providedthis.
(03:31):
You know, I made sure that Ifulfilled all my duties.
Everything was in terms of thethings that he expected a man to
do.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Okay, were these like giving her necessities or
giving her beyond?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
A great home.
Beyond that, you know, make hercomfortable.
He referred to what little shehad to do in terms of employment
, outside employment, all ofthose things.
Okay, he in his mind, he wasdoing what we would, you know,
some would consider like atraditional husband role in
providing for his wife, right,okay?
And then, over time, he saidand I did this, and I told her
(04:05):
that this is what I was going todo, and I told her this.
And then I started hearing thephrases I told her this and all
she had to do was this and shehad to do this.
And I told her that and she didthis.
And can you believe she left me.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
And so what were you inferring from that, with your
great alacrity of mind?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
well, yeah, I I appreciate your poor judgment um
the um.
I was beginning to think howdoes this wife feel throughout
this?
now the once again he's a greatguy with a great heart but I
(04:47):
asked him, you know, because youcan't tell people these things.
I asked him.
I said were you trulyblindsided by this?
He said what do you mean?
I said, well, is it possiblethat because he's a person with
great authority right In hisdaily life and he referred to
(05:08):
his home running efficiently andall of these he you know?
Basically, you could have justreferred to it as his day job.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay.
So he was, like a matter offact, kind of guy boom, boom
boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
tasks, kpis, let's get it done.
I said is it possible that,with just the things that you
gave to your wife to getaccomplished, the things that
you told her that needed to bedone in return of the things
that you done, you deliveredthese?
Now she needs to deliver this.
Is it possible that she didn'tleave you, she just quit her job
.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Now help me understand what you were
thinking when you said that.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
In my mind, you know we talk a lot about pushes and
pulls my mind, you know we talka lot about pushes and pulls,
and a push, as we define it here, is anything that you do,
intentionally or unintentionally, that causes a negative
reaction in your spouse right,especially a negative emotional
emotion.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, a negative emotional reaction correct.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Thank you for that.
And I keep thinking of how thewife would respond if she's
never asked anything but told.
And there are these assumptionsof what she needs and what I
need to do and what I'm expectedto do and what I'm going to do
and what she needs to do inreturn.
And I'm giving her this.
Therefore, she needs to do this, this and this.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Almost like the military is saying Completely
transactional, okay, right,here's the sergeant telling you
what you need, right, and whatyou're going to do Therefore.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So what's the difference between that and an
employment contract?
Did he see that he did?
It was a really cool moment.
How did he react?
What did he say?
He dropped a couple four-letterwords Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We'll leave those off the air.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
But it was an introspective moment where he
realized he had a choice to make, because what I love about
people like this and it's notjust a male thing, it's men or
women who are very task-orientedand driven he realized that his
next thing to accomplish, hisnext task, was now changing his
mindset and turning those pushesinto pulls.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
All right, so let me kind of veer off to the side and
tell you if this is going tomess up the story.
Did you get any kind of ideawhat type of personality she
might have based on what he saidabout her?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Based upon his, you know, are we talking in terms of
the disc profile?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, like was she a completer, in the sense that she
just didn't fight back, shejust took it, took it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
She was very.
She came across now once again,this is anecdotal.
You know through how I'mdiscovering her?
Through him, gotcha, okay, I'mqualified to diagnose.
Discovering her through him,gotcha, okay, um, I'm qualified
to diagnose no one with anything, okay, um, but uh, I
experienced her as someone who'svery avoidant, uh, um, who has
(07:57):
a muscle memory of being verycompliant.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And so if he says you're going to get this, you're
going to do that.
She just accepts, even if shedoesn't want it.
Correct?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
But over time, everyone reaches their limit.
And what do you mean by limit?
There's a case, there's a pointat which everyone in my
experience, when I speak withany of these clients, any number
of clients, I find that there'sa point at which everyone says
I'm worth something.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So you're telling me that if a person is being given
all kinds of things that theydon't ask for, they don't work
for, they just keep coming, thatit actually negatively affects
their sense of self-worth?
It can, and in this particularcase you believe that it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I believe in this case, I believe in this case he
was answering questions that shewasn't asking.
He was addressing needs thatshe didn't have asking he was
addressing needs that she didn'thave it was is.
I mean, I asked this gentlemanis it possible that all of these
things that you're trying tofulfill are things that she all,
that she had no need for, when,in fact, she didn't need
(09:04):
somebody to shower her withgifts and a lavish home.
She would rather have someonethat looked at her as a partner
and not an employee.
She just wanted to be a partner, she wanted to be equal, she
wanted to be liked, loved andrespected, and eventually that
broke.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So since there was somebody else involved, you said
earlier, apparently somebodycame into her life that
fulfilled those needs.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Typically in these experiences, it's always wrong
person, wrong time and and needmeets opportunity, um.
I'm not condoning it at all,obviously, just trying to
understand.
I'm just trying to understandit, um, and and I tell all of my
clients, all of them, when I'm,when I'm challenging them like
(09:52):
this on on the phone, I'm neverexcusing what your spouse did
Just look like.
I believe that you'reresponsible for your actions and
what you do to address the need.
They are also responsible fortheir actions in in causing
those, those problems, um, thatneed and those issues are on are
on her.
In this case it was.
(10:12):
It was wrong person, wrong time, exact, right match in the
worst possible way.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Okay, now I want to ask you a couple of more
questions about that, but I wantto make sure you guys
understand Nathan is anextremely intelligent person.
Just understand that.
He really is very, very smart.
But he wasn't doing counseling,he wasn't doing therapy, he
wasn't doing coaching.
What he was doing was trying tounderstand the problem so he
could guide this gentleman andhis wife, hopefully, to the
(10:39):
right thing that we can helpthem with.
And I guess, if we don't haveit, somebody else could help
them with this.
And so, as you were guiding him, what did you recommend to him
and how did he respond to that?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Now, in this case, based upon what he told me,
especially about her mindset, asI'm talking about their amount
of communication, they were incommunication, it was very
factual, it was very tenuous,but it was very, you know.
But it happened.
It's not like she went nocontact and she's run off to
Tahiti, right.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I'd like to run off to Tahiti.
You know what I'm in.
Let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We'll jump on your private jet yeah.
When I get it Exactly the inthis case, because he had a lot
of rewiring that he needed to doto be able to understand how to
approach her in a way that wasgoing to turn those pushes that
he was committing into pulls.
Help her to feel like she couldapproach him.
Because, think about it, ifyou're this, if you're this wife
(11:37):
right, and your, yourexperience of your partner for
the multiple decades has been,that person doesn't look at me
as equal.
That person does not listen tome.
He's my dad, he's my boss, mydad, I'm not safe.
Got it Right.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
So that's that spouse's experience, and so what
you're saying is that, nomatter how, many things are
given you?
How is his money, jewels,whatever, unless you feel
understood that, that thosethings are not enough?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Right, you have to make.
You do have it it.
There is a part of yourselfthat needs to be able to know
how to express your needs.
Yes, so you're not blaming itall on him?
No, of course not.
It's not all his fault.
It's always 50-50.
There's always halfway.
There's always a place thatboth have responsibility.
But in this case, she had notexpressed her need.
(12:31):
Maybe she didn't understand itpartially.
Is there a possibility?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
that maybe she did, but she did it so meekly he
didn't get it.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
In many cases when I deal with my avoidant clients,
that's very likely, you know,and their muscle memory says
even why try now, he's not goingto listen again.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Okay, Explain to me a non-athlete what muscle memory
is.
It's you know.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, explain to me a non-athlete what muscle memory
is.
It's that phrase of after awhile you just get in the habit
of If you've been not listenedto for so long, then after a
while you're just not going totalk.
Okay, so it's more of a defensemechanism where why try again
when I'm going to bedisappointed again?
That makes a lot of sense.
So what did you recommend tothe guy?
I recommended for him in thiscase, because we had a lot of
(13:14):
work to do that he enroll in thesolo program, our solo spouse
workshop program, because inthat program the first thing
that we need to do is to be ableto help him partner with our
coaching team and with our staffand our workshop to be able to
start working on the behaviorsthat helped him to misunderstand
what she's looking for.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Okay, and we have two different kinds of solo
programs.
I'm going to ask you which oneOne is we do online, and that's
both men and women.
We don't put mixed genders inthe same room for three days
because of the pain and thetemptations that could create.
So were you recommending theonline, where they're both males
and females, or were yourecommending the in-person we do
(13:53):
here, where it's just men?
In his case, which one do youthink was the better rate?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
In this case, I believe the in-person men's was
better for him, and only becausepartial part of it was gut I've
done this a lot and part of itwas just gut feeling.
Now, in terms of the quality ofprogram, they're the same.
We execute both very well.
But I believe that with aperson of that personality type,
(14:18):
having that camaraderie, havingthat in-person brotherhood,
that when you have one person,one gender in the room, there is
that ability to be able to getreal.
You've walked away from yourwork.
That's a huge thing If work hasdominated somebody's life for
so long.
To get away from the office, toget away from home, to go to a
(14:40):
new place in a strange placewith new people, it's a huge
deal.
You're in a new paradigm.
So in his case, I recommendedthe in-person.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, so what about the fact ifyou decided to go to the solo
with the women to get the femaleperspective, do you think that
he would have gained as muchthere, or do you think it still
should be the men only?
Well, there's benefits to both,for sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
For sure.
And there's also the practicalnature of look, if you just
can't travel here and you needhelp sooner than later in this
case, then absolutely.
If he looks at me and says it'snot possible, I need help now,
then let's go, let's do this.
There is a benefit to that.
I don't think it certainlywould have hurt the situation.
I made solely that decision forhim based on what I thought the
(15:26):
atmosphere would be a hugebenefit for him.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I see that and in our men's only workshop, which we
do in person, people actuallycome to Middle Tennessee and
these men are in a room togetherfor three days.
They don't sleep together inthe same room.
They have their hotel rooms, butthey're in a room together for
three days.
Yeah, it's not camp, it's notcamp, but the men get very
honest with each other, like youmight hear one say the other,
(15:51):
which you would typically nothear in the mixed gender Right,
and certainly probably not inthe couples workshop, which is
also outstanding.
Each has its own need, but themen sometimes will.
One man will look at the otherand say you realize you're being
an absolute jerk, don't you?
And it works because they'veall become buddies and friends.
It's not their animosity, right.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So it sounds to me like you made the right
suggestion.
So what did he say?
He's on his way, wonderful.
Yeah, I'm proud of him, Ireally am, because, um,
oftentimes, in this situation,especially with my high drivers,
um, your biggest obstacle tochange is yourself.
Uh, because, when you have to,when you, when you look yourself
face to face in the mirror andyou realize that, uh, that the
only reason that my life is ashambles is because I did it,
then there is a part ofresponsibility that comes with,
(16:41):
or there's a humility that comeswith, taking responsibility for
your actions.
And many, many times that isthat it comes with that dark
night of the soul which we justhave to face and realize that
sometimes I've just got to suckit up, buttercup and go.
You know, and I'm proud of him,I really, really am, cause it
was a big decision, you could.
(17:02):
You could hear the wheels.
You know, sometimes we joke, wehear the wheels turning.
You could hear the wheelsgrinding in his mind, um, but it
was really really powerful.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, Nathan, the way you dealt with this man, I
think, was very good.
There are several people in ourorganization, such as you, that
actually talk to people andhelp them with this, and so if
somebody out there, a man or awoman and you've got stories
about women as well, we'll dosome more of those later.
Sure, and you've got storiesabout couples.
We'll talk about some of thoselater, but right now, if they
(17:33):
wanted to talk to you orsomebody like you in our
organization, the way they dothat is the easiest way to do it
is just to jump online and goto marriagehelpercom slash call
and that's slash C-A-L-L.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
Fill out a little bit ofinformation, just so we can know
how to contact you, and amember of our team will reach
out, have a quick conversation,be able to make sure that what
we do lines up with what youneed, and we go from there.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now do they get a chance to pick whom, Because we
have both males and females, orit's just whoever's next in the
queue?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right.
Well, in this case, we have ateam of men and women that'll be
reaching out first and we cango from there based on scenario.
If there are some very specificneeds, then we can always
explore that.
Typically speaking, though,those needs aren't necessarily
when it comes to what I do,those needs aren't something
that necessarily needs to becomeaddressed, but we can always go
(18:30):
from there.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
If there's something very acute, then obviously we
want to take care of our people,so we can do that for sure,
okay, so if I'm understandingthis correctly, there's a first
level of somebody who will callthem back for an assessment and
then get them to you guys.
Correct, okay, and it's all notabout selling.
It's about helping you find theright thing to help you with
your specific problem, to helpyou with your specific problem.
(18:50):
Now, hopefully, as you listento Nathan on this, you
understand that from the veryget-go, the people you talked to
to begin with, before you getinto our programs whether it's a
workshop, membership, whateverit might be that these are folks
who genuinely care.
They've been very well-trainedand will do everything they can
to understand you and to helpguide you to what we can do for
you.
(19:10):
Now, next time, I want you totell me about somebody who
decided not to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Got some stories.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Okay, and thank you for being with us.
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