January 2, 2026 • 58 mins
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Learn how they saved their marriage after an affair and addiction, even after 25 years of what looked like a "perfect" life. In this raw and honest interview, Aaron and Rena Garcia open up about the secret pornography addiction and infidelity that nearly destroyed their family, and the specific steps they took to rebuild trust from the ground up.
If you are asking, "Can a marriage survive infidelity?" or "Is it possible to heal from betrayal trauma?" this video provides a real-life roadmap. Aaron, a former pastor, lived a secret double life for decades, while Rena was completely blindsided by the discovery. They discuss the intense physical reality of betrayal trauma (flooding), the shame of addiction in the church, and why they believe leaving isn't always the "easier" option.
In this video, we answer hard questions like:
- How do you rebuild trust after cheating?
- What does real healing look like for a betrayed spouse?
- Why does the "good guy" or spiritual leader fall into addiction?
- How long does it take to save a marriage after an affair?
Rena and Aaron’s story proves that while trust is lost in buckets, it is earned in drops. With the right help, including the Marriage Helper workshop, they didn't just go back to their old marriage... they built a new, stronger one.
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
All right.
I'm gonna start with easyquestions.
Can you tell me your names?
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
I'm Aaron Garcia.
SPEAKER_04 (00:08):
And I'm Raina Garcia.
How long have y'all beenmarried?
25 years.
25 years.
Like you've hit 25 years.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Yes.
We'll be at 26 years in June.
SPEAKER_04 (00:17):
Okay.
How many kids do you have?
Five.
Yeah?
Aging from 35 to 6 years old.
So there's a kid that's 10 yearsolder than what you that was 10
years old when you got married.
Yeah.
She is adopted into our family.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
She came in as a teenager.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_04 (00:37):
So how would you describe your marriage for the
past 25 years?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Well.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Let's see.
We had a good marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
You know, we had kids, we had consistent work.
Our health was usually good.
So from the outside looking in,we had a we had a good marriage.
Like we have a lot of fun.
We have fun together.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Love playing games and adventuring and yeah, be
best friends.
Like, yeah.
If I want to hang out, if Icould hang out with anyone in
the world, I would always pickAaron because he is my best
friend.
He knows me.
I don't have to fake anything.
It's just easy.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Yeah, it it seemed like it was a great marriage.
I think the older we get, themore we look back and see, maybe
see some things.
SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
But the cracks and the but we, you know, we got
married very young.
Uh we were 18 and no, 19 and 21years old when we got married.
We're just kids still growingup.
And so yeah, the older we get,the more we can identify like
the like, oh, that probablywasn't as healthy as we always
(01:48):
had thought it was.
But in hindsight, overall, we'vehad a fun, like a good yeah, a
lot of great memories.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Looking through old photo photos, you see a lot of
these fun times.
And I don't remember a lot oflike really negative moments in
our marriage.
I just don't.
And so I think from the outsidelooking in, we had a great, a
great marriage.
Um for the last 25 years.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
What were those cracks?
Um, I would probably say justlike um past like traumas and
pain and hurt and you know,childhood stuff, you know, that
compounded.
And when you get married, it isnot the answer to your problems.
It makes it like magnifies theproblems.
(02:41):
So I would say like early on,things that had definitely been
issues like growing up that wedidn't recognize were like
following us into our marriage.
And then as you get older,you're like, oh man, that is
definitely a product of myupbringing that I brought that
anger or, you know, thosedifferent things into the
(03:02):
marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
But one of the things that the crack that was
in our marriage that was um thatRaina didn't know anything about
was my um addiction topornography.
You know, being exposed topornography when I was like 12
years old.
And just dealing, just doingthat in my own life, thinking it
was normal, like it was part ofwhat every guy does and what
(03:26):
every guy's involved with.
It didn't seem like it was aproblem.
So I never felt a need to reallytell anybody.
And so thinking it wasn't reallya big deal, looking back at it,
that was a major crack thatcaused a lot of issues between
us over the years that probablyseemed like they came out of
nowhere, but obviously they werethey did have source to it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
Because of the background I came from, the way
that he treated me felt verygood.
Until you get older and you sunderstand what we were going
through healing, and I'm like,oh my gosh, this isn't normal
and this isn't okay.
This is literally a product ofhis addiction to porn.
Like the ways that our intimacywas, and pressures and weird
(04:14):
things were all things I thoughtwere normal.
Were him pursuing you.
Yes, what was him, yes, but theywere not, and nor were they
healthy.
Um, but because I think I camefrom such a background of seeing
like just a wild marriage, Ithought like this is how
(04:37):
marriage is, and this isbeautiful because outside of
those moments, we had a greatmarriage, like we really loved
each other and it felt reallygreat.
But then through the healingprocess, it's like, oh my gosh,
that isn't normal.
And it isn't, it wasn't healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
You know, I thought as a young man, you know,
battling that that secret, um,thinking that there was nothing
wrong with it.
Um, but I also thought that, youknow, like every I think a lot
of young men that I talk to say,like, well, when I get married,
I won't need it anymore.
It's not gonna be a thing.
(05:14):
It won't even matter becauseI'll I'll have a solution to
that desire.
And the reality was that justwasn't real.
SPEAKER_04 (05:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
And so thinking that it would change, and it never
did, um, definitely caused someissues.
And you know, my mom and dadobviously did the very best they
could to raise us.
Um, they loved us.
I felt like I look remember as akid, I thought I had the best
life.
I thought I had the best life.
And but one of the things that Irealized that my my dad taught
(05:45):
me was, you know, our businessis our business.
We don't need to be tellingpeople what we're going through.
It's not their business.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
And trying to be protective of privacy um taught
me a lesson of I'm not tellinganybody anything because nobody
needs to know what I'm goingthrough.
It's not their business.
And that included my wife.
It included people that werearound me that were trying to be
like my accountability friends.
(06:14):
Um, it just wasn't theirbusiness.
So I never opened up about anystruggles um in my life because
again, I I just had learned mywhole life that it's not their
business.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
So you didn't know at all.
Yeah, imagine being married toyour best friend for 25 years
and we know everything abouteach other.
And I had no clue.
No, absolutely no clue.
I never crossed my mind.
I trust him so deeply.
I if it came up in likeconversation with friends at
church, like, oh, they'rewalking through this because it
(06:48):
was never, I would never think,oh, maybe I should ask Aaron if
he's doing because he why hewould why.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Well, you you asked me before, and I was like, nah,
thing for me.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
So there, yes, like it's like I feel so bad for her.
Like, that must be so hard.
Um, and then like there weretimes where he would like make
me think that this is it's fineif guys do.
All guys do it.
It's totally normal, it'stotally bad.
It's not harmful, it's nothurting anybody if they want to
(07:21):
do it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
No, we didn't.
No, this is like pre-I I alwayshad a very gracious um
perspective on it because when Iwould talk to guys that were
struggling with it, I wouldalways like, hey man, let's walk
through this together.
But you know, it is it's it'snormal.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yes, so I I started believing that watching porn
wasn't that harmful.
Everybody just does it.
Is that crazy?
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
But I really but I really thought that.
I thought it the religiouspeople had a problem with it.
But like in culture and society,because you hear like like sex
therapists or doctors talk aboutoh yeah, if if it helps you,
great, do it, watch it, beinvolved, engaged in it,
whatever.
So you're thinking, well, theworld says that this is okay,
(08:08):
and these are real doctors, notlike some spiritual guy.
So then you think, but you know,and and people openly talk about
it on TV and just accept andmedia.
So you're just like uh it's nota problem, it's just more of a
spiritual problem, but it's notlike a a a health issue or a
mental health issue.
SPEAKER_04 (08:27):
And you were a pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
I was, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:30):
And so you were holding these two things in
tension of well, this is whatthe world is saying is okay,
versus like what did you think?
Did you did you think that itwas permissible scripture-wise?
I don't know a better way to putthat.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Well, I think there was a point where because when I
this is when we were very young.
And I think there was a pointwhere I realized this is not,
this is not godly, it's notokay.
And no matter what, no matterwhat a doctor says on TV, like
this is something that is notright.
It's not respectable to my wife.
But yeah, I, you know, at thetime I was a young pastor, um,
(09:07):
battling that in my own private,yeah, secret life, thinking it
wasn't an issue.
And then I came to a point whereI realized it is an issue, it's
not okay, but I'm gonna beat it.
I'll take care of it, I'llhandle this.
I'll I'll just my own willpower.
Yeah, my own willpower, I'llstop it.
Nobody needs to know, I'll justfix it.
Plus, if people know, you know,now you know the spiritual
(09:31):
dynamic of it to where if you'rea pastor and you come out and
you tell people I'm strugglingwith pornography, well, now you
lose um maybe not your job, butyou definitely lose a lot of
respect.
If somebody knows you strugglewith something like pornography,
they're not gonna want to listento what you have to say about
the Bible.
And so now it became a privatebattle of saying, I can get over
(09:54):
this.
Um, I definitely can't afford tolose that because if I do, it
could cost us our job.
And we depend on that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
And so it was you kind of have that inner battle.
Um, and this was early on inministry when we were when we
were younger.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
So when did you find out?
Um, I didn't find out untilD-Day, till my D-Day of five
years ago.
Yeah, and that is when that isliterally the first I had ever
heard of um, yeah.
His porn addiction and then theaffair and all of that, all of
(10:33):
it one time.
SPEAKER_04 (10:35):
So y'all had been married for 20 years, best
friends, things were going well,but ultimately there came a day
where you found out that he hadbeen hiding things that you
didn't know about.
When you first heard that he hadbeen messaging with another
(10:56):
woman, how did you what did youthink and how did you feel?
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
I thought, no way, impossible.
Like, no.
I um as it started to settle inand I read the messages, that's
when I'm I'm not, it's kind of ablur.
Yeah, it's a little bit of ablur.
(11:22):
I feel like if you want to know,like in my body, it felt like an
out-of-body experience.
Like my brain could not processthat this would happen to my
family or my husband.
Like I just, yeah.
How did you approach him aboutit?
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
I remember vividly.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
She called me and I was I waited a while because I
was like, This is just this isso weird.
Like, there's no way.
Nah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
I remember that day because I was I was working uh
for my friend's company on theside um of the church.
Um and she called me and I was Ihad just finished doing uh
servicing a store.
And I was getting in the truckand I was leaving.
She calls me and says, What areyou doing?
(12:16):
I go, I just finished thisstore.
And she was like, Are you surethat's where you are?
And I was like, Well, yeah,where else would I be?
She's like, How long has thisbeen going on?
I'll never forget it.
Because I've never, there'snever been a moment in my life
where I've caused her more pain.
(12:39):
It was in that or began to causemore pain because again, it was
there was some delayed andstaggered revelations over the
next weeks.
Um but in that moment, that waswhere her worst nightmare came
true, and I'll never forget itbecause I just realized how
deeply I hurt her.
(13:01):
And she asked me the questions,and I remember trying to think
how can I how can I ease this asmuch as possible, but but then
she's like, Yeah, I don'tbelieve you.
And then I I remember finallysaying, Okay, this is this is
the truth.
And that was the that startedeverything, and it was the the
(13:24):
reason why it was so difficultfor me was because it hurt her
so much.
And I remember hearing thisdesperation in her voice, or
this there's a there's a tone toa voice that's that's not used
any other time.
And you could hear it, and Ijust remember thinking, I can't
believe I did.
(13:45):
I in fact, I remember going backin my memory to when I started
my um those moments or thosethose failures, thinking I can
never come back from this.
There's no way I've made thisdecision and it can never be
reversed.
Thinking I wish I could go backto that moment and never do this
(14:08):
to her ever, you know, and andum I just remember that that
I'll I'll literally never forgetthat phone call.
Um and I remember all I wantedto do was get to her so I could
try and talk through it, um,figure it out, you know.
Cause, you know, I I think formaybe I don't know if this is
(14:31):
just a guy thing, but you alwayswant to try and fix it.
Like, how can we fix this?
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
I could not tell you how I felt because I was in such
a state of shock.
Like literal shock.
Like my brain couldn't processanything.
I think I spent an entire yearin freeze.
I spent weeks vomiting just overand over and over with I lost a
whole bunch of weight.
Uh, my family all came in to bewith me because I couldn't, I
(15:00):
had a baby.
Bania was um our youngest wasjust a baby.
And so I they came in to helpme.
And I think my I cannot describethe way I felt.
It was just the most intensepain and confusion that I have
(15:20):
ever felt in my life.
If you've never experienced it,I don't even know what to liken
it to.
It was just intense.
And I would, even for an entire,what was like a whole year, even
when we began our healingjourney, we would just be
sitting there watching TV and Iwould start dry heaving for no
(15:41):
reason.
And it was just like nervoussystem, just like things would
come up and I would just withouteven, I would just start dry
heaving, just throw up.
And I mean, it was yeah, it wasintense.
And there, and there wereperiods of anger, you know,
looking my baby in the eyes,being like, how could anybody do
(16:04):
this with this with thissituation with our family?
Like, how could anybody do thisto them?
That those moments producedanger in me because I wanted to
protect them from their pain.
Like, I'll figure it out, butlike, how are they?
They're they I have two littleones.
(16:26):
Like, how are they gonna dothis?
So, like there was a lot offeelings, but mostly for a
while, just straight shock.
Were you all together the wholetime, or did you ever separate?
I asked Aaron to move out.
Um, and he moved out forprobably like three months-ish.
Um, I think when we finally, itwas because of our little ones
(16:49):
that um they were just soconfused and didn't know how to
navigate, and it was hard toexplain to them without giving
them details of what washappening.
And it was more for them thananyone to have dad back in the
house.
And then we decided to move.
Like, if we're really gonna trythis, we probably need to not be
(17:10):
here anymore.
And so we packed it up and wemoved here to at least try.
And I didn't put my skin in thegame yet.
I wasn't there yet when wemoved, I wasn't all the way in
yet.
I just needed, I was still sostuck that I just, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
Did y'all ever consider divorce?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Every day for like I know you did.
Sorry, yes.
I mean it to be completelyhonest, it wasn't until like two
years in that I was like, I amin love with my husband and I'm
gonna do, I'm gonna match hishealing work, you know, because
(17:56):
and even not still, but eventhen there would be days where
thoughts would creep in, dates,moments that you know were that
were connected to a bad memorythat I was like, never mind, I
can't do this.
I just literally can't do it.
Like we would just be better.
I can't live always having to donervous system work.
(18:17):
I can't live constantly tryingto like feel safe.
Like I can't do that anymore.
So there were many times thatAaron was all in and doing all
the right things and just likekilling it in his recovery work
and being so supportive, anddays where I was like, I don't
(18:39):
think I can stay married to thisman.
But you did.
I did.
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
And I'm so glad I did.
You mentioned a minute ago, aminute ago, Aaron, that you
you'd heard that saying, like,you had had an affair, you had
done these things.
And for so many people,biblically, non-biblically,
whether Christians or not, a lotof people say, like, oh, once
you've had an affair, it's over.
Like you were saying, like, themarriage is over.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
Um, I don't, I don't agree.
Um, and that's I think that'swhere the tension is now because
the reason why I never got helpis because as a as a pastor, um,
I was afraid to lose everything.
I and again, I was 40 years old,and I didn't know how to do
(19:29):
anything else.
But be a pastor.
But be a pastor.
And I was like, I know this iswrong.
I know it.
And I battled that.
Like, how do you how do youjustify ministering and then in
another part of your lifebetraying your wife?
Um it it's it's such a weirdplace to be, and there is a lot
(19:51):
of internal battles that go onin the midst of those moments.
Um, but I also knew like I I canI can figure This out.
That's what I thought.
I can figure this out.
I want to do the right thing.
I can figure this out.
But I can't tell anybody becauseif I do, uh, I won't be able to
(20:12):
provide for my family anymorebecause I don't know any other
way to do that.
And I won't be able to have afamily.
I didn't think, I thought forsure, if this ever comes out,
I'm going to lose my family,which was the most important
thing.
I didn't want to lose my family,but I would also lose my ability
to provide for them.
And so I just kept kept it quietto myself.
(20:38):
And I remember one time Rainawas like, something's wrong with
you.
I want you to go see atherapist.
And I remember sitting therethinking, like, I'm not going to
therapist.
And she's like, I think you needto go see somebody.
So we we set it up and I wentand saw a therapist.
And the the he was great, but Iwasn't honest with him.
(21:01):
The whole time he's asking methings.
And I just remember thinking,like, I'll tell you what I want
you to hear, but I will nevertell you what's really going on.
I was so afraid.
Um, because there it's I youknow what you sign up for.
In no way, shape, or form do Ifeel bad for myself for the
consequences of my actions,because I knew what I signed up
(21:25):
for.
I knew that a minister is heldto a higher account.
And I knew that when you makemistakes as a minister, there's
gonna be accountability.
Um so I don't feel bad formyself at all.
Um you know, Raina found outwithout me telling her, which is
uh I I I regret that deeply.
(21:47):
I wish I was the one that wouldhave came clean, but I didn't.
Um and I regret that.
But once it came out, Idesperately wanted to get
healthy because I was like,okay, well, it's out.
You know, I I I remember callingmy my kind of oversight people
(22:10):
on Friday, and I confessed.
So within a matter of an hour ofof confessing to her, I called
our leadership and confessed,and within a couple of hours it
was over.
You know, it was over.
SPEAKER_04 (22:26):
And and again everything that you were scared
of happening happened all withina couple of things.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
But not just but not just to him, who had been kind
of preparing himself.
It happened to me and my kids.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Who had about a one-hour notice, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
Of like, no, you're not allowed back in the church,
you're done.
You can't see your friendsanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
You can't don't don't call and contact your
staff.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
But I think that's, you know, again, like that
series of events um was so scaryum and so quick.
But it I feel like I knew I knewit.
I knew that was what was gonnahappen.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
We did not know that was gonna happen.
Yeah, you didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
And that and I regret that.
I, you know, because I I knew inmy mind for a long time leading
up to that, that one day theLord is gonna say, You're done.
SPEAKER_04 (23:19):
Not everyone would have done what you did.
And I mean that in the sensethat like there are people who
get caught in affairs, getcaught in addiction, get caught
in these things, and they choosenot to get healing.
But you did.
And I want to I want to knowwhy.
Like, when why when in some waysof looking at it, it would have
(23:42):
been easier to just walk away,start over, start a new life.
It would have been easier towalk away from the guilt and
walk away from the shame andjust and just move on.
But you didn't.
Why didn't you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
Um, well, first of all, because I love Raina and I
love our kids.
Um I I know this isn'tbelievable.
And I've heard this from a lotof gu uh other guys too that I
worked with over the past fewyears.
Um I loved her the whole time.
And and the idea that yeah,there was some some cracks in
(24:20):
our marriage, but it I didn't dothis because our marriage was
terrible.
I was I was a very unhealthyhuman being.
Um I loved her, and I still loveher.
Um and that's why it was like,okay, I have created this
nightmare situation for my wifeand my kids.
I never want to do that again.
(24:43):
And I want to make right what Imessed up.
And um, I mean, that reallythat's the only that's the only
reason.
And and I hated who I was.
I really hated having um adouble life, if you want to call
it that.
I hated having secrets.
(25:05):
I hated having, because secretskill you.
Um there again, I don't everwant anyone to feel any sort of
sympathy for me.
I am I am the villain of thestory.
I'm very aware of that.
I hurt my family.
I hurt the people we that welove.
I I hurt our church family inthis process.
(25:25):
And so I'm very aware, but I'llI'll never forget sitting there
like with the weight of thelying and the weight of holding
secrets that I mean there weretimes, and I've told you this,
and I remember you saying, like,you're too much of a narcissist
to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
But but I remember literally my angry moments,
yeah, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
But I remember in my in moments being like planning
how I could just kill myself.
I would I would picture this iswhat I'm gonna do because I
don't want my kids to find methis way.
So this is what I'm gonna do,this is how I'm gonna do it.
I just can't do this.
The weight was so heavy.
(26:12):
I'll never forget some momentsome moments where I would sit
there, I'd be driving in my car,and uh I could feel uh like a
real weight on on my like backand my head just pushing me
down.
And in like this, I I as aChristian, I really felt like it
(26:33):
was like a demonic moment wherethe enemy was trying to tell me,
you're not escaping from this.
And if you don't go get what youneed, I'm gonna kill you.
And just this darkness, super uha heaviness that I can't
explain.
(26:54):
Um and I remember thinking,like, I don't want this, I I
don't want this at all, but I'min it, and I don't know how to
get out.
And so when it came out, yeah, Ididn't willingly come out.
Um but when it came out, it waslike, okay, I can I can I can
(27:15):
grab the life preserver.
You know, I I I I I can't, I'mnot afraid anymore because I'm
I'm out.
And so um I know I I don't wantthat to sound selfish.
SPEAKER_04 (27:31):
I think it helps.
I think it helps to be able tolike see each perspective with
empathy because you both wentthrough something hard in
different ways.
When was the first time youremember feeling empathy towards
him?
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Interesting question.
I don't honestly, I do, I don'teven know.
I mean, I'll people all the timeare like, oh my gosh, you're so
graceful and so forgiving.
And I laugh because I'm like,okay.
The amount of times that I andit's it's embarrassing the
(28:12):
amount of times that I justflipped out where I just could
not where something would comeup or like a a little like truth
would come out and I just loseit.
And so whenever everyone's like,oh, you're so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Can I tell a story about the coffee?
No, well, that one's a good onetoo.
I have a feeling the night thatI was sleeping in our guest
bedroom and I was asleep, andshe came in, opened the door,
kicked me out of the house whileI was asleep.
I hadn't even done anything atthe moment.
Because I couldn't in the middleof the night, kicked me out of
(28:48):
the house.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
I'm crawling to the bathroom, throwing up,
processing my life justcompletely.
The grief of losing our churchand my kids and all of these
things.
And I'm processing through them.
I'm crawling to the bathroom tobarf, and he's just snoring in
the other room.
And I'm like, oh no, you're I amsuffering.
(29:11):
And I like I was like, you'reout of here.
I'm not doing this.
What are you doing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
I think a lot of men in this situation that might be
in the early on stages ofrepairing their families, um,
they get they might get a littleimpatient.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Or defensive.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
But the thing they they they can't ever forget is
the reason why she is this wayis because of what I did.
This is this is because of mybetrayal that she is having such
a hard time with her nervoussystem, with her emotions, those
types of things.
And I did that.
So I have to, I have to findempathy for that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
There came a point, and I people say time heals
wounds, and I just don't believethat at all.
But there came a point when Isaw Aaron's efforts.
So, like when Aaron, when I wasfeeling overwhelmed, and Aaron,
or I would be riding in a carand there would just be tears.
And I didn't want to like rehashor or make him feel bad, but he
(30:14):
would see my tears and he wouldjust gently reach over and be
like, I'm so sorry that I havemade you feel this way.
Whether it was something he haddone or not, he was taking so
much responsibility and havingso much empathy for me.
There came, there were manymoments where I was like, Holy
cow, this is like, this has tobe so hard for him to have this
(30:38):
amount of humility when I amwalking through that and feeling
these ways or saying thesethings that he would still sit
in it and be like, I'm so sorry,I'm here.
How can I, what can I do?
And it was after, I mean, yearsof that, you know, two years of
just him constant just doing thework and getting healthy and not
(31:04):
and never making me questionlike his intentions or my
safety, that I was like, oh man,I really need to do the work to
match this.
I will I see that God hascompletely transformed this
man's life and he's different.
And I always loved him before,but it's like this is very
(31:26):
attractive to me.
Like, wow.
And everything was just changed.
I mean, even like in I don'tknow, but like on an intimate
level, you know, and a lot ofpeople don't talk about this,
but after betrayal, um, that's avery hard step to take.
It's very difficult.
And a lot of things come alongfor the betrayed partner that
(31:52):
they don't know about or haven'texperienced.
And there might be like weirdnervous system things or
shaking, or um, for me, I wantedto be intimate with my husband,
but I would experience extremeintense pain after in my
stomach, where I would doubleover and just it hurt so bad.
(32:12):
And things like that wouldhappen.
And instead of Aaron being like,oh my gosh, this is he was very
like, I am so sorry.
How can this?
We don't have to do this.
I just what do you need?
He was very like in moments thatwere scary and awkward,
incredibly awkward anduncomfortable.
(32:33):
He was still in it.
Like, how can I help you?
He was doing his own work, I wasdoing my own work, but together
he was always like the humilityand the kindness and the empathy
and the I am so sorry, what canI do?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Was like it changed, it took this scared hard shell,
and he just like slowly pieceswere falling until it was like,
this is safe, this can be happyagain, this can be good again.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Well, I think too, like the when I was not healthy,
like it's the journey of gettinghealthy where I was able to be
aware of those moments and knowhow to respond right and know
like and feel those feelings ofof pain and empathy that maybe I
(33:27):
wasn't capable of before.
And there's a I mean, there's alot of guys out there um that
are that they just they don'thave those feelings.
Well, I know and when whenyou're finally getting healthy,
you're like, wow, um I these arefeelings I'm not used to.
(33:49):
I mean, I used to sit there, youI remember for a while there, I
would just randomly start cryingbecause I'd never I'm not an
emotional person at all.
I would never feel any emotions,and then just it's weird because
I'm not used to that.
And I would start crying, andum, I would ask our my
therapist, and he'd be like, heyman, just let it out.
(34:11):
Just do it, just feel it.
And um, I wasn't, I I know thissounds weird, but it just wasn't
part of me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
I think that came with getting healthy though.
Yeah, it's with going throughrecovery, because I think a lot
of people in our situation, um,like I've spoken with many women
whose husbands have um who havebeen caught in affairs or or um
like porn addictions anddifferent things, and their
husbands are not willing to doany work.
They just want to be forgivenand move forward, like, oh, you
(34:42):
love Jesus, forgive me, let'smove forward.
There's no, there's no work.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Getting caught does not mean you'll stop.
I know a lot of guys that havebeen caught that they're walking
through divorce, they're walkingthrough losing their children,
and they are not willing tostop.
unknown (34:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Um, so being caught is not like, oh, I've been
caught, now I have to stop.
I know a lot of, I mean, I haveover the last five years, I have
met so many men who have beencaught and will not, will not
change.
SPEAKER_04 (35:14):
What would you say?
What would you want to say tothat man right now if he was
sitting here?
He's been caught, he's notstopping.
SPEAKER_01 (35:21):
There is hope.
If you get the right hope,there's hope.
The reason why you're not, it'snot that a lot of men, it's not
that they don't have the desireto stop when they're caught.
It's not that they don't desirethat.
It's that they don't get theright help.
They don't know how to.
So they so they'll try, but thenit's not, it's there's it's not
(35:41):
working because it's not theright thing.
And so I would tell any marriedcouple, your marriage is worth
fighting for.
And if these things havehappened, get the right help.
Start seeking help now.
You cannot heal this on yourown.
You cannot.
Your body and brain cannot heal.
You need guidance.
(36:01):
If you're if the betrayedpartner is battling with
addiction, there has to be realhelp.
Seeking the right help.
Because there is always, I thinkthat marriage can be saved.
I think God can redeem anything.
I think that I think anyone canmake it with the right help.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Yeah.
But you know, a lot of timessomebody might, well, I've been
talking to my friend.
unknown (36:28):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
And it's just not getting any better.
And it's like, yeah, well,that's not the right help.
You need to go to someone whoknows what they're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Yeah.
Well, they say trust is lost inbucket loads and earned in
drops.
Is that what it is?
I think that's what it is.
And so he has slowly sound good.
He's slowly put the drops backin the bucket, you know, the
whole thing dumped.
And it hasn't, it wasn't justlike, oh yeah, we're good.
Like we're in this good.
(36:56):
It was like a very long andslow.
And so I would say to like womenor men in the, you know, if
you're feeling like this is wecan't do this, like, don't rush
it.
Take your time.
Healing is slow.
It's not just like, hey, boom, Iforgive you.
This list go to a movie.
It's nothing like that.
(37:17):
It's a journey.
Take your time.
Have bad days.
Have good days.
This is the thing.
Don't give up.
It is worth fighting for.
Just do not give up becauseyou're gonna have bad days.
You're gonna have days whereyou're sitting there and you
drive for no reason.
You're gonna have days whereyou're just overwhelmed with
flooding.
You're gonna have these dayswhere you look at them and
(37:37):
you're like, I can't do this.
But just keep going.
There is hope you can, you cando it.
Just keep going.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:46):
One of the things I love about y'all's story is it's
such a picture of thisconsistency over time, like
you're talking about.
And you're right.
When when traumas happen, whenhuge changes in your life
happen, it's the consistencyover time of doing the right
things that will rebuild lovethat rebuild that trust that
(38:08):
lead the marriage to ultimatelybe saved and even better than it
was before.
And I love the that there was apressing in, like both of you
could have left, and others inyour shoes have and started new
families, new lives, whatever,but y'all didn't.
(38:31):
And you've done a lot of thishard work and just continued to
do it over time, like even whenit got hard, even when maybe at
times it you were even like youeven resented it.
I don't know, but there's justyou did it and you continued to
do it, and you the other thingthat I hate when I hear people
say is, oh, I would do anythingto save my marriage, but I won't
(38:54):
do that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (38:55):
Like I won't go to counseling or therapy, I won't
do this thing, I won't give upsocial media for three years.
I won't fill in whatever it is.
Yeah.
It's like, but this is your mostimportant earthly relationship.
And in the grand scheme of life,these things aren't like aren't
that big of an ask to save yourfamily.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Yeah.
And that and I felt like itwasn't too big of an ask.
I do think that a lot of womenare um so trusting that when
their husband comes to them andsays, I'm sorry I did this, that
they will just move on.
But I also think that that isone of the worst things that you
can do.
SPEAKER_04 (39:35):
Yeah, not do you have to deal with the problems.
SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
You have to get to the problem.
There is a root to every thereis a root to everything that
happens.
Let's heal the root and thengrow.
Otherwise, we we can't just keepdoing this cycle and then
because I will if we just keptif we did that, like, oh yep, I
forgive, let's keep on, let'sgo.
If I was like that, we would bein this situation.
(40:00):
Again.
And no one can feel that paintwice.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
It's I feel like Dr.
Joe.
I I watched a video not too longago of him talking about putting
up boundaries and safeguards torebuild trust.
But also at the end of the day,you know, we're all human beings
and we're all we're all we allhave the capacity to fail.
But when you set the safeguardsup, you're limiting the
(40:26):
possibility of you doing itagain.
SPEAKER_04 (40:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
You're you're saying, you know, I'm not going
to have big amounts of time thatare unaccountable.
So there's going to be thesesafeguards in place to where
she'll know that she's safe.
That it's not, there's no way Icould just disappear for a
while.
It's we have things in place tomake sure that I'm accountable
(40:51):
to where I'm at.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
And there there's been moments too where um just
like in good in like we'relearning to trust each other,
where I could be like, hey,listen, I'm okay with you.
Like, let's have thisconversation.
Yeah, let's if you are wantingto get back on social media,
let's go ahead and like I feelcomfortable with that.
But he never tried to do thosethings without like having a
(41:15):
conversation.
SPEAKER_03 (41:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
And I had his text messages on my computer, which I
never looked at, but I hadaccess to them.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
And there was, it was And you always have access
to my phone.
Right.
At any moment.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
And same.
But like there was a momentwhere I was like, I these are
annoying me, these popping up.
I'm getting I have to get we'regetting rid of this.
Uh, but just being able to sayto him, like, there there is
full trust here.
Like, I don't I thank you forthis access, but I am, I don't
need this.
Yeah.
And it is annoying trying to domy homework, you know.
(41:51):
But like I definitely encouragepeople, like, stay the course
and stay in it.
Like, it's not gonna be fast.
And there's gonna feelings areso fickle.
And there's gonna be days whereyou are like, no, this is not
like power through that.
It is just a feeling.
It is not, it's not truth.
It's just how you feel at themoment.
(42:12):
And I think a lot of people makeharsh.
I had a friend right aftereverything say, and I was like,
I am not doing this.
This guy is a scumbag.
I he does not deserve me, hedoesn't deserve my kids.
I mean, knee jerk.
I'm like, see ya out of here.
And then a dear friend say,please do not make any decisions
(42:35):
for six months.
Don't do anything for sixmonths.
Get healthy, whatever you gottado, don't make any rash
decisions.
And that was actually one of thegreatest things anyone told me
because I am like in my mind, Iwas like, you're out of here,
bro.
And I didn't care.
(42:56):
I didn't care in the in thebeginning stages, I didn't care
what the Bible said, I didn'tcare what people were saying, I
didn't care what they thoughtabout me.
I was just like, I'm not doingit.
And I took that advice for myfamily, for my kids, and then it
was just a process of untilthose layers were peeled, and I
(43:20):
was like, oh, wait a minute, Ireally love you, and I really do
want to be married to you.
But I mean, those I think peopleneed to know, like, you're gonna
feel better tomorrow or today.
It's gonna take a lot of time.
And if you just stay in it, andif you have those moments of
flooding or like, I this guy,I'm out of here.
(43:42):
Like, go to the right people,seek the right help, and just
stay in it.
Because I feel like if you couldsee how we are together now, um
it's just it's great, it'shealthier, it's more fun.
We're doing more things.
There, there's a level of umrespect and and empathy and
(44:04):
care.
It's just so different.
Where I thought was things Ithought were healthy before.
Now I'm like, oh, I alwayswanted this.
I always wanted this, and I amgetting it now.
And I just think that's justthrough the process and staying
in it.
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Y'all did a lot of things, the therapy, both
individually, all the things.
Um, and then recently, fiveyears into it, you just came to
one of the Maritoper workshops.
How was that five years afterthe crisis?
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
It was great.
SPEAKER_04 (44:37):
Who wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
It was great, and still learned a lot.
And that's the thing.
You're, you know, you canthere's always more to learn.
Yeah.
And there's always more to grow.
SPEAKER_01 (44:46):
We learned a lot about attachment styles, which
was really helpful.
We also learned about likeflooding, which was huge for me
because I could never pinpointhow it felt in those moments of
the deepest pain and grief, andthey came out of nowhere.
They came out of, you know, juston a certain day, or seeing a
(45:09):
certain vehicle or a certainmovie or something like that.
And all of a sudden, from mytoes to my head, I'm just
overwhelmed.
And I just want to get out of mybody.
I want to scream.
And learning about flooding,what I like, I was able to put
like a name to what I wasfeeling in those moments of like
(45:30):
deep trauma and grief.
And so I was like, oh my gosh.
And now I have a word.
Yeah.
Because I feel like trigger issuch a buzzword.
Oh, I was triggered.
Everybody gets triggered byeverything.
Oh, they eat a bad piece ofchicken and they're triggered.
And it's like, I'm like, that'snot the, that's not what it is.
That is not how it feels.
Flooding, that is how it feels.
(45:52):
I cannot get out.
I can't get out of this.
It is so overwhelming.
I don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
For a long time, I was not convinced that you were
gonna stay.
And I was so afraid of her beinglike, this is just too much.
To put the way I feel now.
And it's not, I mean, we've donea lot of work together and we've
grown a lot together.
We've we've been through a lottogether over the last five
(46:21):
years to where we're closer nowthan we've ever been.
We're we're better friends thanwe've ever been.
SPEAKER_01 (46:27):
I think like things like marriage helper, though, is
like you should always beinvesting.
Like you never will never reacha point where we're like, we're
healthy, we're healed, we'redone.
It's like anytime, and I wouldsay that to couples who have
been through things that we'vebeen through and they feel like
they're on the other side, likestuff like this, you should
always be investing in it.
(46:48):
Always because you because aswe're getting older, we're going
through different seasons oflife.
We're now we're we'regrandparents and we have a
little and we have adults and wehave all these things, and in
different seasons of life, eveneven when you're healthy,
there's moments where it's like,oh, how do we navigate this?
Like, how can I care for you andthat?
And that's like for us, we werein such a good place, and then
(47:11):
we go to marriage helpers, andit's like, oh, well, that would
have been useful three yearsago, you know, to apply that.
Like, if there are couples whohave been through what we've
been through, I would just say,get in, get in these, do the
work, just keep the work isnever done.
You should always be investingin that relationship in what
(47:33):
you're doing.
It's just so important, it'sworth fighting for.
SPEAKER_04 (47:37):
And the work probably looks different now
than it did five years ago,right?
It's not, it's not as intensiveor all of the time or invasive
or all-encompassing, but it's sotrue.
Just like with our mentalhealth, our physical health, our
spiritual health, right?
There's always an intentionalitythat should go into it in order
(47:57):
to keep it vibrant and alive andhealthy.
But so many times the marriageis the like the first one to go,
the first one we stop focusingon when life is busy or work is
stressful or whatever it mightbe, because we can get, we can
get complacent.
SPEAKER_01 (48:15):
I think for me, I am thankful that healing doesn't
look like I thought it wouldlook.
Because I thought healing lookedlike um our marriage before,
like back to that happymarriage.
And it is not that healing hasbeen, it's vastly different from
our marriage before, which Ithought was happy.
(48:36):
And by all intents and purposes,it was fine.
But I'm so thankful that itisn't what I thought it was
gonna be.
It's so much deeper and moreconnected and more intimate, not
just intimate sexually, butintimate emotionally.
Um, that it was never before itwas never a thing before that as
(49:00):
deeply emotional, um, which Ithink most women desire.
Most women desire an emotionalintimacy with their husband.
It's like all-encompassing.
And at first I thought, oh,well, we can heal and we'll just
go back to our normal, happy.
And I am just so thinking, well,it is not because this is so
(49:22):
much better.
It's so much more intentional,it's so much more.
There's just so many more betterthings that have come with the
work and the healing.
And I am so glad it looks sodifferent.
Because I to go back, knowingwhat I know now, to go back to
(49:42):
what we had, I would not beinterested in that.
That is not what I what the waythat God designed for us to be.
And so I am very thankful forall of this work that we've
done.
It is so much better than I hadever envisioned it being.
And when we travel together andwhen we, when um things happen
(50:03):
in our life, like I'm doingschool, and Aaron is cooking
dinner and he's putting kids tobed, and he's pitching and and
he's doing things that were notpart of our routine before ever.
Um, there's more of apartnership.
There's more of a, there's justso many things that are so much
better than I could have everimagined.
SPEAKER_04 (50:26):
But you probably never would have thought of when
you first found out abouteverything or when you were
kicking them out of the house at3 a.m.
or or any of those things, butyou're living in in the goodness
of it now.
SPEAKER_01 (50:40):
Yep.
And I will, I would say, like,there are still hard days.
There's still hard moments.
But when you do the work and youdo things like upkeep,
maintenance, marriage helpers,therapy, when you do all of
that, you learn how to stop itbefore it gets to the flooding.
(51:00):
You learn how to regulate beforeit gets to a point where you're
like, I can't do this anymore.
And that's just part of stayingin it and doing the work and
doing the maintenance.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (51:15):
What is something you would say to someone who is
listening who's in each of yourpositions?
So what would you say to the thethe man who is like, I'm hiding
things?
Or what would you say to thewife who's like, I can't trust
him ever again?
SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
I think for someone hiding things, I would remind
them that nothing stays hidden.
And so it's just best that youfind somebody and you start the
process of coming clean and justbeing honest.
Um, I would also say that evenif you're the one who has hurt
(51:57):
your spouse, betrayed yourspouse, or you've had those
secrets, you're worth fightingfor.
Um, you know, in all the thelast five years, um I this a
couple nights ago, we were at aparty and a couple was sitting
across from us.
And I have told people this overthe years, like in our recovery
(52:17):
meetings, like, hey man, you areworth fighting for.
I know that you made a mistake.
And I know that in your story,you're the bad guy, but you're
worth fighting for.
And in all those years, no onehas ever said that to me until a
couple nights ago.
I was at a party, and thiscouple across from me, they
looked at me and go, we justwant you to know that you're
worth it.
And I thought, wow, that likecaught me off guard.
(52:40):
Because I've no one has eversaid that.
Because again, I've I was thethe bad guy in the story, but I
would say that to any man thatis struggling right now.
Like, there's a lot of reasonswhy we fail.
And it's not always becausewe're just these terrible,
horrible human beings.
It's because we're weak and wehave problems or we have
(53:00):
unresolved things in our lives.
Those aren't an excuse for doingwhat we did.
But there is still a level ofgrace for that person to find
healing, and they're worthfighting for, even if they're
the ones that betrayed theirspouse or or um have just made
some bad decisions.
Yeah.
So that's what I would say.
(53:21):
Come clean and you're worthfighting for.
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
I mean, I would say to um a woman or anyone in a
betrayal situation, because thatis our um story, I would say,
yeah, it is not your fault.
There is some deep wounds in inyour partner that need to be
healed.
Um, and don't carry that.
And there is nothing that youcould do or have done to have
(53:48):
changed that.
And um, you can acceptresponsibility for your
shortcomings and you can gethealthy in that area as well.
You can do all of it, and youshould.
And you can identify the placeswhere you went wrong and the
things that you could have fixedcan fix.
But that isn't, it is not yourfault.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:08):
And you should never carry that.
SPEAKER_00 (54:10):
Yeah, those are those are not responsible for
their decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (54:13):
Their wounds need to be healed and yours.
And then at some point,collectively, you can heal the
brokenness together.
You will not heal overnight.
But one day the pain willsubside and you will start to
see things differently.
And when that happens, followthe trail.
(54:37):
But but don't rush it.
It's not gonna, it just can'thappen overnight.
Those thoughts don't leaveovernight, but please know it it
subsides.
And if you continue to do thework and you really love each
other and you really want yourmarriage and you really want
your family to be whole, keepgoing.
SPEAKER_00 (54:56):
Yeah.
I I remember um our therapist atthe beginning told us this is
gonna be at least a three tofive year journey of healing.
And I remember thinking, okay,three years.
Yeah, we'll be good in threeyears.
We're gonna be a little bitmore.
SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
No, he was like one year.
SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
Yeah, we'll be good in a year.
Because I obviously I was naive.
SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
Yeah, one year in, I'm still randomly dry heaving
in the car for no reason.
I'm like, I don't know if it's aone-year process.
SPEAKER_00 (55:24):
But at the end of the day, he's like, I remember
him telling us it's gonna be uhit could be five, it could be
longer.
There's there's no likeeverybody's different.
And he goes, but but it's gonnabe at least three or three to
five years before you startfeeling a sense of normalcy.
There'll be great moments alongthe way, and there'll be some
bad moments along the way, butit's gonna take years, and that
(55:46):
can seem daunting to think, man,uh so five years from now, we're
still gonna be battling throughthis.
But but at the same time, thosefive years, man, you the there's
been long days, but those fiveyears have flown by.
SPEAKER_01 (56:03):
Oh my gosh.
I would also say this it peoplesay, like, oh, it'd just be
easier to go.
No, it wouldn't.
No, it wouldn't.
It they're both gonna be hard.
They're both gonna be hard andboth require a ton of healing
work.
And this is what we're from thevery beginning, and I really
felt like it came from the Lord,but I don't know.
It could have just been somebodytelling me this.
(56:26):
I felt like it was choose yourhard.
You can go or you can stay.
They're both gonna be incrediblydifficult.
So, what do you what hard do youwant?
Do you want to work hard andhave a healthy whole marriage
and family?
Or do you want it to beincredibly difficult doing it
alone and choose?
(56:48):
It's not gonna be easier toleave.
It's not gonna be easier to runoff with an affair partner.
You're just gonna be back inthis situation again, going
through all of these thingsagain.
SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
Like it's not Yeah, a relationship that started on
lies probably will end in lies.
SPEAKER_01 (57:03):
That's like in marriage helpers, when they
talked about limerence, Ithought if I could tell any
person in limerence thesefeelings are going to go away
and you are gonna desperatelydesire your old life.
You're desperately going todesire your family, your spouse.
Please understand whenever thesefeelings end, these feelings of
(57:28):
wanting to be with this personend, you are gonna be in a place
where you desperately wish youhad never done that.
SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:36):
And please understand it goes away in any
relationship.
That feeling, that feeling oflike, I can't get enough of you
of limerence, it goes away.
And then you're stuck with theperson who destroyed what you
had.
SPEAKER_04 (57:51):
Yeah, thank you both so much.
Such a powerful story, and Iknow it's gonna help so many
people.
I'm glad and honored to knowboth of you and for you to share
this with so many people.
All right.
I'm gonna start with easyquestions.
Can you tell me your names?
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
I'm Aaron Garcia.
SPEAKER_04 (00:08):
And I'm Raina Garcia.
How long have y'all beenmarried?
25 years.
25 years.
Like you've hit 25 years.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Yes.
We'll be at 26 years in June.
SPEAKER_04 (00:17):
Okay.
How many kids do you have?
Five.
Yeah?
Aging from 35 to 6 years old.
So there's a kid that's 10 yearsolder than what you that was 10
years old when you got married.
Yeah.
She is adopted into our family.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
She came in as a teenager.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_04 (00:37):
So how would you describe your marriage for the
past 25 years?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Well.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Let's see.
We had a good marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
You know, we had kids, we had consistent work.
Our health was usually good.
So from the outside looking in,we had a we had a good marriage.
Like we have a lot of fun.
We have fun together.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Love playing games and adventuring and yeah, be
best friends.
Like, yeah.
If I want to hang out, if Icould hang out with anyone in
the world, I would always pickAaron because he is my best
friend.
He knows me.
I don't have to fake anything.
It's just easy.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Yeah, it it seemed like it was a great marriage.
I think the older we get, themore we look back and see, maybe
see some things.
SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
But the cracks and the but we, you know, we got
married very young.
Uh we were 18 and no, 19 and 21years old when we got married.
We're just kids still growingup.
And so yeah, the older we get,the more we can identify like
the like, oh, that probablywasn't as healthy as we always
(01:48):
had thought it was.
But in hindsight, overall, we'vehad a fun, like a good yeah, a
lot of great memories.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Looking through old photo photos, you see a lot of
these fun times.
And I don't remember a lot oflike really negative moments in
our marriage.
I just don't.
And so I think from the outsidelooking in, we had a great, a
great marriage.
Um for the last 25 years.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
What were those cracks?
Um, I would probably say justlike um past like traumas and
pain and hurt and you know,childhood stuff, you know, that
compounded.
And when you get married, it isnot the answer to your problems.
It makes it like magnifies theproblems.
(02:41):
So I would say like early on,things that had definitely been
issues like growing up that wedidn't recognize were like
following us into our marriage.
And then as you get older,you're like, oh man, that is
definitely a product of myupbringing that I brought that
anger or, you know, thosedifferent things into the
(03:02):
marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
But one of the things that the crack that was
in our marriage that was um thatRaina didn't know anything about
was my um addiction topornography.
You know, being exposed topornography when I was like 12
years old.
And just dealing, just doingthat in my own life, thinking it
was normal, like it was part ofwhat every guy does and what
(03:26):
every guy's involved with.
It didn't seem like it was aproblem.
So I never felt a need to reallytell anybody.
And so thinking it wasn't reallya big deal, looking back at it,
that was a major crack thatcaused a lot of issues between
us over the years that probablyseemed like they came out of
nowhere, but obviously they werethey did have source to it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
Because of the background I came from, the way
that he treated me felt verygood.
Until you get older and you sunderstand what we were going
through healing, and I'm like,oh my gosh, this isn't normal
and this isn't okay.
This is literally a product ofhis addiction to porn.
Like the ways that our intimacywas, and pressures and weird
(04:14):
things were all things I thoughtwere normal.
Were him pursuing you.
Yes, what was him, yes, but theywere not, and nor were they
healthy.
Um, but because I think I camefrom such a background of seeing
like just a wild marriage, Ithought like this is how
(04:37):
marriage is, and this isbeautiful because outside of
those moments, we had a greatmarriage, like we really loved
each other and it felt reallygreat.
But then through the healingprocess, it's like, oh my gosh,
that isn't normal.
And it isn't, it wasn't healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
You know, I thought as a young man, you know,
battling that that secret, um,thinking that there was nothing
wrong with it.
Um, but I also thought that, youknow, like every I think a lot
of young men that I talk to say,like, well, when I get married,
I won't need it anymore.
It's not gonna be a thing.
(05:14):
It won't even matter becauseI'll I'll have a solution to
that desire.
And the reality was that justwasn't real.
SPEAKER_04 (05:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
And so thinking that it would change, and it never
did, um, definitely caused someissues.
And you know, my mom and dadobviously did the very best they
could to raise us.
Um, they loved us.
I felt like I look remember as akid, I thought I had the best
life.
I thought I had the best life.
And but one of the things that Irealized that my my dad taught
(05:45):
me was, you know, our businessis our business.
We don't need to be tellingpeople what we're going through.
It's not their business.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
And trying to be protective of privacy um taught
me a lesson of I'm not tellinganybody anything because nobody
needs to know what I'm goingthrough.
It's not their business.
And that included my wife.
It included people that werearound me that were trying to be
like my accountability friends.
(06:14):
Um, it just wasn't theirbusiness.
So I never opened up about anystruggles um in my life because
again, I I just had learned mywhole life that it's not their
business.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
So you didn't know at all.
Yeah, imagine being married toyour best friend for 25 years
and we know everything abouteach other.
And I had no clue.
No, absolutely no clue.
I never crossed my mind.
I trust him so deeply.
I if it came up in likeconversation with friends at
church, like, oh, they'rewalking through this because it
(06:48):
was never, I would never think,oh, maybe I should ask Aaron if
he's doing because he why hewould why.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Well, you you asked me before, and I was like, nah,
thing for me.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
So there, yes, like it's like I feel so bad for her.
Like, that must be so hard.
Um, and then like there weretimes where he would like make
me think that this is it's fineif guys do.
All guys do it.
It's totally normal, it'stotally bad.
It's not harmful, it's nothurting anybody if they want to
(07:21):
do it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
No, we didn't.
No, this is like pre-I I alwayshad a very gracious um
perspective on it because when Iwould talk to guys that were
struggling with it, I wouldalways like, hey man, let's walk
through this together.
But you know, it is it's it'snormal.
SPEAKER_01 (07:37):
Yes, so I I started believing that watching porn
wasn't that harmful.
Everybody just does it.
Is that crazy?
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
But I really but I really thought that.
I thought it the religiouspeople had a problem with it.
But like in culture and society,because you hear like like sex
therapists or doctors talk aboutoh yeah, if if it helps you,
great, do it, watch it, beinvolved, engaged in it,
whatever.
So you're thinking, well, theworld says that this is okay,
(08:08):
and these are real doctors, notlike some spiritual guy.
So then you think, but you know,and and people openly talk about
it on TV and just accept andmedia.
So you're just like uh it's nota problem, it's just more of a
spiritual problem, but it's notlike a a a health issue or a
mental health issue.
SPEAKER_04 (08:27):
And you were a pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
I was, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:30):
And so you were holding these two things in
tension of well, this is whatthe world is saying is okay,
versus like what did you think?
Did you did you think that itwas permissible scripture-wise?
I don't know a better way to putthat.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Well, I think there was a point where because when I
this is when we were very young.
And I think there was a pointwhere I realized this is not,
this is not godly, it's notokay.
And no matter what, no matterwhat a doctor says on TV, like
this is something that is notright.
It's not respectable to my wife.
But yeah, I, you know, at thetime I was a young pastor, um,
(09:07):
battling that in my own private,yeah, secret life, thinking it
wasn't an issue.
And then I came to a point whereI realized it is an issue, it's
not okay, but I'm gonna beat it.
I'll take care of it, I'llhandle this.
I'll I'll just my own willpower.
Yeah, my own willpower, I'llstop it.
Nobody needs to know, I'll justfix it.
Plus, if people know, you know,now you know the spiritual
(09:31):
dynamic of it to where if you'rea pastor and you come out and
you tell people I'm strugglingwith pornography, well, now you
lose um maybe not your job, butyou definitely lose a lot of
respect.
If somebody knows you strugglewith something like pornography,
they're not gonna want to listento what you have to say about
the Bible.
And so now it became a privatebattle of saying, I can get over
(09:54):
this.
Um, I definitely can't afford tolose that because if I do, it
could cost us our job.
And we depend on that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
And so it was you kind of have that inner battle.
Um, and this was early on inministry when we were when we
were younger.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
So when did you find out?
Um, I didn't find out untilD-Day, till my D-Day of five
years ago.
Yeah, and that is when that isliterally the first I had ever
heard of um, yeah.
His porn addiction and then theaffair and all of that, all of
(10:33):
it one time.
SPEAKER_04 (10:35):
So y'all had been married for 20 years, best
friends, things were going well,but ultimately there came a day
where you found out that he hadbeen hiding things that you
didn't know about.
When you first heard that he hadbeen messaging with another
(10:56):
woman, how did you what did youthink and how did you feel?
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
I thought, no way, impossible.
Like, no.
I um as it started to settle inand I read the messages, that's
when I'm I'm not, it's kind of ablur.
Yeah, it's a little bit of ablur.
(11:22):
I feel like if you want to know,like in my body, it felt like an
out-of-body experience.
Like my brain could not processthat this would happen to my
family or my husband.
Like I just, yeah.
How did you approach him aboutit?
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
I remember vividly.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
She called me and I was I waited a while because I
was like, This is just this isso weird.
Like, there's no way.
Nah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
I remember that day because I was I was working uh
for my friend's company on theside um of the church.
Um and she called me and I was Ihad just finished doing uh
servicing a store.
And I was getting in the truckand I was leaving.
She calls me and says, What areyou doing?
(12:16):
I go, I just finished thisstore.
And she was like, Are you surethat's where you are?
And I was like, Well, yeah,where else would I be?
She's like, How long has thisbeen going on?
I'll never forget it.
Because I've never, there'snever been a moment in my life
where I've caused her more pain.
(12:39):
It was in that or began to causemore pain because again, it was
there was some delayed andstaggered revelations over the
next weeks.
Um but in that moment, that waswhere her worst nightmare came
true, and I'll never forget itbecause I just realized how
deeply I hurt her.
(13:01):
And she asked me the questions,and I remember trying to think
how can I how can I ease this asmuch as possible, but but then
she's like, Yeah, I don'tbelieve you.
And then I I remember finallysaying, Okay, this is this is
the truth.
And that was the that startedeverything, and it was the the
(13:24):
reason why it was so difficultfor me was because it hurt her
so much.
And I remember hearing thisdesperation in her voice, or
this there's a there's a tone toa voice that's that's not used
any other time.
And you could hear it, and Ijust remember thinking, I can't
believe I did.
(13:45):
I in fact, I remember going backin my memory to when I started
my um those moments or thosethose failures, thinking I can
never come back from this.
There's no way I've made thisdecision and it can never be
reversed.
Thinking I wish I could go backto that moment and never do this
(14:08):
to her ever, you know, and andum I just remember that that
I'll I'll literally never forgetthat phone call.
Um and I remember all I wantedto do was get to her so I could
try and talk through it, um,figure it out, you know.
Cause, you know, I I think formaybe I don't know if this is
(14:31):
just a guy thing, but you alwayswant to try and fix it.
Like, how can we fix this?
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
I could not tell you how I felt because I was in such
a state of shock.
Like literal shock.
Like my brain couldn't processanything.
I think I spent an entire yearin freeze.
I spent weeks vomiting just overand over and over with I lost a
whole bunch of weight.
Uh, my family all came in to bewith me because I couldn't, I
(15:00):
had a baby.
Bania was um our youngest wasjust a baby.
And so I they came in to helpme.
And I think my I cannot describethe way I felt.
It was just the most intensepain and confusion that I have
(15:20):
ever felt in my life.
If you've never experienced it,I don't even know what to liken
it to.
It was just intense.
And I would, even for an entire,what was like a whole year, even
when we began our healingjourney, we would just be
sitting there watching TV and Iwould start dry heaving for no
(15:41):
reason.
And it was just like nervoussystem, just like things would
come up and I would just withouteven, I would just start dry
heaving, just throw up.
And I mean, it was yeah, it wasintense.
And there, and there wereperiods of anger, you know,
looking my baby in the eyes,being like, how could anybody do
(16:04):
this with this with thissituation with our family?
Like, how could anybody do thisto them?
That those moments producedanger in me because I wanted to
protect them from their pain.
Like, I'll figure it out, butlike, how are they?
They're they I have two littleones.
(16:26):
Like, how are they gonna dothis?
So, like there was a lot offeelings, but mostly for a
while, just straight shock.
Were you all together the wholetime, or did you ever separate?
I asked Aaron to move out.
Um, and he moved out forprobably like three months-ish.
Um, I think when we finally, itwas because of our little ones
(16:49):
that um they were just soconfused and didn't know how to
navigate, and it was hard toexplain to them without giving
them details of what washappening.
And it was more for them thananyone to have dad back in the
house.
And then we decided to move.
Like, if we're really gonna trythis, we probably need to not be
(17:10):
here anymore.
And so we packed it up and wemoved here to at least try.
And I didn't put my skin in thegame yet.
I wasn't there yet when wemoved, I wasn't all the way in
yet.
I just needed, I was still sostuck that I just, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
Did y'all ever consider divorce?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Every day for like I know you did.
Sorry, yes.
I mean it to be completelyhonest, it wasn't until like two
years in that I was like, I amin love with my husband and I'm
gonna do, I'm gonna match hishealing work, you know, because
(17:56):
and even not still, but eventhen there would be days where
thoughts would creep in, dates,moments that you know were that
were connected to a bad memorythat I was like, never mind, I
can't do this.
I just literally can't do it.
Like we would just be better.
I can't live always having to donervous system work.
(18:17):
I can't live constantly tryingto like feel safe.
Like I can't do that anymore.
So there were many times thatAaron was all in and doing all
the right things and just likekilling it in his recovery work
and being so supportive, anddays where I was like, I don't
(18:39):
think I can stay married to thisman.
But you did.
I did.
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
And I'm so glad I did.
You mentioned a minute ago, aminute ago, Aaron, that you
you'd heard that saying, like,you had had an affair, you had
done these things.
And for so many people,biblically, non-biblically,
whether Christians or not, a lotof people say, like, oh, once
you've had an affair, it's over.
Like you were saying, like, themarriage is over.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
Um, I don't, I don't agree.
Um, and that's I think that'swhere the tension is now because
the reason why I never got helpis because as a as a pastor, um,
I was afraid to lose everything.
I and again, I was 40 years old,and I didn't know how to do
(19:29):
anything else.
But be a pastor.
But be a pastor.
And I was like, I know this iswrong.
I know it.
And I battled that.
Like, how do you how do youjustify ministering and then in
another part of your lifebetraying your wife?
Um it it's it's such a weirdplace to be, and there is a lot
(19:51):
of internal battles that go onin the midst of those moments.
Um, but I also knew like I I canI can figure This out.
That's what I thought.
I can figure this out.
I want to do the right thing.
I can figure this out.
But I can't tell anybody becauseif I do, uh, I won't be able to
(20:12):
provide for my family anymorebecause I don't know any other
way to do that.
And I won't be able to have afamily.
I didn't think, I thought forsure, if this ever comes out,
I'm going to lose my family,which was the most important
thing.
I didn't want to lose my family,but I would also lose my ability
to provide for them.
And so I just kept kept it quietto myself.
(20:38):
And I remember one time Rainawas like, something's wrong with
you.
I want you to go see atherapist.
And I remember sitting therethinking, like, I'm not going to
therapist.
And she's like, I think you needto go see somebody.
So we we set it up and I wentand saw a therapist.
And the the he was great, but Iwasn't honest with him.
(21:01):
The whole time he's asking methings.
And I just remember thinking,like, I'll tell you what I want
you to hear, but I will nevertell you what's really going on.
I was so afraid.
Um, because there it's I youknow what you sign up for.
In no way, shape, or form do Ifeel bad for myself for the
consequences of my actions,because I knew what I signed up
(21:25):
for.
I knew that a minister is heldto a higher account.
And I knew that when you makemistakes as a minister, there's
gonna be accountability.
Um so I don't feel bad formyself at all.
Um you know, Raina found outwithout me telling her, which is
uh I I I regret that deeply.
(21:47):
I wish I was the one that wouldhave came clean, but I didn't.
Um and I regret that.
But once it came out, Idesperately wanted to get
healthy because I was like,okay, well, it's out.
You know, I I I remember callingmy my kind of oversight people
(22:10):
on Friday, and I confessed.
So within a matter of an hour ofof confessing to her, I called
our leadership and confessed,and within a couple of hours it
was over.
You know, it was over.
SPEAKER_04 (22:26):
And and again everything that you were scared
of happening happened all withina couple of things.
SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
But not just but not just to him, who had been kind
of preparing himself.
It happened to me and my kids.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Who had about a one-hour notice, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
Of like, no, you're not allowed back in the church,
you're done.
You can't see your friendsanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
You can't don't don't call and contact your
staff.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
But I think that's, you know, again, like that
series of events um was so scaryum and so quick.
But it I feel like I knew I knewit.
I knew that was what was gonnahappen.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
We did not know that was gonna happen.
Yeah, you didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
And that and I regret that.
I, you know, because I I knew inmy mind for a long time leading
up to that, that one day theLord is gonna say, You're done.
SPEAKER_04 (23:19):
Not everyone would have done what you did.
And I mean that in the sensethat like there are people who
get caught in affairs, getcaught in addiction, get caught
in these things, and they choosenot to get healing.
But you did.
And I want to I want to knowwhy.
Like, when why when in some waysof looking at it, it would have
(23:42):
been easier to just walk away,start over, start a new life.
It would have been easier towalk away from the guilt and
walk away from the shame andjust and just move on.
But you didn't.
Why didn't you?
SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
Um, well, first of all, because I love Raina and I
love our kids.
Um I I know this isn'tbelievable.
And I've heard this from a lotof gu uh other guys too that I
worked with over the past fewyears.
Um I loved her the whole time.
And and the idea that yeah,there was some some cracks in
(24:20):
our marriage, but it I didn't dothis because our marriage was
terrible.
I was I was a very unhealthyhuman being.
Um I loved her, and I still loveher.
Um and that's why it was like,okay, I have created this
nightmare situation for my wifeand my kids.
I never want to do that again.
(24:43):
And I want to make right what Imessed up.
And um, I mean, that reallythat's the only that's the only
reason.
And and I hated who I was.
I really hated having um adouble life, if you want to call
it that.
I hated having secrets.
(25:05):
I hated having, because secretskill you.
Um there again, I don't everwant anyone to feel any sort of
sympathy for me.
I am I am the villain of thestory.
I'm very aware of that.
I hurt my family.
I hurt the people we that welove.
I I hurt our church family inthis process.
(25:25):
And so I'm very aware, but I'llI'll never forget sitting there
like with the weight of thelying and the weight of holding
secrets that I mean there weretimes, and I've told you this,
and I remember you saying, like,you're too much of a narcissist
to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
But but I remember literally my angry moments,
yeah, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
But I remember in my in moments being like planning
how I could just kill myself.
I would I would picture this iswhat I'm gonna do because I
don't want my kids to find methis way.
So this is what I'm gonna do,this is how I'm gonna do it.
I just can't do this.
The weight was so heavy.
(26:12):
I'll never forget some momentsome moments where I would sit
there, I'd be driving in my car,and uh I could feel uh like a
real weight on on my like backand my head just pushing me
down.
And in like this, I I as aChristian, I really felt like it
(26:33):
was like a demonic moment wherethe enemy was trying to tell me,
you're not escaping from this.
And if you don't go get what youneed, I'm gonna kill you.
And just this darkness, super uha heaviness that I can't
explain.
(26:54):
Um and I remember thinking,like, I don't want this, I I
don't want this at all, but I'min it, and I don't know how to
get out.
And so when it came out, yeah, Ididn't willingly come out.
Um but when it came out, it waslike, okay, I can I can I can
(27:15):
grab the life preserver.
You know, I I I I I can't, I'mnot afraid anymore because I'm
I'm out.
And so um I know I I don't wantthat to sound selfish.
SPEAKER_04 (27:31):
I think it helps.
I think it helps to be able tolike see each perspective with
empathy because you both wentthrough something hard in
different ways.
When was the first time youremember feeling empathy towards
him?
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Interesting question.
I don't honestly, I do, I don'teven know.
I mean, I'll people all the timeare like, oh my gosh, you're so
graceful and so forgiving.
And I laugh because I'm like,okay.
The amount of times that I andit's it's embarrassing the
(28:12):
amount of times that I justflipped out where I just could
not where something would comeup or like a a little like truth
would come out and I just loseit.
And so whenever everyone's like,oh, you're so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Can I tell a story about the coffee?
No, well, that one's a good onetoo.
I have a feeling the night thatI was sleeping in our guest
bedroom and I was asleep, andshe came in, opened the door,
kicked me out of the house whileI was asleep.
I hadn't even done anything atthe moment.
Because I couldn't in the middleof the night, kicked me out of
(28:48):
the house.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
I'm crawling to the bathroom, throwing up,
processing my life justcompletely.
The grief of losing our churchand my kids and all of these
things.
And I'm processing through them.
I'm crawling to the bathroom tobarf, and he's just snoring in
the other room.
And I'm like, oh no, you're I amsuffering.
(29:11):
And I like I was like, you'reout of here.
I'm not doing this.
What are you doing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
I think a lot of men in this situation that might be
in the early on stages ofrepairing their families, um,
they get they might get a littleimpatient.
SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Or defensive.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
But the thing they they they can't ever forget is
the reason why she is this wayis because of what I did.
This is this is because of mybetrayal that she is having such
a hard time with her nervoussystem, with her emotions, those
types of things.
And I did that.
So I have to, I have to findempathy for that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
There came a point, and I people say time heals
wounds, and I just don't believethat at all.
But there came a point when Isaw Aaron's efforts.
So, like when Aaron, when I wasfeeling overwhelmed, and Aaron,
or I would be riding in a carand there would just be tears.
And I didn't want to like rehashor or make him feel bad, but he
(30:14):
would see my tears and he wouldjust gently reach over and be
like, I'm so sorry that I havemade you feel this way.
Whether it was something he haddone or not, he was taking so
much responsibility and havingso much empathy for me.
There came, there were manymoments where I was like, Holy
cow, this is like, this has tobe so hard for him to have this
(30:38):
amount of humility when I amwalking through that and feeling
these ways or saying thesethings that he would still sit
in it and be like, I'm so sorry,I'm here.
How can I, what can I do?
And it was after, I mean, yearsof that, you know, two years of
just him constant just doing thework and getting healthy and not
(31:04):
and never making me questionlike his intentions or my
safety, that I was like, oh man,I really need to do the work to
match this.
I will I see that God hascompletely transformed this
man's life and he's different.
And I always loved him before,but it's like this is very
(31:26):
attractive to me.
Like, wow.
And everything was just changed.
I mean, even like in I don'tknow, but like on an intimate
level, you know, and a lot ofpeople don't talk about this,
but after betrayal, um, that's avery hard step to take.
It's very difficult.
And a lot of things come alongfor the betrayed partner that
(31:52):
they don't know about or haven'texperienced.
And there might be like weirdnervous system things or
shaking, or um, for me, I wantedto be intimate with my husband,
but I would experience extremeintense pain after in my
stomach, where I would doubleover and just it hurt so bad.
(32:12):
And things like that wouldhappen.
And instead of Aaron being like,oh my gosh, this is he was very
like, I am so sorry.
How can this?
We don't have to do this.
I just what do you need?
He was very like in moments thatwere scary and awkward,
incredibly awkward anduncomfortable.
(32:33):
He was still in it.
Like, how can I help you?
He was doing his own work, I wasdoing my own work, but together
he was always like the humilityand the kindness and the empathy
and the I am so sorry, what canI do?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Was like it changed, it took this scared hard shell,
and he just like slowly pieceswere falling until it was like,
this is safe, this can be happyagain, this can be good again.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Well, I think too, like the when I was not healthy,
like it's the journey of gettinghealthy where I was able to be
aware of those moments and knowhow to respond right and know
like and feel those feelings ofof pain and empathy that maybe I
(33:27):
wasn't capable of before.
And there's a I mean, there's alot of guys out there um that
are that they just they don'thave those feelings.
Well, I know and when whenyou're finally getting healthy,
you're like, wow, um I these arefeelings I'm not used to.
(33:49):
I mean, I used to sit there, youI remember for a while there, I
would just randomly start cryingbecause I'd never I'm not an
emotional person at all.
I would never feel any emotions,and then just it's weird because
I'm not used to that.
And I would start crying, andum, I would ask our my
therapist, and he'd be like, heyman, just let it out.
(34:11):
Just do it, just feel it.
And um, I wasn't, I I know thissounds weird, but it just wasn't
part of me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
I think that came with getting healthy though.
Yeah, it's with going throughrecovery, because I think a lot
of people in our situation, um,like I've spoken with many women
whose husbands have um who havebeen caught in affairs or or um
like porn addictions anddifferent things, and their
husbands are not willing to doany work.
They just want to be forgivenand move forward, like, oh, you
(34:42):
love Jesus, forgive me, let'smove forward.
There's no, there's no work.
SPEAKER_00 (34:46):
Getting caught does not mean you'll stop.
I know a lot of guys that havebeen caught that they're walking
through divorce, they're walkingthrough losing their children,
and they are not willing tostop.
unknown (34:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Um, so being caught is not like, oh, I've been
caught, now I have to stop.
I know a lot of, I mean, I haveover the last five years, I have
met so many men who have beencaught and will not, will not
change.
SPEAKER_04 (35:14):
What would you say?
What would you want to say tothat man right now if he was
sitting here?
He's been caught, he's notstopping.
SPEAKER_01 (35:21):
There is hope.
If you get the right hope,there's hope.
The reason why you're not, it'snot that a lot of men, it's not
that they don't have the desireto stop when they're caught.
It's not that they don't desirethat.
It's that they don't get theright help.
They don't know how to.
So they so they'll try, but thenit's not, it's there's it's not
(35:41):
working because it's not theright thing.
And so I would tell any marriedcouple, your marriage is worth
fighting for.
And if these things havehappened, get the right help.
Start seeking help now.
You cannot heal this on yourown.
You cannot.
Your body and brain cannot heal.
You need guidance.
(36:01):
If you're if the betrayedpartner is battling with
addiction, there has to be realhelp.
Seeking the right help.
Because there is always, I thinkthat marriage can be saved.
I think God can redeem anything.
I think that I think anyone canmake it with the right help.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Yeah.
But you know, a lot of timessomebody might, well, I've been
talking to my friend.
unknown (36:28):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
And it's just not getting any better.
And it's like, yeah, well,that's not the right help.
You need to go to someone whoknows what they're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Yeah.
Well, they say trust is lost inbucket loads and earned in
drops.
Is that what it is?
I think that's what it is.
And so he has slowly sound good.
He's slowly put the drops backin the bucket, you know, the
whole thing dumped.
And it hasn't, it wasn't justlike, oh yeah, we're good.
Like we're in this good.
(36:56):
It was like a very long andslow.
And so I would say to like womenor men in the, you know, if
you're feeling like this is wecan't do this, like, don't rush
it.
Take your time.
Healing is slow.
It's not just like, hey, boom, Iforgive you.
This list go to a movie.
It's nothing like that.
(37:17):
It's a journey.
Take your time.
Have bad days.
Have good days.
This is the thing.
Don't give up.
It is worth fighting for.
Just do not give up becauseyou're gonna have bad days.
You're gonna have days whereyou're sitting there and you
drive for no reason.
You're gonna have days whereyou're just overwhelmed with
flooding.
You're gonna have these dayswhere you look at them and
(37:37):
you're like, I can't do this.
But just keep going.
There is hope you can, you cando it.
Just keep going.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:46):
One of the things I love about y'all's story is it's
such a picture of thisconsistency over time, like
you're talking about.
And you're right.
When when traumas happen, whenhuge changes in your life
happen, it's the consistencyover time of doing the right
things that will rebuild lovethat rebuild that trust that
(38:08):
lead the marriage to ultimatelybe saved and even better than it
was before.
And I love the that there was apressing in, like both of you
could have left, and others inyour shoes have and started new
families, new lives, whatever,but y'all didn't.
(38:31):
And you've done a lot of thishard work and just continued to
do it over time, like even whenit got hard, even when maybe at
times it you were even like youeven resented it.
I don't know, but there's justyou did it and you continued to
do it, and you the other thingthat I hate when I hear people
say is, oh, I would do anythingto save my marriage, but I won't
(38:54):
do that.
SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (38:55):
Like I won't go to counseling or therapy, I won't
do this thing, I won't give upsocial media for three years.
I won't fill in whatever it is.
Yeah.
It's like, but this is your mostimportant earthly relationship.
And in the grand scheme of life,these things aren't like aren't
that big of an ask to save yourfamily.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Yeah.
And that and I felt like itwasn't too big of an ask.
I do think that a lot of womenare um so trusting that when
their husband comes to them andsays, I'm sorry I did this, that
they will just move on.
But I also think that that isone of the worst things that you
can do.
SPEAKER_04 (39:35):
Yeah, not do you have to deal with the problems.
SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
You have to get to the problem.
There is a root to every thereis a root to everything that
happens.
Let's heal the root and thengrow.
Otherwise, we we can't just keepdoing this cycle and then
because I will if we just keptif we did that, like, oh yep, I
forgive, let's keep on, let'sgo.
If I was like that, we would bein this situation.
(40:00):
Again.
And no one can feel that paintwice.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
It's I feel like Dr.
Joe.
I I watched a video not too longago of him talking about putting
up boundaries and safeguards torebuild trust.
But also at the end of the day,you know, we're all human beings
and we're all we're all we allhave the capacity to fail.
But when you set the safeguardsup, you're limiting the
(40:26):
possibility of you doing itagain.
SPEAKER_04 (40:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
You're you're saying, you know, I'm not going
to have big amounts of time thatare unaccountable.
So there's going to be thesesafeguards in place to where
she'll know that she's safe.
That it's not, there's no way Icould just disappear for a
while.
It's we have things in place tomake sure that I'm accountable
(40:51):
to where I'm at.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
And there there's been moments too where um just
like in good in like we'relearning to trust each other,
where I could be like, hey,listen, I'm okay with you.
Like, let's have thisconversation.
Yeah, let's if you are wantingto get back on social media,
let's go ahead and like I feelcomfortable with that.
But he never tried to do thosethings without like having a
(41:15):
conversation.
SPEAKER_03 (41:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
And I had his text messages on my computer, which I
never looked at, but I hadaccess to them.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
And there was, it was And you always have access
to my phone.
Right.
At any moment.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
And same.
But like there was a momentwhere I was like, I these are
annoying me, these popping up.
I'm getting I have to get we'regetting rid of this.
Uh, but just being able to sayto him, like, there there is
full trust here.
Like, I don't I thank you forthis access, but I am, I don't
need this.
Yeah.
And it is annoying trying to domy homework, you know.
(41:51):
But like I definitely encouragepeople, like, stay the course
and stay in it.
Like, it's not gonna be fast.
And there's gonna feelings areso fickle.
And there's gonna be days whereyou are like, no, this is not
like power through that.
It is just a feeling.
It is not, it's not truth.
It's just how you feel at themoment.
(42:12):
And I think a lot of people makeharsh.
I had a friend right aftereverything say, and I was like,
I am not doing this.
This guy is a scumbag.
I he does not deserve me, hedoesn't deserve my kids.
I mean, knee jerk.
I'm like, see ya out of here.
And then a dear friend say,please do not make any decisions
(42:35):
for six months.
Don't do anything for sixmonths.
Get healthy, whatever you gottado, don't make any rash
decisions.
And that was actually one of thegreatest things anyone told me
because I am like in my mind, Iwas like, you're out of here,
bro.
And I didn't care.
(42:56):
I didn't care in the in thebeginning stages, I didn't care
what the Bible said, I didn'tcare what people were saying, I
didn't care what they thoughtabout me.
I was just like, I'm not doingit.
And I took that advice for myfamily, for my kids, and then it
was just a process of untilthose layers were peeled, and I
(43:20):
was like, oh, wait a minute, Ireally love you, and I really do
want to be married to you.
But I mean, those I think peopleneed to know, like, you're gonna
feel better tomorrow or today.
It's gonna take a lot of time.
And if you just stay in it, andif you have those moments of
flooding or like, I this guy,I'm out of here.
(43:42):
Like, go to the right people,seek the right help, and just
stay in it.
Because I feel like if you couldsee how we are together now, um
it's just it's great, it'shealthier, it's more fun.
We're doing more things.
There, there's a level of umrespect and and empathy and
(44:04):
care.
It's just so different.
Where I thought was things Ithought were healthy before.
Now I'm like, oh, I alwayswanted this.
I always wanted this, and I amgetting it now.
And I just think that's justthrough the process and staying
in it.
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Y'all did a lot of things, the therapy, both
individually, all the things.
Um, and then recently, fiveyears into it, you just came to
one of the Maritoper workshops.
How was that five years afterthe crisis?
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
It was great.
SPEAKER_04 (44:37):
Who wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
It was great, and still learned a lot.
And that's the thing.
You're, you know, you canthere's always more to learn.
Yeah.
And there's always more to grow.
SPEAKER_01 (44:46):
We learned a lot about attachment styles, which
was really helpful.
We also learned about likeflooding, which was huge for me
because I could never pinpointhow it felt in those moments of
the deepest pain and grief, andthey came out of nowhere.
They came out of, you know, juston a certain day, or seeing a
(45:09):
certain vehicle or a certainmovie or something like that.
And all of a sudden, from mytoes to my head, I'm just
overwhelmed.
And I just want to get out of mybody.
I want to scream.
And learning about flooding,what I like, I was able to put
like a name to what I wasfeeling in those moments of like
(45:30):
deep trauma and grief.
And so I was like, oh my gosh.
And now I have a word.
Yeah.
Because I feel like trigger issuch a buzzword.
Oh, I was triggered.
Everybody gets triggered byeverything.
Oh, they eat a bad piece ofchicken and they're triggered.
And it's like, I'm like, that'snot the, that's not what it is.
That is not how it feels.
Flooding, that is how it feels.
(45:52):
I cannot get out.
I can't get out of this.
It is so overwhelming.
I don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
For a long time, I was not convinced that you were
gonna stay.
And I was so afraid of her beinglike, this is just too much.
To put the way I feel now.
And it's not, I mean, we've donea lot of work together and we've
grown a lot together.
We've we've been through a lottogether over the last five
(46:21):
years to where we're closer nowthan we've ever been.
We're we're better friends thanwe've ever been.
SPEAKER_01 (46:27):
I think like things like marriage helper, though, is
like you should always beinvesting.
Like you never will never reacha point where we're like, we're
healthy, we're healed, we'redone.
It's like anytime, and I wouldsay that to couples who have
been through things that we'vebeen through and they feel like
they're on the other side, likestuff like this, you should
always be investing in it.
(46:48):
Always because you because aswe're getting older, we're going
through different seasons oflife.
We're now we're we'regrandparents and we have a
little and we have adults and wehave all these things, and in
different seasons of life, eveneven when you're healthy,
there's moments where it's like,oh, how do we navigate this?
Like, how can I care for you andthat?
And that's like for us, we werein such a good place, and then
(47:11):
we go to marriage helpers, andit's like, oh, well, that would
have been useful three yearsago, you know, to apply that.
Like, if there are couples whohave been through what we've
been through, I would just say,get in, get in these, do the
work, just keep the work isnever done.
You should always be investingin that relationship in what
(47:33):
you're doing.
It's just so important, it'sworth fighting for.
SPEAKER_04 (47:37):
And the work probably looks different now
than it did five years ago,right?
It's not, it's not as intensiveor all of the time or invasive
or all-encompassing, but it's sotrue.
Just like with our mentalhealth, our physical health, our
spiritual health, right?
There's always an intentionalitythat should go into it in order
(47:57):
to keep it vibrant and alive andhealthy.
But so many times the marriageis the like the first one to go,
the first one we stop focusingon when life is busy or work is
stressful or whatever it mightbe, because we can get, we can
get complacent.
SPEAKER_01 (48:15):
I think for me, I am thankful that healing doesn't
look like I thought it wouldlook.
Because I thought healing lookedlike um our marriage before,
like back to that happymarriage.
And it is not that healing hasbeen, it's vastly different from
our marriage before, which Ithought was happy.
(48:36):
And by all intents and purposes,it was fine.
But I'm so thankful that itisn't what I thought it was
gonna be.
It's so much deeper and moreconnected and more intimate, not
just intimate sexually, butintimate emotionally.
Um, that it was never before itwas never a thing before that as
(49:00):
deeply emotional, um, which Ithink most women desire.
Most women desire an emotionalintimacy with their husband.
It's like all-encompassing.
And at first I thought, oh,well, we can heal and we'll just
go back to our normal, happy.
And I am just so thinking, well,it is not because this is so
(49:22):
much better.
It's so much more intentional,it's so much more.
There's just so many more betterthings that have come with the
work and the healing.
And I am so glad it looks sodifferent.
Because I to go back, knowingwhat I know now, to go back to
(49:42):
what we had, I would not beinterested in that.
That is not what I what the waythat God designed for us to be.
And so I am very thankful forall of this work that we've
done.
It is so much better than I hadever envisioned it being.
And when we travel together andwhen we, when um things happen
(50:03):
in our life, like I'm doingschool, and Aaron is cooking
dinner and he's putting kids tobed, and he's pitching and and
he's doing things that were notpart of our routine before ever.
Um, there's more of apartnership.
There's more of a, there's justso many things that are so much
better than I could have everimagined.
SPEAKER_04 (50:26):
But you probably never would have thought of when
you first found out abouteverything or when you were
kicking them out of the house at3 a.m.
or or any of those things, butyou're living in in the goodness
of it now.
SPEAKER_01 (50:40):
Yep.
And I will, I would say, like,there are still hard days.
There's still hard moments.
But when you do the work and youdo things like upkeep,
maintenance, marriage helpers,therapy, when you do all of
that, you learn how to stop itbefore it gets to the flooding.
(51:00):
You learn how to regulate beforeit gets to a point where you're
like, I can't do this anymore.
And that's just part of stayingin it and doing the work and
doing the maintenance.
And yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (51:15):
What is something you would say to someone who is
listening who's in each of yourpositions?
So what would you say to the thethe man who is like, I'm hiding
things?
Or what would you say to thewife who's like, I can't trust
him ever again?
SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
I think for someone hiding things, I would remind
them that nothing stays hidden.
And so it's just best that youfind somebody and you start the
process of coming clean and justbeing honest.
Um, I would also say that evenif you're the one who has hurt
(51:57):
your spouse, betrayed yourspouse, or you've had those
secrets, you're worth fightingfor.
Um, you know, in all the thelast five years, um I this a
couple nights ago, we were at aparty and a couple was sitting
across from us.
And I have told people this overthe years, like in our recovery
(52:17):
meetings, like, hey man, you areworth fighting for.
I know that you made a mistake.
And I know that in your story,you're the bad guy, but you're
worth fighting for.
And in all those years, no onehas ever said that to me until a
couple nights ago.
I was at a party, and thiscouple across from me, they
looked at me and go, we justwant you to know that you're
worth it.
And I thought, wow, that likecaught me off guard.
(52:40):
Because I've no one has eversaid that.
Because again, I've I was thethe bad guy in the story, but I
would say that to any man thatis struggling right now.
Like, there's a lot of reasonswhy we fail.
And it's not always becausewe're just these terrible,
horrible human beings.
It's because we're weak and wehave problems or we have
(53:00):
unresolved things in our lives.
Those aren't an excuse for doingwhat we did.
But there is still a level ofgrace for that person to find
healing, and they're worthfighting for, even if they're
the ones that betrayed theirspouse or or um have just made
some bad decisions.
Yeah.
So that's what I would say.
(53:21):
Come clean and you're worthfighting for.
SPEAKER_01 (53:25):
I mean, I would say to um a woman or anyone in a
betrayal situation, because thatis our um story, I would say,
yeah, it is not your fault.
There is some deep wounds in inyour partner that need to be
healed.
Um, and don't carry that.
And there is nothing that youcould do or have done to have
(53:48):
changed that.
And um, you can acceptresponsibility for your
shortcomings and you can gethealthy in that area as well.
You can do all of it, and youshould.
And you can identify the placeswhere you went wrong and the
things that you could have fixedcan fix.
But that isn't, it is not yourfault.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:08):
And you should never carry that.
SPEAKER_00 (54:10):
Yeah, those are those are not responsible for
their decisions.
SPEAKER_01 (54:13):
Their wounds need to be healed and yours.
And then at some point,collectively, you can heal the
brokenness together.
You will not heal overnight.
But one day the pain willsubside and you will start to
see things differently.
And when that happens, followthe trail.
(54:37):
But but don't rush it.
It's not gonna, it just can'thappen overnight.
Those thoughts don't leaveovernight, but please know it it
subsides.
And if you continue to do thework and you really love each
other and you really want yourmarriage and you really want
your family to be whole, keepgoing.
SPEAKER_00 (54:56):
Yeah.
I I remember um our therapist atthe beginning told us this is
gonna be at least a three tofive year journey of healing.
And I remember thinking, okay,three years.
Yeah, we'll be good in threeyears.
We're gonna be a little bitmore.
SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
No, he was like one year.
SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
Yeah, we'll be good in a year.
Because I obviously I was naive.
SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
Yeah, one year in, I'm still randomly dry heaving
in the car for no reason.
I'm like, I don't know if it's aone-year process.
SPEAKER_00 (55:24):
But at the end of the day, he's like, I remember
him telling us it's gonna be uhit could be five, it could be
longer.
There's there's no likeeverybody's different.
And he goes, but but it's gonnabe at least three or three to
five years before you startfeeling a sense of normalcy.
There'll be great moments alongthe way, and there'll be some
bad moments along the way, butit's gonna take years, and that
(55:46):
can seem daunting to think, man,uh so five years from now, we're
still gonna be battling throughthis.
But but at the same time, thosefive years, man, you the there's
been long days, but those fiveyears have flown by.
SPEAKER_01 (56:03):
Oh my gosh.
I would also say this it peoplesay, like, oh, it'd just be
easier to go.
No, it wouldn't.
No, it wouldn't.
It they're both gonna be hard.
They're both gonna be hard andboth require a ton of healing
work.
And this is what we're from thevery beginning, and I really
felt like it came from the Lord,but I don't know.
It could have just been somebodytelling me this.
(56:26):
I felt like it was choose yourhard.
You can go or you can stay.
They're both gonna be incrediblydifficult.
So, what do you what hard do youwant?
Do you want to work hard andhave a healthy whole marriage
and family?
Or do you want it to beincredibly difficult doing it
alone and choose?
(56:48):
It's not gonna be easier toleave.
It's not gonna be easier to runoff with an affair partner.
You're just gonna be back inthis situation again, going
through all of these thingsagain.
SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
Like it's not Yeah, a relationship that started on
lies probably will end in lies.
SPEAKER_01 (57:03):
That's like in marriage helpers, when they
talked about limerence, Ithought if I could tell any
person in limerence thesefeelings are going to go away
and you are gonna desperatelydesire your old life.
You're desperately going todesire your family, your spouse.
Please understand whenever thesefeelings end, these feelings of
(57:28):
wanting to be with this personend, you are gonna be in a place
where you desperately wish youhad never done that.
SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (57:36):
And please understand it goes away in any
relationship.
That feeling, that feeling oflike, I can't get enough of you
of limerence, it goes away.
And then you're stuck with theperson who destroyed what you
had.
SPEAKER_04 (57:51):
Yeah, thank you both so much.
Such a powerful story, and Iknow it's gonna help so many
people.
I'm glad and honored to knowboth of you and for you to share
this with so many people.
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