January 8, 2025 • 30 mins
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Trust can be a fragile and complex component of any relationship, as many of us have discovered through personal experience. Imagine rebuilding your relationship after a significant breach of trust; it’s not impossible, but it requires effort and understanding. Today, we unravel the hidden layers of betrayal, from infidelity to financial deceit, and the emotional upheaval that follows. By sharing examples of these betrayals and exploring the motivations behind deceptive actions, we'll equip you with strategies to address the emotional scars left behind and begin the journey of rebuilding trust.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Trust me.
How many times have you heardsomebody say that and the first
thing you thought was no way inthe world am I going to trust
you?
It might be because you thinkthey're trying to sell you
something that's way tooexpensive or that's not as good
as it appears to be, or becausesomebody is trying to convince
you to do something that you'revery wary about.
I don't think I should do that.
(00:21):
Or somebody's trying to leadyou to believe something and
you're thinking it's just notright.
I can't buy into this, becauseI'm not sure that this is true.
And yet they say trust me,don't you trust me?
As a matter of fact, sometimes,when they ask that question,
don't you trust me?
It can be one of the mostmanipulative questions that you
(00:44):
can ever hear, and so ifsomebody says that to me, don't
you trust me?
The first thing I'm going to dois back up and say what's
behind that?
What is the motivation behindasking me that question?
Well, let's talk about it.
Hi, I'm Dr Joe Beam.
This is Relationship Radio,welcome.
Let's talk about trust, andparticularly in this particular
(01:05):
episode, we're going to betalking about trust when it
comes to somebody violating themarriage vow, and now you want
to put the marriage backtogether, or at least one of you
wants to put the marriage backtogether, and when you say, oh,
you're talking about adultery,but there are other things that
can violate the vow just as wellGambling haul the money away
(01:27):
and the other person doesn'tknow it.
You've done it secretly.
I remember working with onecouple many years ago.
He had gotten several creditcards she knew nothing about and
he had maxed them all out,gambling at sports bars.
She eventually found out whenthis guy obviously not thinking
very clearly went to apply for amortgage so they could buy a
new house, the creditorsinstantly found out about the
(01:51):
other cards that she knewnothing about.
She found out about it and shewas livid.
You can understand, you canimagine that right.
So it could be something likethat.
It could be something like Ihad some secret from back in my
life and, because we're marriedand I love you and I trust you,
I shared my secret with you,hoping that nobody else ever
(02:11):
hears about it ever, maybe.
It's something I did when I wasfive years old that I'm still
ashamed about.
Or 15 years old I wish I hadn'tdone, or five years old it was
done to me and I don't wantanybody to ever know.
It happened to me, and so it'slike I've trusted you with that
information.
But you violate my trust in thesense that you tell someone
else.
And now it's public knowledgeout there, or at least public
(02:35):
enough that I know that certainpeople know about it.
And now I'm thinking how can Iever trust you again?
I told you my deepest, darkestsecret and, rather than
protecting it and cherishing it,you shared it with somebody
else.
You may have said to thatperson that don't you tell
anybody, which is probably whatthey told the person that they
(02:56):
told it to Don't you tellanybody.
And it went on that way downthe line.
So, yes, it can be adultery, itcan be gambling, it can be
pornography that's hidden, itcan be violating the sanctity of
a secret that you've beenholding that other people really
don't need to know.
It can be any number of things,but what happens is the other
person looks at you and goes Idon't think I'm going to ever
(03:19):
trust you again.
When I'm working with a couplewhere infidelity has occurred,
often the person who has beencheated on will say something
like this you don't know theworst part about this.
Of course I listen because Ineed to hear what they feel, but
most of the time I can predictwhat they're going to say.
Next, the most difficult partof this, the most terrible part
(03:40):
of this, the part of this thathurts more than anything else,
is he lied to me or she lied tome.
I trusted him, I trusted herand they violated that trust.
They took advantage of my trustand when I began to know that
something was happening and itbecame very suspicious because
of circumstances and situationsand I would ask questions, it
(04:01):
would be like well, trust me,don't you trust me?
I would never do that.
And then they found out laterthat they did.
So what is trust anyway?
Trust is a belief system,believe it or not Trust if I
trust you, it means that Ibelieve that the decisions that
you make and the actions thatyou take will be for the benefit
(04:26):
of our relationship and orbenefit me.
I want to say it again If Itrust you, I believe that the
decisions you make and theactions you take will be for the
benefit of our relationship andor me.
If I distrust you, it meansthat I believe that the
(04:47):
decisions that you make and theactions that you take will be
for what you believe is yourbenefit, but will be harmful to
our relationship or harmful tome.
In other words, you may feelit's benefiting you, but you
(05:09):
know, you know that it's harmingour relationship or it's
harming me, and that's whatdistrust says.
I can't distrust what you, Icannot trust what you think, I
cannot trust what you do, Icannot trust what you believe,
because of the fact that I'mconvinced that you think
primarily about you and youdon't really care about the
welfare of a relationship or mywelfare.
So that's the differencebetween trust and distrust.
(05:31):
Now, usually mistrust anddistrust are used
interchangeably.
I prefer to differentiate alittle bit.
Mistrust for me is like I don'tknow whether I can trust you or
not.
So trust, I believe that yourdecisions and actions are a
benefit of our relationship.
Distrust I believe they'regoing to only benefit you and
actually harm our relationship.
(05:52):
Mistrust is I don't really know.
Now again, these are usuallyinterchangeable, but in my way
of thinking, those are twodifferent things.
So we can talk about all ofthese things of thinking.
Those are two different things.
So we can talk about all ofthese things.
But for the sake of time, let'sjust key into infidelity,
because that one kind of talksabout a whole bunch of deep
(06:12):
emotions and involvements and wecan learn from the principles
from that about how to apply toall the other things I just
talked about.
And so if one spouse cheats as amatter of fact, think about
that word.
And so if one spouse cheats asa matter of fact, think about
that word.
We call it cheating because ofthe fact that we see it as being
dishonest, that we see it asbeing only for your benefit and
(06:33):
actually to my detriment.
It's hurting me, it's causingme pain, harm in some kind, and
so that's why we tend to call itcheating I cheated on her, she
cheated on me, or whatever itmight be.
And that that's why we tend tocall it cheating I cheated on
her, she cheated on me, orwhatever it might be.
And that word's prettysignificant.
(06:53):
As a matter of fact, I rememberone guy in one of our workshops
it was one of our in-personworkshops a few years ago that
other people in the workshopwere saying things like and, by
the way, we don't make you tellthis, people sometimes want to
volunteer it and we make it avery safe place if they do, but
nobody's forced to talk aboutwhat they did, and nobody can
talk about what their spouse did.
(07:13):
We don't allow that.
But some people were talkingabout what they had done and
they were using the word affair.
This one guy turned to thegroup and said I'm not going to
refer to mine as an affair, I'mgoing to call it adultery.
He said I'm a religious man.
I follow the Bible as best Ican, or at least I have done so
(07:35):
most of my life, but I have notdone so.
Recently I committed adultery,and so he used the word.
It was pretty powerful, prettystrong when most people use a
softer word and we actually useit in our workshops the softer
word the affair, so as not to beoffensive to people.
Now, in that situation, he wasin our workshop because he was
wanting to put his marriage backtogether.
(07:56):
His wife wasn't sure if that'swhat she wanted to do or not,
but because she believed atheart he was a good man who had
done a bad thing, she wanted toat least explore the possibility
of.
Can we figure out how thishappened?
Was it me, was it him?
Was it life, was itcircumstances?
(08:17):
I want to know what led to this.
And then she also wanted toknow can we get past this?
Can I possibly in any shape,fashion or form be able to
forgive him to the point wherethat it's not going to be eating
at me in my heart and my mindfor the rest of my life?
And so that's why they were atthe workshop.
(08:38):
By the way, quite a few couplescome to our workshop for that
very same reason, whether it wasthe husband who cheated or the
wife who cheated, they come forthat.
Now I hope you heard me say aminute ago we make it very safe.
We don't say, okay, tell usyour wicked, terrible sin that
you committed.
We don't do that.
And if somebody does decide totell us something about what
(09:00):
they've done, we don't attackthem, we don't accuse them.
We try to understand and tohelp them.
Sometimes it makes some peopleupset I want you to chew my
spouse out, beat him up, let himhave it.
Well, no, if you want people todo that, I'm sure there are
people who will.
But we're trying to help yousave your marriage, not just end
it by destroying it.
(09:20):
So, as they're doing that, then, dr Beam, suppose they learn
how they got into this situation, and almost always they do.
Suppose they learn how never toget in that situation again.
And they do, and suppose theylearn a process where they can
actually forgive, to the pointwhere they can get past it,
(09:40):
where it's not going to hauntthem the rest of their lives.
Yeah, they learn how to do thattoo, but how in the world are
they going to trust the otherperson again?
Now, one of the things that kindof sets us apart is the fact
that I continually read researchabout relationships.
That's not the part that setsus apart.
Many people do that.
(10:00):
But I read not just aboutpersonal relationships, like a
husband and wife, a parent and achild, best friend, whatever.
I also read about relationshipsin other situations.
So, for example, I'll readabout relationships in
businesses, about therelationship between this
company and that company and howthey can build it, how they can
(10:21):
maintain it and if it isviolated, then how can they
restore it and be able to trusteach other again.
And so I read about howcorporations and companies do
that.
I read about how nations, ifthey ever do that, can do that.
I read about how even people indifferent political parties can
(10:41):
do that rarely but occasionallysomehow are able to do that.
And so we're not just lookingat husbands and wives, we're
looking at relationships inevery kind of category you can
imagine.
You say why?
Because it's amazing how muchyou can learn when you look at
it from different perspectives,not looking at it the same way
(11:02):
all the time.
Let's look at it from thesepeople's eyes Now.
Let's see it through thesepeople's eyes Now.
One of the things that wedeveloped by reading about
corporate America actually is aprocess called calculative trust
.
You say now, what does thatmean?
It means I don't trust you, Idistrust you, but I'm willing to
(11:24):
try to put the relationshipback together.
But a crucial part of puttingthe relationship back together
is that we have to reestablishtrust, and we can't do that just
by you saying, hey, I'm sorry,I did that, everything's fine,
I'll never do it again, trust me.
I wouldn't buy into that.
Why would you?
(11:45):
And so calculative trustbasically says all right, we're
going to set some parameters,we're going to set some
conditions and criteria and thenwe're going to set some way to
monitor that.
And if you fulfill thesecriteria, if you meet these
conditions, if you do whatyou're supposed to do in a way
(12:07):
where I can know for a fact thatthat is happening, not in just
the things that you do, but inthe things that you must not do,
and I can have some way to knowthat so that I am not just
taking your word, I can monitorit.
Then that's called calculativetrust.
We're going to calculate a wayto build a process where I can
(12:32):
eventually trust you again Nowin a corporation.
It might be something like youmishandled some of the money we
gave you to do this particularproject that we subcontracted
you to do, and so one thing wewill do in our calculative trust
is we can have our auditorscome in every three months and
(12:54):
look at your books to make surethat everything is kosher, the
way it should be.
You say, well, wouldn't that beoffensive to the offending
company, like we don't want youlooking at our books?
Yes, it would be offending tothem if they have something to
hide.
It would not be offensive tothem if they're on the up and up
and saying we made some errorsthere, we made some poor
(13:16):
decisions, but we're going toprove to you that we're going to
do it right this time.
Calculative trust.
So let's put that with a husbandand a wife, and there are two
sides to this.
There's the person who did thecheating and there's the person
who was cheated on.
Now let's say that it was thewife who did the cheating.
She's the one who had theaffair, the infidelity, and she
(13:40):
has come back to her husband andsaid I want to put this back
together.
And he's saying I don't know ifI can ever forgive you for that
.
I've run into that situation somany times.
I don't know if I can everforgive you for that and I don't
know if I could ever trust youagain because of the fact that
you pulled it off so smoothly.
I mean, you were able to dothat and completely blindside me
(14:04):
where I never knew what wasgoing on.
If you can that smoothly dosomething to hurt me, how can I
ever trust you again?
And we'd say well, let's putyou through the workshop so you
can find out how it happened,what happened, why it happened,
how you can repair that anddetermine the emotions between
(14:25):
the two of you, how you canfigure out all the methodology
of reconciliation, the thingsyou need to do.
Her violation of the covenant bycheating, by sleeping with some
(14:51):
other guy, not to absolve thatthere's guilt there.
But how can you put it backtogether without either one of
you feeling that he or she is aslave, that, oh my goodness, the
rest of my life I'm going to betreated badly because of this.
Because I did have one womantell me one time several years
ago the only reason I stayedmarried to him is so I could
remind him every day for therest of his life how evil he is.
(15:12):
We won't help people do thatNow.
As part of this process, thenthey're going to have to build
some kind of a system where eachperson will buy into it
completely, and it's going to bea calculative trust process
that will last for some time.
It might last for six months,it might last for 18 months.
(15:35):
Now, it can't last forever.
Trust me, I'll come back.
Oh, I said, trust me.
I think that's hilarious.
Trust me in the sense that itcan't last forever, and I'm
going to show you why in a fewminutes.
Okay, so what kind ofcalculative trust?
Okay, if she's the one thatcheated and we find out?
Okay, part of that was becauseof the fact that she was hanging
(15:56):
out with these divorced womenand she would go out with them
at least once every other week,if not every week, and they
would go out to a bar togetherand drink, and these women
sometimes would allow themselvesto be picked up by guys.
And while she was the faithfulhousewife, that lifestyle began
to affect her.
And one night some guy who wasparticularly charming,
(16:17):
particularly handsome, whateverit might be, somehow convinced
her to go to a hotel with him.
And she had a night with himI'll be kind with my words here
and she found it titillating,she found it exciting and she
tells herself well, I'm still inlove with my husband, I would
never, ever leave him, I'm goingto stay in this.
But, man, that was exciting.
(16:38):
And so she meets him again, andthen maybe again, and maybe it
finally turns into what we calllimerence, where she finds
herself feeling quote madly inlove with the other guy.
Or maybe it never turns intothat, maybe it's just what we
call a high opportunity, lowinvolvement affair.
In other words, it's reallyeasy to do it and I don't have
to commit myself in any way.
Whatever the reason might beand we help people figure that
(17:00):
out in our workshop which is it?
What is it?
But whichever it might be, shegets caught.
She now wants to try to save themarriage and the husband's
saying how can I trust you again?
You told me all those nightsthat when you came home a little
bit late, it's because one ofthem had a problem and you
stayed to help her out andlisten.
You lied so successfully that Ibelieved everything that you
(17:23):
said and you had me completelyconvinced that I was the bad guy
for suspecting anything.
And now here we are in asituation where you want to come
back and I'm saying how can Itrust you when you can lie so
effectively?
And you did something thatneither of us ever thought you
would do.
All right, now there's a lotmore involved in the
(17:43):
reconciliation process.
I'm just talking about the trustpart here, just the trust.
And you say about the trustpart here, just the trust.
And you say what would you do?
Calculative trust, all right,what must not happen?
You must not hang out withthose women anymore as part of
the calculative trust, becauseit was their influence that led
(18:03):
you to the situation where youdid the thing that you had
promised you would never do.
Therefore, I cannot trust youif you're still doing things
with them and if she were to saywell, what if I spend some time
with them, but at the park, notat the bar.
You know, sometimes we justmeet there and sit and just talk
to each other.
(18:25):
The husband might say I won'taccept that as part of my
calculative trust, you can haveno contact with them whatsoever.
And what I mean is no text, noemails, no meeting in the park,
and if you bump into them in thegrocery store, you say hello
and you keep going, you're onthe next aisle very quickly, and
(18:47):
I need to know that you will dothat because I don't trust them
.
Now, another thing is you canhave no more contact with that
guy.
She said I'm done with him, I'mover with him, wonderful, but
you can have no contact with him, for whatever reason.
And so it might be well, he hasmy cell phone number.
I can't help it.
He calls me.
(19:07):
Okay, one part of the calculatedtrust might be then we need to
change your cell phone number,but that's going to be difficult
because of the fact that I'vegot so many things tied to that
cell phone number businessthings, personal things, apps on
my phone, paying our bills, etcetera, et cetera.
That's going to be a monstrousproduct or project.
I should say that's going to bea monstrous product or project.
I should say, that's going tobe a monstrous project If I
(19:29):
changed my number, to which hemight reply but I'm looking for
safety.
You see, if you have a brandnew number and you're not giving
it to anybody else, then Iwon't worry about that guy
trying to call you Now, on theother hand, he might say okay,
that is too difficult.
So here's what's going to happen.
I get to see every phone call,every text, and so what I'm
(19:52):
going to do is, when a phonecall comes in, whoever you talk
to during the day, whatevercalls you make, whatever call
comes back to you, then what'sgoing to happen there is, I'm
going to get to see everythingand therefore, if he does call
you, he tries to contact you.
I'm going to know, because I'mgoing to see it.
Well, but I'll have no privacy.
That's correct.
And we're not going to livelike that the rest of our lives
(20:15):
because you're not a child.
So we can't go two years, threeyears like that, because
neither one of us can stand it,but we can go a year like that,
and if she says well, what aboutnine months?
I think you compromise at somepoint, but you understand you're
making hard.
In fact, you cannot do this andif you do, there is a
consequence.
(20:35):
Now, if you come to ourworkshop, you'll be able to
become membership or havemembership with us and in our
membership I actually have aseries it's video and it's on
PDF that'll tell you how to doall of that stuff, how to put up
the boundaries that need to beput up and how to enforce the
boundaries that need to be putup, and that's all available to
(20:56):
you for free if you become amember with us, and that will
automatically happen.
I think, is that right?
Automatically happen.
If you come to one of ourworkshops, you say but that's
going to be tough, and thenthere might be some other things
like okay, here's another thing, I need to handle all of the
money.
Well, I'm used to taking partof my paycheck and just going
(21:17):
and having fun with it, and youwill again.
But right now I need to handleall the money because I need to
know if you buy a burn phone.
I need to know if you'respending money on liquor.
I need to know if blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah you say
really, and if you're going tobe 10 minutes late, I need you
to call me and tell me where youare and take a picture and show
(21:39):
me that kind of stuff.
Now I'm beginning to make itsound like you're going to set
up like 40 or 50 things here andI'm telling you you can't do
that.
That would absolutely not work.
What I'm saying is it has to besomething where the person
whose trust you're trying toregain can feel safe, but not so
much that this person over heregives up all hope.
(22:00):
So that's where it can't befive years, it can't be the rest
of our life.
It's got to have some kind ofan end period that you work out.
You say well, why would a personagree to this?
They won't, unless they'rewanting to reestablish trust.
So when I cheated on Alice, mywife, way back in 1984, we
(22:25):
remarried in 1987.
I divorced Alice for the otherwoman when we remarried in 1987,
without even realizing what wewere doing, we said those same
things.
Alice handled all the money.
She knew where I was everyminute.
There were certain places thatI would not go.
One agreement I made with herwas, even though I was helping
(22:46):
people, you can never meet withone woman alone, even if she
just wants to have coffee totalk to you.
Never meet with one woman alone.
Okay, that's fine with me.
Well, what if the woman saysI've got to talk to you and talk
to you alone and nobody elsecan hear?
I'll say there are plenty ofpeople out there you can call to
help you, but I don't meet withany woman alone, because that
(23:08):
was a precursor that set up myinfidelity helping a woman and
finally beginning to care toomuch about her, which led to my
infidelity.
So since we knew that, we cutthat out, you say, well, wait a
minute, that was back in the1980s.
Do you still have that To adegree?
To a degree in the sense thatif someone wants to talk to me
(23:30):
alone, I'll ask Alice, is thatcomfortable for you?
And she says, yeah, I do.
If she says I don't feel goodabout one, I say okay, I won't.
It's not a criteria that she'slaid on me.
It's one thing I continue to dobecause I want to convince her.
So I don't live by all thethings we did.
I did those things for about 10months to a year where I was
(23:55):
basically being treated as ifnot being treated.
I willingly did it.
So let me rephrase that I wasnot being treated badly.
I volunteered.
You can check on me like I'm awayward teenager.
You can know everything I do.
You can see my cell phone, youcan see my.
Do we have cell phones back in87?
I can't remember.
But you can do all those kindsof things, but I can't do it all
(24:17):
my life because I would feel Iwas some kind of a slave.
And so I can do it until youregain trust.
And that's what calculativetrust is.
And so it has to give safety,emotional safety, particularly
to the person who has beenviolated, and it has to be
voluntarily agreed to by theperson who caused the pain.
(24:40):
Therefore, each of themtogether have to build a
calculative trust.
Now if you say, what if wecan't agree on how to do that?
Okay, it's not always theeasiest thing in the world to do
.
We have coaches that work withus here at MH International
Marriage Helper, and the coachwill not tell you how to do it,
(25:00):
but the coach can help you thinkthrough how to build that
calculative.
The coach can help you thinkthrough how to build that
calculative trust by askingquestions Okay, is this really
that big a deal?
If it's not, let's just leavethis one aside.
And so sometimes the spouse issaying I have to have this, I
have to have this.
(25:21):
The coach might say to them.
You know, that sounds a littleextreme to me.
I don't know if anybody canlive like that, are you sure?
Is it that important to you todo that?
And so the coaches can help youkeep it there by asking
questions and making comments,but they will not design it for
you.
You have to design it for youindividually.
(25:43):
Can it be done?
Yes, can trust be re-earned,absolutely?
Well then, dr E, how long didit take you to re-earn Alice's
trust?
Probably about a year.
And then she trusted you again,mm-hmm.
Now, occasionally she'd come upwith some questions, because of
(26:04):
the fact that sometimes thingsjust pop up out of nowhere.
But yes, she did, and she'strusted me for all these years,
and that trust has beenvalidated.
And so we look at that and goso you can trust the other
person again, Absolutely.
You can trust them completely,absolutely, absolutely.
You can trust them completely,absolutely.
I even one time, a few years ago, when I was on the road
(26:26):
speaking at an event, I actuallyhad a waitress make a heavy
pass at me.
You know, I know, not now, notthis old fat guy.
This was a few years ago.
I tried to remember every wordshe said.
You said why?
So I could go back and tellAlice, you what.
I went back and I told Alice.
Here's what she did.
Here's what she said Did youhave to do that, mm-mm?
(26:47):
Why did you do it?
Because I knew it would helpher trust me more.
I'm going to tell her anythinglike that so she doesn't have to
worry about what I'm doing outthere.
And so, in that sense, the restof my life I will do things to
increase her trust for me.
But for about a year we didCalculative Trust.
(27:09):
Now, to find out more aboutthat, of course you can talk to
one of our coaches and he or shecan help you.
But we also have this thingcalled a workshop.
It's a three-day intensive forcouples who have trouble, and a
lot of the couples who come arethere because of infidelity Not
all of them by any means, but alot of couples who come because
of infidelity.
(27:30):
Sometimes it's the husband,sometimes it's the wife,
sometimes it's been both.
And in those three days we gothrough a lot of things in our
hurry helping people tounderstand how did that happen,
why did that happen, how to notever do it again how to rebuild
a relationship, how to reconcilewhere it's fair and you can
live with it All passing, how toforgive it so you don't have to
(27:51):
be haunted by it the rest ofyour life.
And how can you trust eachother again.
You say you can teach us allthat in three days.
Yes, and we're going to beperfect after three days.
No, that's why we continue tohave this thing called
membership that we hope you willbe part of and stay with us for
at least another year, whereother members can help you and
(28:14):
our own staff can be in thereand that membership helping you.
And we also have coachingavailable to you, where our
coaches can help guide youeither individually or as a
couple.
In other words, we want to giveyou the full package so we can
help you put all this backtogether trust each other again,
be deeply in love with eachother again.
(28:35):
If you go to marriagehelpercomthat's marriagehelpercom slash
call you can go to there,marriagehelper that's
marriagehelpercom slash call.
And you can schedule half hourvisits with some of our team not
our coaches.
These are not counselors, theseare not therapists.
These are people who will talkto you, listen to you, ask you
(28:58):
questions about your situation.
Understand where you are, whatit is you're looking for, what
you need.
Ask you questions about yoursituation.
Understand where you are, whatit is you're looking for, what
you need, what you want, and ifwe have something we can help
you accomplish that with,they'll tell you about that.
And so, if you decide to cometo our workshop, we'll teach you
all the things I've beentalking about and, because of
(29:18):
the package, you'll be inmembership after that and you'll
have access to our toolkitsafter that and you'll have
coaching available to you afterthat and we can help you save
those marriages.
And now the question is butwill we be in love with each
other again?
See it all the time, but willwe ever really be again?
(29:42):
That's a good question.
Let's talk about that in thenext episode of Relationship
Radio.
Trust me.
How many times have you heardsomebody say that and the first
thing you thought was no way inthe world am I going to trust
you?
It might be because you thinkthey're trying to sell you
something that's way tooexpensive or that's not as good
as it appears to be, or becausesomebody is trying to convince
you to do something that you'revery wary about.
I don't think I should do that.
(00:21):
Or somebody's trying to leadyou to believe something and
you're thinking it's just notright.
I can't buy into this, becauseI'm not sure that this is true.
And yet they say trust me,don't you trust me?
As a matter of fact, sometimes,when they ask that question,
don't you trust me?
It can be one of the mostmanipulative questions that you
(00:44):
can ever hear, and so ifsomebody says that to me, don't
you trust me?
The first thing I'm going to dois back up and say what's
behind that?
What is the motivation behindasking me that question?
Well, let's talk about it.
Hi, I'm Dr Joe Beam.
This is Relationship Radio,welcome.
Let's talk about trust, andparticularly in this particular
(01:05):
episode, we're going to betalking about trust when it
comes to somebody violating themarriage vow, and now you want
to put the marriage backtogether, or at least one of you
wants to put the marriage backtogether, and when you say, oh,
you're talking about adultery,but there are other things that
can violate the vow just as wellGambling haul the money away
(01:27):
and the other person doesn'tknow it.
You've done it secretly.
I remember working with onecouple many years ago.
He had gotten several creditcards she knew nothing about and
he had maxed them all out,gambling at sports bars.
She eventually found out whenthis guy obviously not thinking
very clearly went to apply for amortgage so they could buy a
new house, the creditorsinstantly found out about the
(01:51):
other cards that she knewnothing about.
She found out about it and shewas livid.
You can understand, you canimagine that right.
So it could be something likethat.
It could be something like Ihad some secret from back in my
life and, because we're marriedand I love you and I trust you,
I shared my secret with you,hoping that nobody else ever
(02:11):
hears about it ever, maybe.
It's something I did when I wasfive years old that I'm still
ashamed about.
Or 15 years old I wish I hadn'tdone, or five years old it was
done to me and I don't wantanybody to ever know.
It happened to me, and so it'slike I've trusted you with that
information.
But you violate my trust in thesense that you tell someone
else.
And now it's public knowledgeout there, or at least public
(02:35):
enough that I know that certainpeople know about it.
And now I'm thinking how can Iever trust you again?
I told you my deepest, darkestsecret and, rather than
protecting it and cherishing it,you shared it with somebody
else.
You may have said to thatperson that don't you tell
anybody, which is probably whatthey told the person that they
(02:56):
told it to Don't you tellanybody.
And it went on that way downthe line.
So, yes, it can be adultery, itcan be gambling, it can be
pornography that's hidden, itcan be violating the sanctity of
a secret that you've beenholding that other people really
don't need to know.
It can be any number of things,but what happens is the other
person looks at you and goes Idon't think I'm going to ever
(03:19):
trust you again.
When I'm working with a couplewhere infidelity has occurred,
often the person who has beencheated on will say something
like this you don't know theworst part about this.
Of course I listen because Ineed to hear what they feel, but
most of the time I can predictwhat they're going to say.
Next, the most difficult partof this, the most terrible part
(03:40):
of this, the part of this thathurts more than anything else,
is he lied to me or she lied tome.
I trusted him, I trusted herand they violated that trust.
They took advantage of my trustand when I began to know that
something was happening and itbecame very suspicious because
of circumstances and situationsand I would ask questions, it
(04:01):
would be like well, trust me,don't you trust me?
I would never do that.
And then they found out laterthat they did.
So what is trust anyway?
Trust is a belief system,believe it or not Trust if I
trust you, it means that Ibelieve that the decisions that
you make and the actions thatyou take will be for the benefit
(04:26):
of our relationship and orbenefit me.
I want to say it again If Itrust you, I believe that the
decisions you make and theactions you take will be for the
benefit of our relationship andor me.
If I distrust you, it meansthat I believe that the
(04:47):
decisions that you make and theactions that you take will be
for what you believe is yourbenefit, but will be harmful to
our relationship or harmful tome.
In other words, you may feelit's benefiting you, but you
(05:09):
know, you know that it's harmingour relationship or it's
harming me, and that's whatdistrust says.
I can't distrust what you, Icannot trust what you think, I
cannot trust what you do, Icannot trust what you believe,
because of the fact that I'mconvinced that you think
primarily about you and youdon't really care about the
welfare of a relationship or mywelfare.
So that's the differencebetween trust and distrust.
(05:31):
Now, usually mistrust anddistrust are used
interchangeably.
I prefer to differentiate alittle bit.
Mistrust for me is like I don'tknow whether I can trust you or
not.
So trust, I believe that yourdecisions and actions are a
benefit of our relationship.
Distrust I believe they'regoing to only benefit you and
actually harm our relationship.
(05:52):
Mistrust is I don't really know.
Now again, these are usuallyinterchangeable, but in my way
of thinking, those are twodifferent things.
So we can talk about all ofthese things of thinking.
Those are two different things.
So we can talk about all ofthese things.
But for the sake of time, let'sjust key into infidelity,
because that one kind of talksabout a whole bunch of deep
(06:12):
emotions and involvements and wecan learn from the principles
from that about how to apply toall the other things I just
talked about.
And so if one spouse cheats as amatter of fact, think about
that word.
And so if one spouse cheats asa matter of fact, think about
that word.
We call it cheating because ofthe fact that we see it as being
dishonest, that we see it asbeing only for your benefit and
(06:33):
actually to my detriment.
It's hurting me, it's causingme pain, harm in some kind, and
so that's why we tend to call itcheating I cheated on her, she
cheated on me, or whatever itmight be.
And that that's why we tend tocall it cheating I cheated on
her, she cheated on me, orwhatever it might be.
And that word's prettysignificant.
(06:53):
As a matter of fact, I rememberone guy in one of our workshops
it was one of our in-personworkshops a few years ago that
other people in the workshopwere saying things like and, by
the way, we don't make you tellthis, people sometimes want to
volunteer it and we make it avery safe place if they do, but
nobody's forced to talk aboutwhat they did, and nobody can
talk about what their spouse did.
(07:13):
We don't allow that.
But some people were talkingabout what they had done and
they were using the word affair.
This one guy turned to thegroup and said I'm not going to
refer to mine as an affair, I'mgoing to call it adultery.
He said I'm a religious man.
I follow the Bible as best Ican, or at least I have done so
(07:35):
most of my life, but I have notdone so.
Recently I committed adultery,and so he used the word.
It was pretty powerful, prettystrong when most people use a
softer word and we actually useit in our workshops the softer
word the affair, so as not to beoffensive to people.
Now, in that situation, he wasin our workshop because he was
wanting to put his marriage backtogether.
(07:56):
His wife wasn't sure if that'swhat she wanted to do or not,
but because she believed atheart he was a good man who had
done a bad thing, she wanted toat least explore the possibility
of.
Can we figure out how thishappened?
Was it me, was it him?
Was it life, was itcircumstances?
(08:17):
I want to know what led to this.
And then she also wanted toknow can we get past this?
Can I possibly in any shape,fashion or form be able to
forgive him to the point wherethat it's not going to be eating
at me in my heart and my mindfor the rest of my life?
And so that's why they were atthe workshop.
(08:38):
By the way, quite a few couplescome to our workshop for that
very same reason, whether it wasthe husband who cheated or the
wife who cheated, they come forthat.
Now I hope you heard me say aminute ago we make it very safe.
We don't say, okay, tell usyour wicked, terrible sin that
you committed.
We don't do that.
And if somebody does decide totell us something about what
(09:00):
they've done, we don't attackthem, we don't accuse them.
We try to understand and tohelp them.
Sometimes it makes some peopleupset I want you to chew my
spouse out, beat him up, let himhave it.
Well, no, if you want people todo that, I'm sure there are
people who will.
But we're trying to help yousave your marriage, not just end
it by destroying it.
(09:20):
So, as they're doing that, then, dr Beam, suppose they learn
how they got into this situation, and almost always they do.
Suppose they learn how never toget in that situation again.
And they do, and suppose theylearn a process where they can
actually forgive, to the pointwhere they can get past it,
(09:40):
where it's not going to hauntthem the rest of their lives.
Yeah, they learn how to do thattoo, but how in the world are
they going to trust the otherperson again?
Now, one of the things that kindof sets us apart is the fact
that I continually read researchabout relationships.
That's not the part that setsus apart.
Many people do that.
(10:00):
But I read not just aboutpersonal relationships, like a
husband and wife, a parent and achild, best friend, whatever.
I also read about relationshipsin other situations.
So, for example, I'll readabout relationships in
businesses, about therelationship between this
company and that company and howthey can build it, how they can
(10:21):
maintain it and if it isviolated, then how can they
restore it and be able to trusteach other again.
And so I read about howcorporations and companies do
that.
I read about how nations, ifthey ever do that, can do that.
I read about how even people indifferent political parties can
(10:41):
do that rarely but occasionallysomehow are able to do that.
And so we're not just lookingat husbands and wives, we're
looking at relationships inevery kind of category you can
imagine.
You say why?
Because it's amazing how muchyou can learn when you look at
it from different perspectives,not looking at it the same way
(11:02):
all the time.
Let's look at it from thesepeople's eyes Now.
Let's see it through thesepeople's eyes Now.
One of the things that wedeveloped by reading about
corporate America actually is aprocess called calculative trust
.
You say now, what does thatmean?
It means I don't trust you, Idistrust you, but I'm willing to
(11:24):
try to put the relationshipback together.
But a crucial part of puttingthe relationship back together
is that we have to reestablishtrust, and we can't do that just
by you saying, hey, I'm sorry,I did that, everything's fine,
I'll never do it again, trust me.
I wouldn't buy into that.
Why would you?
(11:45):
And so calculative trustbasically says all right, we're
going to set some parameters,we're going to set some
conditions and criteria and thenwe're going to set some way to
monitor that.
And if you fulfill thesecriteria, if you meet these
conditions, if you do whatyou're supposed to do in a way
(12:07):
where I can know for a fact thatthat is happening, not in just
the things that you do, but inthe things that you must not do,
and I can have some way to knowthat so that I am not just
taking your word, I can monitorit.
Then that's called calculativetrust.
We're going to calculate a wayto build a process where I can
(12:32):
eventually trust you again Nowin a corporation.
It might be something like youmishandled some of the money we
gave you to do this particularproject that we subcontracted
you to do, and so one thing wewill do in our calculative trust
is we can have our auditorscome in every three months and
(12:54):
look at your books to make surethat everything is kosher, the
way it should be.
You say, well, wouldn't that beoffensive to the offending
company, like we don't want youlooking at our books?
Yes, it would be offending tothem if they have something to
hide.
It would not be offensive tothem if they're on the up and up
and saying we made some errorsthere, we made some poor
(13:16):
decisions, but we're going toprove to you that we're going to
do it right this time.
Calculative trust.
So let's put that with a husbandand a wife, and there are two
sides to this.
There's the person who did thecheating and there's the person
who was cheated on.
Now let's say that it was thewife who did the cheating.
She's the one who had theaffair, the infidelity, and she
(13:40):
has come back to her husband andsaid I want to put this back
together.
And he's saying I don't know ifI can ever forgive you for that
.
I've run into that situation somany times.
I don't know if I can everforgive you for that and I don't
know if I could ever trust youagain because of the fact that
you pulled it off so smoothly.
I mean, you were able to dothat and completely blindside me
(14:04):
where I never knew what wasgoing on.
If you can that smoothly dosomething to hurt me, how can I
ever trust you again?
And we'd say well, let's putyou through the workshop so you
can find out how it happened,what happened, why it happened,
how you can repair that anddetermine the emotions between
(14:25):
the two of you, how you canfigure out all the methodology
of reconciliation, the thingsyou need to do.
Her violation of the covenant bycheating, by sleeping with some
(14:51):
other guy, not to absolve thatthere's guilt there.
But how can you put it backtogether without either one of
you feeling that he or she is aslave, that, oh my goodness, the
rest of my life I'm going to betreated badly because of this.
Because I did have one womantell me one time several years
ago the only reason I stayedmarried to him is so I could
remind him every day for therest of his life how evil he is.
(15:12):
We won't help people do thatNow.
As part of this process, thenthey're going to have to build
some kind of a system where eachperson will buy into it
completely, and it's going to bea calculative trust process
that will last for some time.
It might last for six months,it might last for 18 months.
(15:35):
Now, it can't last forever.
Trust me, I'll come back.
Oh, I said, trust me.
I think that's hilarious.
Trust me in the sense that itcan't last forever, and I'm
going to show you why in a fewminutes.
Okay, so what kind ofcalculative trust?
Okay, if she's the one thatcheated and we find out?
Okay, part of that was becauseof the fact that she was hanging
(15:56):
out with these divorced womenand she would go out with them
at least once every other week,if not every week, and they
would go out to a bar togetherand drink, and these women
sometimes would allow themselvesto be picked up by guys.
And while she was the faithfulhousewife, that lifestyle began
to affect her.
And one night some guy who wasparticularly charming,
(16:17):
particularly handsome, whateverit might be, somehow convinced
her to go to a hotel with him.
And she had a night with himI'll be kind with my words here
and she found it titillating,she found it exciting and she
tells herself well, I'm still inlove with my husband, I would
never, ever leave him, I'm goingto stay in this.
But, man, that was exciting.
(16:38):
And so she meets him again, andthen maybe again, and maybe it
finally turns into what we calllimerence, where she finds
herself feeling quote madly inlove with the other guy.
Or maybe it never turns intothat, maybe it's just what we
call a high opportunity, lowinvolvement affair.
In other words, it's reallyeasy to do it and I don't have
to commit myself in any way.
Whatever the reason might beand we help people figure that
(17:00):
out in our workshop which is it?
What is it?
But whichever it might be, shegets caught.
She now wants to try to save themarriage and the husband's
saying how can I trust you again?
You told me all those nightsthat when you came home a little
bit late, it's because one ofthem had a problem and you
stayed to help her out andlisten.
You lied so successfully that Ibelieved everything that you
(17:23):
said and you had me completelyconvinced that I was the bad guy
for suspecting anything.
And now here we are in asituation where you want to come
back and I'm saying how can Itrust you when you can lie so
effectively?
And you did something thatneither of us ever thought you
would do.
All right, now there's a lotmore involved in the
(17:43):
reconciliation process.
I'm just talking about the trustpart here, just the trust.
And you say about the trustpart here, just the trust.
And you say what would you do?
Calculative trust, all right,what must not happen?
You must not hang out withthose women anymore as part of
the calculative trust, becauseit was their influence that led
(18:03):
you to the situation where youdid the thing that you had
promised you would never do.
Therefore, I cannot trust youif you're still doing things
with them and if she were to saywell, what if I spend some time
with them, but at the park, notat the bar.
You know, sometimes we justmeet there and sit and just talk
to each other.
(18:25):
The husband might say I won'taccept that as part of my
calculative trust, you can haveno contact with them whatsoever.
And what I mean is no text, noemails, no meeting in the park,
and if you bump into them in thegrocery store, you say hello
and you keep going, you're onthe next aisle very quickly, and
(18:47):
I need to know that you will dothat because I don't trust them
.
Now, another thing is you canhave no more contact with that
guy.
She said I'm done with him, I'mover with him, wonderful, but
you can have no contact with him, for whatever reason.
And so it might be well, he hasmy cell phone number.
I can't help it.
He calls me.
(19:07):
Okay, one part of the calculatedtrust might be then we need to
change your cell phone number,but that's going to be difficult
because of the fact that I'vegot so many things tied to that
cell phone number businessthings, personal things, apps on
my phone, paying our bills, etcetera, et cetera.
That's going to be a monstrousproduct or project.
I should say that's going to bea monstrous product or project.
I should say, that's going tobe a monstrous project If I
(19:29):
changed my number, to which hemight reply but I'm looking for
safety.
You see, if you have a brandnew number and you're not giving
it to anybody else, then Iwon't worry about that guy
trying to call you Now, on theother hand, he might say okay,
that is too difficult.
So here's what's going to happen.
I get to see every phone call,every text, and so what I'm
(19:52):
going to do is, when a phonecall comes in, whoever you talk
to during the day, whatevercalls you make, whatever call
comes back to you, then what'sgoing to happen there is, I'm
going to get to see everythingand therefore, if he does call
you, he tries to contact you.
I'm going to know, because I'mgoing to see it.
Well, but I'll have no privacy.
That's correct.
And we're not going to livelike that the rest of our lives
(20:15):
because you're not a child.
So we can't go two years, threeyears like that, because
neither one of us can stand it,but we can go a year like that,
and if she says well, what aboutnine months?
I think you compromise at somepoint, but you understand you're
making hard.
In fact, you cannot do this andif you do, there is a
consequence.
(20:35):
Now, if you come to ourworkshop, you'll be able to
become membership or havemembership with us and in our
membership I actually have aseries it's video and it's on
PDF that'll tell you how to doall of that stuff, how to put up
the boundaries that need to beput up and how to enforce the
boundaries that need to be putup, and that's all available to
(20:56):
you for free if you become amember with us, and that will
automatically happen.
I think, is that right?
Automatically happen.
If you come to one of ourworkshops, you say but that's
going to be tough, and thenthere might be some other things
like okay, here's another thing, I need to handle all of the
money.
Well, I'm used to taking partof my paycheck and just going
(21:17):
and having fun with it, and youwill again.
But right now I need to handleall the money because I need to
know if you buy a burn phone.
I need to know if you'respending money on liquor.
I need to know if blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah you say
really, and if you're going tobe 10 minutes late, I need you
to call me and tell me where youare and take a picture and show
(21:39):
me that kind of stuff.
Now I'm beginning to make itsound like you're going to set
up like 40 or 50 things here andI'm telling you you can't do
that.
That would absolutely not work.
What I'm saying is it has to besomething where the person
whose trust you're trying toregain can feel safe, but not so
much that this person over heregives up all hope.
(22:00):
So that's where it can't befive years, it can't be the rest
of our life.
It's got to have some kind ofan end period that you work out.
You say well, why would a personagree to this?
They won't, unless they'rewanting to reestablish trust.
So when I cheated on Alice, mywife, way back in 1984, we
(22:25):
remarried in 1987.
I divorced Alice for the otherwoman when we remarried in 1987,
without even realizing what wewere doing, we said those same
things.
Alice handled all the money.
She knew where I was everyminute.
There were certain places thatI would not go.
One agreement I made with herwas, even though I was helping
(22:46):
people, you can never meet withone woman alone, even if she
just wants to have coffee totalk to you.
Never meet with one woman alone.
Okay, that's fine with me.
Well, what if the woman saysI've got to talk to you and talk
to you alone and nobody elsecan hear?
I'll say there are plenty ofpeople out there you can call to
help you, but I don't meet withany woman alone, because that
(23:08):
was a precursor that set up myinfidelity helping a woman and
finally beginning to care toomuch about her, which led to my
infidelity.
So since we knew that, we cutthat out, you say, well, wait a
minute, that was back in the1980s.
Do you still have that To adegree?
To a degree in the sense thatif someone wants to talk to me
(23:30):
alone, I'll ask Alice, is thatcomfortable for you?
And she says, yeah, I do.
If she says I don't feel goodabout one, I say okay, I won't.
It's not a criteria that she'slaid on me.
It's one thing I continue to dobecause I want to convince her.
So I don't live by all thethings we did.
I did those things for about 10months to a year where I was
(23:55):
basically being treated as ifnot being treated.
I willingly did it.
So let me rephrase that I wasnot being treated badly.
I volunteered.
You can check on me like I'm awayward teenager.
You can know everything I do.
You can see my cell phone, youcan see my.
Do we have cell phones back in87?
I can't remember.
But you can do all those kindsof things, but I can't do it all
(24:17):
my life because I would feel Iwas some kind of a slave.
And so I can do it until youregain trust.
And that's what calculativetrust is.
And so it has to give safety,emotional safety, particularly
to the person who has beenviolated, and it has to be
voluntarily agreed to by theperson who caused the pain.
(24:40):
Therefore, each of themtogether have to build a
calculative trust.
Now if you say, what if wecan't agree on how to do that?
Okay, it's not always theeasiest thing in the world to do
.
We have coaches that work withus here at MH International
Marriage Helper, and the coachwill not tell you how to do it,
(25:00):
but the coach can help you thinkthrough how to build that
calculative.
The coach can help you thinkthrough how to build that
calculative trust by askingquestions Okay, is this really
that big a deal?
If it's not, let's just leavethis one aside.
And so sometimes the spouse issaying I have to have this, I
have to have this.
(25:21):
The coach might say to them.
You know, that sounds a littleextreme to me.
I don't know if anybody canlive like that, are you sure?
Is it that important to you todo that?
And so the coaches can help youkeep it there by asking
questions and making comments,but they will not design it for
you.
You have to design it for youindividually.
(25:43):
Can it be done?
Yes, can trust be re-earned,absolutely?
Well then, dr E, how long didit take you to re-earn Alice's
trust?
Probably about a year.
And then she trusted you again,mm-hmm.
Now, occasionally she'd come upwith some questions, because of
(26:04):
the fact that sometimes thingsjust pop up out of nowhere.
But yes, she did, and she'strusted me for all these years,
and that trust has beenvalidated.
And so we look at that and goso you can trust the other
person again, Absolutely.
You can trust them completely,absolutely, absolutely.
You can trust them completely,absolutely.
I even one time, a few years ago, when I was on the road
(26:26):
speaking at an event, I actuallyhad a waitress make a heavy
pass at me.
You know, I know, not now, notthis old fat guy.
This was a few years ago.
I tried to remember every wordshe said.
You said why?
So I could go back and tellAlice, you what.
I went back and I told Alice.
Here's what she did.
Here's what she said Did youhave to do that, mm-mm?
(26:47):
Why did you do it?
Because I knew it would helpher trust me more.
I'm going to tell her anythinglike that so she doesn't have to
worry about what I'm doing outthere.
And so, in that sense, the restof my life I will do things to
increase her trust for me.
But for about a year we didCalculative Trust.
(27:09):
Now, to find out more aboutthat, of course you can talk to
one of our coaches and he or shecan help you.
But we also have this thingcalled a workshop.
It's a three-day intensive forcouples who have trouble, and a
lot of the couples who come arethere because of infidelity Not
all of them by any means, but alot of couples who come because
of infidelity.
(27:30):
Sometimes it's the husband,sometimes it's the wife,
sometimes it's been both.
And in those three days we gothrough a lot of things in our
hurry helping people tounderstand how did that happen,
why did that happen, how to notever do it again how to rebuild
a relationship, how to reconcilewhere it's fair and you can
live with it All passing, how toforgive it so you don't have to
(27:51):
be haunted by it the rest ofyour life.
And how can you trust eachother again.
You say you can teach us allthat in three days.
Yes, and we're going to beperfect after three days.
No, that's why we continue tohave this thing called
membership that we hope you willbe part of and stay with us for
at least another year, whereother members can help you and
(28:14):
our own staff can be in thereand that membership helping you.
And we also have coachingavailable to you, where our
coaches can help guide youeither individually or as a
couple.
In other words, we want to giveyou the full package so we can
help you put all this backtogether trust each other again,
be deeply in love with eachother again.
(28:35):
If you go to marriagehelpercomthat's marriagehelpercom slash
call you can go to there,marriagehelper that's
marriagehelpercom slash call.
And you can schedule half hourvisits with some of our team not
our coaches.
These are not counselors, theseare not therapists.
These are people who will talkto you, listen to you, ask you
(28:58):
questions about your situation.
Understand where you are, whatit is you're looking for, what
you need.
Ask you questions about yoursituation.
Understand where you are, whatit is you're looking for, what
you need, what you want, and ifwe have something we can help
you accomplish that with,they'll tell you about that.
And so, if you decide to cometo our workshop, we'll teach you
all the things I've beentalking about and, because of
(29:18):
the package, you'll be inmembership after that and you'll
have access to our toolkitsafter that and you'll have
coaching available to you afterthat and we can help you save
those marriages.
And now the question is butwill we be in love with each
other again?
See it all the time, but willwe ever really be again?
(29:42):
That's a good question.
Let's talk about that in thenext episode of Relationship
Radio.
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