June 11, 2025 • 22 mins
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In today’s episode, we tackle one of the most emotionally charged topics in relationships: narcissism. Whether your spouse has called you a narcissist, or you're wondering if they might be one, this conversation cuts through the confusion and cultural noise.
Kimberly Beam Holmes is joined by Meredith Ball, a Marriage Helper certified coach, to unpack the real meaning of narcissism—what it is, what it isn’t, and why it's become the go-to label in so many hurting relationships.
🎯 We cover:
What the term narcissist actually means (and why most people misuse it)
The danger of self-diagnosing or labeling your spouse
How trauma and attachment wounds shape narcissistic behaviors
Why being called a narcissist doesn’t mean you are one
What to do if your spouse weaponizes this label against you
The powerful role of empathy and acceptance in healing
How to grow—even if your spouse doesn’t change
You’ll also hear insights from clinical research, personal coaching experiences, and real-life stories of hope and transformation. If you’re trying to save your marriage, feeling unfairly labeled, or just want to better understand this complicated topic—this episode is for you.
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
📞 BOOK A CALL WITH OUR TEAM: https://marriagehelper.com/call
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So in this episode we're talking about narcissism
what to do if your spouse thinksyou're a narcissist, what you
can do if you think your spouseis a narcissist, and we're going
to have a colorful conversationall in between.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I don't want to overpromise.
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'll overpromise because I'm a narcissist, so
I'll go ahead and make thegrandiose claim You're the D in
the bond here.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
That's right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
This was probably two or three years ago and he was
talking to me about all thesedifferent like how, what
narcissism is, and it's similarto self-esteem too high of
self-esteem not healthy.
To low of self-esteem, also nothealthy.
And the same is true ofnarcissism.
Like.
We all have narcissism in us.
It's just been, over the years,used in a negative like, in a
(01:01):
negative connotation way yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't.
It wasn't like that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And it is a diagnosis in the DSM, and so I think
that's why people maybe havestarted leveling it against each
other is that it can reach aform where it's extreme enough
and persistent enough that aperson could be diagnosed.
Now it's an extremely smallpercentage of the population
that would qualify.
(01:28):
Maybe somewhere around two orthree percent of the population
would qualify for an NPTdiagnosis.
And I'll tell you, if I had topick one thing that I hear the
most in my coaching andcounseling career, every single
week I have somebody who tellsme.
Usually it's either I think myspouse is a narcissist, my
(01:49):
spouse thinks I'm a narcissist,or my mom thinks I'm a
narcissist, or I think my mom isa narcissist.
That's another one I hear.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
My mom thinks I'm a narcissist.
I cannot fathom a mother like Ican't fathom my mother saying
Kimberly, I think you're anarcissist, I don't think your
mom would say that she wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I don't think she thinks that I don't think so.
There's a lot of messed upfamily dynamics out there and
it's an accusation that peopleare leveling against each other.
The number of times I hear thatin my office far exceeds the
two to three percent of thegeneral population that the DSM
says would qualify for thatdiagnosis.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Why is it so popular?
Right now it's like the hottopic.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It is the hot topic.
When our relationship dynamicsare complicated and when we're
hurting.
It seems to be one of thosethings.
Narcissism seems to be one ofthose things that's easy to grab
as an explanation and levelagainst somebody.
(02:53):
Is it really?
It can be an excuse to work ona relationship, which is super
sad to me, like, oh, you're sucha narcissist, you could never
exist well in a relationshipanyway, so I'm checked out.
You could never exist well in arelationship anyway, so I'm
checked out.
(03:36):
This idea of narcissism and thefact that your spouse may be
covertly suffering, or your momor your dad, like oh well, this
was never going to work anywayand become really
over-boundaried and so it's asuper important topic because it
comes up all the time.
In my work here at MarriageHelper and I had earlier this
year I had a string of clients.
I mean I think it was a week inJanuary I had like five or six
clients in a row that all wereat Marriage Helper doing the
(03:59):
solo workshop path, doing allthe things we tell you to do,
showing up for coaching, leaningin, taking all my feedback and
they're like my spouse says, I'ma narcissist.
When they found out I wascoming to marriage helper, they
were like well, that sounds likesomething a narcissist will do,
you know.
So it's like they couldinterpret all of their behaviors
.
Once you put that label onsomebody, it's almost like
(04:21):
anything they do can beinterpreted in the worst
possible light.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But it doesn't sound like something a narcissist
would do to seek individual help.
Oh it's crazy making yeah, itis.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It is crazy making, because once somebody has put
that label on you, then it'slike oh, I can never.
You're trying to manipulate me,you're trying to look good,
you're trying to earn my truston false premises, I can see
right through you.
It's not in every case and Idon't want.
I don't want this to like, Idon't want to universally bind
this, this up on everybody, butin many cases it's an excuse to
(04:56):
give up on a relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Maybe they're the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, interesting that you say that, because my
supervisor in my counseling workI'm working on licensure for my
counseling license and mysupervisor says if you are
married to someone with apersonality disorder which
narcissism, is one of 10, Ibelieve 10 personality disorders
that the DSM identifies Ifyou're married to somebody who
(05:22):
has a personality disorder, itmeans one of two things about
you Either one you also have apersonality disorder, or two
you're codependent.
So if the person truly has apersonality disorder, which
means they don't have theflexibility and the adaptability
that they need to function inthe world when stressful
situations come up, then itmeans you have a bad picker when
(05:46):
it comes to picking a spouse,essentially, or you're
codependent, which means youhave such a fragile sense of
self that you're willing toenable really bad behavior for
the sake of making yourself feelokay.
You don't feel okay unlessthey're okay.
So essentially, maybe youinterpreted some of their
personality traits as a strengthor a strength, but it was
(06:08):
because your own sense of selfand your own sense of worthiness
wasn't there and youessentially kind of got duped,
bought into it.
Either way, point being, ifyou're married to someone with a
personality disorder, it meansyou have some pretty serious
work to do yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I love that as the opening for someone who's like
I'm here because my spouse has apersonality disorder.
It's like okay, great, so let'sgo through your entire workup
and see all of the things thatare wrong with you, because it
just frustrates me so much,because it's so just like the
(06:45):
opposite of growth minded.
What do they?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
call that, yeah, like a very fixed mindset of like
this is the problem.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean, it's just what you've said.
This is my reason to justhonestly do what I want to do
and not do the hard work to fixthe marriage or continue moving
forward.
Okay, so let's start with thefirst one my spouse is a
narcissist.
If someone's here and they'rethinking well, maybe they're
still with us at this point,maybe not because we've just
(07:15):
maybe accused them of somepretty hard things, but if you
think your spouse is anarcissist, why Like?
So define for me as well whatdo people mean when they're
saying narcissist?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, I think it's a really good question to ask.
So if somebody tells me I thinkmy spouse is a narcissist, I do
say tell me what that means toyou.
So and I did.
I had my trusty little DSM herebecause I was actually going to
read a couple of the criteriaGrandiose sense of
self-importance.
Preoccupied with fantasies ofunlimited success, power,
(07:49):
brilliance, beauty or love.
Believes he or she is specialand unique and can only be
understood by other special andunique and high status people.
Requires excessive admiration.
Has a sense of entitlement.
Is interpersonally exploitative.
Lacks empathy, often envious ofothers and believes others are
(08:09):
envious of him or her.
And shows arrogant, haughtybehaviors or attitudes.
So you know, we were kind oflaughing before we started
recording because, if we'rehonest, we can all identify with
that list of criteria, at leastat some points We've all
displayed those kinds ofbehaviors.
So what makes a person eligiblefor an NPD diagnosis would be
(08:35):
they have all of those things.
And excessive and persistent.
It's excessive, extremelyexcessive and persistent, right,
unrecognized, unrepented of.
I've had people before incoaching say I'm afraid I'm a
narcissist.
Do you think when I do this I'mcoming off as a narcissist?
And my answer to that would be.
(08:56):
If you're asking the question,you're not a narcissist because
you care about the way you're,the things you're doing, how
they make other people feel.
That's not a characteristic ofnarcissism.
Now, at times, have you beenreckless or careless and not
thought about the effects thatyour actions were going to have
on other people?
Sure, you have, because you'rea human being.
(09:16):
But it would have to bepersistent, unrecognized, not
trying to make any changes, nottrying to do anything
differently.
That's what would make oneeligible for an NPD diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
So there's a section in the marriage helper workshop
we teach it on Friday afternoonand it's about control.
And I think it is brilliantbecause I think it has a way of
kind of deep pathologizingcontrol and the fact that nearly
all of us have controllingtendencies and the reasons why
(09:50):
people control.
Most of us control out of fear.
And what I love about thatsection of the workshop is it
doesn't.
First of all, it kind ofuniversalizes the fact that we
all have controlling tendenciesand it can be really damaging
inside our relationships and wemay not realize we're doing it
right.
So it puts you in good companythere.
(10:12):
But it also holds open thepossibility that people can
change.
Like if I can start torecognize that.
And it hit me like squarebetween the eyes the first time
I went to the workshop because Iwas like I am very controlling
because I'm trying to protectmyself and my family from all
these threats outside in theworld that I perceive, and so I
(10:33):
end up being very controlling,trying to tell other people what
to do.
Try to tell my husband what todo when he can think for himself
right, he'll ask for my inputif he needs it but for me to
tell him what he needs to do,even if I mean well, and even if
I'm trying to protect him fromsomething that feels like a
looming threat, is verycontrolling.
(10:54):
So I think a lot of times it'sjust how do you think about this
?
What kind of language do youuse?
Are you using pathologizinglanguage or are you actually
trying to understand what'sgoing on and actually kind of
universalizing it,commercializing it?
Because I think that you knowcontrol and not letting you know
, not letting your spouse havetheir own thoughts, feelings and
(11:20):
beliefs, not giving them thebenefit of the doubt, all of the
things that does destroyrelationships, and I think at
the heart of that, that's theheart of where a lot of
relationships get off track, andI think that might be something
that people actually mean whenthey say I think my spouse is a
narcissist, like I think they'recontrolling, yeah, and that
(11:40):
they have been controlling.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I think there's also an aspect of it too, of like
they have a personality verydifferent than mine and it's
hard for me to understand them.
Yeah, absolutely Right, because, whether you felt like we use
disc a lot, a lot of people useEnneagram, but some of these
things not to their fullestextent, like not a 10 out of 10,
but you know, power wantingadmiration, um, not coming
(12:04):
across as very warm and friendlylike that.
If you're thinking Enneagram,that's very much like the eight,
the eight and the three and thethree right on.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
The disc.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's like the D or a DC um or even an eye at some
points, and so, especially likewanting admiration, like eyes
really fear rejection and sojust understanding how people
are wired and if someone's wireddifferently than you, you can
like we have so many ahas in ourworkshop right Of people when
(12:33):
they're like, oh, my spouseisn't crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
They're just.
They actually didn't have illintent.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
There's something about their hard wiring that
inclines them that way, the waythey're motivated the way they
process the world around them,and oh, there's like 25% of the
other people in this workshopwho are just like them, right?
So it kind of also normalizesnormalizes it Absolutely.
So I think it's a combinationof a lot of those things.
The other thing, though, thatwe were talking about was how I
(13:00):
mentioned, narcissism is aself-protective measurement,
like.
That was one of the things thatDr Ziegler Hill said.
He said it's unhealthy forsomeone to not have a high level
of narcissism, because theybecome a doormat and they just
allow people to walk all overthem and they don't stand up for
themselves or fight forthemselves or anything like that
(13:20):
, and that's its own type ofnarcissism that he talked about,
that someone could suffer from,where they're just really
trying to like people please andmake sure that everyone's
always happy and absolutely, andthat's actually a form of like
narcissism.
He doesn't call that.
He's not talking about likepersonality disorders.
He's just saying it's a scale,just like having high
self-esteem and low self-esteemis a scale.
(13:41):
So narcissism is like aself-protective part of us Right
.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And narcissism narcissistic personality
disorder is thought to come fromchildhood attachment wounds,
personality disorders.
And sometimes when people saynarcissism, I think they're kind
of conflating several differentpersonality disorders.
But that is thought to come outof childhood attachment wounds.
And what I love.
I love doing attachment workbecause it asks the question of
(14:13):
what's happened to you.
You know your disc or yourEnneagram gets at your hard
wiring.
That's really important to know.
Attachment is the study of howhas your trauma molded and
adapted you and it's beenreinforced along the way as
you're an adult.
If that's the case and I'minclined not that I'm an expert,
(14:33):
but I'm inclined to believethat that's the case and people
develop personality disordersbecause of childhood attachment
wounds, well that's fullytreatable.
And if a person has developednarcissistic tendencies as a way
to protect themselves from thefact that they felt very
vulnerable and insecure as achild, well there's a lot of
(14:53):
hope and help for that Right.
And it really reframes thepicture to like oh, my spouse
acts like that because they'restill a wounded little boy or a
wounded little girl that didn'tknow how to express
vulnerability and be accepted.
So they swung to the otherextreme and adapted these like
highly protective behaviors.
(15:14):
If that's the case, thenthere's a lot of hope for change
.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
One of my favorite research studies I read about,
like how do you cure narcissism?
That's not how it was worded,but like what are the best
treatment options for narcissism?
And it kind of at the beginningcovered all of the
disheartening like the peoplewho say there is no hope for
change, but then it summarized alot of the positives.
Anyway, the way that it endedwas, um, empathy Like the way
(15:45):
that someone heals or changesfrom being a narcissist is for
someone to deeply empathize withthem and through that is how
they learn to change.
And I was like that's notwhat's happening to for these
people.
People are labeling them asnarcissist and then, you know,
throwing them to the side, which?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Which causes them to dig in their heels on the
self-protective behavior and theaggrandizing behavior, right,
right, like if you're being putin your place for your
vulnerabilities, you don't wantto respond with more
vulnerability, you're going tobow your back, and that I mean.
That reminds me of the marriagehelper principle of acceptance.
It's attraction, thenacceptance.
(16:24):
When I accept myself as I trulyam, then I can change.
When I accept others as theytruly am, then I can change when
I accept others as they trulyare, then they can change.
What if I asked the question ofwhat happened to you instead of
what's wrong with you?
So powerful, that would open upthe door for some really
meaningful work.
Yeah, powerful change.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
What can someone do if they'relistening to this, but their
spouse is the one who thinksthey are a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I don't know that the plan really changes.
It's to focus on the thingsthat you can control Work your
pies it is.
It's it's a difficult positionto be put in and I really
empathize with it because it'sasking like if someone calls you
a narcissist, they'reessentially asking you to defend
yourself against a straw manargument.
(17:16):
It's like prove to me youhaven't been beating your wife.
When you haven't been beatingyour wife, like, how do you
prove that?
So I wouldn't so much getfocused on.
I'm going to prove to them thatI'm not a narcissist I would be
focused on.
I'm going to become thehealthiest version of myself.
I'm going to relate to others.
Well, I've had some people thatI've coached and I think I've
(17:37):
been this person before too.
That was pleasantly surprised,because things were so tense for
a time between me and my spouse.
It really wore on my own senseof self-worth.
When I started doing my ownPies work.
I was pleasantly surprised athow well I could relate to other
people and it was like, oh okay, this might have something to
(17:58):
do more with what's going onwith him and not so much about
there being somethingintrinsically broken with me.
I'm doing the work and I'mreaping the rewards of having
meaningful relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Do you ever have clients who say I've been doing
the work and I'm feeling great,I'm feeling so much better and
such a better headspace.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
But my spouse is so mad at like how I've grown and
they try and yeah, because Ihave had clients tell me that
because the spouse if,especially if they're in a state
of cognitive dissonance orlimerence which limerence is a
kind of cognitive dissonance inmy mind if their spouse is in
(18:39):
that state, they may deeply needthe standing spouse to be
really broken and out of controlto justify the narrative that
they're trying to tellthemselves about why they're
leaving the marriage.
So, yes, that is a reactionthat your spouse can have and it
can be really, reallydisheartening and discouraging
when you're like I'm making allthese changes, thinking it's
(19:01):
going to catch their attentionin a good way, and then it
actually pisses them off Right.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And then they'll say to themselves like, oh, maybe
it's a push and I need to stopworking on myself.
And that's where we have tokeep resetting and say, no, you
are doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Right and your baseline motivation has to be
I'm doing this for myself.
It was always the right thingfor me to be growing and
becoming a better version ofmyself, so I can't.
It's making it too much of anagenda.
If you're like, the end goalhas to be for my spouse to
notice, we hope they do great.
But if they don't, the worstthing that's happened is you're
(19:38):
a really good version ofyourself.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Right.
People see that all the time,our clients for sure, which is
always amazing.
I did.
I've the past couple of weeksI've been doing some focus
groups with some clients andevery one of them said I am a
different and better person nowbecause of the work I did to
work on my pies and to be moreaccepting, like with my kids and
(20:03):
with my spouse and just allthese other horsemen.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
you know all of this kind of stuff Like it's all
applicable and, and you know it,it it takes the cooperation of
two people to ultimately save amarriage and not everybody gets
that luxury.
But um, there there are someguarantees if you put it to work
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
What are the key takeaways youwant people to have from this
episode?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, 100%.
What are the key takeaways youwant people to have from this
episode?
Yeah, I think my takeawayswould be boiling it all down
Don't write your spouse oranyone off as a narcissist until
you can hold your head up highand feel like you've given them
a chance to change.
Acceptance and empathy overtime can make a tremendous
(20:48):
difference for a lot of people.
You know and I don't wantanybody to feel like I'm trying
to minimize their pain there isit may be a small portion of the
population, but there is aportion of the population that
is diagnosable with apersonality disorder and if that
is the case, they may be sorigid that it may be it may be
very hard or even impossible tobe married to them.
So I don't want to just writethat off, but that is the
(21:11):
minority and I would not want toput all of my eggs in that
basket until I've reallyexhausted all of these other
avenues for engaging, leaning in, trying to change the
relationship.
And I would say and I'm sayingthis gently and without shame
but remember, if you truly aremarried to someone who's a
(21:31):
narcissist, it says somethingabout some work that you need to
do as well.
So you know, I think one of thethings that we do really well
around here is giving people asafe place to say I have some
things that I need to own andI'm not going to do it with
shame.
I'm actually going to do itwith a lot of dignity, knowing
that I'm trying to make a betterlife for myself and the people
around me.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
And it's that heart set too, it's.
You know, one of the thingsthat can get me on my soapbox
real quick is the person whocomes in and just blaming left,
right and center, Like they'vedone this, that or the other.
Maybe they have, Probably theyhave.
But also, where's the extremeownership on our own part?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And there are three sides to every story.
There's at least three sides.
There's his side, her side andthe truth, and if there are any
other witnesses, then there's afourth side.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, jesus the truth.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Jesus was there.
He knows, he knows whathappened, that's right.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, well, I love that and overall, I love just
the belief of okay, well, evenif that's true, even if one of
you is a narcissist, hope andchange are still possible.
The marriage can still be saved.
That's right.
Love it.
Thanks for joining me again,meredith.
Thank you for having me.
Until next time, remember thereis always hope.
So in this episode we're talking about narcissism
what to do if your spouse thinksyou're a narcissist, what you
can do if you think your spouseis a narcissist, and we're going
to have a colorful conversationall in between.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I don't want to overpromise.
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'll overpromise because I'm a narcissist, so
I'll go ahead and make thegrandiose claim You're the D in
the bond here.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
That's right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
This was probably two or three years ago and he was
talking to me about all thesedifferent like how, what
narcissism is, and it's similarto self-esteem too high of
self-esteem not healthy.
To low of self-esteem, also nothealthy.
And the same is true ofnarcissism.
Like.
We all have narcissism in us.
It's just been, over the years,used in a negative like, in a
(01:01):
negative connotation way yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't.
It wasn't like that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And it is a diagnosis in the DSM, and so I think
that's why people maybe havestarted leveling it against each
other is that it can reach aform where it's extreme enough
and persistent enough that aperson could be diagnosed.
Now it's an extremely smallpercentage of the population
that would qualify.
(01:28):
Maybe somewhere around two orthree percent of the population
would qualify for an NPTdiagnosis.
And I'll tell you, if I had topick one thing that I hear the
most in my coaching andcounseling career, every single
week I have somebody who tellsme.
Usually it's either I think myspouse is a narcissist, my
(01:49):
spouse thinks I'm a narcissist,or my mom thinks I'm a
narcissist, or I think my mom isa narcissist.
That's another one I hear.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
My mom thinks I'm a narcissist.
I cannot fathom a mother like Ican't fathom my mother saying
Kimberly, I think you're anarcissist, I don't think your
mom would say that she wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I don't think she thinks that I don't think so.
There's a lot of messed upfamily dynamics out there and
it's an accusation that peopleare leveling against each other.
The number of times I hear thatin my office far exceeds the
two to three percent of thegeneral population that the DSM
says would qualify for thatdiagnosis.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Why is it so popular?
Right now it's like the hottopic.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It is the hot topic.
When our relationship dynamicsare complicated and when we're
hurting.
It seems to be one of thosethings.
Narcissism seems to be one ofthose things that's easy to grab
as an explanation and levelagainst somebody.
(02:53):
Is it really?
It can be an excuse to work ona relationship, which is super
sad to me, like, oh, you're sucha narcissist, you could never
exist well in a relationshipanyway, so I'm checked out.
You could never exist well in arelationship anyway, so I'm
checked out.
(03:36):
This idea of narcissism and thefact that your spouse may be
covertly suffering, or your momor your dad, like oh well, this
was never going to work anywayand become really
over-boundaried and so it's asuper important topic because it
comes up all the time.
In my work here at MarriageHelper and I had earlier this
year I had a string of clients.
I mean I think it was a week inJanuary I had like five or six
clients in a row that all wereat Marriage Helper doing the
(03:59):
solo workshop path, doing allthe things we tell you to do,
showing up for coaching, leaningin, taking all my feedback and
they're like my spouse says, I'ma narcissist.
When they found out I wascoming to marriage helper, they
were like well, that sounds likesomething a narcissist will do,
you know.
So it's like they couldinterpret all of their behaviors
.
Once you put that label onsomebody, it's almost like
(04:21):
anything they do can beinterpreted in the worst
possible light.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But it doesn't sound like something a narcissist
would do to seek individual help.
Oh it's crazy making yeah, itis.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It is crazy making, because once somebody has put
that label on you, then it'slike oh, I can never.
You're trying to manipulate me,you're trying to look good,
you're trying to earn my truston false premises, I can see
right through you.
It's not in every case and Idon't want.
I don't want this to like, Idon't want to universally bind
this, this up on everybody, butin many cases it's an excuse to
(04:56):
give up on a relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Maybe they're the narcissist.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, interesting that you say that, because my
supervisor in my counseling workI'm working on licensure for my
counseling license and mysupervisor says if you are
married to someone with apersonality disorder which
narcissism, is one of 10, Ibelieve 10 personality disorders
that the DSM identifies Ifyou're married to somebody who
(05:22):
has a personality disorder, itmeans one of two things about
you Either one you also have apersonality disorder, or two
you're codependent.
So if the person truly has apersonality disorder, which
means they don't have theflexibility and the adaptability
that they need to function inthe world when stressful
situations come up, then itmeans you have a bad picker when
(05:46):
it comes to picking a spouse,essentially, or you're
codependent, which means youhave such a fragile sense of
self that you're willing toenable really bad behavior for
the sake of making yourself feelokay.
You don't feel okay unlessthey're okay.
So essentially, maybe youinterpreted some of their
personality traits as a strengthor a strength, but it was
(06:08):
because your own sense of selfand your own sense of worthiness
wasn't there and youessentially kind of got duped,
bought into it.
Either way, point being, ifyou're married to someone with a
personality disorder, it meansyou have some pretty serious
work to do yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I love that as the opening for someone who's like
I'm here because my spouse has apersonality disorder.
It's like okay, great, so let'sgo through your entire workup
and see all of the things thatare wrong with you, because it
just frustrates me so much,because it's so just like the
(06:45):
opposite of growth minded.
What do they?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
call that, yeah, like a very fixed mindset of like
this is the problem.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I mean, it's just what you've said.
This is my reason to justhonestly do what I want to do
and not do the hard work to fixthe marriage or continue moving
forward.
Okay, so let's start with thefirst one my spouse is a
narcissist.
If someone's here and they'rethinking well, maybe they're
still with us at this point,maybe not because we've just
(07:15):
maybe accused them of somepretty hard things, but if you
think your spouse is anarcissist, why Like?
So define for me as well whatdo people mean when they're
saying narcissist?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, I think it's a really good question to ask.
So if somebody tells me I thinkmy spouse is a narcissist, I do
say tell me what that means toyou.
So and I did.
I had my trusty little DSM herebecause I was actually going to
read a couple of the criteriaGrandiose sense of
self-importance.
Preoccupied with fantasies ofunlimited success, power,
(07:49):
brilliance, beauty or love.
Believes he or she is specialand unique and can only be
understood by other special andunique and high status people.
Requires excessive admiration.
Has a sense of entitlement.
Is interpersonally exploitative.
Lacks empathy, often envious ofothers and believes others are
(08:09):
envious of him or her.
And shows arrogant, haughtybehaviors or attitudes.
So you know, we were kind oflaughing before we started
recording because, if we'rehonest, we can all identify with
that list of criteria, at leastat some points We've all
displayed those kinds ofbehaviors.
So what makes a person eligiblefor an NPD diagnosis would be
(08:35):
they have all of those things.
And excessive and persistent.
It's excessive, extremelyexcessive and persistent, right,
unrecognized, unrepented of.
I've had people before incoaching say I'm afraid I'm a
narcissist.
Do you think when I do this I'mcoming off as a narcissist?
And my answer to that would be.
(08:56):
If you're asking the question,you're not a narcissist because
you care about the way you're,the things you're doing, how
they make other people feel.
That's not a characteristic ofnarcissism.
Now, at times, have you beenreckless or careless and not
thought about the effects thatyour actions were going to have
on other people?
Sure, you have, because you'rea human being.
(09:16):
But it would have to bepersistent, unrecognized, not
trying to make any changes, nottrying to do anything
differently.
That's what would make oneeligible for an NPD diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
So there's a section in the marriage helper workshop
we teach it on Friday afternoonand it's about control.
And I think it is brilliantbecause I think it has a way of
kind of deep pathologizingcontrol and the fact that nearly
all of us have controllingtendencies and the reasons why
(09:50):
people control.
Most of us control out of fear.
And what I love about thatsection of the workshop is it
doesn't.
First of all, it kind ofuniversalizes the fact that we
all have controlling tendenciesand it can be really damaging
inside our relationships and wemay not realize we're doing it
right.
So it puts you in good companythere.
(10:12):
But it also holds open thepossibility that people can
change.
Like if I can start torecognize that.
And it hit me like squarebetween the eyes the first time
I went to the workshop because Iwas like I am very controlling
because I'm trying to protectmyself and my family from all
these threats outside in theworld that I perceive, and so I
(10:33):
end up being very controlling,trying to tell other people what
to do.
Try to tell my husband what todo when he can think for himself
right, he'll ask for my inputif he needs it but for me to
tell him what he needs to do,even if I mean well, and even if
I'm trying to protect him fromsomething that feels like a
looming threat, is verycontrolling.
(10:54):
So I think a lot of times it'sjust how do you think about this
?
What kind of language do youuse?
Are you using pathologizinglanguage or are you actually
trying to understand what'sgoing on and actually kind of
universalizing it,commercializing it?
Because I think that you knowcontrol and not letting you know
, not letting your spouse havetheir own thoughts, feelings and
(11:20):
beliefs, not giving them thebenefit of the doubt, all of the
things that does destroyrelationships, and I think at
the heart of that, that's theheart of where a lot of
relationships get off track, andI think that might be something
that people actually mean whenthey say I think my spouse is a
narcissist, like I think they'recontrolling, yeah, and that
(11:40):
they have been controlling.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I think there's also an aspect of it too, of like
they have a personality verydifferent than mine and it's
hard for me to understand them.
Yeah, absolutely Right, because, whether you felt like we use
disc a lot, a lot of people useEnneagram, but some of these
things not to their fullestextent, like not a 10 out of 10,
but you know, power wantingadmiration, um, not coming
(12:04):
across as very warm and friendlylike that.
If you're thinking Enneagram,that's very much like the eight,
the eight and the three and thethree right on.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
The disc.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's like the D or a DC um or even an eye at some
points, and so, especially likewanting admiration, like eyes
really fear rejection and sojust understanding how people
are wired and if someone's wireddifferently than you, you can
like we have so many ahas in ourworkshop right Of people when
(12:33):
they're like, oh, my spouseisn't crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
They're just.
They actually didn't have illintent.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
There's something about their hard wiring that
inclines them that way, the waythey're motivated the way they
process the world around them,and oh, there's like 25% of the
other people in this workshopwho are just like them, right?
So it kind of also normalizesnormalizes it Absolutely.
So I think it's a combinationof a lot of those things.
The other thing, though, thatwe were talking about was how I
(13:00):
mentioned, narcissism is aself-protective measurement,
like.
That was one of the things thatDr Ziegler Hill said.
He said it's unhealthy forsomeone to not have a high level
of narcissism, because theybecome a doormat and they just
allow people to walk all overthem and they don't stand up for
themselves or fight forthemselves or anything like that
(13:20):
, and that's its own type ofnarcissism that he talked about,
that someone could suffer from,where they're just really
trying to like people please andmake sure that everyone's
always happy and absolutely, andthat's actually a form of like
narcissism.
He doesn't call that.
He's not talking about likepersonality disorders.
He's just saying it's a scale,just like having high
self-esteem and low self-esteemis a scale.
(13:41):
So narcissism is like aself-protective part of us Right
.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And narcissism narcissistic personality
disorder is thought to come fromchildhood attachment wounds,
personality disorders.
And sometimes when people saynarcissism, I think they're kind
of conflating several differentpersonality disorders.
But that is thought to come outof childhood attachment wounds.
And what I love.
I love doing attachment workbecause it asks the question of
(14:13):
what's happened to you.
You know your disc or yourEnneagram gets at your hard
wiring.
That's really important to know.
Attachment is the study of howhas your trauma molded and
adapted you and it's beenreinforced along the way as
you're an adult.
If that's the case and I'minclined not that I'm an expert,
(14:33):
but I'm inclined to believethat that's the case and people
develop personality disordersbecause of childhood attachment
wounds, well that's fullytreatable.
And if a person has developednarcissistic tendencies as a way
to protect themselves from thefact that they felt very
vulnerable and insecure as achild, well there's a lot of
(14:53):
hope and help for that Right.
And it really reframes thepicture to like oh, my spouse
acts like that because they'restill a wounded little boy or a
wounded little girl that didn'tknow how to express
vulnerability and be accepted.
So they swung to the otherextreme and adapted these like
highly protective behaviors.
(15:14):
If that's the case, thenthere's a lot of hope for change
.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
One of my favorite research studies I read about,
like how do you cure narcissism?
That's not how it was worded,but like what are the best
treatment options for narcissism?
And it kind of at the beginningcovered all of the
disheartening like the peoplewho say there is no hope for
change, but then it summarized alot of the positives.
Anyway, the way that it endedwas, um, empathy Like the way
(15:45):
that someone heals or changesfrom being a narcissist is for
someone to deeply empathize withthem and through that is how
they learn to change.
And I was like that's notwhat's happening to for these
people.
People are labeling them asnarcissist and then, you know,
throwing them to the side, which?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Which causes them to dig in their heels on the
self-protective behavior and theaggrandizing behavior, right,
right, like if you're being putin your place for your
vulnerabilities, you don't wantto respond with more
vulnerability, you're going tobow your back, and that I mean.
That reminds me of the marriagehelper principle of acceptance.
It's attraction, thenacceptance.
(16:24):
When I accept myself as I trulyam, then I can change.
When I accept others as theytruly am, then I can change when
I accept others as they trulyare, then they can change.
What if I asked the question ofwhat happened to you instead of
what's wrong with you?
So powerful, that would open upthe door for some really
meaningful work.
Yeah, powerful change.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
What can someone do if they'relistening to this, but their
spouse is the one who thinksthey are a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I don't know that the plan really changes.
It's to focus on the thingsthat you can control Work your
pies it is.
It's it's a difficult positionto be put in and I really
empathize with it because it'sasking like if someone calls you
a narcissist, they'reessentially asking you to defend
yourself against a straw manargument.
(17:16):
It's like prove to me youhaven't been beating your wife.
When you haven't been beatingyour wife, like, how do you
prove that?
So I wouldn't so much getfocused on.
I'm going to prove to them thatI'm not a narcissist I would be
focused on.
I'm going to become thehealthiest version of myself.
I'm going to relate to others.
Well, I've had some people thatI've coached and I think I've
(17:37):
been this person before too.
That was pleasantly surprised,because things were so tense for
a time between me and my spouse.
It really wore on my own senseof self-worth.
When I started doing my ownPies work.
I was pleasantly surprised athow well I could relate to other
people and it was like, oh okay, this might have something to
(17:58):
do more with what's going onwith him and not so much about
there being somethingintrinsically broken with me.
I'm doing the work and I'mreaping the rewards of having
meaningful relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Do you ever have clients who say I've been doing
the work and I'm feeling great,I'm feeling so much better and
such a better headspace.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
But my spouse is so mad at like how I've grown and
they try and yeah, because Ihave had clients tell me that
because the spouse if,especially if they're in a state
of cognitive dissonance orlimerence which limerence is a
kind of cognitive dissonance inmy mind if their spouse is in
(18:39):
that state, they may deeply needthe standing spouse to be
really broken and out of controlto justify the narrative that
they're trying to tellthemselves about why they're
leaving the marriage.
So, yes, that is a reactionthat your spouse can have and it
can be really, reallydisheartening and discouraging
when you're like I'm making allthese changes, thinking it's
(19:01):
going to catch their attentionin a good way, and then it
actually pisses them off Right.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And then they'll say to themselves like, oh, maybe
it's a push and I need to stopworking on myself.
And that's where we have tokeep resetting and say, no, you
are doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Right and your baseline motivation has to be
I'm doing this for myself.
It was always the right thingfor me to be growing and
becoming a better version ofmyself, so I can't.
It's making it too much of anagenda.
If you're like, the end goalhas to be for my spouse to
notice, we hope they do great.
But if they don't, the worstthing that's happened is you're
(19:38):
a really good version ofyourself.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Right.
People see that all the time,our clients for sure, which is
always amazing.
I did.
I've the past couple of weeksI've been doing some focus
groups with some clients andevery one of them said I am a
different and better person nowbecause of the work I did to
work on my pies and to be moreaccepting, like with my kids and
(20:03):
with my spouse and just allthese other horsemen.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
you know all of this kind of stuff Like it's all
applicable and, and you know it,it it takes the cooperation of
two people to ultimately save amarriage and not everybody gets
that luxury.
But um, there there are someguarantees if you put it to work
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
What are the key takeaways youwant people to have from this
episode?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, 100%.
What are the key takeaways youwant people to have from this
episode?
Yeah, I think my takeawayswould be boiling it all down
Don't write your spouse oranyone off as a narcissist until
you can hold your head up highand feel like you've given them
a chance to change.
Acceptance and empathy overtime can make a tremendous
(20:48):
difference for a lot of people.
You know and I don't wantanybody to feel like I'm trying
to minimize their pain there isit may be a small portion of the
population, but there is aportion of the population that
is diagnosable with apersonality disorder and if that
is the case, they may be sorigid that it may be it may be
very hard or even impossible tobe married to them.
So I don't want to just writethat off, but that is the
(21:11):
minority and I would not want toput all of my eggs in that
basket until I've reallyexhausted all of these other
avenues for engaging, leaning in, trying to change the
relationship.
And I would say and I'm sayingthis gently and without shame
but remember, if you truly aremarried to someone who's a
(21:31):
narcissist, it says somethingabout some work that you need to
do as well.
So you know, I think one of thethings that we do really well
around here is giving people asafe place to say I have some
things that I need to own andI'm not going to do it with
shame.
I'm actually going to do itwith a lot of dignity, knowing
that I'm trying to make a betterlife for myself and the people
around me.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
And it's that heart set too, it's.
You know, one of the thingsthat can get me on my soapbox
real quick is the person whocomes in and just blaming left,
right and center, Like they'vedone this, that or the other.
Maybe they have, Probably theyhave.
But also, where's the extremeownership on our own part?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And there are three sides to every story.
There's at least three sides.
There's his side, her side andthe truth, and if there are any
other witnesses, then there's afourth side.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, jesus the truth.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Jesus was there.
He knows, he knows whathappened, that's right.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, well, I love that and overall, I love just
the belief of okay, well, evenif that's true, even if one of
you is a narcissist, hope andchange are still possible.
The marriage can still be saved.
That's right.
Love it.
Thanks for joining me again,meredith.
Thank you for having me.
Until next time, remember thereis always hope.
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