May 28, 2025 • 35 mins
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He did everything “right”—worked hard, stayed loyal, provided for his family.
But when his wife left him for his own brother… he didn’t fight.
He tried to understand. He felt bad for them.
And somehow, he believed that was love.
In this real-life conversation from Marriage Helper, we unpack the painful truth behind passive behavior in marriage—and how it often pushes a spouse away more than anything else.
This isn't just a story of betrayal. It’s a wake-up call for anyone who’s given up their identity in the name of sacrifice… and lost their marriage in the process.
You'll discover:
Why empathy without boundaries can become self-sabotage
How passivity kills attraction
The real difference between panic and passion
And why ownership is the turning point between wishing and winning
Whether you're in a marriage crisis or stuck in survival mode, this episode is your invitation to stop letting life happen to you—and start choosing who you want to become.
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You may wonder sometimes what kind of phone
calls we get for people who callus at Marriage Helper MH
International, to be technicallycorrect, people who are looking
for help of one kind or another, and we have decided to give
you information about a few ofthose calls Now.
We'll be very careful toprotect the identity of the
caller, and the reason thatwe're doing this is because of
(00:22):
the fact that you may recognizeyour own situation in some of
these calls that we deal withand you may get some good ideas
about how to proceed if yoursituation is similar, or good
ideas even if your situation isdissimilar, by listening to what
other people have to say andhow they think.
Now our special guest is NathanMcIntyre.
(00:43):
He works with us at MaryShelper.
Indeed, how long have we workedtogether?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's been a couple of years now, believe it or not.
Sometimes it feels like 20, andsometimes it feels like five
minutes.
It just depends on what's forlunch, I guess.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But we've known each other for a long time About 20
years, about 20 years.
I'm glad you're finally workingwith us Now.
Nathan is one of the folks onour team that will actually deal
with people who call in withtheir situations.
Now, as we've already said,we'll protect identities, which
means that we'll change some ofthe irrelevant facts Right, just
so we can disguise people.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But the main things you'll talk about actually
happen.
This is identities changed toprotect the innocent, but OK.
But the truth, yeah, the truthsare there, are there.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
These are not fictional stories.
I just had an interesting calltoday.
I understand.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, here very recently, not today, but very
recently, yeah, speaking with agentleman who called me very,
very emotional, very distraught.
He had his, his wife haddecided that she'd had enough
and, uh, a couple of weeks prior, she had uh, packed up a bag
and he had left or she had left.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Now, when you say he was emotional, what kind of
emotions were you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
hearing Very, very frantic.
You can pick up on somebody'smental state.
When you've done this as longas I have, you can pick up on
somebody's mental state veryquickly.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Uh, it was like panic yeah you could.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
You are.
That's not what I do.
I'm more of the person at thefront gate making sure that you
go down the right street onceyou're in the door.
And so this person was justfrantic, super, barely even got
to say hello before they just,you know, didn't even take their
shoes off before they made aplate right.
So at the end he starts tellingthe story about how his wife
(02:50):
his wife is gone and she's gotthe kids and she's doing all
this.
And then he had to.
Finally, I had a moment to lethim take a breath and I said hi.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh, so all of that was just as soon as you said.
Hello, yeah.
Oh, yeah, so all of that wasjust as soon as you said hello
yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And he explained to me that his wife had left and
she's having an affair that hehad discovered, like I said,
about two weeks prior.
Now the issue, and before weget to the main issue, he
described his life and I askedhim kind of, tell me the story
of his marriage, the 30,000-footview Nobody knows what a
Reader's Digest view is anymoreof their marriage and he's the
(03:31):
classic story.
He's the steady, works everyday, never gotten in any trouble
, never had a parking ticket.
He just does his duty, he worksand he's a good dad and he does
the parent activities.
And just a super nice guy.
Gave everything to his family,everything to his wife Asked, no
(03:58):
questions made, no waves.
His favorite pudding might aswell be tapioca.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
All right, so this is a guy that you're describing as
bland.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, yeah, and those were his words, not mine.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I'm assuming his wife was not.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, she found somebody who was not bland.
The problem was this not blandperson was his brother.
Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, so the husband's brother.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh, my goodness, yeah , so the husband's brother?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, the husband's brother.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And when she moved out, did she move in with the
brother?
Yeah, she moved in with thebrother and took her kids with
her Mm-hmm.
I assumed then that her brotherwas not married.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
The brother was not married.
He had had his own string ofissues and she, you know, and
truly he had had a rough storyas well.
Now, what's interesting to meis, as we're exploring the story
, the gentleman that I wastalking to did something really
(04:57):
interesting, something I don'texperience very often During the
call.
During the call, he startedtalking to me about his
brother's story.
He started telling me all aboutthe trials that his brother had
seen, how his brother'sbusiness had fallen apart and
how his brother's life had beenso difficult and how his wife
(05:20):
very much wanted to take care ofhis brother.
She just felt like she reallyneeded to reach out to him and
take care of him and I couldfeel empathy.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So he was saying empathy not just toward the
brother but toward his wifewanting to take care of the
brother.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I was feeling a lot of empathy towards his brother,
Okay, A lot of empathy, Almostto the point of where you could
feel like he was forgetting thatthis man was also his wife's
affair partner.
Wow, and I asked him.
I said stop for a moment, youdo realize it, and look anybody
(05:58):
who ever speaks with me.
Also, I'm going to ask forpermission to be straightforward
with you.
I said can I just, can I justlevel with you?
Can we just have like a realtalk?
And he said sure, sure.
I said you're talking about theguy who's sleeping with your
wife, You're not just talkingabout your brother and you feel
bad for him.
He said well, yeah, he's got a,a tough life and he's had his
business fell apart and he's hadall these other things happen.
(06:20):
He went through an entirelitany of basically a country
song, right, and he goes.
And then he said even to thepoint where and I'm just sitting
there flabbergasted listeningto this.
And then he said, and I evenoffered to counsel him with my
wife, I even offered to reachout and let's work together, I
(06:41):
said during the affair.
He said well, that's just adetail, the affair is just a
detail.
The affair is just a detail.
The affair is just a detail.
I said, well, if the affair isjust a detail, then why are we
talking?
And he said, If it doesn'tmatter, I mean, are you, are you
in an open marriage now?
Is that what I'm hearing?
You say he goes.
Oh, no, no, no, I'm heartbrokenover this.
Then why are you just givingall the emotion to your brother?
(07:06):
And he kind of stopped for aminute.
He said well, he is my brother.
He said, yeah, but he'ssleeping with your wife.
You love your brother or yourwife more?
Are you fighting for yourbrother or are you fighting for
your wife?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's an interesting question.
What did he say?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, he thought for a minute he goes well, I've
never really thought about itthat way.
He said, yeah, is it possible?
You've never really thoughtabout fighting for anything?
When is the last time youfought for anything?
That's a good question.
Yeah, and he started thinkingback.
He goes well, I.
And he started stuttering.
(07:47):
I, um, I, uh.
I said because you've you'vealways been a dutiful employee,
you ever just take a day offbecause you just want to go get
on a four-wheeler.
No, no, I've got to be on youever.
You ever just take your kidsout of school for a day and go
to an amusement park or anything.
Just blow it off, have a goodtime one time.
No, no, no.
(08:08):
You and your wife ever take astaycation just because you go
find somewhere fun, go up in achalet and just get away.
You ever do something fun.
No, no, I mean, we've got ourresponsibilities and all that
and your wife is just overloadedwith responsibility taking care
of you because you're spent.
(08:29):
You've given your whole lifeaway.
How did he respond to that?
He stopped for a minute.
You could tell.
You could hear the wheelsturning.
The anxiety turned into thisreally kind of mossy, damp guilt
, and I wasn't trying to makehim feel guilty.
That wasn't my point at all.
What was your point?
My point was I wanted him toask himself why his wife left in
(08:52):
the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, did you also want him to ask himself why he
was being so blasé about it?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, I knew why he was being blasé, because blasé
was what he did.
He was afraid of gettingpassionate about anything.
He had never been passionateabout much, but he did panic, so
he did and could feel emotion.
Yes, oh, he definitely couldfeel emotion, but a lot of the
people that I talk to there's abig difference and maybe, if
(09:20):
you're listening to this, maybeyou know the difference.
Passion and panic are twototally different things.
There's a difference betweenfire and fear when you're
running from something orrunning at something.
That's the difference inpassion and panic.
So panic is running from,passion's running toward.
(09:41):
And I asked him had you everfought for anything, had you
ever been passionate aboutsomething?
Because he described hisbrother's life and this is one
part that I neglected to mentionearlier.
He described his brother earlyon as being a very passionate
outgoing guy who'd had a hardluck.
He had a hard time and thenthat's when his business fell
apart and all that.
And I pictured here is this manwho you know, he's Mr Rogers,
(10:07):
without the following.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And this is the guy who called you the husband.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
The husband is Mr Rogers, but his, his cardigan is
taupe, right, so he's, he'sthere.
And then over on the other sideis his brother.
Looks like the front man fromMetallica, right, he's cool and
he's doing all these things andhe's vibrant, but he's had a bad
stretch of luck Over here.
(10:30):
This guy's never had an opinion.
This guy's never done anythingon his own, never risked
anything, always thought hisduty was to lay down for his
family, and over here was a manwho needed rescuing.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, I'm curious here If she'd basically been
taking care of her husband for Xnumber of years, isn't that the
same emotion being touched ifshe wants to go rescue the
brother, or is it a differentone?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You know, you think about that and I have to ask
myself if there was a potential,if the difference is in
potential.
There was a potential, if thedifference is in potential
because her, the differencebetween her husband, who had
never been wounded or who hadnot, who had never made a
decision, never challengedanything, was that he also
wasn't wounded.
That was his status quo.
Over here, you had somebodywith immense potential, but the
(11:21):
reason he was down was he waswounded.
Over here, His potential is sogreater and she can nurse him
back.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
What I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong is that
you're talking about the factthat brother hit two main things
that are attracted to women.
One is passion, strength.
I'll try this, I'll try thatI'm a person who is alive and
vibrant and vigorous, and etcetera, right.
And then the other thing thattends to draw women is oh, I
need to heal you, I need to helpyou get well.
(11:52):
And while those things maysound contradictory, as you're
showing here, they can indicateat the very same time, because
she felt useful, she felt valued, I'll rescue this guy.
But apparently saw him, brother, as being the kind of person
she wanted to rescue, as opposedto him husband, who was just
(12:16):
blah.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
He's just there and I asked him.
I said he's weeping by thispoint at one point on the phone
and he's weeping saying I justcan't believe that she would do
this to us and I feel horriblefor the man.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I would never exonerate her choice.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, ifwe're coming across like we're
trying to blame the guy, don'tmisunderstand.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
We're going to say something else about it in just
a minute.
That we hope is going to beextremely helpful.
But when we talk about aparticular client, a potential
client, we will get very honest,like where's the flaw, where's
the strength, where's theproblem?
And so don't think we'reactually beating him up.
Our heart is with him, butthere's also something there
(12:55):
that he could have donedifferently and potentially
still could.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, and that's the key, because you have to ask
yourself in any situation likethis.
And I'm asking him what has hedone that got him to this place?
But here's the thing I can'ttell him what it was.
He has to understand it in andof himself.
He has to find it.
Because his wife now is seeingherself as needed by someone
whose potential she sees asupward.
(13:22):
She's buying low.
It's that old buy low, sellhigh thing, right.
So she's wanting to invest low,but she feels important.
And over here, her husband,who's always just seen her as
somebody that he's got a duty to, is no excitement whatsoever.
And I asked him.
I said so who are you tell meabout, who you are?
And he was like well, I startedtalking about his job.
(13:42):
And I'm a dad and I'm a husband, I just can't believe.
And he would keep going.
I can't believe she would dothis.
I can't believe she would dothis.
I said why can't you?
Who are you?
Just can't believe she would dothis.
I'm heartbroken.
I can't believe.
Who are you?
He goes well, I guess I justdon't know.
I said well, why can't youbelieve that she would do this
(14:05):
If you've spent all these yearsasking her to tell you who you
are.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
She eventually got tired of it, and the brother at
least knew who he was, even ifhe was failing and had pain.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Even if he was failing and had pain, the
brother was not asking her todefine him.
Everything the husband had donewas to get.
It was all for somebody outsideof himself to give him value.
He had spent his entire lifesacrificing, giving away his
value.
And the problem is, if youspend your entire life letting
(14:39):
everyone else define your value,you are telling them that you
have none.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
everyone else, to find your value.
You are telling them that youhave none and eventually
Actually demonstrating it thatyou have none.
Now I realize what I'm about tosay in the current environment,
when we're making this video ispolitically incorrect.
But there definitely aredifferences between men and
women, and I'm not talking aboutjust biologically, I'm not
(15:06):
talking about plumbing and hipstructure.
I'm talking about the way theythink, the way they feel, et
cetera.
Now, there are variationswithin men and variations within
women.
So don't think I'm ignoringthat.
But women tend to be drawntoward men they perceive as
strong, even if that strength isnot necessarily stable.
(15:29):
Am I right or wrong about that?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Well, typically speaking, I think I mean let's
put it this way no one isattracted to someone that they
see as weak.
I think that strength isabsolutely an appealing thing
and, depending on a number ofother factors the stability
factor you can either give it ortake it.
Some people's unstable is,another person's exciting and,
(15:57):
trust me, I meet enough of those.
And in this case and in thiscase the wife, I believe while
the brother might have a greatelement of instability, he also
has an element of strengthcoming back.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Because if he had been weak she probably wouldn't
have been attracted to go try toheal him Right.
So she's attracted to hismasculinity and his need for
somebody to take care of him.
And she sees that because manywomen see themselves in a
mothering role.
Or I will take care of you, Iwill nurture you Right.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And the problem is with her husband.
She had truly gone full motherwith him and he had his, his
pattern.
His behaviors had been only togive away that value, that
definition of who he was to her.
And he realized while we weretalking that she had never asked
for the right to define him.
He had willingly given it away.
(16:55):
And not only given it away, buthe was requiring her to define
him to the point where shedidn't want that responsibility
and left.
And what's interesting to me is, as we talked about he's having
all these realizations and itwas getting really deep and you
could tell that a lot of goodwas happening.
I challenged him and we agreedon it and we were talking about
(17:17):
what it would look like tochange.
And then the fear kicked in,because the problem with being a
self-sacrificer is that youalso will always have a cop-out.
What does that mean?
What that means is you don'tever have to take responsibility
(17:39):
for yourself if you always havesomebody else to sacrifice for.
You know, I would take time formyself, but I'm a working dad
and I've got a family, okay, sothe cop-out is avoiding being
manly.
It could be any number ofthings.
I've talked with men and women.
So when I talk to myselfsacrificing women, the moms, you
(18:01):
know I would take this time anddo this for me, but my husband
would never let me.
When, in fact, that may or maynot be true, but the fact is she
gets to blame him and shedoesn't get to challenge herself
.
She gets to stay safe and shegets to be a victim, same with
the man.
It's not a gender thing.
It could be men or women, andwe hear it every day, every
(18:22):
single day, cop-outs, cop-outs.
Not my fault, not my fault, Iwould get the help.
You're right.
We've had a great conversation.
Thank you so much.
I've come to this realizationnow I've decided to do nothing.
That's my realization, and inthis case I spoke with him.
We have the availability, wehave the possibility to be able
(18:43):
to let help start immediately.
You know, that sounds great,and then I heard the exhale.
But I just really need to thinkNow.
The problem is a lot of peoplemistake the fact that when
they're talking to me they don'tthink they've already done
their research.
I tell people hi, I'm researchall the time, but after he's
(19:08):
taken this time and he's feltlike he's done something, then
he needs the safety of actuallynot deciding.
And then a lot of people notjust this husband, but a lot of
people want the safety of nothaving to decide.
And I tell people all the timethat the distance or the spot
between want and achievement isownership.
(19:29):
Explain it may be.
And then the spot where you'veattained it, that's a different
spot on the line.
The place where it begins tobecome yours is what you're
(19:51):
willing to take ownership of.
When you take an actionablechoice, when you actually do
something to take ownership ofyour want, it then becomes your
goal or then becomes yourachievement.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Or something you can achieve.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yes, you're starting on the process.
It's not a guaranteed outcome,but it then becomes possible.
Without ownership, a want isnever possible.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So my wanting I'll take it to a very mundane level
my wanting to lose weight andthen saying the reason I don't
is because my wife is such agreat cook, is a cop-out yes,
when the ownership would be.
I'll never lose weight until Itake actions that will lead to
that.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Even.
Furthermore, the ownershipwould be something.
Now, if any of you knowanything about Alice's banana
bread, this would be agargantuan feat.
The ownership here, in yourcase, would be saying no more
baked goods.
That would be, or extremelylimited under certain
circumstances, because I wouldnever put you into that.
But you get the point, yeah ithas to be practical, all right.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, let's just take this out further, toward where
you've been going In a workshopI did.
It had all men in it.
I asked the men how many of youhave had your wives say to you
be a man?
Nearly every hand went up.
And then I said and how many ofyou?
When you try to be a man?
Your wife said you'recontrolling and dominating.
Nearly every hand went up and Isaid so what I'm hearing and
(21:20):
tell me if I'm wrong or not isthat your wife doesn't see you
as being manly.
And when you do what you think,that means it comes across
badly.
And they said yeah, that'spretty much it Okay.
So in a situation like this,where you want people to take an
ownership, that kind of thing,how can they be manly and I
realize I'm throwing this at youwithout any preparation but how
(21:43):
can they be manly without and Irealize I'm throwing this at
you without any preparation buthow can they be manly without
being dictatorial?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, the first thing in this case is you have to ask
yourself or at least if I werehim okay, I'm thinking outside
myself here, but in hissituation you have to ask
yourself what attracted her tothe other man, what attracted
her to his brother, what is thearchetype that she's going to?
She's looking at someone whowas a go-getter.
You know, quote unquote ago-getter, somebody that made
(22:08):
decisions, somebody that owned abusiness, somebody that did all
of these things.
And then you have to ask ifyou're him, you say, well, what
does that person do?
Now, you don't impersonatesomebody that you're not, but if
that person is somebody thatmakes decisions, then you have
to be willing to make decisions.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Okay, no, I get it Like okay, what is she being
drawn to?
But at the same time, it's gotwhat is she leaving?
What is it that she doesn'twant to be part of?
And what I've heard you saythroughout this interview is his
being lackadaisical in thesense of life.
He's a very responsible man,does his job and people would
look at him as an ideal person.
(22:44):
Look at this guy.
If he says he'll do it, bygolly he's going to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He's our company man, because he's there and he'll
obey and et cetera.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But if we're looking for somebody to take on a new
project and be a passionateleader, he ain't the guy.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
He's not the guy, no-transcript.
He needs to make a decision.
(23:21):
He has been so used to handinghis decision-making off to
everyone else, including hiswife.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
But hasn't he, by default, made a decision by
giving empathy to his brotherand his wife and apparently not
being upset that his brother issleeping with his wife?
Isn't that a decision in and ofitself?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's an allowance because he gets to be a victim
there too.
You see, what happens is, ifyou allow these things to happen
, you still get to be poor,pitiful me, you still get to
hang yourself on your own littlecross and say I cared for the
(23:59):
person that offended me.
I cared for the person thatoffended me.
Yet the subtitle, the tinylittle part, the little block
underneath the movie title thatnobody ever reads, said and I
caused all of it myself.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
All right.
So if he comes to one of ourworkshops, what part of our
workshop, what part of what weteach, what part of what we do,
would be something that'sessential for this guy.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Pushes and pulls are a huge part, because you know,
and and and I want to, by theway, I want to say, when I say
sarcastically, I caused all ofit myself.
To reiterate, I'm not blaminghim for every single thing.
He didn't know where it wasleading Right and her actions
are her actions.
She chose to do what she choseto do Exactly.
But I believe that, first ofall, pushes and pulls, I believe
(24:47):
, are a huge part of this.
Learning about the behaviorsthat caused her to be in the
mindset that made her want toleave, that's huge.
Being able to learn the valuein making a decision on your own
and how that turns you into anattractive person.
Being able to say you know what, if something doesn't make
sense, then dang it, I'm notgoing to do it.
I'm going to stand up formyself.
(25:09):
The idea of being a man is nottoxic, it's not brutish, it's
just an idea.
It's just an idea where I'mgoing to see a value in what I
want and I'm going to claim thatand I'm going to stand by that.
And if you have to give reasonswhy, here the reasons why and
do that and guess what, that'sattractive.
Just like no man wants a womanthat just says whatever you say
(25:35):
dear all the time.
And the opposite is just astrue, right, exactly, at the end
of the day, that's part ofpushes and pulls at how it ties
into the pies what we teachabout attraction learning how to
state your own value, not justwith words but with actions,
with how you communicateyourself, how that then, when
(25:56):
you start acting a certain way,it clears your mind so that you
believe.
When you begin to believe youare something and you act that
way, you become that thing.
And when you become that thing,even if it's not radically
different but just substantivelydifferent from who you were
before, then the spouse thatleft realizes that that was
(26:17):
their mistake and they can comeback.
And it also, by the way,byproduct puts you in a place
where you don't receive themwith resentment and retribution,
but with maturity and withgrace, because there was a
resentment that he already hadtowards her, because it's
amazing how many people hand offtheir identity and have all
(26:39):
this duty towards everyone elseand they just, very quietly, are
just desperate.
It's the old Pink Floyd line,you know, hanging on in quiet
desperation is the English way.
It's just, he hated his lifethe whole time.
So if you hate your life thewhole time, get rid of it, do
different things, and then whenshe realizes because look,
limerence always ends.
(27:00):
So when that changes and shecomes back, you're not receiving
her with Freddy Krueger gloves,you're receiving her with
warmth and with grace and withlove and in a real masculine way
.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
What you're saying and what we definitely believe
in marriage helper, is this it'snot about one person dominating
the other, no matter whichgender he or she is, but but
when you come across to yourspouse and I'm talking
particularly to men now when youcome across as Casper Milk
Toast, you're just laid back,easygoing, to the point.
You see, I can't tell you howmany women have said this to me.
(27:39):
If I even say, let's go tolunch, where would you like to
go, my husband will always saywherever you wish, and you think
, well, he's just being polite.
But that pattern I've heardthis from many women over the
last year that pattern is I needyou to make some kind of
decision in life, even that.
And if she says I don't want togo there, let's go here.
(27:59):
At least you're still operatingas two individuals in equality.
It's not one bashing the othercontrolling individuals in
equality.
It's not one bashing, the othercontrolling.
But if you're always abdicating, I'm just going to do what I'm
supposed to do.
That said, you make thedecisions.
Woman after woman after woman inthe last year has told me I
can't stand that I lose respectfor me and, as you've been
(28:22):
describing in this situationmany, many times I have then
seen this woman fall for a guywho was strong.
I even asked one of them.
I said is it because of thefact that this guy is going to
be your leader and is going tomake all the decisions?
She said no, no, no, no, no.
It's because I want somebodywho treats me as an equal, and
you can't treat me as an equalwhen you're subservient to me.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
And what's interesting is that so many of
those people that don't and itoccurred to me now so many of
those people that don't makethose decisions that are always
like whatever you think,whatever you think, they don't
do it out of respect, they do itbecause they're afraid Possible
, they do it because they'reafraid of offense, or do it
because they're afraid of makinga mistake.
And if you are that person,then you are already putting
(29:06):
yourself in an unequal position.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Could it not also be people who really aren't
involved?
Could be Like that's a signthat I'm really detached from
you.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah.
Then here comes thedismissiveness and all of the
avoidance and all of that it's along conversation is this
gentleman, the husband?
His fear won and we talked andI gave him some space, because
(29:38):
some people look, you know, I'mnot here to force anybody to do
anything.
Why teach them on how to pullif you have to push right?
So gave him some space and, um,interestingly enough, uh, he
went on a retreat that weekendand said he had come back after
clearing his head and decided toget started.
And he came back and said that,um, he was just going to keep
(30:01):
doing what he was doing and hopewas going to be his strategy,
and that he just needs to makesure to not rock any bones and
that sometime, you know, somehow, this time doing the exact same
thing, we're going to betotally different.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That to me sounds like when I was diagnosed with
the prostate cancer and theysaid it's an aggressive kind, we
can't just watch it, we have totreat it.
If I said, no hope, I'm justgoing to hang on to hope.
But we have this protonradiation therapy, we have these
pills you need to take.
No, I'm just going to exist onhope.
(30:37):
And then if the stuff killed me, I would have said well, at
least I hoped.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, it's interesting to me.
I talk with so many people andlet's use your cancer as a case
for this I speak with so manypeople that would say you know
what?
I'm just going to wait on theLord.
Well, maybe God gave you theproton therapy Exactly.
Have you ever considered that?
That's how I think.
Yeah, and I had a lady on thephone one time.
(31:04):
She said I just really need topray about this, I really need
to think about it.
And look, I'm not making lightof your prayer life at all.
I say the same prayer everymorning when I come in here.
But I asked her.
I said what are you going topray for?
You could tell she was veryavoidant too.
She was very fearful.
She had had an interestingstory.
I said what are you going topray for?
(31:25):
She said I just need to knowwhat God wants me to do.
I said okay, can I ask you somequestions on that?
She said yeah, yeah, yeah.
How do you know when God tellsyou she goes?
(31:46):
Well, it's just, you just know,and it's a good feeling, and
it's Do you think God wants youto save your marriage?
She said well, that's what hesays.
Yeah, have you already beenpraying about it, or did it just
occur to you to pray?
No, I've been praying, for inher case it was six months.
We're trying to help save yourmarriage.
Has it ever occurred to youthat this might be the answer
(32:11):
you've been praying for?
It's the old adage of you'resitting on the top of the house
with the waters coming up andyou pray for God to save you
from the flood, and he's alreadysent you a boat and a kayak.
Here comes the helicopter.
It's time to get on board.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And I absolutely am convinced that you don't always
have a good feeling to do whatGod wants you to do.
I mean, Jesus would say whenyou go out this is Matthew,
chapter 9 and 10, when you goout and start preaching this
good news, they're going to hateyou, they're going to kill you.
I don't think they went.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yay, Didn't he say a crooked and perverse generation
is looking for a sign, right.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Anyway, we could go on forever about all that, but
sometimes it's courage that ittakes, All right.
So let's wrap this up.
We're talking particularly tomen in this particular session,
although it's very applicable towomen.
What we're looking for in arelationship is equality, not
dominance.
But it's not equality when theother person sees you as being
totally docile, that you're justkind of there and you're not
(33:09):
really contributing.
You might be bringing the moneyhome, you might be providing a
good shelter, but when it comesto life, you're avoidant of
making decisions, of doingthings.
So it's not domination, it'snot dictatorship, it's actually
inequality.
Now, our primary product thatwe in service that we have that
does the most good is ourcouples workshop, where you and
(33:30):
your spouse come together, butoccasionally about once a
quarter, I think I do a workshopjust for husbands and we'll be
doing one of those, jason, is itin the month of June?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I'll be doing one of those June 13th June 13th,
nathan knows I should have known.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You would know, june 13th, and while the couples
workshop is far superior, that'swhat we want people to come to.
If you're a guy and you'rethinking I need to understand
more about this, god willing,unless something bad happens,
I'm going to be leading thatworkshop, and so how do they get
in contact with us?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Okay, slash call and you can get to the right person.
It might be Nathan, it may beone of the folks that work with
Nathan, and we'd love to inviteyou to the couples workshop so
you can learn how to do thisquality and neither one of you
is dominant, that you're bothequal but equally strong,
although you'll also be equallyweak, because nobody's perfect.
(34:25):
Or, if you guys are saying no,I think I want to come to that
men's one, then it's June 13th.
June 13th weekend, fridaythrough Sunday.
Okay, so tell again how theycan get in touch with us.
Marriagehelpercom.
Slash call.
That's simple enough.
Thank you very much, nathan.
Yeah, thanks, john.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
Likewise, you make me think ofthings, things I like, that I
(34:50):
like.
That Beats the alternative.
No, at my age, sometimes I canjust sit.
Okay.
Thank you very much for beingwith us.
We want to help where wepossibly can.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Please contact us.
You may wonder sometimes what kind of phone
calls we get for people who callus at Marriage Helper MH
International, to be technicallycorrect, people who are looking
for help of one kind or another, and we have decided to give
you information about a few ofthose calls Now.
We'll be very careful toprotect the identity of the
caller, and the reason thatwe're doing this is because of
(00:22):
the fact that you may recognizeyour own situation in some of
these calls that we deal withand you may get some good ideas
about how to proceed if yoursituation is similar, or good
ideas even if your situation isdissimilar, by listening to what
other people have to say andhow they think.
Now our special guest is NathanMcIntyre.
(00:43):
He works with us at MaryShelper.
Indeed, how long have we workedtogether?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's been a couple of years now, believe it or not.
Sometimes it feels like 20, andsometimes it feels like five
minutes.
It just depends on what's forlunch, I guess.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But we've known each other for a long time About 20
years, about 20 years.
I'm glad you're finally workingwith us Now.
Nathan is one of the folks onour team that will actually deal
with people who call in withtheir situations.
Now, as we've already said,we'll protect identities, which
means that we'll change some ofthe irrelevant facts Right, just
so we can disguise people.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But the main things you'll talk about actually
happen.
This is identities changed toprotect the innocent, but OK.
But the truth, yeah, the truthsare there, are there.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
These are not fictional stories.
I just had an interesting calltoday.
I understand.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, here very recently, not today, but very
recently, yeah, speaking with agentleman who called me very,
very emotional, very distraught.
He had his, his wife haddecided that she'd had enough
and, uh, a couple of weeks prior, she had uh, packed up a bag
and he had left or she had left.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Now, when you say he was emotional, what kind of
emotions were you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
hearing Very, very frantic.
You can pick up on somebody'smental state.
When you've done this as longas I have, you can pick up on
somebody's mental state veryquickly.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Uh, it was like panic yeah you could.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It was da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
You are.
That's not what I do.
I'm more of the person at thefront gate making sure that you
go down the right street onceyou're in the door.
And so this person was justfrantic, super, barely even got
to say hello before they just,you know, didn't even take their
shoes off before they made aplate right.
So at the end he starts tellingthe story about how his wife
(02:50):
his wife is gone and she's gotthe kids and she's doing all
this.
And then he had to.
Finally, I had a moment to lethim take a breath and I said hi.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh, so all of that was just as soon as you said.
Hello, yeah.
Oh, yeah, so all of that wasjust as soon as you said hello
yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And he explained to me that his wife had left and
she's having an affair that hehad discovered, like I said,
about two weeks prior.
Now the issue, and before weget to the main issue, he
described his life and I askedhim kind of, tell me the story
of his marriage, the 30,000-footview Nobody knows what a
Reader's Digest view is anymoreof their marriage and he's the
(03:31):
classic story.
He's the steady, works everyday, never gotten in any trouble
, never had a parking ticket.
He just does his duty, he worksand he's a good dad and he does
the parent activities.
And just a super nice guy.
Gave everything to his family,everything to his wife Asked, no
(03:58):
questions made, no waves.
His favorite pudding might aswell be tapioca.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
All right, so this is a guy that you're describing as
bland.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, yeah, and those were his words, not mine.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I'm assuming his wife was not.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, she found somebody who was not bland.
The problem was this not blandperson was his brother.
Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, so the husband's brother.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh, my goodness, yeah , so the husband's brother?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, the husband's brother.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And when she moved out, did she move in with the
brother?
Yeah, she moved in with thebrother and took her kids with
her Mm-hmm.
I assumed then that her brotherwas not married.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
The brother was not married.
He had had his own string ofissues and she, you know, and
truly he had had a rough storyas well.
Now, what's interesting to meis, as we're exploring the story
, the gentleman that I wastalking to did something really
(04:57):
interesting, something I don'texperience very often During the
call.
During the call, he startedtalking to me about his
brother's story.
He started telling me all aboutthe trials that his brother had
seen, how his brother'sbusiness had fallen apart and
how his brother's life had beenso difficult and how his wife
(05:20):
very much wanted to take care ofhis brother.
She just felt like she reallyneeded to reach out to him and
take care of him and I couldfeel empathy.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So he was saying empathy not just toward the
brother but toward his wifewanting to take care of the
brother.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I was feeling a lot of empathy towards his brother,
Okay, A lot of empathy, Almostto the point of where you could
feel like he was forgetting thatthis man was also his wife's
affair partner.
Wow, and I asked him.
I said stop for a moment, youdo realize it, and look anybody
(05:58):
who ever speaks with me.
Also, I'm going to ask forpermission to be straightforward
with you.
I said can I just, can I justlevel with you?
Can we just have like a realtalk?
And he said sure, sure.
I said you're talking about theguy who's sleeping with your
wife, You're not just talkingabout your brother and you feel
bad for him.
He said well, yeah, he's got a,a tough life and he's had his
business fell apart and he's hadall these other things happen.
(06:20):
He went through an entirelitany of basically a country
song, right, and he goes.
And then he said even to thepoint where and I'm just sitting
there flabbergasted listeningto this.
And then he said, and I evenoffered to counsel him with my
wife, I even offered to reachout and let's work together, I
(06:41):
said during the affair.
He said well, that's just adetail, the affair is just a
detail.
The affair is just a detail.
The affair is just a detail.
I said, well, if the affair isjust a detail, then why are we
talking?
And he said, If it doesn'tmatter, I mean, are you, are you
in an open marriage now?
Is that what I'm hearing?
You say he goes.
Oh, no, no, no, I'm heartbrokenover this.
Then why are you just givingall the emotion to your brother?
(07:06):
And he kind of stopped for aminute.
He said well, he is my brother.
He said, yeah, but he'ssleeping with your wife.
You love your brother or yourwife more?
Are you fighting for yourbrother or are you fighting for
your wife?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's an interesting question.
What did he say?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, he thought for a minute he goes well, I've
never really thought about itthat way.
He said, yeah, is it possible?
You've never really thoughtabout fighting for anything?
When is the last time youfought for anything?
That's a good question.
Yeah, and he started thinkingback.
He goes well, I.
And he started stuttering.
(07:47):
I, um, I, uh.
I said because you've you'vealways been a dutiful employee,
you ever just take a day offbecause you just want to go get
on a four-wheeler.
No, no, I've got to be on youever.
You ever just take your kidsout of school for a day and go
to an amusement park or anything.
Just blow it off, have a goodtime one time.
No, no, no.
(08:08):
You and your wife ever take astaycation just because you go
find somewhere fun, go up in achalet and just get away.
You ever do something fun.
No, no, I mean, we've got ourresponsibilities and all that
and your wife is just overloadedwith responsibility taking care
of you because you're spent.
(08:29):
You've given your whole lifeaway.
How did he respond to that?
He stopped for a minute.
You could tell.
You could hear the wheelsturning.
The anxiety turned into thisreally kind of mossy, damp guilt
, and I wasn't trying to makehim feel guilty.
That wasn't my point at all.
What was your point?
My point was I wanted him toask himself why his wife left in
(08:52):
the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, did you also want him to ask himself why he
was being so blasé about it?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well, I knew why he was being blasé, because blasé
was what he did.
He was afraid of gettingpassionate about anything.
He had never been passionateabout much, but he did panic, so
he did and could feel emotion.
Yes, oh, he definitely couldfeel emotion, but a lot of the
people that I talk to there's abig difference and maybe, if
(09:20):
you're listening to this, maybeyou know the difference.
Passion and panic are twototally different things.
There's a difference betweenfire and fear when you're
running from something orrunning at something.
That's the difference inpassion and panic.
So panic is running from,passion's running toward.
(09:41):
And I asked him had you everfought for anything, had you
ever been passionate aboutsomething?
Because he described hisbrother's life and this is one
part that I neglected to mentionearlier.
He described his brother earlyon as being a very passionate
outgoing guy who'd had a hardluck.
He had a hard time and thenthat's when his business fell
apart and all that.
And I pictured here is this manwho you know, he's Mr Rogers,
(10:07):
without the following.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And this is the guy who called you the husband.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
The husband is Mr Rogers, but his, his cardigan is
taupe, right, so he's, he'sthere.
And then over on the other sideis his brother.
Looks like the front man fromMetallica, right, he's cool and
he's doing all these things andhe's vibrant, but he's had a bad
stretch of luck Over here.
(10:30):
This guy's never had an opinion.
This guy's never done anythingon his own, never risked
anything, always thought hisduty was to lay down for his
family, and over here was a manwho needed rescuing.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, I'm curious here If she'd basically been
taking care of her husband for Xnumber of years, isn't that the
same emotion being touched ifshe wants to go rescue the
brother, or is it a differentone?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
You know, you think about that and I have to ask
myself if there was a potential,if the difference is in
potential.
There was a potential, if thedifference is in potential
because her, the differencebetween her husband, who had
never been wounded or who hadnot, who had never made a
decision, never challengedanything, was that he also
wasn't wounded.
That was his status quo.
Over here, you had somebodywith immense potential, but the
(11:21):
reason he was down was he waswounded.
Over here, His potential is sogreater and she can nurse him
back.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
What I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong is that
you're talking about the factthat brother hit two main things
that are attracted to women.
One is passion, strength.
I'll try this, I'll try thatI'm a person who is alive and
vibrant and vigorous, and etcetera, right.
And then the other thing thattends to draw women is oh, I
need to heal you, I need to helpyou get well.
(11:52):
And while those things maysound contradictory, as you're
showing here, they can indicateat the very same time, because
she felt useful, she felt valued, I'll rescue this guy.
But apparently saw him, brother, as being the kind of person
she wanted to rescue, as opposedto him husband, who was just
(12:16):
blah.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
He's just there and I asked him.
I said he's weeping by thispoint at one point on the phone
and he's weeping saying I justcan't believe that she would do
this to us and I feel horriblefor the man.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I would never exonerate her choice.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, ifwe're coming across like we're
trying to blame the guy, don'tmisunderstand.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
We're going to say something else about it in just
a minute.
That we hope is going to beextremely helpful.
But when we talk about aparticular client, a potential
client, we will get very honest,like where's the flaw, where's
the strength, where's theproblem?
And so don't think we'reactually beating him up.
Our heart is with him, butthere's also something there
(12:55):
that he could have donedifferently and potentially
still could.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, and that's the key, because you have to ask
yourself in any situation likethis.
And I'm asking him what has hedone that got him to this place?
But here's the thing I can'ttell him what it was.
He has to understand it in andof himself.
He has to find it.
Because his wife now is seeingherself as needed by someone
whose potential she sees asupward.
(13:22):
She's buying low.
It's that old buy low, sellhigh thing, right.
So she's wanting to invest low,but she feels important.
And over here, her husband,who's always just seen her as
somebody that he's got a duty to, is no excitement whatsoever.
And I asked him.
I said so who are you tell meabout, who you are?
And he was like well, I startedtalking about his job.
(13:42):
And I'm a dad and I'm a husband, I just can't believe.
And he would keep going.
I can't believe she would dothis.
I can't believe she would dothis.
I said why can't you?
Who are you?
Just can't believe she would dothis.
I'm heartbroken.
I can't believe.
Who are you?
He goes well, I guess I justdon't know.
I said well, why can't youbelieve that she would do this
(14:05):
If you've spent all these yearsasking her to tell you who you
are.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
She eventually got tired of it, and the brother at
least knew who he was, even ifhe was failing and had pain.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Even if he was failing and had pain, the
brother was not asking her todefine him.
Everything the husband had donewas to get.
It was all for somebody outsideof himself to give him value.
He had spent his entire lifesacrificing, giving away his
value.
And the problem is, if youspend your entire life letting
(14:39):
everyone else define your value,you are telling them that you
have none.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
everyone else, to find your value.
You are telling them that youhave none and eventually
Actually demonstrating it thatyou have none.
Now I realize what I'm about tosay in the current environment,
when we're making this video ispolitically incorrect.
But there definitely aredifferences between men and
women, and I'm not talking aboutjust biologically, I'm not
(15:06):
talking about plumbing and hipstructure.
I'm talking about the way theythink, the way they feel, et
cetera.
Now, there are variationswithin men and variations within
women.
So don't think I'm ignoringthat.
But women tend to be drawntoward men they perceive as
strong, even if that strength isnot necessarily stable.
(15:29):
Am I right or wrong about that?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Well, typically speaking, I think I mean let's
put it this way no one isattracted to someone that they
see as weak.
I think that strength isabsolutely an appealing thing
and, depending on a number ofother factors the stability
factor you can either give it ortake it.
Some people's unstable is,another person's exciting and,
(15:57):
trust me, I meet enough of those.
And in this case and in thiscase the wife, I believe while
the brother might have a greatelement of instability, he also
has an element of strengthcoming back.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Because if he had been weak she probably wouldn't
have been attracted to go try toheal him Right.
So she's attracted to hismasculinity and his need for
somebody to take care of him.
And she sees that because manywomen see themselves in a
mothering role.
Or I will take care of you, Iwill nurture you Right.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And the problem is with her husband.
She had truly gone full motherwith him and he had his, his
pattern.
His behaviors had been only togive away that value, that
definition of who he was to her.
And he realized while we weretalking that she had never asked
for the right to define him.
He had willingly given it away.
(16:55):
And not only given it away, buthe was requiring her to define
him to the point where shedidn't want that responsibility
and left.
And what's interesting to me is, as we talked about he's having
all these realizations and itwas getting really deep and you
could tell that a lot of goodwas happening.
I challenged him and we agreedon it and we were talking about
(17:17):
what it would look like tochange.
And then the fear kicked in,because the problem with being a
self-sacrificer is that youalso will always have a cop-out.
What does that mean?
What that means is you don'tever have to take responsibility
(17:39):
for yourself if you always havesomebody else to sacrifice for.
You know, I would take time formyself, but I'm a working dad
and I've got a family, okay, sothe cop-out is avoiding being
manly.
It could be any number ofthings.
I've talked with men and women.
So when I talk to myselfsacrificing women, the moms, you
(18:01):
know I would take this time anddo this for me, but my husband
would never let me.
When, in fact, that may or maynot be true, but the fact is she
gets to blame him and shedoesn't get to challenge herself
.
She gets to stay safe and shegets to be a victim, same with
the man.
It's not a gender thing.
It could be men or women, andwe hear it every day, every
(18:22):
single day, cop-outs, cop-outs.
Not my fault, not my fault, Iwould get the help.
You're right.
We've had a great conversation.
Thank you so much.
I've come to this realizationnow I've decided to do nothing.
That's my realization, and inthis case I spoke with him.
We have the availability, wehave the possibility to be able
(18:43):
to let help start immediately.
You know, that sounds great,and then I heard the exhale.
But I just really need to thinkNow.
The problem is a lot of peoplemistake the fact that when
they're talking to me they don'tthink they've already done
their research.
I tell people hi, I'm researchall the time, but after he's
(19:08):
taken this time and he's feltlike he's done something, then
he needs the safety of actuallynot deciding.
And then a lot of people notjust this husband, but a lot of
people want the safety of nothaving to decide.
And I tell people all the timethat the distance or the spot
between want and achievement isownership.
(19:29):
Explain it may be.
And then the spot where you'veattained it, that's a different
spot on the line.
The place where it begins tobecome yours is what you're
(19:51):
willing to take ownership of.
When you take an actionablechoice, when you actually do
something to take ownership ofyour want, it then becomes your
goal or then becomes yourachievement.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Or something you can achieve.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yes, you're starting on the process.
It's not a guaranteed outcome,but it then becomes possible.
Without ownership, a want isnever possible.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So my wanting I'll take it to a very mundane level
my wanting to lose weight andthen saying the reason I don't
is because my wife is such agreat cook, is a cop-out yes,
when the ownership would be.
I'll never lose weight until Itake actions that will lead to
that.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Even.
Furthermore, the ownershipwould be something.
Now, if any of you knowanything about Alice's banana
bread, this would be agargantuan feat.
The ownership here, in yourcase, would be saying no more
baked goods.
That would be, or extremelylimited under certain
circumstances, because I wouldnever put you into that.
But you get the point, yeah ithas to be practical, all right.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, let's just take this out further, toward where
you've been going In a workshopI did.
It had all men in it.
I asked the men how many of youhave had your wives say to you
be a man?
Nearly every hand went up.
And then I said and how many ofyou?
When you try to be a man?
Your wife said you'recontrolling and dominating.
Nearly every hand went up and Isaid so what I'm hearing and
(21:20):
tell me if I'm wrong or not isthat your wife doesn't see you
as being manly.
And when you do what you think,that means it comes across
badly.
And they said yeah, that'spretty much it Okay.
So in a situation like this,where you want people to take an
ownership, that kind of thing,how can they be manly and I
realize I'm throwing this at youwithout any preparation but how
(21:43):
can they be manly without and Irealize I'm throwing this at
you without any preparation buthow can they be manly without
being dictatorial?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, the first thing in this case is you have to ask
yourself or at least if I werehim okay, I'm thinking outside
myself here, but in hissituation you have to ask
yourself what attracted her tothe other man, what attracted
her to his brother, what is thearchetype that she's going to?
She's looking at someone whowas a go-getter.
You know, quote unquote ago-getter, somebody that made
(22:08):
decisions, somebody that owned abusiness, somebody that did all
of these things.
And then you have to ask ifyou're him, you say, well, what
does that person do?
Now, you don't impersonatesomebody that you're not, but if
that person is somebody thatmakes decisions, then you have
to be willing to make decisions.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Okay, no, I get it Like okay, what is she being
drawn to?
But at the same time, it's gotwhat is she leaving?
What is it that she doesn'twant to be part of?
And what I've heard you saythroughout this interview is his
being lackadaisical in thesense of life.
He's a very responsible man,does his job and people would
look at him as an ideal person.
(22:44):
Look at this guy.
If he says he'll do it, bygolly he's going to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He's our company man, because he's there and he'll
obey and et cetera.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But if we're looking for somebody to take on a new
project and be a passionateleader, he ain't the guy.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
He's not the guy, no-transcript.
He needs to make a decision.
(23:21):
He has been so used to handinghis decision-making off to
everyone else, including hiswife.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
But hasn't he, by default, made a decision by
giving empathy to his brotherand his wife and apparently not
being upset that his brother issleeping with his wife?
Isn't that a decision in and ofitself?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's an allowance because he gets to be a victim
there too.
You see, what happens is, ifyou allow these things to happen
, you still get to be poor,pitiful me, you still get to
hang yourself on your own littlecross and say I cared for the
(23:59):
person that offended me.
I cared for the person thatoffended me.
Yet the subtitle, the tinylittle part, the little block
underneath the movie title thatnobody ever reads, said and I
caused all of it myself.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
All right.
So if he comes to one of ourworkshops, what part of our
workshop, what part of what weteach, what part of what we do,
would be something that'sessential for this guy.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Pushes and pulls are a huge part, because you know,
and and and I want to, by theway, I want to say, when I say
sarcastically, I caused all ofit myself.
To reiterate, I'm not blaminghim for every single thing.
He didn't know where it wasleading Right and her actions
are her actions.
She chose to do what she choseto do Exactly.
But I believe that, first ofall, pushes and pulls, I believe
(24:47):
, are a huge part of this.
Learning about the behaviorsthat caused her to be in the
mindset that made her want toleave, that's huge.
Being able to learn the valuein making a decision on your own
and how that turns you into anattractive person.
Being able to say you know what, if something doesn't make
sense, then dang it, I'm notgoing to do it.
I'm going to stand up formyself.
(25:09):
The idea of being a man is nottoxic, it's not brutish, it's
just an idea.
It's just an idea where I'mgoing to see a value in what I
want and I'm going to claim thatand I'm going to stand by that.
And if you have to give reasonswhy, here the reasons why and
do that and guess what, that'sattractive.
Just like no man wants a womanthat just says whatever you say
(25:35):
dear all the time.
And the opposite is just astrue, right, exactly, at the end
of the day, that's part ofpushes and pulls at how it ties
into the pies what we teachabout attraction learning how to
state your own value, not justwith words but with actions,
with how you communicateyourself, how that then, when
(25:56):
you start acting a certain way,it clears your mind so that you
believe.
When you begin to believe youare something and you act that
way, you become that thing.
And when you become that thing,even if it's not radically
different but just substantivelydifferent from who you were
before, then the spouse thatleft realizes that that was
(26:17):
their mistake and they can comeback.
And it also, by the way,byproduct puts you in a place
where you don't receive themwith resentment and retribution,
but with maturity and withgrace, because there was a
resentment that he already hadtowards her, because it's
amazing how many people hand offtheir identity and have all
(26:39):
this duty towards everyone elseand they just, very quietly, are
just desperate.
It's the old Pink Floyd line,you know, hanging on in quiet
desperation is the English way.
It's just, he hated his lifethe whole time.
So if you hate your life thewhole time, get rid of it, do
different things, and then whenshe realizes because look,
limerence always ends.
(27:00):
So when that changes and shecomes back, you're not receiving
her with Freddy Krueger gloves,you're receiving her with
warmth and with grace and withlove and in a real masculine way
.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
What you're saying and what we definitely believe
in marriage helper, is this it'snot about one person dominating
the other, no matter whichgender he or she is, but but
when you come across to yourspouse and I'm talking
particularly to men now when youcome across as Casper Milk
Toast, you're just laid back,easygoing, to the point.
You see, I can't tell you howmany women have said this to me.
(27:39):
If I even say, let's go tolunch, where would you like to
go, my husband will always saywherever you wish, and you think
, well, he's just being polite.
But that pattern I've heardthis from many women over the
last year that pattern is I needyou to make some kind of
decision in life, even that.
And if she says I don't want togo there, let's go here.
(27:59):
At least you're still operatingas two individuals in equality.
It's not one bashing the othercontrolling individuals in
equality.
It's not one bashing, the othercontrolling.
But if you're always abdicating, I'm just going to do what I'm
supposed to do.
That said, you make thedecisions.
Woman after woman after woman inthe last year has told me I
can't stand that I lose respectfor me and, as you've been
(28:22):
describing in this situationmany, many times I have then
seen this woman fall for a guywho was strong.
I even asked one of them.
I said is it because of thefact that this guy is going to
be your leader and is going tomake all the decisions?
She said no, no, no, no, no.
It's because I want somebodywho treats me as an equal, and
you can't treat me as an equalwhen you're subservient to me.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
And what's interesting is that so many of
those people that don't and itoccurred to me now so many of
those people that don't makethose decisions that are always
like whatever you think,whatever you think, they don't
do it out of respect, they do itbecause they're afraid Possible
, they do it because they'reafraid of offense, or do it
because they're afraid of makinga mistake.
And if you are that person,then you are already putting
(29:06):
yourself in an unequal position.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Could it not also be people who really aren't
involved?
Could be Like that's a signthat I'm really detached from
you.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah.
Then here comes thedismissiveness and all of the
avoidance and all of that it's along conversation is this
gentleman, the husband?
His fear won and we talked andI gave him some space, because
(29:38):
some people look, you know, I'mnot here to force anybody to do
anything.
Why teach them on how to pullif you have to push right?
So gave him some space and, um,interestingly enough, uh, he
went on a retreat that weekendand said he had come back after
clearing his head and decided toget started.
And he came back and said that,um, he was just going to keep
(30:01):
doing what he was doing and hopewas going to be his strategy,
and that he just needs to makesure to not rock any bones and
that sometime, you know, somehow, this time doing the exact same
thing, we're going to betotally different.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That to me sounds like when I was diagnosed with
the prostate cancer and theysaid it's an aggressive kind, we
can't just watch it, we have totreat it.
If I said, no hope, I'm justgoing to hang on to hope.
But we have this protonradiation therapy, we have these
pills you need to take.
No, I'm just going to exist onhope.
(30:37):
And then if the stuff killed me, I would have said well, at
least I hoped.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, it's interesting to me.
I talk with so many people andlet's use your cancer as a case
for this I speak with so manypeople that would say you know
what?
I'm just going to wait on theLord.
Well, maybe God gave you theproton therapy Exactly.
Have you ever considered that?
That's how I think.
Yeah, and I had a lady on thephone one time.
(31:04):
She said I just really need topray about this, I really need
to think about it.
And look, I'm not making lightof your prayer life at all.
I say the same prayer everymorning when I come in here.
But I asked her.
I said what are you going topray for?
You could tell she was veryavoidant too.
She was very fearful.
She had had an interestingstory.
I said what are you going topray for?
(31:25):
She said I just need to knowwhat God wants me to do.
I said okay, can I ask you somequestions on that?
She said yeah, yeah, yeah.
How do you know when God tellsyou she goes?
(31:46):
Well, it's just, you just know,and it's a good feeling, and
it's Do you think God wants youto save your marriage?
She said well, that's what hesays.
Yeah, have you already beenpraying about it, or did it just
occur to you to pray?
No, I've been praying, for inher case it was six months.
We're trying to help save yourmarriage.
Has it ever occurred to youthat this might be the answer
(32:11):
you've been praying for?
It's the old adage of you'resitting on the top of the house
with the waters coming up andyou pray for God to save you
from the flood, and he's alreadysent you a boat and a kayak.
Here comes the helicopter.
It's time to get on board.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And I absolutely am convinced that you don't always
have a good feeling to do whatGod wants you to do.
I mean, Jesus would say whenyou go out this is Matthew,
chapter 9 and 10, when you goout and start preaching this
good news, they're going to hateyou, they're going to kill you.
I don't think they went.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yay, Didn't he say a crooked and perverse generation
is looking for a sign, right.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Anyway, we could go on forever about all that, but
sometimes it's courage that ittakes, All right.
So let's wrap this up.
We're talking particularly tomen in this particular session,
although it's very applicable towomen.
What we're looking for in arelationship is equality, not
dominance.
But it's not equality when theother person sees you as being
totally docile, that you're justkind of there and you're not
(33:09):
really contributing.
You might be bringing the moneyhome, you might be providing a
good shelter, but when it comesto life, you're avoidant of
making decisions, of doingthings.
So it's not domination, it'snot dictatorship, it's actually
inequality.
Now, our primary product thatwe in service that we have that
does the most good is ourcouples workshop, where you and
(33:30):
your spouse come together, butoccasionally about once a
quarter, I think I do a workshopjust for husbands and we'll be
doing one of those, jason, is itin the month of June?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I'll be doing one of those June 13th June 13th,
nathan knows I should have known.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You would know, june 13th, and while the couples
workshop is far superior, that'swhat we want people to come to.
If you're a guy and you'rethinking I need to understand
more about this, god willing,unless something bad happens,
I'm going to be leading thatworkshop, and so how do they get
in contact with us?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Okay, slash call and you can get to the right person.
It might be Nathan, it may beone of the folks that work with
Nathan, and we'd love to inviteyou to the couples workshop so
you can learn how to do thisquality and neither one of you
is dominant, that you're bothequal but equally strong,
although you'll also be equallyweak, because nobody's perfect.
(34:25):
Or, if you guys are saying no,I think I want to come to that
men's one, then it's June 13th.
June 13th weekend, fridaythrough Sunday.
Okay, so tell again how theycan get in touch with us.
Marriagehelpercom.
Slash call.
That's simple enough.
Thank you very much, nathan.
Yeah, thanks, john.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
Likewise, you make me think ofthings, things I like, that I
(34:50):
like.
That Beats the alternative.
No, at my age, sometimes I canjust sit.
Okay.
Thank you very much for beingwith us.
We want to help where wepossibly can.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Please contact us.
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