April 29, 2025 • 35 mins
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🔎 What Does Research Say About Marital Satisfaction Among Christians? | Marriage Helper + Barna Study
In this powerful episode, Dr. Joe Beam and Kimberly Beam Holmes dive deep into the fascinating findings from a 2021 survey conducted by Barna Research Group in partnership with Marriage Helper.
➡️ What percentage of Christian couples are truly satisfied in their marriages?
➡️ How does practicing faith impact marital happiness?
➡️ Why do men often report higher satisfaction — and what could they be missing?
➡️ Why does "somewhat satisfied" actually ring alarm bells for marriage health?
You'll hear behind-the-scenes insights into how the survey was designed, why self-reporting can be tricky (especially around sensitive topics like infidelity and satisfaction), and the real implications for couples — and churches — today.
Key Topics Covered: ✔️ Marital satisfaction breakdown across generations: Millennials, Gen X, and Boomers
✔️ Why “somewhat satisfied” may signal hidden danger
✔️ The critical difference between practicing and non-practicing Christians
✔️ How long couples typically wait before seeking help (hint: it’s way too long!)
✔️ Why churches struggle to support marriages—and how Marriage Helper is stepping in to help
✔️ Resources available RIGHT NOW for individuals and churches
📢 Free Resources + Support:
Want real help for your marriage or your church? Tap the link or card to access free resources, or book a call with our team at https://marriagehelper.com/call
💬 Let's Chat:
Have ideas for how marriage support could improve at your church? Drop your thoughts in the comments below—we read every one and your input shapes future resources!
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
📞 BOOK A CALL WITH OUR TEAM: https://marriagehelper.com/call
🔗 Website: https://marriagehelper.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On today's episode we are going to be diving deep
into a research study that well,polling survey is a better way
to say it that Marriage Helperpartnered with Barna Research
Group to do a couple of yearsago, but we've never actually
fleshed it out and what it means, and the findings are pretty
interesting, and so Dr Joe and Iare going to discuss that today
(00:20):
.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yes, I understand that Barna did the research and
we're working from their surveysand their numbers.
This is not our research.
Therefore, if you think somehowwe were biased, we didn't do
the research, we're going toshow you what they found Now.
Barna is pretty renowned forresearching Christian subjects,
am I correct?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
about that, yeah, and Christian audiences, and so,
very specifically, this was in2021 when we came to them, and
what we wanted them to help usfind was the percent of
Christian couples that had hadan affair in their marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, but they felt that was a little too risque for
them to ask that question,right?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, you're saying that nicely.
Yes, they very much said peoplearen't going to tell the truth,
so we're not going to ask.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, it is possible that people won't tell the truth
about that.
You know, part of my PhD degreewas studying sexology and we
know that when it comes to anysexual survey, unless you're
actually doing it face-to-facewhich can help a little bit but
when you do research in sexology, you'll find that people will
lie.
(01:25):
Like, for example, if you askwomen just out there in general
how many sex partners they'vehad so far in their lifetime,
they tend to underreport.
And if you ask men out therehow many sexual partners they've
had so far in their lifetime,they tend to overreport.
And both of those thingsapparently are tied to ego,
where she's saying I don't wantpeople to think I'm some kind of
slut forgive the word and hemight be thinking I want people
(01:47):
to think I'm some kind of aplayer.
And so in any survey there'salso always the potential of
people distorting their answersbased on how they feel that
people are going to perceivethem, even when the survey is
completely anonymous.
So in this survey here, somepeople will know that, as you've
(02:08):
worked on your PhD, you've hadto do research through surveys.
I've had to do research throughsurveys.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh no, no, no, I did research through an experimental
randomized control trial, notjust surveys.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yes, I did as well.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, you did Okay, and that's the I was trying to
say it simply, since most of ouraudience aren't PhDs I know At
least I assume you may all bePhDs, Listen but once you've
done a randomized control trial,it's just like I feel like you
just have to brag about itbecause it's so hard, it's so
hard to do.
(02:43):
But yes, so when we went toBarna and ultimately what we
were trying to do here isunderstand what is the current
marital satisfaction rate outthere in the general population,
realizing that Barna is alsogoing to have a biased audience
because they're probably goingto attract people who lean more
Christian and more Christianvalues than Because they're
known as a Christianorganization.
(03:03):
Right, exactly so, but what wewere looking at was marital
satisfaction and counseling.
How often do people usecounseling, things like that?
And so that's what we're goingto be going through.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, Now they can't see really well on our screen
here, but we can.
So forgive us if we turn tolook at the screen here.
You'll be able to see it onyour screen because it'll be a
graphic there.
But our producer over there,Jason, Jason, would you kind of
scroll it where I can see alittle bit of those numbers
there?
Now, understand that thedefinitions you're going to see
(03:33):
here when you look on thisgraphic, were not designed by us
.
They were designed by the Barnapeople, and so they refer to
Christians who areself-identified Christians.
Now notice they say, includingCatholics.
That might sound offensive toyou if you're Catholic, but
there are many Protestants whowould actually view Catholics as
(03:53):
not being Christians.
Now, I'm not giving you ouropinion.
I'm saying that that's why theyask it that way, because there
is some bias out there aboutthat.
So, self-identified Christians,including Catholics, and so 64%
of all the adults in thissurvey claimed they were
Christians.
Now, that's a pretty highpercentage, Because if you just
went out to the generalpopulation in general and asked
(04:14):
how many are Christians, itmight be that high, but that
seems pretty high based on howAmerica is behaving at this
point.
But look at the practicingChristians.
Now, this is their definitionof that.
I think I probably would havedone a different one, but they
said adults who identify asChristian.
Well, that part's important andthey have attended church
service online or in person inthe past month and practicing
(04:40):
Christians.
In the kind of church I grew upin, if you only came once a
month they wouldn't call you apracticing Christian.
But in this survey that'ssomething out there.
And then it says who say theirfaith is very important to their
life today 21% of them, whichmeans that one out of five said
(05:05):
I go to church at least once amonth and my faith is very
important to me and identify asa Christian.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Right.
How would you define itdifferently?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think I would define it more in terms of
prayer, life and spirituality,those kinds of things.
I don't think that churchattendance necessarily indicates
whether you're a practicingChristian or not, because
Barthel themselves found out ina survey several years ago that
there are millions of people whohave very strong faith that
(05:37):
don't go to church anymore, andthe reason they don't is because
one of the main reasons wasthat many churches had become
too political, and it's like Idon't want my pastor telling me
who to vote for, I don't want tohear sermons about how evil the
administration is, whicheveradministration it might be, et
cetera.
And so there are a lot ofpeople who pray, they read their
(05:59):
Bibles, they study, they maymeet in small groups, but they
don't go to church.
And if I were going to livepracticing Christians, I would
have identified in that factoras opposed to church attendance.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So the majority of people werenon-practicing Christians, who
identified as Christian butdidn't meet the definition of
practicing Christians.
And then it kind of breaks itdown from there.
And then they also break itdown generationally, which will
start mattering when we get intothe meat of what the study is.
So we know they broke it downinto millennials ages 22 and 36,
(06:31):
gen X, which were ages 37 to 55, and then boomers, aged 56
through 74.
I'm not even on that list.
You would have been back then.
I'm not even on that list.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You would have been back then, that's right, I would
have been.
Hey, I want to ask these peopleare we not boomers once we pass
74?
I mean, I'm 149, so surely Ishould be on there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, if you scroll down.
So here's the first and mainquestion that we were asking,
concerning your marriage overall, how frustrated or satisfied
are you?
And this was a Likert scalefrom one to five Type scale.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Likert type scale one to five, miss PhD.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Very frustrated all the way to very satisfied, and
so this is where things get abit interesting, when we begin
to see this middle graph righthere.
So it shows us as all US adults, so everyone combined, who took
the study, and then it beginsbreaking it down All US adults,
means of the 1,519 who were inthe research Exactly so we can
(07:38):
look at all Christians, whichincludes practicing and
non-practicing, and then we cansee non-Christians.
So when we just view thisoverall and just look at the
color differences, the darkyellow is very satisfied, the
dark blue is very frustrated,and then we know that it goes in
between.
What are the key things thatjump out at you?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Well, of the people who identify as Christians, that
there's a larger percentage ofthem who say they're either
somewhat satisfied or verysatisfied than those people who
are just in the generalpopulation out there, and
particularly of those who arenon-Christians or at least
(08:19):
identify as non-Christians.
But if you look at it, it'skind of an interesting thing
because if you look at thenon-Christians, but if you look
at it, it's kind of aninteresting thing because if you
look at the non-Christians,there's 4% totally frustrated,
6% of somewhat, that's 10, 16,some in the neutral, which we
would tend to count as negativeactually.
So that's 26%.
So 26% of people who say we'renot Christians are to the
(08:41):
neutral or frustrated side,whereas people who identify as
Christians, whether they go tochurch or not, that's eight in
eight, that's 16%.
So that's a pretty significantdifference.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Very significant difference.
The thing that I would love toknow more of is I would love to
know the qualitative side ofsomeone who answers somewhat
satisfied Because you're notgood enough, that you're saying,
yeah, very, we're very good.
So is it because you'reactually frustrated about some
(09:16):
things, but you don't want toadmit that your marriage is
worse off than you think it is?
Or is it just because you'renever going to say very
satisfied?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
One of the reasons that Kimberly's bringing that up
is because in our world, wherewe deal with marriages every day
I mean every day, and quiteoften we deal with marriages
that are having difficulty,crisis troubles, those kinds of
things Then what we hear a lotof times would be a story
somewhat like this I thought wewere OK, and then I found out
(09:46):
that.
And so to us, when we seesomewhat satisfied or, yeah,
somewhat satisfied, what we'rethinking is that may mean that
they're not really aware ofwhat's going on, because we hear
daily people that were somewhatsatisfied who found out that
what the other partner was doingor what the other partner was
(10:09):
feeling was actually causinggreat crisis to occur in the
marriage.
And so, for example, a guy toldme I came home from work one
day, the furniture was gone, allof our clothes were gone.
I was blindsided.
I never saw it coming.
Now we tend to hear that morefrom men than from women, but if
(10:30):
you had surveyed him, he wouldhave said even possibly very
satisfied, but at the very leasthe would have said somewhat
satisfied, but by not measuringthe partner as well, which is
the only way to really get agood idea about a marriage,
because if you just measure oneof them, you have a vision that
(10:52):
is pretty narrow.
You have to measure both ofthem.
And so in our world, in ourworld somewhat satisfied scares
us.
Now, if both of you aresomewhat satisfied, then you can
have a peaceful relationship.
You could say married 100 years?
Well, maybe not 100, but atleast 99.
And in that process it'll beokay.
(11:14):
But if we're not measuring bothpeople, if we see that one of
them is somewhat satisfied andthe other one is like somewhat
frustrated or very frustrated,and we actually have a survey
where we can measure that, it'snot ours.
It came back to them in the1980s.
It's called the Kansas MaritalSatisfaction Survey, where we
can measure him and her.
And several years ago, kimberly, I developed a four-quadrant
(11:38):
model that we developed so thatif we took his scores and her
scores and put them both in thatfour-quadrant model, we can
find out whether one of them isblind, whether one or both of
them are frustrated, et cetera,et cetera.
We've got four differentquadrants there.
I don't need to go into all ofthat.
And maybe sometime, kimberly,you and I can do a program where
we give it to people, butunless the couple is watching,
(12:01):
it's still not going to tell youwhat you need to know.
And then from that, I can'ttell you how many times I've
done that, speaking to audiencesall around America and actually
different parts of the world,where I would ask them those
three questions there's onlythree and then get them to get
their scores and look at it andfind out that one was satisfied
and the other one was frustrated.
(12:23):
And so when you put those twotogether, that meant the one
that believed that the marriagewas okay we put into what we
called the blind category.
You don't realize that thingsare going on, and so by just
measuring one side, I don't knowthat this tells you much.
You've got to measure both ofthem.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
The thing I was thinking of as well, seeing that
somewhat satisfied, andthinking about the Kansas
Marital Satisfaction Survey, is.
It's so astounding how highsomeone's score on the Kansas
Marital Satisfaction Survey canbe and it still shows that they
are in likelihood of marriagedistress.
(13:05):
So it's based on a seven.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A seven point scale.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Each question has that seven point scale.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So the highest score is 21.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The highest score is 21, but then the cutoff score
for an indication of an unhappymarriage is 17.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's either 17 or 16.
I'd have to look it up, but yes.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And so that's only two sixes and a five.
So that's only two somewhathappies and one neutral.
That's somewhat satisfied, twosomewhat satisfied and one
neutral.
On the Kansas maritalsatisfaction is indication of
unhealth.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And what they have done with that thing over the
years like I said, it came outback in the mid 1980s is they
have compared it to otherinstruments that have been
developed since then, as well asinstruments that were developed
before then, to findcorrelation.
And they find that the scoreson the marital Kansas marital
satisfaction survey.
I need to get my gingers fixed.
(14:05):
Actually, these are my realteeth.
I'm sorry, you don't havedentures, that if you compare
them to the other instruments,it turns out to be accurate.
And so if you're 16 or less,it's saying that your marriage
is in distress.
And, like I said, I have donethat by putting it up on the
screen, speaking to churches allaround the country and showing
them that we're making thisrelatively early in 2025.
(14:30):
And later this year I'm goingto be teaching a whole bunch of
ministers and I'm going to showthem how to use that in a sermon
to get an idea how manymarriages in their church are
really in difficulty, even ifone of them doesn't realize it
yet.
Now here's the problem If Ishow those guys how to do that,
what are they going to do?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Exactly 100%.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Because they're going to show it.
These people are going to getthe scores, they're going to be
hit up.
Help us.
And those ministers, thosepastors, those elders, those
deacons, whatever it might be,are going to be going.
What do we do?
What do we do?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
We don't know how to help them.
Okay, I mean we do at MarriageHelper.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
The churches are going to say that they don't
know how to help them.
Be careful how you say thatthere, we do know how to help
them.
Isn't there something right nowyou could even mention?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
that?
Yeah for sure.
We have a free resourceavailable.
You can go ahead and click thelink or the box that shows up on
the screen and get that freeresource for you right now.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
And it can have an individual, but we can also
train churches.
If these difficulties are goingto happen, we can show you how
to help them.
And so when I present that inOctober of 2025, and if you're
seeing this after, thenunderstand this already occurred
I'm going to be offering tothem you can come to this
three-day thing that we willhave developed by then, that we
(15:51):
can't just look at her panicover there like what, what A
three-day thing we'll do by thenthat they can come to and we'll
train them how to help thosemarriages.
Not in the sense of making themmarriage counselors.
The therapists Can't do that inthree days, but how can you
help on a pastoral level and howcan you know whom to refer on?
(16:12):
And then how can we come in andhelp you, which we're very
happy to do.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely.
In fact, if any of you arewatching this and saying that
sounds interesting, I would loveto know more about that when it
comes out.
Just leave a comment below.
What would better marriage helplook like inside of your church
?
Because your church is probablynot alone.
Most churches struggle in thisarea.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And if you could write in that comment here's the
particular help we believe weneed, or these are the problems
we typically see.
Put them in those comments.
That'll help us develop moreand more programs to help you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, Another key thing to see here.
So we've talked about thesenumbers.
You know for me that lighteryellow, I feel, is going to move
one way or the other.
They're going to move into verysatisfied, hopefully eventually
, or they're going to startmoving into those blue zones
which, in this case, would notbe a good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Now, in the generation before mine, people
could stay in that section For along time, a long time, but the
world has changed.
Yeah, very few people now willtolerate being somewhat
satisfied.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, right, very much so, and if we look down
here, we see another key elementfor this study is that men
express greater satisfaction intheir marriages than women.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That's because they don't have a clue what's going
on.
Not a clue.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Not a clue, but we see this all the time, do we not
?
We see this all the time.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
If you're a guy, I apologize.
I mean, I know I've turned onmy own people here and I
realized that you may have aclue.
But it's so common that the manis so focused on making a
living and doing other thingsthat even when she says I'm not
happy, he tends to discount itlike well, sure, you're happy.
(17:59):
And often, kimberly, they'llbase it on negative goodness,
like I don't drink, I don'tsmoke, I don't chew, I don't
hang out with people that do.
Therefore you must be happy.
Well, while it's important notto do certain things that will
hurt a marriage, not doing thethings that will hurt a marriage
doesn't make it stronger, itjust keeps it from getting
weaker.
And so often guys and nooffense, fellas, I've been in
(18:21):
the same boat.
Offense, fellas, I've been inthe same boat we don't know what
we need to be doing on thepositive side to make the
marriage better and we're notreally hearing what's being said
by our wives.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think there's also two other reasons here.
That men?
Yes, I think that they do that,but then let's look at the two
different types of men.
So I think there's the men.
Are there only two?
Let's look at the two maindifferent types of men.
So, there's these men that aresuper strong personalities and
may have a tendency to downplaytheir wife's emotions because
(18:51):
they think they know everything.
Clearly, that's going to leadto them thinking the marriage is
great because in their mindit's great, Everything's going
my way.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Everything's going my way, it's great.
Then there's the men who justwant their wives to be happy and
they are bending over backwards, fawning over her, just trying
to do whatever she says,whatever she wants, so she'll be
happy.
Therefore, he's well, that's aninteresting one, would he say.
He's satisfied.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Probably not, but he might be in the somewhat
satisfied until she winds upactually moving into the
frustrated.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And he can't understand why, because I'm
doing everything she wants.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Exactly Now, if you're either one of those two
types of men and, by the way,there are more than two but if
you're one of those two types ofmen, you need to come see us.
Typically, I am the one whodoes the workshop.
That's for men only.
If not, it's because eitherI've been booked overseas or
something, or because of thefact that I might be ill.
(19:53):
I'm getting a little older inmy life and just a few months
ago I had to deal with somecancer and that kind of thing,
so I missed some workshops.
But you can find out about ourmen's workshops, guys, where men
come together right here inMiddle Tennessee.
No women there as clients.
I'll typically bring in somewomen helpers for me, but men
(20:14):
only as clients.
And so if you're either one ofthose like I've been dominating
at least that's what she tellsme and she says he doesn't want
to be married to me anymore Comesee me, or I've been giving her
everything and now she's leftme for some other guy.
I can explain to you why shedid that or why that she's lost
respect for you.
I can explain that to come seeme, and we do these about once
(20:37):
every two or three months.
One of these men's things, andif you want to find out about
how to do that, you go tomarriagehelpercom slash, call
that C-A-L-L and you come to theworkshop.
Now, unless something badhappens, I'm going to be there.
I'm asking you please come seeme so we can help you if you're
(20:57):
in either one of those twothings, because there are ways
to turn it around and save themarriage, even if she now
believes that she's madly inlove with someone else, or even
if she says she can neverforgive you or that she can
never love you.
We have seen those miraculousturnarounds again and again and
again.
So please come see me.
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
(21:20):
Ask for the men-only workshop.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the other interestingthings that we see here is that,
of all of the percentages sofar, the group, the demographic
that has the lowest satisfactionrate is Gen X.
So that's the 37 to 55 agerange.
Why do you think that is?
(21:44):
They're the least likely to beset, or they're the least likely
to be very satisfied.
The Gen X generation.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I don't know, but you're asking my opinion.
Okay, Him of the ages again 37to 55.
You see, my generation, I'm inthe boomer generation.
My generation tend to try tomake everything wonderful for
the intergeneration thatfollowed us.
Like, typically, we had to workour way up from from nowhere,
(22:14):
all right, and I mean some of usinherited a lot of money, but
not not.
I, my brothers and I startedwith nothing and he started
businesses and et cetera, etcetera, and so we tended to make
things too easy for our kids.
Therefore, I think that some ofthe Gen X has actually come
along thinking everything shouldbe easy.
(22:34):
And marriage is not easy.
Now, this is just my opinion.
I don't have any research onthis.
Marriage is not easy and Idon't think they were prepared
for.
You have to work because of ofwhat we thinking.
You're going to have a betterchildhood than I did get for
them.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think also it's the thick of hard parenting.
So teenage parenting at thoseages your kids are more likely
to be adolescent to teenagers,to empty nesters, those ages
your kids are more likely to beadolescent to teenagers, to
empty nesters.
So it's kind of covering thatgamut of that family life cycle
as well.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, I saw a cool thing about Ben Affleck the
other day.
He's the actor Ben Affleck.
I'm sure you guys have seen him.
He's a tremendous actor.
And his son came to him andsaid Dad, I found a pair of
sneakers.
They cost $6,000.
I want you to buy it for me.
And Dad said no.
And his son said to him but wehave the money.
And Aflac said no, I have themoney.
(23:38):
You're broke.
And if you want to go out thereand figure out how to earn
$6,000 and take that hard-earned$6,000 and buy those shoes,
feel free.
So he's joining the ranks ofmany people in his age group who
are saying I'm not going todestroy my children by giving
(23:58):
them everything.
They're going to have to learnhow to work for that.
Now, I realize that's a littledifferent than what we're
talking about here, but I justread that the other day and I
thought that is so cool.
And as for Kimberly, who is mydaughter, I keep telling her I
don't know why you work me todeath, because there's nothing
to inherit.
Whatever she has, she's had toearn on her own, earn her
(24:19):
husband, rob, and they've donewell.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
That is true.
We have had to earn it.
So, going down, we see the nextquestion, which is the second
and final question that we askedin the survey, which is in the
past 12 months, have youconsidered getting help for your
marriage yes, no or not sure?
Thankfully, there was not alarge amount of people that said
not sure, but the vast majorityof all of the people who
(24:43):
answered said no.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Don't need it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Eight and a half out of 10 people said no, even when
they were very frustrated,somewhat frustrated, neutral
about their marriage andinteresting.
I find this interesting churchstatus has a difference.
So people were half as likelyto consider getting help for
their marriage if they werechurched versus unchurched,
(25:09):
which you pointed out.
But they have less frustration,they're more satisfied if they
are practicing Christians.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Now, if I'm looking at this thing, the people who
have considered are these peoplewho have considered marriage
counseling?
Is that what this chart is overhere?
And so it says that 50% offrustrated people have?
Is that correct?
And is that under maritalsatisfaction?
No, I'm missing.
I can't understand that chart.
(25:40):
Explain that to me please.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, so it's breaking it down by different
demographics.
So, white adults are the leastlikely, according to the
ethnicity, to consider gettingany help for their marriage.
Boomers are the least likely oftheir generation to consider
getting marriage help, whichmakes sense.
Millennials would be the mostlikely, which also makes sense.
People who have children under18 are more likely to consider
(26:06):
it based versus no children.
So this is breaking down the 14percent the red 14 percent.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
OK, that's what confused me there.
Thank you, yes, I do have anearned doctorate from University
of Sydney I actually do whichis a very prestigious university
, so I hope they don't see this.
They may take it back.
You couldn't understand thatsimple.
So the 14% who would considerit?
This is how that breaks downthe largest group, then of
course, would be the frustrated.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Right, the people who are frustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
But 84% won't consider it at all.
That's right.
How often?
You've quoted this many times?
According to the Altman'sresearch, how long does it take
before people decide to get help?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Seven years.
Seven years Of being frustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And then finally will decide to seek help.
Now, why would people wait solong?
Well, there might be ego like Ican fix this, I don't need
anybody else to help me.
We hear men say that a lot, Ican fix this, I don't need
anybody's help.
Well, if that's the case, thenforget about going to the doctor
or the dentist or anybody else.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
There are things sometimes we face, but men don't
do that either.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
You are hitting the nail on the head.
Men don't go to the dentist,they don't go to the doctor and
they don't get help for theirmarriage.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Hmm, I stand corrected.
Now I do, but of course I'vehad prostate cancer so I do
those things.
But I'm just thinking right now.
I missed my last dentalappointment and haven't made
another one.
So I guess you're right aboutthat.
(27:43):
So, yes, I yield to your point.
But here's another one, andthat's that so many counselors
have gotten such bad reputationsthat the whole field suffers
Like lawyers make jokes aboutthat all the time, how that a
bad lawyer, the whole profession, winds up with bad reputations,
(28:05):
and that can happen withcounseling as well.
I want to tell you that thereare some excellent counselors
out there.
They're amazing.
They're really, really good atwhat they do.
But if I were you and I weregoing to receive counseling for
my marriage, I would ask thecounselor, the therapist, are
you going to use me as theclient, my spouse as a client,
or the marriage as the client?
(28:26):
And if they say, I don't knowwhat you mean by that, just go
right on down the street andfind somebody else.
You want one that will make themarriage to be the client.
So there's some really goodones out there.
Unfortunately, like in everyother profession, some are
mediocre and some are terrible,and they can actually do more
damage, and we have heard somany stories about that.
(28:47):
And so if you're afraid ofgoing to marriage counseling
because you've heard so many badstories about how they'll wind
up splitting you up.
Come see us.
We will do everything we can tohelp you fix your marriage.
We won't pressure you, we won'ttwist your arm, we don't preach
at you, we don't try to makeyou feel guilty.
We work through an educationalprocess, but we always see the
(29:09):
marriage as the client, and sowe try to help the husband and
wife figure out how to do thosethings.
And another thing if your spouseis hesitant, like they're not
going to see a marriagecounselor because they'll have
to go once a week for the nextsix months, you can come see us
for three days.
Three days and after three daysyou'll have a pretty good idea
about what you're going to dowith your marriage.
(29:29):
And if you need more help, wehave coaches you can talk to on
the phone so you don't have togo somewhere to see a marriage
counselor.
Now, if you have a goodmarriage counselor, one that's
really effective and sees themarriage as a client, don't
leave them.
Stay with them.
Thank God you found somebodygood and hang in there with them
because it'll be awesome worktheir way to go.
We never try to take peopleaway from their counselors and
(29:53):
therapists.
That's unethical.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
But we also, at the same time say we will help you
so overall, why do you thinkthat, according to barna's group
, the, or at least the, thesample that they have access to,
that practicing Christians havethe most satisfying marriages?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I think, because they believe they're supposed to.
Therefore, a lot of them Idon't know what percentage it
would be, but at least some ofthem, let me say it that way are
going to report that they'revery satisfied because of the
fact it is supposed to be thatway, but also, at the same time,
when two people share beliefsand values, where it's genuine,
(30:36):
where they really share thosebeliefs and values, I think they
are much happier, much moresatisfied.
And so I would say some ofthose people are telling the
absolute truth because theytruly do share their beliefs and
values and therefore, as aresult of that, their marriages
are extremely satisfying.
And then there are some I don'tknow if that's 2% or what there
(30:56):
are some of them that aresaying what they think they're
supposed to say or how thingsare supposed to be in their mind
.
But do I believe that a couplethat goes to church together or
home church together, or atleast studies and prays together
, will have a more satisfiedmarriage?
Yeah, Particularly, if theirprayers aren't rituals like now
I lay me down to sleep, I prayto the Lord my soul to keep that
(31:19):
kind of thing, but real, openand honest prayers.
If you're being open and honest.
When you're praying with eachother, you're becoming very
transparent to God and to eachother and we teach the power of
transparency in developingintimacy in a marriage and
acceptance in a marriage, andacceptance is the key to love.
(31:40):
So practicing Christians whoare really doing those kinds of
things, not just going to churchtogether sitting with each
other on a pew, doesn't reallymake that much difference as to
how spiritual you are.
It can, but it's not.
The biggest deal.
It's whether you're prayingtogether, studying together,
opening up, talking to eachother together, discussing
scripture together all thosekinds of things.
(32:01):
Couples that do that, yeah, I'mconvinced those couples really
do have the best marriages.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I don't know about you, but there's a difference
between seeing a couple whotheir whole life has said
everything's been great, wherewe've always been very satisfied
, versus the couple that's gonethrough the trial, the
tribulation, the affair, thecrisis and now are saying we're
very satisfied.
I feel like I can trust thatyes, absolutely.
(32:31):
I don't trust this one.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Well, yes, you can, but not to the degree you're
going to trust it after they'vebeen to the other.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Maybe a light level of trust there but over there a
much deeper level of trust,because it's like it's been
proven Right.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
A few years ago, a marriage counselor said
something to me after all thestuff that you know, when I
divorced Alice, left her foranother woman finally came back.
Alice, took me back, remarriedme, we had you, as well as
children we already had, etc.
Etc.
Years after that because of thefact that sometimes I joke
around a lot and those kinds ofthings she said if you're not
careful, your wife's going toleave you.
And I started laughing and shesaid you're insulting me.
(33:12):
What's so funny?
I said I don't mean to insultyou, but if there's anybody on
the planet that knows his wifeloves him completely and is not
going to leave me unlesssomething terrible, terrible
happens, it is.
I.
My wife and my children love methat much and I trust that love
and they trust me, which is whyI won't ever do all that crappy
(33:33):
stuff again.
So, yes, you're right, itbuilds a deeper level of trust,
without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, those are, those are our results.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, now we'll get a call from Barna telling us that
we have corrupted your wholesurvey.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
We could give them some feedback on how to optimize
it better next time.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They're a well-known organization.
Nothing against Barna.
They're very good at what theydo.
We just think we could havedone that survey better, but not
because we're better andsmarter, but because we work in
this field directly andtherefore we know a lot more
about it.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, for sure.
We always love to help you anyway.
We can Check out those freeresources that we talked about.
Book a call with someone on ourteam.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And until next time, come see me, please, and there's
always hope.
On today's episode we are going to be diving deep
into a research study that well,polling survey is a better way
to say it that Marriage Helperpartnered with Barna Research
Group to do a couple of yearsago, but we've never actually
fleshed it out and what it means, and the findings are pretty
interesting, and so Dr Joe and Iare going to discuss that today
(00:20):
.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yes, I understand that Barna did the research and
we're working from their surveysand their numbers.
This is not our research.
Therefore, if you think somehowwe were biased, we didn't do
the research, we're going toshow you what they found Now.
Barna is pretty renowned forresearching Christian subjects,
am I correct?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
about that, yeah, and Christian audiences, and so,
very specifically, this was in2021 when we came to them, and
what we wanted them to help usfind was the percent of
Christian couples that had hadan affair in their marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, but they felt that was a little too risque for
them to ask that question,right?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, you're saying that nicely.
Yes, they very much said peoplearen't going to tell the truth,
so we're not going to ask.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, it is possible that people won't tell the truth
about that.
You know, part of my PhD degreewas studying sexology and we
know that when it comes to anysexual survey, unless you're
actually doing it face-to-facewhich can help a little bit but
when you do research in sexology, you'll find that people will
lie.
(01:25):
Like, for example, if you askwomen just out there in general
how many sex partners they'vehad so far in their lifetime,
they tend to underreport.
And if you ask men out therehow many sexual partners they've
had so far in their lifetime,they tend to overreport.
And both of those thingsapparently are tied to ego,
where she's saying I don't wantpeople to think I'm some kind of
slut forgive the word and hemight be thinking I want people
(01:47):
to think I'm some kind of aplayer.
And so in any survey there'salso always the potential of
people distorting their answersbased on how they feel that
people are going to perceivethem, even when the survey is
completely anonymous.
So in this survey here, somepeople will know that, as you've
(02:08):
worked on your PhD, you've hadto do research through surveys.
I've had to do research throughsurveys.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh no, no, no, I did research through an experimental
randomized control trial, notjust surveys.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yes, I did as well.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, you did Okay, and that's the I was trying to
say it simply, since most of ouraudience aren't PhDs I know At
least I assume you may all bePhDs, Listen but once you've
done a randomized control trial,it's just like I feel like you
just have to brag about itbecause it's so hard, it's so
hard to do.
(02:43):
But yes, so when we went toBarna and ultimately what we
were trying to do here isunderstand what is the current
marital satisfaction rate outthere in the general population,
realizing that Barna is alsogoing to have a biased audience
because they're probably goingto attract people who lean more
Christian and more Christianvalues than Because they're
known as a Christianorganization.
(03:03):
Right, exactly so, but what wewere looking at was marital
satisfaction and counseling.
How often do people usecounseling, things like that?
And so that's what we're goingto be going through.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Okay, Now they can't see really well on our screen
here, but we can.
So forgive us if we turn tolook at the screen here.
You'll be able to see it onyour screen because it'll be a
graphic there.
But our producer over there,Jason, Jason, would you kind of
scroll it where I can see alittle bit of those numbers
there?
Now, understand that thedefinitions you're going to see
(03:33):
here when you look on thisgraphic, were not designed by us
.
They were designed by the Barnapeople, and so they refer to
Christians who areself-identified Christians.
Now notice they say, includingCatholics.
That might sound offensive toyou if you're Catholic, but
there are many Protestants whowould actually view Catholics as
(03:53):
not being Christians.
Now, I'm not giving you ouropinion.
I'm saying that that's why theyask it that way, because there
is some bias out there aboutthat.
So, self-identified Christians,including Catholics, and so 64%
of all the adults in thissurvey claimed they were
Christians.
Now, that's a pretty highpercentage, Because if you just
went out to the generalpopulation in general and asked
(04:14):
how many are Christians, itmight be that high, but that
seems pretty high based on howAmerica is behaving at this
point.
But look at the practicingChristians.
Now, this is their definitionof that.
I think I probably would havedone a different one, but they
said adults who identify asChristian.
Well, that part's important andthey have attended church
service online or in person inthe past month and practicing
(04:40):
Christians.
In the kind of church I grew upin, if you only came once a
month they wouldn't call you apracticing Christian.
But in this survey that'ssomething out there.
And then it says who say theirfaith is very important to their
life today 21% of them, whichmeans that one out of five said
(05:05):
I go to church at least once amonth and my faith is very
important to me and identify asa Christian.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Right.
How would you define itdifferently?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think I would define it more in terms of
prayer, life and spirituality,those kinds of things.
I don't think that churchattendance necessarily indicates
whether you're a practicingChristian or not, because
Barthel themselves found out ina survey several years ago that
there are millions of people whohave very strong faith that
(05:37):
don't go to church anymore, andthe reason they don't is because
one of the main reasons wasthat many churches had become
too political, and it's like Idon't want my pastor telling me
who to vote for, I don't want tohear sermons about how evil the
administration is, whicheveradministration it might be, et
cetera.
And so there are a lot ofpeople who pray, they read their
(05:59):
Bibles, they study, they maymeet in small groups, but they
don't go to church.
And if I were going to livepracticing Christians, I would
have identified in that factoras opposed to church attendance.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So the majority of people werenon-practicing Christians, who
identified as Christian butdidn't meet the definition of
practicing Christians.
And then it kind of breaks itdown from there.
And then they also break itdown generationally, which will
start mattering when we get intothe meat of what the study is.
So we know they broke it downinto millennials ages 22 and 36,
(06:31):
gen X, which were ages 37 to 55, and then boomers, aged 56
through 74.
I'm not even on that list.
You would have been back then.
I'm not even on that list.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You would have been back then, that's right, I would
have been.
Hey, I want to ask these peopleare we not boomers once we pass
74?
I mean, I'm 149, so surely Ishould be on there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, if you scroll down.
So here's the first and mainquestion that we were asking,
concerning your marriage overall, how frustrated or satisfied
are you?
And this was a Likert scalefrom one to five Type scale.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Likert type scale one to five, miss PhD.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Very frustrated all the way to very satisfied, and
so this is where things get abit interesting, when we begin
to see this middle graph righthere.
So it shows us as all US adults, so everyone combined, who took
the study, and then it beginsbreaking it down All US adults,
means of the 1,519 who were inthe research Exactly so we can
(07:38):
look at all Christians, whichincludes practicing and
non-practicing, and then we cansee non-Christians.
So when we just view thisoverall and just look at the
color differences, the darkyellow is very satisfied, the
dark blue is very frustrated,and then we know that it goes in
between.
What are the key things thatjump out at you?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Well, of the people who identify as Christians, that
there's a larger percentage ofthem who say they're either
somewhat satisfied or verysatisfied than those people who
are just in the generalpopulation out there, and
particularly of those who arenon-Christians or at least
(08:19):
identify as non-Christians.
But if you look at it, it'skind of an interesting thing
because if you look at thenon-Christians, but if you look
at it, it's kind of aninteresting thing because if you
look at the non-Christians,there's 4% totally frustrated,
6% of somewhat, that's 10, 16,some in the neutral, which we
would tend to count as negativeactually.
So that's 26%.
So 26% of people who say we'renot Christians are to the
(08:41):
neutral or frustrated side,whereas people who identify as
Christians, whether they go tochurch or not, that's eight in
eight, that's 16%.
So that's a pretty significantdifference.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Very significant difference.
The thing that I would love toknow more of is I would love to
know the qualitative side ofsomeone who answers somewhat
satisfied Because you're notgood enough, that you're saying,
yeah, very, we're very good.
So is it because you'reactually frustrated about some
(09:16):
things, but you don't want toadmit that your marriage is
worse off than you think it is?
Or is it just because you'renever going to say very
satisfied?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
One of the reasons that Kimberly's bringing that up
is because in our world, wherewe deal with marriages every day
I mean every day, and quiteoften we deal with marriages
that are having difficulty,crisis troubles, those kinds of
things Then what we hear a lotof times would be a story
somewhat like this I thought wewere OK, and then I found out
(09:46):
that.
And so to us, when we seesomewhat satisfied or, yeah,
somewhat satisfied, what we'rethinking is that may mean that
they're not really aware ofwhat's going on, because we hear
daily people that were somewhatsatisfied who found out that
what the other partner was doingor what the other partner was
(10:09):
feeling was actually causinggreat crisis to occur in the
marriage.
And so, for example, a guy toldme I came home from work one
day, the furniture was gone, allof our clothes were gone.
I was blindsided.
I never saw it coming.
Now we tend to hear that morefrom men than from women, but if
(10:30):
you had surveyed him, he wouldhave said even possibly very
satisfied, but at the very leasthe would have said somewhat
satisfied, but by not measuringthe partner as well, which is
the only way to really get agood idea about a marriage,
because if you just measure oneof them, you have a vision that
(10:52):
is pretty narrow.
You have to measure both ofthem.
And so in our world, in ourworld somewhat satisfied scares
us.
Now, if both of you aresomewhat satisfied, then you can
have a peaceful relationship.
You could say married 100 years?
Well, maybe not 100, but atleast 99.
And in that process it'll beokay.
(11:14):
But if we're not measuring bothpeople, if we see that one of
them is somewhat satisfied andthe other one is like somewhat
frustrated or very frustrated,and we actually have a survey
where we can measure that, it'snot ours.
It came back to them in the1980s.
It's called the Kansas MaritalSatisfaction Survey, where we
can measure him and her.
And several years ago, kimberly, I developed a four-quadrant
(11:38):
model that we developed so thatif we took his scores and her
scores and put them both in thatfour-quadrant model, we can
find out whether one of them isblind, whether one or both of
them are frustrated, et cetera,et cetera.
We've got four differentquadrants there.
I don't need to go into all ofthat.
And maybe sometime, kimberly,you and I can do a program where
we give it to people, butunless the couple is watching,
(12:01):
it's still not going to tell youwhat you need to know.
And then from that, I can'ttell you how many times I've
done that, speaking to audiencesall around America and actually
different parts of the world,where I would ask them those
three questions there's onlythree and then get them to get
their scores and look at it andfind out that one was satisfied
and the other one was frustrated.
(12:23):
And so when you put those twotogether, that meant the one
that believed that the marriagewas okay we put into what we
called the blind category.
You don't realize that thingsare going on, and so by just
measuring one side, I don't knowthat this tells you much.
You've got to measure both ofthem.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
The thing I was thinking of as well, seeing that
somewhat satisfied, andthinking about the Kansas
Marital Satisfaction Survey, is.
It's so astounding how highsomeone's score on the Kansas
Marital Satisfaction Survey canbe and it still shows that they
are in likelihood of marriagedistress.
(13:05):
So it's based on a seven.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A seven point scale.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Each question has that seven point scale.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So the highest score is 21.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The highest score is 21, but then the cutoff score
for an indication of an unhappymarriage is 17.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's either 17 or 16.
I'd have to look it up, but yes.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And so that's only two sixes and a five.
So that's only two somewhathappies and one neutral.
That's somewhat satisfied, twosomewhat satisfied and one
neutral.
On the Kansas maritalsatisfaction is indication of
unhealth.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And what they have done with that thing over the
years like I said, it came outback in the mid 1980s is they
have compared it to otherinstruments that have been
developed since then, as well asinstruments that were developed
before then, to findcorrelation.
And they find that the scoreson the marital Kansas marital
satisfaction survey.
I need to get my gingers fixed.
(14:05):
Actually, these are my realteeth.
I'm sorry, you don't havedentures, that if you compare
them to the other instruments,it turns out to be accurate.
And so if you're 16 or less,it's saying that your marriage
is in distress.
And, like I said, I have donethat by putting it up on the
screen, speaking to churches allaround the country and showing
them that we're making thisrelatively early in 2025.
(14:30):
And later this year I'm goingto be teaching a whole bunch of
ministers and I'm going to showthem how to use that in a sermon
to get an idea how manymarriages in their church are
really in difficulty, even ifone of them doesn't realize it
yet.
Now here's the problem If Ishow those guys how to do that,
what are they going to do?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Exactly 100%.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Because they're going to show it.
These people are going to getthe scores, they're going to be
hit up.
Help us.
And those ministers, thosepastors, those elders, those
deacons, whatever it might be,are going to be going.
What do we do?
What do we do?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
We don't know how to help them.
Okay, I mean we do at MarriageHelper.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
The churches are going to say that they don't
know how to help them.
Be careful how you say thatthere, we do know how to help
them.
Isn't there something right nowyou could even mention?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
that?
Yeah for sure.
We have a free resourceavailable.
You can go ahead and click thelink or the box that shows up on
the screen and get that freeresource for you right now.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
And it can have an individual, but we can also
train churches.
If these difficulties are goingto happen, we can show you how
to help them.
And so when I present that inOctober of 2025, and if you're
seeing this after, thenunderstand this already occurred
I'm going to be offering tothem you can come to this
three-day thing that we willhave developed by then, that we
(15:51):
can't just look at her panicover there like what, what A
three-day thing we'll do by thenthat they can come to and we'll
train them how to help thosemarriages.
Not in the sense of making themmarriage counselors.
The therapists Can't do that inthree days, but how can you
help on a pastoral level and howcan you know whom to refer on?
(16:12):
And then how can we come in andhelp you, which we're very
happy to do.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely.
In fact, if any of you arewatching this and saying that
sounds interesting, I would loveto know more about that when it
comes out.
Just leave a comment below.
What would better marriage helplook like inside of your church
?
Because your church is probablynot alone.
Most churches struggle in thisarea.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And if you could write in that comment here's the
particular help we believe weneed, or these are the problems
we typically see.
Put them in those comments.
That'll help us develop moreand more programs to help you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, Another key thing to see here.
So we've talked about thesenumbers.
You know for me that lighteryellow, I feel, is going to move
one way or the other.
They're going to move into verysatisfied, hopefully eventually
, or they're going to startmoving into those blue zones
which, in this case, would notbe a good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Now, in the generation before mine, people
could stay in that section For along time, a long time, but the
world has changed.
Yeah, very few people now willtolerate being somewhat
satisfied.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, right, very much so, and if we look down
here, we see another key elementfor this study is that men
express greater satisfaction intheir marriages than women.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
That's because they don't have a clue what's going
on.
Not a clue.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Not a clue, but we see this all the time, do we not
?
We see this all the time.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
If you're a guy, I apologize.
I mean, I know I've turned onmy own people here and I
realized that you may have aclue.
But it's so common that the manis so focused on making a
living and doing other thingsthat even when she says I'm not
happy, he tends to discount itlike well, sure, you're happy.
(17:59):
And often, kimberly, they'llbase it on negative goodness,
like I don't drink, I don'tsmoke, I don't chew, I don't
hang out with people that do.
Therefore you must be happy.
Well, while it's important notto do certain things that will
hurt a marriage, not doing thethings that will hurt a marriage
doesn't make it stronger, itjust keeps it from getting
weaker.
And so often guys and nooffense, fellas, I've been in
(18:21):
the same boat.
Offense, fellas, I've been inthe same boat we don't know what
we need to be doing on thepositive side to make the
marriage better and we're notreally hearing what's being said
by our wives.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think there's also two other reasons here.
That men?
Yes, I think that they do that,but then let's look at the two
different types of men.
So I think there's the men.
Are there only two?
Let's look at the two maindifferent types of men.
So, there's these men that aresuper strong personalities and
may have a tendency to downplaytheir wife's emotions because
(18:51):
they think they know everything.
Clearly, that's going to leadto them thinking the marriage is
great because in their mindit's great, Everything's going
my way.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Everything's going my way, it's great.
Then there's the men who justwant their wives to be happy and
they are bending over backwards, fawning over her, just trying
to do whatever she says,whatever she wants, so she'll be
happy.
Therefore, he's well, that's aninteresting one, would he say.
He's satisfied.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Probably not, but he might be in the somewhat
satisfied until she winds upactually moving into the
frustrated.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And he can't understand why, because I'm
doing everything she wants.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Exactly Now, if you're either one of those two
types of men and, by the way,there are more than two but if
you're one of those two types ofmen, you need to come see us.
Typically, I am the one whodoes the workshop.
That's for men only.
If not, it's because eitherI've been booked overseas or
something, or because of thefact that I might be ill.
(19:53):
I'm getting a little older inmy life and just a few months
ago I had to deal with somecancer and that kind of thing,
so I missed some workshops.
But you can find out about ourmen's workshops, guys, where men
come together right here inMiddle Tennessee.
No women there as clients.
I'll typically bring in somewomen helpers for me, but men
(20:14):
only as clients.
And so if you're either one ofthose like I've been dominating
at least that's what she tellsme and she says he doesn't want
to be married to me anymore Comesee me, or I've been giving her
everything and now she's leftme for some other guy.
I can explain to you why shedid that or why that she's lost
respect for you.
I can explain that to come seeme, and we do these about once
(20:37):
every two or three months.
One of these men's things, andif you want to find out about
how to do that, you go tomarriagehelpercom slash, call
that C-A-L-L and you come to theworkshop.
Now, unless something badhappens, I'm going to be there.
I'm asking you please come seeme so we can help you if you're
(20:57):
in either one of those twothings, because there are ways
to turn it around and save themarriage, even if she now
believes that she's madly inlove with someone else, or even
if she says she can neverforgive you or that she can
never love you.
We have seen those miraculousturnarounds again and again and
again.
So please come see me.
Marriagehelpercom slash call.
(21:20):
Ask for the men-only workshop.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the other interestingthings that we see here is that,
of all of the percentages sofar, the group, the demographic
that has the lowest satisfactionrate is Gen X.
So that's the 37 to 55 agerange.
Why do you think that is?
(21:44):
They're the least likely to beset, or they're the least likely
to be very satisfied.
The Gen X generation.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I don't know, but you're asking my opinion.
Okay, Him of the ages again 37to 55.
You see, my generation, I'm inthe boomer generation.
My generation tend to try tomake everything wonderful for
the intergeneration thatfollowed us.
Like, typically, we had to workour way up from from nowhere,
(22:14):
all right, and I mean some of usinherited a lot of money, but
not not.
I, my brothers and I startedwith nothing and he started
businesses and et cetera, etcetera, and so we tended to make
things too easy for our kids.
Therefore, I think that some ofthe Gen X has actually come
along thinking everything shouldbe easy.
(22:34):
And marriage is not easy.
Now, this is just my opinion.
I don't have any research onthis.
Marriage is not easy and Idon't think they were prepared
for.
You have to work because of ofwhat we thinking.
You're going to have a betterchildhood than I did get for
them.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think also it's the thick of hard parenting.
So teenage parenting at thoseages your kids are more likely
to be adolescent to teenagers,to empty nesters, those ages
your kids are more likely to beadolescent to teenagers, to
empty nesters.
So it's kind of covering thatgamut of that family life cycle
as well.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, I saw a cool thing about Ben Affleck the
other day.
He's the actor Ben Affleck.
I'm sure you guys have seen him.
He's a tremendous actor.
And his son came to him andsaid Dad, I found a pair of
sneakers.
They cost $6,000.
I want you to buy it for me.
And Dad said no.
And his son said to him but wehave the money.
And Aflac said no, I have themoney.
(23:38):
You're broke.
And if you want to go out thereand figure out how to earn
$6,000 and take that hard-earned$6,000 and buy those shoes,
feel free.
So he's joining the ranks ofmany people in his age group who
are saying I'm not going todestroy my children by giving
(23:58):
them everything.
They're going to have to learnhow to work for that.
Now, I realize that's a littledifferent than what we're
talking about here, but I justread that the other day and I
thought that is so cool.
And as for Kimberly, who is mydaughter, I keep telling her I
don't know why you work me todeath, because there's nothing
to inherit.
Whatever she has, she's had toearn on her own, earn her
(24:19):
husband, rob, and they've donewell.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
That is true.
We have had to earn it.
So, going down, we see the nextquestion, which is the second
and final question that we askedin the survey, which is in the
past 12 months, have youconsidered getting help for your
marriage yes, no or not sure?
Thankfully, there was not alarge amount of people that said
not sure, but the vast majorityof all of the people who
(24:43):
answered said no.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Don't need it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Eight and a half out of 10 people said no, even when
they were very frustrated,somewhat frustrated, neutral
about their marriage andinteresting.
I find this interesting churchstatus has a difference.
So people were half as likelyto consider getting help for
their marriage if they werechurched versus unchurched,
(25:09):
which you pointed out.
But they have less frustration,they're more satisfied if they
are practicing Christians.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Now, if I'm looking at this thing, the people who
have considered are these peoplewho have considered marriage
counseling?
Is that what this chart is overhere?
And so it says that 50% offrustrated people have?
Is that correct?
And is that under maritalsatisfaction?
No, I'm missing.
I can't understand that chart.
(25:40):
Explain that to me please.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, so it's breaking it down by different
demographics.
So, white adults are the leastlikely, according to the
ethnicity, to consider gettingany help for their marriage.
Boomers are the least likely oftheir generation to consider
getting marriage help, whichmakes sense.
Millennials would be the mostlikely, which also makes sense.
People who have children under18 are more likely to consider
(26:06):
it based versus no children.
So this is breaking down the 14percent the red 14 percent.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
OK, that's what confused me there.
Thank you, yes, I do have anearned doctorate from University
of Sydney I actually do whichis a very prestigious university
, so I hope they don't see this.
They may take it back.
You couldn't understand thatsimple.
So the 14% who would considerit?
This is how that breaks downthe largest group, then of
course, would be the frustrated.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Right, the people who are frustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
But 84% won't consider it at all.
That's right.
How often?
You've quoted this many times?
According to the Altman'sresearch, how long does it take
before people decide to get help?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Seven years.
Seven years Of being frustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And then finally will decide to seek help.
Now, why would people wait solong?
Well, there might be ego like Ican fix this, I don't need
anybody else to help me.
We hear men say that a lot, Ican fix this, I don't need
anybody's help.
Well, if that's the case, thenforget about going to the doctor
or the dentist or anybody else.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
There are things sometimes we face, but men don't
do that either.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
You are hitting the nail on the head.
Men don't go to the dentist,they don't go to the doctor and
they don't get help for theirmarriage.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Hmm, I stand corrected.
Now I do, but of course I'vehad prostate cancer so I do
those things.
But I'm just thinking right now.
I missed my last dentalappointment and haven't made
another one.
So I guess you're right aboutthat.
(27:43):
So, yes, I yield to your point.
But here's another one, andthat's that so many counselors
have gotten such bad reputationsthat the whole field suffers
Like lawyers make jokes aboutthat all the time, how that a
bad lawyer, the whole profession, winds up with bad reputations,
(28:05):
and that can happen withcounseling as well.
I want to tell you that thereare some excellent counselors
out there.
They're amazing.
They're really, really good atwhat they do.
But if I were you and I weregoing to receive counseling for
my marriage, I would ask thecounselor, the therapist, are
you going to use me as theclient, my spouse as a client,
or the marriage as the client?
(28:26):
And if they say, I don't knowwhat you mean by that, just go
right on down the street andfind somebody else.
You want one that will make themarriage to be the client.
So there's some really goodones out there.
Unfortunately, like in everyother profession, some are
mediocre and some are terrible,and they can actually do more
damage, and we have heard somany stories about that.
(28:47):
And so if you're afraid ofgoing to marriage counseling
because you've heard so many badstories about how they'll wind
up splitting you up.
Come see us.
We will do everything we can tohelp you fix your marriage.
We won't pressure you, we won'ttwist your arm, we don't preach
at you, we don't try to makeyou feel guilty.
We work through an educationalprocess, but we always see the
(29:09):
marriage as the client, and sowe try to help the husband and
wife figure out how to do thosethings.
And another thing if your spouseis hesitant, like they're not
going to see a marriagecounselor because they'll have
to go once a week for the nextsix months, you can come see us
for three days.
Three days and after three daysyou'll have a pretty good idea
about what you're going to dowith your marriage.
(29:29):
And if you need more help, wehave coaches you can talk to on
the phone so you don't have togo somewhere to see a marriage
counselor.
Now, if you have a goodmarriage counselor, one that's
really effective and sees themarriage as a client, don't
leave them.
Stay with them.
Thank God you found somebodygood and hang in there with them
because it'll be awesome worktheir way to go.
We never try to take peopleaway from their counselors and
(29:53):
therapists.
That's unethical.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
But we also, at the same time say we will help you
so overall, why do you thinkthat, according to barna's group
, the, or at least the, thesample that they have access to,
that practicing Christians havethe most satisfying marriages?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I think, because they believe they're supposed to.
Therefore, a lot of them Idon't know what percentage it
would be, but at least some ofthem, let me say it that way are
going to report that they'revery satisfied because of the
fact it is supposed to be thatway, but also, at the same time,
when two people share beliefsand values, where it's genuine,
(30:36):
where they really share thosebeliefs and values, I think they
are much happier, much moresatisfied.
And so I would say some ofthose people are telling the
absolute truth because theytruly do share their beliefs and
values and therefore, as aresult of that, their marriages
are extremely satisfying.
And then there are some I don'tknow if that's 2% or what there
(30:56):
are some of them that aresaying what they think they're
supposed to say or how thingsare supposed to be in their mind
.
But do I believe that a couplethat goes to church together or
home church together, or atleast studies and prays together
, will have a more satisfiedmarriage?
Yeah, Particularly, if theirprayers aren't rituals like now
I lay me down to sleep, I prayto the Lord my soul to keep that
(31:19):
kind of thing, but real, openand honest prayers.
If you're being open and honest.
When you're praying with eachother, you're becoming very
transparent to God and to eachother and we teach the power of
transparency in developingintimacy in a marriage and
acceptance in a marriage, andacceptance is the key to love.
(31:40):
So practicing Christians whoare really doing those kinds of
things, not just going to churchtogether sitting with each
other on a pew, doesn't reallymake that much difference as to
how spiritual you are.
It can, but it's not.
The biggest deal.
It's whether you're prayingtogether, studying together,
opening up, talking to eachother together, discussing
scripture together all thosekinds of things.
(32:01):
Couples that do that, yeah, I'mconvinced those couples really
do have the best marriages.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I don't know about you, but there's a difference
between seeing a couple whotheir whole life has said
everything's been great, wherewe've always been very satisfied
, versus the couple that's gonethrough the trial, the
tribulation, the affair, thecrisis and now are saying we're
very satisfied.
I feel like I can trust thatyes, absolutely.
(32:31):
I don't trust this one.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Well, yes, you can, but not to the degree you're
going to trust it after they'vebeen to the other.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Maybe a light level of trust there but over there a
much deeper level of trust,because it's like it's been
proven Right.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
A few years ago, a marriage counselor said
something to me after all thestuff that you know, when I
divorced Alice, left her foranother woman finally came back.
Alice, took me back, remarriedme, we had you, as well as
children we already had, etc.
Etc.
Years after that because of thefact that sometimes I joke
around a lot and those kinds ofthings she said if you're not
careful, your wife's going toleave you.
And I started laughing and shesaid you're insulting me.
(33:12):
What's so funny?
I said I don't mean to insultyou, but if there's anybody on
the planet that knows his wifeloves him completely and is not
going to leave me unlesssomething terrible, terrible
happens, it is.
I.
My wife and my children love methat much and I trust that love
and they trust me, which is whyI won't ever do all that crappy
(33:33):
stuff again.
So, yes, you're right, itbuilds a deeper level of trust,
without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Well, those are, those are our results.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, now we'll get a call from Barna telling us that
we have corrupted your wholesurvey.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
We could give them some feedback on how to optimize
it better next time.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They're a well-known organization.
Nothing against Barna.
They're very good at what theydo.
We just think we could havedone that survey better, but not
because we're better andsmarter, but because we work in
this field directly andtherefore we know a lot more
about it.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, for sure.
We always love to help you anyway.
We can Check out those freeresources that we talked about.
Book a call with someone on ourteam.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And until next time, come see me, please, and there's
always hope.
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